Nicotine (2016)(gwern.net)
gwern.net
Nicotine (2016)
https://gwern.net/nicotine
272 comments
Research anecdote here. I’m a psychologist in a different area and a friend who did his PhD in cocaine research with rats told me this.
Addiction is highly dependent on the immediacy of the drug’s effect on the brain. For this reason, people who smoke cocaine (directly or as crack) are highly likely to get addicted. It may be the majority. People who snort it are less likely to get addicted. And there are a lot of casual cocaine users (snorting) who do not develop a long term life altering addiction. I believe he (researcher friend) said it was 10-15% who go on to become addicted. Still substantial and dangerous but much less than smoking.
His research was looking at delayed onset of cocaine in rats after they pushed their cocaine lever. At longer delays more and more rats showed little interest.
This is part of the overall addiction picture. Decoupling drug use behaviors (smoking, snorting, and lever pressing) from noticeable drug onset prevents reinforcement of the behavior and makes addiction less likely, often much less.
This would explain why nicotine patches and gum would potentially be much less addictive than cigarettes.
Addiction is highly dependent on the immediacy of the drug’s effect on the brain. For this reason, people who smoke cocaine (directly or as crack) are highly likely to get addicted. It may be the majority. People who snort it are less likely to get addicted. And there are a lot of casual cocaine users (snorting) who do not develop a long term life altering addiction. I believe he (researcher friend) said it was 10-15% who go on to become addicted. Still substantial and dangerous but much less than smoking.
His research was looking at delayed onset of cocaine in rats after they pushed their cocaine lever. At longer delays more and more rats showed little interest.
This is part of the overall addiction picture. Decoupling drug use behaviors (smoking, snorting, and lever pressing) from noticeable drug onset prevents reinforcement of the behavior and makes addiction less likely, often much less.
This would explain why nicotine patches and gum would potentially be much less addictive than cigarettes.
I’ve never heard this idea. It seems like coffee bucks this trend though? I’ll take 20 minutes to drink a cup but still wildly addicted.
I don’t think people are addicted to coffee in the same way they’re addicted to cocain
I’m going to go ahead and generalize my own experience as an alcoholic, smoker, and coffee drinker with a highly addictive personality from a long line of addicts: It’s not remotely the same kind of addiction.
Waking up in the morning and finding I’m out of coffee is an issue on par with, I don’t know, waking up and finding we’re out of milk and I need to eat some toast instead of cereal. Not the way to start the day, but I’ll grumble and get through.
Waking up in the morning and finding out I’m out of nicotine is immediate 11/10 anxiety. My brain is focused only on how to get some. Can I make it to the store and back before my first meeting of the day? If it’s tight, I can be a bit late. If I can’t, I’m basically autopiloting myself through my morning until the first free minute I have to run out and get some. That is the _only_ thing on my mind.
From past experience, if I’m down to my last $10 and have the choice between food and coffee I’ll pick food. If I have the choice between food and cigarettes, I’ll pick cigarettes.
If I'm traveling, I'll take the risk that the hotel doesn't have coffee for some reason. I don't pack coffee in my suitcase. There's probably some mini-bottles or something in there though in case I can't get my hands on some alcohol along the way.
Waking up in the morning and finding I’m out of coffee is an issue on par with, I don’t know, waking up and finding we’re out of milk and I need to eat some toast instead of cereal. Not the way to start the day, but I’ll grumble and get through.
Waking up in the morning and finding out I’m out of nicotine is immediate 11/10 anxiety. My brain is focused only on how to get some. Can I make it to the store and back before my first meeting of the day? If it’s tight, I can be a bit late. If I can’t, I’m basically autopiloting myself through my morning until the first free minute I have to run out and get some. That is the _only_ thing on my mind.
From past experience, if I’m down to my last $10 and have the choice between food and coffee I’ll pick food. If I have the choice between food and cigarettes, I’ll pick cigarettes.
If I'm traveling, I'll take the risk that the hotel doesn't have coffee for some reason. I don't pack coffee in my suitcase. There's probably some mini-bottles or something in there though in case I can't get my hands on some alcohol along the way.
But cigarettes, not nicotine. I have used nicotine lozenges for weeks or months at a time when I need to concentrate on some critical projects and for me it has always been easy to stop, but I once was drinking 7 or 8 cups a day and decided I needed to stop and that took nearly a year and many terrible terrible headaches.
You'd be surprised! Some people have as hard a time quitting coffee as they do nicotine. And lots of people do coke and never become addicted. It varies a lot from person to person, which is a fact that is underappreciated. Luckily, there is a lot of research now to support this.
Agreed. I drink coffee because I like the taste and the caffeine gives a little boost. I could be said to be dependant on caffeine, as I get withdrawal symptoms on cessation (headaches) - but I feel no compulsion to drink coffee, as there would be with addiction.
It also has to do with the size of the dopamine impact on the brain. Andrew Huberman's metaphor about a "wave" really helped me understand the concept of dopamine addiction in the brain.
I used to smoke cigarettes for many years. Over a decade. In the last few years of smoking, I tried to quit numerous times, trying to replace it with vaping because nicotine is what I'm addicted to, right? So I shouldn't have that hard a time, it's about breaking the physical habit not the drug addiction since I'm not quitting that. Often I would go a few months. The last failed attempt, withdrawals gave me panic attacks well into 3 months in. So I gave up, got some cigarettes, a year later I tried again and succeeded, I'm a few years smoke free.
I'm still addicted to nicotine, I vape. But I wake up, where my vape is is not the first thing I think about. I dont plan my day by how much nicotine I have left. When I get under the weather I can give it up for a few days with no problem. This is not the same addiction I had when smoking cigarettes, this is a milder, more casual thing, I don't get cravings, I get these small little desires for a puff. Whatever is going on with cigarettes, nicotine is only a small part of that. Quitting cigarettes is one of the hardest things I've ever done, I could not vape for the rest of the day and only feel a mild annoyance. In my experience the article is correct, there's something more going on with cigarettes than just nicotine.
I'm still addicted to nicotine, I vape. But I wake up, where my vape is is not the first thing I think about. I dont plan my day by how much nicotine I have left. When I get under the weather I can give it up for a few days with no problem. This is not the same addiction I had when smoking cigarettes, this is a milder, more casual thing, I don't get cravings, I get these small little desires for a puff. Whatever is going on with cigarettes, nicotine is only a small part of that. Quitting cigarettes is one of the hardest things I've ever done, I could not vape for the rest of the day and only feel a mild annoyance. In my experience the article is correct, there's something more going on with cigarettes than just nicotine.
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The obvious question is whether there are other addictive compounds in cigarettes. I’ve heard stories like yours before.
They say there are MAOIs in tobacco that increase nicotine uptake, but I'm not entirely convinced that that's the sole culprit either. I could chew some tobacco right now, or smoke a pipe or cigar, I could even inhale it, and I wouldn't have a problem. If I were to smoke a single cigarette I'd be smoking a pack a day within a week and who knows how many months or years it would take me to rectify that. Whatever it is I suspect it's done deliberately in processing.
Tobacco contains Harmaline which is an MAOI - it both increases the bioavailability of nicotine as well as adding an additional psychoactive effect; stimulant + anti-depressant
I've recently started adding free base harmaline to my vape juice to create a proper tobacco substitute... I found that nicotine alone didn't provide the relaxation that I would get from smoking tobacco. After a fair amount of research I discovered that it was that lack of harmala compounds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmala_alkaloid
I've recently started adding free base harmaline to my vape juice to create a proper tobacco substitute... I found that nicotine alone didn't provide the relaxation that I would get from smoking tobacco. After a fair amount of research I discovered that it was that lack of harmala compounds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmala_alkaloid
Well, I'm past that addiction now so I don't want to try it to stir it up, but I've had pipe tobacco and cigar tobacco, as well as chewing tobacco since I quit cigarettes and I've never had them rope me back in even a little bit. So I think cigarettes have something else going on. Maybe I'm wrong.
I am curious though if this worked for you as a full substitute to sate cravings, and what amount you added.
I am curious though if this worked for you as a full substitute to sate cravings, and what amount you added.
Do some web research on the additives in cigarettes. What I have heard from people who do research into cigarette addiction is that the additives suppress the bad effects of smoking (such as coughing, lungs feeling burnt, not being able to breath, etc.) When you stop smoking you also stop getting the additives and you suddenly feel all the damage smoking has been doing, which makes it much harder to quit. You literally feel like hell when you stop.
That wasn't my experience. One of the drivers that pushed me to quit was loss of stamina and lung capacity, I was beginning to feel the impact on my health. Within 48 hours of quitting I could feel my stamina double, which is common among people who quit cigarettes. The feeling that drove me back every time but the last one was the intense anxiety from quitting, definitely a drug withdrawal and not a physical feeling of malaise. I don't think physical malaise is a common withdrawal symptom when quitting cigarettes.
As a former smoker I think you didn't fully read the article und understood author's and other's thesis that it is actually not the nicotine that makes for the strong cigarette addiction.
So I have some personal experience with nicotine in different formats. Cigars (not inhaled) and zyn packets you slip under your lip.
My experience is that nicotine is highly addictive based on dosage and delivery.
Cigars were in no way addictive, I suspect because the delivery of the nicotine takes quite a while.
The zyn though, I quickly ramped up from low dosages (1-3mg) to the higest dosages (10mg+). And at my worst I'd go through a 20 pack of those per day.
I tried quitting cold turkey multiple times from the zyn, failed each time. Tried slowly decreasing strength till I reached 3mg and then quit, that worked fine and was actually relatively easy.
I still smoke cigars, they just don't trigger the same reactions that the zyn did.
My experience is that nicotine is highly addictive based on dosage and delivery.
Cigars were in no way addictive, I suspect because the delivery of the nicotine takes quite a while.
The zyn though, I quickly ramped up from low dosages (1-3mg) to the higest dosages (10mg+). And at my worst I'd go through a 20 pack of those per day.
I tried quitting cold turkey multiple times from the zyn, failed each time. Tried slowly decreasing strength till I reached 3mg and then quit, that worked fine and was actually relatively easy.
I still smoke cigars, they just don't trigger the same reactions that the zyn did.
Strongly agree with the slow decrease method. One of the nice things about nicotine pouches/gum is they come pre-dosed so it's pretty simple in how to ramp down. Doing it is the tough part.
For more fine grained decreases I've used the 3mg, then 2mg, then split up pieces of nicotine gum (2 or 4 mg) to get down to like 1 and .5 mg doses.
For more fine grained decreases I've used the 3mg, then 2mg, then split up pieces of nicotine gum (2 or 4 mg) to get down to like 1 and .5 mg doses.
I actually quit over the course of a week. Going from 10mg+ pouches down to 9, 6, 3 and finally quit.
Going from 3mg to no longer using was relatively straightforward.
Trying to quit from 10mg cold turkey was basically impossible. 4 days after going cold turkey I was still absolutely desperate for nicotine. The difference was massive.
Going from 3mg to no longer using was relatively straightforward.
Trying to quit from 10mg cold turkey was basically impossible. 4 days after going cold turkey I was still absolutely desperate for nicotine. The difference was massive.
There is no such thing as a cigarette addiction. Nicotine is the addictive chemical in cigarettes. Yes, method of consumption matters, but if you regularly consume an addictive chemical you are at risk to develop an addiction to that chemical, regardless of method (though not necessarily regardless of quantity).
Not really right.. but again you also either didn't read the article, didn't get the point, or strongly object it? (And also ignore authentic experiences other people give here)? Beyond nicotine, which is addictive yes, there is more in the cigarette cocktail (especially in nowadays highly optimized industrialized ones) that is also addictive. So there is such a thing as a cigarette addiction.
Or in other words: Why do people only get little addicted and can easily stop chewing nicotin gums, while for only a small percentage of smokers it is possible to quit via the nicotin gum replacement?
Or in even other words: Both coffeine and heroine are addictive, but we can agree that there are differences?
Or in other words: Why do people only get little addicted and can easily stop chewing nicotin gums, while for only a small percentage of smokers it is possible to quit via the nicotin gum replacement?
Or in even other words: Both coffeine and heroine are addictive, but we can agree that there are differences?
Third time I'm writing the same comment - nicotine addiction can be formed and sustained without tobacco. This is obvious.
Definitely, but that was neither questioned nor the point at all, shrug.
You might be overlooking a chemical conditioning element. A smoker gets a dopamine hit every time they take a pull from their cigarette. The smell, the sizzle, and the routine - all become associated with a reward pathway.
Nicotine is the chemical that causes this, but the addiction is far more than just nicotine alone.
Nicotine is the chemical that causes this, but the addiction is far more than just nicotine alone.
Exactly. What is the chemical element in a smartphone addiction? Or a pornography addiction?
What a shortsighted and close minded comment (talking about parent).
What a shortsighted and close minded comment (talking about parent).
As I just said in another comment, the fact that people can maintain their nicotine addiction with vapes or patches or gum shows that the primary addictive substance is nicotine and it can be effectively addictive all by itself.
Do you have personal experience with a nicotine or tobacco addiction? Many of us may agree that nicotine is the _primary_ addictive substance but there are other considerations.
It's not one size fit all and everyone is an individual.
You seem pretty confident about this despite there being thousands of chemicals in cigarettes and presumably the companies being very interested in hooking their users.
Lots of people manage nicotine addiction with the patch or gum or vapes. None of those contain the chemicals in tobacco, but all of them sustain the addiction.
Do they?
>As a former smoker, I can only believe that anyone who takes this risk does not fully appreciate the consequences.
