BMW to shame out-of-warranty UK drivers with smart billboards(thedrive.com)
thedrive.com
BMW to shame out-of-warranty UK drivers with smart billboards
https://www.thedrive.com/news/38406/bmw-will-publicly-shame-out-of-warranty-drivers-with-smart-billboards-and-license-plate-readers
350 comments
I used to really like BMWs but they have lost their way in my opinion. Front wheel drive models, charging a subscription for Apple CarPlay, that 4-series grill, increasingly horrific customer service at dealers and foregoing their position as the market leader in handling and dynamics really rub me up the wrong way.
Exactly, they’ve gone for luxury but not as well as MB or Audi who are now eating their lunch. To say nothing of Porsche taking the sportscar and sporty SUV market profits. CarPlay subscription is just offensive.
M2cs or M5c are still by far the best cars in their class. While I'm not a fan of BMW's new design language (think the 4-series, or the iX), nor their move to subscription-based features, it's still my go-to brand. Other (non-exotic) brands are either downsizing (2.0 engine in the new C63 AMG for gods sake) or going fully electric – and I like my v8 rumble in the morning.
Not sure why you're being down-voted, the M2 and the M5 are among the best driver-focused cars being made right now (a dying breed, those driver-focused cars, but that's another discussion), but that still shouldn't excuse BMW for dick moves like this one (I consider it a dick move).
2.0 engine in the new C63 AMG for gods sake
This sounds bad until you realise that over the past 20 years manufacturers switched from cast iron to full aluminium blocks, which have over twice the thermal conductivity.
There's no need for 4.0+ displacements anymore, because they were only there because of the low (tolerable) power density of iron block engines.
Sure, turbos etc. sound like a hack and a hack they are, but the era of V8 rumble is gone for good.
All this will be replaced by electric anyway.
This sounds bad until you realise that over the past 20 years manufacturers switched from cast iron to full aluminium blocks, which have over twice the thermal conductivity.
There's no need for 4.0+ displacements anymore, because they were only there because of the low (tolerable) power density of iron block engines.
Sure, turbos etc. sound like a hack and a hack they are, but the era of V8 rumble is gone for good.
All this will be replaced by electric anyway.
2021 Corvette Stingray (6.2l V8), 2021 Dodge Challenger (6.4l V8), 2021 Camaro SS/ZL1 (6.2l V8), 2020 Mustang 5.0, various trucks - there's still plenty of modern car with V8, often even N/A V8s.
People buy cars like that because they like the V8 rumble. I have an older 3.0l N/A I6 BMW (N52), and not because I couldn't have gotten a more feature-loaded Honda for the same price.
People buy cars like that because they like the V8 rumble. I have an older 3.0l N/A I6 BMW (N52), and not because I couldn't have gotten a more feature-loaded Honda for the same price.
Ford recently rolled out a completely new big block v8 engine family for their trucks and vans. OEMs don't do that kind of thing unless they expect to crank them out for 10-20yr.
I think it's important to point out that all those cars come from a country where gasoline is cheap and emissions rules lax. The rest of the world, for the most part, moved on.
Indeed, in my country I'd say a 1.6/1.8 is "standard" and anything over a 2.4 uncommon. Plenty of 1.2s/1.4s around for students and the budget sensitive too, and even some 1.0s (current model Nissan Micra, Honda Civic)
There's no need to pay 10x when you can buy Dacia Logan. Yet people still paying it to get something they don't have in Logan. Big bad engine is one of those features I guess.
> Sure, turbos etc. sound like a hack and a hack they are, but the era of V8 rumble is gone for good.
tell that to the new c8 corvette.
anyways, the C63 AMG is a $70,000 car. for that price you should be able to get a v8 or at least a v6, even if it makes no sense. lots of cars that are way cheaper still have more than four cylinders.
tell that to the new c8 corvette.
anyways, the C63 AMG is a $70,000 car. for that price you should be able to get a v8 or at least a v6, even if it makes no sense. lots of cars that are way cheaper still have more than four cylinders.
The value of an engine is not determined by the number of cylinders. You aren't owed a certain number just because you payed a certain amount. An argument can be made that v8+ are capable of being more sonically pleasing, but it ends there.
Can’t speak to the technical argument. I can agree with you that my dads Lexus sc400 from 2000 had a great sound and super smooth driver (v8). That engine was a workhorse... over 500k km and still rocking. The rest of the accessories were falling apart (door handles, leather) but that engine was rock solid.
The value is determined by the customer. An electric motor is, in every respect except its inability to use energy-dense fuels, pretty much perfect. Just not very interesting.
As a toy, an ICE has value. They shouldn't work at all! it's a ridiculous idea. It's quite cool that they do anyway.
As a toy, an ICE has value. They shouldn't work at all! it's a ridiculous idea. It's quite cool that they do anyway.
yeah no one buys an amg because it's a sensible vehicle. these are the folks who sell a 600 hp station wagon.
I would argue that the station wagon is a great idea. A car like that allows enthusiasts to buy something that isn't completely impractical for most non-enthusiast things.
keep in mind this is a vehicle that starts at $110k. you could buy a nice sports car and a practical family vehicle for that money. I do know a guy that has one and uses it as a daily. he loves it, but he also owns a cayman and a forester, so it's not exactly the "one car that does it all".
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There is a big difference between a BMW or BMW with M sport packet, and a BMW M.
The BMW Ms are actually developed by a different company (the BMW M company, which is different from the BMW company).
For some reason people think of them as being extremely similar, but anybody that has driven a BMW 3xx and a BMW M3 knows that there is a world between them.
The BMW Ms are actually developed by a different company (the BMW M company, which is different from the BMW company).
