Ask HN: Feeling guilty for doing the bare minimum at work
413 comments
Read up a bit on ADHD. That 'hyperfocus' that occurs either with deadlines or on a passion project is a symptom, as is the inability to get excited about projects you simply don't want to do - especially given your otherwise positive reviews and your ability to clear your mind and hyperfocus near a deadline, it's something to consider.
I was diagnosed at 33, and it changed my life infinitely for the better. YMMV, and you may not have ADHD, but if you do, it is nothing to feel guilty about - it, in fact, gives you some insanely useful abilities that others simply don't have, as evidenced by the number of comments on this post explaining you have no guilt to feel, and your positive performance reviews.
But being able to understand why we do these things, and being able to understand how to adjust for them (whether through medication or coping mechanisms) is, alone, insanely relieving.
Consider picking up 'Driven to Distraction,' or 'Delivered From Distraction,' or check out these posts by Mark Suster which was what led me to get started on the path:
* https://bothsidesofthetable.com/how-to-know-if-you-have-add-...
* https://bothsidesofthetable.com/why-add-might-actually-benef...
* https://bothsidesofthetable.com/developing-an-action-plan-fo...
I was diagnosed at 33, and it changed my life infinitely for the better. YMMV, and you may not have ADHD, but if you do, it is nothing to feel guilty about - it, in fact, gives you some insanely useful abilities that others simply don't have, as evidenced by the number of comments on this post explaining you have no guilt to feel, and your positive performance reviews.
But being able to understand why we do these things, and being able to understand how to adjust for them (whether through medication or coping mechanisms) is, alone, insanely relieving.
Consider picking up 'Driven to Distraction,' or 'Delivered From Distraction,' or check out these posts by Mark Suster which was what led me to get started on the path:
* https://bothsidesofthetable.com/how-to-know-if-you-have-add-...
* https://bothsidesofthetable.com/why-add-might-actually-benef...
* https://bothsidesofthetable.com/developing-an-action-plan-fo...
Isn't it just rational not to get excited about boring stuff that is rewarded by a fix monetary ceiling? Economically it completely makes sense: why put more energy into something that yields the same result either way? Or maybe I have ADHD too.
With ADHD, for many it's nigh on impossible to get focused, no mater how high the stakes are - to the point where it seems extremely irresponsible and downright irrational to normal observers.
Imagine that almost everything in your life, is the equivalent of starting on a test/exam 2 hours before the deadline, even though you've had a week or two to finish it.
Imagine that almost everything in your life, is the equivalent of starting on a test/exam 2 hours before the deadline, even though you've had a week or two to finish it.
The problem with ADHD is that it applies to everything in your life, not just work. You're equally unable to do chores, hobbies, have fun, or even finish watching a TV series. Actually, they're even harder to do than work because there's no pressure on you to keep up with it.
>You're equally unable to do chores, hobbies, have fun, or even finish watching a TV series.
ADHD does affect everything in my life, but I don't relate to this part. For me, it primarily manifests as there being an immense amount of inertia required to do things I don't want to do. I have no issue doing things I intrinsically want to do.
If it's a TV show, hobby, or fun-having activity that I really like, then I'm perfectly able to do them. If I don't like them, then, yeah, they're probably never getting done, or only getting done in a very pathological way. Procrastinating 3 months of work until the day before the deadline, procrastinating cleaning something for a year until someone has to come over to visit, procrastinating taxes until an hour before midnight on tax day. It's the same story every time.
If it's a hobby or TV show I don't like, then I have no reason to continue it. My ADHD and motivation signal to me what what I actually do and don't want to do during my fleeting period of existence. I feel no guilt about dropping something like that if it can't hold my attention. I only feel guilt when it's something I really should be doing, like work, paperwork, etc., and especially things where I know I'm losing lots of money by not doing it.
There are plenty of things I want to want to do, and those things will never get done. But if I actually want to do something, with no meta-layers, then there's no issue for me.
ADHD does affect everything in my life, but I don't relate to this part. For me, it primarily manifests as there being an immense amount of inertia required to do things I don't want to do. I have no issue doing things I intrinsically want to do.
If it's a TV show, hobby, or fun-having activity that I really like, then I'm perfectly able to do them. If I don't like them, then, yeah, they're probably never getting done, or only getting done in a very pathological way. Procrastinating 3 months of work until the day before the deadline, procrastinating cleaning something for a year until someone has to come over to visit, procrastinating taxes until an hour before midnight on tax day. It's the same story every time.
If it's a hobby or TV show I don't like, then I have no reason to continue it. My ADHD and motivation signal to me what what I actually do and don't want to do during my fleeting period of existence. I feel no guilt about dropping something like that if it can't hold my attention. I only feel guilt when it's something I really should be doing, like work, paperwork, etc., and especially things where I know I'm losing lots of money by not doing it.
There are plenty of things I want to want to do, and those things will never get done. But if I actually want to do something, with no meta-layers, then there's no issue for me.
Your experience matches mine, apart from that I find that if I'm procrastinating on important/severe enough things, then my ability to do even things I enjoy diminishes too.
Personally I think the reason is that the cognitive dissonance gets in the way... I know that I absolutely should urgently do X (important thing I'm putting off) and all the time I don't, I cannot reconcile a deliberate decision to do Y (trivial thing I'd really enjoy). So with the inability to do either X or Y, I just end up being fully stuck and in total deadlock.
Most of the time this situation is preceded by many days, weeks or months of me DOING all those things I enjoy while blissfully neglecting the things I should be doing. It's the end result of this behaviour that eventually leads to the deadlock.
Personally I think the reason is that the cognitive dissonance gets in the way... I know that I absolutely should urgently do X (important thing I'm putting off) and all the time I don't, I cannot reconcile a deliberate decision to do Y (trivial thing I'd really enjoy). So with the inability to do either X or Y, I just end up being fully stuck and in total deadlock.
Most of the time this situation is preceded by many days, weeks or months of me DOING all those things I enjoy while blissfully neglecting the things I should be doing. It's the end result of this behaviour that eventually leads to the deadlock.
Actually, yeah, I relate to that 100%, too. (Even doing it right this second.) I just spend a lot more of my time in the neglect phase than the "caught up to me" phase.
Yes the deadlock phase is front of mind for me right now because I’ve been in it for a couple of weeks.
But you’re right that the “neglect phase” accounts for the vast majority of time. And when I’m in that, I forget all about the existence of the “deadlock phase” even though I’ll be hurtling towards another one.
Good to know that this self-destructive behaviour is common at least :)
But you’re right that the “neglect phase” accounts for the vast majority of time. And when I’m in that, I forget all about the existence of the “deadlock phase” even though I’ll be hurtling towards another one.
Good to know that this self-destructive behaviour is common at least :)
Both of your accounts match my experience, even down to the forgetting. ADHD people are generally bad at self-reflection, and I know I definitely am, despite having gotten better at it over the years.
I’m so happy to see this discussion happening on HN
I’m so happy to see this discussion happening on HN
[deleted]
It's actually seeing such discussions about ADHD over the years on HN that led me to seek an assessment and to ultimately be diagnosed myself only a few weeks ago.
It was a massive paradigm shift for me which I'm only still coming to terms with. The various discussions that pop up on HN about this topic have been hugely helpful. More so than many other places on the internet.
It was a massive paradigm shift for me which I'm only still coming to terms with. The various discussions that pop up on HN about this topic have been hugely helpful. More so than many other places on the internet.
I hate to be this condescending but why is this not just ordinary laziness? Do we really need to go to a doctor so that we hear that we have a problem, and we might need medicine, to focus?
Isn't it more likely that a constant stream of never ending notifications and interruptions decrease our attention span to seconds? You can't read a book because you can't read an article, and you can't read and article because you read 6 line long hackernews or reddit comment that "might" contain some knowledge. Your brain evolved to adapt and it adapted to a world where everything might take your attention elsewhere. You can work to fix this.
Isn't it more likely that a constant stream of never ending notifications and interruptions decrease our attention span to seconds? You can't read a book because you can't read an article, and you can't read and article because you read 6 line long hackernews or reddit comment that "might" contain some knowledge. Your brain evolved to adapt and it adapted to a world where everything might take your attention elsewhere. You can work to fix this.
ADHD is a very well studied medical phenomenon, which results from physical differences from the brain. When it does apply, getting the right kind of help can be life changing.
And even if it is "ordinary laziness", that doesn't mean that seeking confirmation of it something is ADHD or not is a bad exercise, if you can afford it. The lack of motivation also is a very good sign that the OP is heavily disconnected from their work, and needs to find another job or lifestyle, especially if it's this bad and they don't have ADHD.
If it is ADHD, then you have confirmation of a very helpful community and set of medical and psychological tools that you can apply, and you can ignore vast amounts of advice that just doesn't work for people with ADHD.
> Do we really need to go to a doctor so that we hear that we have a problem, and we might need medicine, to focus?
Modern society can be very inflexible if you're in the wrong spot, and don't have the ability to explain why the fit is so bad.
Lastly, many people who do have ADHD have been told that they are lazy or haven't lived to their potential their entire lives. They know they don't fit in. They pick over their brains, looking for ways to do better, trying ways to do better. They are, as a population, far more self-examined than the norm. They don't need your doubt, they have plenty of their own.
And even if it is "ordinary laziness", that doesn't mean that seeking confirmation of it something is ADHD or not is a bad exercise, if you can afford it. The lack of motivation also is a very good sign that the OP is heavily disconnected from their work, and needs to find another job or lifestyle, especially if it's this bad and they don't have ADHD.
If it is ADHD, then you have confirmation of a very helpful community and set of medical and psychological tools that you can apply, and you can ignore vast amounts of advice that just doesn't work for people with ADHD.
> Do we really need to go to a doctor so that we hear that we have a problem, and we might need medicine, to focus?
Modern society can be very inflexible if you're in the wrong spot, and don't have the ability to explain why the fit is so bad.
Lastly, many people who do have ADHD have been told that they are lazy or haven't lived to their potential their entire lives. They know they don't fit in. They pick over their brains, looking for ways to do better, trying ways to do better. They are, as a population, far more self-examined than the norm. They don't need your doubt, they have plenty of their own.
Very well said.
Consider how people like to say they have OCD because they think it’s just “liking to be clean”. Most people like things to be clean, right? So anyone could be diagnosed with OCD on a bad day, couldn’t they? No, because OCD is caused by underlying physical problems with the brain that cause very specific symptoms that interfere greatly with your life. When you see a person who is actually diagnosed with OCD, it becomes really clear that none of these other jokers have it.
The problem with ADHD is that instead of hand washing or checking doors or other very unusual rituals, it mostly just looks like laziness to a casual observer.
Consider how people like to say they have OCD because they think it’s just “liking to be clean”. Most people like things to be clean, right? So anyone could be diagnosed with OCD on a bad day, couldn’t they? No, because OCD is caused by underlying physical problems with the brain that cause very specific symptoms that interfere greatly with your life. When you see a person who is actually diagnosed with OCD, it becomes really clear that none of these other jokers have it.
The problem with ADHD is that instead of hand washing or checking doors or other very unusual rituals, it mostly just looks like laziness to a casual observer.
> No, because OCD is caused by underlying physical problems with the brain that cause very specific symptoms that interfere greatly with your life.
OCD is merely a label for a cluster of symptoms. It says nothing about the cause. The same can be said for the majority of psychiatric diagnoses afaik.
E.g. “Doctors aren’t sure why some people have OCD.” - https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/obsessive-compulsive-dis...
E.g. 2: OCD can be a symptom of a strep infection and nothing to do with brain chemistry. https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/pandas/
OCD is merely a label for a cluster of symptoms. It says nothing about the cause. The same can be said for the majority of psychiatric diagnoses afaik.
E.g. “Doctors aren’t sure why some people have OCD.” - https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/obsessive-compulsive-dis...
E.g. 2: OCD can be a symptom of a strep infection and nothing to do with brain chemistry. https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/pandas/
While we don’t know the exact cause of OCD or ADHD, physically, we do have research that describes correlations. Particularly for ADHD, we know certain areas of the brain that control executive function are generally smaller in people with ADHD. We also know that they generally have lower levels of certain brain chemicals, and we have learned far more about it through radioactive isotope examination of the brain as well.
For OCD: Research suggests that OCD involves problems in communication between the front part of the brain and deeper structures of the brain. These brain structures use a neurotransmitter (basically, a chemical messenger) called serotonin. Pictures of the brain at work also show that, in some people, the brain circuits involved in OCD become more normal with either medications that affect serotonin levels (serotonin reuptake inhibitors, or SRIs) or cognitive behavior therapy (CBT).
Just because we don’t know the precise cause doesn’t mean we cannot, in the meantime, help alleviate the symptoms for someone suffering from the syndrome (since we don’t know the precise cause).
Please don’t get in the way of this by implying people are “making it up,” because, simply, they are not. Both of these are extremely well studied syndromes, but really only in the last few decades.
For OCD: Research suggests that OCD involves problems in communication between the front part of the brain and deeper structures of the brain. These brain structures use a neurotransmitter (basically, a chemical messenger) called serotonin. Pictures of the brain at work also show that, in some people, the brain circuits involved in OCD become more normal with either medications that affect serotonin levels (serotonin reuptake inhibitors, or SRIs) or cognitive behavior therapy (CBT).
Just because we don’t know the precise cause doesn’t mean we cannot, in the meantime, help alleviate the symptoms for someone suffering from the syndrome (since we don’t know the precise cause).
Please don’t get in the way of this by implying people are “making it up,” because, simply, they are not. Both of these are extremely well studied syndromes, but really only in the last few decades.
> Just because we don’t know the precise cause doesn’t mean we cannot, in the meantime, help alleviate the symptoms for someone suffering from the syndrome (since we don’t know the precise cause).
I didn’t imply anything contrary to that.
> Please don’t get in the way of this by implying people are “making it up,” because, simply, they are not. Both of these are extremely well studied syndromes, but really only in the last few decades.
I didn’t imply people are making it up.
HN guidelines are “Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.”.
I understand that you find it natural to jump to conclusions about what others think, but it really damages good discussion.
> correlations
Exactly - for many psychiatric symptoms the causes are not actually known -instead we just measure a bunch of complicated things and try to read the tea leaves.
I didn’t imply anything contrary to that.
> Please don’t get in the way of this by implying people are “making it up,” because, simply, they are not. Both of these are extremely well studied syndromes, but really only in the last few decades.
I didn’t imply people are making it up.
HN guidelines are “Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.”.
I understand that you find it natural to jump to conclusions about what others think, but it really damages good discussion.
> correlations
Exactly - for many psychiatric symptoms the causes are not actually known -instead we just measure a bunch of complicated things and try to read the tea leaves.
You didn’t respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of the point I was making when you said strep can sometimes cause OCD symptoms.
The presumption here seems to be that just because we don't know the cause of a condition, the condition is less "valid"?
Sorry, I really did not mean to give that impression, and I do not trivialise mental health issues.
There is a hell of a lot of bullshit in psychology and psychiatry, sometimes to the point of abusing those they are supposed to help.
I do think that the beliefs like "my brain is wired wrong" or "it's a brain chemistry problem" are usually wrong for some conditions, and that those beliefs can be harmful because they discourage seeking less obvious solutions or solutions particular to the person.
Also you do not want unrealistic expectations of a "cure", or to encourage seeking of dangerous interventions.
The friends I have with mental health issues usually have another layer of strange personal beliefs, which doesn't help either!
It is a difficult topic to comment on, because people tend to be sensitive about it, for valid reasons.
There is a hell of a lot of bullshit in psychology and psychiatry, sometimes to the point of abusing those they are supposed to help.
I do think that the beliefs like "my brain is wired wrong" or "it's a brain chemistry problem" are usually wrong for some conditions, and that those beliefs can be harmful because they discourage seeking less obvious solutions or solutions particular to the person.
Also you do not want unrealistic expectations of a "cure", or to encourage seeking of dangerous interventions.
The friends I have with mental health issues usually have another layer of strange personal beliefs, which doesn't help either!
It is a difficult topic to comment on, because people tend to be sensitive about it, for valid reasons.
Thanks for clarifying. I agree with everything you've said and I realise that I may have misinterpreted what you were trying to say in your previous comment.
> It is a difficult topic to comment on, because people tend to be sensitive about it, for valid reasons.
It definitely is.
Having been recently diagnosed (via medical professionals) with ADHD, I've suddenly encountered for the first time what it's like to be on the other side of this.
I previously had a very misinformed idea of what ADHD (and related things like OCD) actually were. I wouldn't have trivialised them necessarily in words or conversation, but I definitely had a completely wrong understanding of the seriousness of these conditions. I didn't know what I didn't know.
The misconceptions about some of these conditions are so widespread that in my case, I've found it actively unhelpful in some cases to talk to many people in my life about it. Having done the research, I now understand much more about how my brain works and why some things are much harder for me than others, but trying to bridge the gap in this knowledge with others is really hard. Even those closest to me either view the diagnosis with suspicion (and I don't blame them for that if they have the same misconcieved idea about the condition that I did). Others just listen to me describing the problems I have and dismiss them (not intentionally) by saying things like "everyone has those problems"!
I've heard (perhaps even read on HN) that after being diagnosed with ADHD in adulthood you go through a bit of a grieving phase, in denial, then angry at medical professionals who didn't it spot it before, and then sadness at how your life might have been had you realised you had this condition much earlier. I'm in that phase now, and so the lack of understanding from others (which again, I don't blame them for) makes this all the more harder. I'm trying to reincorporate this new understanding into the "model" of myself that I've constructed over many years (without this important information) - it's tough and rather isolating.
So all of that said. I guess I'm likely to view a lot of discussion on this topic through my own specific lens, which is likely to make me overly sensitive to perceived "trivialisation".
It's interesting to recognise that I wouldn't have had this sensitivity at all only just a matter of weeks ago. It's funny how your outlook on things can change so significantly in a short space of time.
> It is a difficult topic to comment on, because people tend to be sensitive about it, for valid reasons.
It definitely is.
Having been recently diagnosed (via medical professionals) with ADHD, I've suddenly encountered for the first time what it's like to be on the other side of this.
I previously had a very misinformed idea of what ADHD (and related things like OCD) actually were. I wouldn't have trivialised them necessarily in words or conversation, but I definitely had a completely wrong understanding of the seriousness of these conditions. I didn't know what I didn't know.
The misconceptions about some of these conditions are so widespread that in my case, I've found it actively unhelpful in some cases to talk to many people in my life about it. Having done the research, I now understand much more about how my brain works and why some things are much harder for me than others, but trying to bridge the gap in this knowledge with others is really hard. Even those closest to me either view the diagnosis with suspicion (and I don't blame them for that if they have the same misconcieved idea about the condition that I did). Others just listen to me describing the problems I have and dismiss them (not intentionally) by saying things like "everyone has those problems"!
I've heard (perhaps even read on HN) that after being diagnosed with ADHD in adulthood you go through a bit of a grieving phase, in denial, then angry at medical professionals who didn't it spot it before, and then sadness at how your life might have been had you realised you had this condition much earlier. I'm in that phase now, and so the lack of understanding from others (which again, I don't blame them for) makes this all the more harder. I'm trying to reincorporate this new understanding into the "model" of myself that I've constructed over many years (without this important information) - it's tough and rather isolating.
So all of that said. I guess I'm likely to view a lot of discussion on this topic through my own specific lens, which is likely to make me overly sensitive to perceived "trivialisation".
It's interesting to recognise that I wouldn't have had this sensitivity at all only just a matter of weeks ago. It's funny how your outlook on things can change so significantly in a short space of time.
Only if your only criteria for validity for a psychiatric evaluation is having a clear correlation between brain chemistry and the diagnosis. I think the parent comment is just trying to explore where the boundary lies between mental disorder and personality trait. Maybe some psychiatrists here on HN could help add to the discussion and we could all learn more from it.
> Do we really need to go to a doctor so that we hear that we have a problem, and we might need medicine, to focus?
> You can work to fix this.
Going to a doctor is "working to fix it", and it's a lot of work to keep the prescriptions filled since nobody will give you more than 30 days supply of the useful medicines. There is plenty of other stuff you can do. It's just none of it works unless you do the medication first.
If you don't have the physical causes of ADHD, the medication won't help much, but other things like therapy or going on vacation will. With ADHD it's the opposite.
> You can work to fix this.
Going to a doctor is "working to fix it", and it's a lot of work to keep the prescriptions filled since nobody will give you more than 30 days supply of the useful medicines. There is plenty of other stuff you can do. It's just none of it works unless you do the medication first.
If you don't have the physical causes of ADHD, the medication won't help much, but other things like therapy or going on vacation will. With ADHD it's the opposite.
There's a growing group of psychologists who say laziness is a myth. It doesn't exist. When someone is being what we would call lazy, there is almost always something else going on.
https://humanparts.medium.com/laziness-does-not-exist-3af27e...
https://humanparts.medium.com/laziness-does-not-exist-3af27e...
I don't mind this take. I'm lazy as hell. I can't make myself care about doing things enough to do them. I would love to magically change that, but no luck so far. Meds help but they don't help enough that I remember to take them or get them refilled. Behavioral interventions have been shown to help, i.e. get off the damn screen and meditate, get outside.
