Flash Is Responsible for the Internet's Most Creative Era(vice.com)
vice.com
Flash Is Responsible for the Internet's Most Creative Era
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/d3awk7/flash-is-responsible-for-the-internets-most-creative-era
440 comments
Man - DragonFable & MechQuest were great fun. I still think of Sir Valence and the various knights with punny names!
I hope between godot, procreate 5, and open source flash runners, long term Flash will be properly succeeded; for now it appears we have regressed unless you pay Adobe for a CC subscription.
I hope between godot, procreate 5, and open source flash runners, long term Flash will be properly succeeded; for now it appears we have regressed unless you pay Adobe for a CC subscription.
Thanks for the great games! Remember playing AQ Original many moons ago. Hard to believe how much time has passed.
Edit: Out of curiosity, did you ever evaluate OpenFL/Haxe as a migration path?
Edit: Out of curiosity, did you ever evaluate OpenFL/Haxe as a migration path?
During 1999-2000, I helped hundreds of people learn how to use Flash. I was, looking back now, probably one of the top experts on Flash 4 at the time in the world. The twist - I was a 15 year old living in a tiny African country called Lesotho.
Lesotho is pretty isolated from the world. Nobody even knows it exists. Living there, Silicon Valley might as well be on Mars.
However, we used to get issues of Wired Magazine from South Africa, and these came with shareware CDs. These CDs included 30-day trial editions of Macromedia Flash.
Flash was amazing at the time. Being able to create interactive animations blew my mind. I learned Flash 4 completely inside and out. I knew every single feature, every single quirk.
Of course living in Lesotho, there was nothing I could really do with all this. Most people around me didn't even know how to use computers. Flash was several layers of abstraction away from that.
So I used to spend all my time on Yahoo Chat's Web Design chat rooms. Mainly hanging out with nerds in the US. We used to have countless people drop by in the rooms every day asking questions about Flash. Mainly people working for web design agencies in the US. I was the resident Flash expert. Flash questions always were referred to me.
In the 2000s Flash rightly got a lot of flak. I'm not sad it's gone. But it was really something special, especially in the late 90s.
Lesotho is pretty isolated from the world. Nobody even knows it exists. Living there, Silicon Valley might as well be on Mars.
However, we used to get issues of Wired Magazine from South Africa, and these came with shareware CDs. These CDs included 30-day trial editions of Macromedia Flash.
Flash was amazing at the time. Being able to create interactive animations blew my mind. I learned Flash 4 completely inside and out. I knew every single feature, every single quirk.
Of course living in Lesotho, there was nothing I could really do with all this. Most people around me didn't even know how to use computers. Flash was several layers of abstraction away from that.
So I used to spend all my time on Yahoo Chat's Web Design chat rooms. Mainly hanging out with nerds in the US. We used to have countless people drop by in the rooms every day asking questions about Flash. Mainly people working for web design agencies in the US. I was the resident Flash expert. Flash questions always were referred to me.
In the 2000s Flash rightly got a lot of flak. I'm not sad it's gone. But it was really something special, especially in the late 90s.
Flash is the reason why I'm a programmer today. It was Flash which kindled my interest in computers and made sure I spent hours playing around with it and then other aspects of computers.
That era of discovery and expression was something special.
That era of discovery and expression was something special.
I had a similar experience. I learned ActionScript pretty early on (around age age 16 or so) because it was easier to get something visual built than any other thing I had used, while still feeling like "real" programming.
AS3 is actually quite a pleasant language to work in, and while I'm glad that I don't need to muck with Flash plugins anymore, I do miss how easy it was to get something built when I was just bored and wanted to make a new toy.
For me, nothing has really come along to replace Flash in regards to the "tangible" feelings you get. JS and WebGL and Canvas and whatnot are great, and definitely lead to better results in regards to the user experience, but I feel that they're a lot harder to "pick up and play".
AS3 is actually quite a pleasant language to work in, and while I'm glad that I don't need to muck with Flash plugins anymore, I do miss how easy it was to get something built when I was just bored and wanted to make a new toy.
For me, nothing has really come along to replace Flash in regards to the "tangible" feelings you get. JS and WebGL and Canvas and whatnot are great, and definitely lead to better results in regards to the user experience, but I feel that they're a lot harder to "pick up and play".
Agreed! The visual feedback was spot on in flash.
Also, it was really easy to reverse engineer a flash file. One could just import the .fla file into flash and see a lot of stuff that was going behind the scene - assets and action scripts were easily available to explore. This was my favourite way to get better at flash; I would go to templatemonster.com and browse through all the cool flash websites they had, then navigate to the temp folder of IE and then copy paste all the .fla files into my own personal folder for later dissection.
Also, it was really easy to reverse engineer a flash file. One could just import the .fla file into flash and see a lot of stuff that was going behind the scene - assets and action scripts were easily available to explore. This was my favourite way to get better at flash; I would go to templatemonster.com and browse through all the cool flash websites they had, then navigate to the temp folder of IE and then copy paste all the .fla files into my own personal folder for later dissection.
Same here. Neil Cicierega and Weebl's crazy antics are what got me interested in basic programing way back when I was 12-13. From there I started doing more and more complicated things in Actionscript. Sure I didn't learn any theory and produced awful code -- but I got a conceptual idea of programming that has helped me feel comfortable tackling new languages today.
Making a dance video to Monty Python's "Camelot" song is what made me learn about sprite sheets and motion techniques. It encouraged me to start googling different camera angles to figure out how to frame my shots.
That's why I love seeing kids playing with Minecraft, as it contains many of the same elements that I was playing with when I was a kid. Now if we could only get them into Dwarf Fortress, THEN we'd be talking. :) Speaking of which, that steam launch is supposed to be soon.
Making a dance video to Monty Python's "Camelot" song is what made me learn about sprite sheets and motion techniques. It encouraged me to start googling different camera angles to figure out how to frame my shots.
That's why I love seeing kids playing with Minecraft, as it contains many of the same elements that I was playing with when I was a kid. Now if we could only get them into Dwarf Fortress, THEN we'd be talking. :) Speaking of which, that steam launch is supposed to be soon.
Flash is also what got me into programming. I started by making incredibly shitty knockoffs of stick figure videos on YouTube in flash mx 2004, then realized it also had the power to make games, and it went from there
It was so special.
It was just the right mix of relative simplicity and power.
No wonder that all the creatives flocked to flash.
It was just the right mix of relative simplicity and power.
No wonder that all the creatives flocked to flash.
Curious and feel free to ignore, what was your screenname on the yahoo web design chat rooms? I also hung around there a lot around that time using one of those embarrassing screennames made by teens and their favourite songs (renegade_master)
I was one of the people constantly wishing flash would die. Although I am happy the open web won that battle, I was always hoping and am sad that nothing based on open standards came to replace it.
I was one of the people constantly wishing flash would die. Although I am happy the open web won that battle, I was always hoping and am sad that nothing based on open standards came to replace it.
Lol, hey renegade_master_uk! I was ashido (and various permutations of that name) in those rooms. I jumped ship from server-side to go work on Flash applications in the early 2000s, then back to JS near Flash 9/10 (when the writing was on the wall), then back again to server-side.
You could've used the screen name "dale_4_damager" instead ;)
There is still a huge amount of amazing content in flash, tons of games and movies on sites like newgrounds.
The older ones are fully self contained games, some of which are amazing, in a single swf file that works in all major operating systems (The newer ones started side loading data from servers though.)
I hope there will always remain ways to play those.
The older ones are fully self contained games, some of which are amazing, in a single swf file that works in all major operating systems (The newer ones started side loading data from servers though.)
I hope there will always remain ways to play those.
Great story, all that isolation from Silicon Valley probably helped you focus on your craft and didn’t provide distractions.
That's exactly the spirit! The internet makes it so easy for "poorer" countries to level up damn quickly! Spread the word there! <3
So what are you doing these days?
I moved to Mars! My family immigrated to North America soon after and I studied and worked in tech ever since.
From his HN profile: `Currently building retail tech at dheo.com`
Was there a "computing hotspot" where you were at the time? I think with all the school issues (and university issues) in South Africa it would be cool to have sort of (physical) computing libraries with Raspberry Pis or something like that–a sort of enabling environment where independent kids would at least have the resources necessary to build an eventual career for themselves (perhaps unwittingly at first).
Just a nit, (the Kingdom of) Lesotho is a separate country from South Africa, although it's landlocked by South Africa.
I am South African so yes, I don't have any imperial ambitions in that regard. But having said that, Lesotho is rather dependant on South Africa (as OP hints). My question was really whether he was an outlier or whether his friends or immediate environment had a lot of (aspiring) coders.
In Southern Africa in general there was probably < 5% internet penetration back then.
In Southern Africa in general there was probably < 5% internet penetration back then.
I spent 3 nights at Lushoto last week. Nice place!
Where are all the creatives flocking to nowdays? HTML5?
Tiled. We’ve built a truly no-code/no-new-design-tool interactive experience builder. Https://Tiled.co
What people don’t often realize with flash was that the output was a file. Tiled is taking a similar approach in that we are “documentizing” interactive experiences. We call the output a microapp (think .swf) and these can be experienced as an embedded experience (both native and browser-based), offline/online, through their app or other platforms.
What people don’t often realize with flash was that the output was a file. Tiled is taking a similar approach in that we are “documentizing” interactive experiences. We call the output a microapp (think .swf) and these can be experienced as an embedded experience (both native and browser-based), offline/online, through their app or other platforms.
I had a formative experience with Flash as a middle schooler. I loved Albino Blacksheep, Newgrounds, etc. I thought the videos were hilarious and the stick-figure-style animation was approachable. So I acquired Flash, and I was blown away by how easy it was to create these silly animations. Automatic tweening was a miracle to me.
Since then I've done a lot of video editing with different tools, but I still think back to Macromedia Flash and how I, a child with no ability to code and no knowledge of HTML or Web tech, was able to make my imagination come to life on the screen.
I believe it's that powerful experience for novices that we're missing. I'm not sure how we should get it back.
(edit: phrasing)
Since then I've done a lot of video editing with different tools, but I still think back to Macromedia Flash and how I, a child with no ability to code and no knowledge of HTML or Web tech, was able to make my imagination come to life on the screen.
I believe it's that powerful experience for novices that we're missing. I'm not sure how we should get it back.
(edit: phrasing)
I think the essential thing about this era is a gradual cultural rediscovery of ownership. We've just been through a very lengthy race to the bottom for all sorts of information - pretty much anything ephemeral and disposable is free or extremely cheap, and then heavily locked down to protect property rights. And it's built a kind of event horizon to culture where all the things pressed up closest to the digital universe just disappear into a little footnote on a wiki page saying "yes, this happened". Memes, blog posts, videos, games, etc.
There is a game product called "Fortnite", and it's just had a huge in-game event, so it's clearly here, alive and well, but you'll never again be able to experience Fortnite as it was 24 hours ago - ever.
And yet future culture is, as Alan Kay puts it, "the past and the present". It's our reaction to that hole, where nothing really builds on anything else, that, in turn, is motivating interest in products with longer time horizons, longer stories and histories to them.
An obvious metaphor for this is video games vs pinball:
* Fundamentally digital vs fundamentally analog
* Mostly design & marketing vs mostly manufacturing
* Trivially cloned vs scarce, unique
* Black-box artifact vs maintainable assembly
* Perpetually caught in the breathless hype cycle of tech, vs increasingly existing outside of that cycle
Pinball's days as part of the traditional amusement business ended with the 1990's, but it's found a resurgence of interest in the home market as a kind of collectable furniture - something to put in a rec room or a basement arcade, that retains decent trade value if maintained. A whole array of small manufacturers have appeared this decade to serve that market. It's much easier to understand a collector's market for it being sustained 30 years out, versus video game collecting, in which any product with a modicum of popularity will have had its primary content either already preserved through piracy(if emulated), or else impossible to reproduce(if a service). It's a much stronger version of interest in vinyl records or dead-tree books taking precedent over streaming music and e-books.
Because digital media has so little physical value, it is beholden to be entirely marketing driven, front-to-back, and to treat you as either a product marketer or as the product, and sometimes both. The true form of the medium remains always hidden behind the UI. Even your personal work, done on systems you wholly control, just disappears into a collection of files, where it is easily forgotten.
And in that sense I think we are not really asking, "Where is Flash? Where is Hypercard? Where is BASIC?" - because in different eras each of those tools did the kinds of things we wanted and expected from a beginner's tool - so much as we are asking, "Where is the actual medium? Where can I do work and preserve the original source material? Where can I send a kid to learn to play with software and not have it all break six months later, rendering the learning useless? How can I curate software when nobody can make any promises?" Tech continues its warfare for a platform monopoly, and so on this front we keep starting from zero, over and over. It's not hugely different from the space we've arrived at in professional software development, where dependency hell and code rot is an ever-increasing concern for all codebases.
There is a game product called "Fortnite", and it's just had a huge in-game event, so it's clearly here, alive and well, but you'll never again be able to experience Fortnite as it was 24 hours ago - ever.
And yet future culture is, as Alan Kay puts it, "the past and the present". It's our reaction to that hole, where nothing really builds on anything else, that, in turn, is motivating interest in products with longer time horizons, longer stories and histories to them.
An obvious metaphor for this is video games vs pinball:
* Fundamentally digital vs fundamentally analog
* Mostly design & marketing vs mostly manufacturing
* Trivially cloned vs scarce, unique
* Black-box artifact vs maintainable assembly
* Perpetually caught in the breathless hype cycle of tech, vs increasingly existing outside of that cycle
Pinball's days as part of the traditional amusement business ended with the 1990's, but it's found a resurgence of interest in the home market as a kind of collectable furniture - something to put in a rec room or a basement arcade, that retains decent trade value if maintained. A whole array of small manufacturers have appeared this decade to serve that market. It's much easier to understand a collector's market for it being sustained 30 years out, versus video game collecting, in which any product with a modicum of popularity will have had its primary content either already preserved through piracy(if emulated), or else impossible to reproduce(if a service). It's a much stronger version of interest in vinyl records or dead-tree books taking precedent over streaming music and e-books.
Because digital media has so little physical value, it is beholden to be entirely marketing driven, front-to-back, and to treat you as either a product marketer or as the product, and sometimes both. The true form of the medium remains always hidden behind the UI. Even your personal work, done on systems you wholly control, just disappears into a collection of files, where it is easily forgotten.
And in that sense I think we are not really asking, "Where is Flash? Where is Hypercard? Where is BASIC?" - because in different eras each of those tools did the kinds of things we wanted and expected from a beginner's tool - so much as we are asking, "Where is the actual medium? Where can I do work and preserve the original source material? Where can I send a kid to learn to play with software and not have it all break six months later, rendering the learning useless? How can I curate software when nobody can make any promises?" Tech continues its warfare for a platform monopoly, and so on this front we keep starting from zero, over and over. It's not hugely different from the space we've arrived at in professional software development, where dependency hell and code rot is an ever-increasing concern for all codebases.
> you'll never again be able to experience Fortnite as it was 24 hours ago - ever.
Isn't that true of all one-time events, not just digital ones? I'll never be able to attend a Beatles concert or see "The Empire Strikes Back" on opening night or be celebrating on the streets of New York City on V-E Day.
Isn't that true of all one-time events, not just digital ones? I'll never be able to attend a Beatles concert or see "The Empire Strikes Back" on opening night or be celebrating on the streets of New York City on V-E Day.
It’s more that only a few years ago, the same experience could have been revisited - the technology and the means exist - but business reasons say otherwise.
In this case, it’s the Fortnite world.
If Fortnite were a game in the 1990s-2000s, the data (map, world, characters) would be on a CD or DVD and the multiplayer server would also be included on the CD: the community runs its own servers. If the developers release a huge new update - including over digital distribution - users still have the original discs and server software, thus if they want to relive “Fortnite 1997, v1.0’ they can - just reinstall it from the original media.
With the iOS App Store we used to be able to make versioned backups of the IPA files and restore them using desktop iTunes so if an over-the-air update for... say, Angry Birds, added an obnoxious amount of pay-to-win functionality then we had the choice to downgrade before things went to shit.
Now, we can’t do that. This is why I don’t buy mobile games anymore: I have no guarantees about my ability to keep what I paid for.
In this case, it’s the Fortnite world.
If Fortnite were a game in the 1990s-2000s, the data (map, world, characters) would be on a CD or DVD and the multiplayer server would also be included on the CD: the community runs its own servers. If the developers release a huge new update - including over digital distribution - users still have the original discs and server software, thus if they want to relive “Fortnite 1997, v1.0’ they can - just reinstall it from the original media.
With the iOS App Store we used to be able to make versioned backups of the IPA files and restore them using desktop iTunes so if an over-the-air update for... say, Angry Birds, added an obnoxious amount of pay-to-win functionality then we had the choice to downgrade before things went to shit.
Now, we can’t do that. This is why I don’t buy mobile games anymore: I have no guarantees about my ability to keep what I paid for.
Angry birds was such a disappointment... I bought it, thought it was a neat game, and well worth the $2.
A few years later I wanted to show it to my kids, and the game I bought had turned into an abomination of ads, in-app-purchases, and dark patterns, and there was no way to get back the charming little game that I originally bought...
A few years later I wanted to show it to my kids, and the game I bought had turned into an abomination of ads, in-app-purchases, and dark patterns, and there was no way to get back the charming little game that I originally bought...
I had the same experience showing my daughter Cut the Rope.
Wow, yeah so many dark patterns in kids games, lots of games that look cool and then you install them and have to watch a half minute ad for another video game every time you die. I remember renting NES games over the weekends and so I had to choose between a limited number of choices. The seemingly infinite number of games that exist now via the android play store is crazy but most of them are completely bad and would never get approved from any curatorial perspective yet they make money for the platform and the developer (evidently).
[deleted]
The Longest Journey (the game) on iOS :(
The entire map of Fortnite was removed, literally sucked into a virtual black hole. The game world is being rebooted/remade.
The same could have been said about World of Warcraft, but here we are with WoW Classic.
Digital experiences can be recreated, especially if motivated by profit. What won't be created are some of those moments that were unforeseen consequences (e.g. the Seed of Corruption exploit in WoW)
Digital experiences can be recreated, especially if motivated by profit. What won't be created are some of those moments that were unforeseen consequences (e.g. the Seed of Corruption exploit in WoW)
Also, all of these gaming events are recorded for later viewing. I can experience Fortnite EXACTLY as it was when the event took place.
You can experience a recording of it (and even those may be taken down) but you cannot experience the game itself.
I fully agree with you, but anyway an online game cannot be repeated once the community has moved on. For example my son says that fifa, a soccer game that gets a new version every year is not the same after one year: the whole community has moved on the next version and thus you'll be playing alone to the preceding version.
> Where can I send a kid to learn to play with software and not have it all break six months later, rendering the learning useless?
If you had a Pentium 1 PC, would you not still be able to run DOS and BASIC on it? Software "breaking" only happens if you let it - you can still use Windows 95, or XP, and run all those old programs that no longer work. If you have a copy of Flash 4 you can still run that on supported hardware, make media using it, and probably still have people with modern Flash installations be able to play it back?
The difference between the pinball machine and video game is not so wide a chasm. The vogue of pinball came and went, and now it is a small community hobby. Hobbies come and go - just look at the resurgence in Dungeons and Dragons the last 10 years adjacent to a huge decline in "AAA" PC game RPGs.
In the same light, while the Fortnite gamer might never be able to re-experience the event that just passed, there are thousands playing Doom maps written in the mid 90s today on engines refined through decades of hobbyist volunteer work to provide features not even often seen in modern titles. And simultaneously there are new Doom maps being made all the time, entire games (look up the Adventures of Square) made with its engine, etc. That technology is now over 25 years "obsolete" but lives on through its community.
You touch on it - but it really does matter if you own it. All these transient experiences being offered as a moment of engagement by corporations all of which are held under lock and key and never see a bidirectional creative process between maker and consumer are all vapid and empty. The digital experiences that endure are those that go both ways, and that everyone involved can lay claim to and participate in.
Modern video games are themeparks, but the tooling available through projects like GZDoom, OpenMW, Godot, etc are sandboxes for creativity that no corporation can take away. This is why the free software movement even began, and why it has only gained relevance as technology has permeated society and culture.
But that concept extends beyond just video games - Blender makes its open movies, there are repositories and communities around free music, art, etc. Communities built around shared worlds all licensed permissively to encourage participation and collaboration in opposition to the common proprietary reality of creative products being weaponized against their own fans through copyright to reject participation. You just have to look for them - they don't have the billions in advertising to permeate your every waking second of consumptive behavior.
If you had a Pentium 1 PC, would you not still be able to run DOS and BASIC on it? Software "breaking" only happens if you let it - you can still use Windows 95, or XP, and run all those old programs that no longer work. If you have a copy of Flash 4 you can still run that on supported hardware, make media using it, and probably still have people with modern Flash installations be able to play it back?
The difference between the pinball machine and video game is not so wide a chasm. The vogue of pinball came and went, and now it is a small community hobby. Hobbies come and go - just look at the resurgence in Dungeons and Dragons the last 10 years adjacent to a huge decline in "AAA" PC game RPGs.
In the same light, while the Fortnite gamer might never be able to re-experience the event that just passed, there are thousands playing Doom maps written in the mid 90s today on engines refined through decades of hobbyist volunteer work to provide features not even often seen in modern titles. And simultaneously there are new Doom maps being made all the time, entire games (look up the Adventures of Square) made with its engine, etc. That technology is now over 25 years "obsolete" but lives on through its community.
You touch on it - but it really does matter if you own it. All these transient experiences being offered as a moment of engagement by corporations all of which are held under lock and key and never see a bidirectional creative process between maker and consumer are all vapid and empty. The digital experiences that endure are those that go both ways, and that everyone involved can lay claim to and participate in.
Modern video games are themeparks, but the tooling available through projects like GZDoom, OpenMW, Godot, etc are sandboxes for creativity that no corporation can take away. This is why the free software movement even began, and why it has only gained relevance as technology has permeated society and culture.
But that concept extends beyond just video games - Blender makes its open movies, there are repositories and communities around free music, art, etc. Communities built around shared worlds all licensed permissively to encourage participation and collaboration in opposition to the common proprietary reality of creative products being weaponized against their own fans through copyright to reject participation. You just have to look for them - they don't have the billions in advertising to permeate your every waking second of consumptive behavior.
You brought up Doom, I'm still mapping for Quake. Quake and Doom are awesome because they are indeed sandboxes with open source code that you can play with at will. Also, these older games are quite a bit less complicated to make content for than some of the newer engines like UE4.
> Software "breaking" only happens if you let it
I don't think this is realistically true in the age of cloud services and forced, automatic updates.
Maybe it is if you painstakingly stick to decades-old software or FOSS - but this will mean you're missing out on a lot of progress made in modern software.
(edit:)
> ...and probably still have people with modern Flash installations be able to play it back?
Even if you got Flash running on your old PC, this is where things would break. Browsers deliberately increase the friction and technical expertise needed to enable Flash content, with the openly stated goal to drop Flash support completely in the mid-to-near future.
Learning Flash might still be a fun experience if you can keep it on the PC it's produced - but if you want your kid to pass their movies on to anyone else, Flash is nowadays a dead-end.
I agree though with the Doom thing. My suspicion is that in 20 years, many of today's games will be forgotten but people will likely still play FFIV on emulator - not because some artistic quality were better but simply because you can.
I don't think this is realistically true in the age of cloud services and forced, automatic updates.
Maybe it is if you painstakingly stick to decades-old software or FOSS - but this will mean you're missing out on a lot of progress made in modern software.
(edit:)
> ...and probably still have people with modern Flash installations be able to play it back?
Even if you got Flash running on your old PC, this is where things would break. Browsers deliberately increase the friction and technical expertise needed to enable Flash content, with the openly stated goal to drop Flash support completely in the mid-to-near future.
Learning Flash might still be a fun experience if you can keep it on the PC it's produced - but if you want your kid to pass their movies on to anyone else, Flash is nowadays a dead-end.
I agree though with the Doom thing. My suspicion is that in 20 years, many of today's games will be forgotten but people will likely still play FFIV on emulator - not because some artistic quality were better but simply because you can.
> My suspicion is that in 20 years, many of today's games will be forgotten but people will likely still play FFIV on emulator - not because some artistic quality were better but simply because you can.
Inn 20 years, emulators will probably progress enough that the (non-server-based) games people still care about will be playable -- anything where there's no server, or the server is just a DRM check and all the gameplay happens clientside. Some of the servers will probably be replicable locally for single-player or small-group play, too; I think there's already reverse-engineered server emulation for some online-multiplayer DS games, some of it even having been made before the official servers went offline.