For some reason people think of them as being extremely similar, but anybody that has driven a BMW 3xx and a BMW M3 knows that there is a world between them.
Isn't BMWs V8 rumble recorded and piped through speakers?
There is a clip of the M4 with the system on and later off: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gB0apslghXU
I might be a bit biased because my first car was a used M3 e36 back in the 90s. My wife just bought the M5 last year, admittedly one of the best driving experiences in recent years.
The M2CS may be a great driver’s car in its class but not the best in its price bracket (at UK prices).
welcome to the future, subscription services are what a lot of car makers moving too. if anything one of the first was OnStar which has some monthly fees that will make you wince.
what worries me is that app integration may be a fee based service for some cars.
As for BMW, I owned one and enjoyed it very much but the running commentary on BMW is that you own them only while they are under warranty.
what worries me is that app integration may be a fee based service for some cars.
As for BMW, I owned one and enjoyed it very much but the running commentary on BMW is that you own them only while they are under warranty.
> charging a subscription for Apple CarPlay
Well that's a scam if there ever was one. Who wants a subscription for basic functionality in a car? Might as well buy an iPad and solder it over BMW's control panel.
Well that's a scam if there ever was one. Who wants a subscription for basic functionality in a car? Might as well buy an iPad and solder it over BMW's control panel.
I believe they are planning to sell heated seats as a subscription service as well.
Makes no sense and really transparently benefits the company over the actual "owner" of the car. Why would I ever buy something like that.
Makes no sense and really transparently benefits the company over the actual "owner" of the car. Why would I ever buy something like that.
A heated seat subscription makes sense when they sell the car to you as if it didn't have heated seats and are allowing you to purchase them at a later date, much like how Tesla's rear heated seats can be bought long after the purchase of the vehicle. It allows the manufacturer to decrease MSRP $x amount (for Tesla, $300) while also saving money on the back-end by not having to handle more part choices being involved in the manufacturing processes.
The same generally applies for Carplay but it makes less sense given carplay is easy to integrate, only needs to be done once, and is then-on maintained by Apple/Google (for Android Auto), and the measly subscription cost for Carplay most certainly wasn't considered when determining MSRP. The same probably applies for the heated seats argument (did BMW really take into account the subscription costs when determining MSRP), with Tesla probably being the only manufacturer actually doing this since they already take into account things like FSD being unavailable on SR+ Model 3's and no EAP on SR Model 3's, even though all models have the same sensors and cameras and HW3 (although non-plus SR models are no longer being produced, so I'm not sure if they ever got hw2.5 or hw3 included).
The same generally applies for Carplay but it makes less sense given carplay is easy to integrate, only needs to be done once, and is then-on maintained by Apple/Google (for Android Auto), and the measly subscription cost for Carplay most certainly wasn't considered when determining MSRP. The same probably applies for the heated seats argument (did BMW really take into account the subscription costs when determining MSRP), with Tesla probably being the only manufacturer actually doing this since they already take into account things like FSD being unavailable on SR+ Model 3's and no EAP on SR Model 3's, even though all models have the same sensors and cameras and HW3 (although non-plus SR models are no longer being produced, so I'm not sure if they ever got hw2.5 or hw3 included).
No, it really doesn't.
No, I don't want to "subscribe" to everything. Only bean counters think that. I don't mind subscribing to a music service because they have constant royalty fees, new music, etc and it's a classic "thing". Heated seats are a functionality that once paid for should be yours if you paid for the option. They aren't coming out every year and replacing the heating coils with newer fancier coils, it's a freakin' heater. It also sets a horrible precedent.
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In my 2016 BMW, CarPlay was so incredibly buggy. Unsure who's at fault on that, but the thought of paying a subscription for it makes me chuckle.
Interesting. In my Mazda it works really well. The only thing that bothers me is that the car has a no-phone system that is the default, and you always have to switch to Car Play. But Car Play is much, much better, so it would be nice if I could just make it always be on.
The big German car makers go out of their way to reinvent the digital wheel at any opportunity. The next series will have completely different electronics from different cheapest OEMs with a whole new set of bugs in all components and their integration.
In Japan, electronics seem to be more evolutionary and software reuse is practiced more, so while the rotating-car-animation-bling-factor might be lower, bugs are also ironed out over time.
In Japan, electronics seem to be more evolutionary and software reuse is practiced more, so while the rotating-car-animation-bling-factor might be lower, bugs are also ironed out over time.
Press and hold Home to switch to CarPlay quickly on Mazda.
> Who wants a subscription for basic functionality in a car?
I don't get this fundamental objection.
It's just a different way to pay. Either you pay up-front or you pay a subscription. Work out the total cost of ownership (you'll need to estimate how long you likely keep the car either way.) Now take that final figure and either it's worth it to you or it isn't. How that final figure gets paid doesn't seem like a big deal?
I don't get this fundamental objection.
It's just a different way to pay. Either you pay up-front or you pay a subscription. Work out the total cost of ownership (you'll need to estimate how long you likely keep the car either way.) Now take that final figure and either it's worth it to you or it isn't. How that final figure gets paid doesn't seem like a big deal?
For subscriptions they can just change the price at a whim, stop offering your the service whenever they want or change it in a way that you don't want to. When you own / own the license to the software / feature, they can't just pull a fast one as easily.
Can confirm. Used to work for FCA in uconnect V2X. There is was no need to process diagnostic features in cloud as the TBM unit has enough capability to process it in the car and display. But the business decided to move processing to cloud and charge premium for monthly subscriptions.
