I thought I would have accomplished a lot more today and also before I was 35(newyorker.com)
newyorker.com
I thought I would have accomplished a lot more today and also before I was 35
https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/i-thought-i-would-have-accomplished-a-lot-more-today-and-also-by-the-time-i-was-thirty-five
698 comments
I can definitely relate to this. My own journey is, in addition to a couple of stints as a founder that didn't work out, I've worked primarily for other startups as opposed to large companies. After 10 years what I have to show for it is about $35,000 from one moderate sized acquisition of a startup you've definitely heard of but was not especially lucrative for anyone except the founders, some options that I never exercised and are worth 0 today since the company shut down, some other options that I never exercised and lost 3 months after leaving the company that may or may not be worth something eventually but I couldn't afford to exercise/didn't feel strongly enough to make a big bet on, and now finally some options where I have 8 years left on a 10 year exercise window which may actually go somewhere (but could also end up at $0 or something minimal).
I had other peers in my graduating class in college that went to work at places like Google, Microsoft, and Amazon while I went to do a startup with a few friends, then ended up mostly working as an employee for these other startups. I find it interesting to idly muse about what would have happened to someone who'd joined one of those companies in an entry level engineering role in 2010 and stayed there while having a fairly average career trajectory, say getting to a senior engineer level 5 years in and then plateauing, going from a stock grant size of maybe $50k a year when joining to $150k a year at senior level. Doing some rough estimates based on stock prices over the years, if you'd been in that position at any of these companies and never sold any stock you'd have something like $2.5 million (Google), $4 million (Microsoft) or $6 million (Amazon) in stock today. And of course your base salary and cash bonuses over that time would have been higher than your base salary working for startups.
I don't say this to complain, I'm still doing fine overall and there are a lot of people in the world who work very hard for a lot less. But I also don't feel like I've really accomplished much of any significance. It's pretty mind-blowing to realize that the less risky, more tortoise-like approach to a career would have been so vastly more profitable than what I've experienced at what I would say have been a pretty average selection of startups. And it's not like the startups have been so much more fulfilling, you're still pretty much a cog in the machine as an engineer even at a 30 person company.
In conclusion - working at a startup smaller than, say, series D is a fool's game and a very likely path to one day looking back and feeling like you haven't accomplished anything. Either become a founder to try to build something meaningful from nothing, or just work at a FAANG company as a 9-5 and get your fulfillment elsewhere and/or retire young.
I had other peers in my graduating class in college that went to work at places like Google, Microsoft, and Amazon while I went to do a startup with a few friends, then ended up mostly working as an employee for these other startups. I find it interesting to idly muse about what would have happened to someone who'd joined one of those companies in an entry level engineering role in 2010 and stayed there while having a fairly average career trajectory, say getting to a senior engineer level 5 years in and then plateauing, going from a stock grant size of maybe $50k a year when joining to $150k a year at senior level. Doing some rough estimates based on stock prices over the years, if you'd been in that position at any of these companies and never sold any stock you'd have something like $2.5 million (Google), $4 million (Microsoft) or $6 million (Amazon) in stock today. And of course your base salary and cash bonuses over that time would have been higher than your base salary working for startups.
I don't say this to complain, I'm still doing fine overall and there are a lot of people in the world who work very hard for a lot less. But I also don't feel like I've really accomplished much of any significance. It's pretty mind-blowing to realize that the less risky, more tortoise-like approach to a career would have been so vastly more profitable than what I've experienced at what I would say have been a pretty average selection of startups. And it's not like the startups have been so much more fulfilling, you're still pretty much a cog in the machine as an engineer even at a 30 person company.
In conclusion - working at a startup smaller than, say, series D is a fool's game and a very likely path to one day looking back and feeling like you haven't accomplished anything. Either become a founder to try to build something meaningful from nothing, or just work at a FAANG company as a 9-5 and get your fulfillment elsewhere and/or retire young.
> never sold any stock
> less risky
Never selling stock is pretty risky. Sure in retrospect there's been a huge bull run in tech which made those stocks go up crazily, but most of the people I know in FAANG recommend selling your RSUs and buying index funds like VTI instead to diversify because who knows?
> less risky
Never selling stock is pretty risky. Sure in retrospect there's been a huge bull run in tech which made those stocks go up crazily, but most of the people I know in FAANG recommend selling your RSUs and buying index funds like VTI instead to diversify because who knows?
Yes, I feel like this over-ambition and risk has put me in a similar position. I still own around 300k worth of stock which is not liquid in one of the start-ups but it has been 8 years now. On the other hand I realize that with my background I would never be able to even get a job at FAANG in a first place so I really cherish the experience I got in one of the startups like opening the offices in different countries, travelling and getting clients (I am in tech sales). However looking back, I partially regret the decision to always strive for the outsized return as an employee you get 1 bet for 4 years of vesting, instead of many bets that VCs have. I recently landed a job in a more boring place and increased my income by around 120%, living the boring tortoise life with more politics, but I realised I stopped worrying about the future and really enjoy spending my free time on staying sane. In the end though, I always say that if I would have stayed in my own country and lived the super boring life, I would regret it in the end and so far it has been an exciting ride.
> It's pretty mind-blowing to realize that the less risky, more tortoise-like approach to a career would have been so vastly more profitable
Isn't this the definition of risk? If it was a foregone conclusion that you'd make more money this way, it wouldn't be risky at all.
Isn't this the definition of risk? If it was a foregone conclusion that you'd make more money this way, it wouldn't be risky at all.
Sure, not so surprising that the high risk path is risky. What's surprising is the low risk path is so high reward.
Also, while it might be a lower risk path than the one you took, it certainly wasn't the lowest risk path available. The people who did really well had basically all their net worth tied up in one company's stock for many years.
That level of concentration risk is extremely ill-advised no matter how promising the company might be. Sure, it works out great when GOOG goes up 200%, but it could have just as easily gone the other way. And even if you want to gamble on it, you don't actually need to work there to make a lot more money than those employees did. Just load up on OOM LEAPs and relax on a beach somewhere until $100mm or more.
A really low risk option would have been to go to work for the Federal government or one of its contractors. Or maybe an established, traditional software firm like Oracle or Bloomberg.
That level of concentration risk is extremely ill-advised no matter how promising the company might be. Sure, it works out great when GOOG goes up 200%, but it could have just as easily gone the other way. And even if you want to gamble on it, you don't actually need to work there to make a lot more money than those employees did. Just load up on OOM LEAPs and relax on a beach somewhere until $100mm or more.
A really low risk option would have been to go to work for the Federal government or one of its contractors. Or maybe an established, traditional software firm like Oracle or Bloomberg.
To emphasis the risk aspect.
I worked at Yahoo for 3 years. I joined at a very fortunate time, and left at a very fortunate time that let me basically double my options. It wasn't a fortune, but it was a nice extra chunk.
But when I left, one of the guys reporting to me was still under water on the far larger chunk of options he had been granted prior to the dot-com bubble bursting. As far as I know they wouldn't have gotten over water at any point before they expired.
At the time I joined, Yahoo seemed like it was on a solid upwards trajectory. By the time I left you might have started seeing signs but things were still going the right way for a while, and had I not been offered a very interesting job I'd likely have stayed and lost a significant proportion of the value of my options.
I worked at Yahoo for 3 years. I joined at a very fortunate time, and left at a very fortunate time that let me basically double my options. It wasn't a fortune, but it was a nice extra chunk.
But when I left, one of the guys reporting to me was still under water on the far larger chunk of options he had been granted prior to the dot-com bubble bursting. As far as I know they wouldn't have gotten over water at any point before they expired.
At the time I joined, Yahoo seemed like it was on a solid upwards trajectory. By the time I left you might have started seeing signs but things were still going the right way for a while, and had I not been offered a very interesting job I'd likely have stayed and lost a significant proportion of the value of my options.
Bloomberg wants tools[1], not people who expect to work 40 hours a week and then go have a life. If you're willing to put in that kind of time and can get into a T14 law school[2], then doing biglaw for a few years in a contract or patent practice would open a lot of doors in a lot of places, plus make it very difficult to lose your job to offshoring.
The federal government has an annoying habit of preferring contractors for technical work, both because it's easier than directly paying people what they're worth and because it allows them to claim that the government is smaller than it actually is. Nonetheless, there are pockets of good technical jobs: CIA DS&T; NSA (RF, signals analysis, cryptanalysis); DHS (CISA). You won't be laid off, and there's lots of interesting and useful work; but even if you don't want to go contractor you're likely to run away from the HR departments that seem to view their job as preventing everyone else from doing theirs or the lack of external training opportunities, and at least in the intelligence community agencies are as headquarters-centric as Google and Facebook were ten years ago.
The risk of contracting can vary wildly. Some contracts have a new prime every five years; some go fifty years or more without a changeover. There are definitely contractors and contracts that are low risk, but in general the same rules apply as in SV: stability is being able to find another job, not a guarantee of continuing the same one.
[1]: In the MIT sense.
[2]: Spoiler: if you have a high enough GPA to convince Bloomberg that you'd be a good tool, you can get into a T14 law school.
The federal government has an annoying habit of preferring contractors for technical work, both because it's easier than directly paying people what they're worth and because it allows them to claim that the government is smaller than it actually is. Nonetheless, there are pockets of good technical jobs: CIA DS&T; NSA (RF, signals analysis, cryptanalysis); DHS (CISA). You won't be laid off, and there's lots of interesting and useful work; but even if you don't want to go contractor you're likely to run away from the HR departments that seem to view their job as preventing everyone else from doing theirs or the lack of external training opportunities, and at least in the intelligence community agencies are as headquarters-centric as Google and Facebook were ten years ago.
The risk of contracting can vary wildly. Some contracts have a new prime every five years; some go fifty years or more without a changeover. There are definitely contractors and contracts that are low risk, but in general the same rules apply as in SV: stability is being able to find another job, not a guarantee of continuing the same one.
[1]: In the MIT sense.
[2]: Spoiler: if you have a high enough GPA to convince Bloomberg that you'd be a good tool, you can get into a T14 law school.
> Bloomberg wants tools, not people who expect to work 40 hours a week and then go have a life.
I worked there for almost 5 years and that was not my experience at all.
I worked there for almost 5 years and that was not my experience at all.
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As someone who has generally tried to take your current approach and has generally been rewarded for it, yours is a refreshing perspective. There's a persistent voice in the back of my head that questions whether I'm acting out of fear, rationality, or just following a happy stasis. It's always reassuring to see the other side of this.
I follow this approach, too, and I consider myself successful, but I also have no voice questioning me. Consider for yourself if you'll regret what you're doing (or not doing) today ten years from now...
Noone posts about how their startup exploded and took 5 years of savings in their prime money earning years.
Mine wasn't a startup per se, but my first business exploded, cost me my marriage, six figures of debt and a 70,000 IRS tax bill.
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Myself and former cofounder did a blog post like that once (no longer online), but yeah, I agree, there are plenty of negatives of the startup life that isn't talked about so much, especially the toll it can take on your health (both mental and physical), nevermind your bank account, which in our industry isn't thaaat hard to recover.
Are you suggesting that your twenties are prime money earning years? I know that for me my earnings have only gone up over time.
Earnings go up, but so do expenses and responsibilities for most people.
And would your earnings be where they are now if you had a big gap in your twenties where you did a failed startup? (Depends on the experience it gave you, I guess.)
And would your earnings be where they are now if you had a big gap in your twenties where you did a failed startup? (Depends on the experience it gave you, I guess.)
My career is almost entirely startups. ~25 years of it. Several failed. Several paid out inconsequential amounts. It's never been anything but a positive in interviews, as long as you can talk to lessons learned and as long as it doesn't seem like you were the primary reason it failed.
Despite a family, I have more disposable income net of tax now than my gross salary for most of my 20's.
Despite a family, I have more disposable income net of tax now than my gross salary for most of my 20's.
My personal experience is that the older I get, the more I make, even when taking inflation into account.
After 32 years it's only 2.5x what I made when I was 21.
I wrote a blog post with a graph describing my income [0].
[0] https://medium.com/@brian.cunnie/software-engineering-income... special "friends" link does not count against Medium's quota
After 32 years it's only 2.5x what I made when I was 21.
I wrote a blog post with a graph describing my income [0].
[0] https://medium.com/@brian.cunnie/software-engineering-income... special "friends" link does not count against Medium's quota
> your twenties are prime money earning years
Yes, your first few jobs in the technology field increase pay greatly over your first few years. Your overall expenses only increase if you decide to get married and have children in this time, but with youth putting that off, it's more common to make a lot of money without massive life changes.
Yes, your first few jobs in the technology field increase pay greatly over your first few years. Your overall expenses only increase if you decide to get married and have children in this time, but with youth putting that off, it's more common to make a lot of money without massive life changes.
For last few years, I have been telling myself to take it slow and do what you are doing now. I got a easy but a boring job. I figured this way I will save all my mental energy for my projects after work.
But this is slowly burning me out. The boredom of not doing any real work for 8 hours is soul killing. I do a lot of busy red tape work but it is not intelluctly stimulating.
So now I will do 180 and quit my job in a few months and go indie solo founder route.
But this is slowly burning me out. The boredom of not doing any real work for 8 hours is soul killing. I do a lot of busy red tape work but it is not intelluctly stimulating.
So now I will do 180 and quit my job in a few months and go indie solo founder route.
Good luck. It will be more difficult than expected, just be ready for that. But it will be worth it.
Thanks!
Plan B would be to get a more challenging job for much better pay :-)
Where do such jobs exist?
I’d assume the parent comment is alluding to FAANG or some of the hotter software startups.
I'd be very surprised if most FAANG engineers aren't millionaires after 5-10 years. The caveat being that houses in the Bay Area cost a lot more than a million...
Microsoft, Amazon, Google, and Facebook all have significant Seattle-area presence; it's still expensive, but noticeably less so than Silly Valley, and you can live close to work yet have a Walk Score in the double digits. (And in fact a good score.) MS has a non-negligible number of jobs in lower-cost areas of the US (e.g. Fargo, Las Colinas, Atlanta); Apple is expanding in Austin; both Apple and Google have an increasing number of offices in lower-cost cities.
One of my buddies who works at Google basically lives in a hacker commune so he can pocket most of his earnings post tax. Not sure quite what he does with it.
Sits in an account until the day that he gets suckered into marriage and home ownership
After that a messy divorce and funds are in lawyer and exwifey account and back to the commune
Commune will be 2beaucoup after a tech-salary divorce, only solution is evading the lifetime alimony police by sleeping in the desert, where your only friends are scorpions and your only food is the same ;)
MGTOW for life!
FAANG pays well, but not necessarily more challenging
Agreed, last few years I have been working in semi-leadership position. At first, I thought I wanted to move to management but it wasn't exactly what I expected. However, my technical skills suffered. I tried to go back to a simple dev jobs but didn't get hired.
So the plan is build products but also focus on acqui-hire possibilities. If that fails, make sure my resume benefits from my projects. While I am already making pretty decent salary but if all those rumors about FAANG salaries are true, I can double my salary easily. So I can easily recover lost paychecks.
Well that's the idea, who knows how it will play out.
So the plan is build products but also focus on acqui-hire possibilities. If that fails, make sure my resume benefits from my projects. While I am already making pretty decent salary but if all those rumors about FAANG salaries are true, I can double my salary easily. So I can easily recover lost paychecks.
Well that's the idea, who knows how it will play out.
I'm interpreting the "tortoise" comment as slow and steady, not apathetic to the day job.
Personally, I put my creative energy into my 9 to 5 job. Instead of using evenings to start side hustles or to "get ahead" on work, I unwind and get adequate rest. This is so I can be alert and switched on during my regular work hours.
I've found stretching myself thin starts to affect me quickly, and I feel like I'm actually operating at 50% on a permanent basis.
Personally, I put my creative energy into my 9 to 5 job. Instead of using evenings to start side hustles or to "get ahead" on work, I unwind and get adequate rest. This is so I can be alert and switched on during my regular work hours.
I've found stretching myself thin starts to affect me quickly, and I feel like I'm actually operating at 50% on a permanent basis.
I really tried to dedicate myself to my day job but I work in a large IT corp where most people are apathetic to their jobs. Even my managers told me to take it easy, And that's when I tried my best to accept the culture and save my mental energy for personal projects.
It's also a sign that you might not be compatible with that org.
I recently left management in a large org (where I tried to shelter people like you) and am now back in the startup world. It is refreshing to not be fighting the tide continually.
I'm going to do everything I can to avoid companies that see tech as a cost centre or are super bureaucratic in future. Unfortunately difficult in my mid-sized, non US, city.
I recently left management in a large org (where I tried to shelter people like you) and am now back in the startup world. It is refreshing to not be fighting the tide continually.
I'm going to do everything I can to avoid companies that see tech as a cost centre or are super bureaucratic in future. Unfortunately difficult in my mid-sized, non US, city.
How about being a security guard? There are some cozy, chill, nothing-ever-happens places where you can just sit there at night, maybe do a couple of walks but other than that you could work on your projects! This way you have a steady job that will also be beneficial for pension (adds to work years), and you can work on projects that will pay off later. Do not forget to bring your laptop!
Sounds amazing but it might be hard to focus. In my country, there is no pension. Healthcare is an issue, my wife works for hospital but my health insurance is so much better than hers. We will switch to hers but this pandemic make us a little nervous.
We get healthcare paid by the employer here, so that is not an issue. Focusing could definitely be an issue, especially in the beginning, but I think you could switch to it eventually. I cannot code myself anywhere but my house, not even at my friend's house (when I am alone), but I did get used to it after some days. Probably would have gotten easier over time if I had to stay there.
> There are some cozy, chill, nothing-ever-happens places where you can just sit there at night, maybe do a couple of walks but other than that you could work on your projects!
Working night shift sucks and is bad for your mental and physical health and reduces life expectancy.
Working night shift sucks and is bad for your mental and physical health and reduces life expectancy.
I've done this twice:
https://battlepenguin.com/philosophy/perspective/a-tale-of-t...
Once was backpacking for 11 months with only two bags. The second was 5 months in a car. I did learn a lot both times, but I never got fully independent and it may have set me back some.
Still in retrospect, it was a great journey and I'm still glad I made the attempt.
https://battlepenguin.com/philosophy/perspective/a-tale-of-t...
Once was backpacking for 11 months with only two bags. The second was 5 months in a car. I did learn a lot both times, but I never got fully independent and it may have set me back some.
Still in retrospect, it was a great journey and I'm still glad I made the attempt.
Nice write up. It looks like we did our bachelor's around same time though it seems you don't have any kids yet, right? Having a kid has complicated a few things but hopefully nothing too bad
Thanks! I do not have kids. My old roommate has a daughter and he and his wife lived out of an RV for several years. He got cancer though and had to buy a house near a treatment center (he's find now; full remission for 5+ years) but they still home school.
Another friend I graduated with, still does the RV life. Although they bought a house recently as a home base, but still RV a few months every year. (They're also homeschooling their youngest; oldest went into the military).
I also had a friend who was an English teacher and survived off <500 euro a month in Germany, so even though I had saved up a lot, I've seen people live this way for way less.
There are things that make this kind of lifestyle more challenging for sure (and I'm not about to buy an RV; I do not like driving large vehicles at all), but it's possible if you put your mind to it.
Another friend I graduated with, still does the RV life. Although they bought a house recently as a home base, but still RV a few months every year. (They're also homeschooling their youngest; oldest went into the military).
I also had a friend who was an English teacher and survived off <500 euro a month in Germany, so even though I had saved up a lot, I've seen people live this way for way less.
There are things that make this kind of lifestyle more challenging for sure (and I'm not about to buy an RV; I do not like driving large vehicles at all), but it's possible if you put your mind to it.
I’ve found the same. Thanks for sharing!
Did you have kids? I feel like that is a hard stop and pushes you beyond burn out with sleep deprivation and all your undivided attention, free time and career notwithstanding.
I guess you have babies? It gets easier!
It doesn't get easier, it just gets a different kind of difficult.
I generally agree with you (I have a six and a two year old), but the sleep deprivation when the kids are babies is extremely debilitating. At least that part definitely gets better.
Good point. That initial period is hellish (and amazing) and it does taper off somewhat but settles on a new baseline of permanently elevated difficulty.
It's not bad if they wake up right next to a breast. Before long, they can feed without waking the parents. The sleep deprivation will be terrible if you have to stand up (get heart going), flip on the lights, walk to the kitchen, fumble around to mix and microwave, walk to the baby, sit with the baby, walk back to the kitchen to clean up, and then head back to bed.
Just another way natural is better than synthetic.
Indeed! I was referring to sleep bit
Problems will get less and less frequent, but they will get bigger and more serious.
Nope, but my siblings had their first and I witnessed how life altering of an experience it was for them where they had to put their careers on hold and nothing else mattered other than this new born (justifiably so), pregnancy was also rough for the wives so the husbands has double duty, taking care of newborn at all hours and recovering wives from c-section and complications. Not looking forward to the first year.
Got any tips?
Got any tips?
Just know there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Your children are so helpless and require constant attention and mine woke up hungry basically every 2 hours for almost the first year. You get through it. It helped that my wife took a year off. My kiddo started sleeping through the night at 11 months and that made everything much better. A lot of newborns will do much better and maybe only wake up once per night after a few months. The hard part is also that they can't communicate with you outside crying for like at least 18 months. Once they hit 3 though you should be able to communicate very easily about anything troubling them and that makes life so much more rewarding. My advice is to read to them a LOT and talk to them even more. Do so like they're an actual person and not a child. If you're kid is falling behind in milestones, look and see about early childhood speech therapy. My kid was a good bit behind, but someone working with them helped (probably would've been fine regardless) and they never stop talking now. My in-laws are always confused that I stop and spend time explaining stuff to my kid as they always treat children as things that should obey them without question. It is a little surreal, but parenting method norms have changed a lot in the last 30 years. Reading to them, talking to them, singing to them every night, and doing counting and other activities helps them learn and bond with you.
Know exactly how to get to the hospital when you need to and which have a pediatrician on staff for emergencies.
Start saving for college. Don't worry about fancy clothes as they grow out of everything immediately and nobody cares. Always have spare diapers and sippy cups.
Know exactly how to get to the hospital when you need to and which have a pediatrician on staff for emergencies.
Start saving for college. Don't worry about fancy clothes as they grow out of everything immediately and nobody cares. Always have spare diapers and sippy cups.
My tip is get as much help as possible. Extended family and friends. Help can be babysitting or preparing food or helping with diy.
And have cash to pay for convinence.
Don’t buy anything (clothing, Furniture) new except of course toiletries and diapers - that’ll save you 3k or so that you can invest in eating take out. I’m serious ;-)
Uber eats is your go to baby gift to ask for!
Cruise at work as much as possible - avoid getting promoted. Avoid trying to improve things or caring too much. Just do your job well based on what they expect.
Take it in turns to get a good night sleep. The couch will be the 5 star hotel!
Finally it’s hard to do but relax. Don’t read too many baby books you’ll probably learn enough from prenatal classes. Just know the medical stuff, when to go to the doctor etc.
And find time to go out and have fun. Once a month for a couple of drinks should be possible.
If you don’t have much money all this is going to be really hard and I am not sure what to advice there. Get as much help from friends as possible. You might want to move to where they mostly are.
C sections are horrible. Some OBs love em though. So get multiple opinions and decide yourself. Sometimes unavoidable of course but question a planned one. Don’t believe the 6 week recovery driving again bull shit. Be prepared for 6 months of pain.
Finally my pay has increased at the highest rate since having kids. Part of that is software eating the world, mixed with the lack of the luxury to accept low paying but interesting jobs. I’m not coding Haskell, but hey Typescript is still pretty nice!
And have cash to pay for convinence.
Don’t buy anything (clothing, Furniture) new except of course toiletries and diapers - that’ll save you 3k or so that you can invest in eating take out. I’m serious ;-)
Uber eats is your go to baby gift to ask for!
Cruise at work as much as possible - avoid getting promoted. Avoid trying to improve things or caring too much. Just do your job well based on what they expect.
Take it in turns to get a good night sleep. The couch will be the 5 star hotel!
Finally it’s hard to do but relax. Don’t read too many baby books you’ll probably learn enough from prenatal classes. Just know the medical stuff, when to go to the doctor etc.
And find time to go out and have fun. Once a month for a couple of drinks should be possible.
If you don’t have much money all this is going to be really hard and I am not sure what to advice there. Get as much help from friends as possible. You might want to move to where they mostly are.
C sections are horrible. Some OBs love em though. So get multiple opinions and decide yourself. Sometimes unavoidable of course but question a planned one. Don’t believe the 6 week recovery driving again bull shit. Be prepared for 6 months of pain.
Finally my pay has increased at the highest rate since having kids. Part of that is software eating the world, mixed with the lack of the luxury to accept low paying but interesting jobs. I’m not coding Haskell, but hey Typescript is still pretty nice!
Did you ever hire a nanny? Can that even be done with a newborn? I feel like just a couple nights reprieve to recover the sleep deprivation would be huge.
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We didn’t but you could of course get a nanny.
> Typescript is still pretty nice
How do I speed up that compilation though? Eslint + tsc are killing me.
How do I speed up that compilation though? Eslint + tsc are killing me.
I use webpack, awesome typescript in watch mode
Appreciate the pause from your career (you‘ll probably get a new outlook on things), maybe view it as a personal development sabbatical. Schedule less work if you can, so you can sleep a bit during the day. DON‘T hesitate to ask people for help, even if you don’t want to be a burden and all - People know that life is hard for new parents, and most want to be useful in some way - it makes them feel good about themselves.
The good thing is we can just call it ‘having children’ of something with negative connotations like burnout.
I had multiple kids, two of them severely handicapped. It did not stop me. I am a stay at home dad.
> take advantage of bursts of motivation
I understand this but most of the time I am excited about that new awesome idea that popped into my head. How do you focus on one thing without getting deviated?
I understand this but most of the time I am excited about that new awesome idea that popped into my head. How do you focus on one thing without getting deviated?
I see parallels everywhere else, and that pulls me back. Fundamentally, Snowdrift.coop (start at https://wiki.snowdrift.coop) is about public goods and collective action / coordination problems. When you think enough about the alignment of individual and group incentives, you start seeing how so many societal issues (moloch!) fall into this category. And yes, I'd like to fix all of those, and I get excited about projects that try to do so. But at the end of the day, given my skills, interests, connections, etc, nothing else I could do has the tiniest fraction of the potential to make a difference in the world that Snowdrift.coop does.
For myself, I have two main creative outlets that take up most of my personal free time, and I alternate between the two depending on how I feel. I find them both rewarding and never regret the time spent on either - even when I don't produce anything of any value. I understand going in that there will be fruitless sessions (in terms of quantifiable output), so I count them as a price to get to the stuff of value, which is subjective anyway.
I have a place to note them down. With time it gets filled, refined and culled. If they’re really great I’ll do it at some point. No need to rush to the fresh idea now.
I kind of work on 6 different things from time to time. For some reason awesome new ideas have been coming more slowly lately.
You are describing my life lol.
What were you going to do with a million dollars?
It’s quite nice. You can live wherever you want, make your home just how you want it, have a variety of investments, and have your other half not have to work and raise the children and take care of a garden, etc. You can leave work as well to be even closer to the ones you love.
It takes a lot of stress out of day to day living and you can really plan a future. All while being able to continue work you enjoy or switch careers into something maybe isn’t as profitable but brings different enjoyment.
It takes a lot of stress out of day to day living and you can really plan a future. All while being able to continue work you enjoy or switch careers into something maybe isn’t as profitable but brings different enjoyment.
My personal mantra at work is: One useful thing per day.
If I manage to do one useful thing every day, it adds up to a lot of useful things over time. And that has proven to be enough.
There's a sort of mediocre Johnny Cash song with the chorus "Even I might get to Heaven at a half a mile a day"
That's basically how I try to live my life.
If I manage to do one useful thing every day, it adds up to a lot of useful things over time. And that has proven to be enough.
There's a sort of mediocre Johnny Cash song with the chorus "Even I might get to Heaven at a half a mile a day"
That's basically how I try to live my life.
The speed still matters somehow.
Well, take Johnny Cash. Half a mile a day * 30k days gives 15k miles; maybe it's enough to reach heaven, but not enough to e.g. reach the Moon.
So, when choosing to move steadily albeit slowly, you have to manage your expectations, and get used to get by with little.
Investing your time is not unlike investing your money: least risky strategies bring most stable but least spectacular results, while big bets bring both big gains and big losses.
Well, take Johnny Cash. Half a mile a day * 30k days gives 15k miles; maybe it's enough to reach heaven, but not enough to e.g. reach the Moon.
So, when choosing to move steadily albeit slowly, you have to manage your expectations, and get used to get by with little.
Investing your time is not unlike investing your money: least risky strategies bring most stable but least spectacular results, while big bets bring both big gains and big losses.
> while big bets bring both big gains and big losses.
it's actually an asymmetric. The losses a capped - you cannot lose more than you own, and you cannot lose more than the time you put in (which is, of course, something you're going to lose by living any way). Technically, you also lose the "risk free reward" in opportunity cost - e.g., a minimum wage job.
The gains, however, are unlimited. For both yourself, and for society. So i think it's in the interest of society to make many of these "big bets".
it's actually an asymmetric. The losses a capped - you cannot lose more than you own, and you cannot lose more than the time you put in (which is, of course, something you're going to lose by living any way). Technically, you also lose the "risk free reward" in opportunity cost - e.g., a minimum wage job.
The gains, however, are unlimited. For both yourself, and for society. So i think it's in the interest of society to make many of these "big bets".
There's always more to lose than just what you own. There's who you are, there's relationships with family & friends, there's time, there's opportunities. All should be put on the scale & weighed against the risks.
> There's who you are
Why would you lose who you are if you merely lost on a big bet (say, as an entrepreneur?)
> there's relationships with family & friends
I think you may be reading too much - you imply that a big bet will always mean sacrificing your friends and family, but i do not believe that to be the case, and in fact, friends and family are what helps you succeed, and including them in your bet is more likely to help.
> there's time, there's opportunities
you are _always_ using up your time, regardless of whether you're using it in a big bet, or merely lazying around. As for opportunities - yes you lose in opportunity cost, but you cannot for sure say anything about what is lost, other than a sure-fire, 100% successful opportunity that you declined. If there's two startups, and you chose one, the other is _not_ the opportunity cost (because both has the same opportunity cost - that of a stable wage job working for a stable, zero risk company).
Why would you lose who you are if you merely lost on a big bet (say, as an entrepreneur?)
> there's relationships with family & friends
I think you may be reading too much - you imply that a big bet will always mean sacrificing your friends and family, but i do not believe that to be the case, and in fact, friends and family are what helps you succeed, and including them in your bet is more likely to help.
> there's time, there's opportunities
you are _always_ using up your time, regardless of whether you're using it in a big bet, or merely lazying around. As for opportunities - yes you lose in opportunity cost, but you cannot for sure say anything about what is lost, other than a sure-fire, 100% successful opportunity that you declined. If there's two startups, and you chose one, the other is _not_ the opportunity cost (because both has the same opportunity cost - that of a stable wage job working for a stable, zero risk company).
1) It's not just about making a big financial bet. No one is the same person they were 10 years earlier. The decisions we make along the way change us. You decide to make a big bet, that means you face a whole bunch of different decisions as a result, and then those lead to more, all of which change & become who you are. Many times it's fine, but when it's not, that is something lost beyond money. Do you think no one has ever failed in business and not had an awful impact on them? Some people emerge more determined, some people end up broken.
2) Success changes people. Failure changes people. It also changes how other people look at you. It's not uncommon for people who achieve a certain level of success to make a break with their former lives in some way. Even before success or failure, simply making a big bet then requires a certain amount of focus & drive that can make it difficult, unless you are very careful (and many people are not) to keep your same relationships, to not allow friendships & family connections to lapse. Or let's use something more concrete: many people finance their big bet through family & friends, asking them to make a bet as well. Failure in those cases can be very difficult.
3) You seem to agree with me here: time is always lost, always lost beyond any monetary gain or loss. And it's not just the time lost on the project: Starting from zero means time spent working your way back up. (Perhaps tapping those family & friends for more resources: see above) You only have time for a very small number of big bets. Doing that casually because you believe the potential downside is capped at money is... an incomplete understanding of the risks. If you choose the "big bet" path, it will likely define your life, and what you do day in & day out. And what life is defined purely in monetary terms? None.
So take those risks, all decisions are risks. But consider the costs as well. It's always more than just money.
2) Success changes people. Failure changes people. It also changes how other people look at you. It's not uncommon for people who achieve a certain level of success to make a break with their former lives in some way. Even before success or failure, simply making a big bet then requires a certain amount of focus & drive that can make it difficult, unless you are very careful (and many people are not) to keep your same relationships, to not allow friendships & family connections to lapse. Or let's use something more concrete: many people finance their big bet through family & friends, asking them to make a bet as well. Failure in those cases can be very difficult.
3) You seem to agree with me here: time is always lost, always lost beyond any monetary gain or loss. And it's not just the time lost on the project: Starting from zero means time spent working your way back up. (Perhaps tapping those family & friends for more resources: see above) You only have time for a very small number of big bets. Doing that casually because you believe the potential downside is capped at money is... an incomplete understanding of the risks. If you choose the "big bet" path, it will likely define your life, and what you do day in & day out. And what life is defined purely in monetary terms? None.
So take those risks, all decisions are risks. But consider the costs as well. It's always more than just money.
Why would you lose who you are if you merely lost on a big bet (say, as an entrepreneur?)
I think you may be reading too much - you imply that a big bet will always mean sacrificing your friends and family, but i do not believe that to be the case
Not even two months ago, https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/19/business/robinhood-suicide-al...
I think you may be reading too much - you imply that a big bet will always mean sacrificing your friends and family, but i do not believe that to be the case
Not even two months ago, https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/19/business/robinhood-suicide-al...
Typically “your health” is not considered part of what “you own”, but more often than not is very much on the line during big bets. Not for everyone, and not for every bet, but the loss of it can have an extraordinarily disproportionate time-multiplied impact far beyond losing what “you own”.
> The losses a capped - you cannot lose more than you own
Those who faced personal bankruptcies in 2007-2008 and were stuck with mortgages that were worth far more than their home values might not agree with you.
Those who faced personal bankruptcies in 2007-2008 and were stuck with mortgages that were worth far more than their home values might not agree with you.
You can in fact lose more than you own, in some cases, if a judge deems you liable for damages that you have caused (in their opinion).
> you liable for damages that you have caused
only if you did something illegal. You cannot be sued for more than you own in a civil suit.
only if you did something illegal. You cannot be sued for more than you own in a civil suit.
In the United States, you absolutely can be sued for more than you own.
I should have clarified - of course you can be _sued_ for any amount. I meant that you cannot be forced to repay more than what you own - you bankrupt your way out of it, or accept a settlement.
The only debt you cannot discharge via bankruptcy is student loan debt, iirc.
The only debt you cannot discharge via bankruptcy is student loan debt, iirc.
In what jurisdiction?
If your priority is simply to do one useful thing a day, there is not built-in end to that, no destination. It's just about the day you're on now.
Quantifying a Johnny Cash song is just missing the point, IMHO :).
Plus, of course, there’s no fast road to Heaven - whatever Heaven May mean to you.
Plus, of course, there’s no fast road to Heaven - whatever Heaven May mean to you.
I call it "one thing at a time, all the time".
Not because I want to take it slowly, but because I have a lot on my plate and my natural tendency is to "unflatten time", fast-forwarding in my head all the different plays and things to do. Some of these will only apply in a year, but here I am thinking about them and worrying about them now. Worse still, I sometime make decisions related to these future things and as you all surely know, decisions are paid for with a mental toll.
So I dial back, focus on the immediate thing in front of me and remember that nearly any progress is made of trivial, tiny chunks.
Having an effective system of writing stuff down is key to that approach - your future ideas and various pending tasks need to spill into writing instead of lingering around your head. When you have a good writing system you can trust, then you can free your mind to focus on the now.
Not because I want to take it slowly, but because I have a lot on my plate and my natural tendency is to "unflatten time", fast-forwarding in my head all the different plays and things to do. Some of these will only apply in a year, but here I am thinking about them and worrying about them now. Worse still, I sometime make decisions related to these future things and as you all surely know, decisions are paid for with a mental toll.
So I dial back, focus on the immediate thing in front of me and remember that nearly any progress is made of trivial, tiny chunks.
Having an effective system of writing stuff down is key to that approach - your future ideas and various pending tasks need to spill into writing instead of lingering around your head. When you have a good writing system you can trust, then you can free your mind to focus on the now.
Nicely put. Care to share your writing system?
check out Getting Things Done (GTD ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ety0hzFPh6Y
I think the book should be renamed to "Getting Organized: For the Hyper-Conscientious".
Because if you actually manage to power through all the padding to get to the content (I did once but failed my second attempt), you'll find a system that requires a level of conscientiousness that's higher than if you had just done the work.
The system looks great, it's just for a very specific type of person.
The only thing which works for me is a big old whiteboard in the middle of my working area which I have to pay attention to. It's not like a text file or a task management tool which you can ignore or neglect.
I take great joy in the whiteboard writing itself (probably because I was always much better with keyboards than with pens, it's nice to make up some of that difference now).
Whiteboard real estate is always finite so it's not like you could amass too much junk, as you would digitally. You either need to reset your objectives or, well, go out and complete some of them.
I keep one side of the board filled with tasks, the other side I use as a scratchpad.
Obviously some of the notes I take on the whiteboard get translated into JIRA, emails or whatever, but that's only when other people are involved.
I take great joy in the whiteboard writing itself (probably because I was always much better with keyboards than with pens, it's nice to make up some of that difference now).
Whiteboard real estate is always finite so it's not like you could amass too much junk, as you would digitally. You either need to reset your objectives or, well, go out and complete some of them.
I keep one side of the board filled with tasks, the other side I use as a scratchpad.
Obviously some of the notes I take on the whiteboard get translated into JIRA, emails or whatever, but that's only when other people are involved.
One useful thing per day is too much for me. Some days I can’t do anything. Some weeks are the same. Sometimes a month just goes by.
But in the scale of each year I’m super productive.
But in the scale of each year I’m super productive.
Mind sharing some more on this?
"I'm not working to exhaustion anymore and take a tortoise approach to my career. I've found that as long as I'm consistent and have my eye on my goals, it doesn't matter how hard I work outside of my day job. I just need to be consistent and take advantage of bursts of motivation."
Or, is there any article/post you may have written already?
Or, is there any article/post you may have written already?
Compounding outcomes.
Someone who consistently gets just a little better every day is more likely to succeed than someone who works insanely hard for just a limited period of time.
The years don't come without the days.
Someone who consistently gets just a little better every day is more likely to succeed than someone who works insanely hard for just a limited period of time.
The years don't come without the days.
> just a little better every day is more likely to succeed than someone who works insanely hard for just a limited period of time
but someone who works insanely hard for a long time is going to beat the person who gets just a little bit better each day.
The point is, someone who works insanely hard gets to a certain required level quicker than someone who improves a tiny bit every day for a long time. Think cramming for an exam etc.
but someone who works insanely hard for a long time is going to beat the person who gets just a little bit better each day.
The point is, someone who works insanely hard gets to a certain required level quicker than someone who improves a tiny bit every day for a long time. Think cramming for an exam etc.
Agree and disagree.
Agree that someone who "works insanely hard" will advance quicker. However, I disagree that's necessarily the best approach long-term.
When in university, I did something for each of my courses every day. Studied something new, reviewed past materials, solved an assignment. I did it every day. Continuous improvement.
I never had an all-nighter or really crammed for an exam. Yet I got the best marks. It's not because I was an Einstein - it's because I improved on each of the previous 90 days that got me to the required level faster than working insanely hard over a few days.
Continuously improve - do one thing every day. Two if you can. In 90 days, you'll be 90 ways closer to your goal than you were before.
Agree that someone who "works insanely hard" will advance quicker. However, I disagree that's necessarily the best approach long-term.