It's not that I can't read a book, I just forget that I wanted to read it. Then by the time I remember I already have my phone out and hn pulled up. Call it laziness, call it ADHD. I don't care, and I don't expect sympathy just like someone who can't do calculus doesn't need sympathy. Some things just seem harder for me than they are for some people.
It's not that I can't read a book, I just forget that I wanted to read it. Then by the time I remember I already have my phone out and hn pulled up. Call it laziness, call it ADHD. I don't care, and I don't expect sympathy just like someone who can't do calculus doesn't need sympathy. Some things just seem harder for me than they are for some people.
And what exactly is "ordinary laziness"?
Hmm. Could that be why I fail to be a completionist in games? I play computer games, but don't give a rip about achievements or multiple playthroughs... They are fun, but as soon as I beat it, I move on.
You're joking right? You move on from a fun activity when it stops being fun you so think you may have a disorder? I don't want to seem insensitive to genuinely troubled individuals but there seems to be a pattern on HN where every single topic about productivity is now swamped with people claiming that "ADHD" is the cause of not caring about things that aren't worth caring about and not trying hard when you don't need to, etc., all of this being completely rational. It seems like a collective delusion or something akin to a dysmorphia.
ADHD is the new Aspergers
Seriously though, is there a dx for not having any common sense?
I feel like a lot of us here would be terminal cases
Seriously though, is there a dx for not having any common sense?
I feel like a lot of us here would be terminal cases
> ADHD is the new Aspergers
WTF does that even mean
WTF does that even mean
In internet culture, self-diagnosing Asperger's syndrome was a huge trend in the mid to late 2000's. Skeptics often claimed it was an excuse to cover up for social deficiencies and awkwardness.
There are similar phenomena of people doing that with all sorts of maladies or abstract identities, from chronic fatigue syndrome to being an introvert. I find ADHD to be an odd choice though, relatively. It seems like it's been at least a decade or two where over-diagnosis of ADD/ADHD was highly criticized, albeit when it comes to diagnosing children (mostly boys) and giving them Ritalin and not adults.
There are similar phenomena of people doing that with all sorts of maladies or abstract identities, from chronic fatigue syndrome to being an introvert. I find ADHD to be an odd choice though, relatively. It seems like it's been at least a decade or two where over-diagnosis of ADD/ADHD was highly criticized, albeit when it comes to diagnosing children (mostly boys) and giving them Ritalin and not adults.
I self-diagnosed Aspergers in the mid 2000s. The primarily inattentive subtype of ADHD is a better match for my symptoms, particularly the social ones, but both my psychiatrist and neuropsychologist agreed that my self-diagnosis made sense and I have traits of both disorders. They are very often comorbid. I just wasn't familiar enough with the diagnostic criteria of ADHD to realize I had it. (A roommate with ADHD that I had at the time suggested it, though.)
Also, ADHD is in fact under-diagnosed, particularly in adults and especially in women.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4195639/
Some children are overmedicated, but there's evidence it's also underdiagnosed in children.
Also, ADHD is in fact under-diagnosed, particularly in adults and especially in women.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4195639/
Some children are overmedicated, but there's evidence it's also underdiagnosed in children.
I don't mean to dismiss everyone who self-diagnoses. I was pointing out a known social phenomenon or trend of people doing so, possibly because of greater public awareness of the condition. Also see gluten intolerance for a non-psychological example.
Funnily enough, I chanced upon a random YouTube video yesterday and the very top comment was someone mentioning ADHD and others chiming in, while skeptics criticizing the self-diagnosing and likening it to those who self-diagnose other conditions such as depression:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ph3ZCriWAw&lc=Ugw0IXd-rBjzj...
Whether right or wrong, it definitely is a known internet social phenomenon. That's what the ancestral post in this current subthread was referring to by referring to ADHD as the new Asperger's.
Funnily enough, I chanced upon a random YouTube video yesterday and the very top comment was someone mentioning ADHD and others chiming in, while skeptics criticizing the self-diagnosing and likening it to those who self-diagnose other conditions such as depression:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ph3ZCriWAw&lc=Ugw0IXd-rBjzj...
Whether right or wrong, it definitely is a known internet social phenomenon. That's what the ancestral post in this current subthread was referring to by referring to ADHD as the new Asperger's.
> There are similar phenomena of people doing that with all sorts of maladies or abstract identities, from chronic fatigue syndrome to being an introvert
I don't discount this completely, but I think the argument could be equally strong that we have gained a lot of additional understanding over the last 20 years. There are plenty of conditions that used to be rarely diagnosed (or didn't even exist in medical science) but now are. Just because something didn't used to have a label or definition, but now does, doesn't make it any less valid.
For example we can see differences in ADHD brains with fMRI - something only _relatively_ recently possible. And as medical science gets better at defining and describing these things, more information gets shared, more people talk about their experiences, and the net effect is that unsurprisingly more people identify with that new information. Some self-diagnose rightly or wrongly and leave it at that, others (plenty others I think) use this recognition as a cue to go and speak to a medical expert, which often precedes a formal, valid diagnosis.
I don't discount this completely, but I think the argument could be equally strong that we have gained a lot of additional understanding over the last 20 years. There are plenty of conditions that used to be rarely diagnosed (or didn't even exist in medical science) but now are. Just because something didn't used to have a label or definition, but now does, doesn't make it any less valid.
For example we can see differences in ADHD brains with fMRI - something only _relatively_ recently possible. And as medical science gets better at defining and describing these things, more information gets shared, more people talk about their experiences, and the net effect is that unsurprisingly more people identify with that new information. Some self-diagnose rightly or wrongly and leave it at that, others (plenty others I think) use this recognition as a cue to go and speak to a medical expert, which often precedes a formal, valid diagnosis.
Maybe they actually were ADHD due to childhood lead exposure. ADHD treatments don't have many downsides (although I'm sure people thought they did at the time) except for reducing your appetite and doctor's bills, so it's not like it caused long term harm.
Aren't the medications amphetamines though? Certainly the backlash against over-diagnosis of ADHD in the '00s was fear of kids given drugs during their formative years for "being rambunctious." Very adults it's likely different though.
Not all the medications are amphetamines. The most popular medication, Ritalin, is not an amphetamine.
Even the ADHD prescribed amphetamine medication is dextroamphetamine, not the scary methamphetamine.
There are also several medications that are not stimulants. While I do believe that children should be prescribed the minimum medications during their formative years, I've talked to several teachers whose students now have a prescription because the children were doing school at home and finally followed the teacher's recommendation.
Even the ADHD prescribed amphetamine medication is dextroamphetamine, not the scary methamphetamine.
There are also several medications that are not stimulants. While I do believe that children should be prescribed the minimum medications during their formative years, I've talked to several teachers whose students now have a prescription because the children were doing school at home and finally followed the teacher's recommendation.
> Aren't the medications amphetamines though?
Yeah, and? There are literally no long term side effects of taking them (except for maybe some positive ones.)
Yeah, and? There are literally no long term side effects of taking them (except for maybe some positive ones.)
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Asking if a commenter is joking goes kind of goes against the HN Guidelines regardless if you wanted to come off as insensitive or not:
"Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community."
I mean, ADHD awareness has gone up a ton in the past year. I definitely agree that "isn't a video game completionist" is hardly a reason, on it's own, to question if one has ADHD, but it could very well be one part of a puzzle if someone has other patterns that line up.
To me that is asking like why don't I go outside and kick a tree. If I don't kick every tree do I have ADHD?
My point being is that there is absolutely no reason to be a video game completionist.
My point being is that there is absolutely no reason to be a video game completionist.
You’re right; this fact alone does not diagnose someone with ADHD. Nobody is disputing that.
But we don’t have the parent’s full context - they may have had a dozen other symptoms that they have finally been made aware of, and in that context this may be a symptom.
I don’t play video games enough for it to be one for me, but if I did, I would almost certainly have trouble being a “completionist.” That doesn’t mean I have ADHD, but coupled with about two dozen other personality traits and symptoms, and tons of self-reflection and medical help, it could be a part of that.
But we don’t have the parent’s full context - they may have had a dozen other symptoms that they have finally been made aware of, and in that context this may be a symptom.
I don’t play video games enough for it to be one for me, but if I did, I would almost certainly have trouble being a “completionist.” That doesn’t mean I have ADHD, but coupled with about two dozen other personality traits and symptoms, and tons of self-reflection and medical help, it could be a part of that.
That actually sounds more like depression than ADHD, although ADHD folks very often also have depression so they can be hard to suss out.
Since ADHD is a neurobiological disorder that people are born with, and because undiagnosed ADHD can cause depression, it should be ruled out before diagnosing depression. Same with anxiety.
These all seem like normal human activities to me, tbh
It's more of an issue of organizing and properly prioritizing one's thoughts, along with the irl output being misaligned. This usually results in an incredible amount frustration that gets fed back into the thought loop and frequently causes confusion, which that confusion contributes to the above and can lead to depression and/or anxiety (both in my case unfortunately).
The struggle is more than the simplistic description of "this is not interesting. It bores me", it's really "my brain is uncomfortably overwhelmed with coordinating my thoughts with the tasks at hand to the point of feeling angry/anxious/down/<fill in negative emotion>, but oooo I could just cook a familiar recipe which won't require much thinking and can relieve me of, and potentially help with, this mental situation". It's complicated and requires a lot of "tricks" to deal with it. This is the case whether there are tasks to do, if one is just reflecting in thought, thinking up ideas, conversing, reading, etc... even writing this has taken me 10-15 minutes tbh...
The struggle is more than the simplistic description of "this is not interesting. It bores me", it's really "my brain is uncomfortably overwhelmed with coordinating my thoughts with the tasks at hand to the point of feeling angry/anxious/down/<fill in negative emotion>, but oooo I could just cook a familiar recipe which won't require much thinking and can relieve me of, and potentially help with, this mental situation". It's complicated and requires a lot of "tricks" to deal with it. This is the case whether there are tasks to do, if one is just reflecting in thought, thinking up ideas, conversing, reading, etc... even writing this has taken me 10-15 minutes tbh...
Yeah, I 100% relate to this, and I bet a lot of people do. I would wager that ADHD like most things exists along a spectrum, and that its symptoms in mild cases can be coped with. I'm sure there's a point at which they becomes impossible.
it's not about not getting excited. It's the result of being "not excited". Neurotypicals can work on things that are uninteresting to them. ADHD people can sit there yelling at themselves to "do the thing" that they _know_ they need to do and still be completely incapable of starting regardless of how "easy" it is to actually do it once something forces them to actually start.
this video does a good job of explaining the motivation problem when you have ADHD. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM0Xv0eVGtY
this video does a good job of explaining the motivation problem when you have ADHD. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM0Xv0eVGtY
> ADHD people can sit there yelling at themselves to "do the thing" that they _know_ they need to do and still be completely incapable of starting regardless of how "easy" it is to actually do it once something forces them to actually start.
I also do this. Even worse: the easier and hence duller the task seems, the more difficult it is to get started on it. Once I do start on it and finish 5 minutes later, I need a 20 minute break (WFH doesn't help).
I also often zone out during meetings to the point I haven't got a clue what people are talking about. But to be honest the information content of most meetings is really low.
I also do this. Even worse: the easier and hence duller the task seems, the more difficult it is to get started on it. Once I do start on it and finish 5 minutes later, I need a 20 minute break (WFH doesn't help).
I also often zone out during meetings to the point I haven't got a clue what people are talking about. But to be honest the information content of most meetings is really low.
That's actually a strategy recommended to ADHD folk: do 20m of engaging "fun" to prepare yourself for 5m of forced boring activity. Think of it as recharging a reservoir of $tolerance before draining it to power some boring activity.
Getting started feels like climbing the steepest mountain, so I’ve learned to just open the damn thing in front of me and tell someone I’ll send it over to force myself to start (forced accountability). It works 99% of the time if I think the person is sitting there waiting for it anxiously. ADHD is living life as a knowledge worker on nightmare mode compared to neurotypicals with functioning executive memory.
>I also often zone out during meetings to the point I haven't got a clue what people are talking about
I've found that having a pen and some notepaper for doodling and writing whatever a speaker is saying is helpful to stay engaged
I've found that having a pen and some notepaper for doodling and writing whatever a speaker is saying is helpful to stay engaged
I play minesweeper. I even have a reputation for it. Long before I got my ADHD diagnosis. But I’ve done a good job of making people aware that if I’m playing minesweeper I’m as engaged as I’m able to be.
This is why adhd is associated with risky behaviors like drug use, gambling addiction, unprotected sex and std transmission, stealing, etc. the dopamine rush lights up your reward system above your baseline levels in these extreme situations just like procrastinating and getting something done down to the minute before it’s due and narrowly missing the severe consequences (getting fired, your spouse leaving you, letting bills go unpaid until you are about to lose your utilities, house, get deeper into credit card debt, etc.
It’s a vicious cycle leading you on a one way ticket straight to hell and losing everything you care about in life or rotting in prison as an adult that looks invisible to the naked neurotypical eye and dismissed as being lazy when a kid by ignorant parents.
It’s a vicious cycle leading you on a one way ticket straight to hell and losing everything you care about in life or rotting in prison as an adult that looks invisible to the naked neurotypical eye and dismissed as being lazy when a kid by ignorant parents.
> the dopamine rush lights up your reward system above your baseline levels in these extreme situations just like procrastinating and getting something done down to the minute before it’s due and narrowly missing the severe consequences (getting fired, your spouse leaving you, letting bills go unpaid until you are about to lose your utilities, house, get deeper into credit card debt, etc.
I’ve been this way my entire adult life and I did not realize those were dopamine hits. Wow.
I’ve been this way my entire adult life and I did not realize those were dopamine hits. Wow.
Yeah if the stakes are high you will be forced to take action, possibly activate your fight or flight adrenaline response if it’s immediate but mostly the dire consequences and novelty of situations feel akin to having a gun to your head and needing to take action or risk serious harm. Maybe they are evolved mechanisms, citations needed of course. There is hope if you have severe adhd, highly recommend a medical work up with stimulant meds at therapeutic dosages. Don’t feel ashamed if you need help, no one wants to live their life knowing they are being held back by their broken executive functioning region of their brain and missing the opportunity to realize their full potential.
Oof, this video makes me think I may have ADHD. I just cannot get boring things done, and I get more stressed the more I procrastinate, and it just spirals.
What has helped me is something that the video mentions too, and that's working with a coworker. Not so much pairing (as in, looking at each other's screen), but just saying "I'm working on X now" and feeling like someone else is working on their thing alongside you/simultaneously. That has produced great results for me.
What has helped me is something that the video mentions too, and that's working with a coworker. Not so much pairing (as in, looking at each other's screen), but just saying "I'm working on X now" and feeling like someone else is working on their thing alongside you/simultaneously. That has produced great results for me.
Checking in for accountability like this is a really REALLY common ADHD coping skill.
there's a site called focusmate that helps you find accountability buddies (https://focusmate.com). it's really helped me.
Do you use this primarily for professional life, personal tasks, general motivation? (Tried to word this non-exhaustive/non-xor but saying so explicitly in case that didn’t come across.)
You can use Focusmate for anything! I use it for 1) accountability to wake up on time and get myself going, 2) going through my morning routine, 3) working, 4) cleaning/chores. I’ve been on sessions where other people also write, meditate, study, or prep for presentations. Someone even used it to take a nap once when she needed some sleep.
Yes I'd be curious to hear more about this too. I've looked at Focusmate but haven't yet got myself over the line to signup.
ADHDer here—I found Focusmate last fall and it flipped my whole world right-side up. (It was so impactful I actually got in touch with the team and, long story short, I now work for them.) Anyway, I’d be happy to do a session with you and show you the ropes.
Interesting to hear what an impact it had for you. I was just looking at the site again yesterday but in typical ADHD fashion didn't follow through with signing up! I'm game to give it a go - my email address is in my profile.
Sweeeeeet, sent you an email :D
The common term for it I've seen online is Body Doubling, though that might be a more specific variation.
I had never heard this term, now I have more learning to do! Thank you.
This, exactly. It's not about not wanting to. It's about literally being incapable of changing that, no matter how much you tell yourself and really mean to want to.
One thing I think isn't too clear with the descriptions here - sometimes it is just that hard to start things you want to do with ADHD as well.
I consider that a hallmark of the syndrome - you are REALLY interested in something, got a project fully prepared around it, and then it sits there waiting for you to do it. All that time you might research it, but it's a problem of getting started even though it is something you are wildly interested in.
Dozens of really interesting things left undone and probably never will get done.
Most of the people who don't understand ADHD and say it is similar to what they go through should be taught about this aspect of it as well.
I consider that a hallmark of the syndrome - you are REALLY interested in something, got a project fully prepared around it, and then it sits there waiting for you to do it. All that time you might research it, but it's a problem of getting started even though it is something you are wildly interested in.
Dozens of really interesting things left undone and probably never will get done.
Most of the people who don't understand ADHD and say it is similar to what they go through should be taught about this aspect of it as well.
> I consider that a hallmark of the syndrome - you are REALLY interested in something, got a project fully prepared around it, and then it sits there waiting for you to do it.
While I don't dispute the seriousness of ADHD, having never read about it, I can't help but think that the thing you described as the hallmark of the syndrome is just a really common thing among any functioning human being.
While I don't dispute the seriousness of ADHD, having never read about it, I can't help but think that the thing you described as the hallmark of the syndrome is just a really common thing among any functioning human being.
Pretty much every symptom can be described that way. Your chest feel heavy? It could be cancer. It could also just be a really common thing among any functioning human being.
A hallmark can't just be considered without the existence of other symptoms. It literally means "If you see this symptom, look for these others to see if it's ADHD." An indicator isn't a solitary rule.
People really like to minimize it because online ADHD conversations don't typically describe the entire diagnosis and its variations. To do so would be far too verbose and extensive for regular discussion.
A hallmark can't just be considered without the existence of other symptoms. It literally means "If you see this symptom, look for these others to see if it's ADHD." An indicator isn't a solitary rule.
People really like to minimize it because online ADHD conversations don't typically describe the entire diagnosis and its variations. To do so would be far too verbose and extensive for regular discussion.
You mean people can fill out their tax forms before the due date?
No joke. I pay my CPA extra to nag me.
I do the same thing!
Same. I automate it, though, wherever possible, and still managed to forget to pay my most recent property taxes, heh
I live and die by Reminders.app and yet I still have 20 unaddressed reminders at any given time :(
I set the important reminders for 2pm. Something about 2pm is just right. It doesn't always work, but it works often enough that I "hey Siri, remind me to [x] at 2pm on [day]" when it matters. I usually end up doing it earlier because I know 2pm is coming.
I set my important ones for 1030am or 1pm!
Completely off topic (I think?), thanks for posting that video. Her entire channel seems full of things that can be useful to me.
> ADHD people can sit there yelling at themselves to "do the thing" that they _know_ they need to do and still be completely incapable of starting regardless of how "easy" it is to actually do it once something forces them to actually start.
Isn't that basically how everyone behaves?
Isn't that basically how everyone behaves?
Not to the extreme people with ADHD have.
For example, I know many people who just don't show up for work. They just can't get up and do it and they get fired. That isn't typical for how "everyone behaves."
For example, I know many people who just don't show up for work. They just can't get up and do it and they get fired. That isn't typical for how "everyone behaves."
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Where is the line between procrastination and adhd then?
Procrastinators can get things they like to do, done.
ADHD makes even things you love and are wildly interest in, hard to follow through on.
People with ADHD are notorious for starting projects and then leaving them, regardless of how fun or cool said project was.
Procrastinators don't start new projects consecutively. One is a delay tactic. The other is outright avoidance.
ADHD makes even things you love and are wildly interest in, hard to follow through on.
People with ADHD are notorious for starting projects and then leaving them, regardless of how fun or cool said project was.
Procrastinators don't start new projects consecutively. One is a delay tactic. The other is outright avoidance.
There's a big gap between finding the work you're actually doing kinda boring, and the massive effort required for me (the narration which believes itself to be the executive) to make progress of any kind at all when the rest of my internal processes don't feel like playing ball. Even with meds.
Yes, it's becoming common misconception online that hyperfocus is indicative of ADHD. That's a misunderstanding of the symptom.
The concept of hyperfocus in ADHD was introduced in certain literature to explain a reduced ability of certain ADHD patients to control their attention, such as having difficulty stopping playing a video game to do the dishes. However, that's ambiguously close to normal human behavior of preferring to do fun tasks more than un-fun tasks, so the distinction is best left to professionals.
Regardless, it wouldn't really apply to the OP's description anyway, as accomplishing necessary work tasks before deadlines when necessary isn't the same as someone drawn to fun activities like video games or TV.
As always, it's best to consult professionals. Internet medical advice, especially about ADHD, is increasingly wrong online. It's also worth noting that the concept of "hyperfocus" doesn't even appear in most accepted definitions of ADHD, and isn't considered in diagnostic tests. The idea of "hyperfocus" in ADHD is relatively limited to a few authors and one recent blurb in some European clinical definitions from 2019.
The concept of hyperfocus in ADHD was introduced in certain literature to explain a reduced ability of certain ADHD patients to control their attention, such as having difficulty stopping playing a video game to do the dishes. However, that's ambiguously close to normal human behavior of preferring to do fun tasks more than un-fun tasks, so the distinction is best left to professionals.