That's the key thing there, "smoker". If you become addicted to nicotine via smoking tobacco, then you're possibly fucked, but nicotine by itself is nowhere near as dangerous for health, it even has some benefits for well-being.
I don't know why you take exception to some people or articles emphasizing the above, or that cigarettes are the major risk. It's mostly true and addiction by itself specifically to a cheap, easily available substance like nicotine, which doesn't devastate daily functionality or economic solvency as many other narcotics do, is not terrible by itself.
That's the key thing there, "smoker". If you become addicted to nicotine via smoking tobacco, then you're possibly fucked, but nicotine by itself is nowhere near as dangerous for health, it even has some benefits for well-being.
I don't know why you take exception to some people or articles emphasizing the above, or that cigarettes are the major risk. It's mostly true and addiction by itself specifically to a cheap, easily available substance like nicotine, which doesn't devastate daily functionality or economic solvency as many other narcotics do, is not terrible by itself.
I understand what you're saying and have mixed feelings. My opinion is that a nicotine addiction is terrible no matter how it's consumed but smoking tobacco is the most harmful way to consume.
I was able to switch from chewing tobacco to nicotine pouches and gum but still feel the addiction is terrible.
I was able to switch from chewing tobacco to nicotine pouches and gum but still feel the addiction is terrible.
> nicotine by itself is nowhere near as dangerous for health, it even has some benefits for well-being.
So, recently I had to learn that nicotine is super toxic and can be lethal or at least severely damaging to internal organs, especially for children, toddlers, babies, small animals (dogs, cats), etc.
Maybe Google it, or ask your doctor, if your assumption that "by itself is nowhere near as dangerous for health, it even has some benefits for well-being" stands.
So, recently I had to learn that nicotine is super toxic and can be lethal or at least severely damaging to internal organs, especially for children, toddlers, babies, small animals (dogs, cats), etc.
Maybe Google it, or ask your doctor, if your assumption that "by itself is nowhere near as dangerous for health, it even has some benefits for well-being" stands.
Are you referencing like pure nicotine liquids? Yeah vape juices that smell like jelly donuts, if a toddler/animal drinks a month supply in a few minutes it’s going to be bad news. Also, when people were mixing their own juices they’d be buying pure nicotine and getting poisoned.
“The dose makes the poison.”
Anyways, not going to list out all the pros and cons of nicotine as Andrew Huberman did that for us. He has a decent podcast that’s goes through it all.
No one really argues that it’s essential or beneficial in every way but it’s not the purported demon that the anti smoker lobby has made it out to be.
Many years ago, I heard the Japanese even put it into their drinks. I’ve tried searching for it now and found some iffy sources and outdated Reddit links and everything else is just e juice vape spam. Can any Japanese knowledgeable people confirm or deny this?
“The dose makes the poison.”
Anyways, not going to list out all the pros and cons of nicotine as Andrew Huberman did that for us. He has a decent podcast that’s goes through it all.
No one really argues that it’s essential or beneficial in every way but it’s not the purported demon that the anti smoker lobby has made it out to be.
Many years ago, I heard the Japanese even put it into their drinks. I’ve tried searching for it now and found some iffy sources and outdated Reddit links and everything else is just e juice vape spam. Can any Japanese knowledgeable people confirm or deny this?
> Are you referencing like pure nicotine liquids?
Not going to discuss on your other arguments, just wanted to say that if anything smaller than a grown adult eats a cigarette or just plain tobacco, better call the doctor.
Not going to discuss on your other arguments, just wanted to say that if anything smaller than a grown adult eats a cigarette or just plain tobacco, better call the doctor.
Why are you fucked? Being addicted isn’t bad in itself. Nicotine by itself has very few ill effects on the body and there are plenty of way to only get pure nicotine (gum, patch, vaping with unflavored liquids)
Dependence on a drug is not necessarily bad. Addiction absolutely is.
Addiction (substance use disorder) exists when a person exhibits two or more of the following symptoms: (1) impaired control, (2) social problems, (3) risky use, and (4) physical dependence.
Impaired control means using more of a substance or more often than intended; or wanting to cut down or stop use but not being able to.
Social problems includes things like neglecting responsibilities and relationships, abandoning activities the person used to care about, or failing to fulfill obligations at home, school or work - because of the substance use.
Risky use includes things like using in risky settings, continued use despite known problems, engaging in risky substance-related practices like sharing needles, risky sexual activity (because of, or in order to obtain the drug), and driving while intoxicated.
Physical dependence is needing more of the substance to get the same effect, or having withdrawal symptoms when a substance isn't used.
Two or three symptoms indicate mild substance use disorder. Four or five symptoms indicate moderate, and six or more indicate severe substance use disorder. When people talk about addiction, they are typically referring to severe substance use disorder.
Physical dependence and tolerance are not the same as addiction. Substance use disorder is by definition problematic.
Addiction (substance use disorder) exists when a person exhibits two or more of the following symptoms: (1) impaired control, (2) social problems, (3) risky use, and (4) physical dependence.
Impaired control means using more of a substance or more often than intended; or wanting to cut down or stop use but not being able to.
Social problems includes things like neglecting responsibilities and relationships, abandoning activities the person used to care about, or failing to fulfill obligations at home, school or work - because of the substance use.
Risky use includes things like using in risky settings, continued use despite known problems, engaging in risky substance-related practices like sharing needles, risky sexual activity (because of, or in order to obtain the drug), and driving while intoxicated.
Physical dependence is needing more of the substance to get the same effect, or having withdrawal symptoms when a substance isn't used.
Two or three symptoms indicate mild substance use disorder. Four or five symptoms indicate moderate, and six or more indicate severe substance use disorder. When people talk about addiction, they are typically referring to severe substance use disorder.
Physical dependence and tolerance are not the same as addiction. Substance use disorder is by definition problematic.
That’s just generic boilerplate addiction literature. None of those apply to nicotine. It’s cheap, legal and doesn’t have enough of an effect to be a public disorder risk. No one is committing domestic violence or impaired driving while being purely “hopped up on nicotine”. The most you might get is someone holding up a store to incidentally steal cigarettes while they go for what’s in the cash register, but that’s about it.
I didn’t say anything about nicotine. You wrote that “Being addicted isn’t bad in itself.”
That is incorrect.
Addiction is bad by definition.
That is what I was replying to.
What you are brushing off as “boilerplate” are the DSM-5 criteria for substance use disorder — colloquially known as addiction.
That is incorrect.
Addiction is bad by definition.
That is what I was replying to.
What you are brushing off as “boilerplate” are the DSM-5 criteria for substance use disorder — colloquially known as addiction.
We’re clearly talking about nicotine in this thread. Your boilerplate addition did nothing to address anything about a nicotine addiction. Not all of them are the same- there is a stark difference in being addicted to caffeine and being addicted to heroin. Copy pasting information without context adds nothing useful.
I'm concerned that many might miss the nuance and subtlety of the main issue:
- Nicotine IS really addictive when distributed through common uses (smoking, vaping).
Yes, if the absorption is progressive and in small dosages, the addiction is less severe, but this is not useful for smokers who want to quit and presents a dangerous introduction for others
- Nicotine IS really addictive when distributed through common uses (smoking, vaping).
Yes, if the absorption is progressive and in small dosages, the addiction is less severe, but this is not useful for smokers who want to quit and presents a dangerous introduction for others
I have zero interest in cigarettes though. So like, let's say I started chewing a gum and then I became addicted to the gum. I'm assuming the downside here would be primarily withdrawal effects of not chewing the gum? It's not like it's going to be a gateway to cigarettes for me. You'll experience caffeine withdrawal too, so I'm not sure that's really a problem.
From the article,
> There is little evidence from the NRT literature that ‘never-smokers’ like myself are all that likely to become highly addicted,
That is to say, it does not seem to present a dangerous introduction for others, assuming you mean an introduction to cigarettes.
From the article,
> There is little evidence from the NRT literature that ‘never-smokers’ like myself are all that likely to become highly addicted,
That is to say, it does not seem to present a dangerous introduction for others, assuming you mean an introduction to cigarettes.
Indeed, there are loads of occasional-cigar smokers out there who have zero interest in smoking cigarettes, and in between the times they feel they can afford a quality cigar, simply do not smoke at all.
I just had my first cigar the other night at 38. Was a good experience, I look forward to next time, but it was the environment/atmosphere more than the high.
I have zero interest in smoking weed or cigarettes. It's a completely different thing in my mind.
I have zero interest in smoking weed or cigarettes. It's a completely different thing in my mind.
There is no "high" with cigars. It's just a matter of enjoying a particular aroma profile, just like eating barbecue, smelling a perfume, or burning some incense. Did you really go into smoking a cigar expecting some kind of drug experience?
Nope, I went in expecting exactly what I got. It was awesome.
Anecdotally, I've accidentally quit vaping several times, because I don't vape when I've caught a cold and that's coincided with me needing to buy supplies.
I've gone back to it because I find it enjoyable, but, having watched my father quit smoking several times, I can't say that I've ever had withdrawals like that, or really at all.
So my theory is, really, that cigarettes and tobacco in general is far more addicting and therefore far more bioactive than just consuming nicotine is.
I've gone back to it because I find it enjoyable, but, having watched my father quit smoking several times, I can't say that I've ever had withdrawals like that, or really at all.
So my theory is, really, that cigarettes and tobacco in general is far more addicting and therefore far more bioactive than just consuming nicotine is.
I was an occasional smoker for over a decade and only got addicted to nicotine when I started vaping. It's more anecdata, but I don't think vaping is any less addictive than smoking cigarettes, and for many people vaping will increase their likelihood of addiction just because it's easier to vape unnoticed and there's no natural stopping point like there is with cigarettes.
I've also temporarily quit nicotine and caffeine when I got sick, and I think part of the reason is that the withdrawal effects are less noticeable and/or maybe you attribute them to the illness. Also, if you get sick enough to take time off from work, that tends to coincide with the worst withdrawal effects, which last about three days in my experience.
I've also temporarily quit nicotine and caffeine when I got sick, and I think part of the reason is that the withdrawal effects are less noticeable and/or maybe you attribute them to the illness. Also, if you get sick enough to take time off from work, that tends to coincide with the worst withdrawal effects, which last about three days in my experience.
I have quit cigarettes successfully (for ~10 years now) and found it wasn't too difficult. However, I have known people who could quit indefinitely and pick it back up without issue and people who are going through rounds of quitting, returning, quitting and so forth.
I personally believe there are additional elements involved that could be genetic or psychological.
I personally believe there are additional elements involved that could be genetic or psychological.
I used to both smoke and extensively used pure Nicotine (gums, sprays etc.)
In my opinion, majority of the people who are stopping Nicotine (not just smoking) approach it as an incredibly hard challenge. The process is demonised and described as something that is really hard to complete. That's exactly what I would like people to think if I'd be to work in a marketing department for tobacco corporations.
While there is a longer story behind it, I quit cold turkey in March this year. This time was much easier - I didn't approach it as something that is hard to do. While this might sound banal, I focused on what am I getting out of it, not what I'm loosing. Everything, from my gums to my muscles got better.
Nicotine in its pure form is definitely great brain stimulant, I'm still a big fan. I just don't think it's worth the cost, both from financial and health perspective to use it often.
In my opinion, majority of the people who are stopping Nicotine (not just smoking) approach it as an incredibly hard challenge. The process is demonised and described as something that is really hard to complete. That's exactly what I would like people to think if I'd be to work in a marketing department for tobacco corporations.
While there is a longer story behind it, I quit cold turkey in March this year. This time was much easier - I didn't approach it as something that is hard to do. While this might sound banal, I focused on what am I getting out of it, not what I'm loosing. Everything, from my gums to my muscles got better.
Nicotine in its pure form is definitely great brain stimulant, I'm still a big fan. I just don't think it's worth the cost, both from financial and health perspective to use it often.
cigarette smoke also has a bunch of other stuff, including MAOIs. it's definitely not _just_ the nicotine. iirc, cigarettes also have additives to make the nicotine hit harder / cross the blood brain barrier faster, which probably doesn't help
I dunno about that. Personally, I smoked cigarettes for about 5 years, then quit for about a decade, and then picked up vaping a few years ago.
I’m definitely just as addicted to the Juul as I ever was to cigarettes, if not more so, and it definitely seems like it will be harder to quit. Cigarettes are so gross it’s almost a benefit, you need to go outside to smoke, the vape is just so easy and so much cleaner, I’ve definitely found it much harder to cut down.
I’m definitely just as addicted to the Juul as I ever was to cigarettes, if not more so, and it definitely seems like it will be harder to quit. Cigarettes are so gross it’s almost a benefit, you need to go outside to smoke, the vape is just so easy and so much cleaner, I’ve definitely found it much harder to cut down.
My friends who took up vaping (esp in pandemic) ended up vaping near-constantly
It's not the 80s, so vaping allows one to sit around the house and duff it in a way that most people wouldn't do with cigarettes.
I feel like nicotine intake can dramatically increase with vaping.
It's not the 80s, so vaping allows one to sit around the house and duff it in a way that most people wouldn't do with cigarettes.
I feel like nicotine intake can dramatically increase with vaping.
Mathwise it's about 6mg of nicotine adsorbed per cigarette. That gives you a way to compare dosage of nicotine to vaping a certain concentration of juice.
Probably not a great 1:1 because there are other things in play with smoking, but, ballparky enough.
If you wanted something closer, you'd need to figure out how the other compounds in cigarette smoke affect nicotine adsorption and activity.
Probably not a great 1:1 because there are other things in play with smoking, but, ballparky enough.
If you wanted something closer, you'd need to figure out how the other compounds in cigarette smoke affect nicotine adsorption and activity.