When in university, I did something for each of my courses every day. Studied something new, reviewed past materials, solved an assignment. I did it every day. Continuous improvement.
I never had an all-nighter or really crammed for an exam. Yet I got the best marks. It's not because I was an Einstein - it's because I improved on each of the previous 90 days that got me to the required level faster than working insanely hard over a few days.
Continuously improve - do one thing every day. Two if you can. In 90 days, you'll be 90 ways closer to your goal than you were before.
but someone who works insanely hard for a long time is always walking that fine line of burnout.
I like that. Thanks for sharing it.
I'm 58. I spent over thirty years, writing and managing software projects that other people generally didn't use well (or mishandled while developing). It was frustrating, but they paid the bills, so there wasn't anything I could do about it.
Since leaving my last job, I started to look at working, and immediately, and with extreme prejudice, slammed into the notorious ageism in tech. It was a real shock, as I had always been treated with a fair degree of respect. That is no longer the case. Respect seems to be a virtue that no one practices, anymore (I'm not talking about "worship." I'm talking about simple, basic, courtesy and respect; like I give to others).
I had saved up a fairly substantial war chest, so I just decided to give up on looking for work, and have been spending my time since then, writing a lot of open-source code[0], and learning the latest stuff in the way I want.
Best decision I ever made. Too bad. I'm pretty good at what I do, I would have worked for a lot less than most (see "war chest," above), and would have been happy to take on riskier work with startups and whatnot.
[0] https://github.com/ChrisMarshallNY (and almost every green square will take you to an open-source repo, where I am the sole author, and you can view the checkins)
I'm 58. I spent over thirty years, writing and managing software projects that other people generally didn't use well (or mishandled while developing). It was frustrating, but they paid the bills, so there wasn't anything I could do about it.
Since leaving my last job, I started to look at working, and immediately, and with extreme prejudice, slammed into the notorious ageism in tech. It was a real shock, as I had always been treated with a fair degree of respect. That is no longer the case. Respect seems to be a virtue that no one practices, anymore (I'm not talking about "worship." I'm talking about simple, basic, courtesy and respect; like I give to others).
I had saved up a fairly substantial war chest, so I just decided to give up on looking for work, and have been spending my time since then, writing a lot of open-source code[0], and learning the latest stuff in the way I want.
Best decision I ever made. Too bad. I'm pretty good at what I do, I would have worked for a lot less than most (see "war chest," above), and would have been happy to take on riskier work with startups and whatnot.
[0] https://github.com/ChrisMarshallNY (and almost every green square will take you to an open-source repo, where I am the sole author, and you can view the checkins)
I could offer an alternative perspective on this as I’ve seen it done to a lot of people that haven’t much choice in the matter.
It’s entirely possible you’re not getting offers because they know you don’t need them.
I don’t mean to say they’re wanting to give the offers to less fortunate applicants - it’s just that you’ll be impossible to abuse relative to someone who they know needs the money.
“We need you to work until this is done.” “No.” “Chris, it’s very important and will be reflected on your performance review.” “Ok. Still no.”
At the start of my career (ages ago now) I had an employer find out that my university progression was tied entirely to their performance review of my placement, and immediately start to insist on my working all the hours under the sun with the strong implication that if I didn’t play ball the note would be “unfavourable”.
When you’re young it’s not always clear how little crap you should take from people in more senior positions.
It’s entirely possible you’re not getting offers because they know you don’t need them.
I don’t mean to say they’re wanting to give the offers to less fortunate applicants - it’s just that you’ll be impossible to abuse relative to someone who they know needs the money.
“We need you to work until this is done.” “No.” “Chris, it’s very important and will be reflected on your performance review.” “Ok. Still no.”
At the start of my career (ages ago now) I had an employer find out that my university progression was tied entirely to their performance review of my placement, and immediately start to insist on my working all the hours under the sun with the strong implication that if I didn’t play ball the note would be “unfavourable”.
When you’re young it’s not always clear how little crap you should take from people in more senior positions.
That's a good point, and a relevant one.
Actually that happened to me too, it turns out there's such a thing as being TOO confident
I'm getting that vibe from you a little as well, where you're refusing to jump through the hoops that companies put in front of new hires (binary tree crap)
I'd recommend you either knuckle under and play ball, or even better: Get into consulting / make a SaaS business like the Expat Software guy
I'm getting that vibe from you a little as well, where you're refusing to jump through the hoops that companies put in front of new hires (binary tree crap)
I'd recommend you either knuckle under and play ball, or even better: Get into consulting / make a SaaS business like the Expat Software guy
Nah. It really is freeing to not have to do that.
I sincerely want to help people that help people. The rat race is just too exhausting for me. I didn't realize how exhausting, until I had a couple of years of working on my own to see the difference.
I'll probably never get paid a dime for my work, ever again, and the thought brings me great joy.
I sincerely want to help people that help people. The rat race is just too exhausting for me. I didn't realize how exhausting, until I had a couple of years of working on my own to see the difference.
I'll probably never get paid a dime for my work, ever again, and the thought brings me great joy.
What do you do for income now?
Live off what I saved up. I'm not rich, but I'll be OK.
Some ideas (from a guy in his 40s who interviews every 6 to 12 months for high paying short-term project work):
- 25 years at a single company is working against you. Remove all that from your cv and just list the recent stuff you built.
- Most of your cv should be description of the repos with links. Cut out and summarise past experience ruthlessly, like you’re refactoring someone else’s old code.
- Remove the link to your personal git page, use the other one. On first sight it looks weak - it has some html files and a lot of docs. My first reaction was “meh”. It took me many minutes of browsing to figure out the real meat was in the other repo And then my reaction was “wow”. Most hiring manager don’t have time for this. People are not clicking on the green squares they are clicking on the source repos, you have about 30 seconds of their time.
- At this stage you might get bored or unhappy real fast in a job, if you are honest to yourself. Consider selling short term access to deep technical expertise - in your case Mobile Bluetooth on iOS.
- 25 years at a single company is working against you. Remove all that from your cv and just list the recent stuff you built.
- Most of your cv should be description of the repos with links. Cut out and summarise past experience ruthlessly, like you’re refactoring someone else’s old code.
- Remove the link to your personal git page, use the other one. On first sight it looks weak - it has some html files and a lot of docs. My first reaction was “meh”. It took me many minutes of browsing to figure out the real meat was in the other repo And then my reaction was “wow”. Most hiring manager don’t have time for this. People are not clicking on the green squares they are clicking on the source repos, you have about 30 seconds of their time.
- At this stage you might get bored or unhappy real fast in a job, if you are honest to yourself. Consider selling short term access to deep technical expertise - in your case Mobile Bluetooth on iOS.
Thanks!
Well, the long-term work is staying in the CV. I worked for 27 years at one of the most storied and respected Japanese corporations on Earth, at a very deep level. This says a lot about my aptitude, ethics, Honor, Integrity, team dynamics and loyalty. I sure as heck don't want to work for any company that thinks of that as a bad thing. Most of my tech work has been done in the open. I've been doing open-source work for over twenty years; which gives me the advantage of a vast portfolio.
I was a hiring manager for 25 years. Hiring people was a very important part of my work. I managed a small, high-functioning team that did image pipeline "engine" code in C++. Getting headcount was a huge battle, and I kept employees for decades. I loved multi-page CVs. "Draw Spunky" tests were absolutely worthless in evaluating people that would become part of my team. Interviews were often very casual affairs, where I'd encourage people to tell me stories about their work.
I have a Stack Overflow story that lays out my work in a linear fashion[0], or CV fashion[1]. I kind of like the idea of an SO story. It's fairly direct in pointing to my work.
My experience is that the vast portfolio is ignored by hiring managers (recruiters are much, much worse). I used to send links to relevant projects, when applying, only to have them completely ignored, in favor of a 50-line binary tree test. I have come to realize that binary tree tests are "young pass filters," as the only place binary trees actually exist, are in colleges. If a company gives a binary tree test, then I know they aren't interested in me, and are just ticking an "Interviewed old fart" checkbox.
[0] https://stackoverflow.com/story/chrismarshall
[1] https://stackoverflow.com/cv/chrismarshall
Well, the long-term work is staying in the CV. I worked for 27 years at one of the most storied and respected Japanese corporations on Earth, at a very deep level. This says a lot about my aptitude, ethics, Honor, Integrity, team dynamics and loyalty. I sure as heck don't want to work for any company that thinks of that as a bad thing. Most of my tech work has been done in the open. I've been doing open-source work for over twenty years; which gives me the advantage of a vast portfolio.
I was a hiring manager for 25 years. Hiring people was a very important part of my work. I managed a small, high-functioning team that did image pipeline "engine" code in C++. Getting headcount was a huge battle, and I kept employees for decades. I loved multi-page CVs. "Draw Spunky" tests were absolutely worthless in evaluating people that would become part of my team. Interviews were often very casual affairs, where I'd encourage people to tell me stories about their work.
I have a Stack Overflow story that lays out my work in a linear fashion[0], or CV fashion[1]. I kind of like the idea of an SO story. It's fairly direct in pointing to my work.
My experience is that the vast portfolio is ignored by hiring managers (recruiters are much, much worse). I used to send links to relevant projects, when applying, only to have them completely ignored, in favor of a 50-line binary tree test. I have come to realize that binary tree tests are "young pass filters," as the only place binary trees actually exist, are in colleges. If a company gives a binary tree test, then I know they aren't interested in me, and are just ticking an "Interviewed old fart" checkbox.
[0] https://stackoverflow.com/story/chrismarshall
[1] https://stackoverflow.com/cv/chrismarshall
To be explicit here, it sounds like you're saying that you don't think you perform well on data structures questions in interviews, for example binary tree questions. Is that right?
Not really. I just don't practice them. I'm way too busy writing shipping software that has very little use for the kinds of academic exercises in LeetCode/HackerRank stuff.
Sometimes, I do great at them. Most are common sense.
Usually, I'm mediocre.
There's thousands and thousands of energetic folks out there; young and old, that practice these every day, and can usually ace them in an interview.
There's no way that I'm even gonna try to compete with them. They'll smoke me. They worked hard for that, and I respect them. I would hope this is indicative of them being good employees, but I can't really see how these tests would indicate that better than a simple conversation.
That said, since I've been writing deployed/shipping/sold software for decades, I suspect that I might be doing something right.
In fact, today, I am polishing up a simple Observer infrastructure[0] for a mesh networking driver that I'm working on. One of the basics of my workflow, is if I'm working on a project, and see that the part I'm working on might be more generically useful, I stop work on the main project for a day or two, while I break that section out into a general-purpose module. It helps me to write much better software.
I'm rather obsessed with Quality, and this practice is one way to get that.
I'm not sure that there's LeetCode for that kind of practice, and I can't really see it happening in a timed whiteboard test.
It is, however, very easy to see; simply by looking at the GH repo.
[0] https://github.com/RiftValleySoftware/RVS_GeneralObserver
Sometimes, I do great at them. Most are common sense.
Usually, I'm mediocre.
There's thousands and thousands of energetic folks out there; young and old, that practice these every day, and can usually ace them in an interview.
There's no way that I'm even gonna try to compete with them. They'll smoke me. They worked hard for that, and I respect them. I would hope this is indicative of them being good employees, but I can't really see how these tests would indicate that better than a simple conversation.
That said, since I've been writing deployed/shipping/sold software for decades, I suspect that I might be doing something right.
In fact, today, I am polishing up a simple Observer infrastructure[0] for a mesh networking driver that I'm working on. One of the basics of my workflow, is if I'm working on a project, and see that the part I'm working on might be more generically useful, I stop work on the main project for a day or two, while I break that section out into a general-purpose module. It helps me to write much better software.
I'm rather obsessed with Quality, and this practice is one way to get that.
I'm not sure that there's LeetCode for that kind of practice, and I can't really see it happening in a timed whiteboard test.
It is, however, very easy to see; simply by looking at the GH repo.
[0] https://github.com/RiftValleySoftware/RVS_GeneralObserver
This is so well articulated. Thank you.
I’m a 25 year old developer that’s only been working full time professionally for ~3 years and I came to a very similar conclusion about you regarding the LeetCode style interviews. I’ve always been allergic to bullshit and smelled it clearly and instantaneously when I began wading into that process.
Undoubtedly I’ve closed doors and passed up opportunities through my refusal to contort myself to the LeetCode regime. At the same time, the time that I would’ve spent drilling myself on superficial coding puzzles I’ve instead invested in building practical applications for my friend’s business, learning and applying machine learning theory to automate a boring task during an internship, implementing a processor in Verilog and writing an assembler for its ISA that I managed to get running on an FPGA, working on an open source digital contact tracing app, and several other projects.
The projects I’ve spent time on are those that I deem to genuinely valuable to society and to my personal skill development in the broadest, most fully integrated conception of ‘valuable’ that I can achieve. To clarify, I could see an counter point being made that LeetCode skills are “valuable” in the sense that I could use them to get a higher paying job at $TECH_CO. But from a higher level perspective, those skills are tailored towards a system (the LeetCode hiring gauntlet) that I think is fundamentally corrupt, and so to spend my energy practicing them for the sake of that system would be corrupting of my integrity.
And despite the admonitions I’ve received from supposedly more pragmatic-minded people, I’ve been able to pull together a living and have a budding career to speak of. My job hunts have perhaps been more drawn out and frustrated than the LeetCode crew, but I believe my focus on genuine knowledge and skill development has contributed to my high performance at the jobs I have managed to land. And by being straightforward about my disinterest in hoop jumping and interest in “real skills”, I’ve managed to befriend and work with companies and people that share similar values to me, who in my view are more rewarding to work with and tend to be more likely to succeed in the long run.
Undoubtedly I’ve closed doors and passed up opportunities through my refusal to contort myself to the LeetCode regime. At the same time, the time that I would’ve spent drilling myself on superficial coding puzzles I’ve instead invested in building practical applications for my friend’s business, learning and applying machine learning theory to automate a boring task during an internship, implementing a processor in Verilog and writing an assembler for its ISA that I managed to get running on an FPGA, working on an open source digital contact tracing app, and several other projects.
The projects I’ve spent time on are those that I deem to genuinely valuable to society and to my personal skill development in the broadest, most fully integrated conception of ‘valuable’ that I can achieve. To clarify, I could see an counter point being made that LeetCode skills are “valuable” in the sense that I could use them to get a higher paying job at $TECH_CO. But from a higher level perspective, those skills are tailored towards a system (the LeetCode hiring gauntlet) that I think is fundamentally corrupt, and so to spend my energy practicing them for the sake of that system would be corrupting of my integrity.
And despite the admonitions I’ve received from supposedly more pragmatic-minded people, I’ve been able to pull together a living and have a budding career to speak of. My job hunts have perhaps been more drawn out and frustrated than the LeetCode crew, but I believe my focus on genuine knowledge and skill development has contributed to my high performance at the jobs I have managed to land. And by being straightforward about my disinterest in hoop jumping and interest in “real skills”, I’ve managed to befriend and work with companies and people that share similar values to me, who in my view are more rewarding to work with and tend to be more likely to succeed in the long run.
That sounds excellent! I support you completely, but my support may not be that relevant.
Coding tests; at least Codility/LeetCode style, are now pretty much worthless, as there’s an entire industry devoted to helping folks pass them.
I just love doing what I do. It sounds like you do, as well.
Every hour I spend, practicing for interviews, is an hour I’m not spending, learning new, practical stuff.
Coding tests; at least Codility/LeetCode style, are now pretty much worthless, as there’s an entire industry devoted to helping folks pass them.
I just love doing what I do. It sounds like you do, as well.
Every hour I spend, practicing for interviews, is an hour I’m not spending, learning new, practical stuff.
While I don't think that whiteboarding aho-corasick from scratch is a good quality interview. I don't think algorithms and data structures are useless or impractical. IMO a basic understanding of the main data structures is important and useful in the day to day.
Granted, some applications will involve more or less use of data structures/algorithms than others, but if you discount them completely you mark yourself out of a whole subset of work.
I would want most of my fellow employees to know what a trie/binary tree/linked list/vector/array/etc is, and I would want them to know how to evaluate space and time complexity of the code they write. What is a good style interview for that is an open question, but I don't think the content is impractical.
By all means, spend your time however you like. I just think it's unfair to call knowledge of these sorts of things "impractical". Impractical for whom?
Granted, some applications will involve more or less use of data structures/algorithms than others, but if you discount them completely you mark yourself out of a whole subset of work.
I would want most of my fellow employees to know what a trie/binary tree/linked list/vector/array/etc is, and I would want them to know how to evaluate space and time complexity of the code they write. What is a good style interview for that is an open question, but I don't think the content is impractical.
By all means, spend your time however you like. I just think it's unfair to call knowledge of these sorts of things "impractical". Impractical for whom?
Point taken, and I agree.
> vector/array
Those two, yes (and vectors really only apply -as such- in C++), but the rest? It depends (the best answer to every conundrum).
I write consumer/developer software; not ML or Big Data Mining stuff. My work is generally in device control, user interface, SDKs, APIs, etc.
That means, that, in over thirty years of writing software, I have encountered exactly 0.000000 binary trees. BTW: Binary trees and linked lists can be an issue in parallel-type programming. We had some image processing algorithms we did that used similar structures, and we had to be very careful. We often had to back out optimizations.
Writing consumer software has issues that don't seem to occur to folks writing engine software. These are things like localization, security, adaptive user interfaces, aesthetic design, information architecture (hoo-boy), responsive controls, branding, testing (all kinds of testing), etc.
That "information architecture" one is a big deal, and almost everyone falls down on it. This is most obvious in settings. Engineers design settings to match the underlying architecture, and don't worry too much about how they will be perceived by users. The result is the infamous "Find the hidden setting" game. I just went through that, yesterday, helping a friend set up a Zoom meeting. Fun! I also just went through it yesterday with my wife, and her Mac. Apple has started to segregate settings the same way, and there be dragonnes.
Testing is another big one. Everyone is fixated on automatic testing and unit tests. If a project comes with a bunch of unit tests, then everyone thinks it's "high quality."
There's issues with relying on unit tests alone. I write about that here: https://medium.com/chrismarshallny/testing-harness-vs-unit-4...
Also, if we write device control, or a lot of communication software, unit tests can be worse than useless. Usability and accessibility testing are also something that can't really be automated.
Shipping software is really boring. There's a lot of "'snot mah chob, man!" stuff involved, that, nonetheless, needs to be done by someone, or we end up with steaming piles of crap.
Some of that involves the programmers directly. For example, do we habitually autodoc document our method headers and class/struct definitions? Do we use tokens and localizedVariant calls for all displayed text? Do we follow good secure programming practices from the start? How would a blackhat use this function I just wrote? Do we throw dependencies in as a first resort? Is that good, or bad? Do we know what that dependency we just committed the company to does? What's our testing strategy? How will we integrate this, and when? etc.
Also, power usage. That's a big one, if we do mobile or embedded software. Sometimes, highly optimized code is the worst code to run, as it can drain the battery, or end up with really strange race conditions between chipsets.
That's practical stuff. When you're a one-man shop, like me, you get to deal with all of it. I was also quite involved in all of it in my last job, where we were a huge, global team, supporting some pretty intense hardware products.
> vector/array
Those two, yes (and vectors really only apply -as such- in C++), but the rest? It depends (the best answer to every conundrum).
I write consumer/developer software; not ML or Big Data Mining stuff. My work is generally in device control, user interface, SDKs, APIs, etc.
That means, that, in over thirty years of writing software, I have encountered exactly 0.000000 binary trees. BTW: Binary trees and linked lists can be an issue in parallel-type programming. We had some image processing algorithms we did that used similar structures, and we had to be very careful. We often had to back out optimizations.
Writing consumer software has issues that don't seem to occur to folks writing engine software. These are things like localization, security, adaptive user interfaces, aesthetic design, information architecture (hoo-boy), responsive controls, branding, testing (all kinds of testing), etc.
That "information architecture" one is a big deal, and almost everyone falls down on it. This is most obvious in settings. Engineers design settings to match the underlying architecture, and don't worry too much about how they will be perceived by users. The result is the infamous "Find the hidden setting" game. I just went through that, yesterday, helping a friend set up a Zoom meeting. Fun! I also just went through it yesterday with my wife, and her Mac. Apple has started to segregate settings the same way, and there be dragonnes.
Testing is another big one. Everyone is fixated on automatic testing and unit tests. If a project comes with a bunch of unit tests, then everyone thinks it's "high quality."
There's issues with relying on unit tests alone. I write about that here: https://medium.com/chrismarshallny/testing-harness-vs-unit-4...
Also, if we write device control, or a lot of communication software, unit tests can be worse than useless. Usability and accessibility testing are also something that can't really be automated.
Shipping software is really boring. There's a lot of "'snot mah chob, man!" stuff involved, that, nonetheless, needs to be done by someone, or we end up with steaming piles of crap.
Some of that involves the programmers directly. For example, do we habitually autodoc document our method headers and class/struct definitions? Do we use tokens and localizedVariant calls for all displayed text? Do we follow good secure programming practices from the start? How would a blackhat use this function I just wrote? Do we throw dependencies in as a first resort? Is that good, or bad? Do we know what that dependency we just committed the company to does? What's our testing strategy? How will we integrate this, and when? etc.
Also, power usage. That's a big one, if we do mobile or embedded software. Sometimes, highly optimized code is the worst code to run, as it can drain the battery, or end up with really strange race conditions between chipsets.
That's practical stuff. When you're a one-man shop, like me, you get to deal with all of it. I was also quite involved in all of it in my last job, where we were a huge, global team, supporting some pretty intense hardware products.
> Those two, yes (and vectors really only apply -as such- in C++), but the rest? It depends (the best answer to every conundrum).
I think other systems langs make the distinction, Rust does also, this is what I've been doing at my day job lately.
> That means, that, in over thirty years of writing software, I have encountered exactly 0.000000 binary trees.
I've been doing it for a third of that time and I've encountered binary trees and all kinds of other data structures a bunch of times. I don't do any big data or ML stuff, I was writing React frontends for about half of that, the last few years it's been systems programming with Rust; I still encountered these types of structures writing JS though.
> BTW: Binary trees and linked lists can be an issue in parallel-type programming. We had some image processing algorithms we did that used similar structures, and we had to be very careful. We often had to back out optimizations.
When sharing any memory between threads or tasks you have to be careful, I'm not sure there's anything special about binary trees or linked lists. Consequently Rust makes this sort of thing very nice.
I'm not sure how to respond to the rest of the comment. Personally, I'll take an expressive type system over a comprehensive unit test suite.
I'm not discounting your personal experience but I find it hard to believe you aren't encountering these types of problems, unless you are but just not noticing it. Curious about what kind of 'optimized' (optimized for what?) code is 'the worst'?
edit: I just re-read this and realized the tone was a little aggressive, I don't mean to come across that way, my bad.
I think other systems langs make the distinction, Rust does also, this is what I've been doing at my day job lately.
> That means, that, in over thirty years of writing software, I have encountered exactly 0.000000 binary trees.
I've been doing it for a third of that time and I've encountered binary trees and all kinds of other data structures a bunch of times. I don't do any big data or ML stuff, I was writing React frontends for about half of that, the last few years it's been systems programming with Rust; I still encountered these types of structures writing JS though.
> BTW: Binary trees and linked lists can be an issue in parallel-type programming. We had some image processing algorithms we did that used similar structures, and we had to be very careful. We often had to back out optimizations.
When sharing any memory between threads or tasks you have to be careful, I'm not sure there's anything special about binary trees or linked lists. Consequently Rust makes this sort of thing very nice.
I'm not sure how to respond to the rest of the comment. Personally, I'll take an expressive type system over a comprehensive unit test suite.
I'm not discounting your personal experience but I find it hard to believe you aren't encountering these types of problems, unless you are but just not noticing it. Curious about what kind of 'optimized' (optimized for what?) code is 'the worst'?
edit: I just re-read this and realized the tone was a little aggressive, I don't mean to come across that way, my bad.
I also apologize if I came across aggressively.
I ran a C++ shop for 25 years. We wrote “pipeline” software for image processing. REAL heavyweight data processing/DSP stuff. Optimizations were crucial, and we often took advantage of things like GPUs, and threading.
There be dragonnes...
I learned that explicit threading is a scary place, full of surprises.
Nowadays, I write in Swift (which I love -I think that Rust is similar). Explicit threading is barely supported, which is just fine, by me.
I can get defensive, because I have been treated rather badly, simply because of my age. No one ever bothers to look at my portfolio. They just start with the condescending drivel, sometimes, even accusing me of “faking” ten years of commit history, hundreds of thousands of lines of code, dozens and dozens of repos, hundreds of pages of articles, documentation, prose, and training modules.
It was exactly this kind of behavior that convinced me to not even bother trying to get work.
I’m not arrogant. I’m actually a really decent person; warm, compassionate, and a great team member. My LinkedIn profile is jammed with testimonials. I worked on a team with some of the finest engineers and scientists in the world, and had their complete confidence and trust.
But that doesn’t mean a thing, if I can’t give a proper answer to a “Draw Spunky” test.
I ran a C++ shop for 25 years. We wrote “pipeline” software for image processing. REAL heavyweight data processing/DSP stuff. Optimizations were crucial, and we often took advantage of things like GPUs, and threading.
There be dragonnes...
I learned that explicit threading is a scary place, full of surprises.
Nowadays, I write in Swift (which I love -I think that Rust is similar). Explicit threading is barely supported, which is just fine, by me.
I can get defensive, because I have been treated rather badly, simply because of my age. No one ever bothers to look at my portfolio. They just start with the condescending drivel, sometimes, even accusing me of “faking” ten years of commit history, hundreds of thousands of lines of code, dozens and dozens of repos, hundreds of pages of articles, documentation, prose, and training modules.
It was exactly this kind of behavior that convinced me to not even bother trying to get work.
I’m not arrogant. I’m actually a really decent person; warm, compassionate, and a great team member. My LinkedIn profile is jammed with testimonials. I worked on a team with some of the finest engineers and scientists in the world, and had their complete confidence and trust.
But that doesn’t mean a thing, if I can’t give a proper answer to a “Draw Spunky” test.
[deleted]
Applying the most generous interpretation principle[1] I suspect the binary tree test is not an old fart screen. Just a poor test of job aptitude.
Unfortunately, hiring is fairly broken in our industry, if you want a job, the best use of your time is probably to practice those coding tests.
[1] https://www.omahaic.com/blog/mindful-moments/mindful-moment-...
Unfortunately, hiring is fairly broken in our industry, if you want a job, the best use of your time is probably to practice those coding tests.
[1] https://www.omahaic.com/blog/mindful-moments/mindful-moment-...
Nah. I like writing code that ships. If it means that no one wants to hire me, I can live with that.
It does say a lot about the industry, though, that people don't care about shipping software.
Might explain some of these Jurassic-scale disasters we're constantly reading about...
It does say a lot about the industry, though, that people don't care about shipping software.
Might explain some of these Jurassic-scale disasters we're constantly reading about...
It's not just age-ism about people, the same prejudices are also applied against software.
I'm currently #1 in "clean EPE matched" on the Sintel AI benchmark - by re-implementing a 2006 paper. I'm taking advantage of the additional computing power that we have nowadays by brute-forcing what used to be a gradient-descent solver. It appears that people have re-invented the AI wheel many times, but nobody checked to see what was there before deep learning became fashionable.
I see the same issue everywhere. Companies have a large agile web 4.0 team using obscure frameworks that I had never heard of before. But all the stuff that they built would have been included in a $9 WordPress hosting plan.
I'm currently #1 in "clean EPE matched" on the Sintel AI benchmark - by re-implementing a 2006 paper. I'm taking advantage of the additional computing power that we have nowadays by brute-forcing what used to be a gradient-descent solver. It appears that people have re-invented the AI wheel many times, but nobody checked to see what was there before deep learning became fashionable.
I see the same issue everywhere. Companies have a large agile web 4.0 team using obscure frameworks that I had never heard of before. But all the stuff that they built would have been included in a $9 WordPress hosting plan.
This.
There’s a surprisingly massive amount of money being spent making more expensive, less stable and feature deficient versions of Squarespace everywhere.
I like to think I understand my work pretty well but in all the years I’ve been in this industry I can’t give a genuine reason for 90% of jobs in this industry to exist at all.
There’s a surprisingly massive amount of money being spent making more expensive, less stable and feature deficient versions of Squarespace everywhere.
I like to think I understand my work pretty well but in all the years I’ve been in this industry I can’t give a genuine reason for 90% of jobs in this industry to exist at all.
The other side of this, is that we are living in a "dependencyshpere," where people can't build projects on their own. This is a bit jarring to me. My first computer was an MC6800 STD Bus board, screwed onto a piece of wood, with a hex keypad and an 8-digit LED readout. I got pretty used to knowing what was going on under the hood. I can't even imagine looping in a bunch of code without understanding what it will do.
Dependencies are great. They are how we can do huge things with small teams. They are also bad (obligatory XKCD: https://xkcd.com/2347/).
Dependencies are great. They are how we can do huge things with small teams. They are also bad (obligatory XKCD: https://xkcd.com/2347/).
If you consider that almost every job in the tech industry is utterly useless, it makes sense why there is so much ageism.
Tech jobs these days are not about adding value, so your additional experience is worthless... The things that are valuable to companies are youth, optimism, loyalty and self-delusion.
Companies need a big headcount to give themselves leverage over governments and banks. Companies need a young workforce which they can influence and use as bargaining chips to make deals to get access to cheap money from the Fed.
The role of big corporations is to take people in when they're young and distort their worldviews so that they stay passive, childlike, compliant and docile as they get older - They're not going to rebel against the status quo, they're not going to complain about unjust government regulations which drive up the company stock price but at the same time diminish their freedom to leave the company and be independent.
Old people are not good because they can't be indoctrinated as easily and the benefits are much shorter-term since these old people don't have so many years left on this earth. The investment of brainwashing them doesn't yield so much and not for so long.
These big tech corporations are engaging in pure macroeconomics. They don't care about details like projects, clients and customers. In their world, the only things that affect their bottom line are:
- Governments
- Banks
- Investors
- Public opinion
Everything else is a detail which doesn't concern them. Everything that everyone does in those companies is ultimately about pleasing or manipulating these 4 entities in the most superficial way possible.
Tech jobs these days are not about adding value, so your additional experience is worthless... The things that are valuable to companies are youth, optimism, loyalty and self-delusion.
Companies need a big headcount to give themselves leverage over governments and banks. Companies need a young workforce which they can influence and use as bargaining chips to make deals to get access to cheap money from the Fed.
The role of big corporations is to take people in when they're young and distort their worldviews so that they stay passive, childlike, compliant and docile as they get older - They're not going to rebel against the status quo, they're not going to complain about unjust government regulations which drive up the company stock price but at the same time diminish their freedom to leave the company and be independent.
Old people are not good because they can't be indoctrinated as easily and the benefits are much shorter-term since these old people don't have so many years left on this earth. The investment of brainwashing them doesn't yield so much and not for so long.
These big tech corporations are engaging in pure macroeconomics. They don't care about details like projects, clients and customers. In their world, the only things that affect their bottom line are:
- Governments
- Banks
- Investors
- Public opinion
Everything else is a detail which doesn't concern them. Everything that everyone does in those companies is ultimately about pleasing or manipulating these 4 entities in the most superficial way possible.
You're exactly right.
I'd like to add on that everyone's retirement plans are held hostage by the same four groups that you were talking about. The 401(k) and IRA were both introduced in the 1970s, and now colossal amounts of money flow into those accounts, ensuring the financial future of Americans. They are low-risk investment plans for the future. Why are they low-risk? Because they invest in the "entire market" via mutual funds, and as we all know the market always goes up. Loosely- give your money to the banks, and they'll make sure the valuation of the companies that make up the index funds will always increase, thus giving you your year-on-year +10%, or whatever.
The corollary, of course, is that if you support any societal changes that would threaten the valuation of "the market", you'll tank everyone's investment accounts. Good luck reversing outsourcing trends, enacting progressive labor laws, or lowering the price of healthcare.
I don't even want to call it "investing" at this point. It's speculating. That's why I plan to buy land and live off of it as much as I can. I'd rather be poor and independent than rich and dependent.
I'd like to add on that everyone's retirement plans are held hostage by the same four groups that you were talking about. The 401(k) and IRA were both introduced in the 1970s, and now colossal amounts of money flow into those accounts, ensuring the financial future of Americans. They are low-risk investment plans for the future. Why are they low-risk? Because they invest in the "entire market" via mutual funds, and as we all know the market always goes up. Loosely- give your money to the banks, and they'll make sure the valuation of the companies that make up the index funds will always increase, thus giving you your year-on-year +10%, or whatever.
The corollary, of course, is that if you support any societal changes that would threaten the valuation of "the market", you'll tank everyone's investment accounts. Good luck reversing outsourcing trends, enacting progressive labor laws, or lowering the price of healthcare.
I don't even want to call it "investing" at this point. It's speculating. That's why I plan to buy land and live off of it as much as I can. I'd rather be poor and independent than rich and dependent.
That seems to be the logical conclusion. The current system is artificial, every piece is carefully stacked like a house of cards; this makes it very brittle.
We're in an Orwellian nightmare. By now, if the system collapses, it could be the most devastating crash in human history.
On the other hand, if things keep going in the same direction, we will end up in a horrible dystopia where life will only be worth living for the rich; everyone else will be slaves.
Also, I think I've figured out what the "defund the police" movement is really about; it's to allow Corporations to later step in and privatize the police force. Then they can claim the credit for restoring law and order and further gain people's trust whilst gaining more control over them. Seems kind of far fetched still, but few things would surprise me these days.
Also, I think I've figured out what the "defund the police" movement is really about; it's to allow Corporations to later step in and privatize the police force. Then they can claim the credit for restoring law and order and further gain people's trust whilst gaining more control over them. Seems kind of far fetched still, but few things would surprise me these days.
There's a saying about "Why look for conspiracy, where incompetence explains so much?"
That may be something that comes from it, but it really is about people that have been taking it in the shorts for decades, and have felt completely powerless (by design) to affect it. The "defund" thing is a blunt instrument that they hope would work; more as leverage to effect change, than anything else.
Of course, there are anarchists, who want all restraint removed from society. Those types of folks can usually be found in The Darwin Awards.
The rich are just really good at leveraging anything to their advantage, and have the tools to do it. They'll usually come out on top; regardless of what happens.
It's just that nowadays, "The Rich" includes a lot of young folks that look a lot like their employees. It isn't just a bunch of old robber barons with handlebars and muttonchops, anymore.
That may be something that comes from it, but it really is about people that have been taking it in the shorts for decades, and have felt completely powerless (by design) to affect it. The "defund" thing is a blunt instrument that they hope would work; more as leverage to effect change, than anything else.
Of course, there are anarchists, who want all restraint removed from society. Those types of folks can usually be found in The Darwin Awards.
The rich are just really good at leveraging anything to their advantage, and have the tools to do it. They'll usually come out on top; regardless of what happens.
It's just that nowadays, "The Rich" includes a lot of young folks that look a lot like their employees. It isn't just a bunch of old robber barons with handlebars and muttonchops, anymore.
Wow. That is so cynical, but also probably spot-on accurate.
I'm a cynical bastard, and must genuflect towards The Master.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP_gV2cWntg
I'm a cynical bastard, and must genuflect towards The Master.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP_gV2cWntg
You just became the first GitHub profile I follow. Good luck bro! I’m still just 35 but I know I’ll face the same music in 20 years or less.
That’s the puzzling thing about the ageism. The folks practicing it are gonna get to be in this seat, before they know it.
Hope that they are saving and investing, instead of splurging on Teslas and Mission District cribs.
Hope that they are saving and investing, instead of splurging on Teslas and Mission District cribs.
What percentage of income do you think young people should be saving? Because from what I see, this is the age of freely available personal finance advice, and more people seem to be following it at whichever age they stumble into stable income. Sure, there would be splurges here and there, but as far as I can tell, people are saving well.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/20/why-young-people-are-saving-...
https://www.vox.com/sponsored/13219620/chase-newsroom-genera...
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/20/why-young-people-are-saving-...
https://www.vox.com/sponsored/13219620/chase-newsroom-genera...
As much as you can in my opinion. I know someone who’s been saving 50+% of their income since they started their career 10–15 years ago (software engineer, well paid so they can afford to save that much, etc).
As a result, they don’t take shit from anyone. They don’t have to. They can afford to say « no » to overtime and spend time with their family. They can afford to quit when it sucks too much with no hope of improvement rather than destroy their health.
It’s a good position to be in.
They still live a good life. They just didn’t buy a new car ever three years, or brand new 700$ smartphones or computers but rather used ones that are a couple years old, packed their lunch instead of eating out at work, etc.
As a result, they don’t take shit from anyone. They don’t have to. They can afford to say « no » to overtime and spend time with their family. They can afford to quit when it sucks too much with no hope of improvement rather than destroy their health.
It’s a good position to be in.
They still live a good life. They just didn’t buy a new car ever three years, or brand new 700$ smartphones or computers but rather used ones that are a couple years old, packed their lunch instead of eating out at work, etc.
I just saved as much as I could. It usually ended up being around 40%.
> "What percentage of income do you think young people should be saving?"
As much as they possibly can. 16% is thin considering the salaries software developers commonly get.
The awareness that you don't have to tolerate the bad parts of your job one second longer than you feel like is the most liberating feeling in the world. It allows you to do the right thing instead of the most career-expedient thing at the workplace and to try out jobs you wouldn't dared to take a risk on before.
Aside from that, right now the money is good for developers but there is no guarantee that situation will last or your skills will continue to be valuable. Remember when COBOL was a ticket to a stable career? Remember when Flash development jobs were everywhere? A lot has changed over the past fifty years and there's no sign of that slowing down. If you zig when the job market zags, you may find yourself relying on your own savings earlier that you expected.
As much as they possibly can. 16% is thin considering the salaries software developers commonly get.
The awareness that you don't have to tolerate the bad parts of your job one second longer than you feel like is the most liberating feeling in the world. It allows you to do the right thing instead of the most career-expedient thing at the workplace and to try out jobs you wouldn't dared to take a risk on before.
Aside from that, right now the money is good for developers but there is no guarantee that situation will last or your skills will continue to be valuable. Remember when COBOL was a ticket to a stable career? Remember when Flash development jobs were everywhere? A lot has changed over the past fifty years and there's no sign of that slowing down. If you zig when the job market zags, you may find yourself relying on your own savings earlier that you expected.
> As much as they possibly can.
We can flesh this out, too.
I would add: "As much as they possibly can in tax-advantaged accounts, and then more!" And it turns out, you can save a shit ton in a tax advantaged way.
Let's look at 2020 limits, and assume a married couple, under 50, with one person earning as a software engineer:
$19,500 max contribution to a pre-tax 401(k). Many companies match. You should contribute all $19.5k, not just what you can to get the full match. If you're over 50, do the $6,500 catch-up.
But that's not all. The IRS limit on combined employer/employee contributions is $57,000. So if your employer allows it, contribute the remaining $37,500 post-tax and then convert it to a Roth IRA to at least get the earnings and withdrawal tax advantage (commonly known as the "mega-backdoor Roth").
$12,000 to an IRA (or Roth), $6,000 from both you and your spouse. If you like Roth but are beyond the income limits for the Roth, do the "regular backdoor Roth".
$7,100 to a family HSA. If your company offers it, do it. It's triple tax advantaged when used for health expenses.
Although they are old-school and don't yield much, US savings bonds can be a decent way to fill up an emergency fund. They are exempt from state taxes, and interest may be excluded from Federal income tax when used to finance education. There are a few to choose from, I particularly like the Series-I bonds. The government limits individuals to $10,000 per year for a total of $20,000 for a married couple.
So, if you are a very high earner, and are fortunate enough you can max all of these, you can save $96,100 per year, with some kind of tax advantage. There is probably more that I'm not thinking of. You should probably do all of these before you even think about looking at fully-taxed investments like your retail stock broker.