Wait this seems like an argument for subscription. If the product is changed with an update you don't like, or becomes incompatible with your new phone, or an update to your phone, or stops being useful to you for some other reason, you can stop paying.
If you pay £2k up front for CarPlay as an option and then Apple changes the protocol and you can't use it you're stuck with a lemon you already paid for. As a subscription you can stop paying.
If you pay £2k up front for CarPlay as an option and then Apple changes the protocol and you can't use it you're stuck with a lemon you already paid for. As a subscription you can stop paying.
> the product is changed with an update you don't like
Well, you're just left with a 30-50k car with reduced functionality. And, to be honest, CarPlay functionality (or similar) is pretty much fundamental - music, maps - and there's a clear upside of having it integrated with the car (vs. the driver looking down at the phone while driving) and trivial cost (cheaper that developing own software & OS).
The reason I want CarPlay in the first place is because I don't trust carmakers to make good software (borne out of experience!). I'm buying a car to be a car, I want to BYOS (Bring Your Own Software).
Well, you're just left with a 30-50k car with reduced functionality. And, to be honest, CarPlay functionality (or similar) is pretty much fundamental - music, maps - and there's a clear upside of having it integrated with the car (vs. the driver looking down at the phone while driving) and trivial cost (cheaper that developing own software & OS).
The reason I want CarPlay in the first place is because I don't trust carmakers to make good software (borne out of experience!). I'm buying a car to be a car, I want to BYOS (Bring Your Own Software).
But this is the case whether you pay up front or as a subscription.
So what is the upside to paying up front?
So what is the upside to paying up front?
A subscription is only worthwhile if it reduces the up front purchase price. This being BMW, you know that won’t be the case; you’ll be stuck paying full price for the car and paying a monthly fee for a feature that comes standard on much cheaper cars.
Consumers would be more willing to accept that from a budget brand, not a luxury brand.
Consumers would be more willing to accept that from a budget brand, not a luxury brand.
Ah right, I might have missed your point, if "subscription" is the only thing you're objecting to.
First, it's obviously a scam. I'm not getting extra value in exchange for money, the product is done. It's even worse than various software subscriptions - at least there your code is continuously being improved and updated to the latest version. Therefore, literally the only reason the company is doing that, is to scam me out of more money.
Second is the trust issue - and I'm not just talking about legal scams - e.g. changing terms and conditions in the future - which could in theory be solved via courts / customer protection laws (but in practice, won't be) but more about the fact that the car company has the ability to disable (parts of) my car! So I wouldn't be buying such a car (asterisk) even if they gave me a "special offer" of $0-forever subscription! They can still change the terms at any point in the future, and it would require massive effort on my part to fix that.
Edit: Having said that, paying $2k up front for CarPlay is also a scam - but at least it makes it easier to estimate the total cost/value of the feature, hence reducing the risk (and mental drag) of owning it...
Edit2: Btw, I have this objection with any "subscription" service... e.g. buying leasehold (subscription) house (although even buying freehold (ownership) house isn't without risk in the UK, you never know who has a preexisting claim on the property...)
(asterisk): assuming other options are available... which is the whole reason we must fight against this, sooner or later... in M$ Office and non-smart TVs, this train has already left the station!
First, it's obviously a scam. I'm not getting extra value in exchange for money, the product is done. It's even worse than various software subscriptions - at least there your code is continuously being improved and updated to the latest version. Therefore, literally the only reason the company is doing that, is to scam me out of more money.
Second is the trust issue - and I'm not just talking about legal scams - e.g. changing terms and conditions in the future - which could in theory be solved via courts / customer protection laws (but in practice, won't be) but more about the fact that the car company has the ability to disable (parts of) my car! So I wouldn't be buying such a car (asterisk) even if they gave me a "special offer" of $0-forever subscription! They can still change the terms at any point in the future, and it would require massive effort on my part to fix that.
Edit: Having said that, paying $2k up front for CarPlay is also a scam - but at least it makes it easier to estimate the total cost/value of the feature, hence reducing the risk (and mental drag) of owning it...
Edit2: Btw, I have this objection with any "subscription" service... e.g. buying leasehold (subscription) house (although even buying freehold (ownership) house isn't without risk in the UK, you never know who has a preexisting claim on the property...)
(asterisk): assuming other options are available... which is the whole reason we must fight against this, sooner or later... in M$ Office and non-smart TVs, this train has already left the station!
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> I'm not getting extra value in exchange for money
Wait, if you're not getting extra value from the product every extra month you use it, then stop paying the subscription! That's the beauty of it!
Wait, if you're not getting extra value from the product every extra month you use it, then stop paying the subscription! That's the beauty of it!
I mean, why not pay a subscription for a knife? You're getting "extra value" from it every time you use it!
Just, no. By "extra" value I mean "extra extra" value - in case of software, new features & updates (which, of course, could also bring no extra value to you, but they do at least in theory).
Btw, I'm not objecting to choice. You want to avoid paying up-front cost for your knives, buy subscription instead? Be my guest! But if the company is forcing you to do this, then it's obviously a good (profitable) deal for them, and a bad deal (scam) for you.
Just, no. By "extra" value I mean "extra extra" value - in case of software, new features & updates (which, of course, could also bring no extra value to you, but they do at least in theory).
Btw, I'm not objecting to choice. You want to avoid paying up-front cost for your knives, buy subscription instead? Be my guest! But if the company is forcing you to do this, then it's obviously a good (profitable) deal for them, and a bad deal (scam) for you.
> But if the company is forcing you to do this
I'm really not sure anyone is forced to drive a BMW, are they.
> But if the company is forcing you to do this, then it's obviously a good (profitable) deal for them, and a bad deal (scam) for you.