The withdrawal effects are more like kicking a heroin addiction.
I’ve heard you can actually quit cigaret cold turkey and be fine. Whereas I imagine you could die if you tried that with heroin?
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That doesn't sound true.
Try it then. As someone who smoked and quit and have had friends who smoked and quit who also had heroin habits, they corroborate the difficulty. It’s a different type of struggle but the struggle is strong just the same.
I've quit both cigarettes and a middling amphetamines addiction.
Quitting cigarettes was trivial. I decided not to buy a pack that day and then never bought another pack. That's my anecdotal contribution to the discussion.
Less anecdotally:
Opioid withdrawal, in extreme cases, has killed people from persistent vomiting and diarrhea. It has measurable physical symptoms with an understood pathophysiology largely connected to the cAMP-signaling system.
Nicotine withdrawal is far less understood, to the degree it has been classified at all (mostly in studies of mice). It certainly has never killed anyone, you're not going to shit yourself to death. They're not comparable to one another.
Quitting cigarettes was trivial. I decided not to buy a pack that day and then never bought another pack. That's my anecdotal contribution to the discussion.
Less anecdotally:
Opioid withdrawal, in extreme cases, has killed people from persistent vomiting and diarrhea. It has measurable physical symptoms with an understood pathophysiology largely connected to the cAMP-signaling system.
Nicotine withdrawal is far less understood, to the degree it has been classified at all (mostly in studies of mice). It certainly has never killed anyone, you're not going to shit yourself to death. They're not comparable to one another.
I feel like I shouldn't have to try heroin to understand this. A solid paper on the topic would suffice.
A simple Google search returns hundreds if not thousands of results.
Here’s one for you https://academic.oup.com/ntr/article/20/9/1038/4096884
Here’s one for you https://academic.oup.com/ntr/article/20/9/1038/4096884
That paper does not look like it actually measures addiction, and I don't want to sort through hundreds or thousands of results...
But I don't really care. It doesn't sound true but it also doesn't change anything.
But I don't really care. It doesn't sound true but it also doesn't change anything.
No it wouldn’t unless you can consistently reproduce any found results among differing populations and I have serious doubts such a paper, with said follow ups, exists.
OK, then I'm going to go with "doesn't sound true"...
There needs to be a term for this mindset where people won't entertain a thought or idea unless there's a study proving that thought is correct in all cases. I can guarantee the person you responded to is a weightlifter.
That's not the case here at all. I believe lots of things without studies. Something like "heroin and cigarettes are equally addictive" doesn't sound right to me - that's why I need evidence to the contrary. It's a somewhat extraordinary claim, therefor I require some evidence.
Purely anecdotal, but I believe Keith Richards is on record stating that kicking heroin was far easier than kicking nicotine.
There's evidence for this, too -- he quit using heroin decades ago, but only managed to quit smoking a few years back.
So it seems to be true, at least for him.
There's evidence for this, too -- he quit using heroin decades ago, but only managed to quit smoking a few years back.
So it seems to be true, at least for him.
You’re conflating nicotine with tobacco again.
For me, quitting smoking was easier than quitting coffee addiction. Coffee is everywhere, cheap, and consumption is all but encouraged. If I were to smoke I take on all sorts of baggage. Much of smoking is about being a smoker which is a mindset and community that is hard to leave. Social effects can be much stronger than physical dependence.
For me, quitting smoking was easier than quitting coffee addiction. Coffee is everywhere, cheap, and consumption is all but encouraged. If I were to smoke I take on all sorts of baggage. Much of smoking is about being a smoker which is a mindset and community that is hard to leave. Social effects can be much stronger than physical dependence.
> For me, quitting smoking was easier than quitting coffee addiction
Operative phrase here: "for you".
Operative phrase here: "for you".
Totally agree. One of the hardest parts of quitting smoking for me was quitting smoke breaks with my smoker friends at work.
Yes, but only because nicotine is cheap, easily available, won't cause any real immediate problems or drain your bank account.
As a substance its no where near as addicting as heroin, no one would actually ruin their lives for nicotine in case it was illegal and expensive.
As a substance its no where near as addicting as heroin, no one would actually ruin their lives for nicotine in case it was illegal and expensive.
That is not surprising.
a) The downsides to smoking are far longer term and harder to feel daily
b) You're surrounded by smokers, you can literally smell them smoking just by walking down the street
c) Smoking is legal. You can just go buy a pack.
I am unsurprised that quitting smoking is harder for some people, given that. But in terms of withdrawal symptoms, that's where I think heroin is probably worse. But I also don't really know. So far someone linked a Google search and an irrelevant paper.
a) The downsides to smoking are far longer term and harder to feel daily
b) You're surrounded by smokers, you can literally smell them smoking just by walking down the street
c) Smoking is legal. You can just go buy a pack.
I am unsurprised that quitting smoking is harder for some people, given that. But in terms of withdrawal symptoms, that's where I think heroin is probably worse. But I also don't really know. So far someone linked a Google search and an irrelevant paper.
That is different from withdrawal being worse. Opiate withdrawal can be rather severe from a physical standpoint. Nicotine withdrawal simply is not.
[deleted]
That's somewhat person dependent. I was a heavy smoker (3-4 packs a day) for several years, but quitting cold turkey was very easy for me. I basically had no cravings unless I was drinking, and those went away after a month.
I realize I'm an outlier.
I realize I'm an outlier.
WOW that's amazing how different people's experiences can be.
I smoked one pack spread out 2 or 3 days, for about 3 years (in college). Rarely would do a full pack in a day.
Quitting was pure torture. I stayed up 24 hours walking laps around my campus. Took like four full days for cravings to go away.
Haven't had a cigarette in 10 yrs. Occasionally enjoy a cigar without problems
I smoked one pack spread out 2 or 3 days, for about 3 years (in college). Rarely would do a full pack in a day.
Quitting was pure torture. I stayed up 24 hours walking laps around my campus. Took like four full days for cravings to go away.
Haven't had a cigarette in 10 yrs. Occasionally enjoy a cigar without problems
I was terribly addicted for a decade, smoking and then vaping, and for me, withdrawal was almost intolerable. For about three days, it was a terrible experience. I felt sick, raged with anger, cried, felt unhinged, and even had minor visual disturbances. It can really only only be compared to a bad psychedelic trip. But once I did manage to get through it, that was it. It hasn't much bothered me since. Stopped thinking about smoking about a week after. I can't say I crave it really, and I cannot relate to the long-term experiences where people say it takes months or years to get fully over it. We're all different.
I also believe it’s the duration of use and not the concentration of use that plays more a role here. Being a heavy smoker for 4 years isn’t the same mentally as someone who smoked normally for 20 years. I think past the 10 year mark and your brain has suffered damage to the point where the addiction becomes life. However, in about 10% of cases, smokers who quit were able to because the effects of nicotine addiction hadn’t taken hold. Much like some people feel nothing from taking cocaine.
IANAE though.
Either way. I was a smoker but not a heroin user and quitting was the hardest thing for me. It took me almost a month to feel normal.
IANAE though.
Either way. I was a smoker but not a heroin user and quitting was the hardest thing for me. It took me almost a month to feel normal.
I'm not really sure whether I can or should dispute your basic point, but I will say that pharmaceutically pure nicotine is radically different to tobacco smoke.
People who quit smoking are actually quitting a synergistic cocktail of drugs - nicotine and a variety of MAO inhibitors found in tobacco smoke. There is good evidence to suggest that these MAOI components dramatically increase the addictiveness of nicotine.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01618...
People who quit smoking are actually quitting a synergistic cocktail of drugs - nicotine and a variety of MAO inhibitors found in tobacco smoke. There is good evidence to suggest that these MAOI components dramatically increase the addictiveness of nicotine.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01618...
Anecdata follows. As a never smoker I used nicotine gum during strength training workouts. I never had any urge to use it at other times. I did not find the effect very pleasant either, so while I couls see its benefit plotting my progress, ultimately I stopped using it. I do have tobacco addiction in my family history.
everyone's a never-smoker until they're not. the sense I got with this article is that the author started with the presumption that nicotine from sources other than smoking is basically okay and built up from there. that's not to say that he's wrong, just that it didn't feel like a rational approach
To give an alternate perspective:
smoking cigarettes is just an all around bad experience, it smells bad, it tastes bad, it hurts my throat, and for what? Light headedness, possibly with the spins? And the smell lingers it gets into everything, you basically need to change your clothes after you smoke a cigarette.
I’m a non smoker period, and I can only assume this “oh everyone says they can’t get addicted to cigarettes until they start smoking” attitude can only be projection from hapless addicts. It just doesn’t work that way for me.
I’ve even tried nicotine gum, just to see if maybe it’s the smoking itself that’s a turnoff - without the smell and the taste, maybe nicotine is good on its own? But it’s not - it’s the same head-spinning mild nausea that I recognize right away from cigarettes. who is this drug for? Because it’s certainly not me. Addicted to this? I literally cannot imagine it, why would I seek such a comprehensively bad experience compulsively and repeatedly? It just doesn’t compute for me.
smoking cigarettes is just an all around bad experience, it smells bad, it tastes bad, it hurts my throat, and for what? Light headedness, possibly with the spins? And the smell lingers it gets into everything, you basically need to change your clothes after you smoke a cigarette.
I’m a non smoker period, and I can only assume this “oh everyone says they can’t get addicted to cigarettes until they start smoking” attitude can only be projection from hapless addicts. It just doesn’t work that way for me.
I’ve even tried nicotine gum, just to see if maybe it’s the smoking itself that’s a turnoff - without the smell and the taste, maybe nicotine is good on its own? But it’s not - it’s the same head-spinning mild nausea that I recognize right away from cigarettes. who is this drug for? Because it’s certainly not me. Addicted to this? I literally cannot imagine it, why would I seek such a comprehensively bad experience compulsively and repeatedly? It just doesn’t compute for me.
>I’m a non smoker period, and I can only assume this “oh everyone says they can’t get addicted to cigarettes until they start smoking” attitude can only be projection from hapless addicts. It just doesn’t work that way for me.
this is a bizarre assumption. first of all, no one said that everyone who hasn't smoked has a strong propensity, what I said was that everyone who has been addicted once wasn't. I myself have very little propensity towards addiction to nicotine and do not enjoy cigarettes. that doesn't mean that I think this talk of most "never-smokers" having little propensity towards addiction makes sense. everyone who has ever been addicted to nicotine was once a "never-smoker", and probably billions of people consume nicotine every day. those numbers tell the real story
this is a bizarre assumption. first of all, no one said that everyone who hasn't smoked has a strong propensity, what I said was that everyone who has been addicted once wasn't. I myself have very little propensity towards addiction to nicotine and do not enjoy cigarettes. that doesn't mean that I think this talk of most "never-smokers" having little propensity towards addiction makes sense. everyone who has ever been addicted to nicotine was once a "never-smoker", and probably billions of people consume nicotine every day. those numbers tell the real story
For the word “dangerous” to be appropriate, it needs to be established (1) that nicotine is bad for you or (2) that this introduction ever leads to smoking. Or are you just taking all the harms of smoking and applying them to nicotine because of cultural reasons?
100% correct. This article circulates every so often but it's basically just super dangerous. Recommend just looking at NIH [0] here.
[0]: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=nicotine+site%3Awww.ncbi.nlm.nih.g...
[0]: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=nicotine+site%3Awww.ncbi.nlm.nih.g...
Could you provide something way more specific than a DDG search?
No the thing I'm doing is burying this armchair gwern hogwash with tons of actual research that spans decades.
Not particularly. Pure nicotine in and of itself is significantly less addictive than the form presented in a cigarette. Modern big tobacco has managed to create an incredibly nasty and addictive chemical slurry in a stick, with acetaldehyde, ammonia, MAOIs, and a bunch of other chemicals which significantly increase the addictiveness of nicotine.
Gwern has noted the same in his post:
> Wikipedia summarizes Guillem et al 2005 as “Technically, nicotine is not significantly addictive, as nicotine administered alone does not produce significant reinforcing properties” - the addictiveness coming from MAOIs (eg. Khalil et al 2000, Khalil et al 2006) & possibly other compounds present in tobacco
Gwern has noted the same in his post:
> Wikipedia summarizes Guillem et al 2005 as “Technically, nicotine is not significantly addictive, as nicotine administered alone does not produce significant reinforcing properties” - the addictiveness coming from MAOIs (eg. Khalil et al 2000, Khalil et al 2006) & possibly other compounds present in tobacco
Gwern has noted the same in his post:
> Wikipedia summarizes Guillem et al 2005 as “Technically, nicotine is not significantly addictive, as nicotine administered alone does not produce significant reinforcing properties” - the addictiveness coming from MAOIs (eg. Khalil et al 2000, Khalil et al 2006) & possibly other compounds present in tobacco
> Wikipedia summarizes Guillem et al 2005 as “Technically, nicotine is not significantly addictive, as nicotine administered alone does not produce significant reinforcing properties” - the addictiveness coming from MAOIs (eg. Khalil et al 2000, Khalil et al 2006) & possibly other compounds present in tobacco
Gwern has noted the same in his post:
> Wikipedia summarizes Guillem et al 2005 as “Technically, nicotine is not significantly addictive, as nicotine administered alone does not produce significant reinforcing properties” - the addictiveness coming from MAOIs (eg. Khalil et al 2000, Khalil et al 2006) & possibly other compounds present in tobacco
> Wikipedia summarizes Guillem et al 2005 as “Technically, nicotine is not significantly addictive, as nicotine administered alone does not produce significant reinforcing properties” - the addictiveness coming from MAOIs (eg. Khalil et al 2000, Khalil et al 2006) & possibly other compounds present in tobacco
It wasn’t showing up when I had edited initially, my bad.