Regardless, it wouldn't really apply to the OP's description anyway, as accomplishing necessary work tasks before deadlines when necessary isn't the same as someone drawn to fun activities like video games or TV.
As always, it's best to consult professionals. Internet medical advice, especially about ADHD, is increasingly wrong online. It's also worth noting that the concept of "hyperfocus" doesn't even appear in most accepted definitions of ADHD, and isn't considered in diagnostic tests. The idea of "hyperfocus" in ADHD is relatively limited to a few authors and one recent blurb in some European clinical definitions from 2019.
That is not true, and it is referenced as a symptom as early as 1993 in Driven to Distraction, the book I brought up earlier.
Driven to Distraction is a self-help book, not medical literature.
I was referring to official, medical definitions of ADHD and official diagnostic criteria.
I was referring to official, medical definitions of ADHD and official diagnostic criteria.
It isn’t medical literature, but it references medical literature and is written by medical professionals. Also, whether it was mentioned in medical literature or not, the point is that the symptom was being talked about as early as 1993.
Indolence when you get don't get more out of extra work is a logical response.
What did you do to solve it? I recently saw this Reddit post [1] and immediately booked an appointment with my doctor. He gave me the run around and asked me to book a 15 min call with another doctor to get an anxiety assessment. As soon as the call began they asked if I felt like I had ADHD. I said maybe and they stopped and said that they only diagnose anxiety. Now I am 200$ poorer(thanks American healthcare) and am nowhere closer. I am going back to my doctor and demand he take it seriously and prescribe something for me to at least try(something like an extremly low dosage of Adderal or something else).
Years ago I had a different doctor and she gave me a prescription for Lexapro. My god what an experience that was. I suddenly lost all random thoughts and boredom. Its like I became a robot, got my work done on time, without any distraction and a kind of concentration I had never had before. I wasn't sad or happy for that matter, I just felt neutral all the time. It was such an interesting feeling.
However Lexapro had severe side effects. Outside of a few hours of relative alertness, I was extremely exhausted and sleepy. I tried sleeping for 24 hours and was still extremely exhausted. It also made me feel extremely nauseous, like I felt like I was being poisoned. Finally there were other side effects of an ahem...sexual nature.
All in all I threw the pills away after a week and never perused the issue again until I saw the video above. Man I'll never forget that week though. The productivity was life changing.
[1]:https://old.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/newcvd/what_adhd_fe...
Years ago I had a different doctor and she gave me a prescription for Lexapro. My god what an experience that was. I suddenly lost all random thoughts and boredom. Its like I became a robot, got my work done on time, without any distraction and a kind of concentration I had never had before. I wasn't sad or happy for that matter, I just felt neutral all the time. It was such an interesting feeling.
However Lexapro had severe side effects. Outside of a few hours of relative alertness, I was extremely exhausted and sleepy. I tried sleeping for 24 hours and was still extremely exhausted. It also made me feel extremely nauseous, like I felt like I was being poisoned. Finally there were other side effects of an ahem...sexual nature.
All in all I threw the pills away after a week and never perused the issue again until I saw the video above. Man I'll never forget that week though. The productivity was life changing.
[1]:https://old.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/newcvd/what_adhd_fe...
You'll never "solve" it; you learn to manage it.
I've had fantastic experiences with donefirst.com, but also chadd.org is a great website with tons of resources.
Don't give up on the medication; finding the right one and right dosage is extremely helpful for many people with ADHD, myself included.
The most important part is: find an expert. Child psychologists/psychiatrists often have a ton of experience with ADHD, and also often treat adults. Someone without experience treating ADHD is almost worse than leaving it untreated, because some of the 'solutions' proposed by folks who don't understand the syndrome serve to only make life worse for ADHD people (negative reinforcement, talk therapy, etc.). Talk therapy, or CBT, for example, can be helpful, but coaching is much more useful.
I've had fantastic experiences with donefirst.com, but also chadd.org is a great website with tons of resources.
Don't give up on the medication; finding the right one and right dosage is extremely helpful for many people with ADHD, myself included.
The most important part is: find an expert. Child psychologists/psychiatrists often have a ton of experience with ADHD, and also often treat adults. Someone without experience treating ADHD is almost worse than leaving it untreated, because some of the 'solutions' proposed by folks who don't understand the syndrome serve to only make life worse for ADHD people (negative reinforcement, talk therapy, etc.). Talk therapy, or CBT, for example, can be helpful, but coaching is much more useful.
Yes yes yes to all of this!
I was fortunate to have a local medical school with a psychiatry department that has an Adult ADHD clinic where I could seek a diagnosis at the age of 42. Unlike many adults who suspect they have ADHD, I was taken seriously and did not encounter any skepticism on the part of my healthcare providers. I even expressed concern that my problem could be anxiety or depression instead, and my psychiatrist said "If you have undiagnosed ADHD, of course you're going to be anxious and depressed." Find the most expert ADHD person you can for diagnosis and prescribing medication, I really think this is key.
I also agree on not giving up on medication, I had to try three before I found one that worked without also having negative side effects. There's at least one other one I'd like to try, mostly out of curiosity.
I've worked with both a therapist with ADHD expertise and an ADHD coach. My therapist helps me accept my ADHD brain, my coach helps me figure out how to work with it instead of against it. I agree coaching is more helpful but it works best if you can accept the way your brain works instead of trying to fight or change it, so seeing a therapist first to work through that might be a good idea.
I've been listening to a lot of ADHD audiobooks lately. The one I've liked best so far is Nancy Ratey's _The Disorganized Mind_ -- she has ADHD herself and she's the wife of John Ratey, co-author of Driven to Distraction. She kind of invented ADHD coaching and the book is about how to coach yourself.
I was fortunate to have a local medical school with a psychiatry department that has an Adult ADHD clinic where I could seek a diagnosis at the age of 42. Unlike many adults who suspect they have ADHD, I was taken seriously and did not encounter any skepticism on the part of my healthcare providers. I even expressed concern that my problem could be anxiety or depression instead, and my psychiatrist said "If you have undiagnosed ADHD, of course you're going to be anxious and depressed." Find the most expert ADHD person you can for diagnosis and prescribing medication, I really think this is key.
I also agree on not giving up on medication, I had to try three before I found one that worked without also having negative side effects. There's at least one other one I'd like to try, mostly out of curiosity.
I've worked with both a therapist with ADHD expertise and an ADHD coach. My therapist helps me accept my ADHD brain, my coach helps me figure out how to work with it instead of against it. I agree coaching is more helpful but it works best if you can accept the way your brain works instead of trying to fight or change it, so seeing a therapist first to work through that might be a good idea.
I've been listening to a lot of ADHD audiobooks lately. The one I've liked best so far is Nancy Ratey's _The Disorganized Mind_ -- she has ADHD herself and she's the wife of John Ratey, co-author of Driven to Distraction. She kind of invented ADHD coaching and the book is about how to coach yourself.
Lexapro made me feel like I was on the come up for LSD or MDMA for the first two weeks I took it. It was, for lack of better explanation, as if I were plugged into an electric socket.
After the first two weeks or so, things evened out and I felt much more normal but all of the good things Lexapro brought to me remained. This, from my understanding, is normal and you simply did not give your body/mind enough time to adjust to the dosage.
After the first two weeks or so, things evened out and I felt much more normal but all of the good things Lexapro brought to me remained. This, from my understanding, is normal and you simply did not give your body/mind enough time to adjust to the dosage.
I don’t think Lexapro did anything to me other than reduce my anxiety. Certainly no side effects in the first few weeks. I started at the lowest possible dose though.
I was also told that the effects only trigger after 2-3 weeks, so to not stop during the first.
I was also told that the effects only trigger after 2-3 weeks, so to not stop during the first.
Same here. I was on Lexapro for quite some time, and Prozac a few years later. Both (alongside therapy) reduced my anxiety, and helped greatly with my depression. I've since moved off both, and I've been in a quite good place mentally for over a year now.
Neither helped with attention and focus though. I still get distracted by the next thing easily. Although I've never had a diagnosis of ADD or ADHD, I've suspected it for a while now, as it had been suggested off-handedly by a former therapist back in college. This article might be the push I need to get some confirmation.
It hasn't impacted my professional life, but my hobbies have certainly fallen by the wayside because of my difficulties with attention.
Neither helped with attention and focus though. I still get distracted by the next thing easily. Although I've never had a diagnosis of ADD or ADHD, I've suspected it for a while now, as it had been suggested off-handedly by a former therapist back in college. This article might be the push I need to get some confirmation.
It hasn't impacted my professional life, but my hobbies have certainly fallen by the wayside because of my difficulties with attention.
> As soon as the call began they asked if I felt like I had ADHD. I said maybe and they stopped and said that they only diagnose anxiety.
What they really meant is that their business is optimized for prescribing certain medications with the same diagnosis and same spiel given to every patent conversation.
What they really meant is that their business is optimized for prescribing certain medications with the same diagnosis and same spiel given to every patent conversation.
An ADHD diagnosis needs to be done by a neuropsychologist, who usually has a Ph.D. and specific board certifications. An anxiety disorder diagnosis is usually done by a psychiatrist, who is a doctor with an M.D. and specific psychiatry certifications.
Thank you. However, I'm not sure that is correct.
[2] https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/adhd-doctor
There are several types of professionals who typically diagnose ADHD. These include: physicians (especially psychiatrists, pediatricians, neurologists), psychologists, social workers, nurse practitioners, and other licensed counselors or therapists (e.g. professional counselors, marriage and family therapists, etc.). [1]
Some examples of professionals who are capable of diagnosing ADHD include: pediatricians, psychiatrists, family physicians, nurse practitioners, psychologists, psychotherapists. [2]
[2] https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/adhd-doctor
I agree that it's both broader and more complicated than what I wrote. At least in some states in the U.S., a neuropsychologist can diagnose ADHD, but can't write prescriptions for medications to treat it. Meanwhile, a psychiatrist can write prescriptions for a patient with ADHD, but might only do so after he reads a diagnosis from a neuropsychologist. Your experience may vary.
Also, diagnoses for disability accommodations (e.g., in education) are a whole different and complicated thing.
Also, diagnoses for disability accommodations (e.g., in education) are a whole different and complicated thing.
That is interesting that some of them are authorized to diagnose, but can't write a prescription to control it.
I guess that's why they'll all eventually send you to a "specialist," which is another way of saying "someone authorized to medicate you for this."
I'm not sure though - physicians can prescribe Ritalin, but at least here, they always send you off to be checked out by a psychiatrist first.
I guess that's why they'll all eventually send you to a "specialist," which is another way of saying "someone authorized to medicate you for this."
I'm not sure though - physicians can prescribe Ritalin, but at least here, they always send you off to be checked out by a psychiatrist first.
That makes sense to me. Of course, I'm not disputing the existence of specialists. A nurse practitioner or pediatrician may not have the most familiarity or want to deal with the issue.
Wow thank you for that video. It pretty clearly demonstrated to me that I di not have ADHD. I’ve seen threads like thus, recognized a few symptoms, and wondered. But my inner state is not even remotely close to that.
ADHD is interesting, but it's not really a superpower. It's a superpower in retrospect if you've already found a way to be successful with it, but it's not really something I've found that can be deliberately applied to succeed at things that other people have an easier time with. For me it also helps in areas that I've seen other people struggle in, but I think the key is in how intentionally you can apply yourself. So if you're already a Nat Geo Photographer or professional basejumper, you might look back after a diagnosis and think "that makes sense", but I don't think it would help me get there.
What seems at least somewhat true, is that if you're a person who can be employed arbitrarily and can connect your income directly to things that bring you value, you'll have an easier time in a capitalistic society than someone who needs to derive their motivation from the things they do all the time; with the exception of someone who is exceptionally talented and just falls into success as a consequence of the output of what they've been fixating on.
I'm a software developer I guess, which gives me a hypothetically high earning potential. But over the last 10 years, someone working a menial job for 30-40k would come out on top financially. I've had a hell of a lot more free-time than that person, which is very personally valuable, but it doesn't scale maybe even over more than one decade with such a tattered work history.
What seems at least somewhat true, is that if you're a person who can be employed arbitrarily and can connect your income directly to things that bring you value, you'll have an easier time in a capitalistic society than someone who needs to derive their motivation from the things they do all the time; with the exception of someone who is exceptionally talented and just falls into success as a consequence of the output of what they've been fixating on.
I'm a software developer I guess, which gives me a hypothetically high earning potential. But over the last 10 years, someone working a menial job for 30-40k would come out on top financially. I've had a hell of a lot more free-time than that person, which is very personally valuable, but it doesn't scale maybe even over more than one decade with such a tattered work history.
After reading one of the parents' links, I wouldn't revise anything I said. Advice that amounts to "delegate the task to someone you hired at your startup" is pretty much only useful for exactly ppl who can do that. I'd rather hear about devastating and comical failures that a person realistically worked their way out of. As in someone losing their job that they needed to pay for their house because they lost interest in the subject matter, then couldn't get another job that paid the same because their burnout broke their ability to grind algorithms problems and it blew up their family and sent them into a depression spiral, and they couldn't pay for therapy obviously so they ended up on the street with less than zero to their name. After that, if they still have a successful startup, then great, maybe there's something constructive to work with. It ain't a fucking super power unless you're pretty lucky imo.
I don't mean to dismiss the GPs comment about their own ADD. No doubt, it's going to be life changing, hopefully for the better. I'm just sick of startup founders saying that actually all I need is to cut carbs and be a CEO.
I don't mean to dismiss the GPs comment about their own ADD. No doubt, it's going to be life changing, hopefully for the better. I'm just sick of startup founders saying that actually all I need is to cut carbs and be a CEO.
Reading the OP's account on it's own, I figured it may have been due to burnout or similar. Reading this (excellent) comment, I'm reconsidering my own experiences. I suspect this may be the WebMD effect in action (I clearly have cancer!), but it's definitely making me reconsider a lot of my own personal experiences.
Same story. Founder, early 30s, a couple kids, just got diagnosed last year. Life-changing. Loved the Suster blog posts you linked. The book I liked was "A New Understanding of ADHD in Children and Adults".
As someone who highly suspects they may have ADHD, how was the diagnosis life changing? Was it through medication, or simply through understanding yourself better?
Both; but honestly, the latter was more important. Simply having a name for the reasons why, no matter how hard I tried and no matter how much I really, genuinely, truly wanted to, there were certain things I just couldn't do... that alone was extremely relieving. And infuriating. And vindicating. But mostly, genuinely relieving.
I was able to accept that I wasn't an incompetent fool, incapable of being useful - I had ADHD.[1] That was OK. That meant I could accept what I was bad at, focus on the things I was good at, and use techniques to adjust for the things I've now accepted I'm bad at, instead of incessantly trying to do the same thing over and over that works for other people but ... just doesn't work for me.
Medication has also helped, and I use it on an as-needed basis, but it is not, alone, a cure for anything - it is a tool, often an incredibly helpful one, but still just that. The education and understanding about what ADHD is has been far more helpful, though I'm glad I have the medication as a tool, too.
[1] Incidentally, not understanding your own effect on other people, and devaluing your own contributions and successes? Also a symptom of ADHD. Think about it: most people choose, simply, to try to do the things they are likely to be successful at; they choose carefully. ADHD people do not choose; they can't. They do all of the things they might be excited about, meaning they fail, frankly, at most of them. But in those that they succeed, they are often wildly successful; to everyone else, this is objectively obvious. To the ADHD person, they know they've failed 98 times for every 2 successes, and often fall into a depression (though not as deep as someone who has clinical depression or BPD, unless that's a separate symptom) after nearly every success.
I was able to accept that I wasn't an incompetent fool, incapable of being useful - I had ADHD.[1] That was OK. That meant I could accept what I was bad at, focus on the things I was good at, and use techniques to adjust for the things I've now accepted I'm bad at, instead of incessantly trying to do the same thing over and over that works for other people but ... just doesn't work for me.
Medication has also helped, and I use it on an as-needed basis, but it is not, alone, a cure for anything - it is a tool, often an incredibly helpful one, but still just that. The education and understanding about what ADHD is has been far more helpful, though I'm glad I have the medication as a tool, too.
[1] Incidentally, not understanding your own effect on other people, and devaluing your own contributions and successes? Also a symptom of ADHD. Think about it: most people choose, simply, to try to do the things they are likely to be successful at; they choose carefully. ADHD people do not choose; they can't. They do all of the things they might be excited about, meaning they fail, frankly, at most of them. But in those that they succeed, they are often wildly successful; to everyone else, this is objectively obvious. To the ADHD person, they know they've failed 98 times for every 2 successes, and often fall into a depression (though not as deep as someone who has clinical depression or BPD, unless that's a separate symptom) after nearly every success.
> often fall into a depression (though not as deep as someone who has clinical depression or BPD, unless that's a separate symptom) after nearly every success.
Echoing this point. I struggled with depression for much of my life. Being diagnosed with ADHD at 25 and taking medication for it on a regular basis (5-6d/week) has done more for my depression than any depression medication I've tried.
Echoing this point. I struggled with depression for much of my life. Being diagnosed with ADHD at 25 and taking medication for it on a regular basis (5-6d/week) has done more for my depression than any depression medication I've tried.
This also goes to rejection sensitivity which is also common in ADHD. Because we’re overly aware of our failures, we’re also likely to have outsized reactions to reasonable criticism… restarting the same vicious cycle.
Very well put. I was diagnosed as an adult. While I was waiting for my results, at one point my wife said, "wait, do you want to have ADHD?". And yes, I wasn't really able to articulate why I was hoping for a positive result, but that's just it: putting a name to it as a way of forgiving myself for not "living up to my potential".
Wow. I've been reading this whole thread, thinking if I might or might not have ADHD, but your point about perception of success and failure hit it right home. Never seen it described exactly like this, thanks a lot!
There's a bunch of reasons. None by itself is life-changing, but together they make a big difference.
- Awareness. Sometimes, I notice, "oh, I'm feeling distracted right now." Or, "I'm feeling bored right now." Once I notice, I can avoid doing the unhelpful next thing I was going to do.
- Medication. It does help with focus and context-switching, especially on days I have to do a number of medium-size boring tasks. I probably take it every other day.
- Being present. More present with kids when I'm on medication. My wife says I'm less impatient.
- Self-acceptance. That's why I love Mark Suster's posts. He's open that his ADHD makes him a talented entrepreneur and a terrible employee. I have a different temperament than Mark but feel similarly. I used to feel ashamed of a couple of character traits. I don't anymore. This is who I am.
- My tribe. When I look around at close friends and acquaintances, other founders I know including some you've probably heard of -- a ton of them have ADHD too. An employee at our startup has expressed that he's going to start his own startup fairly soon. I was talking to his manager about it and said, effectively: "of course he is. He's brilliant and a bit ADHD. He's got founder genes."
- Awareness. Sometimes, I notice, "oh, I'm feeling distracted right now." Or, "I'm feeling bored right now." Once I notice, I can avoid doing the unhelpful next thing I was going to do.
- Medication. It does help with focus and context-switching, especially on days I have to do a number of medium-size boring tasks. I probably take it every other day.
- Being present. More present with kids when I'm on medication. My wife says I'm less impatient.
- Self-acceptance. That's why I love Mark Suster's posts. He's open that his ADHD makes him a talented entrepreneur and a terrible employee. I have a different temperament than Mark but feel similarly. I used to feel ashamed of a couple of character traits. I don't anymore. This is who I am.
- My tribe. When I look around at close friends and acquaintances, other founders I know including some you've probably heard of -- a ton of them have ADHD too. An employee at our startup has expressed that he's going to start his own startup fairly soon. I was talking to his manager about it and said, effectively: "of course he is. He's brilliant and a bit ADHD. He's got founder genes."
Yeah seriously, what's the secret? I'm 32 and I was diagnosed when I was 20 but the drugs make me anorexic and mute my personality and knowing I have ADHD has not proven particularly useful, especially given that I already knew my tendencies and behaviors and had long since developing coping strategies
The only way my life changed when I was diagnosed was that I got paid for the study I had signed up for, which required I have a diagnosis
The only way my life changed when I was diagnosed was that I got paid for the study I had signed up for, which required I have a diagnosis
Therapy/coaching, and don't give up on trying to adjust the medication. Finding the right dosage, and specific med that works for you, is tricky (I haven't found it yet, but am closer), but can be life-changing. There are a ton of new types of medications for ADHD now; far more than there used to be, when we basically knew stimulants helped but didn't know why.
Still, for about 20% of people, medication simply doesn't help. For them, coaching and therapy (and education about ADHD) is far more useful.
Check out https://chadd.org/ for lots of fantastic resources
Still, for about 20% of people, medication simply doesn't help. For them, coaching and therapy (and education about ADHD) is far more useful.
Check out https://chadd.org/ for lots of fantastic resources
I also recommend Scott Alexander's blog post on ADHD medication:
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/know-your-amphetamines
If you're not familiar with the author, he's an incredibly talented blogger whose day job is as a psychiatrist.
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/know-your-amphetamines
If you're not familiar with the author, he's an incredibly talented blogger whose day job is as a psychiatrist.
Try changing medication, although they're nearly all slightly different forms of amph, the differences are significant. For me, ritalin is just headaches, modafinil is less effective but wonderfully free of most side-effects, and dex is the most useful thing I can legally get.