We can flesh this out, too.
I would add: "As much as they possibly can in tax-advantaged accounts, and then more!" And it turns out, you can save a shit ton in a tax advantaged way.
Let's look at 2020 limits, and assume a married couple, under 50, with one person earning as a software engineer:
$19,500 max contribution to a pre-tax 401(k). Many companies match. You should contribute all $19.5k, not just what you can to get the full match. If you're over 50, do the $6,500 catch-up.
But that's not all. The IRS limit on combined employer/employee contributions is $57,000. So if your employer allows it, contribute the remaining $37,500 post-tax and then convert it to a Roth IRA to at least get the earnings and withdrawal tax advantage (commonly known as the "mega-backdoor Roth").
$12,000 to an IRA (or Roth), $6,000 from both you and your spouse. If you like Roth but are beyond the income limits for the Roth, do the "regular backdoor Roth".
$7,100 to a family HSA. If your company offers it, do it. It's triple tax advantaged when used for health expenses.
Although they are old-school and don't yield much, US savings bonds can be a decent way to fill up an emergency fund. They are exempt from state taxes, and interest may be excluded from Federal income tax when used to finance education. There are a few to choose from, I particularly like the Series-I bonds. The government limits individuals to $10,000 per year for a total of $20,000 for a married couple.
So, if you are a very high earner, and are fortunate enough you can max all of these, you can save $96,100 per year, with some kind of tax advantage. There is probably more that I'm not thinking of. You should probably do all of these before you even think about looking at fully-taxed investments like your retail stock broker.
Its different for everyone but I'd say 10% minimum which is still more that the US average.
This is a bit oversimplified but savings rate is the one factor to how long it takes to become financially independent. Most people will want to enjoy life a bit but a high paying thrifty SWE could theoretically save 80% of their income and retire (or be financially independent and work on whatever they want) in about 6 years.
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-si...
This is a bit oversimplified but savings rate is the one factor to how long it takes to become financially independent. Most people will want to enjoy life a bit but a high paying thrifty SWE could theoretically save 80% of their income and retire (or be financially independent and work on whatever they want) in about 6 years.
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-si...
That’s roughly what I did, and I retired after 12 years.
I think it’s hard to save a percentage of your income when your income is low.
If I’d been saving 10% of my income until 4 years ago (some 16 years of work), I would have more than tripled the savings in the last 4 years. Instead, I saved a higher percentage for only the last 4 years, and have a substantially higher amount.
If I’d been saving 10% of my income until 4 years ago (some 16 years of work), I would have more than tripled the savings in the last 4 years. Instead, I saved a higher percentage for only the last 4 years, and have a substantially higher amount.
Create a spreadsheet! I did this 25+ years ago to get my own customized answer to this question. One row per quarter (4 rows per year). Each row takes previous row's balance, adds % ROI, adds contributed savings to get the next row's balance forecast. Not a complicated spreadsheet. As each quarter passes, replace the forecasted/calculated balance with your actual savings balance.
Don't hard-code the % ROI and quarterly contribution in each row; put them in cells at the top. You can then play with % ROI and quarterly contribution values to see how much you'll have when. Take each rows balance and divide by (85-age) to get a conservative estimate of annual income if retired (conservatively assumes future ROI == inflation).
Fyi, I'm a 59 yo who knew ageism in hiring was coming and is so happy that my otherwise foolish self came up with a basic plan 25+ years ago to know if he was on track or not (and managed to stay well ahead of it). Helped with spending decisions too: if I was ahead, I'd buy that motorcycle; if not I didn't.
Don't hard-code the % ROI and quarterly contribution in each row; put them in cells at the top. You can then play with % ROI and quarterly contribution values to see how much you'll have when. Take each rows balance and divide by (85-age) to get a conservative estimate of annual income if retired (conservatively assumes future ROI == inflation).
Fyi, I'm a 59 yo who knew ageism in hiring was coming and is so happy that my otherwise foolish self came up with a basic plan 25+ years ago to know if he was on track or not (and managed to stay well ahead of it). Helped with spending decisions too: if I was ahead, I'd buy that motorcycle; if not I didn't.
I don't know how true that is. Of the ones we hear from/about, how many were acting discriminatory 25 years ago? I think we'd have heard from one or two at least, writing confessional blogs or tweetstorms or whatever, but I can't recall reading anything like that.
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No, see they are gonna be retired by 38. See, this line they drew extrapolating their stock and salary since starting work in 2012 will keep going up and up...
Given the market over the past 100 years, that seems like a fairly reasonable assumption?
Depends if parent means a single stock (like the one given as salary) or a more diversified portfolio. While on aggregate the stock market had a rather stable growth, this is not the case of individual assets.
It isn't going to go up every decade. Also Check markets in Japan and Europe which have been flat 30, 20 years.
That’s because GDP is very tied to population growth, which essentially stoped in Japan and the EU. It still happens in the US due to immigration, but once that stops, then we will stall out as well.
Maybe but the link between GDP and stock market isn't strong either.
Funny, I'm also 58. I have also hit the ageism wall (although I'm currently at a place where I'm not the oldest, but then the software is also decades old). My plan is to build a bigger war chest while I can then go back full time to my first love, writing Free software. It's what used to be called "retirement" back when businesses were not run by 20-year-olds who plan to live forever.
Cool! You have my full support.
I work harder than I ever have in my life, and love it.
I work harder than I ever have in my life, and love it.
I won't say ageism the main reason I moved from programming to tech writing, but it's certainly been something on my mind. I look younger than my 53 years, but I'm pretty clearly not in my early 30s anymore. But, I haven't experienced any real ageism in this field, at least yet.
Thanks for your Service.
We desperately need a lot of skilled tech writers. The state of documentation, these days, fills me with despair.
We desperately need a lot of skilled tech writers. The state of documentation, these days, fills me with despair.
Is there a free resource on how write great documentation?
If you haven't seen it, there's a great community[1] geared toward documentation. Their guide[2] is an excellent starting point on documentation.
1. https://www.writethedocs.org/ 2. https://www.writethedocs.org/guide/
1. https://www.writethedocs.org/ 2. https://www.writethedocs.org/guide/
This is an excellent resource. Thanks!
I believe so. I think I have encountered references to them, on HN. I think there was a thread about this, a week or two ago.
Chis,
If somebody hires you based on this thread let us (or me) know who the employer is.
Like 'headmelted' pointed out, part of 'agiesm' is that it’s just that you’ll be impossible to abuse relative to someone who they know needs the money.
Programmers, especially the young are insecure douche bags, and I suspect that their insecurity leads to hiring docile individuals who can be coerced.
Like 'headmelted' pointed out, part of 'agiesm' is that it’s just that you’ll be impossible to abuse relative to someone who they know needs the money.
Programmers, especially the young are insecure douche bags, and I suspect that their insecurity leads to hiring docile individuals who can be coerced.
Thanks. I suspect not. I'm more interested in things like working on NPO projects and whatnot.
I like helping people help people. What I'm just beginning, now, is a Swift SDK for goTenna devices. These are the types of things that first responders to disasters often use. My goal is to make it open-source, MIT-licensed. I may also work on the Meshtastic project. It's entirely possible that the project may not make it. goTenna likes to play their cards close to the chest. Meshtastic looks good, but I need to get around to flashing these devices, and that's just a pain.
I have some prior art in this kind of thing. I have another project that I did, that is taking off in a big way. It finally got to the point where a bunch of really energetic and talented people piled on, and now it's becoming a world standard.
When projects don't make money, they tend to take longer to get in the air. I started that project over ten years ago. I play the long game, which I learned that from working at a Japanese company.
I like helping people help people. What I'm just beginning, now, is a Swift SDK for goTenna devices. These are the types of things that first responders to disasters often use. My goal is to make it open-source, MIT-licensed. I may also work on the Meshtastic project. It's entirely possible that the project may not make it. goTenna likes to play their cards close to the chest. Meshtastic looks good, but I need to get around to flashing these devices, and that's just a pain.
I have some prior art in this kind of thing. I have another project that I did, that is taking off in a big way. It finally got to the point where a bunch of really energetic and talented people piled on, and now it's becoming a world standard.
When projects don't make money, they tend to take longer to get in the air. I started that project over ten years ago. I play the long game, which I learned that from working at a Japanese company.
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Not sure if this will help, but I'll share my very recent story of how ageism looks from the other (youngish people) side, which contains some pitfalls to avoid.
I'm 32, and the technical lead of a mid-sized research computing / ML team in quasi-academia. I'm the one who tells the boss whether a hire is technically competent, performing up to standard, is meshing well with the team, etc. So I don't make hire/fire decisions myself but have substantial influence on them.
Usually, when we hire people > 30, they are PhDs with a specific specialty, like statistics. But recently we hired a guy from industry in his early 50s to do some programming, web dev, and light ML. He had, obviously a long CV with programming and some practice with ML/statistics, although nothing related to our field. Here are some of the things this guy has done in the ~1 months before and since his hiring:
1. He frequently bullshits in presentations and meetings, pretending to know things he doesn't know.
2. Very shortly after joining, he has recommended we radically rebuild several of our systems in different, "better" ways -- ways which he's familiar with. For example, we have a web app on AWS Ubuntu, and he has repeatedly asked why we can't just run a Windows server.
3. If he doesn't know something, he insists on getting step-by-step tutorials from technical people in the lab, but tutorials in how to do things HIS way. For example, we all use Linux and an SSH client, but he wasted 2 hours of my time asking how to SSH into AWS using PuTTY on Windows, how to copy files using WinSCP, etc, since of course he only uses Windows. He claims he'll learn Linux eventually, but wants to use what he knows "for now", "so that he can more rapidly produce results".
4. The first time I met the guy in person (not immediately due to COVID), he had plopped himself and his laptop down in my desk, without asking, and even readjusted my chair settings, and complained about my office being messy. I'm #2 in seniority...
Any one of these alone would be...annoying, but all together he is almost a caricature of every ageist stereotype in tech. He expects a level of respect he feels is due his experience level, while simultaneously he resists learning anything about the way his new organization does things...presumably because he knows better?
It puts me in an awkward situation because I'm kind of his technical supervisor. If he were a new graduate student, I would tell him to cut out the bullshit, figure things out, and quit wasting my time (and commandeering my desk). Since he is almost twice my age it is too awkward to read him the riot act, though, and I don't really know how to deal with this.
My takeaway is that an older person in a new tech job should really, really avoid displaying arrogance and entitlement. Respect is earned, not given; even if you've spent 30+ years in the field, we whippersnappers don't know how competent you are (or not), until it's demonstrated. I'm not saying you made any of these mistakes, but sometimes it is easy to do some of these things unconsciously. Probably you are perfectly competent, but people like this guy are working against you.
I'm 32, and the technical lead of a mid-sized research computing / ML team in quasi-academia. I'm the one who tells the boss whether a hire is technically competent, performing up to standard, is meshing well with the team, etc. So I don't make hire/fire decisions myself but have substantial influence on them.
Usually, when we hire people > 30, they are PhDs with a specific specialty, like statistics. But recently we hired a guy from industry in his early 50s to do some programming, web dev, and light ML. He had, obviously a long CV with programming and some practice with ML/statistics, although nothing related to our field. Here are some of the things this guy has done in the ~1 months before and since his hiring:
1. He frequently bullshits in presentations and meetings, pretending to know things he doesn't know.
2. Very shortly after joining, he has recommended we radically rebuild several of our systems in different, "better" ways -- ways which he's familiar with. For example, we have a web app on AWS Ubuntu, and he has repeatedly asked why we can't just run a Windows server.
3. If he doesn't know something, he insists on getting step-by-step tutorials from technical people in the lab, but tutorials in how to do things HIS way. For example, we all use Linux and an SSH client, but he wasted 2 hours of my time asking how to SSH into AWS using PuTTY on Windows, how to copy files using WinSCP, etc, since of course he only uses Windows. He claims he'll learn Linux eventually, but wants to use what he knows "for now", "so that he can more rapidly produce results".
4. The first time I met the guy in person (not immediately due to COVID), he had plopped himself and his laptop down in my desk, without asking, and even readjusted my chair settings, and complained about my office being messy. I'm #2 in seniority...
Any one of these alone would be...annoying, but all together he is almost a caricature of every ageist stereotype in tech. He expects a level of respect he feels is due his experience level, while simultaneously he resists learning anything about the way his new organization does things...presumably because he knows better?
It puts me in an awkward situation because I'm kind of his technical supervisor. If he were a new graduate student, I would tell him to cut out the bullshit, figure things out, and quit wasting my time (and commandeering my desk). Since he is almost twice my age it is too awkward to read him the riot act, though, and I don't really know how to deal with this.
My takeaway is that an older person in a new tech job should really, really avoid displaying arrogance and entitlement. Respect is earned, not given; even if you've spent 30+ years in the field, we whippersnappers don't know how competent you are (or not), until it's demonstrated. I'm not saying you made any of these mistakes, but sometimes it is easy to do some of these things unconsciously. Probably you are perfectly competent, but people like this guy are working against you.
Thanks for that.
I'd say that's the type of stuff that insecure people do. As a manager (the one that made hire and fire decisions), I saw this type of behavior from folks across the age range. I'd gently suggest that, were you to look around, you'd see others behaving in similar manner; but, for whatever reason, you are noticing it more with this chap.
I remember seeing that attractive folks (of any gender) tended to have these types of behaviors ignored, and "attractive" doesn't just mean someone with whom we want to bump uglies, but also people that satisfy our confirmation bias.
I know that I had to constantly be examining that. I worked in an extremely diverse environment, and managed a lot of folks with a lot of quirks (and brains).
I'd say that's the type of stuff that insecure people do. As a manager (the one that made hire and fire decisions), I saw this type of behavior from folks across the age range. I'd gently suggest that, were you to look around, you'd see others behaving in similar manner; but, for whatever reason, you are noticing it more with this chap.
I remember seeing that attractive folks (of any gender) tended to have these types of behaviors ignored, and "attractive" doesn't just mean someone with whom we want to bump uglies, but also people that satisfy our confirmation bias.
I know that I had to constantly be examining that. I worked in an extremely diverse environment, and managed a lot of folks with a lot of quirks (and brains).
> I'd gently suggest that, were you to look around, you'd see others behaving in similar manner; but, for whatever reason, you are noticing it more with this chap...confirmation bias.
I agree, I'm well aware of the possibility and am trying to combat it the best I can. But @CarbyAu is right, no one trained me in how to deal with this kind of situation and it is just inherently difficult for everyone.
That said, from his side, if I were a member of a $GROUP that had certain negative stereotypes about it, I'd consider it wise for my own personal interests to try to avoid playing directly into the stereotype.
I agree, I'm well aware of the possibility and am trying to combat it the best I can. But @CarbyAu is right, no one trained me in how to deal with this kind of situation and it is just inherently difficult for everyone.
That said, from his side, if I were a member of a $GROUP that had certain negative stereotypes about it, I'd consider it wise for my own personal interests to try to avoid playing directly into the stereotype.
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"but, for whatever reason, you are noticing it more"
Most societies indoctrinate people to "respect their elders" to varying degrees.
A younger person having authority over an older person is a role reversal many are not equipped to deal with, from either side of that equation.
So it is noticed more.
Further, this elephant in the room has to be acknowledged before either side can move on meaningfully. But you can't "discriminate based on age" or you might end up in court depending on where in the world you are.
Makes it a tricky problem that I am not surprised people just "avoid".
Most societies indoctrinate people to "respect their elders" to varying degrees.
A younger person having authority over an older person is a role reversal many are not equipped to deal with, from either side of that equation.
So it is noticed more.
Further, this elephant in the room has to be acknowledged before either side can move on meaningfully. But you can't "discriminate based on age" or you might end up in court depending on where in the world you are.
Makes it a tricky problem that I am not surprised people just "avoid".
I don't think age is the problem there; the guy just sounds like a narcissist. #1 and #2 are huge red flags-- "fake it 'til you redefine success [on your terms]" is a sign of someone mimicking competence.
Just wait until one of "his" solutions fails to perform-- then it's inevitably going to be your fault. Somehow.
Just wait until one of "his" solutions fails to perform-- then it's inevitably going to be your fault. Somehow.
To be that old, and not ‘know’ Linux, and insist on using Windows, that is more of an issue to me.
He has been in the industry for over three decades and is afraid of a CLI?
He has been in the industry for over three decades and is afraid of a CLI?
I'm not sure this is an age thing, but a personality thing. I've worked with several people in their 20s and 30s who have had one or more of these traits, as well as older folks who had few or none.
I'm stopping short of making any generalizations, because in my experience the evidence (for me at least) isn't there to make any. Perhaps things are different elsewhere, though. I'm only speaking from my experience, as I suppose we all are.
I'm stopping short of making any generalizations, because in my experience the evidence (for me at least) isn't there to make any. Perhaps things are different elsewhere, though. I'm only speaking from my experience, as I suppose we all are.
Do you want to work together on a thing?
That depends. I’m only interested in doing stuff I want to do; the way I want to do it.
Most of that stuff is now water under the bridge. I’m pretty hesitant to get into the industry, in its current state. Not much fun to be had.
I’m already committed to working on a nonprofit, but we’ll see how that develops.
Most of that stuff is now water under the bridge. I’m pretty hesitant to get into the industry, in its current state. Not much fun to be had.
I’m already committed to working on a nonprofit, but we’ll see how that develops.
“I only want to do what I want to do,” is pretty self-limiting.
Not only does it cut off any way for you to grow, it makes it hard for companies to hire you over programmers willing to do anything. And I don’t mean that in a bad way but a realistic way - companies hire and want to keep you on but know you’re not going to be interested in any of their projects so the time investment has been wasted.
Not only does it cut off any way for you to grow, it makes it hard for companies to hire you over programmers willing to do anything. And I don’t mean that in a bad way but a realistic way - companies hire and want to keep you on but know you’re not going to be interested in any of their projects so the time investment has been wasted.
Bingo. See "not looking for work," above.
When I first left my job, I was insecure, and companies could have taken advantage of that.
No more.
When I first left my job, I was insecure, and companies could have taken advantage of that.
No more.
Oh, yeah...
To the "Mike" that sent me that wonderful little note:
I replied, then realized that you had used a honeypot email as the address, so I'll post what I wrote here. It would have gone to your email, otherwise. I would like to mention that I stand behind every post I make, and every email I send. I deleted my last anonymous account many moons ago.
> You still sound insecure.
:)
Probably. It's not your problem, though. It's mine. I am constantly working on that.
I will say that it was pretty devastating to get assaulted for my age. It totally rocked my world. I'm definitely still recovering from that, and I am still quite angry about it.
Thanks (really) for taking the time to look at my HN page and sending this. I regularly get attacked by some pretty savage folks (comes from the NPO work I do), so your note doesn't bother me at all.
Heck, maybe we have a lot in common. You know where to reach me. I'm a pretty decent chap.
This is my personal email.
Stay safe.
To the "Mike" that sent me that wonderful little note:
I replied, then realized that you had used a honeypot email as the address, so I'll post what I wrote here. It would have gone to your email, otherwise. I would like to mention that I stand behind every post I make, and every email I send. I deleted my last anonymous account many moons ago.
> You still sound insecure.
:)
Probably. It's not your problem, though. It's mine. I am constantly working on that.
I will say that it was pretty devastating to get assaulted for my age. It totally rocked my world. I'm definitely still recovering from that, and I am still quite angry about it.
Thanks (really) for taking the time to look at my HN page and sending this. I regularly get attacked by some pretty savage folks (comes from the NPO work I do), so your note doesn't bother me at all.
Heck, maybe we have a lot in common. You know where to reach me. I'm a pretty decent chap.
This is my personal email.
Stay safe.
Oh, that's good, I have worked with nonprofits in the past to good outcomes.
NPOs can be crazy places, though.
Can be fun, once you get past the urges to strangle people...
Can be fun, once you get past the urges to strangle people...
Have you ever considered working in government? The pay isn't the best, but the work can be satisfying. I'm specifically thinking about the US Digital Service.
I'll have to look at that. Right now, government work is profoundly unattractive to me. It seems that every single branch has become a political weapon. My father was in the CIA, and became quite disillusioned, for exactly that reason.
I've linked his eulogy before. He was an interesting chap: http://cmarshall.com/miscellaneous/MikeMarshall.htm
I have been doing a lot of work for mutual aid organizations, and my work has had some tremendous impact. I seem to be able to make a difference, there.
I've linked his eulogy before. He was an interesting chap: http://cmarshall.com/miscellaneous/MikeMarshall.htm
I have been doing a lot of work for mutual aid organizations, and my work has had some tremendous impact. I seem to be able to make a difference, there.
You’re mindset sounds so similar to mine it’s eerie. Good luck with your endeavors.
I'm into technical writing, too! What are you working on?
You can look at my GH ID to see the organizations I work in: https://github.com/ChrisMarshallNY
Also, you can look at my SO Story, for a fuller (and longer) picture: https://stackoverflow.com/story/chrismarshall
TL;DR. I stay busy.
Also, you can look at my SO Story, for a fuller (and longer) picture: https://stackoverflow.com/story/chrismarshall
TL;DR. I stay busy.
FWIW, based on your comments alone, I can tell that I would've enjoyed working with/for you.
I'm a riot.
Irreverent sumbitch. Not everyone loves me.
Irreverent sumbitch. Not everyone loves me.
Describes me and basically everyone I've ever enjoyed working with. If no one hates you, no one loves you either. Cheers. :)
Luckily software world is embracing remote work as a side effect of pandemic. This helps a lot in the fight against ageism.
It's not just in tech.
You hear responses from younger generations like "Ok Boomer" to their elders' opinions and it is so cringe-worthy.
I don't think everything my parents taught me was perfect or even always correct but there's an irreplaceable amount of wisdom that comes from being alive twice as long.
You hear responses from younger generations like "Ok Boomer" to their elders' opinions and it is so cringe-worthy.
I don't think everything my parents taught me was perfect or even always correct but there's an irreplaceable amount of wisdom that comes from being alive twice as long.
Every time I hear that phrase I get the cold chill down my spine. It just feels so disrespectful and visceral.
I’m in my 30s and was taught to have basic respect for others. People think my generation is entitled. Man our generation has another thing coming.
I’m in my 30s and was taught to have basic respect for others. People think my generation is entitled. Man our generation has another thing coming.
I don't like it but I can see some of the tensions that create it. The UK in particular seems to be going down a road where all the political decisions are being made for my generation. This won't work out well in the long term.
Im in my mid 30s, I liked OK Boomer as a meme to let lose some emotion steam but then folks started to take it a little too seriously.
To dismiss ideas outright on age alone is just stupid.
To dismiss ideas outright on age alone is just stupid.
The idea that "ok boomer" is supposed to be dismissive of opinions and personal assertions based exclusively on age is a red herring.
It makes as much sense as asserting that the "Karen" meme is dismissive of women.
That was never the point, was it?
The "ok boomer" meme is dismissive of ideas that are forced onto others based on absurd appeals to authority and in spite of their lack any substance or support or rational basis. We're talking about the type of arguments that boil down to "shut up you little brat I know better than you just because."
It makes as much sense as asserting that the "Karen" meme is dismissive of women.
That was never the point, was it?
The "ok boomer" meme is dismissive of ideas that are forced onto others based on absurd appeals to authority and in spite of their lack any substance or support or rational basis. We're talking about the type of arguments that boil down to "shut up you little brat I know better than you just because."
Sure, that's the original context. It's just that "ok boomer" is very often used to dismiss an older person [older than the person responding] asking someone to do anything (or giving advice in anything). Just as "Karen" is very often just a coded "bitch", used when an woman [older than the person responding] asks someone to do anything
It's extremely disingenuous to try to assert that the "ok boomer" meme is used to dismiss questions or requests or opinions made by older people, or that the "karen" meme is used to dismiss questions or requests made by women. Its in fact a gross misrepresentation of what those memes are and have always been.
No it's not -- it's not my fault people are misusing the memes! They definitely are heavily used to dismiss in the manner I've described as well as being used in their correct original context. You might not like that people aren't deploying the internet memes the way you think they should be deployed, but it's definitely not disingenuous to point out that's what's happening. It's dismissive and mocking (for good reason!) but it's also something that's blown up, and when that happens the original intent and subtleties get rounded off or lost, so in many cases it's now used in any context, not just the ones where it was originally totally applicable.
> You hear responses from younger generations like "Ok Boomer" to their elders' opinions and it is so cringe-worthy.
The problem I see is that some elders feel that their personal opinions hold some kind of authoritative value over everyone else's in spite of their lack of substance or reasoning or connection with reality just because they were born further in the past.
In fact, the term "OK boomer" originated in elders systematically dismissing and criticizing other people's opinions based on their age. Thus it's quite ironic how that meme is criticized for the very same regrettablr pattern of behavior it criticizes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_boomer
Being alive for longer doesn't correlate with wisdom or knowledge or insightfulness, and if you have a hard time presenting and defending your point of view with rational arguments and facts that you feel compelled to resort to absurd appeals to authority to force your views onto the world then your attitude itself is the problem.
The problem I see is that some elders feel that their personal opinions hold some kind of authoritative value over everyone else's in spite of their lack of substance or reasoning or connection with reality just because they were born further in the past.
In fact, the term "OK boomer" originated in elders systematically dismissing and criticizing other people's opinions based on their age. Thus it's quite ironic how that meme is criticized for the very same regrettablr pattern of behavior it criticizes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK_boomer
Being alive for longer doesn't correlate with wisdom or knowledge or insightfulness, and if you have a hard time presenting and defending your point of view with rational arguments and facts that you feel compelled to resort to absurd appeals to authority to force your views onto the world then your attitude itself is the problem.
Actually being alive for longer is necessary to achieve wisdom. The problem you are pointing out is that it’s not sufficient.
Wisdom is not a function of age. It's not a present you open on your birthday. You may get wiser as years go by, but that doesn't mean you get to be wiser than those around you. There are plenty of people who are wiser and more knowledgeable and insightful than those who were born earlier. There are also plenty of people that in spite of their age they attained very little wisdom to show for. The "ok boomer" meme originated in cases where this particular blend of people started to rant about younger people basing their attacks and criticisms exclusively on their age difference.
There’s another word for elder “wisdom” - superstition.
I question anything I’m told that doesn’t have proof attached, or singular experiences that are then extrapolated to cover an infinite future.
This always comes up in the same places: - Piss poor processes - Refusal to apply updates - Unverifiable decisions that exist for years
There’s a reason people say, “Ok boomer”.
I question anything I’m told that doesn’t have proof attached, or singular experiences that are then extrapolated to cover an infinite future.
This always comes up in the same places: - Piss poor processes - Refusal to apply updates - Unverifiable decisions that exist for years
There’s a reason people say, “Ok boomer”.
There's good reasons alright. But as with everything humans adopt, it's also abused to oblivion in many situation where it doesn't even remotely apply.
The meme arose out of the reality that a vast majority of wealth/power has accumulated to the boomers. When they give advice, it is to be taken with a grain of salt, because their life assumptions will be vastly different (and wrong) for the current context of the youth (who are poor, on average).
https://www.businessinsider.com/millennials-less-wealth-net-...
https://www.businessinsider.com/millennials-less-wealth-net-...
The difference, these days, is social media. It acts as an accelerant to prejudice, recklessness, and disunity.
Disrespecting elders is a time-honored aspect of nature. Even critters have it (watch puppies and kittens ignoring their parents).
But puppies don't have a worldwide graph of other puppies that establish feedback loops to encourage each other to eat chocolate.
Disrespecting elders is a time-honored aspect of nature. Even critters have it (watch puppies and kittens ignoring their parents).
But puppies don't have a worldwide graph of other puppies that establish feedback loops to encourage each other to eat chocolate.
> Disrespecting elders is a time-honored aspect of nature. Even critters have it (watch puppies and kittens ignoring their parents).
Nonsense. Puppies and kittens are not adults, are they? The "ok boomer" meme originated in people from older demographics criticizing adults in their 20s and 30s based on blanket and entirely baseless assertions that somehow they knew better just because they were born earlier.
If you want to take metaphors out of nature, you can start off by learning how young lions expel older lions from their pride.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW-_KC5wtXU
Its one thing to show respect to everyone around you, but its an entirely different thing to have members of that community systematically insult and aggravate younger members for absurd reasons and using ridiculous arguments, and still in return expect that that sort of antisocial and downright sociopath behavior should command reverence from the community, specially those who are directly attacked by streams of insults.
Nonsense. Puppies and kittens are not adults, are they? The "ok boomer" meme originated in people from older demographics criticizing adults in their 20s and 30s based on blanket and entirely baseless assertions that somehow they knew better just because they were born earlier.
If you want to take metaphors out of nature, you can start off by learning how young lions expel older lions from their pride.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW-_KC5wtXU
Its one thing to show respect to everyone around you, but its an entirely different thing to have members of that community systematically insult and aggravate younger members for absurd reasons and using ridiculous arguments, and still in return expect that that sort of antisocial and downright sociopath behavior should command reverence from the community, specially those who are directly attacked by streams of insults.
I think you're replying to someone else. I never mentioned "OK Boomer."
My comment on social media applies to many different things; not just ageism.
And, as is being amply demonstrated by thousands of people all over the world, it's not particularly helpful for people that aren't in a certain class, to dismiss the experience of people that are in a class.
I'm not a woman, black, brown, gay, or disabled, so it is not helpful for me to judge whether or not those folks experience difficulty from people that look like me.
I am, however, an older tech worker, and can confirm, from personal experience, that people like me, get a lot of friction; sometimes, from other people like me (It's not just young folks that engage in ageism).
BTW: I grew up in Africa. I'm familiar with the way lions deal with each other; including the practice of new pride leaders killing all the cubs from the previous pride. I think that may also resonate in our industry.
My comment on social media applies to many different things; not just ageism.
And, as is being amply demonstrated by thousands of people all over the world, it's not particularly helpful for people that aren't in a certain class, to dismiss the experience of people that are in a class.
I'm not a woman, black, brown, gay, or disabled, so it is not helpful for me to judge whether or not those folks experience difficulty from people that look like me.
I am, however, an older tech worker, and can confirm, from personal experience, that people like me, get a lot of friction; sometimes, from other people like me (It's not just young folks that engage in ageism).
BTW: I grew up in Africa. I'm familiar with the way lions deal with each other; including the practice of new pride leaders killing all the cubs from the previous pride. I think that may also resonate in our industry.
While I agree with that, I also think there’s a substantial amount of old idiots out there (same as for the younger generation), and I have little issue saying or hearing ‘ok boomer’ instead of ‘ok idiot’, if the topic is relevant enough.
Also 58 now is not the same as 58 30 years ago.
The state and change of culture and technology is quite different.
I consider age like time an illusion. There’s biological considerations but I reject all the age cliches and sayings. Defy labels, limitations, distorted reminders — focus on living.
The state and change of culture and technology is quite different.
I consider age like time an illusion. There’s biological considerations but I reject all the age cliches and sayings. Defy labels, limitations, distorted reminders — focus on living.
this, so much this
> I told my wife that it was very possible that we would be millionaires by the time we hit 40.
Are you being colloquial?
Being a millionaire by 40 (in 7 years or less) is quite likely for anyone with the talent to launch a startup, by working at a regular big conpany.
Launching a startup lowers those odds by quite a bit (but increases the small chance of being a manymillionaire).
Are you being colloquial?
Being a millionaire by 40 (in 7 years or less) is quite likely for anyone with the talent to launch a startup, by working at a regular big conpany.
Launching a startup lowers those odds by quite a bit (but increases the small chance of being a manymillionaire).
Funny piece. It can be so easy to waste time when we have the internet. I think the most dangerous distractions are the ones that feel productive but don’t actually work toward your goals. For example, browsing hacker news. Such an activity is useful every now and then, but at least for myself I often scroll around only to realize later that it was a massive waste of time I could’ve spent working on something I care about. I think the brain justifies it since hey, at least I’m “learning” something (not really).
Even something like an addictive videogame is designed to make you feel productive by giving you levels to progress through etc—fundamentally I think we all have a desire to produce, it’s just easy to spend time putting that energy into the wrong forms of productive activity, since these are usually easier and less isolating than actually producing crafts or products.
Even something like an addictive videogame is designed to make you feel productive by giving you levels to progress through etc—fundamentally I think we all have a desire to produce, it’s just easy to spend time putting that energy into the wrong forms of productive activity, since these are usually easier and less isolating than actually producing crafts or products.
People are now terrified of putting down a screen and being left alone with their own thoughts for more than 30 seconds. It's horrifying what's bouncing around up in that dome, and having to process it.
But this is exactly what we did before. We got bored, we were wasting time, we were experimenting, and that's how great ideas came around.
But this is exactly what we did before. We got bored, we were wasting time, we were experimenting, and that's how great ideas came around.
Idk if it's just terrified, but I think we're addicted. This probably sounds ridiculous but I recently blocked some apps and sites on my phone and actually felt a little off for a day, like my sleep was weird. I think there was a slight withdrawal from the constant bombardment of stuff. It is helping kill my Facebook habit. I don't even really like the site, I just check it impulsively. It's weird.
Reddit is another one, the infinite scroll I think is addictive. Trying to kill that habit. But there is useful information on there so it's hard to disable it completely.
Reddit is another one, the infinite scroll I think is addictive. Trying to kill that habit. But there is useful information on there so it's hard to disable it completely.
Yep. I deactivated Facebook and it took a week or so to get used to not having it. I feel a lot better without it that I will probably delete it. I do want to keep messenger so that’s one of the only reasons to keep it.
You don't need a Facebook-account in order to use Facebook Messenger.
True, but AFAIK, you can't keep your contacts (friends?) list when you delete the account and create a new one just on Messenger. An alternative is to deactivate the account [1] – this effectively removes your account from Facebook, but allows you to keep Messenger with all the contacts. (It probably also keeps other associated accounts, such as Instagram.) Although, it means that the moment you log into Facebook, your account comes back up, with all the relationships that were left off, tags, photos, etc.
[1]: https://www.facebook.com/help/214376678584711
[1]: https://www.facebook.com/help/214376678584711
Looking at certain sites just becomes a muscle reflex. The second I'm bored, I feel the urge to look at my phone.
If you have a large enough rotation of websites, you never feel properly bored, so you can spend the entire day mindlessly browsing.
I think it's easy to tell whether you're browsing with intent or just killing time. It's just hard to close the lid and go do something else, especially if you've been doing it for so long that you forgot what "something else" is.
If you have a large enough rotation of websites, you never feel properly bored, so you can spend the entire day mindlessly browsing.
I think it's easy to tell whether you're browsing with intent or just killing time. It's just hard to close the lid and go do something else, especially if you've been doing it for so long that you forgot what "something else" is.
Delete the mobile apps. I scrolled reddit to infinity on my phone going through news that would make me depressed. I deleted the app and have been happy ever since. I come here twice a day for 10 minutes instead and my screen time reduced by 40minutes at least. I don’t feel gloomy all the time because of news too
This is wonderful advice. I went on a news hiatus some time ago and can attest to its benefit.
FWIW I did something similar. Deleted my reddit account and now just occasionally visit specific subreddits that I used to subscribe to. I find that actually going to a subreddit to find specific content I want to look at helps break the loop of endless scrolling but I still get just as informed/entertained.
I use this app on Android to browse reddit. It limits the amount of posts so you only spend a few minutes on it.
https://f-droid.org/packages/com.aaronhalbert.nosurfforreddi...
Yes, definitely. I feel this way as well. It's not ridiculous at all. Forced withdrawal is the only way to begin recovery and get back sensitivity.
People are extremely scared of the word "addiction" though. I feel the same way about sugar and basically all carbohydrates at all and it's very challenging to talk about.
People are extremely scared of the word "addiction" though. I feel the same way about sugar and basically all carbohydrates at all and it's very challenging to talk about.
I’m happy to be free from sugar since a few months.
I’m adding salt in my oats instead of sugar. Or just fruits. Or cocoa powder.
Cutting carbs though, esp. fruits, is way harder.
Cutting carbs though, esp. fruits, is way harder.
Congratulations! I’ve been fruit free and almost vegetable free for 3 years and it’s been the best time of my life. I’ve lost over 200 pounds and kept it off for longer than I ever have in 3+ decades of weight loss attempts.
It feels like how I treat junk food and snacks: I’m welcome to have as much as I want, but I have to go out of my way to get it every time. Never stock up, which in this analogy would mean never install the native app or subscribe to newsletters or notifications.
For reddit et al, I only view it on the browser. Sure, I get bombarded by popovers and alerts telling me to install the app, but I have to work my way to get to the content if I really wanted to view it.
For reddit et al, I only view it on the browser. Sure, I get bombarded by popovers and alerts telling me to install the app, but I have to work my way to get to the content if I really wanted to view it.
You can use extensions to either delete or remove the infinite scroll.
In my opinion, the infinite scroll is both addictive and fruitless. I rarely find something fun when it's buried deep in the feed. That's pretty obvious. If it was a fun post, it would've been at the top, right?
If you don't trust any extension with site-reading capability, here's a simple solution: scroll down as much as you are comfortable, and then work upwards!
In my opinion, the infinite scroll is both addictive and fruitless. I rarely find something fun when it's buried deep in the feed. That's pretty obvious. If it was a fun post, it would've been at the top, right?
If you don't trust any extension with site-reading capability, here's a simple solution: scroll down as much as you are comfortable, and then work upwards!
I specifically bought a Wi-Fi router, the Deco, to fight my addiction to Facebook, Twitter, Reddit. I probably should add this site too.
Not sure about how different the effectiveness is, but I use the Freedom app to block sites at schedules times on my desktop. I also have it on my phone, but it’s not as reliable on iPhone as it sometimes randomly deactivates.
I would recommend using https://old.reddit.com/ and not going past the first page :)
You might enjoy the book Digital Minimalism by Cal Newport. It's helped me figure out how control the apps, instead of them controlling me.
What information on reddit is useful?
Devils advocate: reddit can be just as useful as HN (or more so) if you only interact with subreddits you have a deep connection to.
I used to often see niche, really interesting stuff on there, although I haven't used it much lately. The Frontpage is pure garbage though.
I used to often see niche, really interesting stuff on there, although I haven't used it much lately. The Frontpage is pure garbage though.
Ah, yes, the No True Subreddit fallacy.
No need for infernal advocacy here. Reddit is to some extent the unfortunate heir of newsgroups, as well as many independent forums, so of course there is going to be a lot of interesting and useful information on it.
The thing I imagine that gives some people such a negative view is coming in contact through the brand "reddit" and being dumped into large controversial sub-reddits straight away.
A lot of people bump into a particular sub-reddit through a search result and have no idea of the dumpster fires elsewhere on the larger "reddit" site.
The thing I imagine that gives some people such a negative view is coming in contact through the brand "reddit" and being dumped into large controversial sub-reddits straight away.
A lot of people bump into a particular sub-reddit through a search result and have no idea of the dumpster fires elsewhere on the larger "reddit" site.
Its helpful to get kind of organic opinions on things. See what people are saying if your shopping for something new. Its comes up in google searches a lot. At least there's no seo gaming on a reddit link.
Ive had some ok experiences on reddit too, meet ups, bought stuff, got free concert tickets once too. its hard to write the whole thing off. That might be a different era of reddit though. Its been a few years since I had something like that happen now that i think about it
Ive had some ok experiences on reddit too, meet ups, bought stuff, got free concert tickets once too. its hard to write the whole thing off. That might be a different era of reddit though. Its been a few years since I had something like that happen now that i think about it
Or Facebook. I use Twitter for doomscrolling, at least it has real time info. Facebook has been utterly useless for years now.
I have taken 3 photography related courses that all have private groups on FB. I don't use FB in any other capacity but the value of those groups is probably among the highest ROIs on the internet for me (hobby wise at least).
Is the Facebook algorithm, social graph, or anything else that is unique to Facebook coming into play in those private groups?
Yes-ish. Not that facebook is providing anything from their side but the adoption rate of the non-technical participants is sky-high. much higher than what i have seen with private forums.