Inn 20 years, emulators will probably progress enough that the (non-server-based) games people still care about will be playable -- anything where there's no server, or the server is just a DRM check and all the gameplay happens clientside. Some of the servers will probably be replicable locally for single-player or small-group play, too; I think there's already reverse-engineered server emulation for some online-multiplayer DS games, some of it even having been made before the official servers went offline.
Godot, Doom, and Blender are all great but none have the level of approachability that Hypercard and Flash had for the amateur. They allow determined creators to soar, but they aren't enabling people who would not otherwise be creative to make interactive media in the same way. The 2d/3d gulf is a huge one to cross, and that may be the main issue. There was also something very wyswyg about both flash and hypercard-though Godot definitely approaches that. It's just hitting it's stride popularity-wise, so I guess where people take it remains to be seen.
What a lovely, lyrical comment that inspires engagement. Let me start with a question, what do you mean by "things pressed up closest":
>culture where all the things pressed up closest to the digital universe just disappear into a little footnote on a wiki page saying "yes, this happened". Memes, blog posts, videos, games, etc.
Is this just a fancy way of saying "digital things that are very cheap/free to distribute"? If that's true, then I'd argue that digital things have an outsized impact in people's lives, even more than physical things sometimes. After all, whats more important to you, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom or the car you're currently driving?
And since that's the case, what's wrong with charging money for data that was expensive to make, even if it's super cheap to distribute? I feel like that's far more honest than giving away free entertainment data that's been marred by an ad stream.
I think the thing that's pressed up closest is a briefly filled container of code (the browser), that briefly redirects a server thread in front of your eyes. You have a chance to affect it's future course. But there is no ownership at all, not even of the blob that corresponds to the runtime image.
I think its funny that open-source software has created a world where software is even more proprietary than ever - not even the binaries every reach your machine! In that world, distributing binaries only doesn't really seam so bad!
>culture where all the things pressed up closest to the digital universe just disappear into a little footnote on a wiki page saying "yes, this happened". Memes, blog posts, videos, games, etc.
Is this just a fancy way of saying "digital things that are very cheap/free to distribute"? If that's true, then I'd argue that digital things have an outsized impact in people's lives, even more than physical things sometimes. After all, whats more important to you, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom or the car you're currently driving?
And since that's the case, what's wrong with charging money for data that was expensive to make, even if it's super cheap to distribute? I feel like that's far more honest than giving away free entertainment data that's been marred by an ad stream.
I think the thing that's pressed up closest is a briefly filled container of code (the browser), that briefly redirects a server thread in front of your eyes. You have a chance to affect it's future course. But there is no ownership at all, not even of the blob that corresponds to the runtime image.
I think its funny that open-source software has created a world where software is even more proprietary than ever - not even the binaries every reach your machine! In that world, distributing binaries only doesn't really seam so bad!
Not bad work for a closed-source platform, enabling all that ownership.
Um, it's possible to play simulated pinball games that work just like the real ones except the "table" is a huge-ass monitor. Recreations of classic tables, like Addams Family are available as well as entirely new tables like Portal that do things no physical pinball table can do.
Sure, it's not like playing the real thing. Neither, in most cases, are emulated video games.
Sure, it's not like playing the real thing. Neither, in most cases, are emulated video games.
Disclaimer: I'm an old git.
I think you have deftly described a bigger problem, as the whole industry gets more and more sophisticated and complex. The barrier for entry is so high now that I think it stifles young people's interest too quickly.
The great thing about Flash was the developer tool. Part animation studio, part simple programming IDE. It was a great balance.
Maybe there is a place in the market for framework to implement a flash-a-like in a HTML5 Canvas?
I think you have deftly described a bigger problem, as the whole industry gets more and more sophisticated and complex. The barrier for entry is so high now that I think it stifles young people's interest too quickly.
The great thing about Flash was the developer tool. Part animation studio, part simple programming IDE. It was a great balance.
Maybe there is a place in the market for framework to implement a flash-a-like in a HTML5 Canvas?
Not just young people. As in other creative arts, if the tooling is over-complex or high-friction it can simply kill the creative flow. We should aim to make things pleasant to use for experts as well as beginners. There is a great deal of philosophical resistance to this idea hiding just under the surface, driven perhaps by a sense that difficult interfaces are a test of worthiness. Consider the barrier to entry to create a 'hello world' mobile app - it seems awesomely, perversely difficult compared to the intrinsic simplicity of the task. I would argue that this is deliberate gatekeeping - if ordinary people could create content, this would threaten an awful lot of business models, including and especially the business models of people who run app stores and take a cut of the profits. Can't have the techno-serfs programming, can we?
I don't think it's gatekeeping. I think it's because experts need different tools to beginners, and have louder voices when a tool doesn't meet their needs.
Consider Ruby on Rails. It was the most beginner-friendly way to create a web app when it was popular, but the very things that made it that way - opinionated design, sacrificing speed/correctness/scale by using Ruby, "batteries included", and a cultish fanbase that drew new users to it - made it the target of justified criticism from experts who wanted flexibility, type safety, speed, lightweight design, fewer CVEs, and fewer annoying fanboys. Flash came under fire for similar things: performance issues, poor UX when used in the wrong place, constant security vulnerabilities, being a proprietary standard.
These are actually good criticisms! There's no shadowy cabal who arranged feigned outrage over flash vulnerabilities, people were genuinely upset that a proprietary piece of software was turning their browser security into a sieve and stopping screenreaders from working. The criticisms just failed to ask why it was so popular with beginners anyway.
Consider Ruby on Rails. It was the most beginner-friendly way to create a web app when it was popular, but the very things that made it that way - opinionated design, sacrificing speed/correctness/scale by using Ruby, "batteries included", and a cultish fanbase that drew new users to it - made it the target of justified criticism from experts who wanted flexibility, type safety, speed, lightweight design, fewer CVEs, and fewer annoying fanboys. Flash came under fire for similar things: performance issues, poor UX when used in the wrong place, constant security vulnerabilities, being a proprietary standard.
These are actually good criticisms! There's no shadowy cabal who arranged feigned outrage over flash vulnerabilities, people were genuinely upset that a proprietary piece of software was turning their browser security into a sieve and stopping screenreaders from working. The criticisms just failed to ask why it was so popular with beginners anyway.
I agree with much of what you say, but I disagree that RoR was "beginner friendly". It had/has a steep learning curve.
From personal experience, and from the (continuing) weekly HN "Hiring" posts that are looking for Rails devs, Rails is popular because it allows you to build an MVP for an entire product or company over a week. It gets rid of all the distractions when it comes to assembling the perfect stack and just works. It's not perfect by far, but, like Flash, it allows you to shortcut the technical work and get right to the creative work.
From personal experience, and from the (continuing) weekly HN "Hiring" posts that are looking for Rails devs, Rails is popular because it allows you to build an MVP for an entire product or company over a week. It gets rid of all the distractions when it comes to assembling the perfect stack and just works. It's not perfect by far, but, like Flash, it allows you to shortcut the technical work and get right to the creative work.
Of all of the areas where there is legitimate gatekeeping, like with the AMA and residency limits, software is one of the worst examples you could have picked.
Software is one of those spaces where there is an incredible amount of capital invested in making things easy for the lowest common denominator.
There are so many resources for people of any age and background to learn practical skills in this field. There are summer camps where 7 year old kids learn to program.
Software is one of those spaces where there is an incredible amount of capital invested in making things easy for the lowest common denominator.
There are so many resources for people of any age and background to learn practical skills in this field. There are summer camps where 7 year old kids learn to program.
Not exactly. Such camps certainly exist, but they're not for everyone. I was tinkering with Linux at 7, but only because I had a technical parent who put it on the family computer. I'd say the important part here was that I wasn't given a coding bootcamp course to go through, I just got to play. Eventually, I figured out how to use single-user to re-set the root password and play as much supertux as I wanted. This probably shaped my passion for technology and "solving puzzles" of a technical nature more than anything else.
I'd say if you really want youth interested in technology, you basically need a "montessori model" for computers. I don't believe that's likely to happen in school; you need funding, which requires measurable results. There's also too much bad stuff on the internet for schools to run that risk at that scale.
There are two rough classes into which I would break "tech guys". The first is the sort who enjoys it for what it is. Shaves yaks configuring his system, tries out new languages for the heck of it, that sort. The second has a perfectly respectable career in software, and enjoys other things when he comes home at five p.m. I'm not saying one is better or worse, but at seven years of age, you'll only have the few of the first type _really_ interested. Type two will often switch to a different toy once frustrated (i.e. upon a serious bug). You can't expect everyone to derive the same level of marginal benefit from just playing with tech.
Type twos necessarily better or worse, but we don't put kids into "plumbing boot-camp" at seven expecting them to develop life-long passions. Maybe a few will, but not many. To put it another way, you'll get a lot more kids into architecture letting them play with legos free-form than handing them a kit and saying, "Build this model by following the instructions."
I'd say if you really want youth interested in technology, you basically need a "montessori model" for computers. I don't believe that's likely to happen in school; you need funding, which requires measurable results. There's also too much bad stuff on the internet for schools to run that risk at that scale.
There are two rough classes into which I would break "tech guys". The first is the sort who enjoys it for what it is. Shaves yaks configuring his system, tries out new languages for the heck of it, that sort. The second has a perfectly respectable career in software, and enjoys other things when he comes home at five p.m. I'm not saying one is better or worse, but at seven years of age, you'll only have the few of the first type _really_ interested. Type two will often switch to a different toy once frustrated (i.e. upon a serious bug). You can't expect everyone to derive the same level of marginal benefit from just playing with tech.
Type twos necessarily better or worse, but we don't put kids into "plumbing boot-camp" at seven expecting them to develop life-long passions. Maybe a few will, but not many. To put it another way, you'll get a lot more kids into architecture letting them play with legos free-form than handing them a kit and saying, "Build this model by following the instructions."
I had similar experiences to you and definitely fit into the yak-shaving variety (or at least I did before work destroyed my soul).
There's no question to me that early exposure and encouragement makes all the difference in educating kids. I can't understand why we're not engineering experiences in all these different fields for kids to build real stuff that can eventually turn into a trade. If you're a kid, even today, and you want to learn an adult trade young, your options are still pretty much just artist or programmer.
If there was a way to start doctors or lawyers young, maybe it'd make a difference. As a kid, I knew one girl that was a hospital volunteer, and she ended up going to Africa as an adult to try and make the world a better place by helping others. People don't realize how activities in formative years really stick with kids.
Instead of giving kids meaningful work, we're raising a generation that's going to be great at self-promotion and fortnite.
There's no question to me that early exposure and encouragement makes all the difference in educating kids. I can't understand why we're not engineering experiences in all these different fields for kids to build real stuff that can eventually turn into a trade. If you're a kid, even today, and you want to learn an adult trade young, your options are still pretty much just artist or programmer.
If there was a way to start doctors or lawyers young, maybe it'd make a difference. As a kid, I knew one girl that was a hospital volunteer, and she ended up going to Africa as an adult to try and make the world a better place by helping others. People don't realize how activities in formative years really stick with kids.
Instead of giving kids meaningful work, we're raising a generation that's going to be great at self-promotion and fortnite.
There is a way to start children young to become lawyers and doctors. Lawyers need perfect English. Doctors need perfect English and biology.
Our entire school system is wrong. :) I am working on it. We force parents to go to school and that is wrong.
The key to rapid education is teaching the correct subjects. All science is functionally math. Physics is math and chemistry is math. Music is math. All written homework is functionally English. Art is functionally understanding of light and shadows, which is best taught through photography. Photography decouples ability to render (drawing) from ability to compose. Until the child is fluent at algebra and written English, teaching other subjects except for athletics relies on the child's innate talent or, more likely, their parents.
Our entire school system is wrong. :) I am working on it. We force parents to go to school and that is wrong.
The key to rapid education is teaching the correct subjects. All science is functionally math. Physics is math and chemistry is math. Music is math. All written homework is functionally English. Art is functionally understanding of light and shadows, which is best taught through photography. Photography decouples ability to render (drawing) from ability to compose. Until the child is fluent at algebra and written English, teaching other subjects except for athletics relies on the child's innate talent or, more likely, their parents.
There's _at least_ one more critical component you're missing, logic and analysis. It will also be harder to keep a pupil's attention on two subjects for half a day than on a multitude of subjects for forty-five minutes apiece. After three hours being lectured on the same subject, I would get tired even in college; how do you plan to force eight-year-olds to pay attention in such a manner?
In other words, you cannot swap all time for study of english and mathematics and expect to simply achieve twice as much in english and mathematics.
In other words, you cannot swap all time for study of english and mathematics and expect to simply achieve twice as much in english and mathematics.
That's not the plan. The plan is to give them a reason to want to learn.
Learning 45 minutes at a time is silly. It's far more effective to master one concept at a time.
Logic comes with math. I haven't fully thought it through, but my initial goal is to eliminate the need to rely on parents to do well in school.
Learning 45 minutes at a time is silly. It's far more effective to master one concept at a time.
Logic comes with math. I haven't fully thought it through, but my initial goal is to eliminate the need to rely on parents to do well in school.
I agree. But:
> The first is the sort who enjoys it for what it is. Shaves yaks configuring his system, tries out new languages for the heck of it, that sort. The second has a perfectly respectable career in software, and enjoys other things when he comes home at five p.m.
I have found out that these are not in opposition at all. In fact, workplace that holds you in 80 hours a week largely prevents trying out new tech. People dont stay long because trying out new toys. If they do, then they are being dishonest with employer, honestly. They stay long because of stress, pressure, disorganization, etc.
The conflation of the two really not logical, it does not even makes sense. Why cant you go home at 5 and "try out new languages for the heck of it" wherever you feel like? Should you even try out that new language production project? (you should not)
> The first is the sort who enjoys it for what it is. Shaves yaks configuring his system, tries out new languages for the heck of it, that sort. The second has a perfectly respectable career in software, and enjoys other things when he comes home at five p.m.
I have found out that these are not in opposition at all. In fact, workplace that holds you in 80 hours a week largely prevents trying out new tech. People dont stay long because trying out new toys. If they do, then they are being dishonest with employer, honestly. They stay long because of stress, pressure, disorganization, etc.
The conflation of the two really not logical, it does not even makes sense. Why cant you go home at 5 and "try out new languages for the heck of it" wherever you feel like? Should you even try out that new language production project? (you should not)
You're misinterpreting the OP, he's saying that some people do non computer things after 5, not that they work 80 hour weeks. And it's not really the time spent, it's the intellectual approach to computing, where tinkering is an end in itself, vs a more transactional approach.
>Software is one of those spaces where there is an incredible amount of capital invested in making things easy for the lowest common denominator.
This is true for _education_, however the design of the tooling itself, as well as the purely code-based interface with which we like to rely on (no WYSIWYG or visual creative tools) is what makes it creatively difficult
Compare the experience of making some HTML5 canvas game to making a song in modern day DAWs. In the latter there has been so much investment into improving the workflow and the quality of the software to make the creative experience smoother. In programming, almost no effort is put into the creative experience, outside of niche fantasy terminals (e.g. PICO-8)
This is true for _education_, however the design of the tooling itself, as well as the purely code-based interface with which we like to rely on (no WYSIWYG or visual creative tools) is what makes it creatively difficult
Compare the experience of making some HTML5 canvas game to making a song in modern day DAWs. In the latter there has been so much investment into improving the workflow and the quality of the software to make the creative experience smoother. In programming, almost no effort is put into the creative experience, outside of niche fantasy terminals (e.g. PICO-8)
Actually, if you use Processing with Android mode, it's pretty easy to create a simple app. I made something with circles falling down the screen that you have to tap and they explode in a nice satisfying particle explosion (it was mainly to test and demonstrate the surprising addictiveness of even such a simple game feature). This took about an hour, starting from a clean Processing install, including having to select and install (checkbox + button) the Android mode and writing about 50 lines of code. In all fairness, I'm already quite familiar with graphics programming with Processing, but even that is super easy, I teach it to kids starting from age 10-11 (if they're clever and curious enough).
But these kids, the clever and curious ones, they'll find this on their own too, and truly many more cool and free things to create stuff with online. A few years back, they were all over these free github student developer packs, especially the credits for a Digital Ocean droplet server, which they used to host sites, minecraft servers (IIRC) or Discord bots.
But these kids, the clever and curious ones, they'll find this on their own too, and truly many more cool and free things to create stuff with online. A few years back, they were all over these free github student developer packs, especially the credits for a Digital Ocean droplet server, which they used to host sites, minecraft servers (IIRC) or Discord bots.
In my experience Flutter does make getting a simple mobile app running quickly easy. It's not a drag and drop experience but the programming model is such that it doesn't take much code to get something interesting.
As an older programmer, Flutter is the closest thing I’ve felt to programming as a kid. It’s given me some hope that the JavaScript era will fade as a dark night of the programming soul. Kudos to the development team that put Flutter together.
ah yes, the famous "intrinsic simplicity" of writing, compiling, and deploying an app to an embedded device...
...perhaps you mean the countless drag-and-drop code-free frameworks that enable people to create apps without writing code? Or that a basic Swift tutorial to do just that takes about 15 minutes, including downloading Xcode? I just can't understand this confused nostalgia.
...perhaps you mean the countless drag-and-drop code-free frameworks that enable people to create apps without writing code? Or that a basic Swift tutorial to do just that takes about 15 minutes, including downloading Xcode? I just can't understand this confused nostalgia.
Embedded device? It's a handheld unix computer.
Ironically, actual embedded devices are far easier to program, with Arduino. You type your code in a window (with all boilerplate and build system abstracted away) and click a button, and boom it's compiled and uploaded and running. This is because it was designed to be easy to use - ostensibly to teach young people, but in practice it means lots of hackers use it too.
Ironically, actual embedded devices are far easier to program, with Arduino. You type your code in a window (with all boilerplate and build system abstracted away) and click a button, and boom it's compiled and uploaded and running. This is because it was designed to be easy to use - ostensibly to teach young people, but in practice it means lots of hackers use it too.
It's not the default, but you can have that kind of experience with various toolkits for mobile devices too. I've seen workshops which kids left after an afternoon with their own simple "game" deployed to their phones.
And every Arduino-like platform there are dozen Processing, Scratch, myriad drag-and-drop app builders...
Yep, it's never been easier
Yep, it's never been easier
There is a lot of legacy from the age of "the hardware can barely run it, but we're sticking a Unix with a graphics system on it anyway"
> the famous "intrinsic simplicity" of writing, compiling, and deploying an app to an embedded device.
90% of apps can be replicated as web pages, which are far, far easier to program and deploy. Frameworks do add a lot needless of complexity for little benefit. The reason is not a "test of worthiness" though - the purpose is developer lock-in and make it as much difficult as possible to switch to the competing platform. The only way to win this game is not to play
90% of apps can be replicated as web pages, which are far, far easier to program and deploy. Frameworks do add a lot needless of complexity for little benefit. The reason is not a "test of worthiness" though - the purpose is developer lock-in and make it as much difficult as possible to switch to the competing platform. The only way to win this game is not to play
Why designing most mobile apps should be harder than slamming together VB6 form applications is something that is not entirely clear to me.
Although when people start arguing that programming a web page is easy, it really brings home how awful modern programming is, and how long it has been since there was widespread usage of really decent and simple RAD tooling.
Although when people start arguing that programming a web page is easy, it really brings home how awful modern programming is, and how long it has been since there was widespread usage of really decent and simple RAD tooling.
It gets close enough if one just focus on one platform.
Or if one shells out to Delphi, RemObjects, Xamarin, Qt.
Or if one shells out to Delphi, RemObjects, Xamarin, Qt.
My company has been using expo for mobile development because you can build a React app and expo does all the work to make it work on Android and iOS. It's not perfect but since we're doing React for the web app, it's allowed web devs to become mobile devs with almost no additional training.
It's called OpenFL[1] and it is exactly that! Supports canvas and WebGL, as well as a whole bunch of native targets too. This is a reimplementation of the Flash API in the Haxe programming language.
And ruffle-rs[2] is a reimplemenation of the flash player itself in Rust. (So you'd still be using ActionScript for authoring)
[1]https://www.openfl.org/ [2]https://github.com/ruffle-rs/ruffle
And ruffle-rs[2] is a reimplemenation of the flash player itself in Rust. (So you'd still be using ActionScript for authoring)
[1]https://www.openfl.org/ [2]https://github.com/ruffle-rs/ruffle
> It's called OpenFL and it is exactly that
The first beginner tutorial is about displaying a bitmap and starts with a terminal [1]. This is not as discoverable as Flash’s tools, which felt more like MS Paint when first opened.
[1] https://www.openfl.org/learn/haxelib/tutorials/displaying-a-...
The first beginner tutorial is about displaying a bitmap and starts with a terminal [1]. This is not as discoverable as Flash’s tools, which felt more like MS Paint when first opened.
[1] https://www.openfl.org/learn/haxelib/tutorials/displaying-a-...
...yeah there's no way the creatives we're talking about are gonna use that. There must _not_ be any command line or scripting involved for most of the population to be able to use it.
But why reinvent the wheel? I think that the key to Flash's success is in its roots as an excellent, intuitive vector graphics editor called SmartSketch. (Way easier to use than Inkscape, IMO) They added animation to compete with Macromedia Shockwave in 1995, and the rest is the well known history of corporate greed and a victim of its own success.
The Flash IDE is still around, however (https://www.adobe.com/products/animate.html), but Adobe's giving it up at the end of 2020 :( I can only hope that they open source it.
A light, friendly version is Flash 5. It's available online (http://www.oldversion.com/windows/macromedia-flash-5-0), weighs in at a whopping 18 MB, and still works on Windows 10!
Anyway, Flash 5 Player .swf files can be exported as standalone .exe "Projectors". For example, the IDE tutorial one (https://www.sharhon.com/files/flash5test.exe) stands at 405 KB and still runs on Windows 10 as well. Surely it would be possible to wrap _real_ Flash projectors in a WebAssembly Windows NT emulator using a drag-and-drop webpage...and let the games begin.
But why reinvent the wheel? I think that the key to Flash's success is in its roots as an excellent, intuitive vector graphics editor called SmartSketch. (Way easier to use than Inkscape, IMO) They added animation to compete with Macromedia Shockwave in 1995, and the rest is the well known history of corporate greed and a victim of its own success.
The Flash IDE is still around, however (https://www.adobe.com/products/animate.html), but Adobe's giving it up at the end of 2020 :( I can only hope that they open source it.
A light, friendly version is Flash 5. It's available online (http://www.oldversion.com/windows/macromedia-flash-5-0), weighs in at a whopping 18 MB, and still works on Windows 10!
Anyway, Flash 5 Player .swf files can be exported as standalone .exe "Projectors". For example, the IDE tutorial one (https://www.sharhon.com/files/flash5test.exe) stands at 405 KB and still runs on Windows 10 as well. Surely it would be possible to wrap _real_ Flash projectors in a WebAssembly Windows NT emulator using a drag-and-drop webpage...and let the games begin.
Adobe Flash Player, the web browser plugin, will no longer be updated in 2020.
The Flash IDE, now called Animate, continues to be developed by Adobe. They have not announced an end of life for this tool. It will still be updated after 2020. In fact, it can now export a variety of new formats other than SWF files for Flash Player, and they've been expanding the animation features quite a bit in recent years.
It's unfortunate that many people are confused about what exactly Adobe has discontinued. So many people in this thread are lamenting that this user friendly animation tool no longer exists as a starting point for new users, when in fact, it does and will still be in active development beyond 2020.
The Flash IDE, now called Animate, continues to be developed by Adobe. They have not announced an end of life for this tool. It will still be updated after 2020. In fact, it can now export a variety of new formats other than SWF files for Flash Player, and they've been expanding the animation features quite a bit in recent years.
It's unfortunate that many people are confused about what exactly Adobe has discontinued. So many people in this thread are lamenting that this user friendly animation tool no longer exists as a starting point for new users, when in fact, it does and will still be in active development beyond 2020.
It’s worth noting that it’s no longer a user-friendly tool for making interactive experiences, though. The current version of Actionscript is working hard to be a Real Programming Language, with a lot more code to write to make anything happen. It feels like Java to AS2’s Basic, and you just can’t write stuff in AS2 any more.
(AS1 is gone too, it was something you had to write by selecting verbs in a massive dropdown, and good riddance to that.)
(AS1 is gone too, it was something you had to write by selecting verbs in a massive dropdown, and good riddance to that.)
> So many people in this thread are lamenting that this user friendly animation tool no longer exists as a starting point for new users, when in fact, it does and will still be in active development beyond 2020.
Animate really isn't as simple to use as Flash is, and bluntly in the modern Era the CC suite is too expensive to get those young users.
I wonder if Affinity will have a go at this in the long run.
Animate really isn't as simple to use as Flash is, and bluntly in the modern Era the CC suite is too expensive to get those young users.
I wonder if Affinity will have a go at this in the long run.
It's a fair criticism.