Nicotine itself really isn't particularly dangerous. If you haven't already been a smoker, you have no mental connection between nicotine cravings and cigarettes, so you don't really have any reason to desire them. If you were used to something like Zyn & tried a cigarette, you probably wouldn't even like it that much in my opinion. It may kick in significantly quicker, but there's also substantially less nicotine in a cigarette vs a nicotine pouch and it would probably leave you dissatisfied and annoyed at the bad taste in your mouth.
I used gum to come off vapes, and I still use gum. Over time, I’ve started to notice my tolerance is … decreasing? I’m now cutting a 2mg gum (lowest dose) in 4 with a pill cutter, and that’s about the right amount
Honestly addiction itself is not enough of a downside.
I use nicotine gum (2mg) to concentrate on reading or programming tasks from time to time. I have never smoked. I prefer it over caffeine as I do no get the irritable withdrawals. The only noticeable side affect I experience is some sleepiness after the effect wears off (around 30-40 minutes).
I have the same experience, except I buy 4mg gum tablets and I chew 1/4 - 1/3 of a tab at time. 2mg and 4mg tabs are priced similarly.
I am going to ignore this recommendation, despite my temptation. :/
I’ve done this too as someone diagnosed with a lot of daytime sleepiness.
Any worry about longterm effects of nicotine? I’ve tried to find good studies online but most center around smoking, not the gum or pure nicotine.
Any worry about longterm effects of nicotine? I’ve tried to find good studies online but most center around smoking, not the gum or pure nicotine.
I have been using it for about 3 years, perhaps at a max of twice per week. I started using it for the same reason as you, I had issues staying awake. I only drink coffee when absolutely needed as I get very irritable withdrawals when off it. I gave the gum a try after hearing about the use of it from a Hamilton Morris podcast.
I personally have not felt any lingering affects outside of some drowsiness after wards. It seems like an easy enough habit to drop as well, as I have done so for a few months at a time for surgery recoveries. I am in agreement with the study linked in this article that nicotine by itself seems the same (for me, better) as similar stimulants like caffeine. I would never smoke however, as that seems to be the real issue.
I personally have not felt any lingering affects outside of some drowsiness after wards. It seems like an easy enough habit to drop as well, as I have done so for a few months at a time for surgery recoveries. I am in agreement with the study linked in this article that nicotine by itself seems the same (for me, better) as similar stimulants like caffeine. I would never smoke however, as that seems to be the real issue.
I think that the stimulant property is felt less if you are not used to nicotine. You would notice a lot more of the dizziness/light-headedness.
But on the other side it could be just the fact that when you are hooked, you need it just to not feel the withdraw.
As with some drugs this one can be used beneficially if well spaced (idk a full week, then 3m without it?). To me any use beyond this small period is just not efficient, performance wise.
I used to smoke a pack a month, last year i discovered this pouches from a Swedish friend (he was talking about the under-average incidence of lung cancer there). I got hooked, and it was really bad to quit. Yes its not like its crack/heroine and ill go steal or stop showering, but i had sever trouble sleeping (of course i slept with them many times). The quit moment for me was when i started to double dose on the strongest ones, also my gums were sore and bled sometimes (if i could not buy my preferred brand i would buy minted, felt like a junkie going to crack on not finding whatever drug of preference)...
But on the other side it could be just the fact that when you are hooked, you need it just to not feel the withdraw.
As with some drugs this one can be used beneficially if well spaced (idk a full week, then 3m without it?). To me any use beyond this small period is just not efficient, performance wise.
I used to smoke a pack a month, last year i discovered this pouches from a Swedish friend (he was talking about the under-average incidence of lung cancer there). I got hooked, and it was really bad to quit. Yes its not like its crack/heroine and ill go steal or stop showering, but i had sever trouble sleeping (of course i slept with them many times). The quit moment for me was when i started to double dose on the strongest ones, also my gums were sore and bled sometimes (if i could not buy my preferred brand i would buy minted, felt like a junkie going to crack on not finding whatever drug of preference)...
I tried it once and got super dizzy. That’s a common occurance?
If nicotine gum makes you dizzy, then it's the dosage. 2mg is the smallest amount I have seen in gum. Over that, especially for the first time, is too much. It's like drinking a very large cup of coffee (100mg+ caffeine) if you have never had coffee before. You could feel sick.
I think so, also nausea in some cases, but it may be related to high dosage. People underestimate how strong this stuff can be.
I've used 2mg nicotine gum as a mental clarity aid for years. It's cheap, effective, and harmless AFAIK.
I have stopped using it for months at a time and never has any withdrawal symptoms. Caffeine otoh is addictive for me and will cause withdrawal symptoms if I indulge too often. The caffeine buzz can make me jittery and increase ADHD type behaviors for me. Ymmv.
I have stopped using it for months at a time and never has any withdrawal symptoms. Caffeine otoh is addictive for me and will cause withdrawal symptoms if I indulge too often. The caffeine buzz can make me jittery and increase ADHD type behaviors for me. Ymmv.
You say it's harmless, but are there any negative health effects? (I seem to recall reading nicotine can cause thinning of the arteries, or something like that)
I've heard there are but haven't noticed anything personally.
Nicotine has antifungal and antimicrobial attributes. I have even seen studies claiming smokers were less likely to get serious covid infections likely due to some property of nicotine.
Native Americans treated tobacco as a sacred plant and praised it for all sorts of health and spiritual properties. That makes me think the plant and its consumption is probably a net benefit and it may be the way commercial cigarettes and tobacco are processed that cause the problems.
Nicotine has antifungal and antimicrobial attributes. I have even seen studies claiming smokers were less likely to get serious covid infections likely due to some property of nicotine.
Native Americans treated tobacco as a sacred plant and praised it for all sorts of health and spiritual properties. That makes me think the plant and its consumption is probably a net benefit and it may be the way commercial cigarettes and tobacco are processed that cause the problems.
How long does the effect last?
I started taking caffeine pills before working out (a ~100mg dose) and it works really well, I wonder if I should try out nicotine gum too
I started taking caffeine pills before working out (a ~100mg dose) and it works really well, I wonder if I should try out nicotine gum too
Nicotine gum just gets me on track. No buzz really, I just get more directed, keep my eye on the prize better.
I don't do it everyday and I take breaks. It all comes very organically, I don't have to plan it.
I don't do it everyday and I take breaks. It all comes very organically, I don't have to plan it.
For me it is just like a more concentrated caffeine dose.
I had no noticeable addiction whatsoever, and I was hyperaware of the risk from the all the press over smoking addiction.
Amazon usually has some really great offers on nicotine gum if you drill through their site long enough.
I had no noticeable addiction whatsoever, and I was hyperaware of the risk from the all the press over smoking addiction.
Amazon usually has some really great offers on nicotine gum if you drill through their site long enough.
I agree very much with the addiction aspect being genetic. My mother has tried to quit cigarettes umpteen times and never been successful. Smokes multiple packs a day.
My dad has smoked here and there my whole life but mostly in the summer. He'll go all 6 months of winter (Minnesota) without smoking not wanting to be in the cold and not wanting to smoke in the house.
He never "needs" a smoke, unlike my mother. It's always "oh a smoke would be nice on this beautiful night".
I like to smoke a tobacco pipe and do so about 6-10 times a year. I think I got my dad's side of it
My dad has smoked here and there my whole life but mostly in the summer. He'll go all 6 months of winter (Minnesota) without smoking not wanting to be in the cold and not wanting to smoke in the house.
He never "needs" a smoke, unlike my mother. It's always "oh a smoke would be nice on this beautiful night".
I like to smoke a tobacco pipe and do so about 6-10 times a year. I think I got my dad's side of it
A factor that I've slowly started to think is potentially very relevant is age of first habit formation. Not just a puff here or there, but the age at which you were first addicted. Extremely anecdotally, I have asked people and noticed that all of my friends who can't quit started much younger in their formative years than the types who can smoke a few when drinking every now and again but otherwise abstain with no issue.
Not sure re: genetics but I’ll say: I love smoking a cigarette, but I’ve never had problems not smoking for any length of time at all.
The same is not true for me with respect to alcohol, so it’s not like I’m especially immune to addiction. I just think specifically with smokes it’s not as simple as “everyone addicted always”. Which I’ve heard claimed.
The same is not true for me with respect to alcohol, so it’s not like I’m especially immune to addiction. I just think specifically with smokes it’s not as simple as “everyone addicted always”. Which I’ve heard claimed.
I was always fascinated by cigarettes and stole one when I was 10 and that was where my journey of addition to nicotine began. I now vape everyday and chew 2mg of gum if I’m on a plane or some other situation.
I’ve tried to quit multiple times but I’m weak. I can go a few months but always get pulled back.
IMO there are no benefits. If you never had nicotine and this link made you curious don’t. You will most likely become a life long user to one of the most addictive chemicals known to man.
I’ve tried to quit multiple times but I’m weak. I can go a few months but always get pulled back.
IMO there are no benefits. If you never had nicotine and this link made you curious don’t. You will most likely become a life long user to one of the most addictive chemicals known to man.
It really seems to vary by person, perhaps genetic.
In university I used to bum cigarettes off people all the time and have one here and there, esp back when you could smoke at the club, at a rave, etc. before bylaws. I'd even buy a pack of cigarettes here and there, and then just...forget about them and never finish them. Sometimes I'd have a bit of a craving for two or three days after and just power through it, and that was that.
In the summer I'll smoke some pipe tobacco, and every few years smoke a cigar. Don't really crave after.
Before my older sister was born my father was a heavy smoker. When my mom got pregnant, he just quit, and that was that, never ever showed any interest in smoking again.
But then I've seen the very brutal suffering that I saw friends go through trying to quite their smoking habit. Just awful.
All said, I don't think nicotine is a wise thing to mess with. Vaping especially to me seems like a slippery slope because it kind of gives the vibe of a kind of "consequence-less" interaction with the drug. If you smoke a pipe or cigar, you stink, you might get a headache, and it actually costs quite a bit of $$. Vaping is set up to seem like this casual entertainment with few consequences. I'm glad my teens have so far ridiculed it and shown no interest.
In university I used to bum cigarettes off people all the time and have one here and there, esp back when you could smoke at the club, at a rave, etc. before bylaws. I'd even buy a pack of cigarettes here and there, and then just...forget about them and never finish them. Sometimes I'd have a bit of a craving for two or three days after and just power through it, and that was that.
In the summer I'll smoke some pipe tobacco, and every few years smoke a cigar. Don't really crave after.
Before my older sister was born my father was a heavy smoker. When my mom got pregnant, he just quit, and that was that, never ever showed any interest in smoking again.
But then I've seen the very brutal suffering that I saw friends go through trying to quite their smoking habit. Just awful.
All said, I don't think nicotine is a wise thing to mess with. Vaping especially to me seems like a slippery slope because it kind of gives the vibe of a kind of "consequence-less" interaction with the drug. If you smoke a pipe or cigar, you stink, you might get a headache, and it actually costs quite a bit of $$. Vaping is set up to seem like this casual entertainment with few consequences. I'm glad my teens have so far ridiculed it and shown no interest.
You are absolutely correct. Most of my friends were able to quit while some are in the same situation as me. All I’m saying is don’t take the risk.
Why do you get pulled back if there are no benefits?
As I said I’m weak.
Edit: the only benefit I get now is not thinking about nicotine until my cravings kick in again. While loop from hell.
Edit: the only benefit I get now is not thinking about nicotine until my cravings kick in again. While loop from hell.
Addiction isn't a question of will. You're not weak for not being able to walk away, and you wouldn't be strong if you were able to.
addiction is wild
author shrugged this off pretty easily but nicotine is a vasoconstrictor which is an issue when combined with it being addictive. that's a problem if you ever have certain types surgery due to wound healing and lack of blood flow. There's more than a few people that effed their plastic surgery results because they immediately went back to nicotine. (note: not all plastics are necessarily volunteer, such as after certain cancer/tumor/melanoma removals).
Alcohol and caffeine are also vasoconstrictors in high usage one would associate with addiction (they seem to have a lot of paradoxical effects depending on dosage/habit).
If the theory that nicotine alone is not as addictive as smoking is correct I'm not sure the concern makes more sense than concern over other common addictions.
If the theory that nicotine alone is not as addictive as smoking is correct I'm not sure the concern makes more sense than concern over other common addictions.
I'm a non smoker, I never smoked. Once I decided to try a nicotine chewing gum, took one pillow and chewed it thoroughly. After about 5-10minutes I suffered some very very severe effects, including: I started sweating extremelly such that all my clothes become wet quickly and sweat was dripping down my nose, ears, and into my eyes. I felt an intense and urgent need to urinate and defecate, which luckily I could do on the spot (happened to be in the proximity of a public toilet). I think after about 30minutes the simptoms subsided. I subjectivelly imagined that I ran the risk of a heart attack there.
So, I'd like to warn any non-smoker that may want to try out nicotine: please start with a very small dose, and only gradually build up; because otherwise it can be dangerous.
So, I'd like to warn any non-smoker that may want to try out nicotine: please start with a very small dose, and only gradually build up; because otherwise it can be dangerous.
FYI, nicotine poisoning is uncomfortable but if it happens to you, you can greatly reduce the effect by eating something sweet, the effects seem to be blood sugar dependent. Try a spoonful of honey or a can of coke, you will feel better almost instantly.
This tip brought to you by cigar smokers.
This tip brought to you by cigar smokers.