Unfortunately modafinil is almost 10x the price of dex in Australia if you don't have narcolepsy, and the drug that I suspect would benefit me the most (adderall, a mix of dex and meth) is simply illegal.
Unfortunately modafinil is almost 10x the price of dex in Australia if you don't have narcolepsy, and the drug that I suspect would benefit me the most (adderall, a mix of dex and meth) is simply illegal.
There isn't any methamphetamine in Adderall! As far as I know the IR version isn't much more effective than dexedrine.
Vyvanse is the form that works best for me, but the crash can ruin any of my evening plans since I lose all motivation or sometimes just need a nap.
Strattera also works very well for some people and is easy to get.
Vyvanse is the form that works best for me, but the crash can ruin any of my evening plans since I lose all motivation or sometimes just need a nap.
Strattera also works very well for some people and is easy to get.
How often do you discuss how meds are working for you? If you feel muted you might be undermedicated. Your doctor should know that you’re reacting this way and if they don’t take it seriously they’re probably not a good fit.
When I was undermedicated I was literally falling asleep at random, and had basically no emotional response to almost anything. Getting closer to where I should be over the last few months has made a world of difference.
When I was undermedicated I was literally falling asleep at random, and had basically no emotional response to almost anything. Getting closer to where I should be over the last few months has made a world of difference.
For me it’s been both.
Not to put aside the medication… it’s made me feel more like a normal functioning human capable of existing in a world. I don’t want to overemphasize this though because, while it saved my life, the other part made my life feel worth saving.
I’ve learned in the last couple years that almost all of the things I struggle with trace back to ADHD. My inability to take care of myself and my surroundings without fooling myself with rewards; my cognitive impairments around sensory issues; my endless stream of damaged friendships because I can’t respond to texts or emails or whatever; my whole upbringing of incompatible disappointments because my whole family probably has the same brain. So many things have an explanation even if it’s too late to correct a lot of it. And having an explanation has been immeasurably valuable.
Not to put aside the medication… it’s made me feel more like a normal functioning human capable of existing in a world. I don’t want to overemphasize this though because, while it saved my life, the other part made my life feel worth saving.
I’ve learned in the last couple years that almost all of the things I struggle with trace back to ADHD. My inability to take care of myself and my surroundings without fooling myself with rewards; my cognitive impairments around sensory issues; my endless stream of damaged friendships because I can’t respond to texts or emails or whatever; my whole upbringing of incompatible disappointments because my whole family probably has the same brain. So many things have an explanation even if it’s too late to correct a lot of it. And having an explanation has been immeasurably valuable.
Just asked last week: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27514005
"as is the inability to get excited about projects you simply don't want to do - "
Why is this ADHD and not just being human? This sounds so basic I have a hard time believing this is because of a condition.
Why is this ADHD and not just being human? This sounds so basic I have a hard time believing this is because of a condition.
It's not about not getting excited; it's about literally being unable to. Someone with ADHD can sit there and really mean to get excited, and yell at themselves to, and they simply can't do it; their brain won't let them.
Someone neurotypical can usually convince themselves to at least do it, and "will" themselves into it.
But you're somewhat right, and this is why getting a real diagnosis from a professional is so important: lots of people have some of these symptoms. What distinguishes the ADHD brain from the neurotypical brain is the duration and frequency of these symptoms, and an inability to adjust for them even with disciplined effort.
And it's not about medication, necessarily, though for 80% of people with ADHD, medication is extremely helpful; often, just learning about the syndrome and finding a therapist/coach to help build tools and stop blaming yourself for the things you cannot change is extremely helpful on its own too.
Someone neurotypical can usually convince themselves to at least do it, and "will" themselves into it.
But you're somewhat right, and this is why getting a real diagnosis from a professional is so important: lots of people have some of these symptoms. What distinguishes the ADHD brain from the neurotypical brain is the duration and frequency of these symptoms, and an inability to adjust for them even with disciplined effort.
And it's not about medication, necessarily, though for 80% of people with ADHD, medication is extremely helpful; often, just learning about the syndrome and finding a therapist/coach to help build tools and stop blaming yourself for the things you cannot change is extremely helpful on its own too.
In what way is yelling at yourself to get excited going to work? How can you _really mean_ to get excited? Who on earth is in such masterful control of their emotional state that they can do this?
I personally think that we've taken something completely normal and turned it into a "disorder" simply because it goes against the societal norm of sitting quietly at a desk for 8 hours a day.
I personally think that we've taken something completely normal and turned it into a "disorder" simply because it goes against the societal norm of sitting quietly at a desk for 8 hours a day.
It's hard to describe, but it isn't just about work or not being able to sit for 8 hours at a desk. It pervades the rest of your life; often, even things you want to be doing, you simply cannot get started on, because your brain is filled with distractions and you do not have the executive function to be able to stop it.
It is a syndrome rooted in physical causes, but one we don't yet fully understand.
The research is very clear though: our brains are simply different.
It is a syndrome rooted in physical causes, but one we don't yet fully understand.
The research is very clear though: our brains are simply different.
That helps a lot. I know I'm 100% able to do the thing, I'm just a lazy bastard some days
People with ADHD have a hard time starting and then completing even things they do want to do. Everyone with ADHD has a dozen unfinished recent projects they adore, but will probably never finish.
Hyperfocus gets them started, and they go REALLY far with the project, and then it wears out, and the project is neglected thereafter. Even if the person still adores the project and hopes to finish it. Without the hyperfocus, nothing gets done.
Hyperfocus gets them started, and they go REALLY far with the project, and then it wears out, and the project is neglected thereafter. Even if the person still adores the project and hopes to finish it. Without the hyperfocus, nothing gets done.
This also sounds like the 80/20 rule and/or procrastination. 80% of the thing takes 20 % of the time, and then a feeling of diminishing returns blocks us from doing the other 80% of the effort.
> the project is neglected thereafter. Even if the person still adores the project and hopes to finish it.
I am also curious why this is labeled ADHD. To me this seems to just be “the human condition”.
I guess from what I’ve read in this thread, using the term “ADHD” seems to allow people the ability to forgive themselves for the very human condition of procrastination and/or “not achieving perfect completion”.
For anyone reading this, you can also choose to forgive yourself for not being perfect without the professional diagnosis. At least I definitely do.
> the project is neglected thereafter. Even if the person still adores the project and hopes to finish it.
I am also curious why this is labeled ADHD. To me this seems to just be “the human condition”.
I guess from what I’ve read in this thread, using the term “ADHD” seems to allow people the ability to forgive themselves for the very human condition of procrastination and/or “not achieving perfect completion”.
For anyone reading this, you can also choose to forgive yourself for not being perfect without the professional diagnosis. At least I definitely do.
You may be right and indeed there's many psychiatrist who openly say that the definition of ADHD and where you draw the line between having it and not is somewhat arbitrary. But if people are struggling and having this diagnosis and these treatments helps with minimal downside then why not use them?
I recently got diagnosed and it may just be that I'm naturally very distractible and bad at paying attention. But if the diagnosis and meds make my life significantly better at minimal risk/cost then what's the harm?
I recently got diagnosed and it may just be that I'm naturally very distractible and bad at paying attention. But if the diagnosis and meds make my life significantly better at minimal risk/cost then what's the harm?
Given it helps, I would not ask anyone to stop what they are doing. I was just curious if it might be more “placebo” than chemical, and clearly both the placebo and the chemicals are useful.
Meanwhile, I was just trying to provide extra data, i.e. it’s possible and acceptable to forgive yourself for not being perfect without any diagnosis.
Hopefully it just provides any one who reads this, one extra strategy to help themselves.
Meanwhile, I was just trying to provide extra data, i.e. it’s possible and acceptable to forgive yourself for not being perfect without any diagnosis.
Hopefully it just provides any one who reads this, one extra strategy to help themselves.
To forgive oneself is not universally easy. In those cases the problem isn't (only) ADH, but other issues. For someone very deep down the rabbit hole it might be the most crushingly difficult first step, indeed.
It really is hard to describe and, to be fair, is certainly only one symptom of ADHD and a dozen other things. This is why a diagnosis needs to come from a professional, but if someone has been struggling to put together the pieces of their own puzzle, there are likely far more behaviors that have driven them to consider this.
To someone without ADHD it doesn't make sense at times.
If you have certain types of ADHD and you aren't excited about something, you just have a huge resistance to doing it and you likely won't do it. Many don't even do the work with a deadline.
On the flip side, when you're intensely interested, you often times are completely absorbed into it, at the expense of other human needs.
If you have certain types of ADHD and you aren't excited about something, you just have a huge resistance to doing it and you likely won't do it. Many don't even do the work with a deadline.
On the flip side, when you're intensely interested, you often times are completely absorbed into it, at the expense of other human needs.
> On the flip side...
Also, when that hyperfocus runs out, that absorption is lost, possibly forever. Onto the next fleeting thing.
Also, when that hyperfocus runs out, that absorption is lost, possibly forever. Onto the next fleeting thing.
> Why is this ADHD and not just being human?
Because most people can work effectively on a project that they don't want to do by, for example, focusing on the positive benefits of doing the project or the negative consequences of not doing it. Someone with ADHD can go through the same reasoning and still not be able to pay attention and effectively work on the project.
Because most people can work effectively on a project that they don't want to do by, for example, focusing on the positive benefits of doing the project or the negative consequences of not doing it. Someone with ADHD can go through the same reasoning and still not be able to pay attention and effectively work on the project.
I have an ADHD diagnosis (honestly I think my case is rather severe, even) and I agree.
Procrastinating is something everyone does.
Being completely unable to sit still for more than a few minutes is an experience neurotypicals don't share.
ADHD is really one of those disorders that's both under and over diagnosed
Procrastinating is something everyone does.
Being completely unable to sit still for more than a few minutes is an experience neurotypicals don't share.
ADHD is really one of those disorders that's both under and over diagnosed
The difference is that even if you want to do something, often you simply cannot if the rest of your brain isn't playing along.
Agreed. Everyone and their uncle has ADHD nowadays. All their arguments are complete BS and imo it’s derived from stressful contemporary life styles.
“ADHD is wanting to do something but can’t” No, you don’t do it because it’s hard/boring/overwhelming/menial, not because you can’t. These people will pay later for the central stimulants. My friend is numb after starting with them but sure, he is productive.
It's ADHD when it seriously negatively affects your quality of life.
I'm really glad to see that this is the top comment. This was my first reaction too, sounds a lot like ADHD.
This describes me pretty well. What is the test for ADHD and is it just a doctor's opinion if you have it or not?
Also is there any tangible benefits? I don't understand how just knowing provides enough benefit to bother going to a doctor.
Also is there any tangible benefits? I don't understand how just knowing provides enough benefit to bother going to a doctor.
Second all of that.
Driven to Distraction or Delivered From Distraction. But not both, they're effectively the same book.
Driven to Distraction or Delivered From Distraction. But not both, they're effectively the same book.
Yeah, I could see that. Once I had an explanation, I wanted to read all of the things about it (heh, ironic)
I did find value in reading both, but mostly because it gave me a sense of history, and how much our understanding of what ADHD is had progressed from the past, and how my (incorrect) assumptions about what it was came to be.
YMMV :)
I did find value in reading both, but mostly because it gave me a sense of history, and how much our understanding of what ADHD is had progressed from the past, and how my (incorrect) assumptions about what it was came to be.
YMMV :)
Besides reading this books, what else do you do that helps? Are you taking medication as well?
What is it that changed your life? Medication? Better understanding of yourself?
Medication could also change the life for worse because one risks getting psychosis.
True, but this is also the case if you have heart surgery to save your life.
There’s tradeoffs to everything.
There’s tradeoffs to everything.
This is simply false. Please read up on it before making claims that are unfounded.
Medication saves lives.
Medication saves lives.
No, this is not false. Reddit is all over posts about this. Any medication has risks how can you deny this? If you take it you accept this (admittedly) small risk.
Sorry, I responded to an exaggeration with one of my own. Mea culpa.
Of course every medication has risks. You should evaluate them for yourself, with a physician.
However, generalizing that to “medication is dangerous and can cause psychosis, or death, and thus you shouldn’t take it because it can have side effects, even if it could otherwise help you” is garbage advice.
Also, the dosages at which stimulants and such are used for ADHD as a therapy (as opposed to abused) are generally quite small, fwiw.
Of course every medication has risks. You should evaluate them for yourself, with a physician.
However, generalizing that to “medication is dangerous and can cause psychosis, or death, and thus you shouldn’t take it because it can have side effects, even if it could otherwise help you” is garbage advice.
Also, the dosages at which stimulants and such are used for ADHD as a therapy (as opposed to abused) are generally quite small, fwiw.
I expanded on this elsewhere in the thread :)
This was very helpful. Thank you
Shit this explains me at work the last couple of months. I might have ADHD. Time to go see a doctor. Thank you!
Currently, I cannot read even one page of a book much less an entire book. I also get bored of people and interests easily.
Which type? I have ADHD-PI diag at 38, but it maybe a direct consequence of low testosterone.
It's interesting that the major parts of my body are very masculine while others aren't as much as they were. And, it's not Klinefelter's or a karyotype issue. Attractive members of my preferred gender for adult activities are frequently "shouting" overt interest nonverbally that doesn't register to me as anything other than a potential threat. My instincts should be of curiosity, delight, and novelty.
Starting on clomid tomorrow because the memory, concentration, alertness, and fluid/crystalized intelligences became disabled to the point where I cannot work. I may also have to take hCG too. An endocrinologist has to research the primary cause because it could be an HPG tumor or something else, because the low T issue is absurd.
Which type? I have ADHD-PI diag at 38, but it maybe a direct consequence of low testosterone.
It's interesting that the major parts of my body are very masculine while others aren't as much as they were. And, it's not Klinefelter's or a karyotype issue. Attractive members of my preferred gender for adult activities are frequently "shouting" overt interest nonverbally that doesn't register to me as anything other than a potential threat. My instincts should be of curiosity, delight, and novelty.
Starting on clomid tomorrow because the memory, concentration, alertness, and fluid/crystalized intelligences became disabled to the point where I cannot work. I may also have to take hCG too. An endocrinologist has to research the primary cause because it could be an HPG tumor or something else, because the low T issue is absurd.
Not to get into the other details but I’m finally getting over my fear of admitting I don’t read. Here’s what I’ve realized:
I’m always reading all of the time [zizek.gif]. I’m reading code, documentation, release notes, emails and texts… from the moment I wake til I sleep.
Put an interesting book in front of me and, well, I’m interested but getting my brain into a place where it can take in new reading sources is like getting my body in a place to take up running right after walking my dog. Not gonna happen.
And I’m not ashamed of it.
I’m always reading all of the time [zizek.gif]. I’m reading code, documentation, release notes, emails and texts… from the moment I wake til I sleep.
Put an interesting book in front of me and, well, I’m interested but getting my brain into a place where it can take in new reading sources is like getting my body in a place to take up running right after walking my dog. Not gonna happen.
And I’m not ashamed of it.
This is extremely interesting. I have many of your symptoms, including low test, and I was diagnosed with a a microadenoma on my pituitary gland 2 weeks ago.
This sounds like it might be good thing for the company. Having employees who have extra capacity is incredibly important for an organization that wants to get things done; if you're constantly hard at work on something important, when something else comes up (someone has a question, there's a bug or an outage, whatever), you either have to delay the thing you're already working on, or delay the thing that came up. This tends to have a cascade effect on most kinds of work, locking up all your people resources.
Plus, those other things you're doing sound like they overall, in the long-term, probably give you a wider range of knowledge, improving your usefulness.
Just wanted to add a voice against that sort of Taylorism perspective on work.
Plus, those other things you're doing sound like they overall, in the long-term, probably give you a wider range of knowledge, improving your usefulness.
Just wanted to add a voice against that sort of Taylorism perspective on work.
I'm definitely not in the same boat as the OP (trying to get away with doing the minimum), but because I hate to be the long pole on a project, I always try to get my pieces done well in advance of when they're required. As I work primarily on infra, I can usually manage to pull this off.
What this means is that often when crunch time hits, I've got excess capacity I can use to help "row the boat" (or maybe bail out water from leaks?). Excess capacity is extremely valuable as lots of folks are really bad at time estimation, so having some more senior "floaters" around can really help get projects completed.
Excess capacity is also useful for longer-term efforts. You need at least a few folks who can get out of the low-level crunch mindset and figure out what needs to be done for sustainability of efforts, or else you just end up in mega-crunch forever.
What this means is that often when crunch time hits, I've got excess capacity I can use to help "row the boat" (or maybe bail out water from leaks?). Excess capacity is extremely valuable as lots of folks are really bad at time estimation, so having some more senior "floaters" around can really help get projects completed.
Excess capacity is also useful for longer-term efforts. You need at least a few folks who can get out of the low-level crunch mindset and figure out what needs to be done for sustainability of efforts, or else you just end up in mega-crunch forever.
I've seen something similar backfire for a guy I worked with. He had this idea that he would get his shit done Monday-Thursday and have an easy WFH Friday.
People ended up doing most work towards end of sprint and Friday would usually be really busy - basically he always had to be present and management would offload priority stuff to him since he was done. So he'd end up busting his ass all week. Eventually he got tired and reverted to standard schedule - but this meant his relative performance dropped - I saw him get singled out in a review for performance drop (and not a lot of people noticed when he was going above the norm).
People ended up doing most work towards end of sprint and Friday would usually be really busy - basically he always had to be present and management would offload priority stuff to him since he was done. So he'd end up busting his ass all week. Eventually he got tired and reverted to standard schedule - but this meant his relative performance dropped - I saw him get singled out in a review for performance drop (and not a lot of people noticed when he was going above the norm).
I'm surprised he didn't just switch his "light day" to Monday or another weekday.
But the end result would have been the same - he wouldn't finish his tasks ahead of time, he wouldn't have spare capacity on Friday - management notices this and thinks he's underperforming
Seems like if he had done that, he would have been just like the rest of the team, getting everything done last-minute but still shipping stuff.
Obvious your mileage may vary, and timeframes matter. I'm talking about getting my pieces done weeks or months in advance of when we need to ship, not days or hours.
>if you're constantly hard at work on something important, when something else comes up (someone has a question, there's a bug or an outage, whatever), you either have to delay the thing you're already working on, or delay the thing that came up. This tends to have a cascade effect on most kinds of work, locking up all your people resources.
Working in a retail store/break-fix repair/MSP environment, for a small business in a small city, this is absolutely the case. There is nothing more frustrating than having three customer projects on your plate, all of which are important (think "the email server is down"), and then the doorbell or phone rings and you end up spending half an hour walking an old lady through resetting her facebook password. It's an absolutely massive productivity killer, as well as making the day feel longer.
More employees would be the normal solution, but that's not possible here (we've had more in the past, it wasn't financially viable, apparently). Unless of course they started paying commission based on what people actually got done instead of a regular wage, which I'm not a fan of. (Though to be fair, if we did switch to that, the one employee who barely does anything would either get his ass in gear, or leave, so win/win maybe?)
Working in a retail store/break-fix repair/MSP environment, for a small business in a small city, this is absolutely the case. There is nothing more frustrating than having three customer projects on your plate, all of which are important (think "the email server is down"), and then the doorbell or phone rings and you end up spending half an hour walking an old lady through resetting her facebook password. It's an absolutely massive productivity killer, as well as making the day feel longer.
More employees would be the normal solution, but that's not possible here (we've had more in the past, it wasn't financially viable, apparently). Unless of course they started paying commission based on what people actually got done instead of a regular wage, which I'm not a fan of. (Though to be fair, if we did switch to that, the one employee who barely does anything would either get his ass in gear, or leave, so win/win maybe?)
Sadly, from what I've read the commission-based approach often leads to worse long-term results, especially in software engineering. It depends on the kind of work, of course. The metric I use (and in this case I have no idea how others look at the problem) is the number of decisions the person has to make, especially having long-term effects or effects on other parts of the company. It's hard to make the right choice for the org when you stand to make a bigger chunk of money right now from the other option.
Yep, there was article that recently came up on Hacker News about maintaining some slack in your work schedule so that you can always be responsive when an issue comes up. I'm having trouble finding it because searching for "Slack" on Hacker News turns up a whole other range of things...
I feel like I am in a similar boat to OP. Often feeling like my regular work doesn't take up a full week and not trying to fill up every bit of that 40 hours. I also spend a lot of my time "poking around" and not doing my own work. Seeing what others are working on, learning random things that may or may not be applicable to my job. But performance reviews come around with words like "very responsive!" and "always knows what's going on in the program and can jump in to any project"
I feel like I am in a similar boat to OP. Often feeling like my regular work doesn't take up a full week and not trying to fill up every bit of that 40 hours. I also spend a lot of my time "poking around" and not doing my own work. Seeing what others are working on, learning random things that may or may not be applicable to my job. But performance reviews come around with words like "very responsive!" and "always knows what's going on in the program and can jump in to any project"
I'm assuming you're thinking of this Farnam Street post: https://fs.blog/2021/05/slack/
Yes! That is the one I was thinking of.
I think there's a tremendous value in having insurance/redundancy for supporting existing critical SW projects/infrastructure.