There is a workflow you can use with a custom Adobe Animate plugin that lets you use Adobe Animate as your authoring tool.
There is a workflow you can use with a custom Adobe Animate plugin that lets you use Adobe Animate as your authoring tool.
I would love to see something with a Flash-like UI. I'm not sure if there is a place for it in the middle-school market anymore, though. I'll explain why:
I think an interesting part of my experience was that it started with watching. I just loved the videos and thought they were hilarious. I admired the people who made those videos and I wanted to join that circle of creators. And Flash didn't prevent me from doing that. Not only that, but it was a specific low-effort style of animation. The path from consumer -> producer was short.
So really, I think you have to look at what people are consuming, and then try and make it easy for them to "participate." I'm not sure if people are consuming Flash-style animations anymore. (Maybe they are, and I just aged out of the demographic.)
It seems like a lot of that creative energy has moved to sandbox games like Minecraft for now, where that community of creators and would-be creators still exists, and away from animation and Web design.
I think an interesting part of my experience was that it started with watching. I just loved the videos and thought they were hilarious. I admired the people who made those videos and I wanted to join that circle of creators. And Flash didn't prevent me from doing that. Not only that, but it was a specific low-effort style of animation. The path from consumer -> producer was short.
So really, I think you have to look at what people are consuming, and then try and make it easy for them to "participate." I'm not sure if people are consuming Flash-style animations anymore. (Maybe they are, and I just aged out of the demographic.)
It seems like a lot of that creative energy has moved to sandbox games like Minecraft for now, where that community of creators and would-be creators still exists, and away from animation and Web design.
That's an interesting way to look at it. I know the Minecraft era definitely had its equivalent code-related fanbase who'd make plugins and mods in Java. The age of Minecraft has also faded away though (besides the most recent Pewdiepie revival) and I'm not sure Fortnite or the other shooter games of today have a programmatic side.
With Minecraft, even just watching a Youtube video and copying their build-style to make something cool is enough for a kid to learn that they can be a creator.
They realize that there's no magic; all it takes to make something nice is a little knowledge, and a lot of work.
From what I've seen of Fortnite, it promotes a different kind of creativity, which is more like creative problem solving (boxing people in, riding rockets, etc.) But it does have a sandbox mode that I've seen some interesting creations from.
They realize that there's no magic; all it takes to make something nice is a little knowledge, and a lot of work.
From what I've seen of Fortnite, it promotes a different kind of creativity, which is more like creative problem solving (boxing people in, riding rockets, etc.) But it does have a sandbox mode that I've seen some interesting creations from.
Fortnite defintely doesn't AFAIK, and their nature as a multiplayer game invites competition, and therefore, cheating making it important for the developer to actually de incentivize modding. I am very disappointed that modding of famous games is going down honestly.
Flash as an authoring tool is very much alive; Hasbro's infamous My Little Pony tv series is animated in Flash, to give a random example.
It's a great animation tool with a great learning curve, I'm surprised Adobe isn't doing more to get it in the hands of teenagers^w young creators.
It's a great animation tool with a great learning curve, I'm surprised Adobe isn't doing more to get it in the hands of teenagers^w young creators.
I think the place of animations might also been taken by video now. Back then, there were no ubiquitous video cameras and apps around them. Now, everyone can start making and sharing video clips with overlays/music/...
Totally agree. The creativity is still there, it just shifted to the latest medium that's easily available. Nobody could make cheap quick videos back before iphones and certainly couldn't view them easily on the web until YouTube came along.
And on that point it seems that Flash helped to kill itself by accelerating ubiquitous web video.
And on that point it seems that Flash helped to kill itself by accelerating ubiquitous web video.
I would love to see something with a Flash-like UI.
The 2D GUIs of many 3D games were written in Flash. There are non-Adobe Flash players which can be embedded. The advantage was the authoring tools - the GUIs could be elaborate and graphical without much effort.
The 2D GUIs of many 3D games were written in Flash. There are non-Adobe Flash players which can be embedded. The advantage was the authoring tools - the GUIs could be elaborate and graphical without much effort.
It's funny, I worked so intimately with Flash in my day job that I clocked this before I even knew the tech (Scaleform?) existed because badly made Flash content has a certain jankiness to it that I recognized instantly. The Borderlands 2 menu system comes to mind in particular.
I feel this too.
As a kid, I could kinda understand how to go from programming in Basic to Pong or Space Invaders.
A kid these days has _so_ many more expectations if they're wondering how Fortnite works...
I had enough hubris as a 12/13 year old to write Space Invaders in ascii in Basic on an Osbourne2, and later to get a quite creditable imitation using sprites on an AppleII.
I wonder if kids these days look at computers and think "I could do that" about anything they care about?
As a kid, I could kinda understand how to go from programming in Basic to Pong or Space Invaders.
A kid these days has _so_ many more expectations if they're wondering how Fortnite works...
I had enough hubris as a 12/13 year old to write Space Invaders in ascii in Basic on an Osbourne2, and later to get a quite creditable imitation using sprites on an AppleII.
I wonder if kids these days look at computers and think "I could do that" about anything they care about?
These days though- kids have access to much higher level languages and libraries and frameworks that can make some of these processes much easier. While it is much harder to understand the tech stack from the ground up- you can do a whole lot with the high level tools closer to the surface.
Kids may not no how to go from BASIC to a video-game- but they don't have to write their games in BASIC. There are point and click game studios, there are really great physics engines available, there are libraries that attempt to make it simple.
I remember learning how to build mods in minecraft ~10 years ago- there were tools out there that allowed you to make creatures or blocks that inherited behaviors programmed in other parts of the game- and you could do a lot with that!
Kids may not no how to go from BASIC to a video-game- but they don't have to write their games in BASIC. There are point and click game studios, there are really great physics engines available, there are libraries that attempt to make it simple.
I remember learning how to build mods in minecraft ~10 years ago- there were tools out there that allowed you to make creatures or blocks that inherited behaviors programmed in other parts of the game- and you could do a lot with that!
Do you have any pointers to, or keywords I can google, for some of those point and click game studios?
I've not tried to do anything like a game for decades, I'm kinda curious about that readily available tools kids could get their hands on these days... Closest I think I've come is launching Scratch from a RasPi's stock linux install...
I've not tried to do anything like a game for decades, I'm kinda curious about that readily available tools kids could get their hands on these days... Closest I think I've come is launching Scratch from a RasPi's stock linux install...
Scratch 3.0 (released Jan) is great, if you want the shallowest learning curve. I was astounded-- played with it for 2-3 hours to know what my kid was learning and in that time wrote three simple games.
I've heard great things about 001 Game Creator (free for 7 days, then $60) for more substantial use.
I've heard great things about 001 Game Creator (free for 7 days, then $60) for more substantial use.
It's been many years since I've looked into it- but I remember using a program called GameSalad back in the day. I used another couple of similar apps in middle school but I don't remember the names
There are options, at least if you want something to begin coding with; they're just a bit hard to find for the layperson that isn't following developer news.
For example, apps that run directly on mobile platforms (specifically, ones that don't need to connect to the 'cloud' to do their compiling):
- For iOS: Codea [1] (Lua), Continuous [2] (.NET), Swift Playgrounds [3] (Swift), Play.js [4] (Node.js + React Native) plus probably more (on that note, I really hope Continuous isn't abandoned, but it doesn't seem to have been updated in awhile).
- For Android: AIDE [5], TIC-80 [6], probably others (I'm not as familiar)
Moving up from mobile, you have FUZE4 Nintendo Switch [7] for the Nintendo Switch (excellent, but needs a bugfix update as there's lots of little annoyances). Probably the most kid-friendly thing there is right now IMHO, if you take into account the platform.
On the PC, there's just a huge amount of stuff. Minecraft [8], GameMaker [9], GDevelop [10], Godot Engine [11]. These are at least suitable for early teens.
[1] https://codea.io/ [2] http://continuous.codes/ [3] https://www.apple.com/au/swift/playgrounds/ [4] https://playdotjs.com/ [5] https://www.android-ide.com/ [6] https://tic.computer/ [7] https://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/fuze4-nintendo-switch/ [8] https://www.minecraft.net/en-us/ [9] https://www.yoyogames.com/gamemaker [10] https://gdevelop-app.com/ [11] https://godotengine.org/
Note: Yes, obvious game-making bias here :)
For example, apps that run directly on mobile platforms (specifically, ones that don't need to connect to the 'cloud' to do their compiling):
- For iOS: Codea [1] (Lua), Continuous [2] (.NET), Swift Playgrounds [3] (Swift), Play.js [4] (Node.js + React Native) plus probably more (on that note, I really hope Continuous isn't abandoned, but it doesn't seem to have been updated in awhile).
- For Android: AIDE [5], TIC-80 [6], probably others (I'm not as familiar)
Moving up from mobile, you have FUZE4 Nintendo Switch [7] for the Nintendo Switch (excellent, but needs a bugfix update as there's lots of little annoyances). Probably the most kid-friendly thing there is right now IMHO, if you take into account the platform.
On the PC, there's just a huge amount of stuff. Minecraft [8], GameMaker [9], GDevelop [10], Godot Engine [11]. These are at least suitable for early teens.
[1] https://codea.io/ [2] http://continuous.codes/ [3] https://www.apple.com/au/swift/playgrounds/ [4] https://playdotjs.com/ [5] https://www.android-ide.com/ [6] https://tic.computer/ [7] https://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/fuze4-nintendo-switch/ [8] https://www.minecraft.net/en-us/ [9] https://www.yoyogames.com/gamemaker [10] https://gdevelop-app.com/ [11] https://godotengine.org/
Note: Yes, obvious game-making bias here :)
Game Maker is hugely underrated and often dismissed because of its name.
It’s an incredibly powerful and easy to use game/interactive-app maker that can export packaged programs to Windows, OSX, Linux, and HTML5, then with additional licensing/fees to game consoles.
It has a drag-and-drop mode for absolute beginners that can let someone with zero experience be creating simple games in their first weekend playing with it.
Then it has GML mode which is their programming language with excellent documentation and a decent community cranking out tutorials and guides, which has put out some seriously legit indie games such as Red Strings Club, Hyperlight Drifter, and Hotline Miami.
It’s also not just for games. It’s great for making interactive stories (I’ve made interactive kids books with it), HTML5 demos and interfaces, 2D physics demos, and even does basic 3D stuff.
(Not affiliated just a big fan and use it extensively).
It’s an incredibly powerful and easy to use game/interactive-app maker that can export packaged programs to Windows, OSX, Linux, and HTML5, then with additional licensing/fees to game consoles.
It has a drag-and-drop mode for absolute beginners that can let someone with zero experience be creating simple games in their first weekend playing with it.
Then it has GML mode which is their programming language with excellent documentation and a decent community cranking out tutorials and guides, which has put out some seriously legit indie games such as Red Strings Club, Hyperlight Drifter, and Hotline Miami.
It’s also not just for games. It’s great for making interactive stories (I’ve made interactive kids books with it), HTML5 demos and interfaces, 2D physics demos, and even does basic 3D stuff.
(Not affiliated just a big fan and use it extensively).
Game Maker was my first approach at "serious" programming after messing around with javascript in the browser (not that I ever finished anything, mind you.)
But I would suggest Godot as an alternative for beginners now. Even though I don't like the proprietary scripting languages either uses by default, between GML and GDScript, the latter seems more powerful, and thus more educational. You can do "drag and drop and make a game for some defnition of a 'game'" in any of the modern game frameworks. But really, that only teaches you how to use the GUI, not how programming works.
Also Godot has a version that uses C#, and there are bindings for other languages out there (I don't know how complete or useful they are, though) whereas unless I'm wrong, with Game Maker you're stuck with GML.
But I would suggest Godot as an alternative for beginners now. Even though I don't like the proprietary scripting languages either uses by default, between GML and GDScript, the latter seems more powerful, and thus more educational. You can do "drag and drop and make a game for some defnition of a 'game'" in any of the modern game frameworks. But really, that only teaches you how to use the GUI, not how programming works.
Also Godot has a version that uses C#, and there are bindings for other languages out there (I don't know how complete or useful they are, though) whereas unless I'm wrong, with Game Maker you're stuck with GML.
Did you publish those stories? Would love to have a look!
No sorry, I mostly make small games/interactive-stories/educational-things for my own kids. None of them have really been publish worthy yet.
I do hope to start publishing some children's games and educational interactive stories one day though, I just need to find an artist (or practice more myself).
I do hope to start publishing some children's games and educational interactive stories one day though, I just need to find an artist (or practice more myself).
Shameless plug for BlockStudio [0], a programming environment for beginners, without textual code. It's free, and runs on any modern browser.
[0] https://www.blockstudio.app
[0] https://www.blockstudio.app
There is http://www.stencyl.com/ also. Used it many years ago, so not sure how it stands now. But back then, it was a very cool product. Used at a couple of game jams.
Also Unity's HTML export, and most notably Adobe Flash (which is "Flash but on a canvas" in the most literal way, even though the main demographic are now animators)
>> Maybe there is a place in the market for framework to implement a flash-a-like in a HTML5 Canvas?
If by "framework" you mean "easy to use tool" then I agree.
Programmers are often the last people who should design tools - they dont bat an eye at having to edit a config file, tweak settings, install plugins, manage dependencies, run a compiler or other batch processing tool.
If by "framework" you mean "easy to use tool" then I agree.
Programmers are often the last people who should design tools - they dont bat an eye at having to edit a config file, tweak settings, install plugins, manage dependencies, run a compiler or other batch processing tool.
Except, except ... having watched my teenage daughter play some games recently, there seems to be a trend for pixel art going on, half the things she is playing have the graphical sophistication of the stuff I was playing on my ZX Spectrum (only a modicum of exaggeration).
Wickeditor is meant to be something like that: https://www.wickeditor.com/#/
It looks kinda interesting but the apparent mobile-oriented interface makes it highly unusable (and wastes a ton of screen space). The "legacy" version that used a more compact UI, menu bar and right click menus is much easier and faster to use (it took me a lot of time to figure out how to add a keyframe with the mobile-oriented interface which basically was moving my mouse over everything i thought was an interactive element to see a tooltip about what it does -- ironically this most likely wont be possible on a mobile device).
I was introduced to programming in middle school with Batch. A friend of mine was making a script to chat between computers and being able to make something interactive on a computer was so cool to me that I had him explain it. I learned Batch, then I learned Lua, Python, Java, and kept going. Minecraft which was really big at the time, drew me into making servers for my friends, which introduced me to plugins and programming them.
I think there will always be easy ways to break into tech, they just might change from year to year.
I think there will always be easy ways to break into tech, they just might change from year to year.
Adobe Animate is a successor to Flash and is exactly this.
The barrier to entry is higher because people's expectations for what a website is is higher.
You can still make crappy HTML pages with very basic inline JS, but if you're a kid starting out, that's not enough. You should probably learn a JS framework and some graphic design if you don't want it to be laughed at.
Our field is just becoming more mature and advanced. Cars used to be easier to work on, too.
You can still make crappy HTML pages with very basic inline JS, but if you're a kid starting out, that's not enough. You should probably learn a JS framework and some graphic design if you don't want it to be laughed at.
Our field is just becoming more mature and advanced. Cars used to be easier to work on, too.
I was amazed when I discovered ‘tweening’ in the IDE.
Programmers have a huge disdain for end user programming. Visual Basic, spreadsheets, even HyperCard.
The vast majority of coding should be end user programming. The collective we just wants to own the tools and the jobs.
The vast majority of coding should be end user programming. The collective we just wants to own the tools and the jobs.
On the contrary, I loved VB and Delphi, and it is the reason why I mostly focused on Java and .NET as my daily tools.
Developers are users as well, and I think too many fail to understand this.
Whatever tooling makes it easier to develop for, means that I can focus on other parts of the problem.
I don't miss working like I did during the late 80, early 90s. Our computers are so much better for them to be reduced to a green phosphor VT-100 terminal.
Developers are users as well, and I think too many fail to understand this.
Whatever tooling makes it easier to develop for, means that I can focus on other parts of the problem.
I don't miss working like I did during the late 80, early 90s. Our computers are so much better for them to be reduced to a green phosphor VT-100 terminal.
You and I agree, but look at the market for end user programming, it is vastly under developed. You are a single data point, not the whole population.
End users are way smarter and more capable than programmers give them credit. Applications should be empowering users not capturing them in a walled garden fed by their masters.
End users are way smarter and more capable than programmers give them credit. Applications should be empowering users not capturing them in a walled garden fed by their masters.
> Our computers are so much better for them to be reduced to a green phosphor VT-100 terminal.
So much this. Every time someone harps about this or that great terminal application that looks worse than even MS-DOS applications from the late-80s (when most users had moved on from MDA cards) i die a little inside.
So much this. Every time someone harps about this or that great terminal application that looks worse than even MS-DOS applications from the late-80s (when most users had moved on from MDA cards) i die a little inside.
I am sympathetic to your sentiment, but the reason for the disdain is Professionalization:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professionalization
It's natural to want your job not to be turned over to the CEO's 14 year old son.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professionalization
It's natural to want your job not to be turned over to the CEO's 14 year old son.
The opposite is the case, actually. It's far easier than ever to make animations and write software.
I would contend Flash was a miserable developer tool, a near feature-free IDE, and rather than "balance", it took a kitchen sink approach to letting you put any kind of code anywhere...in an object, on the document, in a UI event of a button, on a frame.
Meanwhile, there are quite a few flash-likes for HTML5, and many of them are smart enough not to use Canvas (much)!
I would contend Flash was a miserable developer tool, a near feature-free IDE, and rather than "balance", it took a kitchen sink approach to letting you put any kind of code anywhere...in an object, on the document, in a UI event of a button, on a frame.
Meanwhile, there are quite a few flash-likes for HTML5, and many of them are smart enough not to use Canvas (much)!
What you describe as miserable was my introduction to software development. I never had any technically minded friends or family, and growing up I looked at programming the same way I looked at professional sports; out of my reach and not worth attempting. I started my career as a graphic designer and flash became popular a few years after I started working. The ability to "put code anywhere" allowed me to experiment without having to learn an entire language or ecosystem just to get started. The fact that the IDE was all you need to design, script, and publish content made "hello world" as easy as installing a single app. When I consider the landscape of programming tools in 2019 I can't imagine that kid from a poor family with no training or support being able to make the transition from novice to professional. It's true that browser dev tools and online tutorials have drastically lowered to barrier of entry for application development, but the leap from browser dev tools to being able to actually author and deploy a fully functioning app is enormous. In the flash days there was no difference between the hello world and the professional development environment. It's sad, because becoming a software developer completely transformed my life and provided me with an income over 4x greater than my parents' combined salaries when I was a teenager. When I read comments deriding the old flash IDE for its simplicity it makes me sad for today's generation of underprivileged kids. I hope there is still a path for them to lift themselves out of a life of few opportunities through the joy of programming.
Yes! My entry point as well, back in the Macromedia days, making interactive animations with gotoAndStop. When AS3 appeared many years later weaned myself into the concepts of OOP, partly out of need, partly out of curiousity ... but mainly to understand other's work. Looking up to guys like mr doob. Frontend tooling today is insane. The flash ide and actionscript felt like a standard at the time, with a huge amount of power abstracted away. I feel like it's only in the past 5 years that the real standards have caught up with the (admiteddly inaccessible) possibilities of pre-2008.
MS Excel also lets you put any kind of code anywhere. IMO, nNot forcing any organization lowers the barrier to entry.
> Not forcing any organization lowers the barrier to entry.
And raises the barrier to maintenance.
And raises the barrier to maintenance.
Maintenance doesn't really matter when you're trying to just get into something as a novice and voraciously create.
A larval developer's gateway project is all but guaranteed to end up as an incomprehensible mess of spaghetti that'll fall to pieces at the lightest touch after a summer of plugging away at it, but that's not what's important. What's important is that they could make something -- something real. By the time it's left as a shambling pile of kluges and bad practices that'll never see the light of day again, it's still gotten far enough to inspire something, and serves as a great point to move on to greater ambitions -- or even start from scratch with one's lessons learned and make it better, perhaps with a more advanced toolset that now seems infinitely more approachable than it did at the beginning.
This isn't a discussion about tools to create software that'll be refined, depended on, and passed on to new developers over the span of years. It's about bridging the gap between restrictive toys and actual non-trivial projects for novices to tinker with.
A larval developer's gateway project is all but guaranteed to end up as an incomprehensible mess of spaghetti that'll fall to pieces at the lightest touch after a summer of plugging away at it, but that's not what's important. What's important is that they could make something -- something real. By the time it's left as a shambling pile of kluges and bad practices that'll never see the light of day again, it's still gotten far enough to inspire something, and serves as a great point to move on to greater ambitions -- or even start from scratch with one's lessons learned and make it better, perhaps with a more advanced toolset that now seems infinitely more approachable than it did at the beginning.
This isn't a discussion about tools to create software that'll be refined, depended on, and passed on to new developers over the span of years. It's about bridging the gap between restrictive toys and actual non-trivial projects for novices to tinker with.
That part is (hopefully) obvious to the typical HN reader, but the fact that some things that make maintenance harder also make it easier for non-developers is sometimes missed.
Take it one or two more years for WebAssembly to gain critical mass.
The barrier to entry kinda needs to be high. The attention economy combined hordes of capable creative content producers means there is just not room for people who are not willing to
work really hard at something.
If you go back and watch some of the old flash stuff or play old flash games they are not good, they would be completely unnoticed today.
If you go back and watch some of the old flash stuff or play old flash games they are not good, they would be completely unnoticed today.
https://www.anim8.io might spark your imagination again.
Lots of animators are still making indy animation, it's just been drowned out on the major platforms due to how time consuming it is to create and it's basically not possible to monetize well outside of Anim8 now (YouTube algorithm favors frequent uploads and high video duration - not compatible with animation).
Lots of animators are still making indy animation, it's just been drowned out on the major platforms due to how time consuming it is to create and it's basically not possible to monetize well outside of Anim8 now (YouTube algorithm favors frequent uploads and high video duration - not compatible with animation).
Anim8 seems to be the closest thing to classic Flash animation, albeit without the interactive component.
However, I'm a little disappointed that it seems to output in MP4. Is there really no modern format for vector video?
However, I'm a little disappointed that it seems to output in MP4. Is there really no modern format for vector video?
This reminds me of my discovery and learning Hypercard probably 15 years before you learned Flash. To me it was the same kind of creative spark. I was encouraged by Cosmic Osmo, and later Myst and the like. I never did learn to program with it.
I don't know where the modern equivalent is. Maybe they only pop up every couple of decades...
I don't know where the modern equivalent is. Maybe they only pop up every couple of decades...
Everything young people do now outside of schooling and dedicated hobbies seems to be mobile-based, so Tiktok is probably the equivalent to Newgrounds these days.
This "novices" thing seems to me to be overblown though; Alan Kay has been beating the "programming for novices" drum for decades with Smalltalk and basically nothing happened. I would rather have professional-quality tools with decent Youtube tutorials, like Blender, Unity, Python, etc. have been developing.
This "novices" thing seems to me to be overblown though; Alan Kay has been beating the "programming for novices" drum for decades with Smalltalk and basically nothing happened. I would rather have professional-quality tools with decent Youtube tutorials, like Blender, Unity, Python, etc. have been developing.
> Tiktok is probably the equivalent to Newgrounds these days.
that's like comparing crack-cocaine den to LARP'ing groups. No way newgrounds is anything comparable to the lows that is tiktok (or vine).
that's like comparing crack-cocaine den to LARP'ing groups. No way newgrounds is anything comparable to the lows that is tiktok (or vine).
The comparison isn't about the quality, creativeness or usefulness, but about on what kids spend their free time and attention.
> I believe it's that powerful experience for novices that we're missing
I think we have more "powerful experiences" for novices than ever before, which is part of the whole attention problem. In the early 2000, we didn't have YouTube, Netflix, WhatsApp, TikTok, etc. where tons of teens spend many, many, many hours in nowadays. Those who got access to Flash found a sink for their free time and after just a few hours will have figured out the basic elements. Try to get kids to focus for just these initial few hours on their own, without them getting distracted on some other platform or immediately trying to find a YouTube tutorial, instead of just trying things and actually learning the tool, rather than copying whatever someone else is doing in a video.
I think we have more "powerful experiences" for novices than ever before, which is part of the whole attention problem. In the early 2000, we didn't have YouTube, Netflix, WhatsApp, TikTok, etc. where tons of teens spend many, many, many hours in nowadays. Those who got access to Flash found a sink for their free time and after just a few hours will have figured out the basic elements. Try to get kids to focus for just these initial few hours on their own, without them getting distracted on some other platform or immediately trying to find a YouTube tutorial, instead of just trying things and actually learning the tool, rather than copying whatever someone else is doing in a video.
I know a lot of early Adult Swing shows were made with Flash (I think Aqua Teen?). What are studios using today? Is there anything equivalent today that matches the power of Flash for young animators?