I can only speculate but my guess is that all the participants are already actively using facebook and hence don't have any reasons not to join and use the private groups. Notifications are dealt with quickly because of the already implemented workflow from their side.
/r/rust
Pick a programming language or piece of popular tech, chances are good it has a subReddit of discussions and links to blog posts and announcements, sometimes with some of the creator/maintainer people posting.
Pick a programming language or piece of popular tech, chances are good it has a subReddit of discussions and links to blog posts and announcements, sometimes with some of the creator/maintainer people posting.
I can't lay hands on a link, but there was an article about the psychological phenomenon of time passing too quickly. It was a measurable state you could detect a brain as either being in or not in.
One of the most reliable ways to reset internal time perception? Experiencing nature.
I try and take more walks now.
One of the most reliable ways to reset internal time perception? Experiencing nature.
I try and take more walks now.
Perhaps https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24209297
Effect of Exercise-Related Factors on the Perception of Time (frontiersin.org) 65 points, 9 days ago | 9 comments
Effect of Exercise-Related Factors on the Perception of Time (frontiersin.org) 65 points, 9 days ago | 9 comments
I think I found that paper. Posted in a reply below.
By reset, you mean the effect lasts after the nature time ends?
Because if not, while walks are nice, my goal isn't exactly to have twice as long of a subjective experience but 60% of it is parks.
Because if not, while walks are nice, my goal isn't exactly to have twice as long of a subjective experience but 60% of it is parks.
Yes. The gist was that your brain gets caught in a loop in which your perception of time was continuously skewed, leading to a constant feeling of hurrying / lacking enough time.
Spending time in nature essentially jumped your brain out of the loop, even after you returned from nature.
Think it might have been a summary of this: "Awe Expands People’s Perception of Time, Alters Decision Making, and Enhances Well-Being" (2012)
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2083257
Spending time in nature essentially jumped your brain out of the loop, even after you returned from nature.
Think it might have been a summary of this: "Awe Expands People’s Perception of Time, Alters Decision Making, and Enhances Well-Being" (2012)
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2083257
"All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone.” - Blaise Pascal, 1654 AD.
This is not a new problem, we are just experiencing a hyper version of it. Social media, the world's knowledge at your finger tips, is distraction on steroids.
This is not a new problem, we are just experiencing a hyper version of it. Social media, the world's knowledge at your finger tips, is distraction on steroids.
I’m an avid screentime user. I never run out of new ideas.
Often my surfing feeds my ideas. My latest creation is derived from downloading Reddit to my brain on the regular.
Boredom is a great stimulus. It’s not a pre-requisite.
Often my surfing feeds my ideas. My latest creation is derived from downloading Reddit to my brain on the regular.
Boredom is a great stimulus. It’s not a pre-requisite.
I’m afraid of boredom because I’m not loved. When we had no phone addiction, other people were talking more too. If I get my dose of speech/interaction during the day, I could quit twitter anytime. But since I regularly don’t get it, especially as a programmer where written chat is the norm as an ersatz of human interaction, then I compulsively need to read and write information and watch (*gobble) videos, and generally fall asleep to the sound of a video talking to me.
With enough human interaction and love, I come back to being an avid reader, consume little addictive networks, and don’t mind boredom.
With enough human interaction and love, I come back to being an avid reader, consume little addictive networks, and don’t mind boredom.
This happened to me as I got older. Now I MUST have something like Seinfeld on to fall asleep. I cannot fall asleep in silence and darkness alone - the angst takes over. Also the accupressure mat is a life saver.
I have enough ideas.
Generating endless ideas is how my brain fights off boredom. Bringing those ideas to life is a different story. The brain is too busy generating new ideas.
I see a strong network effect here.
Once all of your friends are hooked on their phone, it becomes very lonely to be the only one that doesn't stare at a screen. But what people naturally yearn for is not to get bored alone, but to get bored as a group. So the "quality of bored-ness" goes down as screen usage expands.
Once all of your friends are hooked on their phone, it becomes very lonely to be the only one that doesn't stare at a screen. But what people naturally yearn for is not to get bored alone, but to get bored as a group. So the "quality of bored-ness" goes down as screen usage expands.
> But this is exactly what we did before. We got bored, we were wasting time, we were experimenting, and that's how great ideas came around.
Yep! I firmly believe that boredom is not just healthy, but a necessary part of life. Your mind needs downtime and your creativity and imagination need mind-numbing boredom.
Yep! I firmly believe that boredom is not just healthy, but a necessary part of life. Your mind needs downtime and your creativity and imagination need mind-numbing boredom.
There was a good thread on HN a couple of weeks back concerning the benefits of idleness: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24128366
Very well put.
Even among people trying to be productive you sometimes see vortexes of distraction, for instance around note-taking. I like note taking (apps and paper) but I think there is such thing as an over-reliance on them. They promote collecting over being. Perhaps also they stop people from completing their own ideas. One becomes Penelope, weaving the burial shroud of a thought forever.
Note taking can be pernicious because it feels like doing something but it also gives an excuse to not put forth your own thoughts until you have all the pieces. Then they become so large they are unweildy. The more notes, the less supple.
Note taking can be pernicious because it feels like doing something but it also gives an excuse to not put forth your own thoughts until you have all the pieces. Then they become so large they are unweildy. The more notes, the less supple.
It's ironic because the same tools can be used to empower your thinking[0]. Instead of collecting notes, note taking utilities can be used as a sort of L2 cache when you're trying to think something through. E.g. most of my problem solving involves repeated sessions with a text file, in which I dump my stream of thought and refine it. Sometimes it means literally talking with myself via a text file, sometimes it's constructing an artifact (like a prioritized list of things to do). Same tool, slightly different approach.
--
[0] - Or damage your brain. The fact that I can't think things through unless I'm writing thoughts down or drawing diagrams may be a sign of improved quality of thoughts, or a sign of me no longer being able to think without a crutch.
--
[0] - Or damage your brain. The fact that I can't think things through unless I'm writing thoughts down or drawing diagrams may be a sign of improved quality of thoughts, or a sign of me no longer being able to think without a crutch.
I think your [0] note points to a hard truth of life. You have to be aware of how you're used to thinking so you can challenge yourself to make your brain work in new ways. I don't think this is by any means essential but I think it can be immensely useful to not always default to the same habit. 80% of the time, it's ok to exploit what you know, but maybe that remaining 20% of the time try thinking in a new way. The hard part is finding those new ways and not being too lazy or rushed to skip it.
"The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Pen and Paper in the Process of Thinking"
reMarkable 2, nickname L2 cache
I realized recently after many years puttering around online that I frequently couldn't name anything I had just read over the last four hours.
I haven't taken full control of myself back yet, but that thought was a strong wake-up call to me.
I haven't taken full control of myself back yet, but that thought was a strong wake-up call to me.
Exactly.
This happens to me so often. I put my phone back and then ask myself: “what did I just read / watched?”
Most of the time I don’t remember.
What have you been doing to fight against it?
I have the opposite experience. I can recall discussions I've read months or years ago. In aggregate, it added a bit of depth to my perception of the world. They gave me a lot more vocabulary to process the world around me, as do good books.
> I think the most dangerous distractions are the ones that feel productive but don’t actually work toward your goals. For example, browsing hacker news.
Time to set up my emacs config to manage my life and stop wasting time.
Time to set up my emacs config to manage my life and stop wasting time.
Yes, and time for me to finally start my webcomic, but first I need to build myself a webcomic framework...
No no we use webcomic framework factories now. That's much more webscale.
I find browsing hackernews to be one of the more beneficial activities I can do for 5-20 minutes as a break between more mentally taxing activities. Meditation, going for a walk, getting a snack or a drink, and a quick chat with a friend are other activities I consider both beneficial and short duration.
Yep, I rarely think of HN reading time as wasted afterwards.
Perhaps you haven't spent an absurd amount of time on HN
But I had, and I can tell from experience, it's the one Internet activity where I find it hard to determine its net value.
With anything else - TV shows, Reddit, Facebook, browsing memes - I can tell the marginal value becomes negative very quickly (after satiating the basic need to relax/unwind). So it makes sense to spend some, but only a little time on this.
But with HN... it feels like the above, except every other week I'll find some thought that will improve my understanding of the world. Every other month I'll find a tool that solves a problem or improves something in the projects I'm working on. Every couple years I hit something that essentially alters the course of my career. And around people I work with, I'm known to be the guy that, when told a problem, half of the time will point out a solution mentioned in some HN comment a year earlier (thank $deity for Algolia making finding it again easier).
So bottomline, I suspect the total net value of HN for me, after accounting for opportunity costs, is actually slightly positive. At least the procrastinator in me keeps saying that, conveniently omitting the confidence interval, which is absurdly wide.
With anything else - TV shows, Reddit, Facebook, browsing memes - I can tell the marginal value becomes negative very quickly (after satiating the basic need to relax/unwind). So it makes sense to spend some, but only a little time on this.
But with HN... it feels like the above, except every other week I'll find some thought that will improve my understanding of the world. Every other month I'll find a tool that solves a problem or improves something in the projects I'm working on. Every couple years I hit something that essentially alters the course of my career. And around people I work with, I'm known to be the guy that, when told a problem, half of the time will point out a solution mentioned in some HN comment a year earlier (thank $deity for Algolia making finding it again easier).
So bottomline, I suspect the total net value of HN for me, after accounting for opportunity costs, is actually slightly positive. At least the procrastinator in me keeps saying that, conveniently omitting the confidence interval, which is absurdly wide.
Yeah, I agree that 5-20 minutes is purely beneficial, but it can be more addictive than that.
I have the complete opposite feeling. As long as you filter yourself fairly well on which topics you read, HN can be immensely useful. You can learn about new things that can help you a lot in your career, that you otherwise may have missed.
But usually you missed them for a reason. They just aren’t directly relevant to you.
... but I made a technical decision because of an idea on hacker news.
You should have researched that decision outside of hacker news. Less aggregate time spent.
... but I made a technical decision because of an idea on hacker news.
You should have researched that decision outside of hacker news. Less aggregate time spent.
[deleted]
There is a lot that I know which was relevant but is not anymore. A large percentage of knowledge needs constant replacing and often I do not know with what until I‘m exposed. HN gives me exposure. It is part of my solution to staying on top of developments. It does not provide answers to questions I have but to questions I should have had.
Excellent way to phrase it. For lock of a better way of saying it, you don't know what you don't know. You can become comfortable with certain things, but the pace at which stuff moves in this industry makes you stale if you don't at least look at the trends every few months or so. you could always be in the camp that says you should look at new trends, but I'm of the complete opposite viewpoint. Some of these new trends which people love to hate ended up working really well in production for me, and being on HN gave me the exposure I needed to them. It also gives you people that have used these technologies in production, and have opinions on them that might be helpful.
Of course I researched the decision outside of HN. But just the superficial exposure you have to so many different things that you wouldn't have by just browsing around is invaluable. And just by hearing something like a name can take you on a tangent that can be very fruitful.
Case in point: I'm very familiar with Kafka, and the discussions on here usually lead to hinting about new technologies that you may not hear of just by reading a Kafka threat. Things like NATS, Jetstream, liftbridge, pulsar, and the list goes on. Having that kind of exposure just knowing that alternatives are out there, and people having real-world experience with them is really useful.
Case in point: I'm very familiar with Kafka, and the discussions on here usually lead to hinting about new technologies that you may not hear of just by reading a Kafka threat. Things like NATS, Jetstream, liftbridge, pulsar, and the list goes on. Having that kind of exposure just knowing that alternatives are out there, and people having real-world experience with them is really useful.
Yeah, I read about a fintech api recently due to hn. It can be useful.
I like to think that gamification will help my kids get "addicted" to useful things like maths homework or exercise.
I worry it is just teaching them to get gamified...
But the idea is nice - banks that enforce aging and budgets, shops that put fresh produce at the checkouts and never sell chocolate bars...
I worry it is just teaching them to get gamified...
But the idea is nice - banks that enforce aging and budgets, shops that put fresh produce at the checkouts and never sell chocolate bars...
The gamification of Duolingo is something that has really worked for me (as an adult). It has all the parts of an addictive mobile game that keep you coming back: a streak that notifies you if you're in danger of losing it (this is the one that really works for me), social rankings, fun graphics, in game currency. I have a 410 day Spanish streak as of this morning!
I took French in middle/high school with the standard lecture/hw school structure and was a lot less successful than I've been with Duolingo. Duolingo alone probably isn't enough to really learn a language but combined with other resources it provides a great structure to keep you committed and provides a great foundation to build from.
I took French in middle/high school with the standard lecture/hw school structure and was a lot less successful than I've been with Duolingo. Duolingo alone probably isn't enough to really learn a language but combined with other resources it provides a great structure to keep you committed and provides a great foundation to build from.
As a language learner (working on my 8th right now), I dabble in Duolingo from time to time and agree that it provides contact time with the language, and any contact time helps reinforce memory.
Language learning in general though, I have found, is not that amenable to gamification. Some learning methods may be more efficient than others, but even with the most efficient methods, real language learning is still inherently and unavoidably a slog. So if you come across a method that makes it "easy", chances are it's not actually working. It's too easy to trick oneself to think that one is making progress, and then find oneself unable to communicate when called upon to do so.
In the polyglot (ie actual practitioners of extreme language learning) community, there are many super talented language learners but a common pattern among them is the use of surprising traditional learning methods. Most do not use Duolingo but instead elect to do things the hard way, by actually going through workbooks, talking to tutors on iTalki, making mistakes, exposing themselves to media, translating, etc. Space repetition tools are sometimes used. Pimsleur is good for speaking, but not reading/writing so it doesn't get used that much.
There are clips of YouTubers where creators show you how to learned a language to a conversational level in 24 hours etc. but if you look more closely, the experiments are highly edited and the actual outcome is not that great.
I've resigned myself to the fact that the way to actually to learn a language is to jump in and do it the hard way, rather than through easier shortcuts. Language learning is about creating new reflexes and creating new pathways int he brain and there's no easy way to do that (the brain itself resists) without discomfort.
That said, tools like Duolingo do create fun and interest in a language -- and fun is needed to sustain oneself through the journey.
Language learning in general though, I have found, is not that amenable to gamification. Some learning methods may be more efficient than others, but even with the most efficient methods, real language learning is still inherently and unavoidably a slog. So if you come across a method that makes it "easy", chances are it's not actually working. It's too easy to trick oneself to think that one is making progress, and then find oneself unable to communicate when called upon to do so.
In the polyglot (ie actual practitioners of extreme language learning) community, there are many super talented language learners but a common pattern among them is the use of surprising traditional learning methods. Most do not use Duolingo but instead elect to do things the hard way, by actually going through workbooks, talking to tutors on iTalki, making mistakes, exposing themselves to media, translating, etc. Space repetition tools are sometimes used. Pimsleur is good for speaking, but not reading/writing so it doesn't get used that much.
There are clips of YouTubers where creators show you how to learned a language to a conversational level in 24 hours etc. but if you look more closely, the experiments are highly edited and the actual outcome is not that great.
I've resigned myself to the fact that the way to actually to learn a language is to jump in and do it the hard way, rather than through easier shortcuts. Language learning is about creating new reflexes and creating new pathways int he brain and there's no easy way to do that (the brain itself resists) without discomfort.
That said, tools like Duolingo do create fun and interest in a language -- and fun is needed to sustain oneself through the journey.
> Language learning in general though, I have found, is not that amenable to gamification. Some learning methods may be more efficient than others, but even with the most efficient methods, real language learning is still inherently and unavoidably a slog. So if you come across a method that makes it "easy", chances are it's not actually working
Go to a foreign country and try to get laid. Genuine intrinsic motivation, and the difficulty increases with age. If nothing else, this education is good preparation for a career in business
Go to a foreign country and try to get laid. Genuine intrinsic motivation, and the difficulty increases with age. If nothing else, this education is good preparation for a career in business
Heh, that's the usual advice. However if you ask certain polyglots, they will tell you that as a general rule (exceptions exist), being in a foreign country or having a romantic partner aren't necessary or sufficient conditions, and in fact can work against language learning.
How so?
Using a romantic partner as a language-learning partner gets old for said person after a while, especially if you're not actively making progress on the language on the side. Unless said romantic partner is a language teacher, it can be annoying for them to constantly be correcting your mistakes. Over time, this annoyance can actually harm the relationship. Also most native speakers of a language aren't always good teachers -- they may know how to use the language but usually can't explain how things work. It's better to get a tutor whose job is to instruct, bear with your mistakes, and go home after. It's easier to for someone to bear with your mistakes if they don't have to spend all their free time with you.
As for language immersion by living in a country, you'd be surprised how that doesn't really work unless you're actively learning on your own or taking classes. Case in point: I lived in a French-speaking province for 4 years but can barely speak French -- I just never bothered learning. You'd think necessity would force one to learn but there are so many ways to get around actually doing it (e.g. hanging out with expats, using gestures/hand signs, Google Translate, etc.) On the other hand, there are folks who've never been in a Francophone country who can speak French at a high level, often through active learning. In fact, many polyglots often become fluent in a language without ever setting foot in the language's country of origin.
The key really is putting in the work. Getting laid in a foreign country may help kickstart the process, but to achieve working fluency, there are no real shortcuts.
(well, there is one, which is that you already know a related language. This is the only major accelerant. You can learn Afrikaans very quickly if you speak Dutch. Similarly for Malay -> Indonesian, Portuguese -> Spanish ... interestingly, this pair is asymmetric: Spanish -> Portuguese is harder than vice-versa)
How so?
Using a romantic partner as a language-learning partner gets old for said person after a while, especially if you're not actively making progress on the language on the side. Unless said romantic partner is a language teacher, it can be annoying for them to constantly be correcting your mistakes. Over time, this annoyance can actually harm the relationship. Also most native speakers of a language aren't always good teachers -- they may know how to use the language but usually can't explain how things work. It's better to get a tutor whose job is to instruct, bear with your mistakes, and go home after. It's easier to for someone to bear with your mistakes if they don't have to spend all their free time with you.
As for language immersion by living in a country, you'd be surprised how that doesn't really work unless you're actively learning on your own or taking classes. Case in point: I lived in a French-speaking province for 4 years but can barely speak French -- I just never bothered learning. You'd think necessity would force one to learn but there are so many ways to get around actually doing it (e.g. hanging out with expats, using gestures/hand signs, Google Translate, etc.) On the other hand, there are folks who've never been in a Francophone country who can speak French at a high level, often through active learning. In fact, many polyglots often become fluent in a language without ever setting foot in the language's country of origin.
The key really is putting in the work. Getting laid in a foreign country may help kickstart the process, but to achieve working fluency, there are no real shortcuts.
(well, there is one, which is that you already know a related language. This is the only major accelerant. You can learn Afrikaans very quickly if you speak Dutch. Similarly for Malay -> Indonesian, Portuguese -> Spanish ... interestingly, this pair is asymmetric: Spanish -> Portuguese is harder than vice-versa)
Interesting, I think I largely agree. However, I think the polyglot community is probably not a great representation of what would work for most people. For a lot of people, myself included, I think the choice is realistically between lower commitment (and lower quality/speed of learning) options and nothing at all. At least for myself it would take a lot of motivation to consistently do workbooks for years, major props to the people who can though.
That’s a fair point. Good luck!
I believe his point is not that gamification doesn't work for learning, but rather that it has a nasty side effect of training your brain to be more susceptible to addiction/gamification everywhere, even where you don't want it.
I understand that and definitely a valid point especially for kids. I'm just making the point that in some situations there can be real benefits of using gamification. Like most things balance is important.
Duolingo is great as a beginning to language study but that’s all there is to it. If you have a 410 day Spanish streak it’s time to start reading Spanish children’s books or watching telenovelas or Narcos, anything but continuing with Duolingo.
Yeah I agree (sorry I edited the original post to essentially say this while you wrote the comment). I also took a semester of Spanish in college and Duolingo let me (barely) place into the second level class. I've also been watching Spanish media (Telemundo, Casa de Papel, Pasion de Gavilanes) and just started a Spanish meetup group to practice speaking.
What Duolingo has been best for is getting a baseline vocab and familiarity with the language. It also lets you stay fresh/keep making progress when you don't have time or mental effort to spend more than a few minutes a day.
What Duolingo has been best for is getting a baseline vocab and familiarity with the language. It also lets you stay fresh/keep making progress when you don't have time or mental effort to spend more than a few minutes a day.
Duolingo takes you 10 minutes a day. If it's the only thing you're doing, I agree it's not sufficient, but I disagree with stopping doing it - it has mechanisms to reinforce what you learned.
But what you’ve learned isn’t all that valuable from a language perspective. It doesn’t matter how well is reinforcing lessons of those lessons weren’t very valuable in the first place.
I have been on a streak for weeks, usually in the top 10 of that week's tournament, yet I am actually making no real progress in actually learning the language. Nothing is really going to beat rote memorization and full immersion I feel.
This isn't as big of a problem for latin based languages (English native) however.
This isn't as big of a problem for latin based languages (English native) however.
Perfect illustration of GP point: you played for 410 days, yet you only learned the content of what is probably only a few hours of focused learning.
I’ve tested Duolinguo for languages I want to learn, for some I already know and a language BA/MA holder I can guarantee that Duolingo is total crap. This is just a feel good app. Just like another post was mentioning hiw note taking can do more harm than good because it feels like work, Duolingo is given the user the feeling of work and progression while very very little knowledge is gained. Let’s take Japanese as an example. Hiragana and katakana are each divided in 4 parts: a user can easily spend weeks on that and feel he’s making progress. University student on the other side learn that in a week... (for slow learners)
I’ve tested Duolinguo for languages I want to learn, for some I already know and a language BA/MA holder I can guarantee that Duolingo is total crap. This is just a feel good app. Just like another post was mentioning hiw note taking can do more harm than good because it feels like work, Duolingo is given the user the feeling of work and progression while very very little knowledge is gained. Let’s take Japanese as an example. Hiragana and katakana are each divided in 4 parts: a user can easily spend weeks on that and feel he’s making progress. University student on the other side learn that in a week... (for slow learners)
Beware of gamification. There is a great talk[1] discussing intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation as it applies to video games, with the key insight being that extrinsic rewards decrease intrinsic motivation.
The speaker references a lot of research that seems worth digging into too.
[1] https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1012290/Achievements-Considere...
[1] https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1012290/Achievements-Considere...
I would advise you to fight any addiction your kids might have, especially gaming/other internet points addictions. Gamification is a fix that people addicted to dopamine rushes need, but children shouldn't require it. Instead I would work on framing work in a positive way.
Agree! “Gamification” is just the most informed, popular form of experience design.
If we approached every challenge with “how do we design experience that builds on and supplements user motivation?” We’d leap forward as a species.
If we approached every challenge with “how do we design experience that builds on and supplements user motivation?” We’d leap forward as a species.
I don't think we should think in terms like that. We don't always have to be working toward a goal. There's nothing won't with reading, taking a nap, it sound other unproductive activities. Also, not everyone has big lofty goals of self accomplishment. For some, constant goal seeking can be both stressful and emotionally difficult when goals aren't met.
We should be careful to paint with such a broad brush.
We should be careful to paint with such a broad brush.
I don't know if internet is really the culprit to how easy it is to waste time. We have long created enough distraction to fill a entire lifespan.
Before I've encountered any digital computing device, I used to just play Sudoku during class. Or read novels; I had a textbook that carved, inside which hid a small novel. Or, just day-dream and think about stuff.
On the other hand, I enjoyed Sudoku and novels. I don't consider them to be a complete waste of time. In retrospect, they made my childhood better.
Before I've encountered any digital computing device, I used to just play Sudoku during class. Or read novels; I had a textbook that carved, inside which hid a small novel. Or, just day-dream and think about stuff.
On the other hand, I enjoyed Sudoku and novels. I don't consider them to be a complete waste of time. In retrospect, they made my childhood better.
HN, Facebook, Reddit, Messenger, YouTube, news websites and dozens of other sites are on a block list from 0900-1800 M-F via a super useful plugin for Firefox (on mobile now and I can't remember it!)
Bingo! Thanks that's the one. I saw it here on HN a few weeks back.
> It can be so easy to waste time when we have the internet.
I'm just really glad I did college when the only thing distracting on the internet was Slashdot and you could only access it with a computer attached to an ethernet cable.
I'm almost certain I would not have made it past Freshman year if I had a smartphone.
I'm just really glad I did college when the only thing distracting on the internet was Slashdot and you could only access it with a computer attached to an ethernet cable.
I'm almost certain I would not have made it past Freshman year if I had a smartphone.
> I think the most dangerous distractions are the ones that feel productive but don’t actually work toward your goals. For example, browsing hacker news.
This is why I question curiosity as the prescribed value from HN leadership. In its place one could've easily said learning or mastery.
This is why I question curiosity as the prescribed value from HN leadership. In its place one could've easily said learning or mastery.
Life recently told the meaning of 'know-how' and real life has no competitor.
I spent countless hours fiddling with git tutorials, the best branching, workflow.. Nothing was even close to when I had to actual work with it on a tight rope.
Curiosity intellect is mostly dead baggage in ones head, knowing how to apply ideas as tools, to actually do something, and even have it in mind when you work so that you know you wrote enough, commit will be long, or merge will be ugly. It all balances out on itself and you actually feel light and capable.
I spent countless hours fiddling with git tutorials, the best branching, workflow.. Nothing was even close to when I had to actual work with it on a tight rope.
Curiosity intellect is mostly dead baggage in ones head, knowing how to apply ideas as tools, to actually do something, and even have it in mind when you work so that you know you wrote enough, commit will be long, or merge will be ugly. It all balances out on itself and you actually feel light and capable.
what sort of gamification is there on HN, upvotes not much else? Maybe it's plausible to strike a deal with oneself not to look at upvotes or downvotes, I think that would make comments more sincere. It would be great to have a setting not to display upvotes and down-votes on your own comments but to still be able to respond on threads tab
Generally I'm glad that HN has minimal gamification, at least compared to the worst offenders reddit, fb, twitter etc.
Generally I'm glad that HN has minimal gamification, at least compared to the worst offenders reddit, fb, twitter etc.
> I think the most dangerous distractions are the ones that feel productive but don’t actually work toward your goals. For example, browsing hacker news.
Browsing HN has never felt productive to me. At times useful, entertaining, informative, thought-provoking, and at others less so, when it can seem annoying, repetitive, pointless and so on. But never "productive".
Browsing HN has never felt productive to me. At times useful, entertaining, informative, thought-provoking, and at others less so, when it can seem annoying, repetitive, pointless and so on. But never "productive".
> I often scroll around only to realize later that it was a massive waste of time I could’ve spent working on something I care about.
Increasing the signal to noise ratio would help reduce time spent scrolling. A “filter” by keyword feature would be massively helpful.
Increasing the signal to noise ratio would help reduce time spent scrolling. A “filter” by keyword feature would be massively helpful.
When you increase the signal to noise ratio, it makes it even harder to stop reading. For all practical purposes, the internet is infinite; no matter how high you set your standards, gradually you will find enough sources to fill all your free time.
During the last few years, I switched from reading low quality content to reading high quality content. I am better informed about various things. But the problem of spending too much time reading remains unchanged.
During the last few years, I switched from reading low quality content to reading high quality content. I am better informed about various things. But the problem of spending too much time reading remains unchanged.
Its funny because its hard to gauge – the things you think are the most productive feed strongly into your confirmation bias, so maybe they aren't really that productive after all. But that's fine.
In general though, I prefer the idea of going "all in" in whatever I'm doing. If I'm going to play video games, I'm making sure I have a damn good time doing it. If I'm going to put in work, I'm gonna make sure it gets done. Distractions will do you in in both cases. Ruin your fun time and mess up your productivity.
In general though, I prefer the idea of going "all in" in whatever I'm doing. If I'm going to play video games, I'm making sure I have a damn good time doing it. If I'm going to put in work, I'm gonna make sure it gets done. Distractions will do you in in both cases. Ruin your fun time and mess up your productivity.
I completely agree with you. Some other distractions are the many intelectual hobbies overpraised out there, two of them which I know very closely: learning languages and reading lots of books (novels).
These activities by itself don’t yell any value by themselves and still free like a super productive to the extent of feeling incredibly productive. One should not forget that intelectual hobbies are in fact still hobbies.
These activities by itself don’t yell any value by themselves and still free like a super productive to the extent of feeling incredibly productive. One should not forget that intelectual hobbies are in fact still hobbies.
The worst mistake a lot of people make is put stuff on a backlog aka procrastination. If what you want to do is worth doing then do it today.
On the other hand, why do so many highly skilled people push themselves so hard? I do not have any stats, it's just an observation looking at all the people in my environment, and then some public exponents.
I've grown up in a family where there was always enough, yet not much in excess. Most grown up people I knew in my childhood would probably complain that they would want more, yet they mostly just did their job, had enough and enjoyed their family life. That is also true for some of the people I later met at university and then in business, but I get the impression that quite a lot of them, even though they have much better jobs than the people from my childhood, invest a lot of their free time trying to pursue their goal. And it is extremely rare that I see someone actually reaching it. It is far more often that their life becomes a lot more miserable, think divorce or similar.
Now don't ge me wrong, I think pursuing ones goals can be extremely valuable. But for a lot of people, pursuing a goal and trying to be productive with it while at the same time being married, raising kids, earning money, staying healthy and doing chores is most likely not going to lead anywhere good. So why is it so hard for smart people to accept that fact, and enjoy one or two hours of lazyness every day? Why do people take Elon Musk as an example, if even he himself decribes his life as not too nice?
I've grown up in a family where there was always enough, yet not much in excess. Most grown up people I knew in my childhood would probably complain that they would want more, yet they mostly just did their job, had enough and enjoyed their family life. That is also true for some of the people I later met at university and then in business, but I get the impression that quite a lot of them, even though they have much better jobs than the people from my childhood, invest a lot of their free time trying to pursue their goal. And it is extremely rare that I see someone actually reaching it. It is far more often that their life becomes a lot more miserable, think divorce or similar.
Now don't ge me wrong, I think pursuing ones goals can be extremely valuable. But for a lot of people, pursuing a goal and trying to be productive with it while at the same time being married, raising kids, earning money, staying healthy and doing chores is most likely not going to lead anywhere good. So why is it so hard for smart people to accept that fact, and enjoy one or two hours of lazyness every day? Why do people take Elon Musk as an example, if even he himself decribes his life as not too nice?
> On the other hand, why do so many highly skilled people push themselves so hard?
In this day and age, being productive is considered a virtue.
In this day and age, being productive is considered a virtue.
Reddit was a huge time waste for me. I'd spend entire mornings and nearly all night browsing the site and arguing with other users. I wish I could get all of it back.
I worked for a big multinational bank and was reasonably comfortable but sometimes not very busy and most of the usual online distractions was blocked except for hacker news. I spent so much time reading hacker news that it was probably a big influence in me deciding to quit my job to join a bootstrapped startup as a CTO. Also probably the biggest mistake of my life. In the aftermath I ended up working as a contractor in a remote office for a tech company to recover my finances. During that time I used to spend my afternoon coffee break reading a newsletter from Matt Levine and I think that's probably one of the primary influences that made me end up working in finance again.
Why was the CTO move a mistake? The biggest mistake of your life, at that.
Watching sports and memorizing athletes’ stats is another waste of time a lot of people partake in. Here’s to hoping people are more productive during this hiatus.
Does the term action faking describe it?
I've been mentoring CS college students and new grad SWEs for a while. It's shocking to see how many of them perpetually feel like they're overwhelmed and short on time, yet they can't account for where they've actually spent their time. It's not uncommon for new grad SWEs to complain that an 8-hour work day is somehow consuming 100% of their weekday hours, leaving them without any time to do anything else. On further investigation, they're just being pulled into Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, TV, and video games for far more time than they realize. It's almost like those activities are subtracting 6+ hours out of their day without them realizing it.
Nobody likes to be told that they're wasting their free time, but I've had mild success encouraging people to use basic time tracking utilities like the Screen Time feature in iOS. It's eye-opening to watch people estimate their daily screen time around 30 minutes and then be shocked when their reports come back at 2-3 hours or more.
Of course, some amount of leisure activity is necessary throughout the day. It's important to not shame people for spending time on things they enjoy (Hacker News, video games, Reddit, Twitter), but it is important that they can be honest with themselves about how much time they're spending on those activities.
Measuring time spent in leisure activities is the only real way to start closing the feedback loop. Structured procrastination (Spending 5 timed minutes out of every 30 minutes on leisure activities, aka Pomodoro technique) is a good way to start getting a handle on this.
Nobody likes to be told that they're wasting their free time, but I've had mild success encouraging people to use basic time tracking utilities like the Screen Time feature in iOS. It's eye-opening to watch people estimate their daily screen time around 30 minutes and then be shocked when their reports come back at 2-3 hours or more.
Of course, some amount of leisure activity is necessary throughout the day. It's important to not shame people for spending time on things they enjoy (Hacker News, video games, Reddit, Twitter), but it is important that they can be honest with themselves about how much time they're spending on those activities.
Measuring time spent in leisure activities is the only real way to start closing the feedback loop. Structured procrastination (Spending 5 timed minutes out of every 30 minutes on leisure activities, aka Pomodoro technique) is a good way to start getting a handle on this.
While some of what you are writing is probably true, a work day (especially pre-COVID), really takes up a lot more than 8hrs. If you live in a city and want to live somewhere affordable, you're often looking at 1hr+ of commute each way. You have to get up a little early to prep for the day. Some jobs don't count a lunch break towards your 8hr day, or expect you to stay later, so you end up working more like 9hrs. If you factor in ~30-60mins chores that you do after work such as cooking/cleaning its easy to take up ~10-12hrs doing _work type_ stuff.
So, if you're getting a full 8hrs sleep, how much time does that leave you on an avg work night to do things that _you_ want to do? Like 4hrs? And do you really want to spend all those 4hrs being productive? People need to relax and unwind at some point. If you follow the pomodoro technique and use 5min for leisure every 30 mins, you end up with only ~40mins of "leisure" in that type of day.
What if you want to do things like spend an hour working out at the gym / looking after physical health? What if you are single and want to spend some time dating? It quickly drains away at any time you would have to spend on your own personal projects, interests, hobbies.
So, if you're getting a full 8hrs sleep, how much time does that leave you on an avg work night to do things that _you_ want to do? Like 4hrs? And do you really want to spend all those 4hrs being productive? People need to relax and unwind at some point. If you follow the pomodoro technique and use 5min for leisure every 30 mins, you end up with only ~40mins of "leisure" in that type of day.
What if you want to do things like spend an hour working out at the gym / looking after physical health? What if you are single and want to spend some time dating? It quickly drains away at any time you would have to spend on your own personal projects, interests, hobbies.
> If you live in a city and want to live somewhere affordable, you're often looking at 1hr+ of commute each way.
Reading your comment and others beneath you, I sense many of you have a weird idea of what a city is.
What you describe is true only for a minority of cities. I live in a city with above median housing prices. I live a 10 minute drive from my work. My house is not expensive - in fact, the expensive neighborhoods are farther away.
Initially you may not have much of a choice on where you work, but if you go through your whole career not having that choice, you probably need to work on your career a bit. For everyone I know, they decided to make that compromise (don't want to leave awesome city, etc). For them, not having enough time in the day definitely is a choice.
I agree with the rest of your accounting, but will note that there are weekends. As for gym, I just figured out exercises I can do at home with minimal equipment. It's a lot more flexible (and takes less time) than going to a gym.
Reading your comment and others beneath you, I sense many of you have a weird idea of what a city is.
What you describe is true only for a minority of cities. I live in a city with above median housing prices. I live a 10 minute drive from my work. My house is not expensive - in fact, the expensive neighborhoods are farther away.
Initially you may not have much of a choice on where you work, but if you go through your whole career not having that choice, you probably need to work on your career a bit. For everyone I know, they decided to make that compromise (don't want to leave awesome city, etc). For them, not having enough time in the day definitely is a choice.
I agree with the rest of your accounting, but will note that there are weekends. As for gym, I just figured out exercises I can do at home with minimal equipment. It's a lot more flexible (and takes less time) than going to a gym.
You might be the one with a weird idea of what a city is. I'd wager most people think of something like the top 20 metropolitan statistical areas by population when they hear the term. In the U.S, at least, those generally all have terrible traffic and subpar transit.
You just made my case for me. The majority of people who live in cities in the US are not in the top 20 metropolitan areas, I think the majority will disagree with your idea of a city. Every city I've lived in was not in the top 20.
And frankly, even looking at some of the top 20 areas, some of them have pretty decent traffic. I know people who live in Phoenix (ranked 10th) whose commute is definitely under half an hour one way. And they live in nice areas.
Houston: Some of the major employers are in a crappy part of town. Very easy to find houses nearby, but few do so because they don't like the neighborhood. Still, the long commute is an active choice and not about affordability.
Take Manhattan. I got a call from a well known company to work there. I said "No way. Expensive and long commutes." The recruiter explained: No - just live in New Jersey. If you get the right neighborhood, the commute to work by public transit will be 30-40 minutes. I checked - he was right. Those New Jersey neighborhoods were decent ones, and the houses were about the same price as mine.
I haven't checked Chicago recently, but 10-15 years ago, you could easily find houses near enough the L-train such that your commute to downtown would be about 30 minutes.
And frankly, even looking at some of the top 20 areas, some of them have pretty decent traffic. I know people who live in Phoenix (ranked 10th) whose commute is definitely under half an hour one way. And they live in nice areas.
Houston: Some of the major employers are in a crappy part of town. Very easy to find houses nearby, but few do so because they don't like the neighborhood. Still, the long commute is an active choice and not about affordability.
Take Manhattan. I got a call from a well known company to work there. I said "No way. Expensive and long commutes." The recruiter explained: No - just live in New Jersey. If you get the right neighborhood, the commute to work by public transit will be 30-40 minutes. I checked - he was right. Those New Jersey neighborhoods were decent ones, and the houses were about the same price as mine.
I haven't checked Chicago recently, but 10-15 years ago, you could easily find houses near enough the L-train such that your commute to downtown would be about 30 minutes.
It's always amusing to me how stubborn and pedantic HN commenters are over basic things. I can't help but play the game this once. I don't doubt that plenty of people share your view and plenty will share mine. We're discussing a subjective interpretation after all. But to come in like you did and try to claim that our totally standard view of what a city is is "weird" is just so absurd.
>If you get the right neighborhood, the commute to work by public transit will be 30-40 minutes.
Okay, so one of your idealized cases and it's still closer to the "1 hour by public transit" scenario than "10 minutes by driving" you originally chose. But you know people in Phoenix so case closed.
>The majority of people who live in cities in the US are not in the top 20 metropolitan areas
I'm curious where you get this, too. The top 5 MSAs already cover 25% of the population.
>If you get the right neighborhood, the commute to work by public transit will be 30-40 minutes.
Okay, so one of your idealized cases and it's still closer to the "1 hour by public transit" scenario than "10 minutes by driving" you originally chose. But you know people in Phoenix so case closed.
>The majority of people who live in cities in the US are not in the top 20 metropolitan areas
I'm curious where you get this, too. The top 5 MSAs already cover 25% of the population.
> I don't doubt that plenty of people share your view and plenty will share mine.
Your statement is true. And it's also true when we switch the pronouns. What's your point?
"Plenty" is not the same as "majority", which was your original claim.
> Okay, so one of your idealized cases and it's still closer
How is it one of my "idealized" cases? Putting words in my mouth isn't going to help this conversation.
> to the "1 hour by public transit" scenario than "10 minutes by driving" you originally chose.
1. I never claimed you will always find affordable houses within 10 minutes drive. I was countering the claim that it need be an hour or more. That it took 40 minutes is still in support of my claim. That it took more than 10 minutes doesn't refute my point.
2. It was fairly clear from my original comment that the point was one can move to a city where you can find sub-hour commutes. From that it's clear that I am not implying you'll find it with every employer or in every city. The whole comment was about choosing where you work.