So while day to day there might not be immediate obvious work, much like a fire fighter or life guard; if the servers go down or coworkers leave there needs to be some ballast that can steer the ship.
That said, if you don't actually know much of the companies code base other than stuff you've directly written, you could very much be providing only perceived insurance versus actual insurance.
So while day to day there might not be immediate obvious work, much like a fire fighter or life guard; if the servers go down or coworkers leave there needs to be some ballast that can steer the ship.
That said, if you don't actually know much of the companies code base other than stuff you've directly written, you could very much be providing only perceived insurance versus actual insurance.
I used to work a tech support job overnight. Some nights I'd take two calls.
This was expected for the reasons you noted. When there was an emergency someone needed to be idle in the first place so they could immediately respond fully focused.
This was expected for the reasons you noted. When there was an emergency someone needed to be idle in the first place so they could immediately respond fully focused.
Same story for me, they just needed someone available for emergencies. As long as I could respond when pinged, they didn't care what I did with my time. My boss came in one morning, saw I was playing Fallout 4 on my (personal) laptop, and just asked if it was any good. I finished a lot of books I wanted to read, and had lots of time for personal projects, but ultimately the boredom and overnight schedule were too much. I'd rather feel productive, personally, but for a certain type of person that job would have been paradise.
I whish I had been productive.
I played a lot of Civilization 3 and Quake 3 on company time.
I played a lot of Civilization 3 and Quake 3 on company time.
If you're available for work you're working. Only taking 2 calls isn't slacking. They're paying you to be available and so they should because they're impinging on your free time.
They can pick up low priority tasks and if something of high priority comes in, it takes the precedence. An employee can also learn new tasks, rotate to different teams, cross train, fix old code / refactor, take a sabbatical-on-call, write documentation, etc which do not get in the way of taking on high-burst high-priority tasks. This is far better in terms of company's productivity than pretend-work that the OP is describing.
I don't think its better for the company as you suggest. It is possible to use good sense of prioritization and still have 'extra capacity'.
I don't think its better for the company as you suggest. It is possible to use good sense of prioritization and still have 'extra capacity'.
I don't really have enough information on the specific's of OP's job and what they're doing with their spare time. Reading tech books sounds like learning to me, but otherwise I don't know.
I think that it's really difficult for a lot of people to see the value they're providing outside of the proper business tasks they're assigned, and once there are tasks assigned to fill up all the time, everything breaks down. It doesn't matter if your task is something as irrelevant as "provide documentation regarding this vendor relationship," once it's on the board it can't be dropped and so you're no longer available to try the new tool people are looking for feedback on, or whatever.
The other thing doesn't even have to be high-priority, but if you're at a large enough organization, there are lots of things you'll realize can't be done well because too many people need to be involved, even if it's just a little bit of time. My org can't make any movement on, for example, API clients or API documentation because there are lots of different needs, but by the time you've gotten through the initial conversations it's a six months later, because people weren't available. There are many efforts we can't get done because that effort isn't priority for the team's involved, but requires time from people on those teams.
Ideally, of course, we try to minimize those things. But I've yet to hear of a sizeable org that has none of those kinds of things.
I think that it's really difficult for a lot of people to see the value they're providing outside of the proper business tasks they're assigned, and once there are tasks assigned to fill up all the time, everything breaks down. It doesn't matter if your task is something as irrelevant as "provide documentation regarding this vendor relationship," once it's on the board it can't be dropped and so you're no longer available to try the new tool people are looking for feedback on, or whatever.
The other thing doesn't even have to be high-priority, but if you're at a large enough organization, there are lots of things you'll realize can't be done well because too many people need to be involved, even if it's just a little bit of time. My org can't make any movement on, for example, API clients or API documentation because there are lots of different needs, but by the time you've gotten through the initial conversations it's a six months later, because people weren't available. There are many efforts we can't get done because that effort isn't priority for the team's involved, but requires time from people on those teams.
Ideally, of course, we try to minimize those things. But I've yet to hear of a sizeable org that has none of those kinds of things.
Eliyahu M. Goldratt has some great books explaining in great detail why this is the case:
https://www.amazon.com/x/dp/0884272079
https://www.amazon.com/x/dp/0884271536
Also, extra time is where new ideas and new projects come from.
[deleted]
It's better to spend free time on your own, actually. Managers don't like you to spend free time to dig around. I learned it hard way.
Or in productivity, utilization != throughput.
This is exactly why I've concluded trying to go my own way is the best long-term plan for me. Before learning about YC and HN and such, the thought never really occurred to me.
When I'm working on a personal project I'm really passionate about, my productivity is literally orders of magnitude higher than at any day job I've had. Months or years are compressed into days.
For any ambitious personal project that I'm intrinsically motivated by, I'm working on it and designing it pretty much every free moment I have. It's actually crazy to me how much I can get done if there's absolutely zero "ugh field" [1] inhibiting me. It doesn't feel like work at all. I'd happily take 20% of my current salary if it meant I could do that all day instead.
Even if it's stressful and even if I might fail miserably, I think life should be lived. If there's even the tiniest sliver of a chance that I could support myself just doing something like that, I know I'd be much happier. And if turning such a thing into a job or organization sucks the fun out of it, then I'll just keep trying again and again until I can find a project with a sufficiently viable enjoyment:financial stability ratio.
[1] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/EFQ3F6kmt4WHXRqik/ugh-fields (Regarding the author's username: yes, it's that one.)
When I'm working on a personal project I'm really passionate about, my productivity is literally orders of magnitude higher than at any day job I've had. Months or years are compressed into days.
For any ambitious personal project that I'm intrinsically motivated by, I'm working on it and designing it pretty much every free moment I have. It's actually crazy to me how much I can get done if there's absolutely zero "ugh field" [1] inhibiting me. It doesn't feel like work at all. I'd happily take 20% of my current salary if it meant I could do that all day instead.
Even if it's stressful and even if I might fail miserably, I think life should be lived. If there's even the tiniest sliver of a chance that I could support myself just doing something like that, I know I'd be much happier. And if turning such a thing into a job or organization sucks the fun out of it, then I'll just keep trying again and again until I can find a project with a sufficiently viable enjoyment:financial stability ratio.
[1] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/EFQ3F6kmt4WHXRqik/ugh-fields (Regarding the author's username: yes, it's that one.)
> This is exactly why I've concluded trying to go my own way is the best long-term plan for me. Before learning about YC and HN and such, the thought never really occurred to me.
Interesting. It also didn't really occur to me that being an employee might just not be for me, until I read this comment on HN over a year ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22520709. Although the reasoning is a somewhat different from yours. Excerpt:
> The reality is that if you care about your craft a tiny bit more than average, you will most likely end up feeling that you are overpaid for trivial work, that you could do so much more for the company, that your coworkers and hierarchy are apathetic to things that do not directly affect them (and will seek to avoid any change as much as possible). The more you stay in this situation, the likelier you are to burn out.
> If you are that kind of person, then you need to GTFO and start your own thing - have your own skin in the game
Interesting. It also didn't really occur to me that being an employee might just not be for me, until I read this comment on HN over a year ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22520709. Although the reasoning is a somewhat different from yours. Excerpt:
> The reality is that if you care about your craft a tiny bit more than average, you will most likely end up feeling that you are overpaid for trivial work, that you could do so much more for the company, that your coworkers and hierarchy are apathetic to things that do not directly affect them (and will seek to avoid any change as much as possible). The more you stay in this situation, the likelier you are to burn out.
> If you are that kind of person, then you need to GTFO and start your own thing - have your own skin in the game
I'd love to do that, but health insurance in the US makes it a nonstarter.
This really isn't as true as it's made out to be. I've done it, and with four dependents in tow as well.
If you currently work for a big company (or really any company with >50 employees if I recall) you can qualify to take COBRA when you leave. Doing so is expensive, sure, but it's really usually about the same price as private insurance but much better (because it's a group plan). You can elect COBRA for up to 18 months, or 24 in some cases.
When COBRA runs out and you aren't yet in a position where you can have the organization you've founded pay for it, you can either look at joining a PEO or you can simply buy private insurance. Yep, it's definitely not great, but it is coverage. Additionally, if you are doing your own thing, look into setting up an HRA for yourself/your company--it lets the company pay for your medical costs without even when you're buying private insurance.
Not sure how to pay for it out of the gate when you might be pre-revenue for a while? You still have a couple of options. First, saving specifically for this use case makes a lot of sense. Even better, if you are currently in an HSA-compatible plan at work, max out the account for the year because you can use HSA savings to pay for premiums. Or if you have a spouse or SO and can hop on their plan for a while, good call too.
In general, and speaking from the position of someone who has spent far more time than I wish to admit building models and forecasting health expenses for when I was on private insurance and doing my own thing, it can be done. The freedom was definitely worth the price.
If you currently work for a big company (or really any company with >50 employees if I recall) you can qualify to take COBRA when you leave. Doing so is expensive, sure, but it's really usually about the same price as private insurance but much better (because it's a group plan). You can elect COBRA for up to 18 months, or 24 in some cases.
When COBRA runs out and you aren't yet in a position where you can have the organization you've founded pay for it, you can either look at joining a PEO or you can simply buy private insurance. Yep, it's definitely not great, but it is coverage. Additionally, if you are doing your own thing, look into setting up an HRA for yourself/your company--it lets the company pay for your medical costs without even when you're buying private insurance.
Not sure how to pay for it out of the gate when you might be pre-revenue for a while? You still have a couple of options. First, saving specifically for this use case makes a lot of sense. Even better, if you are currently in an HSA-compatible plan at work, max out the account for the year because you can use HSA savings to pay for premiums. Or if you have a spouse or SO and can hop on their plan for a while, good call too.
In general, and speaking from the position of someone who has spent far more time than I wish to admit building models and forecasting health expenses for when I was on private insurance and doing my own thing, it can be done. The freedom was definitely worth the price.
This is really helpful info. I've been looking at this stuff a lot and I learned these things from you:
- COBRA and private health insurance are comparable in cost (I always assumed it was way more expensive)
- HSAs can be used to pay premiums
These are important pieces of information for figuring this out for me. I don't have four dependents, but I have two and don't have the option of jumping to a spouse's plan, so thanks for the additional context.
- COBRA and private health insurance are comparable in cost (I always assumed it was way more expensive)
- HSAs can be used to pay premiums
These are important pieces of information for figuring this out for me. I don't have four dependents, but I have two and don't have the option of jumping to a spouse's plan, so thanks for the additional context.
Glad to be helpful. As noted in the other comment and with all things, YMMV, but there's definitely reasonable options out there.
> you can use HSA savings to pay for premiums.
This is not true, as far as I know. I'd consult a CPA for an authoritative answer, but from https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/health-savings-account-h...
> HSA funds generally may not be used to pay premiums.
This is not true, as far as I know. I'd consult a CPA for an authoritative answer, but from https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/health-savings-account-h...
> HSA funds generally may not be used to pay premiums.
Good to note, this may have changed then. It was okay last time I did it.
HRAs on the other hand are a good vehicle for this.
EDIT: Ah, there is indeed an exception for continuation of coverage under COBRA which makes it acceptable to do so: https://dpath.com/hsa-and-cobra/
HRAs on the other hand are a good vehicle for this.
EDIT: Ah, there is indeed an exception for continuation of coverage under COBRA which makes it acceptable to do so: https://dpath.com/hsa-and-cobra/
Awesome, thanks for digging that up! My bad.
Cash is still king and joining something like kaiser is like $230/month for sub 30 yo.
Unfortunately, not nearly as affordable for a sole breadwinner supporting a family.
Indeed. I'm fortunate (or not, depending on one's perspective) in that I'm single and have no dependents. I pretty much only spend money on rent and food, and I'm more than happy living in a very tiny place with just a bed and a bathroom. (As long as it's a quiet place I'm not sharing and has a decent internet connection.)
I think you're correctly responding to incentives. If your hard work created a new product line for the company you work for, that made them millions, how much of that would you get? Close to 0%. So why should you work full-out for someone else?
This is me, but maybe to a lesser extent.
I tried doing my own thing but couldn’t keep at it after about 8 months.
I think the key is to at least have your expenses covered by your business. I couldn’t stand seeing my savings and retirement-fodder continue to dwindle even though I had plenty left in the bank.
Found a part-time job and now my days are less fun but also less stressed
I tried doing my own thing but couldn’t keep at it after about 8 months.
I think the key is to at least have your expenses covered by your business. I couldn’t stand seeing my savings and retirement-fodder continue to dwindle even though I had plenty left in the bank.
Found a part-time job and now my days are less fun but also less stressed
> Regarding the author's username: yes, it's that one.
Curious to know who the author is or what he is famous for? I searched his posts, it looks like there were no post for a decade before last year.
Curious to know who the author is or what he is famous for? I searched his posts, it looks like there were no post for a decade before last year.
Roko, of "Roko's basilisk".
He himself isn't really famous, but due to the infamous reaction his post on the subject received, his username will probably be etched into the history books for centuries. (Or at least a few fiction and non-fiction books here and there.)
He himself isn't really famous, but due to the infamous reaction his post on the subject received, his username will probably be etched into the history books for centuries. (Or at least a few fiction and non-fiction books here and there.)
I was in a similar rut. Not just professionally but academically as well for most of my life. Motivation had to be forced to do more than just enough to blend into the crowd. It took me saying enough is enough in my 40's to go get tested. Turns out I have ADHD. Getting therapy to deal with anxiety and depression stuff as well as getting on Adderall has done wonders.
I'm not suddenly working 40+ hours always in the zone. What has happened is that I've been better able to enjoy/engage with coworkers around helping them. Instead of feeling stuck and anxious, it's been easier to feel at ease at work and less fixated on metrics or usefulness. That engagement with my coworkers coupled with lowering how much effort was needed to do work that was previously seen as "busy" work has done wonders for my outlook about work.
In my case the benefit/problem of hyperfixation due to ADHD meant that when I had an interesting bit of work in front of me I could knock it out the park and it didn't feel like any effort. Those infrequent home runs were enough to make up for the times where I just couldn't be bothered to do other less interesting things. Didn't want to do them and because no one was asking me to do them it was ok that I didn't. Deep down I knew I was overcompensating in my strong areas to avoid the uninteresting items. This may not be you but if it is you may want to think on it. It's helped me outside of work as well. Parenting and dating.
I'm not suddenly working 40+ hours always in the zone. What has happened is that I've been better able to enjoy/engage with coworkers around helping them. Instead of feeling stuck and anxious, it's been easier to feel at ease at work and less fixated on metrics or usefulness. That engagement with my coworkers coupled with lowering how much effort was needed to do work that was previously seen as "busy" work has done wonders for my outlook about work.
In my case the benefit/problem of hyperfixation due to ADHD meant that when I had an interesting bit of work in front of me I could knock it out the park and it didn't feel like any effort. Those infrequent home runs were enough to make up for the times where I just couldn't be bothered to do other less interesting things. Didn't want to do them and because no one was asking me to do them it was ok that I didn't. Deep down I knew I was overcompensating in my strong areas to avoid the uninteresting items. This may not be you but if it is you may want to think on it. It's helped me outside of work as well. Parenting and dating.
[deleted]
thanks for posting this. I've been putting getting tested off for a long time. I don't think anyone ever suspected me of ADHD because even though I'd do the bare minimum in school I'd generally do well.
Just added a comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27596422
Figured I'd also comment it here since it has some useful resources that led me to get diagnosed and improve my life :)
Figured I'd also comment it here since it has some useful resources that led me to get diagnosed and improve my life :)
humbleMouse(3)
If your employer is happy with you, there is no reason to 'feel guilty'.
Being competent (top 20%) and working 3hrs / day is way more productive than a middle performer working 12 hrs / day.
In my personal experience:
I work with people that, in 5 minutes, I can accomplish more than they can in a day. And those people are not stupid / unmotivated.
I also work with people that, in 5 minutes, can accomplish more than I can in a day. I'm not stupid, or unmotivated.
Some people are just more experienced, have better judgement, are smarter etc.
Output is what counts, not time.
Being competent (top 20%) and working 3hrs / day is way more productive than a middle performer working 12 hrs / day.
In my personal experience:
I work with people that, in 5 minutes, I can accomplish more than they can in a day. And those people are not stupid / unmotivated.
I also work with people that, in 5 minutes, can accomplish more than I can in a day. I'm not stupid, or unmotivated.
Some people are just more experienced, have better judgement, are smarter etc.
Output is what counts, not time.
> Being competent (top 20%)
What sort of toxic exceptionalism led you to think that only 20% of workers are suitable for their jobs....
What sort of toxic exceptionalism led you to think that only 20% of workers are suitable for their jobs....
I think he’s referring to the 80/20 law, or Pareto distribution.
Essentially 80% of all corporate output is performed by 20% of the workforce, and continues down each chain (of the 20% doing 80% of the work, 20% of them are doing 80% and etc…)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_distribution
https://www.americanexpress.com/en-us/business/trends-and-in...
Essentially 80% of all corporate output is performed by 20% of the workforce, and continues down each chain (of the 20% doing 80% of the work, 20% of them are doing 80% and etc…)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_distribution
https://www.americanexpress.com/en-us/business/trends-and-in...
I would say that for the first 10 years of my programming career I was not competent. The next 5, I was marginally competent.
I like this essay on the topic:
http://www.norvig.com/21-days.html
I like this essay on the topic:
http://www.norvig.com/21-days.html
Yes, this! I've been doing software development as a job in some form or other for nearly 20 years, and I finally feel like I've really started to get the hang of it over the last couple of years ~wry grin~
I'm the lead data scientist in a corporation and only recently have I realized just how much I don't know. Give me another decade and hopefully I'll have learned most of those things.
What bastion of skill did you work at to think it's a higher percentage? 20 sounds right to me, maybe even lower.
I think what they're implying is that the bottom 80% are incompetent and should (presumably) feel bad. This is an interesting way to define competence.
[deleted]
A few years in any professional field like software engineering is enough.
Experience with humanity? Dunning-Kruger, Peter Principle, hubris, and just plain laziness compound nicely to make 20% seem like the right ballpark. There are a lot of people out there who are not very well suited to what they do, often through no real fault of their own. I don't think it's toxic to recognize that.
In reality it's probably more like 0%...
At 3 hours a day, you work as much as everyone else does. [0]
[0] https://www.inc.com/melanie-curtin/in-an-8-hour-day-the-aver...
[0] https://www.inc.com/melanie-curtin/in-an-8-hour-day-the-aver...
I did an HN poll, how many hours per day do you work including meetings and etc, and the answer was a normal distribution around 6 hours a day.
https://imgur.com/qdSltlM
The left axis is years of seniority.
https://imgur.com/qdSltlM
The left axis is years of seniority.
For a lot of people "meetings" aren't productive work. They may be necessary for communication but they are not actual work for a lot of people. It's entirely different if you're a manager or someone else whose main job is largely communication.
Here's how I phrased the question: https://strawpoll.com/47x15cf1
At least with work from home, I generally do not consider my meetings part of my work because I can go and do work in my meeting.
Did you segment this for presentation purposes, or were there only 3 ranges to choose from? I‘m asking because the latter could also mean that most people work 4h. Deducing [4;8] = 6 would not really work.
It all depends on how you count your hours.
When you are a developer, and you only count the minutes that you are at your computer coding, I highly doubt many would reach 3 hours per day.
When you are a developer, and you only count the minutes that you are at your computer coding, I highly doubt many would reach 3 hours per day.
i don't think you have enough data to be linking this as if it has meaning. N=104 is not a large sample size.
N=104 is a fine sample size for some things - especially given how much comfort you have for error.
This isn't a great study in general, because, realistically, there isn't a large range for the work hours. And the majority of them were grouped into one bucket => 4-8 hours.
That's the biggest problem.
The second biggest is that - presumably - not all of the respondents work 5 days per week.
The third is that - without a large sample size - your margin of error is going to cover a pretty big chunk. If your finding is 6 hours +/- 1 hour, 95% CI - that's pretty unsurprising.
You need a large sample size because there are ~115M workers in the US. What are the odds these 104 people are a decent representation of all ~115M voters??
If there's only 10,000 people this applies to that read HackerNews, then - if you fixed everything else - your CI wouldn't be super low.
This isn't a great study in general, because, realistically, there isn't a large range for the work hours. And the majority of them were grouped into one bucket => 4-8 hours.
That's the biggest problem.
The second biggest is that - presumably - not all of the respondents work 5 days per week.
The third is that - without a large sample size - your margin of error is going to cover a pretty big chunk. If your finding is 6 hours +/- 1 hour, 95% CI - that's pretty unsurprising.
You need a large sample size because there are ~115M workers in the US. What are the odds these 104 people are a decent representation of all ~115M voters??
If there's only 10,000 people this applies to that read HackerNews, then - if you fixed everything else - your CI wouldn't be super low.
It depends what you are measuring. It looks like the rough distribution is robust across seniority strata, hinting at the sample size probably being adequate.
104 seems enough to be meaningful. Might have a fair margin of error but that's ok. Why do you think otherwise?
Out of curiosity, what is the math you used to determine it's not a large sample size?
If I’m your boss, sitting next to you and in full view of your screen, and I’m there for 8 hours working, will the average person work a real 8 hours?