Isn't Flash still viable for animation studios? I thought Flash Player is what's going away, effectively killing Flash playback on the Web, but Flash itself as an animation platform continues to be a supported, actively-developed and commercially available tool.
Adobe Animate is the successor to Flash's animation toolset. Animators use a number of different tools today, many that implement tweening, depending on studio needs.
Also, low or no-cost applications that are accessible to newcomers include Blender and the upcoming Procreate 5.
Also, low or no-cost applications that are accessible to newcomers include Blender and the upcoming Procreate 5.
Theres also OpenToonz and Synfig as other open source options
Yes it’s still very commonly used by animators. They actually changed the name of the application to Animate but not too much has changed over the last 10 years. We still use it heavily at our studio for 2D game animation and short form animation for TV/web.
The My Little Pony show just ended and it used Flash for 9 seasons. Most modern cartoons use ToonBoom though.
[deleted]
Carefully worded, I suspect we both “acquired” it through similar means :-)
I was never a Flash developer, but I certainly admired it in its prime. The early versions could be installed simply by putting a 47kb DLL in the plugins directory, and in a time well before the HTML canvas or JavaScript with good performance, this brought dead web pages to life in a way that was very portable across browsers and operating systems. It was much better (lighter, simpler, quicker to load) than Java applets from the mid 90s.
It's easy to imagine the various security vulnerabilities could have been fixed by a more responsible/responsive company, and the abuse by advertisement companies should've been solvable with an ad blocker.
JavaScript, CSS, and HTML have come a long way in capability, but the mashup is much more distasteful to me. Flash was elegant despite its frequent misuse.
It's easy to imagine the various security vulnerabilities could have been fixed by a more responsible/responsive company, and the abuse by advertisement companies should've been solvable with an ad blocker.
JavaScript, CSS, and HTML have come a long way in capability, but the mashup is much more distasteful to me. Flash was elegant despite its frequent misuse.
Something that's not easy to appreciate about Flash if you weren't there is that it is the first tool that really put multimedia interactivity within reach of non-devs -- and, almost gratuitously, made it dirt simple to distribute your creation at the same time.
A tech-savvy artist, who would previously have needed a handful of devs and a publishing company to get a fun toy to a few hundred users, could suddenly build and send something around the world in a week. No wonder it uncovered so many creative projects waiting to happen!!
A tech-savvy artist, who would previously have needed a handful of devs and a publishing company to get a fun toy to a few hundred users, could suddenly build and send something around the world in a week. No wonder it uncovered so many creative projects waiting to happen!!
Disclaimer: old timer
As someone who wrote a complete 3d modeller for a game, including animation, even before 3dsmax was a thing, I was surprised when a few years later (10+) I saw how easy the Flash UI was to understand, especially the way keyfames were added. The UX was rather extraordinary. Unfortunately even at that time (early iPhone) because Flash was so synonymous with security flaws, I would regularly uninstall it. Since then, I've yet to see a solution that's as easy to use and doesn't have some kind of vendor lock in (like Flash did). Maybe I haven't looked hard enough tho.
As much as I personally disliked the artistic Flash- only sites at the time, hindsight shows that they were rather invaluable. We lost a lot of diversity when Apple killed it off.
As someone who wrote a complete 3d modeller for a game, including animation, even before 3dsmax was a thing, I was surprised when a few years later (10+) I saw how easy the Flash UI was to understand, especially the way keyfames were added. The UX was rather extraordinary. Unfortunately even at that time (early iPhone) because Flash was so synonymous with security flaws, I would regularly uninstall it. Since then, I've yet to see a solution that's as easy to use and doesn't have some kind of vendor lock in (like Flash did). Maybe I haven't looked hard enough tho.
As much as I personally disliked the artistic Flash- only sites at the time, hindsight shows that they were rather invaluable. We lost a lot of diversity when Apple killed it off.
And it was very easy to distribute too! All you needed to share was the swf.
> It was much better (lighter, simpler, quicker to load) than Java applets from the mid 90s.
People often forget about those.
People often forget about those.
Removing Flash from the web was done with good intentions. It was a propitiatory system plagued with security holes. Instead of replacing it with similarly capable open standards, we've got a propitiatory Encrypted Media Extensions (EME), flaky HTML5 calls that differ between browsers, and webassembly.
It's a shame that HTML5 never really reached the ability of flash. And it's also a shame that Adobe didn't simply release the swf spec.
It's a shame that HTML5 never really reached the ability of flash. And it's also a shame that Adobe didn't simply release the swf spec.
Adobe did open the swf spec in later versions. Swf was compressed bytecode. Still a lot more efficient than the way we send js.
https://www.adobe.com/content/dam/acom/en/devnet/pdf/swf-fil...
There were a number of tools that compiled to swf.
It sucks that Adobe never opened the Flash Player. That was it’s death nail. They had little to gain from it. It was free. The money maker was Flash Studio and other Macromedia tools.
If Adobe had opened Flash and had a sane security Sandbox it would have survived iOS. Adobe was like the old Microsoft though. They just didn’t get the power of Open Source.
https://www.adobe.com/content/dam/acom/en/devnet/pdf/swf-fil...
There were a number of tools that compiled to swf.
It sucks that Adobe never opened the Flash Player. That was it’s death nail. They had little to gain from it. It was free. The money maker was Flash Studio and other Macromedia tools.
If Adobe had opened Flash and had a sane security Sandbox it would have survived iOS. Adobe was like the old Microsoft though. They just didn’t get the power of Open Source.
My bet would be the real money maker was all the spyware included with the Flash installer.
Flash died because of Apple, and before Adboe bought Macromedia, it was an incredibly small runtime; way better than Java at very specific forms of 3D rendering. Old Flash can be upscaled to 4k. A youtube video is pre-rendered and stuck at that resolution forever.
> Flash died because of Apple
Hehe. Not really. Jobs may have put one nail in the coffin, but Adobe killed flash. And flash was already dying because of abusive ads and HTML5 before Apple said anything. Here’s one of the Flash developers backing that up: https://m.slashdot.org/story/324267
Hehe. Not really. Jobs may have put one nail in the coffin, but Adobe killed flash. And flash was already dying because of abusive ads and HTML5 before Apple said anything. Here’s one of the Flash developers backing that up: https://m.slashdot.org/story/324267
Can confirm. I was doing flash game development when flash "died." One of the guys I worked with created the Flex compiler. He told me Adobe had a seriously bad combination of brain drain and code ossification. The motto on the flash team was "don't break the internet."
For years, they were terrified of making any changes, especially ones that might break backward compatibility. This lack of ability to change anything meant their brightest never stuck around very long. This only made those who were left even more terrified to make any changes because the institutional knowledge was gone. It's a vicious cycle.
By the time they realized they had to make serious changes and started work on stage3d, they didn't have the expertise necessary to pull it off.
For years, they were terrified of making any changes, especially ones that might break backward compatibility. This lack of ability to change anything meant their brightest never stuck around very long. This only made those who were left even more terrified to make any changes because the institutional knowledge was gone. It's a vicious cycle.
By the time they realized they had to make serious changes and started work on stage3d, they didn't have the expertise necessary to pull it off.
> For years, they were terrified of making any changes, especially ones that might break backward compatibility. This lack of ability to change anything meant their brightest never stuck around very long. This only made those who were left even more terrified to make any changes because the institutional knowledge was gone. It's a vicious cycle.
That's an interesting comment. I actually wonder whether this eventually happens for any successful product. At the end this gives competitors a chance to surpass the product. So it's definitely a cycle.
That's an interesting comment. I actually wonder whether this eventually happens for any successful product. At the end this gives competitors a chance to surpass the product. So it's definitely a cycle.
It happens to a lot of successful products over time, but it's not inevitable by any means. It's possible to make software that is viable long term. But, there are many ugly realities regarding the current state of Corporate America that encourages this cycle.
For example, the fact that most engineers need to job hop in order to get promotions and raises. That makes it nearly impossible to build up long term institutional knowledge at any one company.
Another example: everyone in a publicly held company, from the rank and file programmers to the CEO, are rewarded for short term sales at the expense of long term stability. We had a thread here not too long ago[0] about how being a "maintenance engineer" was career suicide.
[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21224188
For example, the fact that most engineers need to job hop in order to get promotions and raises. That makes it nearly impossible to build up long term institutional knowledge at any one company.
Another example: everyone in a publicly held company, from the rank and file programmers to the CEO, are rewarded for short term sales at the expense of long term stability. We had a thread here not too long ago[0] about how being a "maintenance engineer" was career suicide.
[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21224188
I hear this a lot, but where was the Android or BlackBerry or Windows phone that ran Flash acceptably fast, and without weekly security holes?
Mobile killed Flash. It was a poorly implemented technology which was acceptable only during the era where electric power was unlimited, and people were in the habit of frequent reboots to update their OS anyway.
Mobile killed Flash. It was a poorly implemented technology which was acceptable only during the era where electric power was unlimited, and people were in the habit of frequent reboots to update their OS anyway.
It's worth noting that the Flash platform originated on mobile devices, and pivoted to a Netscape Plugin when the mobile market proved to be premature (early nineties).
For those of you half-considering building a Flash player replacement, I suspect the majority of Flash content (especially pre-AS3) can run performantly on modern mobile browsers with a canvas Context2D shim. Maybe even on 2010-era mobile devices.
For those of you half-considering building a Flash player replacement, I suspect the majority of Flash content (especially pre-AS3) can run performantly on modern mobile browsers with a canvas Context2D shim. Maybe even on 2010-era mobile devices.
Windows CE and Ipaq. I created mobile tour apps for museums like the Louvre, LA County Museum, SFMOMA and the Whitney that successfully served tens of thousands of people daily in the mid/late 2000s.
"Flash died with good intentions" is false. Flash died because it was the perfect tool for making mobile content, if not for the fact that it was sluggish on early iphone hardware. If Apple worked with Adobe to optimize flash for mobile, it would still be alive and well today. Instead Jobs decided business wise he could lock devs into developing native apps in the iOS ecosystem, scapegoat performance and security for the ban, and gain a competitive advantage at the same time.
> If Apple worked with Adobe to optimize flash for mobile, it would still be alive and well today.
Why is it on Apple to save Adobe’a software? Why not Microsoft, BlackBerry, Google ... or Adobe?
> Instead Jobs decided business wise he could lock devs into developing native apps in the iOS ecosystem
iPhoneOS lacked support for Flash long before it had a native SDK. Jobs decided the answer was HTML, which is exactly the opposite of a locked-in ecosystem.
Why is it on Apple to save Adobe’a software? Why not Microsoft, BlackBerry, Google ... or Adobe?
> Instead Jobs decided business wise he could lock devs into developing native apps in the iOS ecosystem
iPhoneOS lacked support for Flash long before it had a native SDK. Jobs decided the answer was HTML, which is exactly the opposite of a locked-in ecosystem.
Why are you rewriting history? Apple didn't just decide not to embrace Flash, they actively decided to kill it. Apple banned flash based apps in their review guidelines and Adobe didn't see a way forward since Job's had decided everything but native apps were to be purged from the app store. Html 5 isn't a replacement for what flash offered, it wasn't then and it isn't now.
Here is the Jobs quote from when this happened: "He takes a while to get there, but eventually he puts the notion into a nutshell. "Flash is a cross platform development tool," he says. "It is not Adobe’s goal to help developers write the best iPhone, iPod and iPad apps. It is their goal to help developers write cross platform apps.""
""Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs"
Here is the Jobs quote from when this happened: "He takes a while to get there, but eventually he puts the notion into a nutshell. "Flash is a cross platform development tool," he says. "It is not Adobe’s goal to help developers write the best iPhone, iPod and iPad apps. It is their goal to help developers write cross platform apps.""
""Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs"
You seem to be doing a little re-writing of history yourself right here:
> Instead Jobs decided business wise he could lock devs into developing native apps in the iOS ecosystem, scapegoat performance and security for the ban, and gain a competitive advantage at the same time
Steve Jobs never even envisioned the App Store model when he decided against supporting Flash in Safari.
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/App_Store_(iOS) :
>... prior to its unveiling in 2007, Apple's then-CEO Steve Jobs did not intend to let third-party developers build native apps for iOS, instead directing them to make web applications for the Safari web browser. However, backlash from developers prompted the company to reconsider, with Jobs announcing in October 2007 that Apple would have a software development kit available for developers by February 2008
You can also read about an actual iPhone engineer's thoughts on the matter https://finance.yahoo.com/news/apple-engineer-reveals-real-r...
Interesting tidbit: Apple was actually trying to work with Adobe to iron out Flash's security problems but was rebuffed.
Anyways, the fact is, the App Store was actually an afterthought.... An accident of history that even Steve didn't see coming. The decision to forego Flash came way before that.
> Instead Jobs decided business wise he could lock devs into developing native apps in the iOS ecosystem, scapegoat performance and security for the ban, and gain a competitive advantage at the same time
Steve Jobs never even envisioned the App Store model when he decided against supporting Flash in Safari.
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/App_Store_(iOS) :
>... prior to its unveiling in 2007, Apple's then-CEO Steve Jobs did not intend to let third-party developers build native apps for iOS, instead directing them to make web applications for the Safari web browser. However, backlash from developers prompted the company to reconsider, with Jobs announcing in October 2007 that Apple would have a software development kit available for developers by February 2008
You can also read about an actual iPhone engineer's thoughts on the matter https://finance.yahoo.com/news/apple-engineer-reveals-real-r...
Interesting tidbit: Apple was actually trying to work with Adobe to iron out Flash's security problems but was rebuffed.
Anyways, the fact is, the App Store was actually an afterthought.... An accident of history that even Steve didn't see coming. The decision to forego Flash came way before that.
>... prior to its unveiling in 2007, Apple's then-CEO Steve Jobs did not intend to let third-party developers build native apps for iOS, instead directing them to make web applications for the Safari web browser. However, backlash from developers prompted the company to reconsider, with Jobs announcing in October 2007 that Apple would have a software development kit available for developers by February 2008
Let me translate that:
Steve Jobs did not intend to let anyone else profit from iOS, instead directing them to make web applications for the Safari web browser that would provide subpar experience.
They released a publicly accessible SDK in less than 4 months? And you believe it wasn't in their plan at all to allow anyone else to develop on it? They clearly planned to have a way to sideload app on it. Itunes already existed since 2001, it wasn't anything new for them. The only things they decided to change was to allow everyone to access it.
Flash would have been a way to allow everyone to access much more powerful feature. This is why they avoided it. The app store was an alternative that allowed them to keep control of it.
Let me translate that:
Steve Jobs did not intend to let anyone else profit from iOS, instead directing them to make web applications for the Safari web browser that would provide subpar experience.
They released a publicly accessible SDK in less than 4 months? And you believe it wasn't in their plan at all to allow anyone else to develop on it? They clearly planned to have a way to sideload app on it. Itunes already existed since 2001, it wasn't anything new for them. The only things they decided to change was to allow everyone to access it.
Flash would have been a way to allow everyone to access much more powerful feature. This is why they avoided it. The app store was an alternative that allowed them to keep control of it.
I'm referring to were jobs went on a 1600 word rant about flash while not once mentioning the shortcomings of his own objective-c authoring environments and the many good things about flash that lead to the enormous community it had.
https://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/
This combined with updated app review guidelines banning flash on iOS accelerated the adoption of html5.
Afterthought or not, apps quickly became the biggest selling point of smartphones from the second gen onward and many technical architecture decisions had the intended effect of locking developers in. Ports to android were often delayed by months and years if they happened at all.
This combined with updated app review guidelines banning flash on iOS accelerated the adoption of html5.
Afterthought or not, apps quickly became the biggest selling point of smartphones from the second gen onward and many technical architecture decisions had the intended effect of locking developers in. Ports to android were often delayed by months and years if they happened at all.
You accused someone of "trying to rewrite history", when what they said was factually correct.
It's also been established that Apple tried to work with Adobe on addressing the issues it saw with Flash but was rebuffed.
The issue of Apple forbidding non-native code is one I disagreed with but has many layers and complexities. It's not nearly as simple as your implication that Jobs seemingly woke up one day and decided to kill Flash for no good reason.
> rant about flash while not once mentioning the shortcomings of his own objective-c authoring environments and the many good things about flash that lead to the enormous community it had
I'm just going to re-phrase what the poster above said - Why is it on Apple to evangelize Adobe's software (and criticize it's own)? That just doesn't make any sense.
It's also been established that Apple tried to work with Adobe on addressing the issues it saw with Flash but was rebuffed.
The issue of Apple forbidding non-native code is one I disagreed with but has many layers and complexities. It's not nearly as simple as your implication that Jobs seemingly woke up one day and decided to kill Flash for no good reason.
> rant about flash while not once mentioning the shortcomings of his own objective-c authoring environments and the many good things about flash that lead to the enormous community it had
I'm just going to re-phrase what the poster above said - Why is it on Apple to evangelize Adobe's software (and criticize it's own)? That just doesn't make any sense.
>Why is it on Apple to make honest evaluations of Flash?
It makes a lot of sense if the primary goal is to make good technology and software. Is that seriously so hard to understand?
It makes a lot of sense if the primary goal is to make good technology and software. Is that seriously so hard to understand?
In case you missed it, he was discussing Flash in the context of a mobile device. There is simply nothing positive to say about it. Nothing.
Everything he did mention, from power consumption to terrible security and poor usability has since been proven true. I don't know of a single reputable technologist, or tech journalist, who would dispute that. Do you?
Here's a write up of why Flash failed on Android. Notice any familiar themes?
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/134551-why-flash-faile...
Everything he did mention, from power consumption to terrible security and poor usability has since been proven true. I don't know of a single reputable technologist, or tech journalist, who would dispute that. Do you?
Here's a write up of why Flash failed on Android. Notice any familiar themes?
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/134551-why-flash-faile...
I can tell you've never used the flash authoring tool or you wouldn't be making snarky remarks about this. Nobody is disputing that the runtime had problems and it was never good enough for prime-time on mobile on older devices. But a blanket ban on Flash was anti-competitive behavior that means Adobe never got the chance to prove it could work.
>Adobe never got the chance to prove it could work
Wait, what? They had years to demonstrate it working well on Android. They failed. Spectacularly. Why are you ignoring widely accepted fact of tech history? Are you implying that is also Apple's fault?
Look, if you want to discuss Apple being anti-competitive I'm all ears. I more or less agree. But using Flash as an example does nothing to help your argument. That's because everything Apple claimed about why Flash wouldn't work on mobile was later proven to be true. Everything.
Flash on Android was a disaster. Ignoring that fact to claim it could have worked on iOS (because... magic?) is nothing but revisionist anti-Apple zealotry.
Never let facts get in the way of a good Apple-bashing I guess.
Wait, what? They had years to demonstrate it working well on Android. They failed. Spectacularly. Why are you ignoring widely accepted fact of tech history? Are you implying that is also Apple's fault?
Look, if you want to discuss Apple being anti-competitive I'm all ears. I more or less agree. But using Flash as an example does nothing to help your argument. That's because everything Apple claimed about why Flash wouldn't work on mobile was later proven to be true. Everything.
Flash on Android was a disaster. Ignoring that fact to claim it could have worked on iOS (because... magic?) is nothing but revisionist anti-Apple zealotry.
Never let facts get in the way of a good Apple-bashing I guess.
Flash Lite worked perfectly fine on loads of ancient mobile phones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flash_Lite
Flash performance was always terrible on all platforms. It span up the CPU on my windows computer from the beginning and never stopped until its eventual demise.
That's from bad programming practices. It was very easy to write a terrible inefficient program with it since it was so accessible. There was nothing inherent in Flash that used a lot of CPU. The VM was pretty light weight. It also had only a software renderer for most of its lifetime which would naturally struggle with lots of crazy overlapping effects.
HTML5 video had significantly better performance in terms of CPU from the beginning, and I'm fairly certain the Flash video players weren't written by amateur programmers with bad programming practices.
That is not performance, that is resource usage.
As a game developer who has programmed in ActionScript3, I can tell you that Flash was very performant for 2D graphics.
As a game developer who has programmed in ActionScript3, I can tell you that Flash was very performant for 2D graphics.
Requiring all of my computer's resources in order to get good performance is bad performance.
Youtube has no interactivity either.
Except that it can. Youtube lets producers (channels) post polls, let's consumers (viewers) post comments, and if channels want to, they can do something interactive- over a video series & etc.
Youtube has no interactivity within videos. There used to be a little bit of it with annotations, but those were killed off ages ago.
Compare that to Flash video series like Homestar Runner, every episode had little Easter eggs where you could click on background characters to unlock a bonus scene about them. It really helped you feel engaged with the medium in a way unmatched by anything but full-length video games.
Compare that to Flash video series like Homestar Runner, every episode had little Easter eggs where you could click on background characters to unlock a bonus scene about them. It really helped you feel engaged with the medium in a way unmatched by anything but full-length video games.
I maintain that communication is not interactivity. Especially when everyone writes and nobody reads.
Sure it didn't make much sense in the HTML5 world, but if Adobe hadn't killed the upcoming new version of the language and engine (I think it was called Flash Next) it would have been an amazing tool for making apps and games.
I wasn’t a big Flash user back in the day but I think our product Construct 3 (https://www.construct.net) can do just about everything Flash did, especially with the addition of the Timeline editor and scripting we’ve just added. I’m a little hesitant to overtly market Construct as the “next flash” as that I think would receive a mixed reception depending on your experiences with it!
Tom Fulp from Newgrounds has nice things to say about Construct, and we’re getting very positive numbers from other portals and platforms (some very big) that a lot of volume of games and good quality ones at that are being published with them using Construct 3.
I’d like to hear from more experienced Flash users if there’s anything Construct 3 can’t do that Flash could as it would likely be an important feature we’d be keen to add!
Tom Fulp from Newgrounds has nice things to say about Construct, and we’re getting very positive numbers from other portals and platforms (some very big) that a lot of volume of games and good quality ones at that are being published with them using Construct 3.
I’d like to hear from more experienced Flash users if there’s anything Construct 3 can’t do that Flash could as it would likely be an important feature we’d be keen to add!
It needs to be able to name a platform, media type, IDE, all at once. E.g., "I'm going to use Flash", "It's a Flash game", "Hold on, let me animate it in Flash". The name should be able to go in domain names; e.g., "superfunflashgames.com".
Basically, it has to have a name amiable to becoming an umbrella term. That gave Flash such a "universal" connotation.
I hope this makes sense - trying to convey the _peculiarities_ of "Flash" which made it (as I see it) successfull and distinct in character.
Basically, it has to have a name amiable to becoming an umbrella term. That gave Flash such a "universal" connotation.
I hope this makes sense - trying to convey the _peculiarities_ of "Flash" which made it (as I see it) successfull and distinct in character.
Flash was fundamentally just a file format. You made the format using the program in the same way you make a Photoshop file in Photoshop. It was a noun and a verb because you make thing and both the part that makes and the part made are called the same.
Due to the nature of present browser APIs you cannot name your editor WebGL or something that produces WebGL. But if you made an editor called Sparkle or something that produced .sparkle files that had native browser support you would have the same nomenclature going on. But native browser integration and containerized file formats with external editors aren't a well made match.
Due to the nature of present browser APIs you cannot name your editor WebGL or something that produces WebGL. But if you made an editor called Sparkle or something that produced .sparkle files that had native browser support you would have the same nomenclature going on. But native browser integration and containerized file formats with external editors aren't a well made match.
Why aren’t they a well made match? Isn’t WASM “containerized”? Quotes are not sarcasm.
A game development camp I used to teach at here in Austin, Game World's, uses Construct and it is a fantastic tool that's readily accessible, even to children. Once you get them going with game design concepts, they can really knock out a solid game within a week. I think it's a fantastic platform and seems comparable to flash in ease of use.
Is it a good platform to make animated movies? Can output be distributed as a single shareable file, like .swf?
With the timelines editor theoretically yes, although there's no good easy way to export in a single shareable file (some technical hurdles). Definitely something it's lacking right now.
This comment is pretty misleading. The parts you complain about have little to do with what made Flash a creative sandbox. The parts that do matter have long been replaced with Canvas/WebGL. But the web as a whole has changed. Just like we don't have as many fun quirky geocities-like websites. The issue isn't the lack of Flash, it's that the web as a whole has grown up and changed.
Canvas/WebGL may replace Flash to end users. I'm not aware of creator tools that allow people to put things together as easily as they could using Flash.
Adobe Animate is literally Flash, except it uses standard web technologies like Canvas, JS and WebGL. What's not to like?
Literally everything about animate.
It is hugely bloated and awful to use and crash prone. It takes upwards of 30 seconds to save a file. It has two different kinds of tween to support backwards compatibility. And the "HTML" export is a garbage fire.
Flash used a form of vector graphics that were incompatible with svgs.