> I'm curious where you get this, too. The top 5 MSAs already cover 25% of the population.
Simple: Look up a list of metro areas in the US. Add up the top 20. Then add up the rest.
Hint: A city of 100K is still a city. Trying to claim that this is a minority position will again get the same response: Given that most people who live in 100K (or even smaller) cities believe they live in a city, it would be incorrect to claim that the majority do not view such places as cities. There may far fewer employers for engineering in such cities, but I can assure you there are still plenty.
(And no, you don't need to go as low as 100K to get a cumulative greater than your top 20).
Your statement was:
> I'd wager most people think of something like the top 20 metropolitan statistical areas by population when they hear the term.
Baltimore is not in the top 20. Nor is San Antonio. Nor is Portland. Nor is Milwaukee. The list goes on and on. Do you think these people do not think of their own cities when using the word?
Your statement is true. And it's also true when we switch the pronouns. What's your point?
"Plenty" is not the same as "majority", which was your original claim.
> Okay, so one of your idealized cases and it's still closer
How is it one of my "idealized" cases? Putting words in my mouth isn't going to help this conversation.
> to the "1 hour by public transit" scenario than "10 minutes by driving" you originally chose.
1. I never claimed you will always find affordable houses within 10 minutes drive. I was countering the claim that it need be an hour or more. That it took 40 minutes is still in support of my claim. That it took more than 10 minutes doesn't refute my point.
2. It was fairly clear from my original comment that the point was one can move to a city where you can find sub-hour commutes. From that it's clear that I am not implying you'll find it with every employer or in every city. The whole comment was about choosing where you work.
> I'm curious where you get this, too. The top 5 MSAs already cover 25% of the population.
Simple: Look up a list of metro areas in the US. Add up the top 20. Then add up the rest.
Hint: A city of 100K is still a city. Trying to claim that this is a minority position will again get the same response: Given that most people who live in 100K (or even smaller) cities believe they live in a city, it would be incorrect to claim that the majority do not view such places as cities. There may far fewer employers for engineering in such cities, but I can assure you there are still plenty.
(And no, you don't need to go as low as 100K to get a cumulative greater than your top 20).
Your statement was:
> I'd wager most people think of something like the top 20 metropolitan statistical areas by population when they hear the term.
Baltimore is not in the top 20. Nor is San Antonio. Nor is Portland. Nor is Milwaukee. The list goes on and on. Do you think these people do not think of their own cities when using the word?
Instead of the discussion being about, "Cities are different in these important respects", it's evolved into this you-said-I-said ️
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Not to mention the 8 hour work day (9-5) are your prime waking hours. It takes a lot of discipline to be productive outside of them.
I suspect this 9->5 is more 'by convention' than an actual fact?
For me, I am not that productive before lunch and have to push myself, but on the other hand I can easily be productive in the afternoon and evening.
Yea, everyone is different. The point I was trying to make is more that dedicating your prime waking hours 5 days a week to a single employer is actually a lot when you think about it.
“ If you live in a city and want to live somewhere affordable, you're often looking at 1hr+ of commute each way”
Here’s a suggestion: don’t live an hour away from work?
With more companies going permanent remote, I find the whole concept of commuting for 2 hours round trip a day unimaginable. Especially for those of us working in Tech that don’t need a physical presence to deliver results.
Here’s a suggestion: don’t live an hour away from work?
With more companies going permanent remote, I find the whole concept of commuting for 2 hours round trip a day unimaginable. Especially for those of us working in Tech that don’t need a physical presence to deliver results.
Pre-COVID that was the reality for many. But even post-COVID, certain types of commutes can actually help mentally "separate" the work time from home time. Working at home it's a lot harder to "go to work" and/or "leave work behind" when you "come home".
A friend used to say that majority of people who work from home fall into one of two types of people, the kind that never go to work or the kind that never come home.
A friend used to say that majority of people who work from home fall into one of two types of people, the kind that never go to work or the kind that never come home.
Yep it’s especially prevalent in salaried technology leadership positions. I know some colleagues work from home without too much difference in productivity and stress. Unfortunately, I am the other side of that coin because I have to constantly remind myself to be disciplined. If I am left to my own devices I will be so absorbed in the work aspect and enjoyment of little wins that I won’t leave enough mental bandwidth for my personal relationships. I prefer the office to work from home assuming the hours are flexible. The location change is very key to my ability to mentally and emotionally disconnect from work.
Tell that to the voters who decided to put in Yet Another Lane on the highway instead of building housing closer to jobs. I'm going to wind up being remote for a year, and my job still refuses to let us work remotely permanently.
So sorry, it's not that simple.
So sorry, it's not that simple.
do you mind sharing what type of job? is it tech? are you a programmer? asking because not everyone on HN is a programmer.
This is not the reality for many out there. Some people can't simply "not live an hour away from work". Rent costs are extremely high in the cities.
> If you live in a city and want to live somewhere affordable, you're often looking at 1hr+ of commute each way. You have to get up a little early to prep for the day. Some jobs don't count a lunch break towards your 8hr day, or expect you to stay later, so you end up working more like 9hrs. If you factor in ~30-60mins chores that you do after work such as cooking/cleaning its easy to take up ~10-12hrs doing _work type_ stuff.
I thought the same thing, until I focused on tightening up my schedule and making active choices to minimize wasted time.
If you want to live somewhere that requires 2 hours (!!) of commuting each day, take long lunch breaks away from the office, have relaxed mornings with hours between alarm going off and leaving the house, that's fine.
However, you have to recognize where you're making personal choices. You don't have to choose a job and house combination that requires an hour long commute each way. You don't have to leave the office for lunch every day. You don't have to have leisurely mornings. It's perfectly fine if you choose to do those things, but you're not being completely honest with yourself if you start portraying those personal choices as completely out of your control.
> And do you really want to spend all those 4hrs being productive?
It's not about being productive all day every day. You can spend those 4 hours watching TV if you want, or you can spend those 4 hours going to dinner with friends, or going to the gym. It's your choice.
> If you follow the pomodoro technique and use 5min for leisure every 30 mins, you end up with only ~40mins of "leisure" in that type of day.
The Pomodoro technique is for work time. You shouldn't be Pomodoring you personal time after work.
> What if you want to do things like spend an hour working out at the gym / looking after physical health?
Make a priority and make it happen.
If you spend 1 hour at the gym 3 times per week, that's less than 3% of your waking hours. Surely you can find 3% slack in your schedule somewhere?
> It quickly drains away at any time you would have to spend on your own personal projects, interests, hobbies.
The idea of "side projects" has become a major problem for many new grads growing up the internet era. For some reason, many of them feel obligated to be working on side projects when they're not working. They basically end up with two jobs, a day job and tending to their side projects, and then they wonder where all of their time has gone.
The solution is simple: Don't do side projects if you would prefer to spend your time on something else.
It's all about making active choices in how you spend your time. Once you go down the spiral of assuming everything is an obligation in your life, your schedule starts to feel out of your control. Start being honest about the choices you're making and what you want to do with your time and it becomes much easier to take control again.
I thought the same thing, until I focused on tightening up my schedule and making active choices to minimize wasted time.
If you want to live somewhere that requires 2 hours (!!) of commuting each day, take long lunch breaks away from the office, have relaxed mornings with hours between alarm going off and leaving the house, that's fine.
However, you have to recognize where you're making personal choices. You don't have to choose a job and house combination that requires an hour long commute each way. You don't have to leave the office for lunch every day. You don't have to have leisurely mornings. It's perfectly fine if you choose to do those things, but you're not being completely honest with yourself if you start portraying those personal choices as completely out of your control.
> And do you really want to spend all those 4hrs being productive?
It's not about being productive all day every day. You can spend those 4 hours watching TV if you want, or you can spend those 4 hours going to dinner with friends, or going to the gym. It's your choice.
> If you follow the pomodoro technique and use 5min for leisure every 30 mins, you end up with only ~40mins of "leisure" in that type of day.
The Pomodoro technique is for work time. You shouldn't be Pomodoring you personal time after work.
> What if you want to do things like spend an hour working out at the gym / looking after physical health?
Make a priority and make it happen.
If you spend 1 hour at the gym 3 times per week, that's less than 3% of your waking hours. Surely you can find 3% slack in your schedule somewhere?
> It quickly drains away at any time you would have to spend on your own personal projects, interests, hobbies.
The idea of "side projects" has become a major problem for many new grads growing up the internet era. For some reason, many of them feel obligated to be working on side projects when they're not working. They basically end up with two jobs, a day job and tending to their side projects, and then they wonder where all of their time has gone.
The solution is simple: Don't do side projects if you would prefer to spend your time on something else.
It's all about making active choices in how you spend your time. Once you go down the spiral of assuming everything is an obligation in your life, your schedule starts to feel out of your control. Start being honest about the choices you're making and what you want to do with your time and it becomes much easier to take control again.
The hour at the gym idea is just a function of poor time accounting. To get an hour at the gym you need a minimum hour and a half probably 1:45 when you account for getting dressed parking, driving and showering.
That’s true with all those things you wanted to do but didn’t realize that there is actually a hidden time sink that nearly doubles the duration.
This is actually a big reason why people don’t accomplish everything they set out to do because they didn’t budget for all the extra non value add things
That’s true with all those things you wanted to do but didn’t realize that there is actually a hidden time sink that nearly doubles the duration.
This is actually a big reason why people don’t accomplish everything they set out to do because they didn’t budget for all the extra non value add things
I’ve really liked home workouts for that reason. Much more time efficient. I prepare my breakfast during the breaks between sets.
It’s maybe not as effective as barbells, but I also hurt myself sometimes with those. My home routine hasn’t hurt me yet.
Basic equipment:
* Chinup bar above doorframe. I like the rogue jammer. You can still shut the door.
* Dip bar, for dips and rows
* Exercise bike, for sprints
Other exercises are pushups, planks, and bodyweight squats. I have a weight vest for when I need to add more to squats, but don’t need it yet. Am doing 50 squats, and they’re still hard just with bodyweight.
Also have a powerblock, but haven’t used it recently. However, it’s a great addition to a home gym, and would go well with a bench.
Cost of equipment I am using was $400 or less. Comparatively affordable, especially if it cuts a gym membership.
Time savings:
* No commute, changing
* No waiting for machines
* Can use rest breaks efficiently preparing food, a mindless task that doesn’t interfere
Will not go back to gym
It’s maybe not as effective as barbells, but I also hurt myself sometimes with those. My home routine hasn’t hurt me yet.
Basic equipment:
* Chinup bar above doorframe. I like the rogue jammer. You can still shut the door.
* Dip bar, for dips and rows
* Exercise bike, for sprints
Other exercises are pushups, planks, and bodyweight squats. I have a weight vest for when I need to add more to squats, but don’t need it yet. Am doing 50 squats, and they’re still hard just with bodyweight.
Also have a powerblock, but haven’t used it recently. However, it’s a great addition to a home gym, and would go well with a bench.
Cost of equipment I am using was $400 or less. Comparatively affordable, especially if it cuts a gym membership.
Time savings:
* No commute, changing
* No waiting for machines
* Can use rest breaks efficiently preparing food, a mindless task that doesn’t interfere
Will not go back to gym
I would suggest kettlebells to build and maintain connective tissue and add a bit of bulk. Otherwise I've found the same - I don't need a gym but I go mainly for the social aspect and heavier weights. And nifty massage devices.
Thanks, may try that again. When I tried before I had some lower back issues. This may have been the same mobility issue that gave me trouble doing squats.
What kind of connective tissues do they maintain?
What kind of connective tissues do they maintain?
For the back issue, start with lower weight or build up your "core" muscles better first before doing any other strength training. I am not a trainer, though!
Connective tissue = tendons, fascia, muscles themselves When working with machines like at many gyms, the movement is really isolated. Free weights are better since they kind of force your muscles into different directions. Kettlebells are a bit better in that regard and are more versatile and easier to use sporadically like in a home office environment.
Connective tissue = tendons, fascia, muscles themselves When working with machines like at many gyms, the movement is really isolated. Free weights are better since they kind of force your muscles into different directions. Kettlebells are a bit better in that regard and are more versatile and easier to use sporadically like in a home office environment.
> It's not uncommon for new grad SWEs to complain that an 8-hour work day is somehow consuming 100% of their weekday hours.
I don't know man, I've been struggling with this myself. Obviously it's not literally true, but the problem is that after you account for 8 hours of sleep, 8 hours of work and chores/eating/hygiene/cooking/commute, every thing you want to do starts seriously cutting into the time that's left.
Need an hour more sleep than average? Wanna do some kind of workout on regular basis? Go out with friends, on a date, see a movie? Have a serious hobby that takes 2-3 hours 2-3 times a week? If you put it on spreadsheet it will fit but it's just seriously exhausting (yeah, better hope you actually have pretty high energy levels, that also varies from person to person). There is not much slack there.
I don't know man, I've been struggling with this myself. Obviously it's not literally true, but the problem is that after you account for 8 hours of sleep, 8 hours of work and chores/eating/hygiene/cooking/commute, every thing you want to do starts seriously cutting into the time that's left.
Need an hour more sleep than average? Wanna do some kind of workout on regular basis? Go out with friends, on a date, see a movie? Have a serious hobby that takes 2-3 hours 2-3 times a week? If you put it on spreadsheet it will fit but it's just seriously exhausting (yeah, better hope you actually have pretty high energy levels, that also varies from person to person). There is not much slack there.
I hear you, but I'll tell you what I tell my mentees:
Most of it distills down to being honest about your priorities. If you value relaxed mornings, relaxed evenings, and never feeling rushed before or after work, then there's nothing wrong with that. You're not obligated to go out with friends or allocate hours to hobbies during the weekday.
The problem comes when people say they value one thing, but when decision time arrives they do something else. If you have a hobby that requires 2-3 hours per week, then you make time a few nights per week to do it. If you want to go out with friends, then you make time to go out with friends.
Going to the gym is perhaps the easiest example. If you really value going to the gym, finding one hour three times per week is only about 3% of your waking hours. Find a gym located between your house and your office and travel time falls out of the equation.
Personally, I freed up an enormous amount of time by tightening up my schedule. Learning how to get out of bed, get dressed, eat breakfast, and get out the door in under 30 minutes was a game changer for me, and it wasn't even that difficult. Likewise, learning how to consolidate my chores and meal prep into small windows of time was an enormous improvement.
If you sleep 8 hours per night, you have 112 waking hours per week. If you spend 40 hours working and have a 30-minute commute each way (5 hours commuting per week), that leaves 67 hours of your own time. Even if you allocate half of that to chores and meal prep, you're still left with 34 hours, or basically an entire work week of personal time. Realistically, you're not going to spend 33 hours on chores, though.
It's all about priorities. If you don't want to real rushed or pressured during your off time, you don't have to, but you can't have it all.
Most of it distills down to being honest about your priorities. If you value relaxed mornings, relaxed evenings, and never feeling rushed before or after work, then there's nothing wrong with that. You're not obligated to go out with friends or allocate hours to hobbies during the weekday.
The problem comes when people say they value one thing, but when decision time arrives they do something else. If you have a hobby that requires 2-3 hours per week, then you make time a few nights per week to do it. If you want to go out with friends, then you make time to go out with friends.
Going to the gym is perhaps the easiest example. If you really value going to the gym, finding one hour three times per week is only about 3% of your waking hours. Find a gym located between your house and your office and travel time falls out of the equation.
Personally, I freed up an enormous amount of time by tightening up my schedule. Learning how to get out of bed, get dressed, eat breakfast, and get out the door in under 30 minutes was a game changer for me, and it wasn't even that difficult. Likewise, learning how to consolidate my chores and meal prep into small windows of time was an enormous improvement.
If you sleep 8 hours per night, you have 112 waking hours per week. If you spend 40 hours working and have a 30-minute commute each way (5 hours commuting per week), that leaves 67 hours of your own time. Even if you allocate half of that to chores and meal prep, you're still left with 34 hours, or basically an entire work week of personal time. Realistically, you're not going to spend 33 hours on chores, though.
It's all about priorities. If you don't want to real rushed or pressured during your off time, you don't have to, but you can't have it all.
Adding to what you said, when I worked more intensely I found lots of success in freeing time by stacking, delegating, batching and subtracting:
-lots of passive pleasures can be enjoyed while commuting, shopping or dishwashing. You can read, listen, move. Some people even manage to produce (eg write novels) on the train to work.
-lots of stuff can be done by other people. Eat takeaway, have your clothes and house professionally cleaned if you don’t enjoy doing it. Is it expensive? Yes. But if you’re a high achiever you’ll get a lot more ROI out of putting the energy you’re saving by delegating into either work or more rest.
-still unnafordable to eat out every meal even if it’s a good idea? Cool once a month or once a week. Shop once a month or once a week. It’ll save you oodles of time and money. Apply to every possible chore.
-still taking too much time and energy to take care of everything in your life? Pull a Soylent. Delete entire categories of concerns. Adopt a uniform. Get brutal with time wasters.
-lots of passive pleasures can be enjoyed while commuting, shopping or dishwashing. You can read, listen, move. Some people even manage to produce (eg write novels) on the train to work.
-lots of stuff can be done by other people. Eat takeaway, have your clothes and house professionally cleaned if you don’t enjoy doing it. Is it expensive? Yes. But if you’re a high achiever you’ll get a lot more ROI out of putting the energy you’re saving by delegating into either work or more rest.
-still unnafordable to eat out every meal even if it’s a good idea? Cool once a month or once a week. Shop once a month or once a week. It’ll save you oodles of time and money. Apply to every possible chore.
-still taking too much time and energy to take care of everything in your life? Pull a Soylent. Delete entire categories of concerns. Adopt a uniform. Get brutal with time wasters.
> If you value relaxed mornings, relaxed evenings, and never feeling rushed before or after work, then there's nothing wrong with that. You're not obligated to go out with friends or allocate hours to hobbies during the weekday.
That is entirely reasonable and correct, but it's also really just saying "suck it up". Having a relaxed day vs. doing hobbies on weekdays is a hell of a dichotomy. It's a shitty choice. I think that lies at the root of your colleagues' complaints, even if they don't express it like that.
> Learning how to get out of bed, get dressed, eat breakfast, and get out the door in under 30 minutes was a game changer for me, and it wasn't even that difficult.
Yeah, I was pretty good at this. In addition to saving time, the main result was being filled with dread about the next day every time I went to sleep.
> If you don't want to real rushed or pressured during your off time, you don't have to, but you can't have it all.
I mean, I could if I just didn't have to work 8 goddamn hours 5 days/week :) It annoys me to no end that 6 hour workdays or 4 day work weeks are not more common.
That being said - I have tried and somewhat succeeded to resolve this by transitioning to freelancing. Many of the gigs will still require full time, but at least I get to have as much time as I want (or can afford) between them, and can also better control my schedule. But it's more stressful, comes with more uncertainty and if I'm for some reason unable to continue working I'm fucked.
That is entirely reasonable and correct, but it's also really just saying "suck it up". Having a relaxed day vs. doing hobbies on weekdays is a hell of a dichotomy. It's a shitty choice. I think that lies at the root of your colleagues' complaints, even if they don't express it like that.
> Learning how to get out of bed, get dressed, eat breakfast, and get out the door in under 30 minutes was a game changer for me, and it wasn't even that difficult.
Yeah, I was pretty good at this. In addition to saving time, the main result was being filled with dread about the next day every time I went to sleep.
> If you don't want to real rushed or pressured during your off time, you don't have to, but you can't have it all.
I mean, I could if I just didn't have to work 8 goddamn hours 5 days/week :) It annoys me to no end that 6 hour workdays or 4 day work weeks are not more common.
That being said - I have tried and somewhat succeeded to resolve this by transitioning to freelancing. Many of the gigs will still require full time, but at least I get to have as much time as I want (or can afford) between them, and can also better control my schedule. But it's more stressful, comes with more uncertainty and if I'm for some reason unable to continue working I'm fucked.
> That is entirely reasonable and correct, but it's also really just saying "suck it up".
You bet it is. And the sooner you realize that most of life is this way the better off you will be.
You bet it is. And the sooner you realize that most of life is this way the better off you will be.
Is this a reasonable perspective? What about the labour movements of the 19th and 20th centuries that in many cases were about balancing work with life? Adopting this perspective isn't great unless you want to accept the status quo.
> Adopting this perspective isn't great unless you want to accept the status quo
Adopting this perspective is the only way you're going to change the status quo. Change isn't created by endlessly scrolling or complaining on twitter; recognizing that you must be hardworking and focus your energy where it's most effective is a precondition to creating it.
Adopting this perspective is the only way you're going to change the status quo. Change isn't created by endlessly scrolling or complaining on twitter; recognizing that you must be hardworking and focus your energy where it's most effective is a precondition to creating it.
I mean more the perspective that we don't really have time to focus on other things in life when doing 8 hours of work a day. To me it seems like we don't have enough push-back against the status quo here - which is that 8 hours is incredibly wasteful in a lot of industries and jobs, and it's ruining our ability to think and focus throughout the week.
PragmaticPulp is making an appeal to take responsibility for your time management.
Reducing this to "suck it up" seems like a lack of listening/understanding to me.
Reducing this to "suck it up" seems like a lack of listening/understanding to me.
> Personally, I freed up an enormous amount of time by tightening up my schedule. Learning how to get out of bed, get dressed, eat breakfast, and get out the door in under 30 minutes was a game changer for me, and it wasn't even that difficult.
How do you do that? Am assuming you include a shower. It seems like there is not enough time to do all those things unless breakfast is just milk/cereal or eaten on the go. Or prepped (you allude to that)
> Likewise, learning how to consolidate my chores and meal prep into small windows of time was an enormous improvement.
Got any tips in the chore department or meal prepping?
How do you do that? Am assuming you include a shower. It seems like there is not enough time to do all those things unless breakfast is just milk/cereal or eaten on the go. Or prepped (you allude to that)
> Likewise, learning how to consolidate my chores and meal prep into small windows of time was an enormous improvement.
Got any tips in the chore department or meal prepping?
You can't improve what you don't measure. Maybe try making a list of the things you need to do in the mornings to get ready (as detailed as you want) and timing yourself might help. You can then see what you can improve. Same with chores and cooking.
It’s worth a shot. I actually do use timers though, and I’d specifically like to know how they got it down to 30 min, as that is extremely fast for that list of things. I suspect they have some tips we might apply.
But I’ll try timing breakfast etc
But I’ll try timing breakfast etc
Something that's worked well for me is trying to prolong the time each day before I get in front of a screen. Right now it's 1.30 on a Sunday and I've had a productive morning because I didn't plonk down in front of the computer after I go up and showered.
As I've become more conscious of the benefits of making that effort, it's also become a bit easier to 'break' the day's first internet surfing time. Immediately after this post I'm getting back off my ass to do some yard work.
YMMV, but it worked well for me as a focus to reduce pointless browsing hours.
As I've become more conscious of the benefits of making that effort, it's also become a bit easier to 'break' the day's first internet surfing time. Immediately after this post I'm getting back off my ass to do some yard work.
YMMV, but it worked well for me as a focus to reduce pointless browsing hours.
I was there not very long ago, and sometimes I still feel that way. But the change I made is to be strict without being restrictive, discipline with a sense of freedom. The biggest habit that has helped me is to just choose 2-3 most important things to do in the day and try to get them done as early in the day as possible. It feels so great to accomplish, and it's challenging but not unreasonable. Choose one goal and I feel like a failure and if I don't do it. Choose ten and I won't even do one. But a few good goals is the perfect balance, if I miss one but get the others I feel good. (This habit I learned from Zen to Done which also has nine othrt useful habits to slowly adopt over time)
Do you mean outside of work? Things like side project, learning, reading and so on?
Well, I do it for work and outside of work, but they are separate counts - I choose 2 MITs for my work day and 2 MITs for personal development
That’s just how life is my dude. You can’t have all the things, all the time.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/17/what-billionaire-ray-dalio-t...
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/17/what-billionaire-ray-dalio-t...
A 9 to 5 job might only be taking 50% of their waking time, but it could be consuming close to 100% of their mental capacity for the day.
There seems to be a an expectation that everyone should have a side hustle or has a creative outlet outside of work so they can get ahead or explore their true passions. But employment is structured in a way that your employer gets first dibs on your time and energy.
There seems to be a an expectation that everyone should have a side hustle or has a creative outlet outside of work so they can get ahead or explore their true passions. But employment is structured in a way that your employer gets first dibs on your time and energy.
This so much.
I'm a senior SRE in Google. I've got myself a NAS to back up my photos. Guess how many weeks it has been before I got the first terabyte of stuff onto it... Wrong, I'm still procrastinating on it :(
I'm a senior SRE in Google. I've got myself a NAS to back up my photos. Guess how many weeks it has been before I got the first terabyte of stuff onto it... Wrong, I'm still procrastinating on it :(
It is not just spending time on those sites/apps, it's the pressure society puts on them to get to the next step on the ladder. Perfect houses on Instagram. 24yo making 300K on Blind. 18yo on Youtube making 1M+. Even if you don't want to compare yourself to others, comparisons are everywhere. That adds cognitive load to the slow grind of getting started on a new job, and now 8 hours feel like 12, and at the same time the productivity trends tell them they "have not done enough today".
I think a few things aren't hammered into young people enough today.
1) Any action is greater than no action. It doesn't matter how much you suck at something. Do it. Congrats, you've beaten everyone who never started.
2) Finish things. No matter how ugly it is. Even if you have to half-kill yourself to drag it that last inch over the line. Congrats, you've beaten everyone who never finished.
3) Your worst effort is probably better than average. Stop obsessing about the 1% best. That's not who you're competing against. You're competing against the pool of real people a company / project could afford to hire, who are available to hire.
4) Everyone starts off terrible at everything. No movie covers the 10,000 hours someone is learning: that's why training montages are a cliché.
5) Forgive yourself. It's okay not to be spectacular every minute of every day. Consistency of effort is more valuable than cyclical manic-depression. The key to becoming better starts with accepting and being happy with where you're starting from.
1) Any action is greater than no action. It doesn't matter how much you suck at something. Do it. Congrats, you've beaten everyone who never started.
2) Finish things. No matter how ugly it is. Even if you have to half-kill yourself to drag it that last inch over the line. Congrats, you've beaten everyone who never finished.
3) Your worst effort is probably better than average. Stop obsessing about the 1% best. That's not who you're competing against. You're competing against the pool of real people a company / project could afford to hire, who are available to hire.
4) Everyone starts off terrible at everything. No movie covers the 10,000 hours someone is learning: that's why training montages are a cliché.
5) Forgive yourself. It's okay not to be spectacular every minute of every day. Consistency of effort is more valuable than cyclical manic-depression. The key to becoming better starts with accepting and being happy with where you're starting from.
These are all great life lessons for anyone, not just for young people. I have used all of these on myself before and I probably need to be reminded about number 5 once a month.
I'm going to print this off and frame it! So so true!
Same here. I read this before getting home and made a mental note to save the comment (also to forgive myself).
I'd include the addendum that wisdom is holding mutually-exclusive truths at once, and deciding which governs in any particular circumstance.
But I've found the previous to be right, more often than not.
Hope the inspiration helps you get out of your own way. :)
But I've found the previous to be right, more often than not.
Hope the inspiration helps you get out of your own way. :)
> Finish things. No matter how ugly it is. Even if you have to half-kill yourself to drag it that last inch over the line. Congrats, you've beaten everyone who never finished.
With the caveat that you should abandon things you've realized you don't value. I've seen far too many people spend too much time to "finish what they started" as a principle, even when they no longer valued the goal. Time is a zero sum game. All that time you spent on it is time you could have been spending on the other goals you have.
People like me have more goals than time. Gotta pick wisely.
> Any action is greater than no action. It doesn't matter how much you suck at something. Do it. Congrats, you've beaten everyone who never started.
Similar comment :-) Too many times in my life I was glad I didn't act (where all choices involving action would have led to negative consequences).
> That's not who you're competing against. You're competing against the pool of real people a company / project could afford to hire, who are available to hire.
Depends on your goals. For most of my projects, I'm competing with myself, not with others.
With the caveat that you should abandon things you've realized you don't value. I've seen far too many people spend too much time to "finish what they started" as a principle, even when they no longer valued the goal. Time is a zero sum game. All that time you spent on it is time you could have been spending on the other goals you have.
People like me have more goals than time. Gotta pick wisely.
> Any action is greater than no action. It doesn't matter how much you suck at something. Do it. Congrats, you've beaten everyone who never started.
Similar comment :-) Too many times in my life I was glad I didn't act (where all choices involving action would have led to negative consequences).
> That's not who you're competing against. You're competing against the pool of real people a company / project could afford to hire, who are available to hire.
Depends on your goals. For most of my projects, I'm competing with myself, not with others.
I considered including all the caveats you mentioned before posting, but decided the base points cover more circumstances. ;)
I think this effect is tough for anyone tuned to care what others think, and it tends to be rougher the younger you are.
There's a significant lack of guidance in WEIRD societies about how to be a person, and this is topped off by the limited maturation rituals: learning to drive, first full-time job, graduating and buying a house come to mind - but we've somehow come to a consensus that putting a giant paywall in front of them and creating dependencies between them is fine.
Putting it like that, it's no wonder that so many young people are staying home, whittling their time away on scraps of "advice" on how to get on in life.
I've come to pity people who plug such "productivity" advice online, because I feel like they must be suppressing (or missing) an idea of the Good Life: a notion of using one's actions, or speech, to contribute to the common good.
I'm hopeful newer generations in the West will have the nous to reject false idols like "productivity" or extreme wealth, but I think it's on us to expose the painful lessons learned as we're transitioning into a cyborg society.
There's a significant lack of guidance in WEIRD societies about how to be a person, and this is topped off by the limited maturation rituals: learning to drive, first full-time job, graduating and buying a house come to mind - but we've somehow come to a consensus that putting a giant paywall in front of them and creating dependencies between them is fine.
Putting it like that, it's no wonder that so many young people are staying home, whittling their time away on scraps of "advice" on how to get on in life.
I've come to pity people who plug such "productivity" advice online, because I feel like they must be suppressing (or missing) an idea of the Good Life: a notion of using one's actions, or speech, to contribute to the common good.
I'm hopeful newer generations in the West will have the nous to reject false idols like "productivity" or extreme wealth, but I think it's on us to expose the painful lessons learned as we're transitioning into a cyborg society.
As evidenced by the current state of society in the United States, the 20th century was the Century of the Self (Adam Curtis) and the downfall of community (Bowling Alone, Robert Putnam). The idea of contributing to the common good comes along rarely, and those who pursue it face an uphill battle. The system is tuned for individuality and appears to only be getting worse in my opinion. There is an “every man or woman for themselves” mentality that pervades everything. Extreme wealth is seen as the only escape from the crushing grind of modern life, and so people chase productivity to get it. This is deep, bedrock stuff, I’m not sure what can change the course.
I'm not sure either, but I am certain it's possible - not every race to the bottom is impossible to decelerate. But we must find the way to a consensus about the immeasurably powerful sorcery belief and speech imbue. Nuclear pales in comparison; the way I see it, we choose between the common good and the Good Life, or MAD.
> Even if you don't want to compare yourself to others, comparisons are everywhere.
Where you live and your social circle dictate the comparisons that are made. These are not universal - moving to another part of the country will result in fairly different standards. Some of my friends (now acquaintances?) liked to spend a lot of money at expensive restaurants, hotels, etc. It's my choice whether to spend time with them (I don't spend much). Folks who need to change their wardrobe every so many months? Not in my circle.
Life is great if you set your own standards. It's liberating. Also, I've learned that the guy who makes $1M+ on Youtube is also living a very different life - one I don't want to have. Yes, I'd love the money, but not the sacrifices.
I don't get paid as much as most SV types - but whenever I audit my life, I realize that's the only thing "missing". Almost everything in my life is the way I wanted it to be (by design). I know what I value, and I both consciously and unconsciously achieved it. More money would be awesome, but do I want to sacrifice what I have? I doubt it.
Where you live and your social circle dictate the comparisons that are made. These are not universal - moving to another part of the country will result in fairly different standards. Some of my friends (now acquaintances?) liked to spend a lot of money at expensive restaurants, hotels, etc. It's my choice whether to spend time with them (I don't spend much). Folks who need to change their wardrobe every so many months? Not in my circle.
Life is great if you set your own standards. It's liberating. Also, I've learned that the guy who makes $1M+ on Youtube is also living a very different life - one I don't want to have. Yes, I'd love the money, but not the sacrifices.
I don't get paid as much as most SV types - but whenever I audit my life, I realize that's the only thing "missing". Almost everything in my life is the way I wanted it to be (by design). I know what I value, and I both consciously and unconsciously achieved it. More money would be awesome, but do I want to sacrifice what I have? I doubt it.
Let's not kid ourselves here, an 8 hour work day takes up a ton of time when you factor in cooking, cleaning, and attending to other chores. Maybe you even have to take care of another small human too.
It is incredibly disingenuous to think all you need is a little time management and all will be right in the world.
Sometimes it takes a couple hours after a full days work just to recharge and focus deeply on a task again.
Lets not forget about the physical and psychological impact of shorter days in the winter time too.
Sincerely, a hardened in the trenches 10 year vet.
It is incredibly disingenuous to think all you need is a little time management and all will be right in the world.
Sometimes it takes a couple hours after a full days work just to recharge and focus deeply on a task again.
Lets not forget about the physical and psychological impact of shorter days in the winter time too.
Sincerely, a hardened in the trenches 10 year vet.
I started mentoring new grads after covid hit, trying to help them find jobs. The more I talked to them, the more I felt that I should have talked to them before they started their undergrad or Masters. Most of them had wasted away 4-6 years of their life and were struggling to find jobs in an already competitive field. They took the wrong courses, did not work on communication or networking and in general, seemed to have made bad decisions. Especially the ones that came from India to do their Masters (I did so myself a long time back) but had no one to guide them on what courses to take and how to go about job search, internships, etc.
100% agree. One of the first things I do when taking over a decent size sales team is install tracking software on their machines. Not because i care that they are on facebook or CNN but so i can SHOW them they are not nearly as productive as they think.
My personal theory backed only by my own professional history is that most people are only working about 3 or 4 hours a day, tops. Certain tasks like writing code or authoring content cannot be time hacked; it takes the time it takes. But I joke that I never worked LESS than I did once I became a VP and had very little tactical work to do. Most of the workday in many fields and sectors actually doesn't take all that long.
My personal theory backed only by my own professional history is that most people are only working about 3 or 4 hours a day, tops. Certain tasks like writing code or authoring content cannot be time hacked; it takes the time it takes. But I joke that I never worked LESS than I did once I became a VP and had very little tactical work to do. Most of the workday in many fields and sectors actually doesn't take all that long.
Seconded. Now that I've installed auto time tracking on my computer, my estimate is that people do 2-3 of solid work a day. The rest of time is eating, reading news, reading/writing email, social media etc. It takes serious effort to put in 8 billable hours.
What is this time tracking software?
Tbh, I'd hate to be a motivated CS-student today.
You're just bombarded with the stuff that you should know - well, according to internet forums, at least.
On top of your basic CS curriculum, you should also be "crushing it" in:
- Full-stack development - Research-level Machine Learning - Heavy side projects like creating your own crypto currency, algorithmic trading platform, or whatever.
All while burning through the tens to hundreds of leetcode problems.
And of course, if you're a frequent visitor of certain forums or blogging platforms, you will find some user that's doing all of the above. Flashy website, writing research papers on the latest ML/Deep Learning models, writing interactive and insightful tutorials on leetcode problems, all while keeping a 4.0 throughout their CS-studies and climbing up the career-ladder and getting better internships every year.
I think that if you're comparing yourself to those types, and trying to keep up with them, you're gonna end up spending a lot of time without getting much done.
Of course, all while visiting the usual suspects of time-thieves (FB, Twitter, HN, Reddit, etc.)
There's this myth being perpetuated on most CS career forums (where 99% of the posters are other CS students) that you need to be some super-human rock star to even be worthy of the most lowly position. It's that, or bust.
You're just bombarded with the stuff that you should know - well, according to internet forums, at least.
On top of your basic CS curriculum, you should also be "crushing it" in:
- Full-stack development - Research-level Machine Learning - Heavy side projects like creating your own crypto currency, algorithmic trading platform, or whatever.
All while burning through the tens to hundreds of leetcode problems.
And of course, if you're a frequent visitor of certain forums or blogging platforms, you will find some user that's doing all of the above. Flashy website, writing research papers on the latest ML/Deep Learning models, writing interactive and insightful tutorials on leetcode problems, all while keeping a 4.0 throughout their CS-studies and climbing up the career-ladder and getting better internships every year.
I think that if you're comparing yourself to those types, and trying to keep up with them, you're gonna end up spending a lot of time without getting much done.
Of course, all while visiting the usual suspects of time-thieves (FB, Twitter, HN, Reddit, etc.)
There's this myth being perpetuated on most CS career forums (where 99% of the posters are other CS students) that you need to be some super-human rock star to even be worthy of the most lowly position. It's that, or bust.
>>There's this myth being perpetuated on most CS career forums (where 99% of the posters are other CS students) that you need to be some super-human rock star to even be worthy of the most lowly position. It's that, or bust.
This is of course given you are in your prime health, family, and other life situations. Its like CS and programming jobs in general are acting like a filter to promote only the candidates who in their best form at the moment.
My guess is this illusion will shatter around the next recession/depression. When people will realize they had more than work, and bazillion tons of luck going on for them, to be the superstars they thought they were.
The gravy train always stops somewhere.
This is of course given you are in your prime health, family, and other life situations. Its like CS and programming jobs in general are acting like a filter to promote only the candidates who in their best form at the moment.
My guess is this illusion will shatter around the next recession/depression. When people will realize they had more than work, and bazillion tons of luck going on for them, to be the superstars they thought they were.
The gravy train always stops somewhere.
Thanks for reminding me to turn on screen time on my phone. I am indeed wasting a lot of time on my phone reading things that don't get me much value while procrastinating on real work or things that I consciously want to spend my time on. This problem is a lot more prevalent on my phone than on my laptop. I catch myself browsing HN without any intent and without any goal, mostly reading comments and skimming on articles. It's a complete waste of time and I'm not really getting anything from it. I wish I could come once a week and get a synthesis of what's been happening over here. There are a lot of things that I absolutely don't care about at all and filtering on categories would help me skip those. I noticed that the top 30 or 60 items on HN move rather slowly and one visit a day is enough to not feel that you're missing out. I feel that I need outside help to regulate these behaviors.
I was in a similar boat until recently. One thing that has worked brilliantly for me is to use any service that gives you a notification/curates your feed for the top posts on HN. I personally use Pushbullet for this. Since I was already using it in my phone as well as my laptop and desktop (it's a pretty handy tool to share stuffs quickly between devices), I set up the Hacker News 500 channel which sends me notification for the top items on HN. I usually get 2-3 posts throughout the day, which is more than sufficient for me.
I encourage you to look into it: https://www.pushbullet.com/
I encourage you to look into it: https://www.pushbullet.com/
[deleted]
How about every few days just actively search for HN topics that interest you? That's what I try to do.
https://hn.algolia.com/
Thanks for the suggestion, I will try algolia. What I really want is not a replacement to my addiction but I'd like to learn to control it better. Perhaps your suggestion helps if I want to come to HN on a weekly basis to get some highlights and stop reading and writing comments altogether. I will try to see how that pans out. Thanks again
I was on a similar situation until last month or so. I read this book called The Shallows by Nicholas Carr which references a lot of research that consuming lots of internet modifies your neural paths and makes you more distractable and harder to do deeper thinking (such as reading books, etc). I’ve since removed hn from my browser favorites and get a curated list of articles each friday from [1]. I just came here today to skim some articles as i’ve worked all day in a house project and my body hurts so I have no energy for other things.
This house project, some other mini-projects that i’ve done and the 2/3 books I read since last month is something i can now do because now I avoid HN (and the whole internet) by default..