When I was a junior engineer, I quit a position over this. My manager had a direct line of sight from his desk into my screen and would give me passive aggressive comments if I wasn’t always on task.
I was the best performing engineer at that company, handling a contract that was worth >20% of their revenue by myself. They loved me at that company, and I wish I had been honest with the feedback I gave during my exit interview, but I just couldn’t tell the guy my issues were with him.
I was the best performing engineer at that company, handling a contract that was worth >20% of their revenue by myself. They loved me at that company, and I wish I had been honest with the feedback I gave during my exit interview, but I just couldn’t tell the guy my issues were with him.
Curious but did you not think to bring it up before quitting if it was such a big factor in your leaving? You'd have decent clout with your manager's manager in making sure he doesn't micromanage or give passive aggressive comments.
The company had less than 20 employees, everybody knew each other, and my manager was the owner, a self-made man with a really high opinion of himself due to survivorship bias. Also, it was my first job after my failed startup right out of college. It was really tough for me to give feedback, and I didn’t even know if I was just being lazy or the problem was the way things were being run.
Looking back at it, I understand why I quit, but back then I couldn’t even put it in words. Thankfully, I managed to keep all the friendships I made, including my ex boss.
Looking back at it, I understand why I quit, but back then I couldn’t even put it in words. Thankfully, I managed to keep all the friendships I made, including my ex boss.
> If I’m your boss, sitting next to you and in full view of your screen, and I’m there for 8 hours working, will the average person work a real 8 hours?
You probably get a few weeks of “real 8 hours” before your best employees find somewhere less oppressive to work and leave your micromanaged company.
Your bad employees will stay because they don’t have better options.
You probably get a few weeks of “real 8 hours” before your best employees find somewhere less oppressive to work and leave your micromanaged company.
Your bad employees will stay because they don’t have better options.
I wouldn't be.
I simply can't sit and focus working for 8 hours a day. Especially if its hard. I'm not a robot.
If I thought you were sitting there just to watch me to try and force me to work more, I'd leave.
I think for me doing dev, 4 hours is about the max before the quality of work drops off significantly.
I simply can't sit and focus working for 8 hours a day. Especially if its hard. I'm not a robot.
If I thought you were sitting there just to watch me to try and force me to work more, I'd leave.
I think for me doing dev, 4 hours is about the max before the quality of work drops off significantly.
If you're my boss watching me that closely, I'm going to be reading up on the OSS workforce sabotage manual.
If you're my boss and doing this, then you're getting none of your own work done.
If you're my boss and doing this, then you're going to see me leave the company.
That's me also. Maybe not fair as I'm more likely to be the boss since I have 20+ years of experience but no way am I working under those constraints.
if you're doing this I'm quitting and going to work in one of the thousands of firms where this doesn't happen, and potentially for better pay?
This question doesn't parse well. What does this "average person" have to do with me?
If you're my boss, and I'm reading your question, will the average boss communicate clearly?
If you're my boss, and I'm reading your question, will the average boss communicate clearly?
I can't remember the last time I worked more than 3 hours, being done by lunch time everyday is great. If I work in the afternoon it is just mandatory meetings.
Which is the best argument for WFH, really. At 3h a day + 1h commuting, it's 6h a day wasted for being in an office, crazy.
I work 7-hour days, but I might work 2 or 3 hours during that time. A lot of the time I find the work unbearable and can only bring myself to do it in short intervals. When the task is interesting, involves my skills, and I'm making progress, I can work for hours with almost no breaks. It really is an emotional thing. I won't force myself to do anything that is really painful because it ruins my mood for the whole day. At the same time I feel guilty of days I get little or nothing done and I feel trapped by the time constraint of the work day, even though I work from home. I would really like to make a deal where I work independent of a work day, with no set hours and no expectations, and not feel like I'm on call all day, so I can do things other than work through the day and not feel like I'm cheating.
work from home has been great for me in that I can compress work into non 9-5 bursts.
instead of slacking trough 8hours per day with an effective 2-3 hours of work for 5 days I take the 1 day(and/or night) were I work full concentration until exhausted (with small breaks) and take next day "off" (I'm connected still reachable in communication tools) to do personal stuff, side projects, watch TV, exercise, or just chores.
My overall productivity and mood are much better than when I was working from the office, but I'm afraid it's soon coming to an end unless I find a new job that's Ok with being remote.
instead of slacking trough 8hours per day with an effective 2-3 hours of work for 5 days I take the 1 day(and/or night) were I work full concentration until exhausted (with small breaks) and take next day "off" (I'm connected still reachable in communication tools) to do personal stuff, side projects, watch TV, exercise, or just chores.
My overall productivity and mood are much better than when I was working from the office, but I'm afraid it's soon coming to an end unless I find a new job that's Ok with being remote.
Daily stand ups that ask for updates kindof kills this, unless you purposely have uncommitted work and suddenly commit+push it during your “off” days
I do have daily standups toward the end of the day, and I just report the progress for the task at hand so far. I haven't told anyone that this is how I work but I don't bother to cook up the commit dates either.
it's not like I commit multiple times every single day, sometimes I'm working the conceptual design of the solution, doing some manual tests, finding representative datasets / test cases.
it's not like I commit multiple times every single day, sometimes I'm working the conceptual design of the solution, doing some manual tests, finding representative datasets / test cases.
Why? Can't you be honest about how you work in your daily stand ups?
It is impossible to work 7 hours a day.
That's a rather blanket statement. Depends on the work! I have certainly had paid employment where I frequently just sat down at 8am, programmed and programmed, realised about 3pm that I hadn't eaten yet, and stopped for a break. It would never happen in the office, but it happened quite regularly early on in the pandemic-induced WFH (thanks to me happening to be on the right project to allow it).
> Depends on the work! I have certainly had paid employment where I frequently just sat down at 8am, programmed and programmed, realised about 3pm that I hadn't eaten yet, and stopped for a break
Yup this happens to me as well, though some small breaks for fetching water/coffee might be included. Also in the office. I guess ensuring that employees know what to do and like what they do is a much better approach than staring over the back and making mean comments when slacking.
Yup this happens to me as well, though some small breaks for fetching water/coffee might be included. Also in the office. I guess ensuring that employees know what to do and like what they do is a much better approach than staring over the back and making mean comments when slacking.
by the end of my employment at Google, I was working about 2 hours a day (and getting Meets Expectations at L6, which is OK but not great). While I'd be online and available to respond to chat for 8 hours, I only exerted about 2 hours and most of that was just explaining to executives just how bad our fleet was.
Before that I had worked at least 6 hours a day. And I assumed that to be "right" i should be working at least 8.
From the feedback I got, I wasn't much more productive working more hours. At first I felt guilty and then I realized in my career that working harder isn't going to make any difference in terms of $, career security, or opportunity to work on cooler stuff. So, I just upped my anxiety meds and got back to working 2 hours a day.
Before that I had worked at least 6 hours a day. And I assumed that to be "right" i should be working at least 8.
From the feedback I got, I wasn't much more productive working more hours. At first I felt guilty and then I realized in my career that working harder isn't going to make any difference in terms of $, career security, or opportunity to work on cooler stuff. So, I just upped my anxiety meds and got back to working 2 hours a day.
> From the feedback I got, I wasn't much more productive working more hours
I've had this feedback too and I feel like it is likely not true. Really what it is is that your managers aren't paying much attention to your output and have sort of written you off for promotions, raises, etc.
This was feedback I got a couple of months after I had been working my ass off trying to impress management and then a couple of weeks before getting fired. C'est la vie.
I've had this feedback too and I feel like it is likely not true. Really what it is is that your managers aren't paying much attention to your output and have sort of written you off for promotions, raises, etc.
This was feedback I got a couple of months after I had been working my ass off trying to impress management and then a couple of weeks before getting fired. C'est la vie.
No, I'm pretty sure it's true. I had to spend a ton of time explaining what I did and its values to my managers, like writing "ELI5" docs and then suddenly when they "got it" they paid very close attention to my work, and formed a team around me and established scope and got headcount.
This is the messaging I got every single quarter: """David, your work is very good. All the people you work with say you're great and it's clear you are adding value, but you need to spend more time finding metrics that demonstrate that value and improving those. Also, if you want to get higher ratings, here is a whole bunch of extra management work and document-writing to do. If you do that, we can make a case for Exceeds and eventually a promotion"""
What I concluded was that I was better as an L6 than an L7 (L7 at google has a lot more responsibility, and far fewer job opptys) and I knew the value I was adding to the company without having to spend weeks cooking up metrics dashboards.
At google you're not going to be fired, if you're an FTE, with anything less than 6-9 months of feedback and runway to get back in the air (few exceptions)
This is the messaging I got every single quarter: """David, your work is very good. All the people you work with say you're great and it's clear you are adding value, but you need to spend more time finding metrics that demonstrate that value and improving those. Also, if you want to get higher ratings, here is a whole bunch of extra management work and document-writing to do. If you do that, we can make a case for Exceeds and eventually a promotion"""
What I concluded was that I was better as an L6 than an L7 (L7 at google has a lot more responsibility, and far fewer job opptys) and I knew the value I was adding to the company without having to spend weeks cooking up metrics dashboards.
At google you're not going to be fired, if you're an FTE, with anything less than 6-9 months of feedback and runway to get back in the air (few exceptions)
> What I concluded was that I was better as an L6 than an L7
This generalizes: often people want a promotion because it's the "next thing", but in many cases once you are mid career a promotion can make you pretty unhappy. Having a clear idea of how the work & responsibility will differ, and whether it is what you actually want.
This generalizes: often people want a promotion because it's the "next thing", but in many cases once you are mid career a promotion can make you pretty unhappy. Having a clear idea of how the work & responsibility will differ, and whether it is what you actually want.
My dad explained it to me like this when I was a kid. I ignored it for a long time, but it definitely stuck in the back of my head. I asked him if we wanted to get a promotion or be a manager but he said he thought his role as a documents library was fine.
"Do you know the Peter Principle? It's the idea that you get promoted when you do good work, but at some point, you'll be promoted to a level you're not competent to do, and get stuck there, or fired." He then expanded: "In this case, I perceive that the additional responsibilities and stress associated with a higher level position or management would make me unhappy, and I don't truly need the extra money."
For nearly my entire career I have pursued advancement with the utmost drive. Originally that was going to be grad school->postdoc->professor at major research university->make amazing discovery but at some point I realized that I was only ever going to be a professor as a minor reesarch university (and spend hundred+ hours a week treading water) and switched to the postdoc->software engineer->tech lead path. It wasn't until I did the Tech Lead role, got promoted to L6 and started to think about being a manager or getting to L7 (or getting Exceeds at L6) that I started to realize the truth of what my dad was saying. I've reached a level I'm perfecetly comfortable at, and could stay here until retirement. I was mainly chasing the advancement for ego and money reasons.
"Do you know the Peter Principle? It's the idea that you get promoted when you do good work, but at some point, you'll be promoted to a level you're not competent to do, and get stuck there, or fired." He then expanded: "In this case, I perceive that the additional responsibilities and stress associated with a higher level position or management would make me unhappy, and I don't truly need the extra money."
For nearly my entire career I have pursued advancement with the utmost drive. Originally that was going to be grad school->postdoc->professor at major research university->make amazing discovery but at some point I realized that I was only ever going to be a professor as a minor reesarch university (and spend hundred+ hours a week treading water) and switched to the postdoc->software engineer->tech lead path. It wasn't until I did the Tech Lead role, got promoted to L6 and started to think about being a manager or getting to L7 (or getting Exceeds at L6) that I started to realize the truth of what my dad was saying. I've reached a level I'm perfecetly comfortable at, and could stay here until retirement. I was mainly chasing the advancement for ego and money reasons.
This is very similar to my path. I grew up poor and had a bad time in school, so I didn't make it in college as well. Once I started working in the industry though, I went all in all the time. Made myself the kind of engineer that people from startups around. Became a manager, a co-founder, a director, and was incredibly close to accepting a CIO/CTO role. With each goal I found I was less and less happy, eventually I took a boring job at a consulting firm that works with boring industries and Fortune 500 types. I'm a principal engineer and architect and it's boring as hell but it pays incredibly well, is super stable, and I get to go train bjj for 2.5 hours twice a week during the middle of the work day. I'm happier than I've been since I landed that first programming job.
> With each goal I found I was less and less happy, eventually I took a boring job at a consulting firm that works with boring industries and Fortune 500 types. I'm a principal engineer and architect and it's boring as hell but it pays incredibly well, is super stable...
I relate with this a lot. Maybe it is that I burned out or its my Age (40 later this year), but after being 8 years churning along in startup leadership (as tech lead and then Head of Engineering in two startups), now I accepted an "Architect" role which does not have all the craziness of being "in charge" of the whole system all the time, and "herding cats" managing people. I am SO HAPPY now I cannot believe I landed this role, and I hope I keep it for some time.
I think the only time I am going to "run very fast" is if I make my own company. Which won't be VC backed (in all these years in VC land, I've not liked the VC model).
I relate with this a lot. Maybe it is that I burned out or its my Age (40 later this year), but after being 8 years churning along in startup leadership (as tech lead and then Head of Engineering in two startups), now I accepted an "Architect" role which does not have all the craziness of being "in charge" of the whole system all the time, and "herding cats" managing people. I am SO HAPPY now I cannot believe I landed this role, and I hope I keep it for some time.
I think the only time I am going to "run very fast" is if I make my own company. Which won't be VC backed (in all these years in VC land, I've not liked the VC model).
What no I want a promotion because the top tier of software engineers make salaries in the 2-300s while random marketing directors at midwestern insurance companies make that.
> you need to spend more time finding metrics that demonstrate that value and improving those
I have always had trouble with this type of nebulous goal.
I have always had trouble with this type of nebulous goal.
The challenge for me that I always struggled to explain to my leadership is that in many cases, the time investment to make an accurate metric dashboard greatly exceeds just fixing the problem and knowing anecdotally that it works (I worked with ML Whisperers, people whom I trusted a lot to understand the underlying problems and filter out noise).
For example, in my case (sending machines causing invisible data corruption to be replaced) I could have been promoted by doing the following:
1) Finding a metric that correlated with the user pain that I was fixing. In this case, it would be something like "number of jobs that die with a NaN in 1 hour" while running an A/B test (half the jobs in the fleet have some feature enabled) and showign that, with significance, our fix reduces the number of NaNs significantly. (data driven)
2) Demonstrate that the NaN rate corresponds to user productivity (this could be # of papers published, # of models trained per hour, whatever) and that high NaN rates really did have an effect (impact)
3) filter the data carefully, because the vast majority of nans are actually caused by user error, not silent data corruption (this was the actual hard part and nobody has a better solution than "run a determinstic calculation on 8 cores and use majority vote to find the baddie")
Run the above for 6 months, show it to all the execs in your division, get a few people from Search, Ads, YouTube or Research/DeepMind to say it increased revenue or decreased costs by 10%. Bingo: promotion, along wiht a full time job maintaining a dashboard with constant requests to add new features, fix code broken by other teams, and making even more presentations to execs on how dysfunctional it is.
Or, I could just focus on fixing the machines, hearing anecdotally from the ML Whisperers that it's working again, and go back to surfing hacker news and getting another 100 karma in a day.
For example, in my case (sending machines causing invisible data corruption to be replaced) I could have been promoted by doing the following:
1) Finding a metric that correlated with the user pain that I was fixing. In this case, it would be something like "number of jobs that die with a NaN in 1 hour" while running an A/B test (half the jobs in the fleet have some feature enabled) and showign that, with significance, our fix reduces the number of NaNs significantly. (data driven)
2) Demonstrate that the NaN rate corresponds to user productivity (this could be # of papers published, # of models trained per hour, whatever) and that high NaN rates really did have an effect (impact)
3) filter the data carefully, because the vast majority of nans are actually caused by user error, not silent data corruption (this was the actual hard part and nobody has a better solution than "run a determinstic calculation on 8 cores and use majority vote to find the baddie")
Run the above for 6 months, show it to all the execs in your division, get a few people from Search, Ads, YouTube or Research/DeepMind to say it increased revenue or decreased costs by 10%. Bingo: promotion, along wiht a full time job maintaining a dashboard with constant requests to add new features, fix code broken by other teams, and making even more presentations to execs on how dysfunctional it is.
Or, I could just focus on fixing the machines, hearing anecdotally from the ML Whisperers that it's working again, and go back to surfing hacker news and getting another 100 karma in a day.
> get a few people from Search, Ads, YouTube or Research/DeepMind to say it increased revenue or decreased costs by 10%.
How does that work? Can they genuinely tell that this is the case or do they just give an anecdote or rubber stamp?
I’m sure there are dozens/hundreds of other experiments that are going on too. How do you establish the causality at that scale?
How does that work? Can they genuinely tell that this is the case or do they just give an anecdote or rubber stamp?
I’m sure there are dozens/hundreds of other experiments that are going on too. How do you establish the causality at that scale?
I've actually noticed a completely inverse relationship between how hard & how many hours I'm (actually) working and how well I'm perceived by my peers and by management. This is unrelated to acute problems caused by errors on my part, or anything like that.
I don't get it, but if I feel like I'm working hard I now take it as a very serious alarm bell. Some of my best feedback has come when I was starting to get nervous because I felt like I was hardly doing anything.
I don't get it, but if I feel like I'm working hard I now take it as a very serious alarm bell. Some of my best feedback has come when I was starting to get nervous because I felt like I was hardly doing anything.
If you're working hard at a lot of places you're not getting noticed. If you spend more time talking to people (about work?) They think you're busy.
Sometimes the person who is fixing problems is seen as better than the one who is not - it's hard for people to tell which challenges are self inflicted.
Sometimes I think the way to get noticed is to spend money. Someone always has to approve your purchases so you get noticed. Sitting in your cube hammering out code, or design, or documentation isnt visible.
These things aren't optimal ways to measure effectiveness, but I think they all come into play.
Sometimes the person who is fixing problems is seen as better than the one who is not - it's hard for people to tell which challenges are self inflicted.
Sometimes I think the way to get noticed is to spend money. Someone always has to approve your purchases so you get noticed. Sitting in your cube hammering out code, or design, or documentation isnt visible.
These things aren't optimal ways to measure effectiveness, but I think they all come into play.
Your first sentence is actually restating the difference between maker schedules and manager schedules http://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html
> At first I felt guilty and then I realized in my career that working harder isn't going to make any difference in terms of $, career security, or opportunity to work on cooler stuff.
At least in FAANG, you mostly get paid for what your employer thinks you can do, in theory. Not for what you actually do, in practice.
If you're only self-interested - you're much better off spending all your time learning valuable skills and checking boxes to get promoted, and then job hopping - and doing nothing valuable for your employer again and again...
You're not going to move up if you spend all your burning through your backlog of work items, and you'll get next-to-no monetary reward or meaningful recognition.
At least in FAANG, you mostly get paid for what your employer thinks you can do, in theory. Not for what you actually do, in practice.
If you're only self-interested - you're much better off spending all your time learning valuable skills and checking boxes to get promoted, and then job hopping - and doing nothing valuable for your employer again and again...
You're not going to move up if you spend all your burning through your backlog of work items, and you'll get next-to-no monetary reward or meaningful recognition.
If you work too much you reach a point where you are tired enough that your productivity becomes NEGATIVE.
With negative I meant that you might spend 1h to do something that will then take more than 1h to be debugged/reworked/discussed and ultimately removed.
Or something that cause breakage that could be avoided.
You need to be well rested and clear-minded to foresee a problem and take the right decision, especially around software.
With negative I meant that you might spend 1h to do something that will then take more than 1h to be debugged/reworked/discussed and ultimately removed.
Or something that cause breakage that could be avoided.
You need to be well rested and clear-minded to foresee a problem and take the right decision, especially around software.
Thank you for slacking, sincerely.
Management tends to set a bar for effort based on how hard our peers work. In a competitive environment this can lead to an ugly race to burnout. By straining to meet expectations, devs inadvertently increase the pressure on each other to perform - higher and higher - to the point that 60+hr weeks are normalized.
By doing the minimum, you're pushing back against that and helping to keep the bar in a reasonable place. It is really a favor to other developers (and in many cases to the company, since burnout can destroy whole projects in the end).
Management tends to set a bar for effort based on how hard our peers work. In a competitive environment this can lead to an ugly race to burnout. By straining to meet expectations, devs inadvertently increase the pressure on each other to perform - higher and higher - to the point that 60+hr weeks are normalized.
By doing the minimum, you're pushing back against that and helping to keep the bar in a reasonable place. It is really a favor to other developers (and in many cases to the company, since burnout can destroy whole projects in the end).
They pay you the bare minimum needed to keep you, so why would you do anything but the bare minimum amount of work? Passion is things you are actually invested in, like hobbies, or your family, or a business you own, or a particularly interesting question, or career development, etc.
Congrats! You have found a comfortable job. Also my condolences, you've found a comfortable job.
Jobs like these are a warm and cozy trap. If you're spending time reading blogs you may not be spending your time in a way you can look back on with pride. Time is your ultimate limited resource and the one thing you will regret not spending more wisely.