Adobe has been trying to maintain backwards compatibility with flash (because most studios were still using the last version macromedia put out over 10 years ago) So adobe animate was always doomed to try and please everyone and end up pissing everyone off.
Adobe has been trying to maintain backwards compatibility with flash (because most studios were still using the last version macromedia put out over 10 years ago) So adobe animate was always doomed to try and please everyone and end up pissing everyone off.
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It's also nowhere near as easy to distribute these games compared to Flash. All you needed with Flash was the swf and as long as you had a flash player then it would work.
What? Everyone these days has a browser. How is it more difficult to share a web game than sharing a flash game? IF anything, back then you often had to install macromedia and other plugins since they didn't always come by default on every computer.
Discovery. Discovery. Discovery.
Sure you can host it on your personal site but who is gonna find it? It has to be on a 3rd party website and that 3rd party website wants some way to monetize it (by showing ads). It's harder to manage many files than one file that a VM can run as is.
Also Flash had something like 98-99% installation base during like 2000-2010 so it was very much not a problem. Flash had a much larger market share than any one browser.
The reason discovery is down isn't because they're hard to find, it's because there's much more interesting "entertainment" on the web these days, such as Youtube, Netflix, Reddit, and other time sinks. Back in the days, Flash games and geocities were the only forms of entertainment, which is why they were so big. Nowadays, we've got amazing free content and games everywhere, which is why this kind of entertainment isn't as sought after anymore. It's not lack of discovery, it's lack of demand.
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> web as a whole has grown up and changed
eh, no it hasnt, and even if it did it would have nothing to do with flash. Flash was a great domain-specific tool for somthing that is significantly more cumbersome to write (and difficult to debug, and less wysiwyg) in canvas. Plus technology is supposed to move forward and 20 years is a geologic timespan in internet years. We expected to have much, much better tools by now, not a barely equivalent
eh, no it hasnt, and even if it did it would have nothing to do with flash. Flash was a great domain-specific tool for somthing that is significantly more cumbersome to write (and difficult to debug, and less wysiwyg) in canvas. Plus technology is supposed to move forward and 20 years is a geologic timespan in internet years. We expected to have much, much better tools by now, not a barely equivalent
Again, the issue isn't the lack of tools. It's the lack of interest. Making games is easier than ever with Unity, yet people don't spend all day playing random small Unity games. We have limited time, and as the types of entertainment increase, we have less and less to spend on small silly things like Flash games.
Back then, a Flash game was the epitome of web entertainment. Now, we have thousands of amazing Youtube videos, Netflix originals, memes, and so on. If you were to give people the same flash games now, they'd find them ridiculously lame.
Back then, a Flash game was the epitome of web entertainment. Now, we have thousands of amazing Youtube videos, Netflix originals, memes, and so on. If you were to give people the same flash games now, they'd find them ridiculously lame.
Unity is not a particularly lightweight thing, and flash wasn't just for games. Its main use was animations / banners and video .
> If you were to give people the same flash games now, they'd find them ridiculously lame.
Some of the most popular social games are like farmville, or some poker games. those are really equivalent of flash
> If you were to give people the same flash games now, they'd find them ridiculously lame.
Some of the most popular social games are like farmville, or some poker games. those are really equivalent of flash
Farmville and Candy Crush were literally flash games. Also many genres like physics games were born from flash.
On Unity I agree. It's never going to have 50kb games that download and start instantly. It's also not particularly easy or good for working with 2D games. I've used both professionally.
On Unity I agree. It's never going to have 50kb games that download and start instantly. It's also not particularly easy or good for working with 2D games. I've used both professionally.
> were literally flash games
thats exactly why i mention them . i meant to say their current html versions are equivalent of their previous flash
thats exactly why i mention them . i meant to say their current html versions are equivalent of their previous flash
Unity also does animation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8NeB10INDo
But it gets really pedantic arguing the semantics of web flash - fundamentally it was only showing on a web page because you installed the browser plugin or it. Today browsers might have stopped supporting arbitrary library plugins like that but now you can write them in webassembly for the same ends. Its just that nobody has actually gone and done it yet.
But it gets really pedantic arguing the semantics of web flash - fundamentally it was only showing on a web page because you installed the browser plugin or it. Today browsers might have stopped supporting arbitrary library plugins like that but now you can write them in webassembly for the same ends. Its just that nobody has actually gone and done it yet.
try to imagine a web page with 3 Unity banners
Except no one plays Farmville anymore, and as Candycrush implied, most flash games were replaced by mobile games. My point was that people are finding their entertainment elsewhere (mobile, youtube, reddit), which is the real cause of Flash's demise (and similar content).
Unity impose hardware constraints that are difficult to overcome in poorer places too. I have an old Dell at home and I won't even try to install Unity on it because it struggles to Windows 10. It's a perfect fine machine for coding with a simple Linux distro.
>Just like we don't have as many fun quirky geocities-like websites. The issue isn't the lack of Flash, it's that the web as a whole has grown up and changed.
We have tons of memes uploaded each day, with crude animations, that could have been 10x easier with flash...
We have tons of memes uploaded each day, with crude animations, that could have been 10x easier with flash...
Is there really a way to do DRM that doesn't involve proprietary pieces somewhere along the way?
I think the modern browser is technologically superior to what and how Flash did things (with the exception of native sockets, which is probably for the better). It's really everyone using Adobe's content creation tools (which were well integrated/designed) that made things so low friction.
It took a long time for the browser technologies to catch up but I wonder if in the end it integrates as one system better than bolting on an open flash spec would have been.
I think the modern browser is technologically superior to what and how Flash did things (with the exception of native sockets, which is probably for the better). It's really everyone using Adobe's content creation tools (which were well integrated/designed) that made things so low friction.
It took a long time for the browser technologies to catch up but I wonder if in the end it integrates as one system better than bolting on an open flash spec would have been.
Do you think we really need DRM, though? I've been using the web without it for a while, and I just boycott sites or services that require it.
More to the point, I think that the current DRM scheme is inherently and completely broken. I could use it and let websites pretend it's useful, but it's not worth the increased quantity of proprietary code to me.
More to the point, I think that the current DRM scheme is inherently and completely broken. I could use it and let websites pretend it's useful, but it's not worth the increased quantity of proprietary code to me.
I don't like DRM myself but there are a very large number of users that like to use services which wouldn't stream content otherwise. Just like any protection mechanism it doesn't have to be perfectly impossible to break to provide value to someone.
The nice thing about the way EME was implemented is if you aren't one of those users you can simply disable Widevine or (if you prefer to not even have proprietary code on your computer) use a build that doesn't include it.
The nice thing about the way EME was implemented is if you aren't one of those users you can simply disable Widevine or (if you prefer to not even have proprietary code on your computer) use a build that doesn't include it.
It doesn't even help, the Pirate bay is filled with Netflix rips despite the DRM.
DRM does exactly what it was meant to do: remove rights from the folks who play by the rules.
The public premise that DRM is about stopping "piracy" was always a lie. Obviously, it can't do that. In fact, DRM encourages piracy by reducing the value of non-pirated versions of things.
DRM exists to control and manipulate regular, honest customers, such as making them watch ads or to pay over and over for different copies of the same thing even when they actually have the legal right to make copies for their own use.
The public premise that DRM is about stopping "piracy" was always a lie. Obviously, it can't do that. In fact, DRM encourages piracy by reducing the value of non-pirated versions of things.
DRM exists to control and manipulate regular, honest customers, such as making them watch ads or to pay over and over for different copies of the same thing even when they actually have the legal right to make copies for their own use.
Yes, because enough content hosts absolutely refuse to make their content available without DRM, and enough users are willing to switch browsers to one that will show that content, that even Mozilla finally gave in after years of fighting against it. In the end they were afraid that they'd lose enough users that they wouldn't be able to continue the project any more. https://hacks.mozilla.org/2014/05/reconciling-mozillas-missi...
>It's really everyone using Adobe's content creation tools (which were well integrated/designed) that made things so low friction.
I really feel like flash's heyday was before adobe bought it up. Most of the best flash sites, newgrounds and stuff were more active and had tons of content while Macromedia still owned flash.
I really feel like flash's heyday was before adobe bought it up. Most of the best flash sites, newgrounds and stuff were more active and had tons of content while Macromedia still owned flash.
>I think the modern browser is technologically superior to what and how Flash did things
Depends on what you mean by superior. There are still things Flash could do and modern “open web” can’t, determining keyboard state (caps lock state and current input language) is one example.
Depends on what you mean by superior. There are still things Flash could do and modern “open web” can’t, determining keyboard state (caps lock state and current input language) is one example.
You can find the SWF spec at:
https://www.adobe.com/devnet/swf.html
Macromedia / Adobe released it quite a bit ago (while Flash was still popular).
Macromedia / Adobe released it quite a bit ago (while Flash was still popular).
To the modern dev end users are cattle, they aren't supposed to make things!
I feel like you can do pretty much everything with HTML5 and JavaScript that you could with Flash and ActionScript. The IDE for Flash had some nice UI abstractions but there's no reason that couldn't happen in a web IDE in 2019.
Distributing your website like a flash file/app as a binary is one missing feature I suppose?
As consumers, most people probably only care about what modern browsers can do. As a developer, the mechanisms become front and center. Modern web development is a Rube Goldberg kluge of things glued together with duct tape. Flash was much more coherent and imposed less cognitive burden of tying it altogether.
Are you intending to reply to me? I agree with you to a certain extent regarding NPM madness.
Not just NPM - the "web" is a diverse set of APIs with various peculiarities. It's not inviting to an artist with little to no programming experience (and even with the potential to learn). That was the advantage/disadvantage of flash - closed system, one (major) IDE, one language/standard library.
> Distributing your website like a flash file/app as a binary is one missing feature I suppose?
Lots of solutions to this:
* SickBeard ran a local web server and the UI ran in your browser.
* Electron / Nwjs
* Whatever Microsoft has planned for Electron (Electron Runtime?)
* That Microsoft compiled HTML format thats defunct mostly (chtml).
As much as everyone hates on the web. Its a consistent UI platform. Not 100% consistent every single time but you can get pretty darn close.
Lots of solutions to this:
* SickBeard ran a local web server and the UI ran in your browser.
* Electron / Nwjs
* Whatever Microsoft has planned for Electron (Electron Runtime?)
* That Microsoft compiled HTML format thats defunct mostly (chtml).
As much as everyone hates on the web. Its a consistent UI platform. Not 100% consistent every single time but you can get pretty darn close.
Naw I mean you could burn a Flash project to a CD ROM and it would auto-play when your grandma stuck it in the "coffee holder."
You can just about do it, but it takes far more CPU time. What happened to efficiency?
I'd need to see some performance metrics to come to that conclusion. "Bloated Flash site loading with a progress indicator for a few seconds" was pretty common and a huge complaint about Flash and its use on the web.
What can flash do that modern browsers can't?
Nothing, of course. Anything that could be done with Flash in its heyday can be done better (in several senses) with modern tools.
But that’s not what we’re talking about, is it? We can ask what’s actually being done in web design these days… and who’s doing it. If you’re old enough to remember the period from the late ’90s to the mid aughts, think about your friends who were putting all kinds of wacky, creative pages on the web. Picture that personality type. What place does it have in the universe of websites that we visit today?
The answer, as far as I’ve seen: user. We spend time on a smaller number of sites/platforms. The design of those sites tends to be (at its best) streamlined and optimized. And people who want to share their creativity are given little frames within that structure.
Even personal websites are usually built through WordPress, Squarespace, or similar. Something has been lost. I’m not going to say things are worse nowadays. That would be too sweeping a judgment, even if I substantially agreed with it, and I think I don’t. But I get this weird feeling when I spend time online, like it’s a tree that died some time ago, but it’s being reinforced, made to stand straighter than ever, given artificial leaves that never turn, etc.
But that’s not what we’re talking about, is it? We can ask what’s actually being done in web design these days… and who’s doing it. If you’re old enough to remember the period from the late ’90s to the mid aughts, think about your friends who were putting all kinds of wacky, creative pages on the web. Picture that personality type. What place does it have in the universe of websites that we visit today?
The answer, as far as I’ve seen: user. We spend time on a smaller number of sites/platforms. The design of those sites tends to be (at its best) streamlined and optimized. And people who want to share their creativity are given little frames within that structure.
Even personal websites are usually built through WordPress, Squarespace, or similar. Something has been lost. I’m not going to say things are worse nowadays. That would be too sweeping a judgment, even if I substantially agreed with it, and I think I don’t. But I get this weird feeling when I spend time online, like it’s a tree that died some time ago, but it’s being reinforced, made to stand straighter than ever, given artificial leaves that never turn, etc.
The people who brought us television were threatened by the internet, and so they are turning it into television.
Talking about this to certain devs is like talking to them about sports. They just don't get the learning curve was the most accessable for the average user, not just those who know how to program.
We know there are better technologies security wise and performance wise. It's not always about what is 'technically' better rather than something that people enjoyed using and opened the door to creative personalities for the web. There is a time and a place for both and I think there has been neglect for the other side of the brain.
We know there are better technologies security wise and performance wise. It's not always about what is 'technically' better rather than something that people enjoyed using and opened the door to creative personalities for the web. There is a time and a place for both and I think there has been neglect for the other side of the brain.
Except the Flash development tools still exist https://www.adobe.com/products/animate.html
> can be done better (in several senses) with modern tools.
contestable. html5 games can be choppy in ways flash was not. even streaming video was pretty fast, comparing it to something like webrtc multi-party video. Hell even basic text-based chat like slack is a resource hog in html.
contestable. html5 games can be choppy in ways flash was not. even streaming video was pretty fast, comparing it to something like webrtc multi-party video. Hell even basic text-based chat like slack is a resource hog in html.
IMO, nothing. What HTML 5 (and more specifically, canvas+js) are lacking is a complete timeframe-based IDE.
I personally find that mode of development distasteful, and I don’t share the author’s affection for this particular breed of "creativity," but anyway it was there and some folks liked it and there’s a real opportunity for someone who wants to reimagine it.
I personally find that mode of development distasteful, and I don’t share the author’s affection for this particular breed of "creativity," but anyway it was there and some folks liked it and there’s a real opportunity for someone who wants to reimagine it.
I do not have experience with pure Flash but with Flex4 that is a powerful GUI for applications. I can share here what I miss from those days:
- you had types, performance was important so you had generic types like Vector , the code was compiled and it was really fast
- there were built-in efficient GUI widgets, you could have a list or table connected to a data provider with tousends of items but the components were smart and only created enough UI widgets as needed to render, where in HTML you either have to create a LI element for all your 10000 elements, create pagination(is not built in), create infinite scrolling(not built-in)
- it was super easy to customize or extend the provided things if you needed , as an example in HTML look at the <select> it is not customizable, everyone has to implement it's own using divs, css and js , but everyone gets it wrong in the corner case(you have issues where the dropdown pops outside the screen, missing events, hell even youtube search box sometimes breaks and the dropdown popup remains stuck open, so even Google engineerscan't create a working dropdown component
- performance, remember when a blinking cursor was causing an electron editor to use a lot of resources , the issue with web is that was designed in rush for showing documents.
- layouting components was super easy , theming was easy - with css in large old projects there are so many issues( I know people use less but this is not standard )
I have some solutions too, browsers need to provide more powerful components, if we want to do RIAs or desktop apps then we need the same components that desktop toolkits offer with the same customization. Other issue I seen was in a project where the devs ahd to import a third party library because the scrollbars can't be themed in all browsers , I am not refering to the right side of the browser ones(I know sme people hate if you change those) but scrollbars on a list or dropdown component. So you have projects where you import 1 lib for scrollbars, 1 lib for modals, 1 for fancy buttons and inputs, 1 for drag and drop, 1 for calendar widgets, 1 for dropdown that allows you to have icon + text, and of course a framework like angular or react . Browsers should check what developers need the most and add that as standard( ex better dropdowns) you would still have the ability to make your own shit and use your preferred framework
- you had types, performance was important so you had generic types like Vector , the code was compiled and it was really fast
- there were built-in efficient GUI widgets, you could have a list or table connected to a data provider with tousends of items but the components were smart and only created enough UI widgets as needed to render, where in HTML you either have to create a LI element for all your 10000 elements, create pagination(is not built in), create infinite scrolling(not built-in)
- it was super easy to customize or extend the provided things if you needed , as an example in HTML look at the <select> it is not customizable, everyone has to implement it's own using divs, css and js , but everyone gets it wrong in the corner case(you have issues where the dropdown pops outside the screen, missing events, hell even youtube search box sometimes breaks and the dropdown popup remains stuck open, so even Google engineerscan't create a working dropdown component
- performance, remember when a blinking cursor was causing an electron editor to use a lot of resources , the issue with web is that was designed in rush for showing documents.
- layouting components was super easy , theming was easy - with css in large old projects there are so many issues( I know people use less but this is not standard )
I have some solutions too, browsers need to provide more powerful components, if we want to do RIAs or desktop apps then we need the same components that desktop toolkits offer with the same customization. Other issue I seen was in a project where the devs ahd to import a third party library because the scrollbars can't be themed in all browsers , I am not refering to the right side of the browser ones(I know sme people hate if you change those) but scrollbars on a list or dropdown component. So you have projects where you import 1 lib for scrollbars, 1 lib for modals, 1 for fancy buttons and inputs, 1 for drag and drop, 1 for calendar widgets, 1 for dropdown that allows you to have icon + text, and of course a framework like angular or react . Browsers should check what developers need the most and add that as standard( ex better dropdowns) you would still have the ability to make your own shit and use your preferred framework
[deleted]
Low barrier to entry, cross browser compatible, multimedia websites.
Someone with artistic talent could quickly learn flash and get something bizarre working very quickly. Drop the minimally skilled into a modern development environment and novelty is much harder. 95% of the time that’s probably a good thing, but it sucked a lot of the fun out of the internet.
Someone with artistic talent could quickly learn flash and get something bizarre working very quickly. Drop the minimally skilled into a modern development environment and novelty is much harder. 95% of the time that’s probably a good thing, but it sucked a lot of the fun out of the internet.
When flash was dominant there was an abundance of vector animations. There isn’t a technical reason this couldn’t still be the case, however we’re in the graphics dark ages right now. Everything is a raster. Everything that isn’t is static or on a very light fixed loop that takes an absurd amount of resources to animate.
The important bits of Flash were not so much the capabilities of the player but the tooling to be creative. Flash found so many niches from animation, games, applications, being embedded for UI rendering and on because it provided an agnostic tool to make all these things in, really easily.
In terms of capabilities though there was much less worry about compatibility.
In terms of capabilities though there was much less worry about compatibility.
Flash was very good at animation interpolation. Basically using math to compress animations while hiding it from the developer.
animated vector graphics? Browsers only have data-intensive pixel graphics codecs. Also, the vector graphics support that they do have is pretty limited and slow. Anyways, I'm glad that flash is dead, because it was proprietary software and constant source for security bugs.
Tooling. I don't think anything fully replaced it. OTOH, while not web things per se, I think Twine, Unity and RPG Maker scratch similar itches for many (but definitely not all) people potentially interested.
> What can flash do that modern browsers can't?
ensuring that the user sees the exact same thing on any browser / operating system combination ?
Just the font rendering differences between windows / mac make it impossible to create text that is supposed to fit perfectly in a given box because hinting differences may mean that you are a few pixels longer which can change the layout of a paragraph, etc...
with flash, there is only one single way things look across all platforms.
ensuring that the user sees the exact same thing on any browser / operating system combination ?
Just the font rendering differences between windows / mac make it impossible to create text that is supposed to fit perfectly in a given box because hinting differences may mean that you are a few pixels longer which can change the layout of a paragraph, etc...
with flash, there is only one single way things look across all platforms.
(Former Flash dev)
A consistent display was a nice thing to count on when making little games, applets and ads. However for general web layout it made accessibility features difficult to impossible to implement.
I'd also add that behaviour wasn't always consistent. There would still be OS/environment specific bugs that would crop up from time to time. (Though granted, these would rarely be related to rendering or layout)
A consistent display was a nice thing to count on when making little games, applets and ads. However for general web layout it made accessibility features difficult to impossible to implement.
I'd also add that behaviour wasn't always consistent. There would still be OS/environment specific bugs that would crop up from time to time. (Though granted, these would rarely be related to rendering or layout)
> However for general web layout
well, that was not the point of flash, was it ?
well, that was not the point of flash, was it ?
Make vector animations with simple clicks and works on every browser.
And make it streamable. No, your fancy JSON over Websocket is not exactly streamable.
And make it streamable. No, your fancy JSON over Websocket is not exactly streamable.
Flash made a lot of things related to vector graphics more accessible. The vector engine was quite powerful, although lacking proper hardware support, it was quite CPU hungry.
Still, I don't think we have an adequate replacement, even it would be technically possible, I don't know about similar tools for vector animations..
Still, I don't think we have an adequate replacement, even it would be technically possible, I don't know about similar tools for vector animations..
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I really think from a business perspective Adobe bungled just about everything with Flash.
When the tide was turning against them with the rise of iOS, they should have full open sourced Flash player and made the authoring tools free to use, and encourage competing authoring tools.
Flash would likely have then been on a track towards full standardization and native support in browsers. Adobe's authoring tools would likely be best-of-breed and indispensable for high end web dev. All the security and performance and interoperability problems could have been solved over time. Flash is not all that different from an SVG to be honest.
One counterpoint to make: Flash sites were to my knowledge static layouts, the very opposite of responsive design. That is a big industry shift that Flash never made.
Instead Adobe threw in the towel and encouraged breaking a large portion of the old internet by deprecating it.
I think moves like these amount to hundred billion dollar drags on the economy. In a sense we're all a little bit poorer as a result. It's like digging a hole and filling it back up again. It's economic activity that benefits no-one.
When the tide was turning against them with the rise of iOS, they should have full open sourced Flash player and made the authoring tools free to use, and encourage competing authoring tools.
Flash would likely have then been on a track towards full standardization and native support in browsers. Adobe's authoring tools would likely be best-of-breed and indispensable for high end web dev. All the security and performance and interoperability problems could have been solved over time. Flash is not all that different from an SVG to be honest.
One counterpoint to make: Flash sites were to my knowledge static layouts, the very opposite of responsive design. That is a big industry shift that Flash never made.
Instead Adobe threw in the towel and encouraged breaking a large portion of the old internet by deprecating it.
I think moves like these amount to hundred billion dollar drags on the economy. In a sense we're all a little bit poorer as a result. It's like digging a hole and filling it back up again. It's economic activity that benefits no-one.
What Adobe destroyed is the community existing around Macromedia products. It was just unprecedented to my knowledge. Most Macromedia solutions were extremely easy to use AND improve via plugins. You could use Javascript to easily create add-ons for Flash, or Fireworks, or Dreamweaver and there was that "community" aspect that did not exist with Adobe product.
And then Macromedia got "Eloped"...
It's crazy how Adobe never leveraged that community and just pissed everybody off then it died out...
There was also that kind of "friendly" competition where teams add to come up with the most bad ass interactive experience and brands had huge budgets to promote this or that product. It was an healthy relationship between marketing and creativity. Everybody even now, remember at least some Flash websites. "2advanced" anybody? Who remembers the design of the web sites they visit today? It's all the same.
Obviously at some point, Flash ads became a nuisance, and mobile kind of killed it in the browser...
> Flash would likely have then been on a track towards full standardization and native support in browsers.
Unfortunately no, because TC39 rejected Ecmascript 4. Ironically, Microsoft who is responsible for Typescript is to blame for that. Because they had their own solution "Silverlight", it was short-sighted.
And then Macromedia got "Eloped"...
It's crazy how Adobe never leveraged that community and just pissed everybody off then it died out...
There was also that kind of "friendly" competition where teams add to come up with the most bad ass interactive experience and brands had huge budgets to promote this or that product. It was an healthy relationship between marketing and creativity. Everybody even now, remember at least some Flash websites. "2advanced" anybody? Who remembers the design of the web sites they visit today? It's all the same.
Obviously at some point, Flash ads became a nuisance, and mobile kind of killed it in the browser...
> Flash would likely have then been on a track towards full standardization and native support in browsers.
Unfortunately no, because TC39 rejected Ecmascript 4. Ironically, Microsoft who is responsible for Typescript is to blame for that. Because they had their own solution "Silverlight", it was short-sighted.
I was in 9th grade when I first came across 2advanced, a time in my life when I was was figuring out what my interests were. Torn between continuing to learn programming and changing course to something that seemed more “creative”, suddenly here was this thing that clearly blended both in a way I hadn’t known was possible. I consider 2a to have been a big influence on me, and to this day I remember the music, sounds, and animations from their v2 and v3 sites crystal-clear.
Yeah, 2advanced.com was a mind-blowing experience the first time I saw it.