I think this is unnecessarily cynical.
I'm really not sure anyone is forced to drive a BMW, are they.
> But if the company is forcing you to do this, then it's obviously a good (profitable) deal for them, and a bad deal (scam) for you.
I think this is unnecessarily cynical.
You're moving the goal post here. Obviously you can buy a different brand of car. This subscription stuff smells of anti-consumer intent to keep milking them. I think there should be legislation to prevent such things.
It seems like you're trying to catch this guy out for cognitive dissonance but I'm not seeing it.
CarPlay is offered in perfectly functional forms in the market right now for a reasonable upfront price that people will pay for a known feature set.
A subscription arguably can make the product less valuable, because of uncertainty about continuing support, changes to the subscription model or software, and an unknown price that will likely end up being higher than the flat fee offered by competitors.
This isn't cognitive dissonance, it's worry that BMW might pull a bait and switch.
CarPlay is offered in perfectly functional forms in the market right now for a reasonable upfront price that people will pay for a known feature set.
A subscription arguably can make the product less valuable, because of uncertainty about continuing support, changes to the subscription model or software, and an unknown price that will likely end up being higher than the flat fee offered by competitors.
This isn't cognitive dissonance, it's worry that BMW might pull a bait and switch.
But uncertainty about ongoing support is a problem anyway because Apple could change the protocol.
That doesn't justify adding additional uncertainty about what BMW is going to do with their sunscriptions and software and for how long.
And anyway, confidence in Apple is justifiably higher.
And anyway, confidence in Apple is justifiably higher.
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> So what is the upside to paying up front?
A ceiling on the price? Now granted this is a BMW, so I wouldn’t dare own it outside of the warranty period, but I usually keep a car 10-15 years. So the longer I keep the car, the more this feature with a low, fixed cost, costs? Screw that.
A ceiling on the price? Now granted this is a BMW, so I wouldn’t dare own it outside of the warranty period, but I usually keep a car 10-15 years. So the longer I keep the car, the more this feature with a low, fixed cost, costs? Screw that.
> A ceiling on the price?
So just factor that into your equation. Some people would prefer a ceiling, some flexibility. The point is it isn't obviously and inherently a 'scam.' It's just a different way to price and pay for things.
So just factor that into your equation. Some people would prefer a ceiling, some flexibility. The point is it isn't obviously and inherently a 'scam.' It's just a different way to price and pay for things.
> The point is it isn't obviously and inherently a 'scam.'
For myself, and it seems like pretty much everyone except for yourself, it definitely is. ;)
But, point taken. Only ~95% of people seem to consider it a scam, and an obvious one. ;)
For myself, and it seems like pretty much everyone except for yourself, it definitely is. ;)
But, point taken. Only ~95% of people seem to consider it a scam, and an obvious one. ;)
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BMW charged $80/yr for a feature that used to cost $300 total. They since reversed it and now offer the feature for free (i.e. back into the initial cost) due to backlash.
I don't understand why this perfectly valid comment is getting downvoted.
It is not like BMW sold the item and only then decided to start charging. When you buy it is up to you to understand all the up front and delayed cost. Most people prefer delayed costs.
It is not like BMW sold the item and only then decided to start charging. When you buy it is up to you to understand all the up front and delayed cost. Most people prefer delayed costs.
I look forward to paying a monthly fee for using Bluetooth in my car.
Without sarcasm, I think cars as a subscription has some interesting possibility and I wouldn't object to it. Land Rover has a new subscription product but doesn't seem to have a lot of momentum behind it. You pay a monthly fee that isn't more than if you financed the whole car at the moment, and you can keep getting new vehicles and absolutely everything (servicing etc) is covered because they're motivated to keep re-sale value extremely high because re-selling it is their problem.
I think software, cars, etc, as a service is somewhat liberating and I'm in favour of it.
I think software, cars, etc, as a service is somewhat liberating and I'm in favour of it.
Through an altruistic lens this seems like a good idea. But realistically economy driven by quarterly reports I see this devolving into a dystopian tail really quickly.
I don't think Land Rover can get it done. However Apple and/or Tesla might have the fandom to pull something like this off.
I don't think Land Rover can get it done. However Apple and/or Tesla might have the fandom to pull something like this off.
You could call it a "lease"
A car 'lease' is an existing way to get a car that isn't the same as these new subscription services.
Land Rover already do leasing - their subscription is a different product.
Land Rover already do leasing - their subscription is a different product.
I don't think you can typically lease a different car every month. I kinda wish you could. I would definitely pay to try a car for a full month before buying it.
Actually you sorta can. I know Volvo has/had a program where you pay something like $1k/month, including insurance, and you can swap out cars twice a month or something like that. I believe some other manufacturers did the same thing.
Yeah... that's the subscription thing we're talking about. Volvo and Jaguar Land Rover have it - not sure about others.
People don't need new vehicles constantly. They buy one that fits their usage and personality and become familiar with it while they keep it for years. What is the purpose of switching out so often? Especially with the limited choice of a single make like Land Rover? How many different SUVs are you going to drive and why?
However electric seat heaters are obviously not something that should be a "thing". Cars and software have been leased for ages. It's the same thing as "a subscription"
"Cars as a service" is called car sharing. It works quite well.
How are they foregoing their position as the market leader in handling and dynamics? They’re still miles ahead of Audis where it feels as if the transmission and the engine are fighting vs each other especially in 50 engines, and Mercedes where it feels you’re driving a barge rather than a car.
> Front wheel drive models,
Better for driving on snow, if you're at a place where that matters.
Better for driving on snow, if you're at a place where that matters.