[1] https://hackernewsletter.com/
This house project, some other mini-projects that i’ve done and the 2/3 books I read since last month is something i can now do because now I avoid HN (and the whole internet) by default..
[1] https://hackernewsletter.com/
I feel that's exactly what's happened to my brain pathways. Is this reversible? I'd love to get into the habit of deep thinking again. Thanks for the hakernewsletter link, I'll check that out and hopefully will make it a once a week habit.
Accordingly to the book (and research), yes! Just stop consuming so much of the typical short content on the internet, dwelve back into books or what else makes you think more deeply (house projects, hobbies, writing, whatever), and the same brain plasticity that molded your brain for short content will eventually mold your brain for deep topics..
I liked the idea of your [1] but seems we're late to the party: last issue #433, January 2nd 2019
Totally agree. FYI, a finalist in NPR's recent podcast competition had a nice take on this exact problem: https://soundcloud.com/alex-morgan-658034862/why-instagram-i...
> It's not uncommon for new grad SWEs to complain that an 8-hour work day is somehow consuming 100% of their weekday hours
I've been complaining like that when I've been spending around 3h on commute per day
Remote is life changer
On the other hand I've been commuting by public transport, so I had a lot of time to read books :P
I've been complaining like that when I've been spending around 3h on commute per day
Remote is life changer
On the other hand I've been commuting by public transport, so I had a lot of time to read books :P
> then be shocked when their reports come back at 2-3 hours or more.
That’s because I listen to a lot of Spotify.
That’s because I listen to a lot of Spotify.
The high school girl he interviews in that podcast was at 8 hours of screen time, led by TikTok, Insta, WhatsApp, YouTube, Snap, etc.
time is pretty much like money in that way, learn to manage one and you will manage the other. what you found works equally well with income as with time if you are not careful all the little numbers add up very quickly.
>Nobody likes to be told that they're wasting their free time,
Wasting free time, a.k.a living? Capitalist propaganda is so godamn effective. People now believe that every minute you spend not working is wasted time.
Dear lord.
Wasting free time, a.k.a living? Capitalist propaganda is so godamn effective. People now believe that every minute you spend not working is wasted time.
Dear lord.
That's not what the original sentence says at all.
Every minute spent not working is free time, that's pretty much true no matter how much work you do.
And you can use that free time to actually live, i.e. have deep, meaningful experiences, or waste it by consuming cheap, addictive and mostly fake content on the social network du jour.
Every minute spent not working is free time, that's pretty much true no matter how much work you do.
And you can use that free time to actually live, i.e. have deep, meaningful experiences, or waste it by consuming cheap, addictive and mostly fake content on the social network du jour.
Everyone here is reading this article as a cautionary tale on procrastination. To me it’s about the unrealistic expectations we place on ourselves. Maybe that’s due to our fake meritocratic society, or comparisons made on social media, or our parents expectations.
I thought I’d be a millionaire by now, changing the world for the better, with a Wikipedia page and a yacht. But what I really want now is to put down the measuring stick, and be ok with being me. It’s time to stop beating myself up for not living up to the absurd expectations I set for myself as a child.
I thought I’d be a millionaire by now, changing the world for the better, with a Wikipedia page and a yacht. But what I really want now is to put down the measuring stick, and be ok with being me. It’s time to stop beating myself up for not living up to the absurd expectations I set for myself as a child.
I think so, too! Sometimes we should re-evaluate our expectations and think about what we really want and why we want it. Furthermore, I think it’s important to realise that others might have other motivations such as money, success, curiosity, altruism and so forth so there really is little need to compare ourselves to them.
Most of us don’t have the energy to be productive all the time. It took a lot of work (ironically) for me to be okay with that and to allow myself to do nothing at times. Procrastination for me was the result of constant pressure which sucked so much energy that I just couldn’t BE productive anymore. Funnily enough when I allowed myself to slack around or fall a bit behind I ended up greatly improving my grades.
In the end for me it’s a tale of starting to live in the moment (as cliche as that might sound) instead of failing to meet one’s own impossible expectations.
Most of us don’t have the energy to be productive all the time. It took a lot of work (ironically) for me to be okay with that and to allow myself to do nothing at times. Procrastination for me was the result of constant pressure which sucked so much energy that I just couldn’t BE productive anymore. Funnily enough when I allowed myself to slack around or fall a bit behind I ended up greatly improving my grades.
In the end for me it’s a tale of starting to live in the moment (as cliche as that might sound) instead of failing to meet one’s own impossible expectations.
It could be worse. You could be a millionaire, have sacrificed good years of your life and your health, and realise that happiness was achievable on a shoestring all along.
We’re sold a lie from the get-go, a lovely orange carrot dangling just in front of us. Very occasionally a lucky donkey catches the carrot, because the stick broke or somesuch - but the carrot is made of wood.
This is why we have billionaires. They’re the fools who didn’t know when to quit, chewing on wooden carrot after wooden carrot, insisting they’re delicious. More and more and more and never ever enough - because material wealth is good for satisfying your fundamental needs, but once it’s done that, the marginal utility diminishes rapidly, and you derive limited satisfaction from it.
As you say, be ok with you. Be happy in this moment and that moment, however it comes - being alive is enough - ask any cancer patient.
We’re sold a lie from the get-go, a lovely orange carrot dangling just in front of us. Very occasionally a lucky donkey catches the carrot, because the stick broke or somesuch - but the carrot is made of wood.
This is why we have billionaires. They’re the fools who didn’t know when to quit, chewing on wooden carrot after wooden carrot, insisting they’re delicious. More and more and more and never ever enough - because material wealth is good for satisfying your fundamental needs, but once it’s done that, the marginal utility diminishes rapidly, and you derive limited satisfaction from it.
As you say, be ok with you. Be happy in this moment and that moment, however it comes - being alive is enough - ask any cancer patient.
The handful of (tech) billionaires I’ve met all seemed to genuinely enjoy the work that made them rich. People have different utility functions (which is a good thing!)
Writing 500 words before noon is not an unrealistic expectation. Being widely regarded as a genius writer by 35 maybe is. TFA covers both.
> Writing 500 words before noon is not an unrealistic expectation.
No doubt. To me it seems that the author is writing about being unable to meet basic goals due to depression from not having met more fanciful goals.
No doubt. To me it seems that the author is writing about being unable to meet basic goals due to depression from not having met more fanciful goals.
I think it's both.
Even while being aware of my unrealistic work expectations, I often still find myself being disappointed when I reflect on my day.
Not being productive isn't what makes me disappointed. It's procrastinating in ways that don't even make me happy. It's too easy to be sucked into hours of binging youtube, reddit, wikipedia, or twitter.
I know I'd get way more satisfaction by going on a hike, practicing piano, learning a second language, or calling my family. But the simple distractions are too convenient and addicting.
Even while being aware of my unrealistic work expectations, I often still find myself being disappointed when I reflect on my day.
Not being productive isn't what makes me disappointed. It's procrastinating in ways that don't even make me happy. It's too easy to be sucked into hours of binging youtube, reddit, wikipedia, or twitter.
I know I'd get way more satisfaction by going on a hike, practicing piano, learning a second language, or calling my family. But the simple distractions are too convenient and addicting.
Yes! It’s exactly this. I’m fine being unproductive, but at least I want to be able to reflect on my day and remember doing fun things (as opposed to dopamine roulette activities like Reddit).
I thought I'd be a millionaire by 30 too.
But I hit 30 last year and found that what I truly wanted to do was make music, write, and spend time with my family.
I don't advocate mediocrity, but everyone doesn't have to be a high achiever. It's okay to live a fulfilling life doing what you like, even if it doesn't make you rich or earn you Wikipedia entries.
But I hit 30 last year and found that what I truly wanted to do was make music, write, and spend time with my family.
I don't advocate mediocrity, but everyone doesn't have to be a high achiever. It's okay to live a fulfilling life doing what you like, even if it doesn't make you rich or earn you Wikipedia entries.
On the other hand some very well-known people felt profound conflict about not achieving their self-imposed goals before actually doing so. There's a famous story about Caesar bursting into tears at the thought of how Alexander the Great had built an empire whereas Caesar himself had done nothing of note by the same age. [1]
It's common to read about other military leaders like Alexander who felt similarly, but perhaps military historians just like these stories. The behavior seems general. I would guess that Elon Musk is pretty frustrated that his rockets don't reach Mars yet.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar#Early_life_and_c...
It's common to read about other military leaders like Alexander who felt similarly, but perhaps military historians just like these stories. The behavior seems general. I would guess that Elon Musk is pretty frustrated that his rockets don't reach Mars yet.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar#Early_life_and_c...
Survivorship bias perhaps? I suspect even more people felt profound conflict about not having achieved their goals only to continue to fall short of their aspirations.
I'm usually pretty hard on myself, but I'm glad I'm not that hard.
Basing your life on others achievements seems like a pretty sad life to live.
Basing your life on others achievements seems like a pretty sad life to live.
> with a Wikipedia page
Two of my personal projects that usually get 2-3 visitors per day have been linked from Wikipedia pages (both history-related), as a 39-year old guy that is good enough for me.
Two of my personal projects that usually get 2-3 visitors per day have been linked from Wikipedia pages (both history-related), as a 39-year old guy that is good enough for me.
Absolutely agree. In some ways I've done more than I ever expected, and in other ways I feel like I'm behind. But comparing my current self to what I thought back when I was 20 doesn't really matter at all. All that matters is that I'm happy with my life as it is, and that I feel like I have enough influence over things in order to change the things I'm not happy about.
[deleted]
I think the danger is not just unrealistic expectations from a point of view of "I'm just not that much of a genius/producer", but (not necessarily article-related) I think it's important to realize how unusual the story is of the "super successful" and "driven" people we so often compare ourselves to.
Now that I'm older, I realize that where I am is not surprising despite the work I've put in; what would have been far more unexpected would be for everything to have worked out and grown so large that I'd be one of the big successes.
That measuring stick would need to be configured against the mean, assuming it's needed at all (and it likely isn't).
Now that I'm older, I realize that where I am is not surprising despite the work I've put in; what would have been far more unexpected would be for everything to have worked out and grown so large that I'd be one of the big successes.
That measuring stick would need to be configured against the mean, assuming it's needed at all (and it likely isn't).
Paradoxically, when I had all the time in the world I frittered it away on video games and the internet.
Now that I have multiple kids and my time is extremely constrained, I am very efficient with my time usage. I listen to audiobooks while doing the dishes. I plan in my mind exactly which programming tasks I want to accomplish as soon as the kids are in bed so that I can do them quickly and still have time to spend with my wife.
Now that I have multiple kids and my time is extremely constrained, I am very efficient with my time usage. I listen to audiobooks while doing the dishes. I plan in my mind exactly which programming tasks I want to accomplish as soon as the kids are in bed so that I can do them quickly and still have time to spend with my wife.
A mentor once told me “if you want something done quickly, give it to a busy person”
If you have twenty minutes now, and don’t know when you’ll get another twenty minutes, why not do it now?
When you have hours and hours available for the rest of the week, why fret about it? You have so many other opportunities ahead.
When you have hours and hours available for the rest of the week, why fret about it? You have so many other opportunities ahead.
Alternately: When you have a wife and kids and job you like, a lot of your most important needs are well met -- if you can keep juggling everything.
Someone with hours and hours to do nothing likely isn't getting laid, isn't making much money, isn't intellectually gratified, etc. So you play games to occupy yourself to keep from going bonkers.
Someone with hours and hours to do nothing likely isn't getting laid, isn't making much money, isn't intellectually gratified, etc. So you play games to occupy yourself to keep from going bonkers.
People underestimate how incredibly hard it is to pull yourself out of habits born from socioeconomic factors. Video games give you an alternate reality, likely much better than your own.
It wasn't a criticism of video games and if you are suggesting I am underestimating something, I got myself off the street a few years ago of my own efforts.
I still play plenty of videogames. It's something I can drop at will as I get my act together, make the connections I need to make, etc. I like games and my kids always joked "Video games are our only education."
But the reality is I would rather have a life and if I had more of a life, that fact would drive a lot of my activities and there simply wouldn't be time -- or need -- to play games for hours.
I still play plenty of videogames. It's something I can drop at will as I get my act together, make the connections I need to make, etc. I like games and my kids always joked "Video games are our only education."
But the reality is I would rather have a life and if I had more of a life, that fact would drive a lot of my activities and there simply wouldn't be time -- or need -- to play games for hours.
You're so right - video games shouldn't even have been mentioned. As human ingenuity goes, there's infinite ways to "waste time".
I've spent many hours with the family playing MineCraft, and it's an amazing way to teach things like not being selfish, being cooperative, etc. to children because they experience the effects or lack of in compacted real time without permanent real-world impact.
I've spent many hours with the family playing MineCraft, and it's an amazing way to teach things like not being selfish, being cooperative, etc. to children because they experience the effects or lack of in compacted real time without permanent real-world impact.
I homeschooled my sons. After seeing how vastly superior Gungan Frontier and a similar Sim game were to my "pen and paper" style simulation in my college class on environmental biology, I went through their games and decided which games I would count as educational and for which subject.
Their joke grew out if conversations that went something like this:
Son blurts obscure historical factoid.
Me: "Where the hell did you learn that?!"
Son names video game he learned it from. Punchline: "Video games are our only education." (Vin Diesel movie line, so another excellent reason to say it to me.)
They now have a blog where that's the descriptor, basically.
Their joke grew out if conversations that went something like this:
Son blurts obscure historical factoid.
Me: "Where the hell did you learn that?!"
Son names video game he learned it from. Punchline: "Video games are our only education." (Vin Diesel movie line, so another excellent reason to say it to me.)
They now have a blog where that's the descriptor, basically.
Personally, I owe my English skills to videogames. While I later continued with proper education, the basics of grammar and vocabulary (as well as many incredibly subject-specific words) I've learned from, in order: Star Trek: Generations, Fallout, and StarCraft. I fondly remember me sitting in front of the first of these games with English/Polish dictionary and translating things on the screen word for word.
Based on the sound of his typing -- which sounds like his dad typing and I know his typing speed because I met him in typing class in high school -- my oldest son probably types at about 80wpm. This is thanks to online games with chat functions. You need to "talk" fast to coordinate with your teammates and stay on top of your duties in the game.
That's very true. Another related phenomenon that improved my typing speed is games that require execution of a lot of complex actions very quickly. Playing them competitively essentially forces you to master random access to your keyboard. In StarCraft, after grokking the core mechanics, your next primary improvement would be raising your APM (actions per minute). In terms of an OODA loop[0], most players are constrained by the Act part. So if you wanted to win, you had to master the art of issuing keyboard+mouse commands at a rate of 3 per second (= ~180 APM, which isn't even progamer level).
--
[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop
--
[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop
I was Director of Community Life for the oldest set of gifted support email lists on the internet while I was a homeschooling parent. It was common knowledge in those circles that the best way to improve typing speed for kids was to encourage them to get involved in things like online games.
My son was already a gamer. He hated his typing program. I told him he could quit doing practice typing as one of his assignments if he exceeded 35wpm -- which is my typical typing speed and I had a typing class in high school and can type about 60wpm when I am focused and yadda.
I also told him online gaming was a known way to hit a better speed and that's likely a factor in him going that route. He was gleefully happy to give up typing practice as one of his formal lessons.
My son was already a gamer. He hated his typing program. I told him he could quit doing practice typing as one of his assignments if he exceeded 35wpm -- which is my typical typing speed and I had a typing class in high school and can type about 60wpm when I am focused and yadda.
I also told him online gaming was a known way to hit a better speed and that's likely a factor in him going that route. He was gleefully happy to give up typing practice as one of his formal lessons.
I've always hoped this was a common knowledge, but unfortunately it somehow never reached my parents or my teachers.
> He hated his typing program.
I remember those typing practice programs. I always hated them. Super boring, couldn't stand them for more than 2 minutes.
Much later on (and well after I've achieved high typing speeds) I've discovered The Typing of The Dead - a House of The Dead clone where you shoot zombies by correctly typing words. For me, that was the ultimate typing program: it gave the same exercises, but in the context where I could spend hours in front of it. I suppose that was an early form of what we know today as "gamification".
> He hated his typing program.
I remember those typing practice programs. I always hated them. Super boring, couldn't stand them for more than 2 minutes.
Much later on (and well after I've achieved high typing speeds) I've discovered The Typing of The Dead - a House of The Dead clone where you shoot zombies by correctly typing words. For me, that was the ultimate typing program: it gave the same exercises, but in the context where I could spend hours in front of it. I suppose that was an early form of what we know today as "gamification".
I doubt you'll find poor people playing video games in such disproportionately larger numbers to validate this hypothesis.
I think code did that for me! Not that I’ve been poor financially, but perhaps in terms of friendships.
It's hard to stop being lazy too
At age 35, I was diagnosed with a genetic disorder. I spent years joking "They finally found a better name for my problem than lazy or crazy."
What gets labeled laziness all too often seems to be exhaustion, invisible disability or other hidden problems.
What gets labeled laziness all too often seems to be exhaustion, invisible disability or other hidden problems.
> What gets labeled laziness all too often seems to be exhaustion, invisible disability or other hidden problems.
Agreed.
A good, old essay on this and related questions wrt. character and mental diseases, by Scott Alexander back before he had his own blog: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/895quRDaK6gR2rM82/diseased-t....
Agreed.
A good, old essay on this and related questions wrt. character and mental diseases, by Scott Alexander back before he had his own blog: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/895quRDaK6gR2rM82/diseased-t....
My perceived laziness turned out to be executive dysfunction caused by autism.
'all too often' is a bit subjective, and doesn't refute the fact that laziness exists.
I honestly don't know if that's true. Everyone I have ever known who was supposedly being "lazy" turned out to have some serious personal issues, often issues that were not being identified.
In my experience, if you want to cure "laziness," the best thing to do is identify the underlying cause of the failure to get anything done and address that.
I homeschooled two special-needs sons who had a lot of issues that did not resolve for being lectured or something. They resolved by figuring why X was happening and addressing that.
Sometimes other people find it empowering to get that point of view put out there. It's an epiphany for some people that they aren't actually lazy like everyone has always told them. They just don't have the energy for some reason and addressing that can help make their life finally work after decades of frustration.
In my experience, if you want to cure "laziness," the best thing to do is identify the underlying cause of the failure to get anything done and address that.
I homeschooled two special-needs sons who had a lot of issues that did not resolve for being lectured or something. They resolved by figuring why X was happening and addressing that.
Sometimes other people find it empowering to get that point of view put out there. It's an epiphany for some people that they aren't actually lazy like everyone has always told them. They just don't have the energy for some reason and addressing that can help make their life finally work after decades of frustration.
I’m very nostalgic about the countless hours I frittered away on video games and the internet as an adolescent. Part of me thinks it made me the person I am today, who I am proud of. I recently joined a Counter Strike team with work and had some of the most fun times I can think of recently. I compare that with the time I put aside to learn 3D modelling, which was fun in its own way but required more self motivation and the satisfaction took a lot more time to achieve. It made me question what society accepts as a valid way to spend spare time, as well as the purpose of how we spend our spare time.
I feel this deeply. I was extremely lazy in high school and college and then got my act together gradually throughout my 20s to the point where I feel like I no longer waste much time. I've experienced some success and accomplished goals as a result, but when I look back on my life, I remember those hours wasted playing video games most fondly.
There's a motivational saying that when you die you get to meet the person you could have become, and that's your individual heaven/hell. I've got a nagging fear that maybe if I learn to speak French or sell a business or whatever, raise a family, grow old and die, I'll come face to face with the guy who played 10,000 hours of Civ.
There's a motivational saying that when you die you get to meet the person you could have become, and that's your individual heaven/hell. I've got a nagging fear that maybe if I learn to speak French or sell a business or whatever, raise a family, grow old and die, I'll come face to face with the guy who played 10,000 hours of Civ.
You can't play 10,000 hours of Civ. At some point, the game become repetitive because the possibilities space is very limited. EU4, on the other hand, has pretty much unlimited possibilities. You can negotiate deals with neighboring countries, there are way more countries (whole world actually) than in Civ, you have a complicated Trade system that can make you money, a more sophisticated religion structure that you can use for your advantage...
Wait, I should stop playing these games.
Wait, I should stop playing these games.
I'll think about you while I'm playing video games today
pours some Monster energy drink on the floor
pours some Monster energy drink on the floor
Here’s hoping you don’t have carpets
Me too. I remember my countless hours playing (arguably wasted) diablo 2 very fondly. I still recall a lot of the detailed stats of specific characters I had built. Also helps I had sunk the hours playing with my partner at the time, so it was also a bit of a bonding moment. Didn’t help my grades any though.
If you remember those times fondly, no time was wasted.
Yeah, what's worse is spending hours on a game only to have forgotten those times, the memory existing only as a playtime stat on Steam.
You don't have to remember something perpetually for it to be worthwhile. I've got a young dog, and I've spent 1-2 hours (shared with partner) every single day for the last 18 months outside walking. I don't remember all of those walks, even some of the ones that were very enjoyable at the time. But I enjoyed them at the time, (or maybe I didn't, it was pouring rain etc).
Video games are an easy target, but you can make the same argument about any lesiure activity. Something doesn't have to have an output to be worth spending time on.
Video games are an easy target, but you can make the same argument about any lesiure activity. Something doesn't have to have an output to be worth spending time on.
> It made me question what society accepts as a valid way to spend spare time
Well, to be brutally honest with you, it's one thing for you to be proud of yourself for playing video games, but why would anyone else see that as something pride-worthy?
Typically, one takes justifiable pride for accomplishments that stand up to external scrutiny. That usually comes in the form of the accomplishment having an element of sacrifice, of pain and difficulty, of opportunity costs paid, and of a result that stands on its own as something not everyone can do. I am proud of some of my adventures; proud of some of my work; proud of some of the artistic things I have created. None of them are extremely amazing in the grand scheme of things, and I don't let any of it get to my head, but they do give me stories to tell at the bar that aren't dismissed with a wave of the hand as being frittered-away time.
Video games, on the other hand, are not exactly grand sacrificial effort. I can't imagine telling someone I was proud of myself for spending a few hours killing orcs on a screen while eating processed snack food alone in my underwear.
> as well as the purpose of how we spend our spare time.
It's only "spare" if you've really satisfied yourself in your best judgement of what you could otherwise be doing.
I like to put Slack and Laziness on a continuum. Laziness is putting things off, avoiding important tasks, pawning them off on others, rationalizing why you shouldn't bother, finding easier ways out even if the end result isn't as good, cutting corners. From the article:
> I was supposed to renew my car registration today. I haven’t opened the Web site.
That's classic laziness. Sure, the consequences can be dealt with later, a day or two without driving won't be the end of the world, but it also took about as much effort to write this self-effacing article as it would have to just renew the insurance and move on.
Slack, on the opposite side of the spectrum (and before the word was co-opted by a program that ironically takes up all possible Slack), is free time that you carve out of the world with your actions. Slack is arranging things so that you have time to relax, time to "surf down the luck plane" that you have created for yourself, so that you can allow things to proceed knowing that at the end of the slope, you're not actually in a worse off position than when you started. Slack is paid vacation time, where laziness is unemployment. Slack is a glass of wine at the end of the day, laziness is beer for breakfast. Slack is sitting in the hot tub after you work out, laziness is sitting in the bathtub after you eat a microwaved dinner. Slack is posting on HN on a cloudy Saturday morning while the kids (with breakfast in their tummies) watch a bit of TV, laziness is posting on HN when you're supposed to be writing a program at 3:00 on a Thursday afternoon.
Video games are something you can do in your slack time, or they're something you can do because you're lazy. That's the difference between a healthy hobby and a damaging addiction.
Well, to be brutally honest with you, it's one thing for you to be proud of yourself for playing video games, but why would anyone else see that as something pride-worthy?
Typically, one takes justifiable pride for accomplishments that stand up to external scrutiny. That usually comes in the form of the accomplishment having an element of sacrifice, of pain and difficulty, of opportunity costs paid, and of a result that stands on its own as something not everyone can do. I am proud of some of my adventures; proud of some of my work; proud of some of the artistic things I have created. None of them are extremely amazing in the grand scheme of things, and I don't let any of it get to my head, but they do give me stories to tell at the bar that aren't dismissed with a wave of the hand as being frittered-away time.
Video games, on the other hand, are not exactly grand sacrificial effort. I can't imagine telling someone I was proud of myself for spending a few hours killing orcs on a screen while eating processed snack food alone in my underwear.
> as well as the purpose of how we spend our spare time.
It's only "spare" if you've really satisfied yourself in your best judgement of what you could otherwise be doing.
I like to put Slack and Laziness on a continuum. Laziness is putting things off, avoiding important tasks, pawning them off on others, rationalizing why you shouldn't bother, finding easier ways out even if the end result isn't as good, cutting corners. From the article:
> I was supposed to renew my car registration today. I haven’t opened the Web site.
That's classic laziness. Sure, the consequences can be dealt with later, a day or two without driving won't be the end of the world, but it also took about as much effort to write this self-effacing article as it would have to just renew the insurance and move on.
Slack, on the opposite side of the spectrum (and before the word was co-opted by a program that ironically takes up all possible Slack), is free time that you carve out of the world with your actions. Slack is arranging things so that you have time to relax, time to "surf down the luck plane" that you have created for yourself, so that you can allow things to proceed knowing that at the end of the slope, you're not actually in a worse off position than when you started. Slack is paid vacation time, where laziness is unemployment. Slack is a glass of wine at the end of the day, laziness is beer for breakfast. Slack is sitting in the hot tub after you work out, laziness is sitting in the bathtub after you eat a microwaved dinner. Slack is posting on HN on a cloudy Saturday morning while the kids (with breakfast in their tummies) watch a bit of TV, laziness is posting on HN when you're supposed to be writing a program at 3:00 on a Thursday afternoon.
Video games are something you can do in your slack time, or they're something you can do because you're lazy. That's the difference between a healthy hobby and a damaging addiction.
> Well, to be brutally honest with you, it's one thing for you to be proud of yourself for playing video games, but why would anyone else see that as something pride-worthy?
Putting aside the fact that many people have made highly successful careers out of playing video games, why should I care at all what other people think about it? Life is too short to only do the things that other people think are "pride-worthy". Do the things that make you happy.
Putting aside the fact that many people have made highly successful careers out of playing video games, why should I care at all what other people think about it? Life is too short to only do the things that other people think are "pride-worthy". Do the things that make you happy.
My sons always said "Video games are our only education" because of the many times I was astonished they knew some obscure historical detail and they had learned it from a video game.
My oldest, who is math challenged, was livid when I finally successfully explained to him what Algebra was and he went "I've been doing that for years while playing video games!!!" He's still mad about it and it's probably at least two decades later.
Well, to be brutally honest with you
I read somewhere that "people who value brutal honesty value brutality more than honesty." As someone fond of the saying "I'm too truthful to be good," I took that to heart.
My oldest, who is math challenged, was livid when I finally successfully explained to him what Algebra was and he went "I've been doing that for years while playing video games!!!" He's still mad about it and it's probably at least two decades later.
Well, to be brutally honest with you
I read somewhere that "people who value brutal honesty value brutality more than honesty." As someone fond of the saying "I'm too truthful to be good," I took that to heart.
I’m pretty convinced that some games have made me smarter. It sounds daft, but I remember completing The Witness and felt like I had transcended somehow. Still haven’t found the right way to put it on my CV
> Well, to be brutally honest with you, it's one thing for you to be proud of yourself for playing video games, but why would anyone else see that as something pride-worthy?
For exactly the same reasons anyone thinks that reading novels is pride-worthy. People who plays some of the more complicated niche games have some respect from me at least.
Similarly getting good at a game requires dedication and work, so people with good ranks in games also has some respect from me.
For exactly the same reasons anyone thinks that reading novels is pride-worthy. People who plays some of the more complicated niche games have some respect from me at least.
Similarly getting good at a game requires dedication and work, so people with good ranks in games also has some respect from me.
I should clarify that I’m not proud of myself for playing video games, but that they were an important part of my life which no doubt shaped the person I am today. I do think people can be proud of playing video games though. The amount of hard work required to get into the top rank of competitive games such as Counter Strike is no different from any other sport. It’s a deep game with, I would argue, more to learn than most traditional sports.
Yes, I completely agree video games can be an unhealthy pursuit to the detriment of one’s life. If I’d put some of those hours I spent playing video games at uni into my course work I would’ve got better grades. I actually stopped playing games for the better part of my twenties to pursue more valid hobbies, such as photography, which I’m glad of. It made me a more interesting person. I came back to playing games a few years ago and realised I had given up something in my life that gave me so much joy. I think it’s hard to develop that deep connection to anything that we don’t do when we’re adolescents.
Yes, I completely agree video games can be an unhealthy pursuit to the detriment of one’s life. If I’d put some of those hours I spent playing video games at uni into my course work I would’ve got better grades. I actually stopped playing games for the better part of my twenties to pursue more valid hobbies, such as photography, which I’m glad of. It made me a more interesting person. I came back to playing games a few years ago and realised I had given up something in my life that gave me so much joy. I think it’s hard to develop that deep connection to anything that we don’t do when we’re adolescents.
Really liked the separation between slack and laziness!
> Typically, one takes justifiable pride for accomplishments that stand up to external scrutiny. That usually comes in the form of the accomplishment having an element of sacrifice, of pain and difficulty
I think this is where a lot of people might lose themselves, and I might be misinterpreting you here, but: I think an important distinction is that people should take pride in providing value for their community, not having it be approved by them. Otherwise we might end up acting contrary to our beliefs, and feeling a hollow sense of achievement in the end.
Also, by your definition of hard work being pride-worthy, many gamers might meet that criteria, especially the professionals (?). Games can often be more competitive and demanding than anything I've experienced in real life. I've only teetered on the edge of competitive levels, so in a sense I wasted a lot of my time, since it all wasn't deliberate, but parts of it were definitely hard work, filled with passion.
> Typically, one takes justifiable pride for accomplishments that stand up to external scrutiny. That usually comes in the form of the accomplishment having an element of sacrifice, of pain and difficulty
I think this is where a lot of people might lose themselves, and I might be misinterpreting you here, but: I think an important distinction is that people should take pride in providing value for their community, not having it be approved by them. Otherwise we might end up acting contrary to our beliefs, and feeling a hollow sense of achievement in the end.
Also, by your definition of hard work being pride-worthy, many gamers might meet that criteria, especially the professionals (?). Games can often be more competitive and demanding than anything I've experienced in real life. I've only teetered on the edge of competitive levels, so in a sense I wasted a lot of my time, since it all wasn't deliberate, but parts of it were definitely hard work, filled with passion.
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Lots of us here have wasted our youth playing games and are uncomfortable with the fact that it was, indeed, a waste.
This describes me very well. What the hell was I doing with all that time during my 20s? I wasn't out hiking up a storm, I wasn't making a lot of music, I wasn't out drinking with friends at every chance. I was inside doing nothing, shitposting online, watching trash TV that I can barely remember the plots of now. Work was productive, but when I went home, I left it at work... Relationship was stable, but I didn't max out every minute of it when I could...
Now, as soon as the kids are in bed, virtually every scrap of time is used for something productive. Except, obviously, for lazy Saturday mornings posting on HN ;-)
Now, as soon as the kids are in bed, virtually every scrap of time is used for something productive. Except, obviously, for lazy Saturday mornings posting on HN ;-)
I read this somewhere, I tried to find the source, and I'm sad I can't properly attribute it:
When you are young, you trade time for money.
When you are middle aged, you trade money for convenience.
When you are old, you trade money for time.
When you are young, you trade time for money.
When you are middle aged, you trade money for convenience.
When you are old, you trade money for time.
Similar boat. I flip-flop between efficient time usage, and squandering my free time, because I'm so fried I just want to do nothing.
I've had a similar experience. There is something about scarcity of time that breeds discipline. Whenever I go through a period of life where I have to spend a huge amount of time on some particular task project I always think "man, when this is over I'm going to be able to use all this time to do X,Y,Z. It's gonna be great!" And then the project ends and I essentially waste all of my newly found free time. I end up accomplishing less, even on my side projects somehow.
Yea there seems to be some thing of a positive feedback loop that one can get into. I’ve experienced this multiple times too. When I had a boring and easy job I had all sorts of aspirations of doing a side business or learning some new stuff etc. I ended up doing none of that and mostly playing games instead. When I had a busy (but interesting) job I ended up doing side projects, socializing a lot more and generally being more productive outside of work. Something like momentum from one activity carrying through to others.
Personally, the unquestioned Ethos of Productivity characteristic of early 21st century Western Society is much more dangerous than the distractions which can sometimes fill unstructured time.
The psychological rigidity and social sacrifices required of always being productive (with little to no unstructured leisure time) actively harms individuals and the societies in which they are embedded, perhaps to the exact extent they increase tangible and intangible forms of wealth.
The psychological rigidity and social sacrifices required of always being productive (with little to no unstructured leisure time) actively harms individuals and the societies in which they are embedded, perhaps to the exact extent they increase tangible and intangible forms of wealth.
Viewing this as business productivity versus distractions is a false dichotomy, though.
Life isn't just a series of context switches between being productive at work and wasting time at home. The goal is to be intentional with how you spend your time.
For example, coordinating a social dinner with friends isn't work, but it also isn't a waste of time. Going to the gym isn't typical productivity, but it isn't a waste of time either. Even playing video games to catch of with old friends isn't entirely a waste of time.
However, the modern world is full of traps that will lull people into spending their time in ways that feel enjoyable in the moment, but feel wasteful in retrospect. It's easy to pull out your phone and scroll Twitter for 30 minutes, but it takes more effort to pull out your phone and call and old friend or a grandparent for a check-in. It's easy to drop on the couch and select from an endless series of TV shows on Netflix and Hulu, but it takes a little more effort to go for a walk or go to the gym. Afterward, which of those two activities feels like a better use of your free time?
> The psychological rigidity and social sacrifices required of always being productive (with little to no unstructured leisure time)
Is this really a common goal, though? I've been around some extremely productive and successful people in my career, but none of them held any illusions about minimizing leisure time. I've also been in some high pressure and highly competitive environments, but the number of people who adopted an "all work and no play" approach to life was vanishingly small. In fact, the people who are most motivated at work are often most motivated to arrange the after-work get together, or the weekend trip for the group of friends, or to invite people over for home-cooked meals so we can catch up.
Life isn't just a series of context switches between being productive at work and wasting time at home. The goal is to be intentional with how you spend your time.
For example, coordinating a social dinner with friends isn't work, but it also isn't a waste of time. Going to the gym isn't typical productivity, but it isn't a waste of time either. Even playing video games to catch of with old friends isn't entirely a waste of time.
However, the modern world is full of traps that will lull people into spending their time in ways that feel enjoyable in the moment, but feel wasteful in retrospect. It's easy to pull out your phone and scroll Twitter for 30 minutes, but it takes more effort to pull out your phone and call and old friend or a grandparent for a check-in. It's easy to drop on the couch and select from an endless series of TV shows on Netflix and Hulu, but it takes a little more effort to go for a walk or go to the gym. Afterward, which of those two activities feels like a better use of your free time?
> The psychological rigidity and social sacrifices required of always being productive (with little to no unstructured leisure time)
Is this really a common goal, though? I've been around some extremely productive and successful people in my career, but none of them held any illusions about minimizing leisure time. I've also been in some high pressure and highly competitive environments, but the number of people who adopted an "all work and no play" approach to life was vanishingly small. In fact, the people who are most motivated at work are often most motivated to arrange the after-work get together, or the weekend trip for the group of friends, or to invite people over for home-cooked meals so we can catch up.
> In fact, the people who are most motivated at work are often most motivated to arrange the after-work get together, or the weekend trip for the group of friends, or to invite people over for home-cooked meals so we can catch up.
There seems to be a kind of phenomenon, like being in the zone but much longer (weeks at a time instead of hours), where you have an extreme drive to do everything you have to and want to do, a drive to live. I've only experienced it twice, in what I fondly remember as the most productive weeks in my life. And in those times, I'd juggle ridiculous amount of work with social occasions and wandering around, with no problem and a lot of happiness.
I wish I knew how to reproduce it, because these were also what I remember as the happiest of times. I suspect the people you mention are in this mode constantly. I wish I knew what's their secret. And not because I have a desire to be a workaholic or something - but I'd like to feel again those infinite amounts of energy and sheer will to make things happen.
There seems to be a kind of phenomenon, like being in the zone but much longer (weeks at a time instead of hours), where you have an extreme drive to do everything you have to and want to do, a drive to live. I've only experienced it twice, in what I fondly remember as the most productive weeks in my life. And in those times, I'd juggle ridiculous amount of work with social occasions and wandering around, with no problem and a lot of happiness.
I wish I knew how to reproduce it, because these were also what I remember as the happiest of times. I suspect the people you mention are in this mode constantly. I wish I knew what's their secret. And not because I have a desire to be a workaholic or something - but I'd like to feel again those infinite amounts of energy and sheer will to make things happen.
I know what you mean. I might feel that way a few days in a row every couple of months if I'm lucky and rarely ever more than 2 days in a row.
It's a weird, full-body change for me. When I'm in that kind of zone it's like my pre-frontal cortex finally took over control from my lizard brain. Or maybe it's just hormones.
I can do what I choose to do. To focus. To exercise and give 100%. Uncomfortable sensations like cold weather or spicy food feel easy to tolerate.
One other anecdote: occasionally I will have a day full of energy and getting motivated to work hard on things comes easily. Almost like clockwork, I will realize the next day that I'm sick (like a mild cold). I'm leaning to the reverse causation hypothesis (as the body is getting sick, it provides me the energy to work hard to prepare for the later downtime) but I guess it's also possible that whatever energy I'm feeling also leads to immune system weakness?
Anyways, just sharing some thoughts. If I could figure out how to live at that kind of level even one day a week reliably, that would be incredible.
It's a weird, full-body change for me. When I'm in that kind of zone it's like my pre-frontal cortex finally took over control from my lizard brain. Or maybe it's just hormones.
I can do what I choose to do. To focus. To exercise and give 100%. Uncomfortable sensations like cold weather or spicy food feel easy to tolerate.
One other anecdote: occasionally I will have a day full of energy and getting motivated to work hard on things comes easily. Almost like clockwork, I will realize the next day that I'm sick (like a mild cold). I'm leaning to the reverse causation hypothesis (as the body is getting sick, it provides me the energy to work hard to prepare for the later downtime) but I guess it's also possible that whatever energy I'm feeling also leads to immune system weakness?
Anyways, just sharing some thoughts. If I could figure out how to live at that kind of level even one day a week reliably, that would be incredible.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
I've never observed the "feeling sick" issue myself in periods of greater productivity, but that could be because I wasn't paying attention - I have "evening sickness" like you described roughly 2-4 times a month, and I end up just popping some paracetamol and feeling fine the next day. My blood work comes out OK on checkups, so I (and my doctors) guess it's likely some mild allergy rearing its ugly head every now and then.
I can share some things that I've found out over the years that are not helping:
- Alcohol. I tried that because during my one month-long super-productivity period I was also drinking socially quite a bit. After testing I ultimately rejected this hypothesis; regular alcohol consumption doesn't seem to help me get back to this "flow state" (and makes sleep worse).
- Sleep deprivation. Naturally, in the golden period I was doing so much that I slept irregularly and less than I should. So I tried sleeping less, but it didn't help.
- Music. I had a certain set of songs I was constantly listening to on my headphones as I made the world subject to my will. The songs still get me in a kind of productive mood, but the effect seems to hold for 5 minutes, not 5 weeks.
- Anxiety. Turns out having it is orthogonal to super-productivity! I had anxiety problems back in these golden times, I had them later on, over time I've learned to cope - but between low and high background anxiety levels, the super-flow didn't return.
That super-productivity I'm seeking comes with a very specific kind of feeling, like you're doing logistical parkour through your day. And now in comparison, lack of it feels like an engine that can't start. Or like those episodes in Star Trek where they can't stabilize some force field, and it keeps sorta-working, but blinking in and out. That's how I feel these days.