Adobe bungled everything about Macromedia. My livelihood was pretty much built around Macromedia during the entire 2000s and I remember how uneasy I was about the Adobe buyout back then. Macromedia conferences were seriously creative and fun and educational and developer friendly, the first year after Adobe took over they turned it into a big marketing event and within a short time span the entire community was killed off. I think back then (and maybe even now) Adobe just saw the web as a publishing platform, whereas Macromedia saw it as a playground.
> Flash sites were to my knowledge static layouts, the very opposite of responsive design. That is a big industry shift that Flash never made.
Adobe Flex did data-driven responsive design just fine. It was the popular framework before es5 and html5 made it obsolete.
Adobe Flex did data-driven responsive design just fine. It was the popular framework before es5 and html5 made it obsolete.
Well,
Adobe claimed that Apple was stopping them from supporting Flash on the original iPhone. When Adobe did finally get Flash (barely) running on Android. It required 1GB of RAM and 1Ghz CPU. The original iPhone had a 400Mhz CPU and 128Mb of RAM.
Adobe was late shipping Flash for the Motorola Xoom. Motorola touted being able to use Flash as a feature over the iPad. Leaving it in the unfortunate situation that you couldn’t even visit the Xoom marketing page running Flash from a Xoom for the first six months.
Adobe could never get Flash working on mobile well.
EDIT: It wasn’t until the iPhone 5 introduced 5 years later in 2012 that there was an iPhone that could have met Adobe’s specs for Flash.
Adobe claimed that Apple was stopping them from supporting Flash on the original iPhone. When Adobe did finally get Flash (barely) running on Android. It required 1GB of RAM and 1Ghz CPU. The original iPhone had a 400Mhz CPU and 128Mb of RAM.
Adobe was late shipping Flash for the Motorola Xoom. Motorola touted being able to use Flash as a feature over the iPad. Leaving it in the unfortunate situation that you couldn’t even visit the Xoom marketing page running Flash from a Xoom for the first six months.
Adobe could never get Flash working on mobile well.
EDIT: It wasn’t until the iPhone 5 introduced 5 years later in 2012 that there was an iPhone that could have met Adobe’s specs for Flash.
Yeah, it wasn’t Apple that killed Flash, it was Adobe. It died the moment Adobe bought Macromedia.
Just think, if Adobe hadn’t bungled Flash or prematurely killed off Fireworks, they could be owning the modern digital design space right now, rather than desperately trying to catch up to Figma and Sketch with XD.
Just think, if Adobe hadn’t bungled Flash or prematurely killed off Fireworks, they could be owning the modern digital design space right now, rather than desperately trying to catch up to Figma and Sketch with XD.
And slowing down the entire design space because of closed PSD format driving out competitions and Photoshop is so slow compared to apps like Affinity Photo as its legacy code must be in the way to employ any radical improvements.
Someone needs to take over this space.
Someone needs to take over this space.
In addition to the above, iirc, there was a variant of Flash called Flash lite that ran the UI of many feature phones for quite a while. It wasn't full flash, though.
I read somewhere that Adobe could not opensource Flash Player due to some library codecs licensing issues. It was unfortunate however, that Adobe bought Macromedia. Macromedia Flash would not have caused wrath from Steve Jobs and Macromedia would have been nimble and motivated to work something out with Apple
> Flash sites were to my knowledge static layouts
Some were, the bad ones, but most were not.
I did a lot Flash back in that time and it was all responsive.
Some were, the bad ones, but most were not.
I did a lot Flash back in that time and it was all responsive.
You can set up a video chat lecture with text chat and pretty good video with the free red5 java server and something like Avchat.com . That's 20 year old tech and works today, but will be removed from the net in a year. There is no HTML5 alternative. Why?
I think Tech took a weird turn somewhere around 2010. Things became more homogeneous, designes became bland without rough edges, literally with rounded corners. Options were removed, defaults became simpler and dumber. Dev tools are more about saving programmers from themselves rather than pushing things to the limit. Flash is probably an example of it
I think Tech took a weird turn somewhere around 2010. Things became more homogeneous, designes became bland without rough edges, literally with rounded corners. Options were removed, defaults became simpler and dumber. Dev tools are more about saving programmers from themselves rather than pushing things to the limit. Flash is probably an example of it
> 2010. ... homogeneous ... bland without rough edges, literally with rounded corners. Options were removed, defaults became simpler and dumber.
This is the result of web devs targeting smart phones. They've made the web suck bending over backwards for the limited abilities of phones to act as computers in both the UI and network sense.
This is the result of web devs targeting smart phones. They've made the web suck bending over backwards for the limited abilities of phones to act as computers in both the UI and network sense.
Unity WebGL is definitely close to where Flash was. If anything WASM adoption is growing, it’s a respected standard. Once there is multi threading, heap expansion and streaming instanciation in iOS ... I’m going to guess 15, or 4 years from now, it’ll be the true spirit of Flash.
I’m not sure about a “dumber” design discipline though. Really it’s Windows developers being left behind, for a while now.
I’m not sure about a “dumber” design discipline though. Really it’s Windows developers being left behind, for a while now.
Sounds about right. Modern technology: working hard to replicate what we had 20+ years ago.
What we had 20 years ago was an insecurable proprietary plugin for web browsers. It wasn't standard, nobody could audit it, it was just a corporate product.
And where we are at now, where Macromedia got bought and Adobe slowly drained its lifeblood and killed its products, is what happens when you try to build systems on top of holistically proprietary foundations. Nobody owes you their enduring survival and you are totally dependent on whoever owns the platform to give you their blessing.
Its a lesson Apple developers often love waxing poetic all over the front page of HN about on the regular.
And where we are at now, where Macromedia got bought and Adobe slowly drained its lifeblood and killed its products, is what happens when you try to build systems on top of holistically proprietary foundations. Nobody owes you their enduring survival and you are totally dependent on whoever owns the platform to give you their blessing.
Its a lesson Apple developers often love waxing poetic all over the front page of HN about on the regular.
I'm not familiar with red5 but it seems that webRTC does a decent job on video and text chat with the browser doing the heavy lifting in terms of encryption and permissions. Am I missing something?
You can set up red5 in a few minutes, at most hours. Replicating a similar setup with something like Janus is a lot more complicated, and there is no HTML5 equivalent
Plus webrtc is proving to be a resource hog every time, and a lot more complicated to set up in an app (separate media / data stream etc). flash/red5 works literally out of the package.
Plus webrtc is proving to be a resource hog every time, and a lot more complicated to set up in an app (separate media / data stream etc). flash/red5 works literally out of the package.
I'm not asking what webRTC does worse - obviously it's going to improve over time, I'm asking what it can't do that flash can.
that misses the point. If its slow and laggy, user is not going to use it and laptops are going to become portable heaters. This is exactly what webRTC does
> obviously it's going to improve over time
When? webrtc is like 10 years old. How long we have to wait to go back to 1999?
> obviously it's going to improve over time
When? webrtc is like 10 years old. How long we have to wait to go back to 1999?
> When? webrtc is like 10 years old.
Well, 8 from initial release. 18 months from first stable release.
Far as I understand it, lag and overheating are hardware/network problems. Considering the amount of development going into both of them, that situation is only going to improve but of course I don't have a roadmap.
FWIW I haven't noticed problems with either and I don't have a mind blowing setup.
I look at what browsers are doing now compared to 1999, there's no way I'd want to go back
Well, 8 from initial release. 18 months from first stable release.
Far as I understand it, lag and overheating are hardware/network problems. Considering the amount of development going into both of them, that situation is only going to improve but of course I don't have a roadmap.
FWIW I haven't noticed problems with either and I don't have a mind blowing setup.
I look at what browsers are doing now compared to 1999, there's no way I'd want to go back
Webrtc is an abomination. The resource usage is plain ridiculous. Compare it to old skype.
WebRTC seems to have less than consistent performance/experience. Red5 shouldn't be able to be on par or out-do it.
Zoom has done some nice stuff in bypassing webrtc and instead using a webassembly connector to move video and audio.
Zoom has done some nice stuff in bypassing webrtc and instead using a webassembly connector to move video and audio.
Maybe nice, but their call quality suffers, the web client is a joke and they just started using webRTC datachannels
This was also before browsers natively supported h.264.
I threw up a livestreaming setup + chat with nginx-rtmp-module, Prosody, Converse.JS and a few lines of javascript in a weekend. I'm not really sure what you're talking about tbh.
i tried converse.js but it hard to integrate in existing userbase, and being xmpp it is introducing unnecessary complication (don't need the pesky @ adresses, groups were impossible to integrate). have not used nginx-rmpt so i dont know how it scales with connections. converse seems to be set up for specific use cases and not very flexible.
I only got into CS because of flash. It was simple to get started. Draw some shapes, add color and start tweening. Point and click got you very interesting animations. Deploying was a swf that worked in a ubiquitous manner. Then I learnt a bit of Actionscript on my own before even learning any sort of formal programming. It was a ton of fun to add event listeners and do basic interaction. I learnt what object oriented programming was. The sprites were the objects and I could program them and create dynamic instances.
I would spend entire holidays messing around in flash obsessively. Also then got into mxml and Flex.
Yeah I then learnt C, Java, JavaScript, Python etc but it wasn’t really as fun as Flash. Flash had progressive unwrapping of complexity. You could create impressive games in Flash quite easily. I learnt a ton by decompiling existing games from miniclip.com (love that site) and changing things to see what effect they had. Kirupa.com was a fantastic resource too.
Oh man. I could talk for hours about Flash and the self learning experiences.
I would spend entire holidays messing around in flash obsessively. Also then got into mxml and Flex.
Yeah I then learnt C, Java, JavaScript, Python etc but it wasn’t really as fun as Flash. Flash had progressive unwrapping of complexity. You could create impressive games in Flash quite easily. I learnt a ton by decompiling existing games from miniclip.com (love that site) and changing things to see what effect they had. Kirupa.com was a fantastic resource too.
Oh man. I could talk for hours about Flash and the self learning experiences.
I got an A in 7th grade biology because I animated the electron transport chain in a little flash movie over a holiday break. I burned the swf onto a CD and gave it to my biology teacher who then showed it on his computer during parent teacher night.
In my personal opinion, Flash was ruined by Adobe when they tried to 'fix' it (improve it?) with ActionScript 3, which followed the ECMA script standard. AS3 changed everything about how flash worked, and if you weren't a software engineer, the learning curve was steep. I actually went and took some basic programming classes (literally in visual basic lol) and learned how to write proper code.
Not a bad thing, but once I learned some of those basics, I no longer had fun toying around with animations and creating, and instead spent my time writing classes and functions. It became a lot harder to 'hack' things together, and, for me, less fun.
And besides that, plenty of real coding tools already existed, and HTML/CSS/JS was improving really quickly as well. So I ended up learning those instead.
All of that was actually great for my design career, but Flash just didn't have a place anymore. And I'm still sad about that.
Not a bad thing, but once I learned some of those basics, I no longer had fun toying around with animations and creating, and instead spent my time writing classes and functions. It became a lot harder to 'hack' things together, and, for me, less fun.
And besides that, plenty of real coding tools already existed, and HTML/CSS/JS was improving really quickly as well. So I ended up learning those instead.
All of that was actually great for my design career, but Flash just didn't have a place anymore. And I'm still sad about that.
> Not a bad thing, but once I learned some of those basics, I no longer had fun toying around with animations and creating, and instead spent my time writing classes and functions. It became a lot harder to 'hack' things together, and, for me, less fun.
I don’t disagree with that but I think it needs to be in the larger context of Adobe being bad at almost everything related to platform support. Their APIs were not well-considered; consistency happened at other companies; the tools were expensive, poorly designed, buggy, and basically unsupported (“The Flash IDE crashes when I do X”. 10 months pass. “Pay $800 for the upgrade and let us know if that fixes it ”), and performance/battery impacts always lagged behind the native alternatives — all of which sucked the fun out of the creative process as you had to take time away for pure drudgery working around Adobe’s slacking.
If at any time they’d invested 10% more on quality and basic software engineering they wouldn’t have had all of their customers looking for alternatives. As we saw, that can be more profitable for a short period but catches up hard.
I don’t disagree with that but I think it needs to be in the larger context of Adobe being bad at almost everything related to platform support. Their APIs were not well-considered; consistency happened at other companies; the tools were expensive, poorly designed, buggy, and basically unsupported (“The Flash IDE crashes when I do X”. 10 months pass. “Pay $800 for the upgrade and let us know if that fixes it ”), and performance/battery impacts always lagged behind the native alternatives — all of which sucked the fun out of the creative process as you had to take time away for pure drudgery working around Adobe’s slacking.
If at any time they’d invested 10% more on quality and basic software engineering they wouldn’t have had all of their customers looking for alternatives. As we saw, that can be more profitable for a short period but catches up hard.
AS3 was indeed a bad investiment given the direction ECMAScript ultimately went, but I do not believe for one second that it contributed to Flash's loss of popularity over time. Learning it after AS2 was easy and it was a much better language/platform to use, not to mention faster.
If anything I applaud Adobe by starting fresh instead of, say, accumulating warts in the language/VM the way Java did.
If anything I applaud Adobe by starting fresh instead of, say, accumulating warts in the language/VM the way Java did.
I actually quite liked the changes in AS3, and it being more programatic, I think it paved the way for what I do now.
After AS3, I remember switching to Flex, and basically using it like any current language. Although I absolutely hated the MXML syntax. I was pretty sad at the time, since AS3 was my main language, but looking back at it now, I think it was for the better.
After AS3, I remember switching to Flex, and basically using it like any current language. Although I absolutely hated the MXML syntax. I was pretty sad at the time, since AS3 was my main language, but looking back at it now, I think it was for the better.
I was a front-end developer during the AS2 -> AS3 -> Flex era. These days, I've been messing with Web Components (via LitElement) and the similarities with Flex/MXML are uncanny.
You're right, and it feels very similar to what we have in Vue/React these days. How are you liking Web Components?
I've enjoyed Web Components; using LitElement (a WC subclass) feels like writing React with native browser APIs. Working with the browser instead of hacking around it.
Good to hear, I was thinking about using Vue for a new project, but now decided to give Web Components (LitElement) a try. I didn't really need all the SPA functionality anyway, just wanted small and fast components.
Ping me on Twitter (@hunterloftis) if you have questions while working on your project. The community around WC/LitElement is small relative to Vue/React but amazingly responsive.
AS3 was literally the best thing that ever happened to Flash. The problems with Flash had nothing to do with the actual tech (aside from security) and everything to do with product management. It's just a shame that AS3 came so late in the Flash lifecycle.
This one got me in the feels man. Same.
Does anyone here remember an old DOS program called Cartooners [1]?
It let you do animated shorts with predefined characters, different backgrounds, music, speech bubbles, etc. I used to love playing around with that as a teenager.
I found the workflow ingenious: You placed a character on the screen, selected what action you wanted it to perform (like ‘Walk’), I think you selected how you wanted it to move, then you held down the REC button and watched the character act as the animation was being ‘recorded’. To do something new, you just stopped recording, set the character up for the next action, move, etc, then do the whole REC thing again. Repeat this as needed.
Adding another character? Scrub back to where you wanted that character to appear and repeat the above process.
New background? Scrub to where you wanted the new background to appear, set the background and then ‘record’ over the old one.
It was similar for everything. Put a speech bubble down where you wanted it, hold down ‘REC’ for as long as you wanted it on the screen, then just remove it and record further as needed.
It was so damn intuitive. Never seen anything quite like it since and I’d love to know if there’s a clone of it or something out there that I’ve missed!
[1] https://archive.org/details/msdos_Cartooners_1989
It let you do animated shorts with predefined characters, different backgrounds, music, speech bubbles, etc. I used to love playing around with that as a teenager.
I found the workflow ingenious: You placed a character on the screen, selected what action you wanted it to perform (like ‘Walk’), I think you selected how you wanted it to move, then you held down the REC button and watched the character act as the animation was being ‘recorded’. To do something new, you just stopped recording, set the character up for the next action, move, etc, then do the whole REC thing again. Repeat this as needed.
Adding another character? Scrub back to where you wanted that character to appear and repeat the above process.
New background? Scrub to where you wanted the new background to appear, set the background and then ‘record’ over the old one.
It was similar for everything. Put a speech bubble down where you wanted it, hold down ‘REC’ for as long as you wanted it on the screen, then just remove it and record further as needed.
It was so damn intuitive. Never seen anything quite like it since and I’d love to know if there’s a clone of it or something out there that I’ve missed!
[1] https://archive.org/details/msdos_Cartooners_1989
The scrubbing features remind me of Microsoft 3D movie maker which was a Win 95-era product that had the same easy approach, but with 3d characters.
People are looking back with rose tinted glasses, I think. This was an era where you could build rich media with absolute canvas values and it would look great and it was easy for an artist to take that canvas and do things.
The iPhone killed flash but not just in the obvious way. These days everything needs to be reactive and run on well on mobile hardware. Even if iOS supported flash it would need to be a different beast. Different screen sizes, an explosion of aspect rations, heavier security requirements, accessibility, touch controls and more led to the downfall.
The iPhone killed flash but not just in the obvious way. These days everything needs to be reactive and run on well on mobile hardware. Even if iOS supported flash it would need to be a different beast. Different screen sizes, an explosion of aspect rations, heavier security requirements, accessibility, touch controls and more led to the downfall.
I remember sideloading the Flash Player APK on my Android phone around 2013 (they stopped official support in 4.1) and most of the Flash content was effectively unusable even then.
Pecking on a tiny video player with your finger to change volume, quality, or playback position was a terrible experience and the battery drain wasn't great either. Watching videos outside of YouTube was a terrible time for phone users before sites transitioned to HTML5.
Pecking on a tiny video player with your finger to change volume, quality, or playback position was a terrible experience and the battery drain wasn't great either. Watching videos outside of YouTube was a terrible time for phone users before sites transitioned to HTML5.
Adobe Air could produce executables iOS and many other operating systems and environments. I have seen many successful mobile games done with Air. Flash Player is a virtual machine and swf is compiled bytecode. It could be ported to any hardware and OS. Death of Flash is not technical, it is political. SWF format and Flash Player is proprietary. They chose to kill it instead of supporting someone else's technology.
We're.... misattributing some things here, I think.
Flash was a bundle of good things and bad things, as we all more or less agree. Good for creativity, bad for usability and accessibility and security, etc.
You could, obviously, do so many things in Flash that were impossible with web standards.
But, why was there such a gap between what you could do in Flash and what you could do with web standards? Why was Flash even necessary?
This was due in large part to how Microsoft acquired a stranglehold on the web right as it was beginning to really take off -- IE4, IE5, and IE6 were the defacto standards, and Microsoft used them to quash innovation on the web as they (successfully) tried to hold on to their desktop software business for another decade or so.
Perhaps we haven't lived through the worst possible timeline, but there was certainly a better outcome possible - where Microsoft didn't stifle innovation on the web for close to a decade.
(And now, of course, we're approaching another dark age as Google heads toward IE6-like market share....)
Flash was a bundle of good things and bad things, as we all more or less agree. Good for creativity, bad for usability and accessibility and security, etc.
You could, obviously, do so many things in Flash that were impossible with web standards.
But, why was there such a gap between what you could do in Flash and what you could do with web standards? Why was Flash even necessary?
This was due in large part to how Microsoft acquired a stranglehold on the web right as it was beginning to really take off -- IE4, IE5, and IE6 were the defacto standards, and Microsoft used them to quash innovation on the web as they (successfully) tried to hold on to their desktop software business for another decade or so.
Perhaps we haven't lived through the worst possible timeline, but there was certainly a better outcome possible - where Microsoft didn't stifle innovation on the web for close to a decade.
(And now, of course, we're approaching another dark age as Google heads toward IE6-like market share....)
> Microsoft used them to quash innovation on the web
Microsoft didn't "quash" any innovation, the ActiveX framework allows more innovation than any other browser on the market, Flash was invented as an ActiveX plugin, so does AJAX and it started the whole Web 2.0 era. IE had so much incredible feature that it makes modern looks like a dull corporate utility. We had VRML and vector graphics. We can playback videos with IMG tags. Heck we can even embed the mighty DirectX on Web. Chrome basically re-invented everything we already had with dHTML in the 90s.
Microsoft didn't took down ad blockers by crippling the API. In fact there's innovative abuse problem with IE, think all those toolbars!
Microsoft didn't "quash" any innovation, the ActiveX framework allows more innovation than any other browser on the market, Flash was invented as an ActiveX plugin, so does AJAX and it started the whole Web 2.0 era. IE had so much incredible feature that it makes modern looks like a dull corporate utility. We had VRML and vector graphics. We can playback videos with IMG tags. Heck we can even embed the mighty DirectX on Web. Chrome basically re-invented everything we already had with dHTML in the 90s.
Microsoft didn't took down ad blockers by crippling the API. In fact there's innovative abuse problem with IE, think all those toolbars!
Do not forget vml. The more superior version of SVG. Sigh.
Flash had a VM that truly was "write once, run on anything" and a great (software) pixel and vector renderer. Cross-browser compatibility with HTML standards was completely bonkers and HTML had none of the features Flash Games and Animations needed. Try to move or rotate a picture at 30 fps with old HTML.
I remember Flash being slow and buggy on Mac and Linux at the time, and updates lagged far behind the Windows version (on Linux in particular). And then I saw an article from a Macromedia/Adobe dev saying that it was heavily optimized x86 assembly code targeted towards Windows and very difficult to port to other platforms... given the IE6 monoculture at the time, it made sense, but I felt like a redheaded stepchild for daring to use a minority OS.
I don't think it was 64-bit clean, either, so now no modern device runs Flash "natively."
I don't think it was 64-bit clean, either, so now no modern device runs Flash "natively."
Definitely true. Most game engines still have poor Linux (and often Mac) support.
Had Adobe bought Goowy Desktop, Adobe could have launched their own iPad or iPhone of sorts. Maybe even a desktop.
Instead AOL bought them and realized that was a mistake.
Instead AOL bought them and realized that was a mistake.
I might have missed a few names, but I'd like to contribute a list of folks and sites from the old Flash community who seemed like rock stars (in order of how much I idolized them).
Once I typed it up, I realized it was all dudes, so let me first link to https://flashgoddess.com/spotlight/ , who shone a spotlight on the women who worked in the same space. (Shoutout to Lisa Larson-Kelley, fellow alumnus of FlashCodersNY, and Stacey Mulcahy, whose hilarious AS2-to-AS3 migration talk was fucking awesome!)
If you wish to view any of these links, I recommend pasting them into web.archive.org and setting the Wayback to the mid-to-late 2000's.
mrdoob.com (Mr. doob, later created three.js) audiotool.com, lab.andre-michelle.com (Andre Michelle) wefail.com (Jordan Stone, Martin Hughes) gskinner.com (Grant Skinner, later created EaselJS, etc) quasimondo.com (Mario Klingemann) bytearray.org (Thibault Imbert) bit-101.com (Keith Peters) vectorpark.com (Patrick Smith) hoogerbrugge.com (Han Hoogerbrugge) levitated.net (Jared Tarbell) blog.joa-ebert.com (Joa Ebert (also audiotool)) orisinal.com (Ferry Halim) hospital.apoka.com (Edouard Artus) kirupa.com (Kirupa Chinnathambi) mosessupposes.com (Moses Gunesch) gotoandlearn.com, theflashblog.com (Lee Brimelow)
Most of these folks also spoke at tech events, sharing techniques and hard-learned lessons. Like that time when Wefail gave a talk that took a memorably heavy shit on Jakob Nielsen. Hell yes.
Also worth noting the HBO Voyeur promotional site made by Big Spaceship: archive.bigspaceship.com/hbovoyeur
The Flash community was creative and groundbreaking as hell. Most of the folks who criticized it for being proprietary and insecure are lifelong users of proprietary, insecure platforms; the worst aspects of the Flash-equipped web linger still, namely ads, inaccessibility and site bloat; and let's face it, as capable as the modern web client stack is, it's lost so much ground to the walled garden platforms, that Steve Jobs's 2010 agenda can no longer be seen as anything but duplicitous.
Godspeed, FutureSplash! You were to good for this web.
Once I typed it up, I realized it was all dudes, so let me first link to https://flashgoddess.com/spotlight/ , who shone a spotlight on the women who worked in the same space. (Shoutout to Lisa Larson-Kelley, fellow alumnus of FlashCodersNY, and Stacey Mulcahy, whose hilarious AS2-to-AS3 migration talk was fucking awesome!)