This definitely sounded like nicotine poisoning. I don't smoke cigars specifically because of this singularly unpleasant experience. I think I'd rather have COVID, the flu, and pnuemonia all together than ever get nicotine poisoning again.
FWIW, you're not supposed to chew it thoroughly, even if you're a smoker. You're supposed to gently bite once to break it open, then tuck it in your cheek or under your lip for a while, and repeat as necessary. Chewing like normal gum releases it all at once which is not advisable.
You’re supposed to chew it only until it tastes peppery then park it in your gum/cheek
Thanks for the PSA. One would think a 10,000 word article on the benefits of non-smoking nicotine use, with a dedicated section on health issues, might mention this important detail...
Instructions are usually on the box, but you’re right, no mention of nicotine overdose which is quite unpleasant and easily negates any productivity benefits if experienced.
And the funny follow-up: after this one-time rather completly unpleasant experience, I developed an intense smell sensibility to nicotine that lasted about one month: I could feel/smell the presence of small amounts of nicotine and have a very somatic "sick" reaction to it. I guess my body learned quickly to alert me of the "poison". Luckily, this reaction dissapeared and everything reverted to normal after about one month.
Or just never build up and always use small doses. No real addiction, and you still get great effects similar to caffeine or amphetamine as long as you don't use it often enough to build up a tolerance (which isn't too hard).
Nicotine poisoning is one of the worst feelings imaginable. The headache is stuff of legends and, interestingly, the same headache I had with Covid and for weeks after. I get a bit sick even thinking about it.
Welcome to nicotine poisoning. You are only supposed to chew until you get flavor, then suck on it like you would spitting tobacco except not spitting. When you get a craving, you chew a few more times. The symptoms you describe are classic nicotine poisoning symptoms. Sweats, expulsions of fluids, rapid heart rate, disorientation.
It also describes what I felt like the first time I ever tried a cigarette.
The disorientation is why most kids vape. Then they are addicted.
The kids call that a head rush.
Quoting one of the reply [0] from the linked thread in the OP:
Nicotine is considered one of the most (if not THE most) physically and psychologically addictive substances in the entire world. Prior to introducing nicotine into your body, there is no compulsion for your body want/need it. However, as SOON as you introduce it for the first time, it gives birth to a "little monster" of need within you. This monster will remain within you until the day you die. Sure, eventually you can starve this "little monster" down into a tiny little husk, so that it no longer has any effect on you, but there's always going to be that slight twinge... That slight trickle in the back of your mind that something's missing. I feel that once you go down the road of nicotine you'll forever regret it.
However, if you have been a smoker I guess it's alright to try but,
Another interesting thing I found in the same thread is the Moderator's note [1]:
The study below demonstrates that nicotine, regardless of administration method causes Smoker's Melanosis, and it is likely that by extension, whether specifically demonstrated or not, this action will accelerate the visible signs of skin aging by a similar uneven discoloration and an increase in the number of moles which smokers and their families get.
The long-term effect of nicotine on the oral mucosa [2].
So, it's still not safe completely. I have been a smoker and I quit long ago but after reading the article I'd still stick with the good ol' coffee!
0: https://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/23915-nicotine-patch-f...
1: https://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/23915-nicotine-patch-f...
2: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10605870
Nicotine is considered one of the most (if not THE most) physically and psychologically addictive substances in the entire world. Prior to introducing nicotine into your body, there is no compulsion for your body want/need it. However, as SOON as you introduce it for the first time, it gives birth to a "little monster" of need within you. This monster will remain within you until the day you die. Sure, eventually you can starve this "little monster" down into a tiny little husk, so that it no longer has any effect on you, but there's always going to be that slight twinge... That slight trickle in the back of your mind that something's missing. I feel that once you go down the road of nicotine you'll forever regret it.
However, if you have been a smoker I guess it's alright to try but,
Another interesting thing I found in the same thread is the Moderator's note [1]:
The study below demonstrates that nicotine, regardless of administration method causes Smoker's Melanosis, and it is likely that by extension, whether specifically demonstrated or not, this action will accelerate the visible signs of skin aging by a similar uneven discoloration and an increase in the number of moles which smokers and their families get.
The long-term effect of nicotine on the oral mucosa [2].
So, it's still not safe completely. I have been a smoker and I quit long ago but after reading the article I'd still stick with the good ol' coffee!
0: https://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/23915-nicotine-patch-f...
1: https://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/23915-nicotine-patch-f...
2: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10605870
I used to smoke cigarettes fairly frequently (about 1-2 a day perhaps 10-15 years ago) and have never experienced this. Every now and then, perhaps every few months, I think it might be pleasant to get into pipe tobacco, try snuff or snus, or enjoy a cigar. I can categorically say that I experience nothing I would remotely categorize as regret or craving whatsoever.
Did you inhale? Once I learned how to inhale I got hooked pretty quick. I do know people who can put them down whenever they want, but I wasn't one of them.
The one good thing I got out of it was knowing what addiction felt like. I'm sure it kept me from getting addicted to more dangerous things when I was younger.
The one good thing I got out of it was knowing what addiction felt like. I'm sure it kept me from getting addicted to more dangerous things when I was younger.
I used to be a daily smoker for over 2y and a casual/social smoker for close to a decade.
Since moving to US, for the last decade, I don't smoke as "nobody" smokes here (compared to Europe). I smoke now 1-2 cigarettes a year, mostly when visiting Europe and with smoker friends. (I never got addicted and never had any problem quiting cold turkey; I smoked because it was great social relationship builder - some of my best friends are people met on cigarette breaks).
Sometimes I use nicotine gums / patches as a dieting aid (effective appetite suppressant).
And I want to warn against this premise of short half life. This is not true in general. There are active metabolites like cotinine with elimination half life of 20h+, depending on your liver enzymes, gender, ethnicity.
If I chew a nicotine gum around noon, I have trouble sleeping the whole following night with my brain unable to calm down, mild jaw clenching etc.
So yes, moldafinil is a terrible stimulant due to too long half life, but so is nicotine (for many). I definitely don't recommend for that purpose. Maybe for extreme (crash) dieting, but this is unhealthy in general.
Sometimes I use nicotine gums / patches as a dieting aid (effective appetite suppressant).
And I want to warn against this premise of short half life. This is not true in general. There are active metabolites like cotinine with elimination half life of 20h+, depending on your liver enzymes, gender, ethnicity.
If I chew a nicotine gum around noon, I have trouble sleeping the whole following night with my brain unable to calm down, mild jaw clenching etc.
So yes, moldafinil is a terrible stimulant due to too long half life, but so is nicotine (for many). I definitely don't recommend for that purpose. Maybe for extreme (crash) dieting, but this is unhealthy in general.
After being on IRC for the best part of two decades (and the fringe groups who frequent the medium) I have seen the word “nootropics” banded about.
The first time, I thought it was a fun idea but nothing I wanted, see; my brain is all I have so I dont much fancy experimenting with it- this is also why I avoided alcohol and coffee despite social pressures.
The community that formed went away as quickly as it had been created; various people began having psychological issues.
The next time I heard about nootropics I passed along the information. “This time, will be different” the anonymous internet handle claimed.
“We know more, we will not do anything dangerous”.
Alas, the same fate befell them, and the community that formed quickly dissapated as they became incoherent even amongst each other. Prone to fits of paranoia and delusions of a grandiose conspiracy - which they were the only people who could see the truth.
Later, on of my fellow IRC opers followed this path, I gave strict warning that it was hubris to believe himself smarter at drug use for brain optimisation than the scores of admittedly intelligent people who came before. He (much) later would become unhinged and fly cross continent to find me at my irl work location where he threatened my mother.
He was incoherent most of the time and dropped out of university.
So, forgive the hesitance, but I am even more hardened on the notion that we should probably not mess with our brains too much. I know some people must be pioneers to understand what works but I always took “YOLO” as a warning and not as a reason to throw caution to the wind.
That said, I am a heavy user of caffeine in adulthood and I am more susceptible to pressure on drinking alcohol now. So I will admit to being hypocritical when it comes to the socially acceptable brain altering drugs.
NB: Nicotine itself is addictive mostly because it has such a long half life, it stays in the body for multiple weeks; so if you decide to take this advice, make sure you wait at least a fortnight between doses.
The first time, I thought it was a fun idea but nothing I wanted, see; my brain is all I have so I dont much fancy experimenting with it- this is also why I avoided alcohol and coffee despite social pressures.
The community that formed went away as quickly as it had been created; various people began having psychological issues.
The next time I heard about nootropics I passed along the information. “This time, will be different” the anonymous internet handle claimed.
“We know more, we will not do anything dangerous”.
Alas, the same fate befell them, and the community that formed quickly dissapated as they became incoherent even amongst each other. Prone to fits of paranoia and delusions of a grandiose conspiracy - which they were the only people who could see the truth.
Later, on of my fellow IRC opers followed this path, I gave strict warning that it was hubris to believe himself smarter at drug use for brain optimisation than the scores of admittedly intelligent people who came before. He (much) later would become unhinged and fly cross continent to find me at my irl work location where he threatened my mother.
He was incoherent most of the time and dropped out of university.
So, forgive the hesitance, but I am even more hardened on the notion that we should probably not mess with our brains too much. I know some people must be pioneers to understand what works but I always took “YOLO” as a warning and not as a reason to throw caution to the wind.
That said, I am a heavy user of caffeine in adulthood and I am more susceptible to pressure on drinking alcohol now. So I will admit to being hypocritical when it comes to the socially acceptable brain altering drugs.
NB: Nicotine itself is addictive mostly because it has such a long half life, it stays in the body for multiple weeks; so if you decide to take this advice, make sure you wait at least a fortnight between doses.
That's definitely an anecdote, but I think the salient point is this:
> So, forgive the hesitance, but I am even more hardened on the notion that we should probably not mess with our brains too much
And that's true, insofar as we are able to agree on what "mess with our brains" and "too much" means.
Is taking some choline "messing" with the brain? Definitely. Is it "too much?" well, perhaps you think so. Is drinking coffee "too much"? Apparently we both agree that it is not "too much", I'm drinking some caffeine right now.
One thing about Choline and Caffeine is that they are very well studied, especially in terms of safety. The further you go into the nootropics world the less studied options you'll find - things range from "zero data" to "used for 1000s of years by an unscientific people" to "animal studies exist" and beyond.
My personal "too much" is when there's a combination of weak evidence to support benefits and weak evidence to support safety in humans.
> So, forgive the hesitance, but I am even more hardened on the notion that we should probably not mess with our brains too much
And that's true, insofar as we are able to agree on what "mess with our brains" and "too much" means.
Is taking some choline "messing" with the brain? Definitely. Is it "too much?" well, perhaps you think so. Is drinking coffee "too much"? Apparently we both agree that it is not "too much", I'm drinking some caffeine right now.
One thing about Choline and Caffeine is that they are very well studied, especially in terms of safety. The further you go into the nootropics world the less studied options you'll find - things range from "zero data" to "used for 1000s of years by an unscientific people" to "animal studies exist" and beyond.
My personal "too much" is when there's a combination of weak evidence to support benefits and weak evidence to support safety in humans.
Well said.
I think that is definitely a strong and salient way to think about mind altering chemicals.
I think that is definitely a strong and salient way to think about mind altering chemicals.
The best place to start is the Beginner’s Guide put together by the Nootropics subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/wiki/beginners/
TLDR: Your starting point is exercise, sleep and sunlight. Nothing after that really has as large of an effect.
TLDR: Your starting point is exercise, sleep and sunlight. Nothing after that really has as large of an effect.
> Nothing after that really has as large of an effect.
Most people would disagree - at least, anyone who drinks caffeine would.
Most people would disagree - at least, anyone who drinks caffeine would.
Most people can't understand why they aren't feeling well after 1kg of pasta with meatballs.
I love caffeine and coffee, but if we are talking about well-feeling, 5 minute calistenics would make you feel better in 99% compared to a cup of sugar laden cappuccino
I love caffeine and coffee, but if we are talking about well-feeling, 5 minute calistenics would make you feel better in 99% compared to a cup of sugar laden cappuccino
None of that is relevant. Caffeine has a blatant cognitive effect.
So do sleep exercise and sunlight
I explicitly quoted "> Nothing after that really has as large of an effect."
For me, missing a night of sleep has a much, much larger cognitive effect than missing a cup of coffee. What I was trying to express was that the percent change is much higher, not that it’s infinite.
Trying to be more practical and a touch less sarcastic for a minute… I find, on average, I tend to get about two hours more work done on days where I spend at least 45 min in the gym and that includes the hour or more loss from the activity itself. Skipping caffeine on the other hand, doesn’t have any effect unless I’ve missed sleep the night before.
If you are thinking of dipping your toes into supplements though and don’t really want to exercise or sleep, I’ve found Creatine to be really helpful in that state. Definitely a stronger effect than caffeine but takes a lot longer to kick in!
Trying to be more practical and a touch less sarcastic for a minute… I find, on average, I tend to get about two hours more work done on days where I spend at least 45 min in the gym and that includes the hour or more loss from the activity itself. Skipping caffeine on the other hand, doesn’t have any effect unless I’ve missed sleep the night before.
If you are thinking of dipping your toes into supplements though and don’t really want to exercise or sleep, I’ve found Creatine to be really helpful in that state. Definitely a stronger effect than caffeine but takes a lot longer to kick in!
[deleted]
It might be about the nootropics, but this might also be the conditiona that people who are in IRC chatrooms about braindrugs are more prone to psychotic breaks for whatever reason.