I've never observed the "feeling sick" issue myself in periods of greater productivity, but that could be because I wasn't paying attention - I have "evening sickness" like you described roughly 2-4 times a month, and I end up just popping some paracetamol and feeling fine the next day. My blood work comes out OK on checkups, so I (and my doctors) guess it's likely some mild allergy rearing its ugly head every now and then.
I can share some things that I've found out over the years that are not helping:
- Alcohol. I tried that because during my one month-long super-productivity period I was also drinking socially quite a bit. After testing I ultimately rejected this hypothesis; regular alcohol consumption doesn't seem to help me get back to this "flow state" (and makes sleep worse).
- Sleep deprivation. Naturally, in the golden period I was doing so much that I slept irregularly and less than I should. So I tried sleeping less, but it didn't help.
- Music. I had a certain set of songs I was constantly listening to on my headphones as I made the world subject to my will. The songs still get me in a kind of productive mood, but the effect seems to hold for 5 minutes, not 5 weeks.
- Anxiety. Turns out having it is orthogonal to super-productivity! I had anxiety problems back in these golden times, I had them later on, over time I've learned to cope - but between low and high background anxiety levels, the super-flow didn't return.
That super-productivity I'm seeking comes with a very specific kind of feeling, like you're doing logistical parkour through your day. And now in comparison, lack of it feels like an engine that can't start. Or like those episodes in Star Trek where they can't stabilize some force field, and it keeps sorta-working, but blinking in and out. That's how I feel these days.
You mention irregular sleep as a factor here, did you ever try taking a nap every day to see if that helps?
The only time I've had this sort of hyper-productivity feeling, I was working out consistently in the mornings, and always napping around noon, maybe thereby giving a boost in energy levels for "the next stretch" of the day.
I also wish I could reproduce this sensation. For me, I think having clear overarching long term goals, that every routine action built towards helped a lot. Summoning the energy to get started is a lot easier if I have an obvious reason for doing it, and once I get started I usually felt great about it anyways.
The only time I've had this sort of hyper-productivity feeling, I was working out consistently in the mornings, and always napping around noon, maybe thereby giving a boost in energy levels for "the next stretch" of the day.
I also wish I could reproduce this sensation. For me, I think having clear overarching long term goals, that every routine action built towards helped a lot. Summoning the energy to get started is a lot easier if I have an obvious reason for doing it, and once I get started I usually felt great about it anyways.
I spent a few weeks trying to do short (10-20 minute) afternoon naps and they did work great for helping me transition from "day job" focus to "work on personal projects" focus.
In my experience, a good nap could take me from 50% back to 90% but other times I'd wake up feeling queasy, dizzy, grumpy or low-mood. I stopped due to those unexpected side effects, but it seems worth trying again in the future.
Working out consistently may be an important part of the picture. One thing I've learned for certain about myself is that hard workouts will destroy my energy level for the next 1-2 days. So no heavy-weight lifting, 3-hour bouldering sessions or long heavy-breathing runs. Adding in light jogging every evening didn't make much of a difference in either direction.
I may try something like a 2-3 mile run each morning and see if the morning exercise makes a difference.
In my experience, a good nap could take me from 50% back to 90% but other times I'd wake up feeling queasy, dizzy, grumpy or low-mood. I stopped due to those unexpected side effects, but it seems worth trying again in the future.
Working out consistently may be an important part of the picture. One thing I've learned for certain about myself is that hard workouts will destroy my energy level for the next 1-2 days. So no heavy-weight lifting, 3-hour bouldering sessions or long heavy-breathing runs. Adding in light jogging every evening didn't make much of a difference in either direction.
I may try something like a 2-3 mile run each morning and see if the morning exercise makes a difference.
Thank you for sharing, also.
Until I read your original comment I sort of forgot about that sort of feeling since it's been months of normal daily grind. I wonder if anyone has done serious study into this type of performance.
Some things I've found:
- Waking up way earlier than usual works for about 1 day a week but then I'm more tired the next few days.
- Hydration helps me. A big cup of water is more important than coffee in the morning.
- Caffeine is great. I want to try a detox and re-introduction.
- Socialization is a double edged sword. I find it easier to be hyper-productive when my life has enough interpersonal connection, but being with people is fun and the more I socialize the harder I find it to settle into flow at work
- Eliminating distractions is really important for me (or maybe it's a side effect?) but in my times of hyper-productivity there is no distractions or desires for distractions (ex: video games, social media, etc)
Until I read your original comment I sort of forgot about that sort of feeling since it's been months of normal daily grind. I wonder if anyone has done serious study into this type of performance.
Some things I've found:
- Waking up way earlier than usual works for about 1 day a week but then I'm more tired the next few days.
- Hydration helps me. A big cup of water is more important than coffee in the morning.
- Caffeine is great. I want to try a detox and re-introduction.
- Socialization is a double edged sword. I find it easier to be hyper-productive when my life has enough interpersonal connection, but being with people is fun and the more I socialize the harder I find it to settle into flow at work
- Eliminating distractions is really important for me (or maybe it's a side effect?) but in my times of hyper-productivity there is no distractions or desires for distractions (ex: video games, social media, etc)
A thought occurred to me today: could it be some kind of "sugar high"? If I'm getting my timeline right (this was 7 years ago), my hyper-productivity period happened about when I stopped being on a ketogenic (carb-minimizing) diet, and got back to eating high-carb food.
(During my time on keto, I didn't feel any significant energy loss below the baseline; but I wonder if reintroducing carbs after being deprived of them for a while could have created a temporary state of high energy?)
(During my time on keto, I didn't feel any significant energy loss below the baseline; but I wonder if reintroducing carbs after being deprived of them for a while could have created a temporary state of high energy?)
I know for me there is a definite diet aspect on a daily basis, but I don't remember if that's been the case during any of the weeks where I've felt invincible.
But on a small-scale basis: - Eating a big simple-carb-heavy meal will absolutely ruin my energy focus the rest of the afternoon - However if I've been running a deficit and feel low-energy, a moderate meal of complex carbs (ex: bowl of pasta) will give me enough energy for a few hours of high-energy focused work
I've done keto once or twice at various points when I was more into fitness and there's something nice about the consistent levels of energy.
Have you tried going on keto again? I wonder if there's some magic recipe of cycling on-and-off carbs that can fuel extreme bouts of energy without negative health implications
But on a small-scale basis: - Eating a big simple-carb-heavy meal will absolutely ruin my energy focus the rest of the afternoon - However if I've been running a deficit and feel low-energy, a moderate meal of complex carbs (ex: bowl of pasta) will give me enough energy for a few hours of high-energy focused work
I've done keto once or twice at various points when I was more into fitness and there's something nice about the consistent levels of energy.
Have you tried going on keto again? I wonder if there's some magic recipe of cycling on-and-off carbs that can fuel extreme bouts of energy without negative health implications
I haven't tried keto again. I'm married now, and any dieting has to be coordinated for two people (to save on cooking efforts). My wife doesn't like the kind of foods that form the core of the diet. So instead, I'm just looking at calorie-intake-minimizing diets.
Agreed on big simple-carbs meals; that's a sure-fire way for me to shut down my brain for a couple of hours.
Agreed on big simple-carbs meals; that's a sure-fire way for me to shut down my brain for a couple of hours.
Replying in parallel, because I have further thoughts to share. Ever since this comment thread started I've been thinking a lot about those times of hyperproductivity I've described, and I've identified couple things that were true in both cases, and thus are hypotheses worth checking out:
- In both cases I had a hard deadline and a well-defined set of goals, but there was a big gap between "minimum acceptable outcome" and "best possible outcome", with rewards scaling with the outcome. Something back then made me set my sights on the high end of that spectrum.
- I wasn't really blocking other people - if I didn't meet my deadline, I'd suffer some limited (and mostly non-financial) loss, but nobody else's work would be destroyed by this. I.e. in one case my work was irrelevant to anyone but myself, and in the other it was an optional (though strongly desired) dependency.
- I had people to impress. In one case personally, in the other I wanted to make our group look impressive in the local community.
- Both cases have had a significant "like hell I/we can't do it, just hold my beer and watch this" factor. I.e. the deadline was tight, and relevant people didn't believe it could be done in the time remaining.
These factors are a bit harder to reproduce. Most of situations I encounter these days don't have truly hard deadlines ("there's a release next week" is almost never a hard deadline in practice), and yet at the same time involve potential losses to other people (if the release actually happens and I don't deliver, I might derail it). There's little space to go above-and-beyond, in a way that doesn't feel like setting yourself fake goals for the purpose of self-gamification.
I'll be thinking about ways to test these hypotheses and, if any of them turns out to be a significant factor, to engineer my life to make use of it.
- In both cases I had a hard deadline and a well-defined set of goals, but there was a big gap between "minimum acceptable outcome" and "best possible outcome", with rewards scaling with the outcome. Something back then made me set my sights on the high end of that spectrum.
- I wasn't really blocking other people - if I didn't meet my deadline, I'd suffer some limited (and mostly non-financial) loss, but nobody else's work would be destroyed by this. I.e. in one case my work was irrelevant to anyone but myself, and in the other it was an optional (though strongly desired) dependency.
- I had people to impress. In one case personally, in the other I wanted to make our group look impressive in the local community.
- Both cases have had a significant "like hell I/we can't do it, just hold my beer and watch this" factor. I.e. the deadline was tight, and relevant people didn't believe it could be done in the time remaining.
These factors are a bit harder to reproduce. Most of situations I encounter these days don't have truly hard deadlines ("there's a release next week" is almost never a hard deadline in practice), and yet at the same time involve potential losses to other people (if the release actually happens and I don't deliver, I might derail it). There's little space to go above-and-beyond, in a way that doesn't feel like setting yourself fake goals for the purpose of self-gamification.
I'll be thinking about ways to test these hypotheses and, if any of them turns out to be a significant factor, to engineer my life to make use of it.
I’ve had that exact same experience, of feeling sick preceded by a day of near manic state. It’s gotten to the point where I can predict the following day I will feel sick, so I try and start resting more that first day.
Cool! Didn’t know anyone else felt this
Cool! Didn’t know anyone else felt this
I am not sure but I think you misunderstood Mistersquid, in that he associates productivity not only with work but with other things and times in life too. That's why he speaks of unstructured time in contrast. He doesn't make an opposition work vs leisure, he makes an opposition between productivity and un-structuration.
Typically the people about whom you talk in your last paragraph are trying to be productive even in their leisure time.
Typically the people about whom you talk in your last paragraph are trying to be productive even in their leisure time.
I have a feeling this is even more damaging for Millenials, because they constantly compare themselves with the rest of the world. In a sense, even leisure has turned into competition.
When I was in my teens a long time ago I did sports and learned classical guitar. If I had seen the acrobatics you see daily on Reddit or the "casual home musicians" on Youtube, I'd probably have given up all my efforts.
Doing a backflip seems like the normal thing any guy should be able to do nowadays.
When I was in my teens a long time ago I did sports and learned classical guitar. If I had seen the acrobatics you see daily on Reddit or the "casual home musicians" on Youtube, I'd probably have given up all my efforts.
Doing a backflip seems like the normal thing any guy should be able to do nowadays.
I read this a lot online, but strangely enough I see the opposite in practice. Young people who grew up immersed in social media are primed to recognize the difference between a rising social media star and the norm. It's the older people who associate any degree of notoriety with ultimate success who struggle to understand the difference between a super star and someone with a lot of social media followers.
> If I had seen the acrobatics you see daily on Reddit or the "casual home musicians" on Youtube, I'd probably have given up all my efforts.
But you wouldn't give up your efforts if you attended a concert of a famous musician, would you? Seeing a video with a million views on YouTube is a step below being a famous musician to young people.
If anything, seeing people gain small degrees of fame and notoriety without going all the way to the top of their field is even more motivating for young people. Seeing different levels of success drives home the point that success isn't binary, it's a spectrum.
> If I had seen the acrobatics you see daily on Reddit or the "casual home musicians" on Youtube, I'd probably have given up all my efforts.
But you wouldn't give up your efforts if you attended a concert of a famous musician, would you? Seeing a video with a million views on YouTube is a step below being a famous musician to young people.
If anything, seeing people gain small degrees of fame and notoriety without going all the way to the top of their field is even more motivating for young people. Seeing different levels of success drives home the point that success isn't binary, it's a spectrum.
I don’t think the feeling of inadequacy from seeing those more successful is generational.
I think it’s more a reflection of the guilt you harbor at that time, e.g. if I just spent a weak procrastinating, I’ll resent successful people more than if I spent a week productive.
To your point of internet and social media increasing the spectrum of success, I definitely think music industry is a great example of that.
I think it’s more a reflection of the guilt you harbor at that time, e.g. if I just spent a weak procrastinating, I’ll resent successful people more than if I spent a week productive.
To your point of internet and social media increasing the spectrum of success, I definitely think music industry is a great example of that.
> seeing people gain small degrees of fame and notoriety
Small point: "notoriety" is negative (the noun form of "notorious"). Its opposite is "renown". Both notorious and celebrated people are famous and carry, respectively, notoriety or renown.
(I keep seeing this and am hoping "notoriety" will not become an accepted alternative for "renown".)
Small point: "notoriety" is negative (the noun form of "notorious"). Its opposite is "renown". Both notorious and celebrated people are famous and carry, respectively, notoriety or renown.
(I keep seeing this and am hoping "notoriety" will not become an accepted alternative for "renown".)
Personally, I feel like I struggle with this a lot. Whether it be reading on here, or seeing it in the news, it is hard to not compare myself to a 20-something year old who just sold his/her company for hundreds of thousands of dollars while I sit around reading the stupid article and playing Dota or starting my millionth side project. It is easy to see that not everyone is going to do something like that, but I think it is really hard to internalize the fact that I am the one not doing that too.
Then I get into this "well, won't be me anyway, so why bother" mood where I accomplish even less with my free time. I have urge to do more, but it is a vicious cycle sometimes.
Then I get into this "well, won't be me anyway, so why bother" mood where I accomplish even less with my free time. I have urge to do more, but it is a vicious cycle sometimes.
This made me think back to something I once attended, an eye opening weekend cross cultural course, with the purpose of getting to know the different nationalities I worked with. Why they/we would act/speak/behave as we do. We were a full ball room with multiple nationalities.
One of the speaks was about how different north is from the south, even within a country. Also, a huge difference was between Europe and US. Europe being a very old continent, lots of history and US a fairly new one, just a couple of hundred years old. The speaker said youths in US and Europe had been asked about whether they believed they would become millionaires during their life. About 90% in US had said yes vs. about 9% in Europe. The long statistics in Europe and fact that not so many will succeed had made us more realistic, but this new conquer-spirit that started US a long time ago, was still there.
One of the speaks was about how different north is from the south, even within a country. Also, a huge difference was between Europe and US. Europe being a very old continent, lots of history and US a fairly new one, just a couple of hundred years old. The speaker said youths in US and Europe had been asked about whether they believed they would become millionaires during their life. About 90% in US had said yes vs. about 9% in Europe. The long statistics in Europe and fact that not so many will succeed had made us more realistic, but this new conquer-spirit that started US a long time ago, was still there.
That's one way to look at it. The other way to look at is is that it takes more than a couple hundred years to shake off the expectations of societies with fairly rigid class systems.
Any plumber (or other blue collar tradesman who is in business for themselves) at the end of their career can have a million bucks in assets. A house, maybe a vacation house on a lake, a fleet of <10 cube vans that ranges from clapped out to brand new, it's not hard for that to add up to a million bucks in personally owned assets. What most people will never have is a million bucks in their checking account.
Any plumber (or other blue collar tradesman who is in business for themselves) at the end of their career can have a million bucks in assets. A house, maybe a vacation house on a lake, a fleet of <10 cube vans that ranges from clapped out to brand new, it's not hard for that to add up to a million bucks in personally owned assets. What most people will never have is a million bucks in their checking account.
Wow. Very well said, especially the part about "internalizing the fact that I am the one not doing that too." That resonated with me in a painful, aching way.
I'm turning 30 soon. That is by no means "old", but it also isn't "young." And I also made a minefield of my 20s, to the point where I'm worse off today than I was when I turned 20--a constant series of bad decisions over and over again.
The good thing is I'm trying to recover from all of it now and fix what I can fix, but the bad thing is that I'm seeing my friends and peers leap past me, people who I was competitive with all the way into college. I know it's not helpful to think like this, but I can't help it. We journey on.
I'm turning 30 soon. That is by no means "old", but it also isn't "young." And I also made a minefield of my 20s, to the point where I'm worse off today than I was when I turned 20--a constant series of bad decisions over and over again.
The good thing is I'm trying to recover from all of it now and fix what I can fix, but the bad thing is that I'm seeing my friends and peers leap past me, people who I was competitive with all the way into college. I know it's not helpful to think like this, but I can't help it. We journey on.
The idea you are not doing enough, or that you are not enough spans generations, gender, race and class.
I think it has to do with loneliness so many complain about. When being social is seen as waste of time useless thing, people dont socialize except in work. And that has consequences precisedly when yoi need friend the most or when work is highly competitive.
Or when you find yourself between jobs.
I love life. I'm 37.
Being alive in itself is truly remarkable. I've made great friends. I've met people who ended up disappointing me greatly. I've married a smart, beautiful, ambitious woman twelve years ago. We've went through exhilarating ups and soulcrushing downs.
I've worked for a startup, which almost went under several times. I've worked for a corporate thresher which sucked life right out of me.
I've worked on niche projects in my spare time, which so far have amounted to nothing.
I've had panic attacks. I've experienced months of mania and perceived greatness.
Life is a present which keeps on giving. I'm grateful. Accomplishments are a matter of perception, experience in itself is utterly exhilarating to me.
I love life. I'm 37.
Being alive in itself is truly remarkable. I've made great friends. I've met people who ended up disappointing me greatly. I've married a smart, beautiful, ambitious woman twelve years ago. We've went through exhilarating ups and soulcrushing downs.
I've worked for a startup, which almost went under several times. I've worked for a corporate thresher which sucked life right out of me.
I've worked on niche projects in my spare time, which so far have amounted to nothing.
I've had panic attacks. I've experienced months of mania and perceived greatness.
Life is a present which keeps on giving. I'm grateful. Accomplishments are a matter of perception, experience in itself is utterly exhilarating to me.
I love life. I'm 37.
This needs more upvotes. Life really should be about what you spend your time doing, not letting it waste away, not living for achievements, nor comparing ourselves to others, others from completely different worlds, but really making the most of the short time we have, whatever it is we are doing - having fun, doing work, taking a break, living life.
>I've experienced months of mania and perceived greatness.
That hit hard amigo! Nicely written post.
That hit hard amigo! Nicely written post.
> I've married a smart, beautiful, ambitious woman twelve years ago. We've went through exhilarating ups and soulcrushing downs.
this is the biggest part of my life that is missing. life is almost not worth living without it.
this is the biggest part of my life that is missing. life is almost not worth living without it.
This is the best thing I've read today. Thank you. :)
Thank you, I would love to read your perspective if you feel like sharing!
I documented my perspectives a while ago here: https://vishnu.tech/posts/surviving-depression/
Beautiful
This resonates a lot.
One of the greatest realizations I've had is that there really is no other time than the present. The future never is, neither the past, it's only the present. So, if all we have and can interact with time-wise is the present moment, then everything you can actually do can only be done at each particular now.
So, if you want to learn French, or Lisp, or riding a dirt bike, you can only ever actually do it, at some particular now. The trick then is to try and make sure somehow that for each particular now, you always have a clear idea of what it is that you should be doing. Otherwise you risk falling into the procrastination trap that can last as long as ones lifetime, as the article brilliantly demonstrates.
One of the greatest realizations I've had is that there really is no other time than the present. The future never is, neither the past, it's only the present. So, if all we have and can interact with time-wise is the present moment, then everything you can actually do can only be done at each particular now.
So, if you want to learn French, or Lisp, or riding a dirt bike, you can only ever actually do it, at some particular now. The trick then is to try and make sure somehow that for each particular now, you always have a clear idea of what it is that you should be doing. Otherwise you risk falling into the procrastination trap that can last as long as ones lifetime, as the article brilliantly demonstrates.
I think the trick is not doing things now for a better future... but to enjoy now more. If enjoying now means playing a video game, or walking the dog, or bing watching Netflix.. that's completely fine.
We should LIVE more in the now... not try to make the future you more happy. but the current you.
If that is working hard and learning and trying to become rich, if that makes you happy that's fine too.
What makes me happy is family, friends, seeing the world and building and learning about technology and playing with synthesizers... enjoy the current moment. ;-)
We should LIVE more in the now... not try to make the future you more happy. but the current you.
If that is working hard and learning and trying to become rich, if that makes you happy that's fine too.
What makes me happy is family, friends, seeing the world and building and learning about technology and playing with synthesizers... enjoy the current moment. ;-)
'Here' and 'Now' as the characters in 'The Angel In The Clock', a cartoon movie to raise money to fight Cancer.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_angel_in_the_clock
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_angel_in_the_clock
You pretty much summarised “the power of now” by Eckhart Tolle.
Haven't read it. Should I?
From Taleb's "Antifragile":
"Abundance is harder for us to handle than scarcity.If tired after an intercontinental flight, go to the gym for some exertion instead of resting. Also, it is a well known trick that if you need something urgently done, give the task to the busiest (or second busiest) person in the office. Most humans manage to squander their free time, as free time makes them dysfunctional, lazy, and unmotivated - the busier they get, the more active they are at other tasks."
"Abundance is harder for us to handle than scarcity.If tired after an intercontinental flight, go to the gym for some exertion instead of resting. Also, it is a well known trick that if you need something urgently done, give the task to the busiest (or second busiest) person in the office. Most humans manage to squander their free time, as free time makes them dysfunctional, lazy, and unmotivated - the busier they get, the more active they are at other tasks."
> the busier they get, the more active they are at other tasks.
Wow does that ever ring true for me right now...
Over the last couple of months I've had some major work items at about 80% complete but just couldn't find the motivation to push them over the line. I'd have free time but I'd always waste it.
A couple weeks ago, an exec came to me and a couple of colleagues and asked us for a major assignment to be complete in two weeks. At first I balked but after thinking it through I saw an obvious path and bore down.
The work was fast and furious and with the deadline looming I put in late nights and used all my free time to get the work done.
It was incredibly satisfying!
But a weird thing happened: I suddenly got motivated to finish those other assignments and knocked off a number of them in short order.
Somehow I've gotten back into the mental headspace of just knocking tasks off my to-do list and I find the momentum keeps me going. I always knew that about myself--my productivity has always been very spikey--but this experience was truly eye opening.
Wow does that ever ring true for me right now...
Over the last couple of months I've had some major work items at about 80% complete but just couldn't find the motivation to push them over the line. I'd have free time but I'd always waste it.
A couple weeks ago, an exec came to me and a couple of colleagues and asked us for a major assignment to be complete in two weeks. At first I balked but after thinking it through I saw an obvious path and bore down.
The work was fast and furious and with the deadline looming I put in late nights and used all my free time to get the work done.
It was incredibly satisfying!
But a weird thing happened: I suddenly got motivated to finish those other assignments and knocked off a number of them in short order.
Somehow I've gotten back into the mental headspace of just knocking tasks off my to-do list and I find the momentum keeps me going. I always knew that about myself--my productivity has always been very spikey--but this experience was truly eye opening.
> the busier they get, the more active they are at other tasks.
Not at all my experience. I hate not feeling unproductive and so spend almost 100% of my free time programming open source projects. But I seem to be unable to care about anything else, and there are long periods of time where I cabnot bring myself to do anything else besides keep working on these projects until 2 in the morning - so-called hyperfocus. As a result I keep feeling exhausted when it comes to anything besides working on said projects, and the first thing I do when not thinking of anything is to gravitate back to them at the expense of everything else. The most trivial things like cleaning my room or even eating a proper lunch become an unbearable slog if I'm in the middle of something important, and sometimes I just skip over them entirely.
I believe this is making me a shallow person because I have no understanding of literally anything else, and is also keeping me in this bubble where there's so much more to life which would be fulfilling that I will never see, but at the same time I just can't bring myself to care about much else that isn't a productive activity. I can't have it both ways, even though I constantly say I should be doing things that aren't productive like playing video games or watching television, and then shoot them down immediately because I feel like I'm not creating anything. I will tell myself that those are the kind of things that humanity usually squanders its free time on, and that I'm not about to fall into that trap.
In the example, if someone gave me that paper to fill out while I was busy and I don't care about filling out the paper, I wouldn't fill out the paper. Not unless my paycheck and continued survival depend on it.
It does not feel like I chose my hobbies, it feels like they chose me.
Not at all my experience. I hate not feeling unproductive and so spend almost 100% of my free time programming open source projects. But I seem to be unable to care about anything else, and there are long periods of time where I cabnot bring myself to do anything else besides keep working on these projects until 2 in the morning - so-called hyperfocus. As a result I keep feeling exhausted when it comes to anything besides working on said projects, and the first thing I do when not thinking of anything is to gravitate back to them at the expense of everything else. The most trivial things like cleaning my room or even eating a proper lunch become an unbearable slog if I'm in the middle of something important, and sometimes I just skip over them entirely.
I believe this is making me a shallow person because I have no understanding of literally anything else, and is also keeping me in this bubble where there's so much more to life which would be fulfilling that I will never see, but at the same time I just can't bring myself to care about much else that isn't a productive activity. I can't have it both ways, even though I constantly say I should be doing things that aren't productive like playing video games or watching television, and then shoot them down immediately because I feel like I'm not creating anything. I will tell myself that those are the kind of things that humanity usually squanders its free time on, and that I'm not about to fall into that trap.
In the example, if someone gave me that paper to fill out while I was busy and I don't care about filling out the paper, I wouldn't fill out the paper. Not unless my paycheck and continued survival depend on it.
It does not feel like I chose my hobbies, it feels like they chose me.
> the busier they get, the more active they are at other tasks
In my experience, there's a limit to that. If being busy doing tasks gives you regular rewards (and I mean daily, not a monthly paycheck), and you trust yourself to keep the rhythm, then it seems to work. But if you lose the momentum, get swamped in tasks you hate with no clear way out - that's a fast track to complete burnout. Been there, done that, and I like to feel I've finally recovered after many years, but sometimes I'm not so sure.
In my experience, there's a limit to that. If being busy doing tasks gives you regular rewards (and I mean daily, not a monthly paycheck), and you trust yourself to keep the rhythm, then it seems to work. But if you lose the momentum, get swamped in tasks you hate with no clear way out - that's a fast track to complete burnout. Been there, done that, and I like to feel I've finally recovered after many years, but sometimes I'm not so sure.
> If tired after an intercontinental flight, go to the gym for some exertion instead of resting.
Personally, I think I’d rather take a 20 minute nap and then go to the gym.
Personally, I think I’d rather take a 20 minute nap and then go to the gym.
I'm 35.
When I look at the people I follow on social media, I feel bad, because they're much nore successful than me, often even much younger too.
When I look at the people I meet in my daily life, I'm doing quite okay.
I haven't set an alarm for work in years, can buy what I want without too much consideration, mostly work when I feel like it, and the work I do is often interesting.
When I look at the people I follow on social media, I feel bad, because they're much nore successful than me, often even much younger too.
When I look at the people I meet in my daily life, I'm doing quite okay.
I haven't set an alarm for work in years, can buy what I want without too much consideration, mostly work when I feel like it, and the work I do is often interesting.
Hey there -- I had my come to Jesus moment (aka gtfo) with Social Media when I realized that people I didn't even know and care about were evoking feelings of shame, guilt, and/or anger within me.
And then I left.
Read your comment. You're fine! You're more than fine! To thine oneself be true.
And then I left.
Read your comment. You're fine! You're more than fine! To thine oneself be true.
Thank you.
No offense but why are you on social media at all lol.
>I haven't set an alarm for work in years, can buy what I want without too much consideration, mostly work when I feel like it, and the work I do is often interesting.
You are doing better than 99% of people who have ever lived!
>I haven't set an alarm for work in years, can buy what I want without too much consideration, mostly work when I feel like it, and the work I do is often interesting.
You are doing better than 99% of people who have ever lived!
And what kind of success do you think those younger people on social media have? Can you give an example of what you look at? Is that success something you want?
Don't know really.
They got thousands of followers, people actually engage with them, their opinions are valued, etc.
They got thousands of followers, people actually engage with them, their opinions are valued, etc.
Ah yeah opinions being valued is a good one
I dabbled in thought leadership for a while, with a PR agent, and its nice to have a voice and really awesome google results but I didn’t/don't like being considered like a journalist on rare occasion
In unrelated anonymous profiles (lifestyle/wealth/meme/model pages) I have used followers and engagement as currency. As in used to obtain goods and services. Its great because you never spend it and it works worldwide.
But I prefer just having access to experiences without undermining my ability to obtain goods and services, food and shelter in the future. I mostly have that, and there is very little limitations I will consider in achieving that. It sounds like you have that.
I dabbled in thought leadership for a while, with a PR agent, and its nice to have a voice and really awesome google results but I didn’t/don't like being considered like a journalist on rare occasion
In unrelated anonymous profiles (lifestyle/wealth/meme/model pages) I have used followers and engagement as currency. As in used to obtain goods and services. Its great because you never spend it and it works worldwide.
But I prefer just having access to experiences without undermining my ability to obtain goods and services, food and shelter in the future. I mostly have that, and there is very little limitations I will consider in achieving that. It sounds like you have that.
The "success" that you see on social media is probably exaggerated at any rate.
It's not necessarily even exaggeration as much as selection bias. If you have enough "friends" on social media, statistically every other day one of them will post something they're proud/happy about, making your feed a constant stream of other people's "success". But the brain is having a hard time dividing these streams by the number of people in your feed; it feels as if it was a small group of people who have it all.
Here's what's astounding to me: scrolling through the responses here on HN shows an almost total focus on money and career. I read the piece and thought about life and personal ambition. That's kinda interesting.
Anyway, fwiw: I'm 47, living by the sea in the most beautiful bit of the UK, and running a successful micro business which works with non profits.
I've deliberately chosen a path over the last decade which is about family, and I say no to any business which would cause high levels of stress, no matter how lucrative. I only work with people I like. I say no to lots of work. I've deliberately taken the choice to not grow staff or move into an office, even though we have the financials and potential to do so.
Why? Because life is about more than work. I've got two teenage kids. I see them for hours every day (not 20 minutes which I read recently is the average US dad daily contact time with his kids). I get to surf with them, to eat with them, to be with my wife, to read, to play piano and do hobbies.
Do I put some money aside? Yes, a bit. Is it enough? Who knows, and who cares. I'll work until I'm 90 if I have to so I can continue to have this quality of life with my family and the environment around me.
I'm incredibly, incredibly lucky - there's no doubt I've had a great path through life so far. But if I'm able to offer advice now it appears I'm an old git (and yes, the speed with which life happens is as per the article, it's terrifying!) - it's this: live your life. Live it and be poor. Take every single chance you can to be with your friends and family. Say yes to work that makes you happy. If it doesn't, find something else. In your 20's you'll want to eat the world. Do it, while you have the energy and appetite, but know that when you get older your tastes are going to change. Slow down, and accept that most of the best things in life aren't work, aren't money, and don't require either to create meaning.
Be in your life.
Anyway, fwiw: I'm 47, living by the sea in the most beautiful bit of the UK, and running a successful micro business which works with non profits.
I've deliberately chosen a path over the last decade which is about family, and I say no to any business which would cause high levels of stress, no matter how lucrative. I only work with people I like. I say no to lots of work. I've deliberately taken the choice to not grow staff or move into an office, even though we have the financials and potential to do so.
Why? Because life is about more than work. I've got two teenage kids. I see them for hours every day (not 20 minutes which I read recently is the average US dad daily contact time with his kids). I get to surf with them, to eat with them, to be with my wife, to read, to play piano and do hobbies.
Do I put some money aside? Yes, a bit. Is it enough? Who knows, and who cares. I'll work until I'm 90 if I have to so I can continue to have this quality of life with my family and the environment around me.
I'm incredibly, incredibly lucky - there's no doubt I've had a great path through life so far. But if I'm able to offer advice now it appears I'm an old git (and yes, the speed with which life happens is as per the article, it's terrifying!) - it's this: live your life. Live it and be poor. Take every single chance you can to be with your friends and family. Say yes to work that makes you happy. If it doesn't, find something else. In your 20's you'll want to eat the world. Do it, while you have the energy and appetite, but know that when you get older your tastes are going to change. Slow down, and accept that most of the best things in life aren't work, aren't money, and don't require either to create meaning.
Be in your life.
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You are too optimistic for a man in a world ruled by populists and monopolies. And environment around you is changing. You still may enjoy it, will your children have that possibility?
It sounds like they're doing all they can to ensure their kids enjoy it. Sure, the world might be very different in 15 years time, but there's almost nothing they can do about that. Assuming they have enough money to get by, it sounds like he's spending time with them, which is the most likely thing that their kids will miss when the world changes.
I think there's a cultural aspect at play.
I come from a place where success is measured more by the amount of experiences you've lived and the fun you've had, then the money you've made or the social status you've achieved.
I like to use New Orleans motto as a way to describe it: Big Easy.
A good life is one that was easy going, lade back, where you've enjoyed the company of others, where you've explored the wonders of the world, and that's that.
It's the opposite mentality of: "What's my purpose?". You're not here to do anything, you're here to enjoy your stay. You're not here to make things, you're here to enjoy what's already there.
The irony is that adopting this mindset and living this way is actually surprisingly hard. Seems the body naturally leans towards anxiety, like we've maintained in our DNA fears from our evolution, constantly looking behind our shoulder, feeling the need to get on with it, be on top of things, etc.
Anyway, I am having the opposite reaction. I feel like getting closer to my 35, I feel like I've done everything. Accomplished all things that mattered, and like there's nothing more to do, now it's just routine and repetition. I've been there done that, seen everything, tried everything, so I don't get that excitement out of "undiscovered territories" anymore. And I'm working to adapt to this, be happy with the mondaine.
I come from a place where success is measured more by the amount of experiences you've lived and the fun you've had, then the money you've made or the social status you've achieved.
I like to use New Orleans motto as a way to describe it: Big Easy.
A good life is one that was easy going, lade back, where you've enjoyed the company of others, where you've explored the wonders of the world, and that's that.
It's the opposite mentality of: "What's my purpose?". You're not here to do anything, you're here to enjoy your stay. You're not here to make things, you're here to enjoy what's already there.
The irony is that adopting this mindset and living this way is actually surprisingly hard. Seems the body naturally leans towards anxiety, like we've maintained in our DNA fears from our evolution, constantly looking behind our shoulder, feeling the need to get on with it, be on top of things, etc.
Anyway, I am having the opposite reaction. I feel like getting closer to my 35, I feel like I've done everything. Accomplished all things that mattered, and like there's nothing more to do, now it's just routine and repetition. I've been there done that, seen everything, tried everything, so I don't get that excitement out of "undiscovered territories" anymore. And I'm working to adapt to this, be happy with the mondaine.
I'm pleased I'm not the only one! I'm 35 shortly and I feel very content with what I have done so far. Here on out feels like icing on the cake.
I always found the "what's the meaning of life?" question to be a nonsense one. I suspect encountering The Hitchikers Guide To The Galaxy at a young age was part of the reason for that. There is so clearly no reason other than to enjoy it as much as you can. But I thin most of it is likely down to having parents that loved me unconditionally regardless of my achievements (which actually seems to be rare).
Do what makes you happy, let boredom be a motivator.
PS. Related comment of mine from a while back: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23061260
I always found the "what's the meaning of life?" question to be a nonsense one. I suspect encountering The Hitchikers Guide To The Galaxy at a young age was part of the reason for that. There is so clearly no reason other than to enjoy it as much as you can. But I thin most of it is likely down to having parents that loved me unconditionally regardless of my achievements (which actually seems to be rare).
Do what makes you happy, let boredom be a motivator.
PS. Related comment of mine from a while back: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23061260
One key to a good life is low expectations. Most of the people I know who are unhappy thought they were going to be more than they are now, and some of them carried the naive arrogance around with them all their lives until reality smacked them upside the head.
I really like Happiness = Reality - Expectations.
Advocating for low expectations is usually criticized as laziness when targeted at oneself or pessimism when targeted at others. But I think that criticism happens when we conflate expectations and aspirations, when we set our target as our baseline.
On that note, exercising gratitude (counting your blessings) is a wonderful tool for teasing apart expectations and aspirations. Acknowledging that something you have is good enough to make you happy implicitly informs you that expectations have already been exceeded even if you aspire for more.
Advocating for low expectations is usually criticized as laziness when targeted at oneself or pessimism when targeted at others. But I think that criticism happens when we conflate expectations and aspirations, when we set our target as our baseline.
On that note, exercising gratitude (counting your blessings) is a wonderful tool for teasing apart expectations and aspirations. Acknowledging that something you have is good enough to make you happy implicitly informs you that expectations have already been exceeded even if you aspire for more.
This is key. I would recommend anyone to go to a poorer area in the world and meet the locals... they value things you take for granted so much more.
It made me value things I take for granted much more... like running water... or streets that don't stink like trash... family... I took them for granted.
It made me value things I take for granted much more... like running water... or streets that don't stink like trash... family... I took them for granted.
I don't know you but apparently you know me.
There is a difference between arrogance and dissatisfaction.
I will attribute _most_ of my successes to the latter and all of my failures to the former.
But how do you develop this kind of mindset?
Accomplishments should serve self-esteem. I want to be proud of what I did. You really only need one endeavor, and it doesn’t need to make money. It matters not whether your accomplishments are numerous or lucrative, but that your accomplishments make you feel good about yourself.
Where people lose their way is playing games they can’t win, or that they aren’t proud of. A common example is a career doing work you’re not proud of, that you get no respect for. You may “win” but you don’t feel any better. Or you spread yourself too thin preventing any meaningful accomplishment.
When I was a 9-5 software engineer I had low self-esteem. I was making great money, had a good job, but we weren’t creating software I was proud of. Meanwhile, I fell in love with and mastered a sport outside of work. The pride of mastering something I and others cared about and respected made me feel better than I ever did at my job. I realized then I should be chasing accomplishments that I can be proud of. That I should focus on doing less, and only doing what I derive my self-esteem from. I realized I didn’t need a fancy career or lots of money, I needed to do something I was a proud of.
I think a lot of people are doing something they really don’t care about, and justifying it to themselves because it’s lucrative, or a “good” job, or other people tell them to be proud of it but they personally aren’t.
Where people lose their way is playing games they can’t win, or that they aren’t proud of. A common example is a career doing work you’re not proud of, that you get no respect for. You may “win” but you don’t feel any better. Or you spread yourself too thin preventing any meaningful accomplishment.
When I was a 9-5 software engineer I had low self-esteem. I was making great money, had a good job, but we weren’t creating software I was proud of. Meanwhile, I fell in love with and mastered a sport outside of work. The pride of mastering something I and others cared about and respected made me feel better than I ever did at my job. I realized then I should be chasing accomplishments that I can be proud of. That I should focus on doing less, and only doing what I derive my self-esteem from. I realized I didn’t need a fancy career or lots of money, I needed to do something I was a proud of.
I think a lot of people are doing something they really don’t care about, and justifying it to themselves because it’s lucrative, or a “good” job, or other people tell them to be proud of it but they personally aren’t.
This essay expresses the futility of ambition against distraction as well as the unproductive cycle of comparing yourself to others as a means of understanding your potential. I have certainly felt this way, and I imagine many do.
I take comfort in the idea that the world (and our lives) are constantly rocked by random circumstance and opportunity, and while there is a lot one can do to maximize our realized potential, we can't be completely responsible for our fulfillment.
I take comfort in the idea that the world (and our lives) are constantly rocked by random circumstance and opportunity, and while there is a lot one can do to maximize our realized potential, we can't be completely responsible for our fulfillment.