If you wish to view any of these links, I recommend pasting them into web.archive.org and setting the Wayback to the mid-to-late 2000's.
mrdoob.com (Mr. doob, later created three.js) audiotool.com, lab.andre-michelle.com (Andre Michelle) wefail.com (Jordan Stone, Martin Hughes) gskinner.com (Grant Skinner, later created EaselJS, etc) quasimondo.com (Mario Klingemann) bytearray.org (Thibault Imbert) bit-101.com (Keith Peters) vectorpark.com (Patrick Smith) hoogerbrugge.com (Han Hoogerbrugge) levitated.net (Jared Tarbell) blog.joa-ebert.com (Joa Ebert (also audiotool)) orisinal.com (Ferry Halim) hospital.apoka.com (Edouard Artus) kirupa.com (Kirupa Chinnathambi) mosessupposes.com (Moses Gunesch) gotoandlearn.com, theflashblog.com (Lee Brimelow)
Most of these folks also spoke at tech events, sharing techniques and hard-learned lessons. Like that time when Wefail gave a talk that took a memorably heavy shit on Jakob Nielsen. Hell yes.
Also worth noting the HBO Voyeur promotional site made by Big Spaceship: archive.bigspaceship.com/hbovoyeur
The Flash community was creative and groundbreaking as hell. Most of the folks who criticized it for being proprietary and insecure are lifelong users of proprietary, insecure platforms; the worst aspects of the Flash-equipped web linger still, namely ads, inaccessibility and site bloat; and let's face it, as capable as the modern web client stack is, it's lost so much ground to the walled garden platforms, that Steve Jobs's 2010 agenda can no longer be seen as anything but duplicitous.
Godspeed, FutureSplash! You were to good for this web.
All of that and no 2Advanced
I made games in flash for over a decade and miss the ease of dropping an experimental game idea onto the web where everyone could enjoy it. If you had a free weekend, you could release a game to 99% of the internet.
JavaScript game libs simply aren't as featureful, even the ones promising the scenegraph API. They don't work as well cross platform (by the end of that decade I had one codebase which could deploy to web, iOS, and Android); and that's where the audience has headed.
I hope this book spends some time on flash's contribution to video game design as well as web design.
JavaScript game libs simply aren't as featureful, even the ones promising the scenegraph API. They don't work as well cross platform (by the end of that decade I had one codebase which could deploy to web, iOS, and Android); and that's where the audience has headed.
I hope this book spends some time on flash's contribution to video game design as well as web design.
You can make a game today in Godot / Unity, export to HTML5, and drop it on itch.io to play in browser in minutes.
also thousands of games made with pico8 on the net live. Sure pico-8 is not a replacement for flash but people are posting live games and they are making them quickly. Celeste, one of the top 10 games last year on many lists, started as a pico8 prototype live on the web.
Also flash never worked cross platform in the modern sense (phones + tablets + desktop). It's a very hard problem and no system I know of handles it automatically for anything more than simple HTML text forms
Also flash never worked cross platform in the modern sense (phones + tablets + desktop). It's a very hard problem and no system I know of handles it automatically for anything more than simple HTML text forms
Lots of good points made, I'll add mine.
Flash got me started in web design as a kid and put me on a path to earning a good living. Lots of things changed since then but I want to hear your thoughts on one specifically.
It used to be cool to try things and put something together that in the grand scheme of things is kind of bad. I get the feeling that's not the case anymore.
Seems like there's so much pressure to sell the image of you being an expert, there is no room to try wild things and see what happens - which is the basis for learning and development btw. What we get then is everyone copying the "expert" patterns, but hardly anyone doing anything original or truly creative, because it feels risky.
This is probably true for a lot of other creative endeavours that have big $ behind them - the movie industry comes to mind. Sure, there are more movies being made now than ever, but it sure as hell doesn't feel like we're in the most creative era and you know it's got nothing to do with the tools.
Someone please tell me otherwise.
Flash got me started in web design as a kid and put me on a path to earning a good living. Lots of things changed since then but I want to hear your thoughts on one specifically.
It used to be cool to try things and put something together that in the grand scheme of things is kind of bad. I get the feeling that's not the case anymore.
Seems like there's so much pressure to sell the image of you being an expert, there is no room to try wild things and see what happens - which is the basis for learning and development btw. What we get then is everyone copying the "expert" patterns, but hardly anyone doing anything original or truly creative, because it feels risky.
This is probably true for a lot of other creative endeavours that have big $ behind them - the movie industry comes to mind. Sure, there are more movies being made now than ever, but it sure as hell doesn't feel like we're in the most creative era and you know it's got nothing to do with the tools.
Someone please tell me otherwise.
I feel bad for people coming of age now in the world of programming. There's a lot of pressure to follow the best practices and they sure as heck don't involve an easy way to draw a Z colored pixel at coordinate (X, Y). Or to coax a programmed beep out of the speaker. Which is basically how I learned 50% of programming.
You don't really get that visceral moment of magic reaction from web technologies or super polished game engines which is where that happens now.
You don't really get that visceral moment of magic reaction from web technologies or super polished game engines which is where that happens now.
I think it has to do with the commoditization of image. In the early Internet we didn't have centralized social media so going to a new place and experimenting didn't have ramifications across your social circles via platforms attached to your real name. You could make "bad" stick figure cartoons by night while working a "respectable" career by day and nobody would know who you are either way.
I feel terrible for kids today - they grow up into social media not knowing what it is, and by the time they can comprehend it their creativity has been stifled for years by the implied pressures of conformity and a cultural disapproval of failure.
But theres some nostalgia in that too - its not like every 80s and 90s kid was sitting in a computer lab inventing the next tower defense game. It has always been a tiny minority of kids that get creative from a young age, and if anything the continued availability and quantity of entertainment can serve to keep kids occupied with consumption rather than creation more today than ever before.
I feel terrible for kids today - they grow up into social media not knowing what it is, and by the time they can comprehend it their creativity has been stifled for years by the implied pressures of conformity and a cultural disapproval of failure.
But theres some nostalgia in that too - its not like every 80s and 90s kid was sitting in a computer lab inventing the next tower defense game. It has always been a tiny minority of kids that get creative from a young age, and if anything the continued availability and quantity of entertainment can serve to keep kids occupied with consumption rather than creation more today than ever before.
Flash sites were creative, in that they were occasionally built by people with amazing talent and great skill.
Most of the time, though, Flash was the multimedia CD-ROM of the web. Flash was an extension shoehorned in, didn't feel like the rest of the web, and didn't deeply integrate with the browsing experience.
Flash content was an alien rectangle, a wormhole into a strange dimension, where a mouse click would often not behave anything like a mouse click usually would.
Flash pretended to be on the web, but Flash was not of the web. That's why it's now gone.
Most of the time, though, Flash was the multimedia CD-ROM of the web. Flash was an extension shoehorned in, didn't feel like the rest of the web, and didn't deeply integrate with the browsing experience.
Flash content was an alien rectangle, a wormhole into a strange dimension, where a mouse click would often not behave anything like a mouse click usually would.
Flash pretended to be on the web, but Flash was not of the web. That's why it's now gone.
Heh, this is really a matter of perspective. If you think the rest of the web was wonderful, then Flash was a turd floating in a swimming pool. If you think the web is a poorly designed shoddy mess, then you might think Flash was a raft keeping you afloat in the sewer.
HTML and JavaScript are so sloppy and incrementally improved by accretion rather than taste, I lean towards the sewer point of view.
HTML and JavaScript are so sloppy and incrementally improved by accretion rather than taste, I lean towards the sewer point of view.
I couldn't stand the lack of bookmarking, history, back and forward buttons, the use of sounds and music, and lack of ability to view source.
As a former Flash dev that worked through those glory days, I tend to agree. The format was just a lot more open and less restrictive in what you could do - especially compared with the early web. We built a lot of different things with it, including games and animations.
Contrast that with the first pure HTML sites I created, which were built with tables and frames. I shudder thinking back at some of those sites, which were an absolute clusterfuck of nested tables. Flash was like a playground compared to the restrictive environment of building in HTML and CSS in those days, and it seemed like every client project I worked on was very different in its function and UX.
Fast-forward to today, and even with what we can do with modern web technologies, if you look at many sites these days, they're all pretty much the same - especially if they're sales sites. They all use a very familiar cookie-cutter style format. You know the sites I'm talking about; top nav bar, hero image with a wanky quote, 3-block row outlining the nifty features, a call-to-action button etc.
Don't get me wrong, I've seen some beautiful sites come about in the post-Flash era, and some pretty nifty effects (parallax movement seemed to gain a lot of popularity for a time). I think that modern web design really just shows how far we've come in terms of optimisation.
And there's nothing wrong with that. Most of this has come about because we've all spent collective time and effort to get here and discovered what works best for users (in most cases) what converts sales the easiest, etc. It's a culmination of the evolution of tooling, frameworks, boilerplates and various styles we've all built with along the way that continues to evolve.
We know through other mediums and media that users like familiarity (The Mere-exposure effect - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere-exposure_effect), and so, the web ends up all looking the same as well because more familiarity equals fewer barriers and distractions and hopefully more sales/conversions/eyeballs.
Contrast that with the first pure HTML sites I created, which were built with tables and frames. I shudder thinking back at some of those sites, which were an absolute clusterfuck of nested tables. Flash was like a playground compared to the restrictive environment of building in HTML and CSS in those days, and it seemed like every client project I worked on was very different in its function and UX.
Fast-forward to today, and even with what we can do with modern web technologies, if you look at many sites these days, they're all pretty much the same - especially if they're sales sites. They all use a very familiar cookie-cutter style format. You know the sites I'm talking about; top nav bar, hero image with a wanky quote, 3-block row outlining the nifty features, a call-to-action button etc.
Don't get me wrong, I've seen some beautiful sites come about in the post-Flash era, and some pretty nifty effects (parallax movement seemed to gain a lot of popularity for a time). I think that modern web design really just shows how far we've come in terms of optimisation.
And there's nothing wrong with that. Most of this has come about because we've all spent collective time and effort to get here and discovered what works best for users (in most cases) what converts sales the easiest, etc. It's a culmination of the evolution of tooling, frameworks, boilerplates and various styles we've all built with along the way that continues to evolve.
We know through other mediums and media that users like familiarity (The Mere-exposure effect - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere-exposure_effect), and so, the web ends up all looking the same as well because more familiarity equals fewer barriers and distractions and hopefully more sales/conversions/eyeballs.
Nobody has mentioned Youtube using Flash initially to create the experience of ‘it just works.’
We had RealPlayer, Quicktime, and others, but video on the web was rather difficult.
We had RealPlayer, Quicktime, and others, but video on the web was rather difficult.
I couldn't possibly agree more with this article. It is still possible to do the kinds of things that Flash did now-a-days with HTML5 canvas, but it requires a lot more programming abilities than Flash required.
Websites for design firms were literal masterpieces. Now, those same firms have beautiful, yet predictable, websites.
The user experience was entirely unique from site to site. No side vertical stack of buttons, no top nav bar. Designers back then encouraged exploration. You just don't see that anymore.
Overall, websites are way better now. But we have certainly lost something as the entire web has become commoditized and homogenized. No one is willing to take risks anymore. The late 90s and 2000's was a different kind of internet than it is now, for sure.
Websites for design firms were literal masterpieces. Now, those same firms have beautiful, yet predictable, websites.
The user experience was entirely unique from site to site. No side vertical stack of buttons, no top nav bar. Designers back then encouraged exploration. You just don't see that anymore.
Overall, websites are way better now. But we have certainly lost something as the entire web has become commoditized and homogenized. No one is willing to take risks anymore. The late 90s and 2000's was a different kind of internet than it is now, for sure.
But there is far more competition than there was before. People have devices allowing them shorter attention span to get to value than before.
This change is not only because of the loss of flash.
This change is not only because of the loss of flash.
The people competing are the top 3 companies who won the race. The rest have quit trying and are just copying them. There is far less competition, the internet became an oligopoly
I think Flash has been unfairly maligned. I agree that its era is over. But the functionality it provided, at the time it was available, paved the way for a lot of good features on the Web, including YouTube and many interactive websites that work more like applications--now of course implemented in HTML and JavaScript/WebAssembly.
The bad thing about being "creative" on the web is it not being obvious how to use your site. I remember back in the day a lot of website using Flash only that were like this.
When I was a teenager I wrote a couple flash games with actionscript. I think the biggest thing about flash, asides from running consistently on all platforms, was how simple it was to build functional stuff on it. Adobe's Flash Professional had a nice monolithic IDE that worked out of the box and included visual design aids.
I was going to add how I'm surprised that no one is trying to emulate it in js or wasm but I appear to be wrong. someone on Newgrounds is doing just that:
https://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/1444275
https://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic/1444275
There was an effort to run Flash using JS by Mozilla, called
Shumway, now in Mozilla Graveyard.
https://github.com/mozilla/shumway
https://github.com/mozilla/shumway
My wife and I both grew up in the era of Flash on the web. We were both inspired by it, I became a developer because I wanted to make games like the ones I played that were built on Flash, my wife became an animator and designer because of the cool animations she could find and create using it.
The death of Flash meant the death of her childhood and while I still make my living developing for and on the web - my wife has basically been locked out of it because she hasn't been able to find anything "modern" that really takes Flashes place. She can write HTML and simple CSS, and even tweak tiny bits of Javascript or even PHP here and there but nothing at the level of expressivity that she could do with Flash.
Ultimately, the death of Flash was the death of our childhood.
The death of Flash meant the death of her childhood and while I still make my living developing for and on the web - my wife has basically been locked out of it because she hasn't been able to find anything "modern" that really takes Flashes place. She can write HTML and simple CSS, and even tweak tiny bits of Javascript or even PHP here and there but nothing at the level of expressivity that she could do with Flash.
Ultimately, the death of Flash was the death of our childhood.
It is very, very silly to suggest the Flash era was more creative than the YouTube/indie-game era.
In general, the Web is more commercialized now, so creative content doesn't always rise to the top, and there are incentives to be a low-quality content factory.
But there are thousands or millions of online videos (some, like Flash, are animated) and indie games on major platforms that are just as creative as the most experimental, interesting stuff on Newgrounds.
In general, the Web is more commercialized now, so creative content doesn't always rise to the top, and there are incentives to be a low-quality content factory.
But there are thousands or millions of online videos (some, like Flash, are animated) and indie games on major platforms that are just as creative as the most experimental, interesting stuff on Newgrounds.
youtube and indie games literally started as flash
What does that have to do with my comment?
Flash was a platform for games and video. Now we have much, much larger platforms with more contributors and more consumers. There's likely more than one order of magnitude more content being produced now than 15 years ago.
It's possible that the average level of creativity has gone down, but the amount of highly creative output has surely gone way, way up.
Flash was a platform for games and video. Now we have much, much larger platforms with more contributors and more consumers. There's likely more than one order of magnitude more content being produced now than 15 years ago.
It's possible that the average level of creativity has gone down, but the amount of highly creative output has surely gone way, way up.
Flash was a perfect example of "this is why we can't have nice things". As a platform for web mini-games or self-contained interactive animations, it remains unparalleled.
As a tool for building whole websites meant to convey information, it was always shit. If lazy web developers hadn't collectively abused flash to make annoying websites and dumb ads, perhaps we could still have fun flash games on the web today.
As a tool for building whole websites meant to convey information, it was always shit. If lazy web developers hadn't collectively abused flash to make annoying websites and dumb ads, perhaps we could still have fun flash games on the web today.
Amen to this. At my job we create training content. In the Flash era we had a team of animators that created the greatest content. Our clients in Asia especially loved our content. Then the iPad came out. Overnight all of our clients decided that they were going to use iPads for training (we were training sales associates who previously had to use a manager's computer in a back room, now with iPads they could train on the sales floor). Of course, the iPad doesn't support flash. So we moved from awesome animations to plain text and images web pages with a few short videos for really important content. This is still what we are doing. At this point these is no chance of going back to the time of web animations, and I think it is a real shame. Content now sucks big time.
Why has nobody been able to build a Flash clone to create content for the canvas element? I've looked at Adobe Animate and it is nowhere near being in the same class as Flash.
Why has nobody been able to build a Flash clone to create content for the canvas element? I've looked at Adobe Animate and it is nowhere near being in the same class as Flash.
Flash was special even without the UI experiments. Flash allowed the creation of vector-based movies with tiny filesizes that accommodated the miniscule internet bandwidth of the early 2000s. The vectorized nature means videos created and uploaded scale almost perfectly to modern resolutions, even 4K.
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BTW, for all the elderly ;) HNers, the mid-twenties came of age during the golden age of Flash, which almost defined the internet at that point in time. Dammit, I'm getting teary-eyed. It was elementary, junior, and high-school for me. Many memories of consuming content through Flash, AND also PRODUCING content with flash. Learning how to program with pirated versions of then-Macromedia's flagship product - now working at... the company that proved old dogs can (sort of) learn new tricks ;). Perhaps it's analogous to a Commodore 64 or something for the older guys, hahaha.
There were dozens of sites dedicated to flash tutorials and getting started for amateurs. It was a highly focused _creative_ environment with low barrier to entry. It allowed and encouraged cross pollination.
Flash was a drawing program, Animation, IDE, Game Development, Web development even audio and video editing, with no clear lines between any of the functions.
It was a one stop shop for creative expression with thousands of people learning the program and excited to share their knowledge.
Nothing does what flash did, because flash did everything and everyone was using it.
It was a one stop shop for creative expression with thousands of people learning the program and excited to share their knowledge.
Nothing does what flash did, because flash did everything and everyone was using it.
It's a good piece (and damn it, book added to basket - that looks ace...) but I think it's confusing to suggest Flash was the [only] creative bit. What was truly creative / inspiring / enabling in the 90's / 00's IMO was the fact you could see something someone had made and then view source and see how they made it. Then with cheap or free tools you could edit locally, fiddle with it, upload to a cheap host if you wanted. This is clearly the opposite of what Flash gave us which was a black box with no way of seeing inside.
Nowadays you've got no chance of working out what a site is doing or how it's working - view source is a litter of external resources which you've got to follow until hell freezes over. And apparently now you've got to brew-grunt-git-node-fuckknowswhatelse in order to get anything running at all.
I'm an old git and it's hackneyed to say it but I miss the simpler old days. I'm really hoping the Javascript trend dies quickly so beginners / amateurs can get back in the game.
Now: Flash: what's interesting to me is that what Flash offered genuinely doesn't seem to be a thing that can be done any more. We do a lot of rich content work and frequently get asked about making online experiences to help explain concepts or ideas as infographics or games. Flash was may bad things, but the universality and really easy to use building tools just don't seem to have been replaced by anything comparable. Or maybe I've missed it?
Nowadays you've got no chance of working out what a site is doing or how it's working - view source is a litter of external resources which you've got to follow until hell freezes over. And apparently now you've got to brew-grunt-git-node-fuckknowswhatelse in order to get anything running at all.
I'm an old git and it's hackneyed to say it but I miss the simpler old days. I'm really hoping the Javascript trend dies quickly so beginners / amateurs can get back in the game.
Now: Flash: what's interesting to me is that what Flash offered genuinely doesn't seem to be a thing that can be done any more. We do a lot of rich content work and frequently get asked about making online experiences to help explain concepts or ideas as infographics or games. Flash was may bad things, but the universality and really easy to use building tools just don't seem to have been replaced by anything comparable. Or maybe I've missed it?
Thank god someone is saying it. ActionScript 3 was my first programming language! Without flash (and I know the many reasons for its extinction), there's nothing that truly "bundles" an interactive experience altogether into one little file, which plays in just one little box. To be honest, "responsive" concerns shouldn't be the job of the creative. That's an external concern. Video games generally simply scale graphics to fit the screen using a simple algorithm and that's that. But when you design, for example, games on the web, you have the luxury of fine-grained adjustment based on browser, resolution, DPI, etc. But that freedom is exactly what creates an ambiguous "boundary" for internet games. They aren't guaranteed to fit in this 800x600 div that *'s games portal site requires.
In short, I think that the open & open-ended, non-strict support-all-the-technologies nature of the web is too free for creative production. There's too much. There's a known principle that limitations are crucial to creative expression to the same degree the "tools" and "medium" are. We need an open-source spiritual successor to flash which utilizes the wonder web ecosystem but exposes a more constrained API so that games/interactive experiences are portable and to an extent LIMITED again.
In short, I think that the open & open-ended, non-strict support-all-the-technologies nature of the web is too free for creative production. There's too much. There's a known principle that limitations are crucial to creative expression to the same degree the "tools" and "medium" are. We need an open-source spiritual successor to flash which utilizes the wonder web ecosystem but exposes a more constrained API so that games/interactive experiences are portable and to an extent LIMITED again.
It was Steve Jobs' "Thoughts on Flash" essay that really turned the tide on Flash. Flash, as a direct threat to the gigantic revenue stream that was the Apple Store, could not be put on the iPhone. I immediately saw that essay for what it was, and didn't pay much attention. Rather than say "Flash threatens Apple's revenue" Jobs' had to employ FUD.
But within a day, Wired magazine published an op-ed masquerading as a factual article, hating on Flash; and never stopped that drumbeat. "Flash. Must. Die." it (literally) wrote.
And then, it was a total pile-on. No "serious programmer" would go anywhere near it, nor admit that there was anything positive about it at all. One could not mention Flash without devs asserting loudly that it was "riddled with security holes" (always "riddled", always "security holes").
I learned some lessons that year, about tech, devs, corporations and people.
But within a day, Wired magazine published an op-ed masquerading as a factual article, hating on Flash; and never stopped that drumbeat. "Flash. Must. Die." it (literally) wrote.
And then, it was a total pile-on. No "serious programmer" would go anywhere near it, nor admit that there was anything positive about it at all. One could not mention Flash without devs asserting loudly that it was "riddled with security holes" (always "riddled", always "security holes").
I learned some lessons that year, about tech, devs, corporations and people.
Flash is the reason I’m a developer. I’m a self studies software developer. I wanted to become a screen designer in the early 2000 but also liked to bring the pages I designed to life. JavaScript for interactive content was impossible to use for me. I stumbled upon flash and was hooked. I started of with simple timeline animations, learned to structure and control the whole player from one script file. Learned basic OOP concepts and with AS3 the lot of OOP paradigms and patterns etc. I had a 3 year fun period with Flex and moved finally to mobile development. I never regretted to spend so much time on this now dead Technologie. I can still draw from my experience even when it comes to thinks “how not to do it”. I have to work Indirectly with Unity now. And it has it faults as well. I often joke that I preferred flash over it. There was only the Textfeld implementation to work around ;).
Many apparently have missed that Flash is pretty much alive, Adobe has renamed it into Animate.
In fact some might even been playing Animate AOT compiled games on their iOS devices.
https://www.adobe.com/products/animate.html
In fact some might even been playing Animate AOT compiled games on their iOS devices.
https://www.adobe.com/products/animate.html
Simply put, Flash was the Web's 80's moment — It influenced generations to come, eventually ending up in monotone conformity.
Obligatory Gabo Corp Intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y-ESJS911c
Obligatory Gabo Corp Intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y-ESJS911c
I can also say that it was responsible for the Web's most irritating era. After Flash came out every site suddenly had to have an animated homepage. It was fun once, twice but after awhile it was incredibly irritating. I'm so glad it's gone.
I'm part of that forgotten industry, since Flash 3. I can tell you that Steve Job letter hurt a lot the industry but I don't believe destroyed the creativity. We're more focused on clicks than interactions in the industry today.
Flash barely ran on Android - Adobe could never get it working correctly on mobile.
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Looking back at 10 years AS 2/3 has brought us more than we have ever done within the Javascript era. The major lacking stabilities, compilers like TypeScript makes the modern toolset so incredible bad. Lovely to see as most of old AS programmers still approach these modern Javascript webapps way better than people started with Javascript without knowing the language behind it.
"R.i.p. Robotlegs" (lol @ https://github.com/robmoorman/as3-robotlegs-library)
"R.i.p. Robotlegs" (lol @ https://github.com/robmoorman/as3-robotlegs-library)
Flex was immensely powerful. Back in 2007 I was able to prototype a Flex app for a financial firm where I could load 20K complex records on UI super fast for various streaming views/Charts/trading views etc. All possible with AS3, BlazeDS/LCDS Java back-end; building trading/streaming applications was fast. Wish Adobe and rest of the guys supported Flash/Flex platform on Desktop at least. Moving to open-source/apache didnt help either; Apache Flex is pretty much written off. Sigh !
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But finally there are viable, open, replacements that are emerging: https://www.2dimensions.com/explore/popular/trending/all
which uses Flare: https://www.2dimensions.com/about-flare
(and is using an Open Source runtime that runs natively)
which uses Flare: https://www.2dimensions.com/about-flare
(and is using an Open Source runtime that runs natively)
What prevents someone to replicate the Flash experience with modern web tech like JS, HTML5, CSS or Canvas/WebGL? I mean something with similar editor functionality, producing result drawable in modern web browsers. EDIT: There actually is Adobe Animate so what prevents people from being as creative as in the Flash era?! https://www.adobe.com/products/animate.html
My theory is that the web has overall matured. A lot of what Flash did is now possible and even better/faster/easier, but the reason for those aren't there. In many ways Flash websites featured novel navigation and interaction experiences, the likes of people never had seen before, but that's a gimmick that gets old fast. No insurance company wants or needs an animated 3d intro in their website; they want and need good SEO, and information that's easy to reach. If they want to impress with something visual, they'll go to YouTube or Instagram.