Depending on your risk tolerance I recommend:
1. Quit, start a company of your own.
2. Quit, get one or more remote jobs.
3. Work on open source during work time.
4. Volunteer for something that benefits you and uses your time better (e.g. running training sessions on tech you know / want to know)
5. Reduce your life costs, accumulate money, retire early (FIRE)
Jobs like these are a warm and cozy trap. If you're spending time reading blogs you may not be spending your time in a way you can look back on with pride. Time is your ultimate limited resource and the one thing you will regret not spending more wisely.
Depending on your risk tolerance I recommend:
1. Quit, start a company of your own.
2. Quit, get one or more remote jobs.
3. Work on open source during work time.
4. Volunteer for something that benefits you and uses your time better (e.g. running training sessions on tech you know / want to know)
5. Reduce your life costs, accumulate money, retire early (FIRE)
For me the salvation currently lies in 3. Whenever I suffer from loss of motivation I think about what I actually want to code, and usually there is something. Dig deep in memory and ask why you choose to become a dev. For me it was the tiny code projects where some interesting phenomenon could be explored. There are always new things to learn and fun ideas to try. Doing it during work hours is ok under the pretext of "training".
Or, don't worry so much about retirement and enjoy life starting today. If you enjoy reading, do that. If you enjoy something else, do that. What you shouldn't do is get stressed or feel guilt about having free time.
Adding to this, I suggest finding projects that will keep your skills up with current trends. There's a famous Reddit post from a guy who slacked at work and let his skills atrophy.
having extra time makes 5) harder, not easier!
I don't necessarily agree with that.
Having free time enables you to either upskill yourself and to move to a more lucrative position later, or perhaps even work on side projects.
Some people freelance and both get practical skills and an additional source of income (even though a somewhat inconsistent one), whereas others enjoy trying to create their own SaaS solutions which could serve as a passive income, in the age of widespread web APIs and things like Stripe making payment processing easier.
Heck, some people actually enjoy doing things that are completely unrelated to the ICT sector, so woodworking/carpentry/farming and so on could also be both nice sources of income, as well as a way of getting some fresh air and/or exercise in an otherwise sedentary lifestyle.
Of course, even if some of the free time is spent not generating income but instead doing stuff like working out, that could also both improve one's quality of life and also cut down medical expenses, as well as indirectly make them more productive at their regular work due to better alertness, which may or may not further contribute to how effectively they can use those hours that they have.
Having free time enables you to either upskill yourself and to move to a more lucrative position later, or perhaps even work on side projects.
Some people freelance and both get practical skills and an additional source of income (even though a somewhat inconsistent one), whereas others enjoy trying to create their own SaaS solutions which could serve as a passive income, in the age of widespread web APIs and things like Stripe making payment processing easier.
Heck, some people actually enjoy doing things that are completely unrelated to the ICT sector, so woodworking/carpentry/farming and so on could also be both nice sources of income, as well as a way of getting some fresh air and/or exercise in an otherwise sedentary lifestyle.
Of course, even if some of the free time is spent not generating income but instead doing stuff like working out, that could also both improve one's quality of life and also cut down medical expenses, as well as indirectly make them more productive at their regular work due to better alertness, which may or may not further contribute to how effectively they can use those hours that they have.
I was and sort of still continue to be a mental wreck because of isolation / life stuff that changed because of covid. We were all locked in a room for basically a year, let's all just think about that for a second.
Yes, I currently for the lack of a better definition coast at my job. I work maybe 20hrs a week and get paid the full degree, increased hours a bit to still get a raise after my last review.
This is okay to heal and get back to normal, but will undoubtably stagnate your motivation, mental health and career advancement long-term.
I'm probably going to leave this current job (since perception of my velocity is now set in stone) take a 2-3 weeks off and then start interviewing for a job with better pay.
The way I see it, I'm just gaming the system to maximize my efficiency with a large bias for recovering my mental health. This is why companies are scared of work from home long term ;)
Yes, I currently for the lack of a better definition coast at my job. I work maybe 20hrs a week and get paid the full degree, increased hours a bit to still get a raise after my last review.
This is okay to heal and get back to normal, but will undoubtably stagnate your motivation, mental health and career advancement long-term.
I'm probably going to leave this current job (since perception of my velocity is now set in stone) take a 2-3 weeks off and then start interviewing for a job with better pay.
The way I see it, I'm just gaming the system to maximize my efficiency with a large bias for recovering my mental health. This is why companies are scared of work from home long term ;)
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My 2c: your value may be a net positive. Maybe not the largest positive, but remember: a lot of people actually are of negative value. You don’t distract coworkers. You don’t schedule meetings. You don’t overengineer or start crazy projects.
You’re just a living sign that we could work 3 hours a day and still create good value, and that our attempts at maximum efficiency isn’t actually working.
You’re just a living sign that we could work 3 hours a day and still create good value, and that our attempts at maximum efficiency isn’t actually working.
If people around you are happy and things get done when they need to and others don't get blocked, it sounds like you are doing a great job and are merely baffled at how effecient you've gotten!
If you have any interest, consider trying management? A lazy manager is a good manager, in the same long-term sense as a lazy developer is a good developer. Knowing what the real priorities are despite the bluster is a key manager skill. Nothing more wasteful than putting in tons of hours on a project that sounds important but ultimately isn't to the stakeholders that run the company, and the best managers have an incredible ability to read between the lines and predict what will end up mattering, and prioritize their own teams work accordingly.
If you have any interest, consider trying management? A lazy manager is a good manager, in the same long-term sense as a lazy developer is a good developer. Knowing what the real priorities are despite the bluster is a key manager skill. Nothing more wasteful than putting in tons of hours on a project that sounds important but ultimately isn't to the stakeholders that run the company, and the best managers have an incredible ability to read between the lines and predict what will end up mattering, and prioritize their own teams work accordingly.
While I don't seem to have all the information here, what I do have is enough to make a really good suggestion. I have some of the same issues with goofing off and such like that. So with this, a couple of questions.
1. Do you find yourself avoiding work you don't want to do outside of the job? 2. Was this a problem in school? 3. Have you talked to a doctor about this?
Number three is the most important. I have ADHD, and it sounds like you might too. Go see your doctor as soon as you can. Once you know what's going on, you can make yourself a plan to improve yourself.
1. Do you find yourself avoiding work you don't want to do outside of the job? 2. Was this a problem in school? 3. Have you talked to a doctor about this?
Number three is the most important. I have ADHD, and it sounds like you might too. Go see your doctor as soon as you can. Once you know what's going on, you can make yourself a plan to improve yourself.
I'm not saying this is what you're suggesting, but I also feel like medicating people with amphetamines so they can be 120% productive 40+ hours of week is also not the solution to everything
We're humans and especially those of us with curious brains, we get bored easily doing the same unstimulating tasks over and over again
Maybe it's fine if he does what he needs to do in 3 hours and slacks off for the rest of the day, if it's enjoyable to work with him, and does what he is paid for, I only feel like this 'work yourself to the bone to make someone else rich' culture has created all this pent up guilt
We're humans and especially those of us with curious brains, we get bored easily doing the same unstimulating tasks over and over again
Maybe it's fine if he does what he needs to do in 3 hours and slacks off for the rest of the day, if it's enjoyable to work with him, and does what he is paid for, I only feel like this 'work yourself to the bone to make someone else rich' culture has created all this pent up guilt
I agree that you shouldn't work yourself to the bone for someone else's profit, but ADHD can be insidiously crippling, at least for me.
Seeing a doctor and getting medication (I don't take amphetamines) has been super helpful for everything from feeling better about my work and being more productive, to handling day-to-day life. The biggest improvement is just in conversation/meetings/engaging with people, where I don't find myself wondering about bizarre hypotheticals instead of paying attention to the topic at hand.
Seeing a doctor and getting medication (I don't take amphetamines) has been super helpful for everything from feeling better about my work and being more productive, to handling day-to-day life. The biggest improvement is just in conversation/meetings/engaging with people, where I don't find myself wondering about bizarre hypotheticals instead of paying attention to the topic at hand.
Might be TMI but your "bizarre hypotheticals" triggered me.
What often occurs in conversations in my life is... We chat, we disagree on a random point and the second we start arguing it, my brain brute forces every single path possible. What if they say this? Then what if I say that, or this, or even that? And it keeps on branching out.
Eventually I come back to the chat, after what seemed like an eternity but was in fact a couple of seconds, and I am bored and dismissive because I know where the arguements will lead, and they do go one of these paths 99% of the time.
What often occurs in conversations in my life is... We chat, we disagree on a random point and the second we start arguing it, my brain brute forces every single path possible. What if they say this? Then what if I say that, or this, or even that? And it keeps on branching out.
Eventually I come back to the chat, after what seemed like an eternity but was in fact a couple of seconds, and I am bored and dismissive because I know where the arguements will lead, and they do go one of these paths 99% of the time.
> my brain brute forces every single path possible. What if they say this? Then what if I say that, or this, or even that? And it keeps on branching out.
To me this just sounds like intelligence. Not a disorder.
To me this just sounds like intelligence. Not a disorder.
Yes I agree if it's impacting life so much then it's best to follow the doctor's recommendations, that's why I wanted to be a bit careful with my comment to not sound dismissive to those who genuinely need help
ADHD and WFH have basically been a death sentence for me in regards to my output and velocity. Some days are good, some days are horrible. As someone who received their ADHD diagnosis at 22 (well after I fumbled through a CS degree wondering if I was a moron, while also working part time at startups) it changed my life. Ignorant people will say "nobody needs stimmies" but 5mg Adderall has legitimately changed my life and given me another 3/4 of mental capacity back.
I've been extremely lucky with WFH actually significantly improving my productivity. My ADHD in an office environment was significantly worse. Coworkers coming to talk to me, overhearing conversations from the break room, unlimited free snacks, etc. I'm also fortunate to be able to have a dedicated space at my home to use for work so I can still have that "disconnect" at the end of the day.
Good thing you live in <current year>, I guess you would have been screwed if you lived in a society before Adderall and ADHD existed, eh?
They might have been perfectly okay in the Manhattan Project doing varied but unplanned fast-paced research, as a WWII fighter pilot, doing subsea welding for the oil industry, being a scout in any number of military forces, being a professional athlete on the bleeding edge of rock climbing and so on.
I think the rise of ADHD as a common impediment correlates very strongly with a society that has few good career options for people who have these neurological variations.
I think the rise of ADHD as a common impediment correlates very strongly with a society that has few good career options for people who have these neurological variations.
Yeah having the same device, software, and websites I use for work also able to connect to things I use for not work does not help my ADHD.
I'd likely be a chemist or a plumber in those days. Quite frankly, I'd likely be happier today if I was a plumber - however although I really liked chemistry, I'm glad that's not my occupation since a friend of mine has a PhD in chemistry from Stanford and has been unemployed since graduation.
I just wanted to say that I also suffer from this problem. I think I only do real work a couple of hours per week.
One thing that works for me is pair programming, but I can't do that every day because it is so exhausting.
One thing that works for me is pair programming, but I can't do that every day because it is so exhausting.
It is so interesting to think of this dilemma in tech/computer oriented jobs vs something that requires one to be present(retail/customer service/etc...).
I work as a dev now, but worked as a gas station clerk for 6 years starting at the age of 16. If I came in for an 8 hour shift, I honestly think 7 of it was spent doing 'work'. I would have to pretend to go to the bathroom for a #2 just to get a 5 minute breather(and thats not to say the environment was oppressive, but the work standard was high and we felt valued at the company).
I work as a dev now, but worked as a gas station clerk for 6 years starting at the age of 16. If I came in for an 8 hour shift, I honestly think 7 of it was spent doing 'work'. I would have to pretend to go to the bathroom for a #2 just to get a 5 minute breather(and thats not to say the environment was oppressive, but the work standard was high and we felt valued at the company).
Einstein spent the better part of three years wandering around the Princeton campus before he presented his theory on relativity. During that time he was mocked by his peers for not "working hard". In retrospect, Einstein noted the time he spent ambling the campus allowed him the space required to finish his postulation.
Focus on you. Don't look at the other animals in the cage to try and measure yourself.
Focus on you. Don't look at the other animals in the cage to try and measure yourself.
That's great until the economy changes and you have to start competing again.
I had a slack job for my mid career when I should have been busting my ass and positioning myself for my later career. I wasted tons of time and regret it. You may have ADHD. You may just be lacking self discipline. I don't know. You should get your shit together now when you have the option and not wait for life circumstances to demand it.
It's not about what you owe the company. It's about what you owe yourself.
I had a slack job for my mid career when I should have been busting my ass and positioning myself for my later career. I wasted tons of time and regret it. You may have ADHD. You may just be lacking self discipline. I don't know. You should get your shit together now when you have the option and not wait for life circumstances to demand it.
It's not about what you owe the company. It's about what you owe yourself.
What does busting your ass for later career look like?
To me that’s stuff you do outside of work, because at work you just get more of the same level work as the level you are on.
So you need to study/network outside of your job to get ahead.
To me that’s stuff you do outside of work, because at work you just get more of the same level work as the level you are on.
So you need to study/network outside of your job to get ahead.
> at work you just get more of the same level work as the level you are on
You get what you're given, but you can find work and go the extra mile. It's dependent on the job, sure. Some places might punish you for trying too hard. That hasn't been my experience as a SWE though.
> So you need to study/network outside of your job to get ahead.
Yes, definitely.
You get what you're given, but you can find work and go the extra mile. It's dependent on the job, sure. Some places might punish you for trying too hard. That hasn't been my experience as a SWE though.
> So you need to study/network outside of your job to get ahead.
Yes, definitely.
Working for several hours a day is unfeasible for most people, unless you're working on something you actively love.
From my perspective, as long as you're not holding anyone back, I think you're doing a decent job of modulating your energy for moments when you need it, as opposed to marathon running all day long.
From my perspective, as long as you're not holding anyone back, I think you're doing a decent job of modulating your energy for moments when you need it, as opposed to marathon running all day long.
As someone with RSI, this is absolutely a good way to look at it. I've been working on rehabbing my hands and shoulders so I can work at longer / more intensive stretches, but I can only keep it up for a few weeks before I need some lighter duty work. I've had to give up video games and recreational keyboarding, but it means I can continue to work and put in the hours when needed.
I had severe RSI and managed to overcome it with constant massaging every hour for about a month. It turns out most carpal tunnel can be alleviated with massaging your forearms. Learned this the hard way...
I tried doing the stretches, but it ended up just creating scar tissue (wouldn't recommend).
I tried doing the stretches, but it ended up just creating scar tissue (wouldn't recommend).
Very common. I know several people in this same boat. They're all smart and can get things done when they're motivated. Unfortunately, most of this work is not too interesting so 70%+ of the time they're bored, half checked-out, doing the minimum, browsing HN, reddit, or checking their stock portfolios.
I think that's the root of the problem in software development. Development requires VERY smart people to solve hard(ish) problems. The catch, the majority of problems are stupid simple and easy. So smart developers are generally engaged one or two weeks out of the year, maybe one or two months if there are real tough problems to solve. Then is goes back to wiring up login screens or explaining how JWT's work for the 100th time or setting up DB models and access. It's terribly boring and very uneven. After a while you stop caring until the world is on fire.
Most people work a bit, then slack a bit, or just pace themselves at a constant sustainable rate. You're doing fine.
What you don't want to find yourself in was my system administration job. At first there was plenty to do, my manager had me keep a log, so if a problem re-arose I could solve it more quickly. I did that, and things were good. After a few years, I'd done such a good job that I had a lot of slack time. There were some changes I wanted to make to the database, so I built a prototype of a new system that would have made things a lot better for everyone, and the production manager wouldn't even TRY it. I did this three different times before I finally gave up.
For the last few years, I showed up, jumped on any problem that arose, and waiting for quitting time, all the while knowing that I wasn't really delivering much value (other than absorbing uncertainty as far as the computers were concerned). Eventually economics caught up, and they outsourced the job.
You've got a steady flow of work... you'll be fine.
What you don't want to find yourself in was my system administration job. At first there was plenty to do, my manager had me keep a log, so if a problem re-arose I could solve it more quickly. I did that, and things were good. After a few years, I'd done such a good job that I had a lot of slack time. There were some changes I wanted to make to the database, so I built a prototype of a new system that would have made things a lot better for everyone, and the production manager wouldn't even TRY it. I did this three different times before I finally gave up.
For the last few years, I showed up, jumped on any problem that arose, and waiting for quitting time, all the while knowing that I wasn't really delivering much value (other than absorbing uncertainty as far as the computers were concerned). Eventually economics caught up, and they outsourced the job.
You've got a steady flow of work... you'll be fine.
My company gets utility from me when I'm sleeping, showering, or sitting on the throne. I'm thinking about my work tasks and how to solve them in those situations. When I'm at my desk in my open plan office (pre-COVID), the constant interruptions meant not getting any work done.
To me it sounds like the fact that you're "slacking" for five hours a day is what enables you to complete your work effectively during the other three hours.
I expect that if you forced yourself to slack less and do more hours of "real work", you would get less done in more time, and with degraded quality.
If you can change your perspective and feel less guilty, I recommend you keep doing what you do for both your sake and your employer's. It's a long term win-win.
I expect that if you forced yourself to slack less and do more hours of "real work", you would get less done in more time, and with degraded quality.
If you can change your perspective and feel less guilty, I recommend you keep doing what you do for both your sake and your employer's. It's a long term win-win.
I look at this from a physics perspective. I generally have 3-4 hours a day where I am making something (as I take on more leadership it goes down to 2-3 hours a day). During this time I am doing 'real work', i.e. applying force to our goal posts to move them toward delivery. Simply said, work is force over time and force = mass * acceleration. If I look at that as development force = knowledge x development effort, then my 'real work' is increasing my development effort. However, the time I spend refreshing, increasing my skills and my general knowledge, is increasing my knowledge, aka mass. Therefore it still increases the amount of work I can do. I can do more with 4 hours of work than many junior devs I know can do with a week. Not because I'm special, but just because I've done it before and now the technologies.
I'm very similar, or was. I was diagnosed with ADHD aged 30. If I'm working on something I enjoy or find interesting, I'm all in on it, obsessed. If I find it slightly dull or tedious, I'll have to fight with myself to get it done, just turns into relentless scrolling through hacker news, or get distracted with other things.
The trick, I've found, is to either find ways to enjoy what you're working on if you don't enjoy it. For example, gamifying it or finding some other challenge in it. Or try to insist on specialising on what you do enjoy working on more.
Read the following as well (if, of course you haven't already): - Flow by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi - Deep Work by Cal Newport - Hyperfocus by Chris Bailey
Oh, and don't beat yourself up for not feeling 100% productive or enthusiastic all the time. Most of this expectation is a tech culture thing and it's just silly. Most jobs don't expect this, most jobs people assume you're sat around talking and eating biscuits several hours a day. Our brains aren't designed to work in well defined, lengthy chunks of time, it's absurd we expect that.
As a few others haven't mentioned as well, it's worth getting screened for ADHD if you haven't already, the meds can really really help. They were a revelation for me anyway.
The trick, I've found, is to either find ways to enjoy what you're working on if you don't enjoy it. For example, gamifying it or finding some other challenge in it. Or try to insist on specialising on what you do enjoy working on more.
Read the following as well (if, of course you haven't already): - Flow by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi - Deep Work by Cal Newport - Hyperfocus by Chris Bailey
Oh, and don't beat yourself up for not feeling 100% productive or enthusiastic all the time. Most of this expectation is a tech culture thing and it's just silly. Most jobs don't expect this, most jobs people assume you're sat around talking and eating biscuits several hours a day. Our brains aren't designed to work in well defined, lengthy chunks of time, it's absurd we expect that.
As a few others haven't mentioned as well, it's worth getting screened for ADHD if you haven't already, the meds can really really help. They were a revelation for me anyway.
Check threads here: https://www.teamblind.com/
It is a way of life at FAANG, Uber, etc.
Don’t feel guilty. These companies will eventually realize they need to change, or perhaps they are okay with it.
It is a way of life at FAANG, Uber, etc.
Don’t feel guilty. These companies will eventually realize they need to change, or perhaps they are okay with it.
Why would they change if they print money?
I wasn’t arguing for these companies having to change. In fact, I am glad it suits the life of people who enjoy that lifestyle. I was arguing that whatever imbalance will fix itself.
in which case, this style of work is OK and should be accepted instead of shamed
Just because something is profitable for the employers does not mean it is ethically or morally right.
In the past I’ve hired engineers on a per hour basis; we agree on the hour count while we plan the tasks.
Sometimes it takes them more hours than we planned, sometimes less, but our contract stays the same. There is nothing moral/amoral around them being efficient or padding their estimates IMHO.
Sometimes it takes them more hours than we planned, sometimes less, but our contract stays the same. There is nothing moral/amoral around them being efficient or padding their estimates IMHO.
i think project based billing is more fair so the last sentence doesn’t have to happen.
Estimating hours for a project is essentially project based billing, it is just more granular.
I don’t think the developers who only work 3 hours a day when they are employed full time are being amoral. If they can do it, more power to them.
I often work 6-8hrs a day with meetings taking 40% of my time. During crunch, I work far more. I don’t think there is anything amoral when the system doesn’t work for me either.
I don’t think the developers who only work 3 hours a day when they are employed full time are being amoral. If they can do it, more power to them.