Stimulants increase likelihood of psychosis, but that's conditional on dosage and precursor risk variables
Stimulants increase likelihood of psychosis, but that's conditional on dosage and precursor risk variables
Nicotine specifically is also more likely to be used by people with psychotic disorders than the general population, as a form of self-medicating. Many Schizophrenic people report smoking cigarettes to help their symptoms in the short term, though I'm not sure what research says about long term mental health effects of this practice.
I would say that's a sampling bias, considering the type of people that frequent IRC. Numerous more students everywhere buy some piracetam or related due to a TikTok video, and never suffer any consequence.
I would also mention that nicotine itself has a marginally lower addictive rating if we go by ΔFosB expression. Having been someone that got hooked on cigarettes (and quit), the same habits never formed for nicotine, and the inclination was never there. And it is trivial to quit nicotine (compared to caffeine, even more so for cigarettes).
Though, I do agree in essence with your post. It is hubris to play around with this sort of thing. And there is never a free lunch (unless we're speaking strictly of micronutrients and pseudomicronutrients/vitamins).
I would also mention that nicotine itself has a marginally lower addictive rating if we go by ΔFosB expression. Having been someone that got hooked on cigarettes (and quit), the same habits never formed for nicotine, and the inclination was never there. And it is trivial to quit nicotine (compared to caffeine, even more so for cigarettes).
Though, I do agree in essence with your post. It is hubris to play around with this sort of thing. And there is never a free lunch (unless we're speaking strictly of micronutrients and pseudomicronutrients/vitamins).
The best nootropic is really high quality, regular sleep, regular exercise, and good diet. If you don't have the basics down, no supplement will make up for it.
And once you have all that (assuming exercise is cardio), weight lifting has great mental health effects IME
Agreed, and many of the supplements and drugs people are taking actually mess with sleep in a big way; so seems entirely counterproductive.
> Nicotine itself is addictive mostly because it has such a long half life, it stays in the body for multiple weeks.
It has a half-life of 2 hours [0]. If it lasted longer I think its withdrawal effect would be less steep and more gradual.
[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7794006/
It has a half-life of 2 hours [0]. If it lasted longer I think its withdrawal effect would be less steep and more gradual.
[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7794006/
I’ve seen a similar story.
Problems that could be solved by exercise, sunlight, sleep, and a positive mental attitude, but then they try nootropics instead.
It always ends the same way - psychosis, incoherence, paranoia.
The brain is a finely tuned network, use it’s built-in hapiness generators rather than throwing sledgehammers at it.
Problems that could be solved by exercise, sunlight, sleep, and a positive mental attitude, but then they try nootropics instead.
It always ends the same way - psychosis, incoherence, paranoia.
The brain is a finely tuned network, use it’s built-in hapiness generators rather than throwing sledgehammers at it.
I think it is useful to draw a distinction between “new” nootropics and those with hundreds of years of demonstrated use.
While nicotine has not historically been used in isolation, it has been used both in recreation and religion settings for around 2000 years. Caffeine use is similar, perhaps older.
There’s still reason to be wary of higher dosages or new delivery routes, but it seems unlikely that dabbling in low-dose caffeine or nicotine use will make you go crazy, based on the mountain of historical evidence to the contrary.
While nicotine has not historically been used in isolation, it has been used both in recreation and religion settings for around 2000 years. Caffeine use is similar, perhaps older.
There’s still reason to be wary of higher dosages or new delivery routes, but it seems unlikely that dabbling in low-dose caffeine or nicotine use will make you go crazy, based on the mountain of historical evidence to the contrary.
I know how these communities can be and it honestly sounds much more like a community problem than like a “people who drink some coffee and smoke some cigarettes” problem, because there are many millions of those who don’t have crazy, out-of-control behavioral problems.
Nicotine improves rote memorization and learning on repetitive tasks. Nicotine will teach you to be a really really good smoker unless you overlay some other ritual and modulate your ingestion mechanics.
Anecdata of one here-
Non-smoker, originally tried nicotine vapes as an alternative to caffeine which I tend to overuse.
Not very effective for me as I seem to have a paradoxical reaction to it that makes me want to take a nap for 5-10 minutes after inhaling, but I found the sensation was pleasurable when combined with cannabis edibles so I kept the vape around.
Absolutely zero physical addiction. I can and have stopped using the vape cold turkey for weeks or months at a time and I felt no withdrawal at all. At the present moment I haven't used it in months.
Non-smoker, originally tried nicotine vapes as an alternative to caffeine which I tend to overuse.
Not very effective for me as I seem to have a paradoxical reaction to it that makes me want to take a nap for 5-10 minutes after inhaling, but I found the sensation was pleasurable when combined with cannabis edibles so I kept the vape around.
Absolutely zero physical addiction. I can and have stopped using the vape cold turkey for weeks or months at a time and I felt no withdrawal at all. At the present moment I haven't used it in months.
apparently stimulants behaving like depressants is something that may be associated with ADHD, so you may want to visit a psychiatrist.
I believe that is more dose dependent than ADHD dependent. I would imagine if you gave someone with ADHD enough stimulants, then that reaction would reverse.
People commonly believe that stimulants affect people with ADHD differently than non-ADHD people, but I have never seen any research to back that up. It's merely just anecdotes, and I honestly think stimulants, like anything, just affect people differently regardless of ADHD or not.
If anyone has data either way, I would love to see it.
People commonly believe that stimulants affect people with ADHD differently than non-ADHD people, but I have never seen any research to back that up. It's merely just anecdotes, and I honestly think stimulants, like anything, just affect people differently regardless of ADHD or not.
If anyone has data either way, I would love to see it.
Looks like the paradoxical effect Wikipedia page is more ambiguous about this than I had thought. the data there is pretty sparse there either way
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradoxical_reaction?wprov=sfl...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradoxical_reaction?wprov=sfl...
I am a smoker. I wouldn't advise this. Before you get any stimulant effects. Which are minimal. You get very sick at first. By the time you have enough tolerance you are addicted physically. Some can quit easy but it can be a slippery slope. It's too risky as you don't know how hard it is to quit for you in advance.
I've tried off and on to quit for 20 years at least. Don't do it, it's a lot of work to get past the sickness. If I weren't young and ignorant, I'd have never started.
I've tried off and on to quit for 20 years at least. Don't do it, it's a lot of work to get past the sickness. If I weren't young and ignorant, I'd have never started.
Fellow nic addict of 18 years here. If you haven't yet I'd recommend trying out Tabex. I'm still addicted but was able to cut it off by like 85% this year with its aid.
I started smoking at 12 and got completely hooked in a week. I also tried several times to quit. I quit for 3 months TWICE and started back up. I finally got off cigarettes with Juul. I also don't recommend nicotine. You'll likely be a customer for life.
I once read a book called 'The Easy Way to Stop Smoking' and, as advertised, after finishing it I haven't had a cigarette or craving since. It was literally like magic and it's worked for two of my friends as well.
I occasionally use a 2mg piece of nicotine gum as a pick me up if I've already had too much caffeine or if it's late at night (or if I'm at a conference where I'm getting little sleep), and I certainly feel the stimulant effect and nothing else. Never had any sort of tolerance, never felt any draw to take it except in the sense of "Boy I'm really dragging, I need a stimulant. Should I get coffee or a piece of gum?".
Most weeks I use none, some conferences I've used 2 pieces a day every day for 4-5 days straight. No problems stopping afterward.
Most weeks I use none, some conferences I've used 2 pieces a day every day for 4-5 days straight. No problems stopping afterward.
I used to be a smoker, for a good decade. Then, switched to vaping for 3-4 years, which allowed me to taper down my nicotine use and quit completely.
This was about 5 years ago.
Recently, I’ve started using nicotine gum to increase focus while working. I usually use 1 mg, maximum 4 times a day. I typically begin taking it in the afternoon, my morning work sessions are usually nicotine-free. I have been using it on most days for about 3 months.
I have zero desire to smoke or vape. On days when I am not taking it, I don’t have a strong craving for the gum.
I’ve also quit caffeine a few days ago, with the intention to not use it for at least 3 months. I find that even low amounts of tea increases my anxiety to the point that it becomes difficult to focus. I’ve been very productive since I stopped caffeine. Mild withdrawal effects in the form of physical tiredness, but I am fine with the tradeoff for less anxiety.
I might have developed some level of physical dependency to nicotine, I’ll see it once I’ll do an extended break. For now, it’s the only dopamine-increasing substance I consume, and I’m fine with it.
This was about 5 years ago.
Recently, I’ve started using nicotine gum to increase focus while working. I usually use 1 mg, maximum 4 times a day. I typically begin taking it in the afternoon, my morning work sessions are usually nicotine-free. I have been using it on most days for about 3 months.
I have zero desire to smoke or vape. On days when I am not taking it, I don’t have a strong craving for the gum.
I’ve also quit caffeine a few days ago, with the intention to not use it for at least 3 months. I find that even low amounts of tea increases my anxiety to the point that it becomes difficult to focus. I’ve been very productive since I stopped caffeine. Mild withdrawal effects in the form of physical tiredness, but I am fine with the tradeoff for less anxiety.
I might have developed some level of physical dependency to nicotine, I’ll see it once I’ll do an extended break. For now, it’s the only dopamine-increasing substance I consume, and I’m fine with it.
You have zero desire to smoke or vape now but the usual way is you end up having a strong craving for your preferred mode of delivery (gum in your case) when it’s not available and then attempt another one to tide you through till your order gets here. Now you have two modes of delivery.
I am committed to not smoking or vaping, no matter what.
So far, I haven’t experienced any strong cravings for the gum when not taking it for a day or two. When I decide to stop in about a couple months, I will power through with discipline.
So far, I haven’t experienced any strong cravings for the gum when not taking it for a day or two. When I decide to stop in about a couple months, I will power through with discipline.
Easy to say. I have excellent discipline in most areas of my life but nicotine is a hard one. Doesn’t help that I don’t want to quit either because the actual health risks seem minimal (I vape, flavorless, lab grade)
There are health risks associated with vaping though, so the risk is not minimal. But yes, you need to _want to_ quit in order to be able to.
I've smoked on and off over the years, starting at 12. I never developed an addiction so I guess I'm lucky.
I really enjoy smoking a pipe, but generally don't because of the health risks and the difficulty finding a place to comfortably smoke as a renter of a non-smoking apartment.
Lately though I've been vaping 0-4x/day to help me focus and get mental energy. I also occasionally use half-doses of modafinil and notice the two work well together. The biggest downside of vaping for me is that I feel a little more agitated and depressed the next day or so. I guess this is what might normally feed the addictive cycle for others, but with type-2 bipolar depression it's a feeling I'm familiar with and I just ride it out vs trying to eliminate the feeling with more nicotine.
I really enjoy smoking a pipe, but generally don't because of the health risks and the difficulty finding a place to comfortably smoke as a renter of a non-smoking apartment.
Lately though I've been vaping 0-4x/day to help me focus and get mental energy. I also occasionally use half-doses of modafinil and notice the two work well together. The biggest downside of vaping for me is that I feel a little more agitated and depressed the next day or so. I guess this is what might normally feed the addictive cycle for others, but with type-2 bipolar depression it's a feeling I'm familiar with and I just ride it out vs trying to eliminate the feeling with more nicotine.
In sports there are two "legal" performance enhancing doping substances: caffeine and nicotine
I occasionally suck on a 2mg nicotine lozenge when doing activities I want to encourage (Anki, low intensity stationary biking). Seems to work well for habit formation for me, and I never really feel the urge to use them outside of those contexts.
After reading Gwern's writings on nicotine some years back, I did a bit of research myself. I can't recall where I read this, but I did come across some anecdotal datum about a person using nicotine to help them workout.
However, that person was quite strict about their usage. He or she would only using nicotine when working out but never any other time. The reasoning was that nicotine helps in habit formation while active in one's system. So, hopefully the brain would crave working out because it would associate the reward of nicotine with working out.
I do not know how it turned out, but I thought that was an interesting idea. What if nicotine could be used to aid in forming healthy habits, and once the habits are established, nicotine could be weened out?
Do you think nicotine has any kind of similar effects for you?
However, that person was quite strict about their usage. He or she would only using nicotine when working out but never any other time. The reasoning was that nicotine helps in habit formation while active in one's system. So, hopefully the brain would crave working out because it would associate the reward of nicotine with working out.
I do not know how it turned out, but I thought that was an interesting idea. What if nicotine could be used to aid in forming healthy habits, and once the habits are established, nicotine could be weened out?
Do you think nicotine has any kind of similar effects for you?
That might well have been me if it was in the last year or so. That's basically what I use it for, yes.
Is there any research into nicotine’s role in assisting those with ADHD? It’s a stimulant as the article points out, which many ADHD medications are as well of course. I’m curious if nicotine was (perhaps unintentionally) used in the 20th century to help those with ADHD stay focused on tasks and if an increase of diagnosed ADHD cases in the 21st century stems from its declined use or if it’s entirely due to other factors such as generally being diagnosed to a greater degree.
Dr. Russell Barkley has research on the topic if I'm not wrong.
He says it's effective as a treatment for ADHD, but less than traditional stimulants, more prone to addiction and side effects.
Also, despite the rest of the discussion in this thread, nicotine ITSELF is carcinogenic, regardless of the way it's ingested. Not something you want to take long run recurrently.
He says it's effective as a treatment for ADHD, but less than traditional stimulants, more prone to addiction and side effects.
Also, despite the rest of the discussion in this thread, nicotine ITSELF is carcinogenic, regardless of the way it's ingested. Not something you want to take long run recurrently.