I started playing with FutureSplash when it first came out and loved it. It was so easy to use and just a lot of fun.
I was pretty heartbroken when Macromedia acquired it because I knew they'd muck it up. It was hardly anytime at all before they added huge amounts of complexity, and bugs with it, and jacked the price up to a painful point.
I never did buy anything from MacroMedia and I quit buying Adobe software around ten years ago. I don't miss them a bit, but I do still miss FutureSplash.
I was pretty heartbroken when Macromedia acquired it because I knew they'd muck it up. It was hardly anytime at all before they added huge amounts of complexity, and bugs with it, and jacked the price up to a painful point.
I never did buy anything from MacroMedia and I quit buying Adobe software around ten years ago. I don't miss them a bit, but I do still miss FutureSplash.
Homestar Runner.. 'nuff said.
Flash was to multimedia what Delphi was to GUI programming. They made it easy and fun. Then we managed to make everything complicated and brittle.
I vividly remember following yugop.com (Yugo Nakamura’s Mono*crafts) in college around ~2000, waiting for more experiments to be posted. To me that was what the web was for, far reaching and experimental design. This article was a reminder of how absent that kind of design experimentation is now, even as businesses and applications have gotten more experimental.
s/Internet's/Web/
The most creative Era of the Internet was the Web.
The most creative Era of the Internet was the Web.
Flash may have had its merits, but it was massively overused to build crappy non-searchable, non-accessible web sites.
I can understand the nostalgia and creativity and all of this. But there are two sides to this story. I had flash courses where a significant amount of effort was put into making loading bars... and that pretty much sums up Flash for me: something abused in a way that it slowed down access to meaningful content.
Our take on how to preserve Flash content in the WebAssembly era: https://medium.com/leaningtech/preserving-flash-content-with...
Sturgeon's law applies. 99% of Flash was garbage - animated autoplaying ads that slowed your browser to a crawl, unnecessary unskippable splash pages for every restaurant website ever, DRM'd audio and video players...
And then there was utter genius like Homestar Runner, which made it almost worth it.
And then there was utter genius like Homestar Runner, which made it almost worth it.
As far as I’m concerned, the whole field of web design peaked in 1999 when this website was made:
http://superior-web-solutions.com/
Enable Flash, turn up the sound and whatever you do, do NOT skip the intro.
http://superior-web-solutions.com/
Enable Flash, turn up the sound and whatever you do, do NOT skip the intro.
Wow, clicking this link I just realized my Firefox/Linux installation still has the Flash player plugin. So I could view this gem of 90s Flash-only website.
It shows all the problem the web had back then: It took me four clicks to see actual text about what the authors are trying to say/sell. Everything before was crying "wow look at the amazing technology we can build".
For many web developers at that time (including me), this was a reason why we hated Flash (and intro pages, in general). At some level, the web got more professional after the Flash times, when content was written in HTML again, and SEO was a thing. Unfortunately, today, Javascript takes over the role of Flash and at many sites, without JS there is no text appearing/embedded in HTML only.
It shows all the problem the web had back then: It took me four clicks to see actual text about what the authors are trying to say/sell. Everything before was crying "wow look at the amazing technology we can build".
For many web developers at that time (including me), this was a reason why we hated Flash (and intro pages, in general). At some level, the web got more professional after the Flash times, when content was written in HTML again, and SEO was a thing. Unfortunately, today, Javascript takes over the role of Flash and at many sites, without JS there is no text appearing/embedded in HTML only.
Anybody remember FantaVision on the Apple ][? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL7V5nfmveI
Vector tweening in 1985. Though not interactive. (and I think the video is sped up a bit)
Vector tweening in 1985. Though not interactive. (and I think the video is sped up a bit)
Yea, the "internet" apparently needs a festering cesspool of bugginess, resource hogging, and remote code execution vectors to be "creative". A programming language that lets you take control safely would just be too stifling.
Not strictly on topic, but I still have clients stuck on Flash. Which tools do you advise to extract text content from swf?
I tried swftools with not much success. A few commercial apps weren’t much help either. And Google’s tool (forgot its name) was taken down.
I tried swftools with not much success. A few commercial apps weren’t much help either. And Google’s tool (forgot its name) was taken down.
I still miss flash.
Why is it so hard to replace with something equally as good that works on mobile?
Why is it so hard to replace with something equally as good that works on mobile?
Flash died because Macromedia and Adobe wanted to replace the open standards for their solutions. It just took Jobs to stop them to crumble and dissapear. They focus on get all instead being a being a complement.
I think this [0] is a large reason why.
0 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_limitation
Or Flash’s heyday coincided with the explosion of the web from tech-circles to widespread public use, and critically, before the big walled gardens (FB etc), became the hub for most publication on the internet.
FB and other sites like that themselves were popular places for flash games as well.
Glad to see Joshua Davis (Praystation) in there. Now known as https://joshuadavis.com/ he was way ahead of the times IMO.
Is there any open source tool/community trying to create a simple HTML5 animation studio similar to Flash? That would really open up doors for widespread creativity and the adoption of web standards.
I've been asking the same question for years.
Greensock is the only thing that feels remotely like the good parts of Flash to me.
But it does less, and requires learning some Javascript.
https://greensock.com/
Greensock is the only thing that feels remotely like the good parts of Flash to me.
But it does less, and requires learning some Javascript.
https://greensock.com/
Same here, been wanting this for a long time. I even started a project called Hypermedia Canvas, but didn't have the skills or collaborators to get it started.
I would be interested to give it another attempt, if I could find someone to help with some parts, like keyframing or tweening. The goal would be to create a fully open source studio to produce rich hypermedia productions using web standard technologies (HTML, CSS, JS, SVG) directly in a web browser. We would build on existing efforts and prior art where possible.
I would be interested to give it another attempt, if I could find someone to help with some parts, like keyframing or tweening. The goal would be to create a fully open source studio to produce rich hypermedia productions using web standard technologies (HTML, CSS, JS, SVG) directly in a web browser. We would build on existing efforts and prior art where possible.
Also, while Canvas, SVG, etc. imply 2D or 2.5D (excluding the timeline) there are a couple of WebGL projects that could serve as the basis for a Flash/Hypercard-esque web standards studio:
https://github.com/jagenjo/webglstudio.js
https://github.com/tentone/nunuStudio
https://github.com/jagenjo/webglstudio.js
https://github.com/tentone/nunuStudio
WebGLStudio.js uses the litegui.js framework to build the UI
https://github.com/jagenjo/litegui.js
It looks like litegui.js is capable of producing UI widgets similar to Adobe Animate, and other desktop animation software.
https://github.com/jagenjo/litegui.js
It looks like litegui.js is capable of producing UI widgets similar to Adobe Animate, and other desktop animation software.
E.g. the CreateJS toolkit might be a good basis:
https://createjs.com/
I'm not clear how to build a keyframe timeline or bezier graph for property tweening, nor am I sure whether shape tweening is possible with CSS or SVG.
https://createjs.com/
I'm not clear how to build a keyframe timeline or bezier graph for property tweening, nor am I sure whether shape tweening is possible with CSS or SVG.
The Scene.js Timeline seems foundational to making keyframe animations using JS/CSS:
https://github.com/daybrush/scenejs-timeline
Granted, Scene.js seems oriented towards short animations.
Building a hypermedia studio, even with Scene.js as a component, that could produce something as elaborate as Homestar Runner would need considerable effort.
The idea here is basically an open source, web standards-based alternative to Adobe Animate.
https://github.com/daybrush/scenejs-timeline
Granted, Scene.js seems oriented towards short animations.
Building a hypermedia studio, even with Scene.js as a component, that could produce something as elaborate as Homestar Runner would need considerable effort.
The idea here is basically an open source, web standards-based alternative to Adobe Animate.
If you feel the urge to animate something right now, try http://flipanim.com, it has an awesome non-commercial feel.
Radiskull.
Lord Destros.
I'll await Bloomberg's coverage of when those two get topped.
Lord Destros.
I'll await Bloomberg's coverage of when those two get topped.
In so many ways, the dream of computing died with flash.
And Microsoft invented AJAX and the dynamic web.
Just another great piece of software Adobe bought and killed by mixture of neglect and quality Adobe software engineering.
Ok, so yup, flash rocked. Why can't we capture what was rad and ship it now? Who was critical to building it then?
Flash died because Steve Jobs knew that it would cost Apple much money since the to grossing App Store items have always been games and Flash was what most of the web based games were programmed in. He couldn't cash in on that market plus it was a direct competitor. He had the leverage and opportunity to do so... so he defamed and killed it. Jobs was all about innovation... as long as it was coming out of Apple.
Flash was a cancer for the web (poor usability, incomprensible web interfaces, low importance to the real content, quasi-zero accessibility), no responsive, closed source insecure and monopolistic platform. I has never been a fan of Jobs and iPhone but I was very happy when the iPhone success signed the start of the decline and extinction of Flash tecnology.
Flash is one of those technologies that I refused to learn. It was in fashion when I was still starting my career in Software Development. I didn't like the experience on websites using flash. I saw Flash and other similar technologies as cancers to the web. I didn't want to be part of the problem.
Security breaches used to be so much more aesthetically pleasing.
With the end of flash came the end of the intro splash page.
There is tons of things going on on YouTube these days.
Yeah, while the Flash era was definitely great for animation, that was really more because animation was the only real option for video. Streaming video has largely replaced that, and cheap cameras mean animation is way costlier to do now.
It is a shame that the tooling for animation online doesn't appear to be good. I guess the reality is probably that it's just cheaper and easier to render your animation to video, or release as a game. Game engines are working harder to target browsers as a platform, so the latter option will probably come full circle.
It is a shame that the tooling for animation online doesn't appear to be good. I guess the reality is probably that it's just cheaper and easier to render your animation to video, or release as a game. Game engines are working harder to target browsers as a platform, so the latter option will probably come full circle.
*And Also Most Of The Early Internet's Bugs
Today’s internet is far more creative than the internet of the Flash era. Creativity has moved on to more consequential things than graphic design.
Flash wasn't "graphic design" it was a unique cross over of design and code in harmony and at the time most graphic designers I encountered used to say "web designers are not real designers" they only considered print work important.
Funny how things change.
Funny how things change.
WASM will eventually catch up to the glory days of Flash and far surpass them. It will be amazing.
tbh Adobe killed Flash after it bought it from Macromedia.
Strongbad Email FTW
Flash was an amazing creative interactive development platform, it was a ton of fun. Creatives designers and developers could create some amazing projects with it because it is very approachable. Flash provided a place for people to create games, web shows/cartoons, eventually video and with almost no limits except creativity. The compression and optimization of Flash was unmatched in the early days. The vector based nature of Flash was fresh and was also an excellent drawing tool. All this combined attracted a special type of creative designer/developer and some unique platform progression pushing innovation.
The community from Flash 4 (late 90s) / AS2 to FlashDevelop + AS3 (2007/8) was very fun to be a part of. AS3 was big and was based off of ES4, it really kickstarted Javascript development as well into overdrive. Everything big early on the web was Flash, From Joe Cartoon to Stain Boy to Praystation to Papervision which inspired three.js to gaming sites like Newgrounds and Kongregate and more. Flash pushed WebGL in the browser and HTML5/Canvas/video. Flash made the web interactive and fun. Flash was apps before mobile apps. While there could be overuse of Flash intros, on the flipside some of the most amazing game, video and interactive experiences and platforms started with Flash. Promotional games and game sites in Flash were huge pre-mobile.
Flash revolutionized video and made Youtube possible. Video was a mess before it. Both Flash and eventually Silverlight pushed innovation in this area leading to H.264 and HTML5 video capabilities. Flash was during a time where developers with plugins were pushing trends in the browser, not large corp.
Still to this day it is hard to recreate all the features of Flash with web standards but Flash was the plugin that pushed us forward the most on the web. The self-contained platform nature of Flash allowed focus on the app/game/interactive content and less fighting with technology, it was almost like an early console. Flash could do web requests/services before AJAX, so for a time it was the way to do web apps. I'll miss plugin innovation that was always ahead of standards. I will miss innovation on the web from Flash and the access that plugins had to push forward.
Flash was very well run when Macromedia ran it. Adobe bought it mainly for the video platform and to take competitors to Photoshop/Illustrator off the market in Macromedia Fireworks/Freehand. Adobe let both Director and Flash wither and did not react to hardware/software rendering soon enough. If Macromedia had kept in the game it might have gone differently. The period where Silverlight and Flash were competing was also quite nice, just before the mammoth mobile arrived in 2007/8 that changed everything. Smartphones revolutionized apps/interactives and game development, leading to a new handheld gaming/app platform that attracted most if not all Flash developers.
I got started in interactive development and game development professionally with Flash in the mid to late 90s. The release of Flash 4 was the beginning of a decade plus of massive innovation, pushed mostly by Flash. I made my first professional game in 2000 and did Flash games/interactives for a decade+. Now I do Unity, Unreal, WebGL/three.js and others for apps/games/web. Flash allowed me to work at agencies and helped the leap to professional game development. Unity/Unreal and WebGL became the places that most people in Flash ended up who were focused on games/interactives.
Adobe should have moved faster with Adobe AIR and HTML5 support as well as native/hardware acceleration, ultimately the slowness on mobile let it slip, the browsers blocking plugins pushed Flash from the web. Amazing creative designers and developers ended up either doing Unity games/apps/interactives or WebGL/canvas/three.js games/apps/interactives.
OpenFL [1], Haxe[2] and Lime [3] with FlashDevelop [4] is still out there for Flash development. In terms of empowering people to learn technology and see immediate results it is still a great platform.
Adobe Animate CC (renamed from Flash) is still great for animation, most large animated shows use Animate/Flash [5] or ToonBoom. One of the earliest exciting things about Flash was the ability to create cartoons and shows online, it is still one of the best tools for that and most popular animated shows use it that are 2D based. Flash being vector based really helps out for animation and scaling. For animated shows, there isn't another tool that comes close yet, Flash is still king in 2D animation.
[1] https://www.openfl.org/
[2] https://haxe.org/
[3] https://lime.software/
[4] https://www.flashdevelop.org/
[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Flash_animated_televis...
The community from Flash 4 (late 90s) / AS2 to FlashDevelop + AS3 (2007/8) was very fun to be a part of. AS3 was big and was based off of ES4, it really kickstarted Javascript development as well into overdrive. Everything big early on the web was Flash, From Joe Cartoon to Stain Boy to Praystation to Papervision which inspired three.js to gaming sites like Newgrounds and Kongregate and more. Flash pushed WebGL in the browser and HTML5/Canvas/video. Flash made the web interactive and fun. Flash was apps before mobile apps. While there could be overuse of Flash intros, on the flipside some of the most amazing game, video and interactive experiences and platforms started with Flash. Promotional games and game sites in Flash were huge pre-mobile.
Flash revolutionized video and made Youtube possible. Video was a mess before it. Both Flash and eventually Silverlight pushed innovation in this area leading to H.264 and HTML5 video capabilities. Flash was during a time where developers with plugins were pushing trends in the browser, not large corp.
Still to this day it is hard to recreate all the features of Flash with web standards but Flash was the plugin that pushed us forward the most on the web. The self-contained platform nature of Flash allowed focus on the app/game/interactive content and less fighting with technology, it was almost like an early console. Flash could do web requests/services before AJAX, so for a time it was the way to do web apps. I'll miss plugin innovation that was always ahead of standards. I will miss innovation on the web from Flash and the access that plugins had to push forward.
Flash was very well run when Macromedia ran it. Adobe bought it mainly for the video platform and to take competitors to Photoshop/Illustrator off the market in Macromedia Fireworks/Freehand. Adobe let both Director and Flash wither and did not react to hardware/software rendering soon enough. If Macromedia had kept in the game it might have gone differently. The period where Silverlight and Flash were competing was also quite nice, just before the mammoth mobile arrived in 2007/8 that changed everything. Smartphones revolutionized apps/interactives and game development, leading to a new handheld gaming/app platform that attracted most if not all Flash developers.
I got started in interactive development and game development professionally with Flash in the mid to late 90s. The release of Flash 4 was the beginning of a decade plus of massive innovation, pushed mostly by Flash. I made my first professional game in 2000 and did Flash games/interactives for a decade+. Now I do Unity, Unreal, WebGL/three.js and others for apps/games/web. Flash allowed me to work at agencies and helped the leap to professional game development. Unity/Unreal and WebGL became the places that most people in Flash ended up who were focused on games/interactives.
Adobe should have moved faster with Adobe AIR and HTML5 support as well as native/hardware acceleration, ultimately the slowness on mobile let it slip, the browsers blocking plugins pushed Flash from the web. Amazing creative designers and developers ended up either doing Unity games/apps/interactives or WebGL/canvas/three.js games/apps/interactives.
OpenFL [1], Haxe[2] and Lime [3] with FlashDevelop [4] is still out there for Flash development. In terms of empowering people to learn technology and see immediate results it is still a great platform.
Adobe Animate CC (renamed from Flash) is still great for animation, most large animated shows use Animate/Flash [5] or ToonBoom. One of the earliest exciting things about Flash was the ability to create cartoons and shows online, it is still one of the best tools for that and most popular animated shows use it that are 2D based. Flash being vector based really helps out for animation and scaling. For animated shows, there isn't another tool that comes close yet, Flash is still king in 2D animation.
[1] https://www.openfl.org/
[2] https://haxe.org/
[3] https://lime.software/
[4] https://www.flashdevelop.org/
[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Flash_animated_televis...
Home Star Runner!!!
Go to the old homestarrunner site, grab a flash file and play it (in the browser if you still have support, or using a rendering library) on a UHD screen. Yes, you can render that ancient 2000s era video .. in 4k. Flash is dead as a door nail though, and Homestar will now only be at the resolution of when they rendered it for YouTube.
Go to the old homestarrunner site, grab a flash file and play it (in the browser if you still have support, or using a rendering library) on a UHD screen. Yes, you can render that ancient 2000s era video .. in 4k. Flash is dead as a door nail though, and Homestar will now only be at the resolution of when they rendered it for YouTube.
Trogdor!!!!!! I introduced my kids to Strong Bad when they were young but just about zero of their friends know about it. :(
Flash isn't responsible for anything. It was the technology used to animate the web. Something else would of came along, and of course did.
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lol. era.
I loved flash games, the only thing I couldn’t stand was the lack of ability to scale the gaming window on most sites, so you’re playing through,what, 320x320, or something so small...
I also hated the anti-flash tech crowd in Silicon Valley. One person I knew ‘Jason’ would get violently angry about flash...
And he was so vehemently opposed to flash, that regardless of his arguments against, he just made himself look like an ass.
Think BOFH or typical NetworkNazi against flash... but he couldn’t succinctly state “why” other than “it’s a piece of shit”. - fuck that guy. (And the other guy who wanted to fight me when I said that apple was going to go to intel based procs...)
Flash was GREAT (from a creative) aside from “give me a bigger damn game screen!”
I also hated the anti-flash tech crowd in Silicon Valley. One person I knew ‘Jason’ would get violently angry about flash...
And he was so vehemently opposed to flash, that regardless of his arguments against, he just made himself look like an ass.
Think BOFH or typical NetworkNazi against flash... but he couldn’t succinctly state “why” other than “it’s a piece of shit”. - fuck that guy. (And the other guy who wanted to fight me when I said that apple was going to go to intel based procs...)
Flash was GREAT (from a creative) aside from “give me a bigger damn game screen!”
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The premise of this article is just weirdly wrong and out of touch. There are monstrously huge creative spaces on the modern internet, powered by better and better tools. YouTube. Unity. Scratch. Roblox. Twitch. Itch.io. Blender. Minecraft. And so on.
It is noteworthy that professional/corporate creators haven't followed the hobbyists and kids into some of these spaces to represent their brands as much as they did into the land of Web+Flash. I don't see how that matters when measuring the "Internet's Most creative Era."
Consumers are more savvy, and brands are have gained some wisdom to not step on territory that makes them appear inauthentic and creepy. Second Life was an interesting experiment, but I'm happy that big brands haven't made ads in Roblox yet.
It is noteworthy that professional/corporate creators haven't followed the hobbyists and kids into some of these spaces to represent their brands as much as they did into the land of Web+Flash. I don't see how that matters when measuring the "Internet's Most creative Era."
Consumers are more savvy, and brands are have gained some wisdom to not step on territory that makes them appear inauthentic and creepy. Second Life was an interesting experiment, but I'm happy that big brands haven't made ads in Roblox yet.
youtube is not a tool - it's a platform, and increasingly more hostile towards content creators (and increasingly biased towards commercial content or clickbait content). Twitch is same as youtube basically, but slightly more content creator friendly.
Unity, scratch, blender, these are all programming related. They are not beginner friendly at all.
itch.io isn't a tool either, but a website for distributing. The content you find on there are good, but most are not made with something easy like the flash animations would've been. Game maker comes close, but it isn't well suited for animation.
There isn't, and hasn't been, a replacement for flash animation suite, which is such a great, easy to use, integrated tool of drawing, animation and timing with a relatively simple scripting model. Even amateurs are able to make interesting animations with it. I bet you can't say the same for any of the tools named above.
Unity, scratch, blender, these are all programming related. They are not beginner friendly at all.
itch.io isn't a tool either, but a website for distributing. The content you find on there are good, but most are not made with something easy like the flash animations would've been. Game maker comes close, but it isn't well suited for animation.
There isn't, and hasn't been, a replacement for flash animation suite, which is such a great, easy to use, integrated tool of drawing, animation and timing with a relatively simple scripting model. Even amateurs are able to make interesting animations with it. I bet you can't say the same for any of the tools named above.
My 9 year old is comfortable messing around in Unity, Scratch, and Blender. They're super beginner friendly and the amount of free tutorials available today is staggering.
Flash was also a platform, though you were still reliant on a host like Newgrounds to upload to. All of this is relevant to today's ecosystems. YouTube, Itchio and others have grown beyond anything in the Flash era.
> There isn't, and hasn't been, a replacement for flash animation suite, which is such a great, easy to use, integrated tool of drawing, animation and timing with a relatively simple scripting model. Even amateurs are able to make interesting animations with it. I bet you can't say the same for any of the tools named above.
I agree that the learning curve for Blender, Unity, etc, is probably a bit steeper than Flash. That wasn't the point of the article linked, nor is it what I'm arguing.
Flash was also a platform, though you were still reliant on a host like Newgrounds to upload to. All of this is relevant to today's ecosystems. YouTube, Itchio and others have grown beyond anything in the Flash era.
> There isn't, and hasn't been, a replacement for flash animation suite, which is such a great, easy to use, integrated tool of drawing, animation and timing with a relatively simple scripting model. Even amateurs are able to make interesting animations with it. I bet you can't say the same for any of the tools named above.
I agree that the learning curve for Blender, Unity, etc, is probably a bit steeper than Flash. That wasn't the point of the article linked, nor is it what I'm arguing.
In 2002 I created the original AdventureQuest. Because the game was created in Flash (Actionscript 1) it was instantly cross platform. It could dynamically load any number of animated monsters, weapons, cut-scenes, towns, and backgrounds. Most importantly, those loaded items could have their own code which let them do anything-- giving them new AI, features, or letting there be a game within the game. Also, it was easy to communicate with the database through posts to webpages. Because of this, your character was persistent and the game was able to update with new things every week. (In fact, the game has been updating for 17 years and is STILL updated with new things every single week.)
As Flash evolved, we built more games: DragonFable, MechQuest, and a slew of minigames. Actionscript 2 has a special place in my heart. It was my favorite language. Not being a "real programmer", it was really easy to use. Making things was ultra fast. Actionscript 3 was a challenge for me. our "real programmers" loved it. But, it was so hard for me to actually make anything happen with it. When it became the new standard and we started developing with it, I stopped programming and focused on the content assembly side.
We have built several Flash Massively Multiplayer Video games: AdventureQuest Worlds, EpicDuel, Oversoul, and HeroSmash. They all benefited from the same features that the very first game did, allowing for weekly (or more often) releases of new content. The games literally grew under your feet as you played them.
Creating art, animation, and interactivity in Flash was the best. Flash 3.0 was probably my favorite version. Flash CS6 being a close second.
We are currently in the process of converting our most popular game, AdventureQuest Worlds to Unity. Switching from vector to raster is a nightmare-- ask anyone who has gone through converting 10,000 items with no universal conformity.
Flash was just so fast and easy. We still use Adobe Animate (which is what they call the Flash tool now) for creating 2D vector art. But I really do miss Flash as a "one stop shop" tool to create... anything.
Battle on! Artix