Marginally so, under certain use cases. Unfortunately, it suddenly becomes worse when you want to steer AND accelerate. And, much like AWD, it can give you a sense of confidence in your ability to move that is not matched by your ability to stop.
If you live somewhere that snow matters, get good tires.
If you live somewhere that snow matters, get good tires.
> Marginally so, under certain use cases.
My reality disagrees. I live in a place with a lot of snow, and pretty much see cars that have sliden off the highway every week. All of them are BMWs. And they are all required by law to have winter tires at least.
Winter tires do help, but there is a huge difference between RWD with good tires and 4 wheel drive (notice also that 4WD and AWD is not the same thing, and there are also different qualities).
(it just so happen that here, BMWs are the most popular rear wheel drive cars)
My reality disagrees. I live in a place with a lot of snow, and pretty much see cars that have sliden off the highway every week. All of them are BMWs. And they are all required by law to have winter tires at least.
Winter tires do help, but there is a huge difference between RWD with good tires and 4 wheel drive (notice also that 4WD and AWD is not the same thing, and there are also different qualities).
(it just so happen that here, BMWs are the most popular rear wheel drive cars)
>Better for driving on snow
Until you have to go up a hill, or steer and drive in several inches of slush. I guess it's marginally more stupid proof if you floor it at a dumb time but that seems like needless optimization of the worst case while totally tanking the average case. With the weight distribution and electronic controls available in modern vehicles FWD has no meaningful benefit other than cost.
Until you have to go up a hill, or steer and drive in several inches of slush. I guess it's marginally more stupid proof if you floor it at a dumb time but that seems like needless optimization of the worst case while totally tanking the average case. With the weight distribution and electronic controls available in modern vehicles FWD has no meaningful benefit other than cost.
>FWD has no meaningful benefit other than cost
... and lower weight, and no tunnel, and more boot space. If anything, it's RWD which struggles to maintain its significance and show its benefits outside of sports. Modern platforms can make the front wheels turn and spin at the same time without much fuss, with driving characteristics determined by other factors.
... and lower weight, and no tunnel, and more boot space. If anything, it's RWD which struggles to maintain its significance and show its benefits outside of sports. Modern platforms can make the front wheels turn and spin at the same time without much fuss, with driving characteristics determined by other factors.
Weight is a wash. We're talking like a cumulative 100lb by integrating the front diff with the transmission and losing the drive shaft. Tunnel is nice but most cars still don't have a flat floor because they stick a tunnel in there for exhaust and the floor-pan is likely shared at least in part with an AWD crossover that puts a drive shaft there and it's usually important enough for floor rigidity so they don't omit it on the FWD models.
>Modern platforms can make the front wheels turn and spin at the same time without much fuss
Yeah they can prevent you from losing traction but you're fundamentally at a disadvantage to RWD because no matter how you cut it you're trying to spread the front traction budget thinner. Everything that makes RWD desirable for the track also makes it desirable for consumer A to B duty.
Don't get me wrong, FWD is great for bringing 0% no money down economy cars to the masses and creating bottom dollar van chassis for employees to abuse but even at its best it's still never going to make varsity in any context where performance actually matters
>Modern platforms can make the front wheels turn and spin at the same time without much fuss
Yeah they can prevent you from losing traction but you're fundamentally at a disadvantage to RWD because no matter how you cut it you're trying to spread the front traction budget thinner. Everything that makes RWD desirable for the track also makes it desirable for consumer A to B duty.
Don't get me wrong, FWD is great for bringing 0% no money down economy cars to the masses and creating bottom dollar van chassis for employees to abuse but even at its best it's still never going to make varsity in any context where performance actually matters
> Don't get me wrong, FWD is great for bringing 0% no money down economy cars to the masses and creating bottom dollar van chassis for employees to abuse but even at its best it's still never going to make varsity in any context where performance actually matters
It's exaggerated. At least 90% of car drivers aren't "performance actually matters".
It's exaggerated. At least 90% of car drivers aren't "performance actually matters".
Are there realistically any cases on public roads where performance actually matters? All typical cars can reach maximum highway speed. At that point it's only a matter of how comfortable that experience is. Comfort and performance may be personal preference, but "actually matters" as in, makes a real difference? Don't think so.
there's an argument to be made that understeer is probably the better failure mode for a poor driver.
anyways, most commuters are probably not approaching the limits of grip while accelerating through corners. most people I know have trouble remembering not to brake through turns. the implications of weight transfer during acceleration for a FWD vehicle are much more noticeable during daily driving. it's especially sad to see with all these 200+ hp hot hatches. they have pretty good power to weight ratios on paper but they just can't put it down. a moderately quick start at an intersection in anything other than ideal conditions results in wheel spin every time.
anyways, most commuters are probably not approaching the limits of grip while accelerating through corners. most people I know have trouble remembering not to brake through turns. the implications of weight transfer during acceleration for a FWD vehicle are much more noticeable during daily driving. it's especially sad to see with all these 200+ hp hot hatches. they have pretty good power to weight ratios on paper but they just can't put it down. a moderately quick start at an intersection in anything other than ideal conditions results in wheel spin every time.
> understeer is probably the better failure mode for a poor driver.
Also I'm pretty sure most of the rwd drivers I see on the side of the road up the local mountain thought they are not poor drivers until the last 2s.
Also I'm pretty sure most of the rwd drivers I see on the side of the road up the local mountain thought they are not poor drivers until the last 2s.
Either BMW changed their mind or overstated what they’re doing, because they are on-record contradicting this story:
https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/bmw-targeted-warra...
BMW has told Motoring Research its targeted billboard warranty adverts – which are claimed to use number plate registration technology to tailor public adverts to BMW drivers – do not actually draw upon vehicle warranty status.