> nicotine ITSELF is carcinogenic
That has never been proven conclusively, even with hundreds of studies attempting to do so. At best (if one wants to assume it is a carcinogen), there's some plausible mechanisms where the contaminants/metabolites of nicotine (like NNN) can cause cancer, but there's zero evidence that consuming nicotine in a pure form and without pyrolysis (i.e. not e-cigs) causes cancer.
Heart disease is much more plausible: nicotine can raise blood pressure, narrow arteries, and increase pulse, like many other stimulants. Whether it has uniquely dangerous CVD risks compared to other stims is also far from conclusive.
That has never been proven conclusively, even with hundreds of studies attempting to do so. At best (if one wants to assume it is a carcinogen), there's some plausible mechanisms where the contaminants/metabolites of nicotine (like NNN) can cause cancer, but there's zero evidence that consuming nicotine in a pure form and without pyrolysis (i.e. not e-cigs) causes cancer.
Heart disease is much more plausible: nicotine can raise blood pressure, narrow arteries, and increase pulse, like many other stimulants. Whether it has uniquely dangerous CVD risks compared to other stims is also far from conclusive.
You can find some things online on a thesis that some nicotine addicts could be self-medicating indeed.
[deleted]
I tried nicotine patches (lifelong non-smoker). I didn't see any benefit. I was hoping I can focus more on some boring stuff I needed to get done against a deadline. I just didn't see anything.
I then disclosed that I used nicotine products when I applied for some life insurance. They wanted to put me in the smoker category, I had to spend time with them to explain I never smoked in my life, and the nicotine patches were not for smoking cessation, but just to improve focus.
I then disclosed that I used nicotine products when I applied for some life insurance. They wanted to put me in the smoker category, I had to spend time with them to explain I never smoked in my life, and the nicotine patches were not for smoking cessation, but just to improve focus.
Nicotine has notable antipsychotic properties. I'm not aware of any longer term studies on the isolated side effects of nicotine. Longterm effects of anti-psychotics range from bad to terrible. Nicotine (if the mode of consumption is not smoking) is likely the anti-psychotic with the most beneficial side effect profile. Still I wonder whether there are significant cognitive or emotional effects of long time usage.
I've been addicted to Nicotine lozenges for nearly 10 years now, and have tried to stop multiple times over the past 2. The withdrawal effects are horrific, and I'm pretty much unable to function for a week and have brain fog for a further 3 weeks. Does anyone know if there is something that would counteract the withdrawal effects? My doctor unfortunately just keeps handing me stop smoking leaflets.
Reminds me of the guy in my high school class that got addicted to nicotine patches and had to be hospitalized after he poisoned himself accidentally...
Nicotine is a stimulant but weirdly enough, it has always improved my sleep (even when taken close to sleep). I never really understood why.
Snus is one of life's greatest pleasures.
It is without a doubt. It's baffling to me that people smoke when things like snus exist. Far, far safer than smoking, much cleaner, and it doesn't impact those around you.
Nicotine is a great drug that the world largely insists of using an awful delivery method for.
Nicotine is a great drug that the world largely insists of using an awful delivery method for.
Relevant auto tune the news: https://youtu.be/1dqTrUpmwPg
I started smoking in high school and got turned onto dip by someone I ran cross country with that was on the wrestling team (very common for them to use for weight loss). The dip was really intense and I got a huge buzz from it, but after taking some magic mushrooms around my age 16 I tried to quit it all at once and really thought I was going insane. It was an incredibly potent nootropic though and was easy to hide for taking tests. I felt incredible taking the ACT. I switched back to smoking most of the time because most people think dip is disgusting, but eventually I tired of going outside in the cold and having to the fund the addiction, so I quit. It really wasn’t all that hard in the grand scheme of things, but took a couple of tries. It’s not something you want to undertake without planning or research and you are going to gain some weight and be out of it for a couple weeks. Years later I’d miss it and get back into the occasional cig or e-cigs or nicotine lozenges. Any time I did though they eventually just make me kind of lazy to where I just want to lay around and I realized I was better off going for walks or exercising. I don’t think it’s so bad to quit but it can mess up your stomach and you might lose a night of sleep so it’s not the funnest thing in the world. The last time I did this it was at night, I had an interview the next morning, and my stomach hurt from constipation so I gave up and put in a lozenge for a minute which unstopped me, but then couldn’t sleep due to the stimulation, had a horrible interview the next day and then went through with quitting.
If you can find the right dose/form then it really does have a boost to your brain, but my experience with this sort of thing is sort of like putting NOS in your fuel, it doesn’t matter if you can accelerate fast most of the time, because most of life is about driving safely and consistently at a steady speed and sometimes you can get ahead by speeding up and going through a yellow light to avoid a red, which the NOS can help with but usually burning NOS all the time is just an unnecessary expense. And you don’t want to have something like nicotine withdrawals slowing you down when you’re hitting a yellow like my interview which was a disaster. Having quit amphetamines, coffee, and nicotine multiple times, it’s not that bad, but it’s still a hassle and there’s never a good time and you’re better off eliminating as many hassles as you can from your life imo.
I definitely think the more addictive than heroin line is likely not accurate for nicotine itself but I’ve never been addicted to heroin so idk. I actually still think about starting it up again sometimes even though it’s been 15 years since I quit, maybe 3 since my last lozenge, but overall this experiment for me is concluded and nicotine is something I’m better off living without.
If you can find the right dose/form then it really does have a boost to your brain, but my experience with this sort of thing is sort of like putting NOS in your fuel, it doesn’t matter if you can accelerate fast most of the time, because most of life is about driving safely and consistently at a steady speed and sometimes you can get ahead by speeding up and going through a yellow light to avoid a red, which the NOS can help with but usually burning NOS all the time is just an unnecessary expense. And you don’t want to have something like nicotine withdrawals slowing you down when you’re hitting a yellow like my interview which was a disaster. Having quit amphetamines, coffee, and nicotine multiple times, it’s not that bad, but it’s still a hassle and there’s never a good time and you’re better off eliminating as many hassles as you can from your life imo.
I definitely think the more addictive than heroin line is likely not accurate for nicotine itself but I’ve never been addicted to heroin so idk. I actually still think about starting it up again sometimes even though it’s been 15 years since I quit, maybe 3 since my last lozenge, but overall this experiment for me is concluded and nicotine is something I’m better off living without.
i wonder why the author needs stimulants so much.
Why not? Stimulants are the best thing known to man. There's a reason people enjoy them so much.
Stimulant abuse is pretty accepted in the US. Unless it's meth, which has a negative class connotation.
Swedish snus is my preferred delivery mechanism.
djha-skin(3)
The nicotine chemical is a natural pesticide manufactured by several species of tobacco plants, and in trace amounts within some peppers.
It is approximately 35 times more addictive than Heroin, and has an LD50 so lethal the contents of a few packs/mg of smokes would kill most adult users if they took it all at once.
Due to the intended role in nature, humans also use the compound for its mutagenic properties, and increased lethality in insecticides.
People are foolish, and addicts are experts at rationalizing self-destructive coping methods. Smoking/Vaping is primarily considered a disgusting habit in many western culture now, but is still plaguing the poor of many countries.
Get angry, quit cold turkey, and stay angry for 3 months... Then tell others to switch to rage-o-hol if they don't want skin like a dried out pear later in life.
I am sure people that generate 94% well structured LLM nonsense... also assume the side effects on their sites reputations will be negligible. The content makes it sound like a psychopath wrote it by the way. lol
Keep well our there, =)
It is approximately 35 times more addictive than Heroin, and has an LD50 so lethal the contents of a few packs/mg of smokes would kill most adult users if they took it all at once.
Due to the intended role in nature, humans also use the compound for its mutagenic properties, and increased lethality in insecticides.
People are foolish, and addicts are experts at rationalizing self-destructive coping methods. Smoking/Vaping is primarily considered a disgusting habit in many western culture now, but is still plaguing the poor of many countries.
Get angry, quit cold turkey, and stay angry for 3 months... Then tell others to switch to rage-o-hol if they don't want skin like a dried out pear later in life.
I am sure people that generate 94% well structured LLM nonsense... also assume the side effects on their sites reputations will be negligible. The content makes it sound like a psychopath wrote it by the way. lol
Keep well our there, =)
>”…and is addictive to some degree”
I stopped reading after this part. I’m sorry, but passing off decades of research as “to some degree” when it’s been found to be as addictive as heroin. [0]
So it’s completely asinine to say “to some degree”. By all means, go chew some nicotine gum, you’ll be wanting more in an hour. Next thing you know you’re eating a pack a day, for 30 years, until your arteries hardened and you block your heart. All for a pick me up in the evening. Take a nap.
[0] https://www.ucsfhealth.org/conditions/nicotine-dependence
I stopped reading after this part. I’m sorry, but passing off decades of research as “to some degree” when it’s been found to be as addictive as heroin. [0]
So it’s completely asinine to say “to some degree”. By all means, go chew some nicotine gum, you’ll be wanting more in an hour. Next thing you know you’re eating a pack a day, for 30 years, until your arteries hardened and you block your heart. All for a pick me up in the evening. Take a nap.
[0] https://www.ucsfhealth.org/conditions/nicotine-dependence
You really should have kept reading because this is addressed
And dismissed over and over again. The author is playing with cyanide and doesn’t even understand that.
Tobacco is addictive, nicotine alone without MAOIs is not nearly as addictive.
It would probably be useful to actually read before you comment. He meticulously cites the sources of his claims with actual studies.
>”…My take away is that there is addiction but it’s drastically overestimated”
It goes on and on. The author is ignorant.
It goes on and on. The author is ignorant.
Modafinil is a Dave Asprey bullshit lie. It does not promote nootropic benefits or flow work or anything like that. Pretty much anything Dave Asprey says is bullshit.
I have ADHD; getting Concerta here is near impossible, so I've been using Modafinil. It's been extremely effective.
That’s incredible. Unlike adhd meds, modafinil is neither addictive nor neuro toxic.
I've anecdotally found modafinil to be great for focus if I didn't sleep the night before, makes the day less miserable.
Never tried it casually.
It is, however, extremely useful to treat narcolepsy.
That hasn't been my experience of it.
I use it only rarely, maybe once every 3-4 weeks when I'm feeling particularly fatigued but must deliver. I always find it really beneficial, and often find myself in a flow state - which, now in my 40s, happens very rarely these days.
I use it only rarely, maybe once every 3-4 weeks when I'm feeling particularly fatigued but must deliver. I always find it really beneficial, and often find myself in a flow state - which, now in my 40s, happens very rarely these days.
I wrote some terrible code on modafanil but I did write it for 6 hours straight.
That's called a work day.
But I normally go to the bathroom and eat lunch during a work day.
Smoking will give you cancer, and nicotine will make you addicted so you can never ever stop.
The article wasn’t talking about smoking, and nicotine is not addictive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine
> Nicotine is highly addictive.
https://nida.nih.gov/publications/research-reports/tobacco-n...
> Is nicotine addictive? Yes.
---
If nicotine wasn't addictive, why would people find that nicotine patches or nicotine gum helps with withdrawals from various tobacco products?
> Nicotine is highly addictive.
https://nida.nih.gov/publications/research-reports/tobacco-n...
> Is nicotine addictive? Yes.
---
If nicotine wasn't addictive, why would people find that nicotine patches or nicotine gum helps with withdrawals from various tobacco products?
Addiction is complex. Folks are generally addicted to a combination of things. For example they’ll do a particular drug, sit in a particular environment, with or without a social element, with or without food. Utilizing one of the elements without the others helps break the association. Its the same thing on a smaller level.
Furthermore, why do people have withdrawal symptoms coming off the patches and gum?
These sources do not address the claims made in the article.
You may be right, maybe those sources are examples of ones which mix up tobacco and nicotine.
Let's take it from the article instead:
> like all stimulants, nicotine may raise blood pressure somewhat, and is addictive to some degree, but the risks do not appear much more strikingly harmful than caffeine or modafinil
And:
> My take away is that there is addiction but it’s drastically overestimated by almost everyone and may been conflated with the habit-formation capability
I'm not criticizing the article, I'm disagreeing with the statement "nicotine is not addictive". I wouldn't have commented to disagree with a statement like "nicotine's addictiveness is exaggerated because it's conflated with tobacco's addictiveness", but that wasn't what goodluckchuck said
Let's take it from the article instead:
> like all stimulants, nicotine may raise blood pressure somewhat, and is addictive to some degree, but the risks do not appear much more strikingly harmful than caffeine or modafinil
And:
> My take away is that there is addiction but it’s drastically overestimated by almost everyone and may been conflated with the habit-formation capability
I'm not criticizing the article, I'm disagreeing with the statement "nicotine is not addictive". I wouldn't have commented to disagree with a statement like "nicotine's addictiveness is exaggerated because it's conflated with tobacco's addictiveness", but that wasn't what goodluckchuck said
[deleted]
Nicotine not addictive? That’s a bold claim.
ΔFosB expression is lower from nicotine than it is caffeine.
I'm not familiar with the biochemistry involved or what exactly "ΔFosB expression" means, and I don't know if the term "addiction" is used in its strictly technical definition here (i.e activating the reward circuit) or if it's used to generally mean some form of dependence...
but it's worth noting that caffeine dependence is pretty common.
but it's worth noting that caffeine dependence is pretty common.
The article cites some fairly convincing studies that the addictiveness is from tobacco’s other (non-nicotine) chemicals including MAOIs.
Is smoking addictive? Absolutely, but not because it contains nicotine.
Is smoking addictive? Absolutely, but not because it contains nicotine.
The articles seems much more inconclusive than your comment implies. On one hand, yes, they point out that MAOIs may be confounding. But they also say:
“additional work since 2002 has clearly shown that nicotine alone does have some addictive properties”
And, frustratingly, they point out that addiction effects can’t be parsed out using smokers because of the confounding effects of other chemicals present in tobacco yet they quote a study using smokers to support the non-addiction claim.