I often work 6-8hrs a day with meetings taking 40% of my time. During crunch, I work far more. I don’t think there is anything amoral when the system doesn’t work for me either.
i don't understand what's immoral in this case?
Slack is our natural born right.
---
> Church members seek to acquire Slack and believe it will allow them the free, comfortable life (without hard work or responsibility) they claim as an entitlement.
> Sex and the avoidance of work are taught as two key ways to gain Slack.
> Davidoff believes that Slack is "the ability to effortlessly achieve your goals". Cusack states that the Church's description of Slack as ineffable recalls the way that Tao is described, and Kirby calls Slack a "unique magical system".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_SubGenius#Conspi...
---
> Unlike those Christians and their tirades about Original Sin, The Church teaches us that all of us, humans and SubGenii alike, are born with Original Slack. As part of their mission to suppress and subjugate the SubGenii, The Conspiracy starts stealing your Slack from the day you are born.
https://subgenius.fandom.com/wiki/Slack
---
> Church members seek to acquire Slack and believe it will allow them the free, comfortable life (without hard work or responsibility) they claim as an entitlement.
> Sex and the avoidance of work are taught as two key ways to gain Slack.
> Davidoff believes that Slack is "the ability to effortlessly achieve your goals". Cusack states that the Church's description of Slack as ineffable recalls the way that Tao is described, and Kirby calls Slack a "unique magical system".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_SubGenius#Conspi...
---
> Unlike those Christians and their tirades about Original Sin, The Church teaches us that all of us, humans and SubGenii alike, are born with Original Slack. As part of their mission to suppress and subjugate the SubGenii, The Conspiracy starts stealing your Slack from the day you are born.
https://subgenius.fandom.com/wiki/Slack
You’ve got management written all over you!
can someone do EL15 of it
He just said he felt guilty about extracting maximal value for minimum return. That's the opposite of management.
work smarter, not harder ;-)
You get paid for the value you deliver, not the effort exerted.
If the minimum wasn't good enough it wouldn't be the minimum.
Think of it this way. If you can get away with so little work while being recognized as a solid contributor, you must be extremely competent: where a newbie sounds the entire day on busywork to find a solution, you just see the solution and spend the rest 7 hours reading HN. Also, when was the last time your manager approached you with a conversation "hey, out company is doing much better, so we wanted to double your pay and give you this expense card to pay for flights, hotels and restaurants, wherever those might be"? The company isn't seeking an opportunity to spend more money on you, so you should be doing the same. It's just a business relationship.
You're really selling me on moving my company to a 4 day work week.
Do it. Your employees will love you and you will be able to recruit talent you wouldnt otherwise.
I suspect five shorter days would work better (for an employer).
Don't be too hard on yourself. Don't get into survival mode. Studies show that when people feel guilty/stressed for a behavior, they fall into the behaviors that they are trying to avoid. [1][2]
[1] https://guilfordjournals.com/doi/abs/10.1521/jscp.24.2.254.6...
[2] https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037/0003-066X.40....
[1] https://guilfordjournals.com/doi/abs/10.1521/jscp.24.2.254.6...
[2] https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037/0003-066X.40....
I wanted to start a business and work the bare minimum, but I felt guilty about it - even though my bare minimum is still impressive to my employers.
My solution was to just switch jobs and take a pay cut. I work a lot less now (with the same kind of arrangement), but I feel a lot less guilty about spending chunks of my time on my own thing.
Relevant pg essay, under the 'working harder' heading: http://www.paulgraham.com/wealth.html?viewfullsite=1
My solution was to just switch jobs and take a pay cut. I work a lot less now (with the same kind of arrangement), but I feel a lot less guilty about spending chunks of my time on my own thing.
Relevant pg essay, under the 'working harder' heading: http://www.paulgraham.com/wealth.html?viewfullsite=1
There's a deeply ingrained conviction (that I'm also a victim of) from generation of our grandparents and blue collar jobs that the work ain't real work unless you put 8hr of sweat and pain and you're dead at the end of the day.
Things work differently in 21st century highly intellectual job. Doing that is a straight recipe for burnout.
I'm the kind of person who typically overly engages in every job but I'm tired full time as a result. I actually think I need to work less (but be better organized).
Things work differently in 21st century highly intellectual job. Doing that is a straight recipe for burnout.
I'm the kind of person who typically overly engages in every job but I'm tired full time as a result. I actually think I need to work less (but be better organized).
I spent ~6.5 years at Google working an hour a day at the most (cue Office Space, meeting with the Bobs) with nobody being the wiser. I met or exceeded all performance review expectations. When I left, my colleagues complimented me on my "work ethic". It wasn't just me doing that either. Most ppl are too busy focusing on whatever life goals and ladderisms they've assigned to themselves to really scrutinize what others are doing.
There is a certain subset of programmers who get away with this at work. But if you're posting this, it sounds like you're torn between the comfortable quality of life you're living now, and the boredom and knowing you could be doing more.
Some ideas:
* Can you do a rotation on a different team? (For example, if you're devops, you might learn a lot on SRE/ops.)
* Can you start side projects at work, for work?
Some ideas:
* Can you do a rotation on a different team? (For example, if you're devops, you might learn a lot on SRE/ops.)
* Can you start side projects at work, for work?
3 hours a day? This seems completely reasonable. I'm under the impression the vast majority of developer are in a similar boat.
You sound exactly like me. I've mostly just accepted the fact that this is the best way for me to work. I can buckle down and grind out a full day of work some days but not for many days in a row.
I've come to the conclusion that I am usually as productive/more productive than those around me and I tend to think it is _because_ of the way I work rather than in spite of it. When I do sit and do some work I am less stressed and can use a couple hours of motivation to knock out a days work in 2-3 hours usually in the morning. The rest of the day might be meetings/exercise/reading/social media/youtube and perhaps an additional 30-60min of work.
Ultimately I've found that the reason not to "slack" so much is less because I am not productive enough and more because when slacking I often lean on high dopamine activites like social media/youtube etc. that ultimately make me less happy than being with friends/going for a walk/learning something new.
I will also say I have done the "grind" for months at a time and looking back I know that I would have gotten the same amount of real work done at my current pace. The issue is the added stress makes it harder for me to think, I often end up working on the wrong problem as I am trying to move too quickly, and having too many pending tasks makes it harder to make decisions/prioritize.
I've also worked with those that grind and I've noticed they don't always work on high priority tasks. Often they are too focused on grinding they might not be able to step back and realize they could use their time better.
I've come to the conclusion that I am usually as productive/more productive than those around me and I tend to think it is _because_ of the way I work rather than in spite of it. When I do sit and do some work I am less stressed and can use a couple hours of motivation to knock out a days work in 2-3 hours usually in the morning. The rest of the day might be meetings/exercise/reading/social media/youtube and perhaps an additional 30-60min of work.
Ultimately I've found that the reason not to "slack" so much is less because I am not productive enough and more because when slacking I often lean on high dopamine activites like social media/youtube etc. that ultimately make me less happy than being with friends/going for a walk/learning something new.
I will also say I have done the "grind" for months at a time and looking back I know that I would have gotten the same amount of real work done at my current pace. The issue is the added stress makes it harder for me to think, I often end up working on the wrong problem as I am trying to move too quickly, and having too many pending tasks makes it harder to make decisions/prioritize.
I've also worked with those that grind and I've noticed they don't always work on high priority tasks. Often they are too focused on grinding they might not be able to step back and realize they could use their time better.
I think a lot of people could get their work done in ~3 hours a day if they were actually focused for that long. I think a big chunk of folks are in your shoes and just don't recognize it or they think of all of those other things you do as part of work.
I know people who "waste" a huge amount of their time talking to people in the office and probably do less than ~3 of real work a day. They also distract others. But they would call that team building.
I know people who "waste" a huge amount of their time talking to people in the office and probably do less than ~3 of real work a day. They also distract others. But they would call that team building.
This describes my situation pretty well. Working remotely makes "getting away with it" all too easy. Unfortunately the effect it's having on me is a great deal of anxiety. Though the anxiety is probably a combination of many factors: lack of social life/friends post-graduation, feeling stuck at a job I don't enjoy, wanting to move out of my parents' house but not knowing where to go.
I used to always try to be productive during my workday, and would feel extremely guilty for getting distracted. Over time, however, I have drifted steadily towards the bare minimum because I feel like I was always doing the most by far. Now I consider it productive time spent if I learn something new or work on side projects. I still feel guilty, but not nearly as much as I used to.
I'm guessing it's a spectrum in terms of "slacking off" at work. Like yourself I'm quite productive with my work and feel like I can accomplish the same amount in 30 minutes as some others can in a single day.
This gives me wiggle room, working from home I'll take a longer break at lunch, going for a walk after eating and I like to read up on tech news etc as well.
I wouldn't say I do the bare minimum, but I also have a strong sense of not letting people down.
That being said I'm quitting my job as I'm not super motivated by the work and have a side project that I get joy out of every time I touch it.
One thing to think about in terms of slacking off is what you're getting besides money in terms of the work you're doing. I suspect that if you aren't getting much personal growth from the work then it's easy to see how you'd be unmotivated to put in more than the bare minimum. In which case you might want to change job / project etc and work on something you feel will allow you to grow.
This gives me wiggle room, working from home I'll take a longer break at lunch, going for a walk after eating and I like to read up on tech news etc as well.
I wouldn't say I do the bare minimum, but I also have a strong sense of not letting people down.
That being said I'm quitting my job as I'm not super motivated by the work and have a side project that I get joy out of every time I touch it.
One thing to think about in terms of slacking off is what you're getting besides money in terms of the work you're doing. I suspect that if you aren't getting much personal growth from the work then it's easy to see how you'd be unmotivated to put in more than the bare minimum. In which case you might want to change job / project etc and work on something you feel will allow you to grow.
I spend a lot of time thinking through what needs to be done and how. I don’t stare at a screen and just bang code out anymore.
This sounds like the flight, fight, freeze response. You're lacking stimulation so you coast along until you need to work then you fight.
More: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26371848
More: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26371848
One possibility is that whatever you've been doing in these companies just isn't your thing.
Are you sure you're in the right career? Maybe there's something else that you'd be good at and actually interested in?
I've found myself in this sort of situation a few times, and every time it's been due to either me picking up a job for the wrong reasons, or the job just not being a good fit to begin with. I'm not saying this is the case for you necessarily, but you should probably think about it a little bit, and if it is, find something more stimulating to do. Unless, of course, you find the situation you're in acceptable to you.
Are you sure you're in the right career? Maybe there's something else that you'd be good at and actually interested in?
I've found myself in this sort of situation a few times, and every time it's been due to either me picking up a job for the wrong reasons, or the job just not being a good fit to begin with. I'm not saying this is the case for you necessarily, but you should probably think about it a little bit, and if it is, find something more stimulating to do. Unless, of course, you find the situation you're in acceptable to you.
I don't think what you call "slacking around" is actually bad. You are keeping abreast and learning new things from relevant sites. That's a big part of your job and a tremendous value to you and your employer.
Doing it the other way around in a really small team and a lot of pressure still makes you feel guilty, you do too much work (even working an 8 hour day), burn out and end up very stressed. So careful what you wish for!
And maybe just to assuage some of the guilt, most guidelines for working at a desk say you should take a break from your screen/sitting for 5-10 minutes every hour. Over an 8 hour day that's 40-80 minutes a day just by itself.
+1. I completely feel that and I definitely slacked more when employed by someone else doing something boring.
I was similarly surprised by hearing great things about me and how fast things get done (man, I did 10x the work for my own startup in the same time), but I think it boils down more to interpersonal skills, chatting on slack and showing my knowledge, solving problems quickly in the presence of others. People's feedback is not a good metric to estimate how much work gets done.
At the same time I can work hours straight with no distraction if I enjoy the problem or if I'm working on my business.
I was similarly surprised by hearing great things about me and how fast things get done (man, I did 10x the work for my own startup in the same time), but I think it boils down more to interpersonal skills, chatting on slack and showing my knowledge, solving problems quickly in the presence of others. People's feedback is not a good metric to estimate how much work gets done.
At the same time I can work hours straight with no distraction if I enjoy the problem or if I'm working on my business.
I have noticed that biggest inhibitor to my work is having to deal with other people's bullshit. If my manager doesn't really listen or isn't interested (or just fakes an interest) in making things well I kinda my lose motivation too to bring my best. Just being a monkey to churn-out half-assed code is what I hate the most and deteriorate my productivity too.
I can really pump out code with my own projects but doing the same to finish a bunch of nameless JIRA tickets isn't really the same. What do I get for providing some corporation more value? A pat on the shoulder? Hah.
I can really pump out code with my own projects but doing the same to finish a bunch of nameless JIRA tickets isn't really the same. What do I get for providing some corporation more value? A pat on the shoulder? Hah.
Very, very common.
If you work 3 hours a day but you deliver decent code and you are not on the way, you are not a problem for your manager. He knows that you are slow, but you don't give him problems, so he is ok.
A hyper motivated developers who starts lots of projects and don't finish them, or who writes buggy code, or who creates social problems in the team, will raise more red flags than a "slow but consistent developer".
A hyper motivated developers who starts lots of projects and don't finish them, or who writes buggy code, or who creates social problems in the team, will raise more red flags than a "slow but consistent developer".
Talk to your manager. They may be okay with you looking for what to work on on your own.
I started doing that a couple years ago. I'd scout and talk to people about what they needed. Eventually we'd find a project that was worth working on.
It's gone really well. I was okayed to basically choose what I worked on after a while, so that made work more fun. And your employer may recognize that and reward it.
I started doing that a couple years ago. I'd scout and talk to people about what they needed. Eventually we'd find a project that was worth working on.
It's gone really well. I was okayed to basically choose what I worked on after a while, so that made work more fun. And your employer may recognize that and reward it.
It's certainly not uncommon.
But: Turning it back to you: how is that working out for you? The title of your post — "feeling guilty" — may be telling you something. Either do it and enjoy it or don't.
You can be a genius "slacker". If that's fulfilling for you, great. Otherwise, focus on what you want to be getting out of the situation and not on the guilt.
But: Turning it back to you: how is that working out for you? The title of your post — "feeling guilty" — may be telling you something. Either do it and enjoy it or don't.
You can be a genius "slacker". If that's fulfilling for you, great. Otherwise, focus on what you want to be getting out of the situation and not on the guilt.
Guilty, no. I mean, it's your employers and managers who should feel guilt.
Worried? Maybe. Deliberately positioning oneself as a C- (bare minimum) performer might work OK in a time of plenty.
What happens when your skills and endurance have atrophied, but the pressure is actually on?
I call folks like you "the expendables". It's a job with a purpose and I appreciate your sacrifice.
Worried? Maybe. Deliberately positioning oneself as a C- (bare minimum) performer might work OK in a time of plenty.
What happens when your skills and endurance have atrophied, but the pressure is actually on?
I call folks like you "the expendables". It's a job with a purpose and I appreciate your sacrifice.
You're probably in a state with "at will" employment so there's nothing stopping your employer from firing you for any reason short of discrimination or retaliation. If they haven't fired you or even so much as given you a warning, then you are clearly satisfying your end of the agreement, by definition. (You don't even have the insight to make this determination, so you have to go by their actions)
That five hours a day of paid time off is the profit you earn for doing a good job. It is up to you to efficiently reallocate those resources as demanded by CAPITALISM because the company is unable to.
That five hours a day of paid time off is the profit you earn for doing a good job. It is up to you to efficiently reallocate those resources as demanded by CAPITALISM because the company is unable to.
Any tips on how to change the timestamp on your Git commits? That way you could get your work done on a Monday and spread the commits out throughout the week. I've looked at this before but there are two timestamps on each commit (can't remember now what each of them denotes) and I could only change one of them.
Just set up a cron job
Honestly you could do worse than reading HN. I have learned tons on here that I frequently later apply to my day job.
Work smart, not hard. Actually sounds like you are doing just that:
> reading blog posts, HN, often even reading (tech, biz-related) books
You will gain knowledge from doing those things, that will aid you in your job. Technically demanding roles require constant learning, not just bums-on-seats bashing out code.
> reading blog posts, HN, often even reading (tech, biz-related) books
You will gain knowledge from doing those things, that will aid you in your job. Technically demanding roles require constant learning, not just bums-on-seats bashing out code.
OP you just sound lazy and to be honest I 100% notice this behavior when my colleagues do it. Do I moan and complain to my manager about them? No. Do I think badly of them? Yes.
You say you're feeling guilty but you also say "I don't really feel bad about it". Which is it?
You say you're feeling guilty but you also say "I don't really feel bad about it". Which is it?
Yeah, the guilty feeling sucks, I also had a devops job where I worked 2-3 hours a day. I finally found a more demanding job that required 4-6 hours of work per day. Being remote also helped instead of trying to keep up appearances in the office.
Reading hn and other tech related information is working - increasing your depth and breadth. It’s just not direct work. It’s good for you and your employer for you to spend time with indirect work, with related and unrelated general topics.
People know most will just not say anything to you and work around you..I work with someone like this and the team is well aware that he does the bare minimum, but we just don't say anything because nothing good will come of it.
You should make sure you and your manager(s) are on the same page. It would be unfortunate if you think they are happy with your work just to get in trouble later on for working less hours than what your getting paid for.
Dude just enjoy it its simple!
Don't feel bad. Most companies ask you to sign away your intellectual properties even when they're come up during your rest in non-working hours. Your slacking is just your rest time for your work.
As long as the work you DO perform is high-quality, there’s little reason to push you out of your chair. Review code, write docs, provide useful feedback - who could ask for more?
Host file the sites you like. You saying this and me typing this reminded me that I need to do that again... my current one:
127.0.0.1 arstechnica.com
#127.0.0.1 news.ycombinator.com
127.0.0.1 reuters.com
127.0.0.1 techcrunch.com
127.0.0.1 slashdot.org
127.0.0.1 www.youtube.com
127.0.0.1 youtube.com
127.0.0.1 arstechnica.com
#127.0.0.1 news.ycombinator.com
127.0.0.1 reuters.com
127.0.0.1 techcrunch.com
127.0.0.1 slashdot.org
127.0.0.1 www.youtube.com
127.0.0.1 youtube.com
Don't feel guilty. I work from Colombia for a call center that pays $2/h. I can barely have time to pee. Enjoy your free time for the rest of us that don't
It’s fine. You’re hurting no one really. At most you’re hurting yourself but likely not. If you wanted something different you’d behave differently.
You have no reason to feel guilty. The relationship between employee and employer is fundamentally one of exploitation.
I wish I was like you. I volunteer to get involved in lots of projects then fail at half of them and end up burnt out.
Business could be a better fit for you. Perhaps building your own SaaS app? I'm working on something to help people build businesses, you can sign up for the MVP if you like: https://cxo.industries
from all the reading i do here, you would be a great fit at Google, every G employee here seems to talk about barely working. :x
I do the same at Amazon fwiw.
Interesting, I was always told they work their engineers to the bone and then replace, hence the lower average tenure.
Obligatory "Office Space" quote : "It's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't care". Maybe your workplace is uninspiring? Maybe everywhere you've worked it uninspiring? Many workplaces are inefficient. Not surprising if you can get stuff done in fraction of the time. Have you got kids yet? If not, that might explain your issues. ;) Once you have kids its a much as you can do to get work done, look after kids and be a good parent, and do a few hobbies besides. No time for feeling guilty for not doing enough. ;)
Are you guys hiring ?Where can I apply?
Curious about career advancement with this approach? Does this get you promoted and does this get you work on more interesting projects?
The guilt you're feeling is intentional. The culture of capitalism is the driving force behind it. By recognizing it, you're already partway to breaking free.
You have my dream job
how do you find a company like this?
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this sounds a bit too much like humble bragging. I mean, you're considered "responsible" for rollouts and you want to tell me you're a relative of George Costanza? get outa here ...
Programmers are inherently incredibly underpaid relative to the immense value they bring to everything so if anything your working hours match what you're being paid. You may still be doing too much work.
Do not worry about it. It's not your job to worry about it.
If you want to work more, then get paid more.
Do not worry about it. It's not your job to worry about it.
If you want to work more, then get paid more.
If you are venting this, you know its an issue.
Maybe the theory you should post instead of an excuse is that you are lazy and the skill you perfected is hiding that you don't do anything.
Maybe the theory you should post instead of an excuse is that you are lazy and the skill you perfected is hiding that you don't do anything.
Who cares? The implicit idea behind employment is that the employer always pays less than they think you are worth.
There is no shame or immorality in occasionally bringing down output enough that you sometimes find where that crossover point is. Or, surprisingly, perhaps you find there _is_ no crossover point?
At any rate, stick with it while you can stay sane, then jump ship to something new and exciting. Done.
There is no shame or immorality in occasionally bringing down output enough that you sometimes find where that crossover point is. Or, surprisingly, perhaps you find there _is_ no crossover point?
At any rate, stick with it while you can stay sane, then jump ship to something new and exciting. Done.
If I am motivated and the task/project/product is fun I throw myself into it but that isn't sustainable. I've read a few of these posts from people at FAANG doing almost the same so I don't really feel bad about it. I'm just wondering how wide-spread this is. One of my theories for this behavior is that this is related to 40+ hour work weeks. I think I'd be able to get my devopsy work done in ~3 hours/day if I manage my time well and schedule most meetings on Mondays.