Rather, only publically available information is used. “There is no personalisation visible on the advert and no vehicle or customer data is stored or retained.”
“No personal identifiable information applicable to GDPR is used in the [Vehicle Detection Technology] process nor does VDT ever have access to any personal data.”
https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/bmw-targeted-warra...
BMW has told Motoring Research its targeted billboard warranty adverts – which are claimed to use number plate registration technology to tailor public adverts to BMW drivers – do not actually draw upon vehicle warranty status.
Rather, only publically available information is used. “There is no personalisation visible on the advert and no vehicle or customer data is stored or retained.”
“No personal identifiable information applicable to GDPR is used in the [Vehicle Detection Technology] process nor does VDT ever have access to any personal data.”
That sounds like a weasel word version of "we can detect vehicle warranty status without using PII."
You can probably guess without using PII. In the UK numberplate info is public, you can look up the make, model year and colour of a car just using it's numberplate, and anyone can do this.
Using that info it would be trivial to detect a BMW car that was older than X years old. Where X is number of years the normal non-extended warranty is. You then just assume that any car older than the non-extended warranty doesn't have an extended warranty and display the advert.
Then the only thing the advert would be giving away is that there is a BMW nearby that older than X years. Which anyone with a pair of eyes could figure out because the numbers of UK numberplates encode the issue year (thus the age of the car), and well, BMW's are pretty easy to identify just by looking at them.
Using that info it would be trivial to detect a BMW car that was older than X years old. Where X is number of years the normal non-extended warranty is. You then just assume that any car older than the non-extended warranty doesn't have an extended warranty and display the advert.
Then the only thing the advert would be giving away is that there is a BMW nearby that older than X years. Which anyone with a pair of eyes could figure out because the numbers of UK numberplates encode the issue year (thus the age of the car), and well, BMW's are pretty easy to identify just by looking at them.
They could also not do the numberplate look up and achieve the same end result by posting a billboard that just says 'Don't buy a BMW'
I think they're saying they can't even tell if it's actually out of warranty, ie if you did buy the extended warranty you'd still see the popup.
Most likely they figured out that they are about to violate GDPR and altered the code to also show the notice to those who bought the extended warranty. I cannot imagine execs spending so much money on a project to shame both those who bought an extended warranty and those who didn't. In that case you can just put a static printed ad for the warranty.
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The phrasing around "no vehicle data is stored or retained" implies that they're doing vehicle plate->VIN lookups in their database of cars manufactured and perhaps warranties issued, which as the manufacturer of said car they might well be correct to say that no PII is required. There's a missing piece of anti-targeting marketing legislation here, that GDPR won't cover under PII, even if it is eventually found that their plate lookup is a PII violation:
Can the manufacturer of an object use their privately-held data about the object to target marketing to the bearer/operator/etc. of that object?
Probably, yes, at least until a law is passed or a ruling is issued that states otherwise. The best short-term route of attack here would be on the plate->VIN conversion database, assuming that's what they're using anyways. But long-term, they'll figure out how to use a telephoto lens or LIDAR or paint-embedded QR codes to get VIN numbers somehow, so best to tackle the bigger problem too.
Can the manufacturer of an object use their privately-held data about the object to target marketing to the bearer/operator/etc. of that object?
Probably, yes, at least until a law is passed or a ruling is issued that states otherwise. The best short-term route of attack here would be on the plate->VIN conversion database, assuming that's what they're using anyways. But long-term, they'll figure out how to use a telephoto lens or LIDAR or paint-embedded QR codes to get VIN numbers somehow, so best to tackle the bigger problem too.
As I just said in another comment - they can figure it out without any private information. Licence plates are public and they are allowed to scan one with a camera, and they provide warranty on all BMW cars, so they know(and have the right to know) if a specific car is covered by them or not. They have all the iformation they need.
You're not wrong about them in theory having all the data they need to identify out of warranty cars. But if they are legitimately identifying out of warranty cars (I suspect they're not), then that doesn't give them the right to publicly broadcast the information to the wider world. Which I suspect is the crux of this issue.
But again, it depends what sort of information is broadcast. If the bilboard says "hey, driver of BMW reg number EK16 WHD, your warranty is expired!" then that's definitely a problem. But if all that happens is a generic BMW warranty bilboard appears whenever an out-of-warranty car drives past "hey, is your BMW warranty expired? Extend today!" then it's probably ok legally.
I mean, the next step after this feels like ads on the infotainment system.
"Today's game: Candy Crush!".
But in all seriousness, it would be easy to profile the driver. Is it close to dinner time? "Try out the hot new vegan restaurant, het 10% discount when you show your BMW key. 2 miles away, navigate there, Y/N?". Replace vegan with steak, etc, depending on the profile.
Driving to a residential address in an expensive part of town around dinner time? "Last minute dinner party gift idea: blah blah wines. Shop is en-route, navigate there, Y/N?".
But in all seriousness, it would be easy to profile the driver. Is it close to dinner time? "Try out the hot new vegan restaurant, het 10% discount when you show your BMW key. 2 miles away, navigate there, Y/N?". Replace vegan with steak, etc, depending on the profile.
Driving to a residential address in an expensive part of town around dinner time? "Last minute dinner party gift idea: blah blah wines. Shop is en-route, navigate there, Y/N?".
Not private, personal.
My name is in the phone book, therefore public.
It is also personally identifiable information and protected by European law.
That said, processing this data is legal, but you are missing an important distinction in your logic as it relates to data protection laws.
Whether courts agree that broadcasting this information is legal.. we shall see.
My name is in the phone book, therefore public.