You’re saying that comparison steals us of the natural energy of curiosity and “just doing it”?
Succinctly put! I can't count the number of times I've considered starting a project or something and thought "Nah, those guys did it better, I'll never be that good, what's the point..."
Or: why we spend too much time focused on goals and accomplishments instead of effort, perseverance, and the joy of the journey.
Or: why we spend too much time focused on goals and accomplishments instead of effort, perseverance, and the joy of the journey.
Yup.
Actually for me it’s mainly the fear of doing something trite, that’s already been done a million times. I always think “oh what’s the point, this has been done before”.
But I’m starting to think that everybody hits that stage. People great at what they do hit it, keep pushing out of either strong will or just curiosity, and end up making it (or a facet of it) their own.
Actually for me it’s mainly the fear of doing something trite, that’s already been done a million times. I always think “oh what’s the point, this has been done before”.
But I’m starting to think that everybody hits that stage. People great at what they do hit it, keep pushing out of either strong will or just curiosity, and end up making it (or a facet of it) their own.
We recently had a big wind storm. Trees down everywhere, power went out. Fine, whatever, start the generator and it's back to being Tuesday.
Wasn't just the power, also Comcast. Fine, whatever, tether to my phone. Wait, no service. Cell tower was out too.
Had no internet at all for four days. I think I got more done in that time with a flashlight and pen and paper than I do in a typical month.
Wasn't just the power, also Comcast. Fine, whatever, tether to my phone. Wait, no service. Cell tower was out too.
Had no internet at all for four days. I think I got more done in that time with a flashlight and pen and paper than I do in a typical month.
What kinds of stuff did you accomplish? I do most work on the computer, with the internet, so just wondering what I could do if I had neither that was still productive for that type of work, like for example programming.
This is so true. I have a difficult love/hate relationship with technology, and the internet in particular. Life is so much more social and in some ways enjoyable when the power is out. And yet I wouldn’t have my career or so much of my life without the internet.
It’s difficult for me to imagine what it was like for people who grew up and worked their whole career without it, but I imagine that a much larger percentage of their working relationships and friendships were (by necessity) face to face, and by comparison richer and deeper than the mostly online connections I’ve grown up with.
It’s difficult for me to imagine what it was like for people who grew up and worked their whole career without it, but I imagine that a much larger percentage of their working relationships and friendships were (by necessity) face to face, and by comparison richer and deeper than the mostly online connections I’ve grown up with.
For me, thinking about what I didn't accomplish today is the first step on a short road to depression. Better questions to ask are:
1. Did I see or hear something beautiful.
2. Did I eat or drink something that nourished my body?
3. Did I have a thought that buoyed my spirits?
4. Did I have a pleasant interaction with a fellow human/animal?
5. Did I help someone?
Journey before destination and all that.
I'm not a great person and I have chosen not to aspire to do great things, though I admire people who do. I aspire to an ordinary life lived in contentment. One where I bring some good into the lives of people around me.
Journey before destination and all that.
I'm not a great person and I have chosen not to aspire to do great things, though I admire people who do. I aspire to an ordinary life lived in contentment. One where I bring some good into the lives of people around me.
If only more people had this life philosophy...
Funniest thing I read all day. But coincidentally I was reading this book earlier called Chasing dalylight. For those who don't know, it was written by the ex-CEO of KPMG and how he spent his life doing things like taking 36 hour flights from NY to Australia just to get 30 minute facetime with someone (iirc) and he was hoping to retire peacefully with all his money when he was diagnosed with brain cancer and given 5 months to live.
Really interesting book about how we waste away our present for future that we may never get.
Really interesting book about how we waste away our present for future that we may never get.
I've been thinking a lot lately about a line from the movie Master and Commander, a euology (though perhaps not much 'eu' about it) for a dead character.
"The simple truth is, not all of us become the men we once hoped we might be"
Spoken by a character who very much has. I don't really have much comment beyond that.
"The simple truth is, not all of us become the men we once hoped we might be"
Spoken by a character who very much has. I don't really have much comment beyond that.
Well yeah, good movie.
The simple truth is almost all of us short fall of what we wanted to be in some ways.
I used to read the New Yorker, years ago, I don't know what changed, me or them. Much of what they publish now comes across as self-pity, I don't have time in my life for that.
Same as McSweeney's, I used to read it and I thought it was funny and now I read it and it comes across as self-pity.
Give me decorative gourd season any time, but pieces where people complain about the things they haven't done aren't worth my time.
Something new, please.
Same as McSweeney's, I used to read it and I thought it was funny and now I read it and it comes across as self-pity.
Give me decorative gourd season any time, but pieces where people complain about the things they haven't done aren't worth my time.
Something new, please.
If you haven't read the article, you're hitting on the tongue-and-cheek-ness of it.
I read the article.
Nope.
Nope.
“Nope” as in you don’t understand the tongue-in-cheek or because you refuse to acknowledge it because you don’t find the bit interesting?
I know that this is a genre of American millennial/Gen X mid-life crisis clickbait, but it reminds me a lot of journal entries I wrote when I was not very invested in the present moment. I'd either look forward into the future or backwards into the past. But eventually I got tired of doing that, of measuring accomplishments, of basically robbing myself of the joy of experiencing life. Some of this can be attributed to time and life experience. Some of it maybe can be attributed to me not handling American cities so well.
The most important change started when I began to travel. Just spending a bit of time in Europe showed this neurotic American with overachiever tendencies so much about how to relax and live a little. It was a complete shock to the system, and in a very good way. It forced me to address -- at that moment -- how would I live life and enjoy it if I didn't have my career and "accomplishments" and lived in a society where most people derive fulfillment outside of that? I began to realize that my life was full of many proverbial Michelin-star rated meals that I was wolfing down like a burger -- that's no way to go about things!
Being back stateside, I guess I appreciate that even more because I once again recognize how very much abnormal that is in much of the country. I have to catch myself because it's so easy to slip back into keeping up with Jones who live inside my head.
The most important change started when I began to travel. Just spending a bit of time in Europe showed this neurotic American with overachiever tendencies so much about how to relax and live a little. It was a complete shock to the system, and in a very good way. It forced me to address -- at that moment -- how would I live life and enjoy it if I didn't have my career and "accomplishments" and lived in a society where most people derive fulfillment outside of that? I began to realize that my life was full of many proverbial Michelin-star rated meals that I was wolfing down like a burger -- that's no way to go about things!
Being back stateside, I guess I appreciate that even more because I once again recognize how very much abnormal that is in much of the country. I have to catch myself because it's so easy to slip back into keeping up with Jones who live inside my head.
It seems really bad that I relate to parts of this even though I am still not 25.
I mean things are good with me, I am grateful for everything I have. But once in a while I just feel really empty and that I could be doing way more that I am doing right now rather than lazing around. We are a weird generation for sure ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I definitely am in the same boat as you. My day to day life is great - good job, financially stable, good relationship, even play in a couple bands (when there's not a pandemic inhibiting us from peforming).
But there constantly feels like something is missing. Most days I have 4-6 hours of time that is spent doing near nothing. In the back of my mind is always "I should be doing x project" or "I should be practicing y skill" and then I end up feeling guilty just for relaxing.
I always go back and forth between "It's totally okay to be lazy. You have a life that affords it." and "If you want to be truly great at something, you need to work for it." The challenging part seems to be finding the healthy medium between the two, which is about where the author feels too, I think.
But there constantly feels like something is missing. Most days I have 4-6 hours of time that is spent doing near nothing. In the back of my mind is always "I should be doing x project" or "I should be practicing y skill" and then I end up feeling guilty just for relaxing.
I always go back and forth between "It's totally okay to be lazy. You have a life that affords it." and "If you want to be truly great at something, you need to work for it." The challenging part seems to be finding the healthy medium between the two, which is about where the author feels too, I think.
You need to relax. Don’t burn out
This is amusing. But I wonder when it was that using curse like "fuck" became acceptable in publications like The New Yorker. I feel like it must have been in the last 10 years. Maybe fewer, like the last 4 or 5. I still don't approve. Of course if they are used just like any other words, then their taboo shine diminishes, and then the difference doesn't mean anything. Language is like that. But there has been a shift.
Yes, I do agree, use of the word feels lazy, poor form. There are trendy stand up comedians and trendy authors who base their entire brand on the use of the word. It is a desperate fall back position.
I'm in my 50's and I read less now, it's because writers are now younger than me and they tell stories I've already lived. I suspect all older folk might feel the same? Writing is for the young? Being published is for the young?
That's the time when you switch to reading dead authors, who are blessed by the wisdom given to those with us no more.
Authors your age are still writing. Highly recommended:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/08/24/cicadia
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/08/24/cicadia
That story is about teenagers, which kind of reinforces the GP's point. It's good though!
This highly depends on the genre of what you read of course. I suppose you haven't lived a "space opera" no matter what your age is. :-)
Plutarch tells the story of a roman quaestor who, at age 31 came upon a statue of Alexander the Great and wept, for at the same age Alexander had forged an empire while he had accomplished nothing. That quaestor was Julius Caesar.
I'll print this out and frame it, to read as I listen to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taupuK6oND4.
And I'm not being that sarcastic here. In the sense of what Plutarch wrote, Elon Musk does make me sad. I suppose every one of us can find someone who's miles ahead in achieving the same dreams as one has.
And I'm not being that sarcastic here. In the sense of what Plutarch wrote, Elon Musk does make me sad. I suppose every one of us can find someone who's miles ahead in achieving the same dreams as one has.
https://github.com/golang/go/blob/dev.go2go/src/cmd/go2go/te...
A general question. Is there a reason to add those arguments instead of just using them directly inside the goroutine and so passing the arguments implicitly?
A general question. Is there a reason to add those arguments instead of just using them directly inside the goroutine and so passing the arguments implicitly?
I think you posted this comment on the wrong post, but anyway:
In this case, no, and it's actually slightly inefficient to pass those variables as arguments, because a copy of the argument has to be made. This copying matters more if the argument is a big struct or another large value.
However often it is useful to use arguments, for example when calling a goroutine in a loop. For example:
Something like
In this case, no, and it's actually slightly inefficient to pass those variables as arguments, because a copy of the argument has to be made. This copying matters more if the argument is a big struct or another large value.
However often it is useful to use arguments, for example when calling a goroutine in a loop. For example:
for i := 0; i < 10; i++ {
go func() {
fmt.Println(i)
}()
}
for i := 0; i < 10; i++ {
go func(i int) {
fmt.Println(i)
}(i)
}
Something like
for i := 0; i < 10; i++ {
i := i
go func() {
fmt.Println(i)
}()
}
Ah I didnt realize I had the wrong post open, it was supposed to be on the Go Generics examples post. Thank you that makes sense!
I read this and remembered a plan I had journaled when I was 30 years old. I was working in a stratified IT department that I liked pretty well and had mapped out a plan to be at director level by age 40. I left that organization at age 33, took a short term position and then one I liked even better, putting me in a lead role that could have led to something director-like. Then the company laid off most of my team and I took off. Now I am in an individual contributor position again and have just turned 40. Many times, life works against plans and it's better not to get too attached to them. Other things are accomplished in the meantime that may not look like much but in the bigger scheme, are quite meaningful.
I just wanted to make it to the top of Hacker News. I submitted plenty of my projects, but none hit the mark.
So hopefully once before I turn 35 I have a project that makes it to the top. But if not, eh. I'll be al right.
Just like the dolphins in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
So hopefully once before I turn 35 I have a project that makes it to the top. But if not, eh. I'll be al right.
Just like the dolphins in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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I am constantly amazed at what caused progress in my life. Sometimes it is working to the bone. More often it is knowing when to press and when to let things breathe.
One of the most powerful lessons I’ve internalized in my life is that negotiations are often won in the silence between gambits, not in the offers themselves.
Sometimes letting things take the time they need makes them go faster than trying to rush.
One of the most powerful lessons I’ve internalized in my life is that negotiations are often won in the silence between gambits, not in the offers themselves.
Sometimes letting things take the time they need makes them go faster than trying to rush.
The malaise of the over-educated median person who has not yet come to terms with what they really are.
We are not productive for 2 reasons:
1. our methods of learning are wrong, we learn best by asking others and experimenting, not by reading reference texts or passively attending lectures.
2. we lack the skills and tools to get things done, especially in IT our tools are mostly junk and the skills required to do the job change continually.
If you disagree, tell me why artisans are so productive.
1. our methods of learning are wrong, we learn best by asking others and experimenting, not by reading reference texts or passively attending lectures.
2. we lack the skills and tools to get things done, especially in IT our tools are mostly junk and the skills required to do the job change continually.
If you disagree, tell me why artisans are so productive.
I recommend: On the shortness of life, by Seneca. I thought time management was a new problem because of the internet, hustle mentality, motivational porn, bill-gates comparison and whatnot. Here is a book written in the BC era for those struggling with just that.
You can aim to be the best at something, but you can settle at being good enough with the result.
You can aim to be the best at something, but you can settle at being good enough with the result.
It's funny to see this in The New Yorker, because I was under the impression that The New Yorker was an elite publication where all writers aspired to be published.
Perhaps this is supposed to be the joke, since the article is labeled as humor, but I don't think that being a writer, even in the New Yorker, has the same prestige nowadays that it used to have before media became "democratized", so the joke is actually quite sad.
Realistically, the author probably should have been smart enough to realize that careers in the arts are the domain of the idle rich, and learned how to code.
Perhaps this is supposed to be the joke, since the article is labeled as humor, but I don't think that being a writer, even in the New Yorker, has the same prestige nowadays that it used to have before media became "democratized", so the joke is actually quite sad.
Realistically, the author probably should have been smart enough to realize that careers in the arts are the domain of the idle rich, and learned how to code.
I'm a bit uncomfortable giving advice. I'm skeptical of the survivor bias that provides people on the cover of Fortune magazine the platform to opine about how to be a success. Nevertheless, I'd like to encourage others no matter their age to find a path in life that make them happy.
At 38, I started what became a very successful company; it ended up being publicly traded. I could just as easily have done the same thing at 48. Think, work hard, and know that you can recover from setbacks, in my opinion they are likely to be numerous.
One of my friends is very successful. He had to drop out of high school because it was too difficult for him, but he worked hard and learned as he worked and now runs his own large successful company. He's a great guy with a great family; from walking though his factory with him it's apparent that he likes and is liked by the people that work for him and with him. I wish I lived in a house as beautiful as his, but I don't begrudge him his success--he's an amazing guy that did it himself.
I sometimes wonder if it was just luck for me. Perhaps, but I didn't have some wonderful mentor or rich parents. I just decided that I would try different approaches until I built a happy life for myself.
At 38, I started what became a very successful company; it ended up being publicly traded. I could just as easily have done the same thing at 48. Think, work hard, and know that you can recover from setbacks, in my opinion they are likely to be numerous.
One of my friends is very successful. He had to drop out of high school because it was too difficult for him, but he worked hard and learned as he worked and now runs his own large successful company. He's a great guy with a great family; from walking though his factory with him it's apparent that he likes and is liked by the people that work for him and with him. I wish I lived in a house as beautiful as his, but I don't begrudge him his success--he's an amazing guy that did it himself.
I sometimes wonder if it was just luck for me. Perhaps, but I didn't have some wonderful mentor or rich parents. I just decided that I would try different approaches until I built a happy life for myself.
I am continually annoyed that I can’t compete with VC Funded startups with 20 to 50 employees in my spare time after work while maintaining a healthy social life.
As ridiculous as that sounds I mean that seriously. I can’t shake the feeling
As ridiculous as that sounds I mean that seriously. I can’t shake the feeling
Funny and all too familiar, especially during Covid. For a 700+ page take on this theme, check out The Magic Mountain by Thomas Mann. If you finish it, you'll at least feel like you accomplished something worthwhile.
If I had a day like this guy had, my personal neuroses would look to blame something external for my own malaise. I'd be blaming the 3 waffles (and the accompanying blood sugar spike/crash) as being the source of my lack of ambition. I'd eat a couple eggs the next day to see if that changed any thing.
“I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different.” —Kurt Vonnegut
I recently read an article on HN where someone mentioned that they saw a guy sitting on a bicycle just talking to a friend, he then lost his footing and hit his head on the ground and died.The commenter then wrote "We're just farts in the wind". Now I understand the reference!
There’s a difference between what you think you want and what you really want. I think people generally work toward what they really want. If you aren’t progressing toward your goals because you’re busy doing other things, you really want those other things more.
A writer is having a mid-life crisis?
Well you got published in the New Yorker, so there’s that.
Another note from the underground. The problem is, like Dostoesvky wrote through the mouth of the Undergound Man, the human requires pain and misery in his daily existence in order to have a default want-to-live or want-to-thrive instinct. The lack of misery will banish us to these endless ruminations of self-hate from our lack of desire to live like the "men of action" (Sanjay, in this case) we obssess about. My kids call it "FWP".
It's a tragedy that can be fixed by tragedy. Often the tragedy is self-inflicted. Just to want to live! on our own terms.
It's a mess.
It's a tragedy that can be fixed by tragedy. Often the tragedy is self-inflicted. Just to want to live! on our own terms.
It's a mess.
Man, hits home. 2020 is a bad year for 29, feel like the last of my twenties was stolen from me.
I have so many things I wanna do, always wanted to do. Some of it I got done! Like becoming an engineer, creating a decent career for myself, riding a motorcycle. Take a step back and look at my life and it's pretty much golden, I could coast for the remainder of it and live better than 99% of humankind throughout the ages.
But it's not enough of course, cause I'm human and it never is. I want to start a business. I want to read every philosophy book ever. I want to solve consciousness. I want to be fluent in chinese, japanese, french, spanish, know enough vietnamese to fuck with people when I'm there. I want to be a god tier engineer, one of those strings-together-unix-tools-on-a-whim types that turns around and shits out an android app after, I want to be able to do high level math, I want to understand and contribute to physics, I want to invent AI, I want to be good at chess, I want to be a decent music producer.
Jesus, look at that list. That's probably 25% of the things I really truly want for myself. Unrealistic? Probably. But am I living up to my potential right now? No. Absolutely not. If there's anything I've learned there's always another level. Our ability to make the previously uncomfortable and impossible, comfortable, has so far to me seemed limitless.
But how do I do those things? Making trello boards and tracking progress like my life is an agile project? Looking in the mirror and doing affirmations? Meditating? Yearly goal setting? For me the biggest obstacle is the day to day. Time slips away just like dude says in the article. Looking at memes, trolling Nazis on Twitter with said memes, dicking around on news.ycombinator and justifying it by saying to myself that sometimes I learn some cool stuff here.
Is it always going to be a battle against the distractions? Always little tricks like uninstalling the Twitter app, logging out of it in my browser? Having a habit tracking app? Is reaching my potential going to take a series of millions of bandaids? That seems wrong but I don't know what else to do.
I have so many things I wanna do, always wanted to do. Some of it I got done! Like becoming an engineer, creating a decent career for myself, riding a motorcycle. Take a step back and look at my life and it's pretty much golden, I could coast for the remainder of it and live better than 99% of humankind throughout the ages.
But it's not enough of course, cause I'm human and it never is. I want to start a business. I want to read every philosophy book ever. I want to solve consciousness. I want to be fluent in chinese, japanese, french, spanish, know enough vietnamese to fuck with people when I'm there. I want to be a god tier engineer, one of those strings-together-unix-tools-on-a-whim types that turns around and shits out an android app after, I want to be able to do high level math, I want to understand and contribute to physics, I want to invent AI, I want to be good at chess, I want to be a decent music producer.
Jesus, look at that list. That's probably 25% of the things I really truly want for myself. Unrealistic? Probably. But am I living up to my potential right now? No. Absolutely not. If there's anything I've learned there's always another level. Our ability to make the previously uncomfortable and impossible, comfortable, has so far to me seemed limitless.
But how do I do those things? Making trello boards and tracking progress like my life is an agile project? Looking in the mirror and doing affirmations? Meditating? Yearly goal setting? For me the biggest obstacle is the day to day. Time slips away just like dude says in the article. Looking at memes, trolling Nazis on Twitter with said memes, dicking around on news.ycombinator and justifying it by saying to myself that sometimes I learn some cool stuff here.
Is it always going to be a battle against the distractions? Always little tricks like uninstalling the Twitter app, logging out of it in my browser? Having a habit tracking app? Is reaching my potential going to take a series of millions of bandaids? That seems wrong but I don't know what else to do.
Hey komali2, why'd you have to go and describe me this sharply on a Saturday morning? Is it that I accidentally crowded you out at the Four Barrel pour-over bar and now you want your revenge?
I've heard it said about running: it doesn't get easier, you just get better. I'm beginning to think that that is true of life in general. My greatest source of dis-ease (rather than literal disease) is the feeling that I'm not living up to my potential. Been with me since at least third standard/grade.
While I've never been to Stockholm (heard Noma's a good local joint), I'm at the place where I'm more afraid of getting too comfortable than I am of never being at ease. I'm trying (and usually failing) to think of things one bandaid at a time rather that the whole million at once. Setting my goals real low: to suck less rather than to be good/great. Help's a lot that there's one or two things that I legitimately feel I'm damn good at.
I'm curious, especially on the topic of stringing-together-unix-tools-on-a-whim, have you found any little tricks that apply to that area specifically rather than to the general concept of productivity?
I've heard it said about running: it doesn't get easier, you just get better. I'm beginning to think that that is true of life in general. My greatest source of dis-ease (rather than literal disease) is the feeling that I'm not living up to my potential. Been with me since at least third standard/grade.
While I've never been to Stockholm (heard Noma's a good local joint), I'm at the place where I'm more afraid of getting too comfortable than I am of never being at ease. I'm trying (and usually failing) to think of things one bandaid at a time rather that the whole million at once. Setting my goals real low: to suck less rather than to be good/great. Help's a lot that there's one or two things that I legitimately feel I'm damn good at.
I'm curious, especially on the topic of stringing-together-unix-tools-on-a-whim, have you found any little tricks that apply to that area specifically rather than to the general concept of productivity?
Hah it's good to suffer with company.
Re unixy engineering stuff, I'm still a young engineer, the only thing I can think of is that I learn the most when I shoehorn it in during work, if I have time. So recently there was a fat data modification task, turn a bunch of CSV stuff into arrays and escaped strings etc, and rather than try to figure out how to have sheets do it which probably would have been easier and faster, I used it as an opportunity to upskill my vim knowledge. Picked up a couple new commands. That's only when I don't have a crazy deadline looming though sadly.
Re unixy engineering stuff, I'm still a young engineer, the only thing I can think of is that I learn the most when I shoehorn it in during work, if I have time. So recently there was a fat data modification task, turn a bunch of CSV stuff into arrays and escaped strings etc, and rather than try to figure out how to have sheets do it which probably would have been easier and faster, I used it as an opportunity to upskill my vim knowledge. Picked up a couple new commands. That's only when I don't have a crazy deadline looming though sadly.
The biggest thing for you to realize is that you can absolutely do any of those things. But you can probably only do one or two of them. Spreading your efforts around is going to get you mediocre everything, which may be okay, but if you want to be truly excellent you need to focus and concentrate on what's important. Life is about prioritization. Somehow the message that "you can be anything you want" has gotten turned into "you can be everything you want" and that's just not realistic.
This is excellent common-sense advice the kind of which we all need to be reminded about from time to time.
What a punch line! I couldn't stop laughing when I got to "I literally just turned forty-two while I was thinking this"
The problem I have is that the “free” time wasted on the screen isn’t actually free. It’s typically half committed to some activity that requires my physical but not complete mental presence or is cut into chucks of 5-10 minutes that I can’t transition into a meaningful activity for. I’m not really sure if there is much that can really be done about that.
Angst about what you've accomplished is about the processes in your mind -- not so much about what you've actually accomplished. For that reason, accomplishments alone won't calm it.
In an odd coincidence, I did happen to complete my PhD before 35. I had also learned fluent though non-native French. I had already met a wonderful girl and had had 7 children with her.
None of that stopped me from having the same feeling that life was passing me by. I still have it all the time. It's a feeling. It can be useful. But feelings don't have to be rational.
I wouldn't be surprised if Musk and Bezos both look at their careers so far and feel frustrated and impatient from time to time either. It's just how (at least some) minds work.
In an odd coincidence, I did happen to complete my PhD before 35. I had also learned fluent though non-native French. I had already met a wonderful girl and had had 7 children with her.
None of that stopped me from having the same feeling that life was passing me by. I still have it all the time. It's a feeling. It can be useful. But feelings don't have to be rational.
I wouldn't be surprised if Musk and Bezos both look at their careers so far and feel frustrated and impatient from time to time either. It's just how (at least some) minds work.
> Angst about what you've accomplished is about the processes in your mind
Yes. All of this insecurity and fear about what one has accomplished is nothing more than processes put into peoples' mind as children about what they should accomplish, should be. What is the point of feeling sad about your life?
More importantly, why do they feel sad about their lives? Is it truly their decision, based on what they truly wanted, or an expectation that society (i.e. just other people) imposed on them? I have always lived with a sense that what I chose to do is meaningful and important for no other reason than I chose to do it. Why does one need more of a reason in life to reach goals than that, as long as you can satisfy your basic needs?
Yes. All of this insecurity and fear about what one has accomplished is nothing more than processes put into peoples' mind as children about what they should accomplish, should be. What is the point of feeling sad about your life?
More importantly, why do they feel sad about their lives? Is it truly their decision, based on what they truly wanted, or an expectation that society (i.e. just other people) imposed on them? I have always lived with a sense that what I chose to do is meaningful and important for no other reason than I chose to do it. Why does one need more of a reason in life to reach goals than that, as long as you can satisfy your basic needs?
It’s ridiculous to think that you’ve failed unless you’re the founder of a smash hit company, or a movie star, or a hundred millionaire, or a famous scientist. Those are very very low probability outcomes.
The worst life to live is where you’ve sliced up your day into strict intervals of mantra contemplation, deep work, practicing guitar, working out, eating on a strict diet, etc., basically becoming your own slave, ultimately to no great outcome, because it turns out those “great outcomes” are not a function of this militaristic masochism.
The worst life to live is where you’ve sliced up your day into strict intervals of mantra contemplation, deep work, practicing guitar, working out, eating on a strict diet, etc., basically becoming your own slave, ultimately to no great outcome, because it turns out those “great outcomes” are not a function of this militaristic masochism.
[deleted]
The goal of life is happiness - right? We can all agree on that. So the thing to figure out is how to attain happiness.
What I have found is that the less you judge things, the happier you are. In fact, the only way to be unhappy or to suffer is to judge something as bad. Like in this article - a lot of judging of things that are "bad."
If you eliminate this one thing - judgement - then you are happy. Always. So this is the trick for me - removing judgement from my life. Meditating has been a good practice of it.
What I have found is that the less you judge things, the happier you are. In fact, the only way to be unhappy or to suffer is to judge something as bad. Like in this article - a lot of judging of things that are "bad."
If you eliminate this one thing - judgement - then you are happy. Always. So this is the trick for me - removing judgement from my life. Meditating has been a good practice of it.
The wiliest addictions in life are subtle. Tobacco or alcohol at least have the decency to warn with adverse and severe health effects, often dissuading some from the habit.
Internet is the subtle monster. I am not literally comparing internet addiction to the ones mentioned above. I am just saying that quitting internet is as difficult, if not more, than quitting tobacco or alcohol, and mainly because of its termite like nature to hollow out the mind. It's slow but steady, as most cruel things are.
Internet is the subtle monster. I am not literally comparing internet addiction to the ones mentioned above. I am just saying that quitting internet is as difficult, if not more, than quitting tobacco or alcohol, and mainly because of its termite like nature to hollow out the mind. It's slow but steady, as most cruel things are.
Imagine a takeout pizza restaurant run entirely by one woman. She opens the store in the morning, receives shipments, does food prep, takes orders, makes pizzas, delivers them, closes at night, files paperwork, and cleans up. By the end of the day she only gets a few dozen pizzas to customers. And as she's going to sleep, she tosses and turns, worrying that she didn't get enough done.
Now imagine her sole task for the day was to prep ingredients. How do you think she'd sleep?
Now imagine her sole task for the day was to prep ingredients. How do you think she'd sleep?
With me it is not a question of what or why but how.
Conceptually, I know why I should do a task at hand and complete it. I also know the priorities which task is more important and which are less.
The part which pulls me down each time is how to convince my brain at the instant where it is telling me to watch that netflix trailer, mindless scroll fb, etc. instead of the work that was needed to be done. What is the framework/trick/technique that people use to not give at that weak moment?
Conceptually, I know why I should do a task at hand and complete it. I also know the priorities which task is more important and which are less.
The part which pulls me down each time is how to convince my brain at the instant where it is telling me to watch that netflix trailer, mindless scroll fb, etc. instead of the work that was needed to be done. What is the framework/trick/technique that people use to not give at that weak moment?
A funny, yet a bit anxiety-fueling article about how time passes by quickly without us noticing. I feel as if it's more about us setting our goals way too high because of the internet, TV, and others. We see different people achieving so much every day, although we don't notice, that it's a) different people b) it takes them years and years and years c) they are one in a million type of people
Quite social media, or restrict yourself to check it ONLY once a day. Sticking to this rule hasn't made me a billionaire, but I feel a lot happier.
To me as an armchair psychologist, this sounds more like that the author should get a check for ADHD with depression as a co-morbitity.
Easier said than done. The most important prerequisites to getting successful treatment for ADHD are the abilities to:
- Stay focused while shopping for a psychiatrist for a problem that fills you with a sense of despair.
- Make appointments and consistently attend them.
- Clearly and persuasively explain to your loved ones how important it is to you for them to fill in a description of their memories of your childhood symptoms... and hope you weren't inattentive subtype. Spending hours reading history books isn't memorably annoying to parents like hyperactivity.
- Keep an organised record of the impacts of medication as you go through titration.
- Deal effectively with the administrative complexity of either health insurance or a new country's healthcare system. (See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKUdadCsuRE)
- Stay focused while shopping for a psychiatrist for a problem that fills you with a sense of despair.
- Make appointments and consistently attend them.
- Clearly and persuasively explain to your loved ones how important it is to you for them to fill in a description of their memories of your childhood symptoms... and hope you weren't inattentive subtype. Spending hours reading history books isn't memorably annoying to parents like hyperactivity.
- Keep an organised record of the impacts of medication as you go through titration.
- Deal effectively with the administrative complexity of either health insurance or a new country's healthcare system. (See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKUdadCsuRE)
I agree it is easier said than one. First microstop would be trying to get a professional diagnosis.
The daily shout is the humor section of the New Yorker. I wouldn’t take it too seriously
Honestly, while the essay sounds ironic and funny, if it is not all made up, it is far from healthy.
I can definitely relate to being disappointed with myself after wasting too much time online (YouTube is usually my addiction).
Problem is, even when I am productive, I usually don't feel much better for it. At least I don't feel guilty, but I don't really feel satisfied either. Feeling satisfied at the end of the day just seems to be random.
Problem is, even when I am productive, I usually don't feel much better for it. At least I don't feel guilty, but I don't really feel satisfied either. Feeling satisfied at the end of the day just seems to be random.
I spent most of my younger years making sure that my family was supported and that my kids could go to university without crushing debt afterwards.
Now I try to make sure that when I’m gone, it won’t create too much work for them to clean up after me.
I try not to be attached to worldly passions. It’s not easy but it feels like the right thing to do.
Now I try to make sure that when I’m gone, it won’t create too much work for them to clean up after me.
I try not to be attached to worldly passions. It’s not easy but it feels like the right thing to do.
That twist was a definite kick in the ass to this 35yo, question is will I wake up tomorrow still acting on it.
Is there a special word for the kind of procrastination you do by watching or reading productivity-porn?
I feel like my bullies have grown up to be successful while I ended up being a loser and it turned out that I wasn’t as smart as I thought I was. My hard work didn’t amount to much and the things I sacrificed for it were the things that actually mattered.
Get out there and write your ideas down. It's never too late to start. Edit. You have good ideas if you cultivate that skill of having ideas.
Someday you'll find an idea you like that hasn't been done before and you'll kill it.
At least that's what I tell myself :-)
Someday you'll find an idea you like that hasn't been done before and you'll kill it.
At least that's what I tell myself :-)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24120275 has helped me a lot with procrastination already (the video and discussion and the original blogpost)
Great style and obviously relatable. At the risk of taking it too seriously, though, this piece reveals an all-too-common self-centered approach to goal-setting: "I wanted to found and sell a successful business by the time I was 35". "I wanted to have given a TED talk." These are just personal outcomes that are the by-products of doing something for society. The older I get, the more obvious it becomes that the founders and the TED-talkers of the world are the people whose goals were set in terms of how they specifically wanted to help others - "I wanted to bring better healthcare to Senegal", "I wanted to improve urban transportation". It was just happenstance that founding a business was the only way to get there, or conducting academic research was the first necessary step to solve the problem. Careers and jobs are just tools to affect real societal change; speaking engagements and awards are a symptom of having done something for the world. You can't start with these things as goals and work backwards - I mean, you can, but it requires an almost sociopathic drive for fame and recognition, and is far more likely to result in burnout.
I feel like I read a roughly equal amount of words now, but i jump between a million things and rarely finish a book, the great American novel never flowed out of me either and i still haven’t become fluent in French meh
What i did today was more important than what I didn’t do. Make it a tautology !
I feel the opposite. I'm a complete slacker but had a lot success in life and accomplished so much I never thought was possible. I don't deserve any of this and I feel my biggest asset is my incredible luck.
"A healthy man wants a thousand things, a sick man only wants one."
This sounds more like a letter of a depressed person than anybody else. Or maybe we blame procrastination for the causes that gives him this feeling while there is a much deeper issue (on a societal level)
The daily lethargy may be low grade covid isolation depression. Most of my regular social contacts ended six months ago. I am not dysfunctional, but less productive. Summer outdoors helped a bit.
Don't worry, history is littered with NPC's, maybe you don't know it but you could be one of them.
Also this person daily schedule reads like someone with mild depression.
Also this person daily schedule reads like someone with mild depression.
A lot of people would give absolutely anything to be 35 again.
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And some of us would rather gnaw our left arm off than be 35 again.
The piece has pathos and is funny and feels universal, but I cannot help but think the truth is somewhat diminished when its author is published by The New Yorker!
"It is a sobering thought that by the time Mozart was my age ... he had been dead for three years." -- Tom Lehrer
...said the guy published on the newyorker.
Sometimes thinking a lot is bad, especially when hesitation comes you should kick yourself in the ass and start doing.
If you're an aspiring writer and get published in The New Yorker, you've accomplished a lot :)
this is an interesting view: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LopI4YeC4I
how luck plays a role to your success but also how you perceive your success which will change your behavior
how luck plays a role to your success but also how you perceive your success which will change your behavior
This hits me in the feels. 36.
That moment when your iPhone says “your usage is down 30% to 4 hours a day”
I chuckled
It felt like I read a mini version of Brave New World.
I didn’t even get into tedx as an audience member
The secret of happiness is low expectations.
This was depressing
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damn this one hits Hard!!!
three waffles? no way
If he's using one of those mini waffle makers three sounds like a reasonable meal.
The range of possible accomplishments is too broad, each requiring a lifetime of focus, and thus cause people to hop from accomplishment to accomplishment.
Sometimes I think the MSM is deliberately writing articles so they will trend on HN.
> I didn’t finish my Ph.D. in political science
That's a worthwhile accomplishment in itself.
That's a worthwhile accomplishment in itself.
"Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes" --Oscar
they said in a new yorker article...
ed25519FUUU(5)
This has 200 comments while the unveiling of the first working prototype of neuralink got a grand total of 15 upvotes. Hackernews has officially flatlined.
I’m not sure how this is possible... I posted the link before your linked post was created... and my post was a dupe of the following post which is also older than your linked post...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24308944
I guess I just somehow missed it?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24308944
I guess I just somehow missed it?
> but I didn’t finish it, just like I didn’t finish my Ph.D. in political science
I hope it's to the best. Humanity needs less ph.Ds in non scientific fields and more Ph.Ds in fields that don't urge the need to call themselves science, you know like real scientific endeavors, chemistry physics and so on
I hope it's to the best. Humanity needs less ph.Ds in non scientific fields and more Ph.Ds in fields that don't urge the need to call themselves science, you know like real scientific endeavors, chemistry physics and so on
Hard, hard disagree.
We already have all the resources to feed the world's population and then some, to shelter everyone, to provide health care, to stop global warming, to end poverty. We already have enough technology and then some.
The reality is that it's politics, war and corruption that gets in the way.
Sadly, our understanding of how to get along with each other for our mutual benefit is far behind our scientific understanding.
The most meaningful progress over the next century, I believe, is not going to come from technology. It's going to come from political science, sociology, and related fields like behavioral economics.
How do we fix the polarization that is tearing democracies apart? How do we make international cooperation to mitigate climate change realistic? How do we neutralize the threats from authoritarian regimes?
If you want to help people, then today these are the questions that matter most.
And the debate over whether these are "sciences" or not is just distracting and pointless -- mere semantics. They help us design institutions to improve the human good, which is what is meaningful and matters.
We already have all the resources to feed the world's population and then some, to shelter everyone, to provide health care, to stop global warming, to end poverty. We already have enough technology and then some.
The reality is that it's politics, war and corruption that gets in the way.
Sadly, our understanding of how to get along with each other for our mutual benefit is far behind our scientific understanding.
The most meaningful progress over the next century, I believe, is not going to come from technology. It's going to come from political science, sociology, and related fields like behavioral economics.
How do we fix the polarization that is tearing democracies apart? How do we make international cooperation to mitigate climate change realistic? How do we neutralize the threats from authoritarian regimes?
If you want to help people, then today these are the questions that matter most.
And the debate over whether these are "sciences" or not is just distracting and pointless -- mere semantics. They help us design institutions to improve the human good, which is what is meaningful and matters.
The hardest question is how do we replace money. How do we split out luxury, leisure, fun etc then? How do we determine what is rentable and what's not? How do we decide who and whether has e.g. the latest gaming computer? How do we decide what is worthwhile usage of natural resources?
Now, this will probably get me downvoted to oblivion, but the article sounds like the rants of a loser. We all have distractions. We all enjoy wasting time. Hell, I'm writing this after 5-6 beers and my tomorrow will most probably be wasted by hangover.
But man, you definitely got to man up get your shit figured out. You're 42, you definitely didn't hit the lottery until now and the chances don't look good in the future either. You seem pragmatic enough to realize there's got to be another way out there to be successful. Get out, find it, and follow it.
But man, you definitely got to man up get your shit figured out. You're 42, you definitely didn't hit the lottery until now and the chances don't look good in the future either. You seem pragmatic enough to realize there's got to be another way out there to be successful. Get out, find it, and follow it.
> the article sounds like the rants of a loser.
The article is published in the humor section of the New Yorker magazine. It’s clearly a humorous work of fiction written by a writer who was certainly paid for his work. It’s grandiose and delusional, because that’s what makes it funny on multiple levels. We relate to the story because we too suffer from procrastination and dismay at not meeting the fantastic goals we set for ourselves.
The article is published in the humor section of the New Yorker magazine. It’s clearly a humorous work of fiction written by a writer who was certainly paid for his work. It’s grandiose and delusional, because that’s what makes it funny on multiple levels. We relate to the story because we too suffer from procrastination and dismay at not meeting the fantastic goals we set for ourselves.
Fast forward to today and that did not happen. The startup is no more, but mainly due to burnout. We made money and did well, but not well enough. I never made my millions, but did have a substantial aqui-hire opportunity that I turned down that would have almost gotten me there.
Once that part of my life played out, I decided to make a 180 turn... I'm not working to exhaustion anymore and take a tortoise approach to my career. I've found that as long as I'm consistent and have my eye on my goals, it doesn't matter how hard I work outside of my day job. I just need to be consistent and take advantage of bursts of motivation.
I've accomplished a surprising amount with this approach. I'm not stressed, I have the best quality of life that I've ever had and work is generally fun. This is what my goal should have been from the beginning.