“additional work since 2002 has clearly shown that nicotine alone does have some addictive properties”
And, frustratingly, they point out that addiction effects can’t be parsed out using smokers because of the confounding effects of other chemicals present in tobacco yet they quote a study using smokers to support the non-addiction claim.
If nicotine wasn't addictive then kids who never used tobacco wouldn't get hooked on vape, which they do.
Nicotine is just terrible for you. Smoking is linked to alzheimers and I watched my grandfather smoke his pipe and decline cognitively with that disease. Im not sure if its only proven from the toxins in smoke or the nicotine but I would assume constricting the blood vessels (with nicotine) leads to plaque buildup in the body and brain.
Because of the vessel constriction is stops healing in the body as well all the way to your bones dealing with microfractures and remodeling.
That said, Ill have the occasional cigar.
Because of the vessel constriction is stops healing in the body as well all the way to your bones dealing with microfractures and remodeling.
That said, Ill have the occasional cigar.
You mean smoking is terrible for you. As the cited studies indicate, nicotine itself (delivered by patched / gum) is fairly harmless. Not completely risk free, but nothing at all like smoking.
There's some studies suggesting nordic Snus (like all natural chew w/o chemicals added) is fairly harmless. Anecdotally I've read people highly addicted to it, so very suspicious of any claim that nicotine itself isn't addictive and just smoking is.
Does snus have much flavor? I've wondered if the psychological part of nicotine addiction is much stronger when there's a smell/taste association with the drug effect. (I'm not a smoker, just seen a couple hints suggesting this.)
It does. It has a slight burning sensation on the gum (salt?) and has an earthy / spiced flavour.
You don't taste it much unless you consume beer/coffee/water at the same, but if so the right brands and combinations can be quite pleasant.
They also make menthol ones.
You don't taste it much unless you consume beer/coffee/water at the same, but if so the right brands and combinations can be quite pleasant.
They also make menthol ones.
Thanks, that updates me a bit more towards that hypothesis. I tried to search once for whether unflavored vaping was better than flavored for quitting smoking, but didn't find anything relevant at least back then.
That computes with this article which discusses the addictiveness of naturally occurring MAOIs found in organic tobacco.
Snus is quite common in my country, Sweden. Many users are former smokers who "quit" by using snus instead as their source of nicotine.
Users I know have said that they feel that it is highly addictive.
Studies of snus users have indicated increased risks of cancer in the mouth, throat and gastrointestinal system but have not been conclusive as to how. There's also a newer type of snus not made from tobacco, with pure nicotine as a separate ingredient, but it has been studied much less.
Nicotine is still widely considered harmful for the cardiovascular system though. I've had two surgeries this past year and been told to not even chew nicotine gum for a week before because of how nicotine in my system could lead to complications.
Studies of snus users have indicated increased risks of cancer in the mouth, throat and gastrointestinal system but have not been conclusive as to how. There's also a newer type of snus not made from tobacco, with pure nicotine as a separate ingredient, but it has been studied much less.
Nicotine is still widely considered harmful for the cardiovascular system though. I've had two surgeries this past year and been told to not even chew nicotine gum for a week before because of how nicotine in my system could lead to complications.
It appears there are some conflicting studies, like with everything.
My best interpretation is that nicotine itself probably isn't the-worst-thing-ever if it was restricted to occasional usage, like having a beer on the weekend.
It's probably not a good idea to make a habit of though like with coffee.
There's a theory floating around that it may help with long-Covid symptoms, but there's not a lot of evidence. This may be in part due to the general opposition towards tobacco as extremely unhealthy.
I only heard of this because a neighbor says using nicotine gum restored her sense of smell.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9845100/
Again, anecdotally I had a relative, very heavy smoker, who got Delta and had very mild symptoms. She's 80 and in pretty poor health. Others younger in the same household had it much worse.
https://aacijournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s1322...
My best interpretation is that nicotine itself probably isn't the-worst-thing-ever if it was restricted to occasional usage, like having a beer on the weekend.
It's probably not a good idea to make a habit of though like with coffee.
There's a theory floating around that it may help with long-Covid symptoms, but there's not a lot of evidence. This may be in part due to the general opposition towards tobacco as extremely unhealthy.
I only heard of this because a neighbor says using nicotine gum restored her sense of smell.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9845100/
Again, anecdotally I had a relative, very heavy smoker, who got Delta and had very mild symptoms. She's 80 and in pretty poor health. Others younger in the same household had it much worse.
https://aacijournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s1322...
No, I mean nicotine as I clearly indicated in my comment. It's not harmless and its ridiculous to think a drug that constricts the vessels and blood flow in your body would be so.
> its ridiculous to think a drug that constricts the vessels and blood flow in your body would be [harmless]
Without knowing more about human physiology, this physiological description is a boogeyman. Someone could describe the physiological effects of eating lettuce while making the same claim about said effect and it would be obvious to a layperson as nonsense only because they know the topic. It’s not ridiculous to think this is possibly harmless in certain contexts.
Without knowing more about human physiology, this physiological description is a boogeyman. Someone could describe the physiological effects of eating lettuce while making the same claim about said effect and it would be obvious to a layperson as nonsense only because they know the topic. It’s not ridiculous to think this is possibly harmless in certain contexts.
> It's not harmless and its ridiculous to think a drug that constricts the vessels and blood flow in your body would be so.
Why? Because it increases blood pressure?
That's a problem if it's chronic and severe, afaik a milk vasoconstrictive effect isn't going to kill you.
Why? Because it increases blood pressure?
That's a problem if it's chronic and severe, afaik a milk vasoconstrictive effect isn't going to kill you.
Like caffeine?
Good thing I don't drink coffee.
Is that a counterpoint? Pointing to something unrelated from the conversation. Maybe both arnt great for you?
it's a great counterpoint, because they're is a lot of literature on the health effects of caffeine.
> Maybe both aren't great for you?
Maybe? You are the one making strong assertions about vasoconstrictors. Maybe you should take this opportunity to challenge your beliefs on this by digging into scientific literature.
Also, "aren't great" is such a softening of your original opinion "just terrible". Why argue for your ignorance when there is actual scientific literature?
> Maybe both aren't great for you?
Maybe? You are the one making strong assertions about vasoconstrictors. Maybe you should take this opportunity to challenge your beliefs on this by digging into scientific literature.
Also, "aren't great" is such a softening of your original opinion "just terrible". Why argue for your ignorance when there is actual scientific literature?
Isn't caffeine a vasoconstrictor as well? Wouldn't that make coffee a silent killer?
I don't get how so many people like coffee. I've tried it maybe a handful of times in my life, getting the type that my friends said is great, and I've always found it to be reminiscent of dirty water, that is, water that has been contaminated with dirt.
Why do so many people like it?
My friends say they like the taste, but I don't believe them. I think it has to do with them being coerced into liking coffee at a young age, and now they're addicted to it because of its caffeine content.
I come from a country (Macedonia, ruled over by the Ottomans for more than 500 years. The Ottomans liked their coffee) where every going out with friends is centered around coffee. So when people want to hang out, they never, ever, say stuff like "Hey, let's hang out", but always "Let's drink coffee" (I understand people in the civilized world, people say stuff like this too to hang out with friends, particularly in America (I'm not familiar with Western Europe as I haven't lived there, though I assume its similar to the US), but not like they do here, and the surrounding regions.)
And when you do go out to hang out casually with friends, it's always to a fucking cafe because they want to get their daily dose of caffeine in, because they're totally not addicted to it.
(The overwhelming majority of people here go to cafes every day to drink coffee with their friends, who also drink coffee. It's become something like a ritual for them at this point.)
When I hang out with my friends in a cafe, naturally as their sacred ritual insists, and I order anything other than coffee, which I always do, other than those 2 times, they look at me like I've just committed the mother of all sins.
I apologize for my off-topic rant, but I had to get it off my chest.
Why do so many people like it?
My friends say they like the taste, but I don't believe them. I think it has to do with them being coerced into liking coffee at a young age, and now they're addicted to it because of its caffeine content.
I come from a country (Macedonia, ruled over by the Ottomans for more than 500 years. The Ottomans liked their coffee) where every going out with friends is centered around coffee. So when people want to hang out, they never, ever, say stuff like "Hey, let's hang out", but always "Let's drink coffee" (I understand people in the civilized world, people say stuff like this too to hang out with friends, particularly in America (I'm not familiar with Western Europe as I haven't lived there, though I assume its similar to the US), but not like they do here, and the surrounding regions.)
And when you do go out to hang out casually with friends, it's always to a fucking cafe because they want to get their daily dose of caffeine in, because they're totally not addicted to it.
(The overwhelming majority of people here go to cafes every day to drink coffee with their friends, who also drink coffee. It's become something like a ritual for them at this point.)
When I hang out with my friends in a cafe, naturally as their sacred ritual insists, and I order anything other than coffee, which I always do, other than those 2 times, they look at me like I've just committed the mother of all sins.
I apologize for my off-topic rant, but I had to get it off my chest.
i can't taste cardamom. when i taste freshly ground cardamom it's like eting a pinch of sand.
maybe you have something like that going on with coffee.
i'll say i had no interest in coffee until i tried it in my early 30's and really enjoyed it, though i found the caffine too strong. now i drink it every day (smaller cups though.) point being, i wasn't made to like coffee at a young age, and i've liked it ever since i started drinking it.
maybe you have something like that going on with coffee.
i'll say i had no interest in coffee until i tried it in my early 30's and really enjoyed it, though i found the caffine too strong. now i drink it every day (smaller cups though.) point being, i wasn't made to like coffee at a young age, and i've liked it ever since i started drinking it.
> My friends say they like the taste, but I don't believe them. I think it has to do with them being coerced into liking coffee at a young age, and now they're addicted to it because of its caffeine content.
Daily coffee drinker here. Maybe I'm in the minority but I really enjoy the taste (strong espresso without sugar/milk) and really dislike the caffeine content (always prefer decaf, if available).
Daily coffee drinker here. Maybe I'm in the minority but I really enjoy the taste (strong espresso without sugar/milk) and really dislike the caffeine content (always prefer decaf, if available).
Also a daily coffee drinker.
I have a theory that humans like _complexity_. I’m pretty sure I didn’t originally like coffee (or e.g. scotch), but I do now because part of my brain really enjoys analyzing the flavor.
It’s a different enjoyment than e.g. donuts or bananas, which just ‘taste good’. Coffee (and whisky) ‘tastes interesting’ to a degree that overcomes the initial harshness.
So GP is sort of correct for the most basic interpretation. They’re just not appreciating that enjoyment and liking are not always straightforward.
I have a theory that humans like _complexity_. I’m pretty sure I didn’t originally like coffee (or e.g. scotch), but I do now because part of my brain really enjoys analyzing the flavor.
It’s a different enjoyment than e.g. donuts or bananas, which just ‘taste good’. Coffee (and whisky) ‘tastes interesting’ to a degree that overcomes the initial harshness.
So GP is sort of correct for the most basic interpretation. They’re just not appreciating that enjoyment and liking are not always straightforward.
Coffee is delicious and worsens my arthritis. I drink a coffee substitute called Dandy Blend most days, but damn do I miss the real stuff.
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Theres a lot of people who are dumping caffeine for all sorts of reasons. Caffeine does indeed constrict blood vessels and thats probably not great tbh. But people (including myself) love their cup of coffee.
Like… people do get addicted to caffeine right? I know people who drink a very large amount of coffee, who “can’t function” without it, and who generally seem to be in a pretty bad shape.
The behavior of a certain segment of the population with regard to coffee looks a hell of a lot like the stereotypical addictions to drugs, including just ending up in bad shape. Totally anecdotal of course but “caffeine in large amounts bad” aligns with a lot of human behavior.
The behavior of a certain segment of the population with regard to coffee looks a hell of a lot like the stereotypical addictions to drugs, including just ending up in bad shape. Totally anecdotal of course but “caffeine in large amounts bad” aligns with a lot of human behavior.
Coffee is linked with significant health benefits for most people, but it isn’t the caffeine that responsible.
Coffee has a significant amount of antioxidants and Is the most significant source of antioxidants for many people. Even decaf coffee has health benefits.
Coffee has a significant amount of antioxidants and Is the most significant source of antioxidants for many people. Even decaf coffee has health benefits.
Caffeine physiological addiction is very light. Withdrawal symptoms last about 2 days and are mild.
> including just ending up in bad shape
Not sure what you mean by that, I'm not aware of people ending up on the streets because of caffeine.
> including just ending up in bad shape
Not sure what you mean by that, I'm not aware of people ending up on the streets because of caffeine.
[deleted]
street price of coffee is a little lower than other drugs
Maybe it is? It's really hard to know what things will cause damage over decades.
But if you do become addicted to nicotine, and are one of the people with a high propensity for nicotine addiction, you're fucked. It's one of the most challenging addictions to quit, as we all know. Is this a risk you want to take for some mild stimulation? As a former smoker, I can only believe that anyone who takes this risk does not fully appreciate the consequences. The exception might be people who have consumed nicotine on and off but have never had addictive tendencies. Those people definitely exist, but it still seems like a risky thing to assume about yourself since being wrong could be life altering.
I also take exception to the articles emphasis that moving on to cigarettes is the only real risk. Yes, that's where the majority of the health problems come from. But don't underestimate the negative consequences of a physical addiction, even one that does not lead to health problems. It is not fun to be addicted to anything that contorts your body and mind outside of your control.