It is also personally identifiable information and protected by European law.
That said, processing this data is legal, but you are missing an important distinction in your logic as it relates to data protection laws.
Whether courts agree that broadcasting this information is legal.. we shall see.
> Licence plates are public and they are allowed to scan one with a camera,
CCTV cameras that record public areas need to be registered with ICO.
CCTV cameras that record public areas need to be registered with ICO.
With this announcement, I hope that, by by helpfully bringing to people's attention that information such as the warranty status of your car is publicly available [1], BMW will annoy a broader group of people than just BMW owners.
[1] Assuming that they are not outright lying here when they say "only publically available information is used."
[1] Assuming that they are not outright lying here when they say "only publically available information is used."
well, certainly the information is publicly available after it's used
This is possible now that Brexit has happened. Whether the UK will need to comply with GDPR or not is dependent on the deal Boris strikes with the EU, if indeed he ever does.
Not quite - GDPR has been onshored into UK law and in effect little changes.
https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/data-protection-at-the-...
https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/data-protection-at-the-...
Note I said "possible". Your link specifically states "During the transition period the GDPR will continue to apply in the UK".
That said, apparently they've just reached a deal, and the transition period ends in 7 days, so lets see what they decided about with data protection.
That said, apparently they've just reached a deal, and the transition period ends in 7 days, so lets see what they decided about with data protection.
Most EU laws are getting grandfathered in post Brexit, but the UK reserves the right to change them whenever they want. In essence, they've branched off their legal code from the EU bramch and can now commit changes to their orivate UK-only branch.
GDPR rights will most likely get eroded in the UK.
GDPR rights will most likely get eroded in the UK.
What echo chamber was the guy/gal behind this living in? Nothing about this sounds like a good idea to increase the value of the brand.
I couldn't agree more. It's a shame, too, because BMW used to run some slick ads and seemed to have a sense of humour. In the mid- to late-90s I worked at an online newspaper and BMW ran banner ads on April 1 for a few years, touting fake features such as laser zappers to keep flies off your windscreen etc.
Not sure which ad agency they use now, but this live billboard thing is just damaging to the brand. Creepy, too.
Not sure which ad agency they use now, but this live billboard thing is just damaging to the brand. Creepy, too.
Creepy, but in line with what the car itself phones home. If you thought Tesla was invasive in its remote control and surveilance, BMW is hell-bent on surpassing them.
This had to cross a line because it was British, but then it couldn't be funny because it was German.
Right. It's not just the privacy violation per se, it's that it's a sign the company is now run by idiots.
I don't buy stuff from companies run by idiots.
I don't buy stuff from companies run by idiots.
The executives from Boeing had to go somewhere? :)
I remember reading an interview with BMW designer that the obnoxiously huge front grills are a nod to the Chinese customers. Chinese customers wanted the drivers in front of them to feel intimidated, as if the car and driver behind wanted to eat them. Other premium brands like Lexus followed with this trend.
Makes me want to get a trailer hitch and do some brake checks.
A nice old Range Rover or even better, a Lada Niva are probably great for that
Makes sense seeing more and more companies taking china’s market more seriously given opportunity. In 10 years or less China will be the next global hegemony, especially if USD looses its reserve status.
Tangentially related to the comment, but seeing more evidence of companies positioning themselves for such a transition.
Tangentially related to the comment, but seeing more evidence of companies positioning themselves for such a transition.
Yes, we’re in the midst of some ghastly thrashing that seems unrecoverable. A paranoid person might think that what we are doing to ourselves is being encouraged by some sort of outside force that has a lot to gain if the US implodes. But that can’t be, can it? No, no. Not possible.
I’m tired of trashy Chinese tastes gaining so much influence in the world.
Now you understand the objection to American influence.
Oddly, the same adjective is frequently used.
Oddly, the same adjective is frequently used.
Sure thing, Chinese amd American tastes are trashy but European tastes are ohhhh so sophisticated!/s If a European company designs an ugly car it can't possibly be because the enlightened European designers have bad taste, it must be because of those savages in the overseas markets and their nefarious influence.
Hmm, never thought of it that way.
I'm tired of whiny Europeans blaming everything on us. If one of your companies designs a shitty car that's your fault.
So basically everything is Chinese' fault, oh how important we are...
Not at all Chinese fault other than China being a huge market and companies tailoring one size fits all in order to profit more. This is a bad strategy and will likely please neither market in the end
Anyway plz don't blame the customers.
Wish you read what I said. I'm not blaming the customers, it's the companies that make unsound compromises to 'kill two birds with one stone'. Short term it works but likely to cost them in the long term
I'm no fan of the design, but BMW has considered their "kidney grille" to be an iconic design element since 1933. https://www.bmw.com/en/design/the-bmw-kidney-grille-through-...
In general, sentences of the form "(I heard from (?P<authority figure>.* ) that )?(?P<bogeyman of the year>.* ) is (?P<influencing us in unseen ways>.* )" should be treated with a great deal of suspicion.
(Extra whitespace insertion to bypass HN formatting)
In general, sentences of the form "(I heard from (?P<authority figure>.* ) that )?(?P<bogeyman of the year>.* ) is (?P<influencing us in unseen ways>.* )" should be treated with a great deal of suspicion.
(Extra whitespace insertion to bypass HN formatting)
Look through that list, many of those kidney grills are modest deign elements with several of them including separate grills for air intakes. The silly giant kidney grills that most people agree look stupid are really an aberration.
Their US market share peaked in 2014 and their total sales peaked in 2015. I am not going to say their a declining brand, but their 2019 market share is only up to 2010 levels.
Their US market share peaked in 2014 and their total sales peaked in 2015. I am not going to say their a declining brand, but their 2019 market share is only up to 2010 levels.
[deleted]
I think they're objecting to the increasing size, not the design element entirely.
It's fine to object to the increasing size, but the comment claimed that a BMW designer said that the big grilles are because Chinese customers want the driver in front "to feel intimidated, as if the car and driver behind wanted to eat them".
Without a source, this comes across as racist. So far I haven't been able to find such a source. The closest I've found is a quote from the lead designer saying that in Europe people want to blend in, but in the rest of the world they want to stand out, and the design follows that. The China connection seems to be extrapolation by journalists and bloggers (because cars with big grilles are popular in China), and the bit about intimidation seems to be fabricated entirely.
Without a source, this comes across as racist. So far I haven't been able to find such a source. The closest I've found is a quote from the lead designer saying that in Europe people want to blend in, but in the rest of the world they want to stand out, and the design follows that. The China connection seems to be extrapolation by journalists and bloggers (because cars with big grilles are popular in China), and the bit about intimidation seems to be fabricated entirely.
Please send me the address of that interview and I'll post it on Weibo and see how the Chinese react to it...
I think it was around the premiere of BMW 7 facelift in 2019. I don't care about or follow automotive news but this was so ridiculous that it imprinted in my memory, it could be one of the awful British tabloids though. All I can find in G search right now are modest claims that indeed some design choices of the 2019 facelift were on request of Chinese customers as they are the major client base of this segment.
There is no interview, GP pulled it out of his ass.
I've never understood this intimidation strategy/mentality. "ooh big/mean/fast/close car behind me - I had better speed up/get out of the way or..." or what, precisely?
Ram me off of the road? Crash into the back of me? Try and eat me?
I don't know what things are like in China, but there is a saying in the UK: "all mouth and no trousers".
Ram me off of the road? Crash into the back of me? Try and eat me?
I don't know what things are like in China, but there is a saying in the UK: "all mouth and no trousers".
I was curious so looked up "all mouth and no trousers". It's corrupted from the expression "all mouth and trousers", and means the same thing!
Whatever it is it works.
I swapped a front clip on an old shitbox because the meaner looking newer front clip was cheaper than shipping a replacement bumper cover and it reduced the number of people who camp in the left lane in front of me by a solid 10% (pulling that number out of my ass but whatever it is it's a noticeable amount).
I swapped a front clip on an old shitbox because the meaner looking newer front clip was cheaper than shipping a replacement bumper cover and it reduced the number of people who camp in the left lane in front of me by a solid 10% (pulling that number out of my ass but whatever it is it's a noticeable amount).
Lexus was first with the absurdly large grills with their "Spindle Grill" design around 2014. BMW was next with the 7-Series and X7, followed quickly by Mercedes.
Germans tell me that they also want intimidating cars for the left lane of the Autobahn.
You don't have a source for this. Quit racebaiting.
Last time I brought a used car ( from a dealership) , and was immediately inundated with dozens of extended warranty sales calls.
I can't imagine this will be anything positive. Give it a decade and other advertisers will open the gate. File for divorce and dating ads will spam you at an intersection.
I can't imagine this will be anything positive. Give it a decade and other advertisers will open the gate. File for divorce and dating ads will spam you at an intersection.
I really wish personalized ads were criminalized. Lets go back to contextual (by location of ad) and general ads. The stalker big brother ad industry needs to be stopped.
My children (one is in High School and the other in College) don't get bothered by advertisements as much as me (are they desensitized?). I would rather pay for most of these "free" services if there was an option to simply opt out of having my data harvested.
It's a paradox: anyone who can afford to pay to opt out is a valuable target for advertisers.
Agreed, although it will be an uphill battle. We are rapidly outsourcing governance to data brokers who will vigorously defend their core business model. Boycotts are likely a good place to start, at least until public institutions can be reclaimed, if they can be.
I saw an article here where a dating app was actually selling it's data to a broker , and then that data was being resold to the US military.
Even more alarming , this appeared to target a specific demographic. I dislike online dating for an array of reasons, not being able to control my personal data is the top one.
The only thing you can do is be mindful of how much data you give out.
Even more alarming , this appeared to target a specific demographic. I dislike online dating for an array of reasons, not being able to control my personal data is the top one.
The only thing you can do is be mindful of how much data you give out.
I think this is basically the norm now, not the exception. Very much share your alarm.
> The only thing you can do is be mindful of how much data you give out.
This is important, but I don't think it's all we can do.
> The only thing you can do is be mindful of how much data you give out.
This is important, but I don't think it's all we can do.
While it might be the dealership, I get spam-type calls asking me to extend my car's warranty constantly... and they have no idea what car I own. (Turns out they didn't want to give my wife's '99 Saturn a warranty after all!)
The extended warranty folks are getting vehicle registration data from the DMV. Although, I wouldn't put it past a dealer to open a new revenue stream selling customer data too.
(I'm still getting "Your warranty will expire soon!" calls for a 16 year old SUV...)
(I'm still getting "Your warranty will expire soon!" calls for a 16 year old SUV...)
I got them for my 1 month old lease too. I guess it’s literally not worth it for them to target better.
You’re lucky. You only got them after buying the car. I own a bicycle and a Metrocard and get one or two a week.
BMW is the most user-hostile car brand there is. They’re constantly seeking ways to squeeze revenue from their owners in slimy ways.
(They charge an annual fee for access to car play, for instance)
(They charge an annual fee for access to car play, for instance)
In US they are experimenting with locking almost all features of the car behind a subscription model, so the car leaves the factory in nearly "full" spec, but then you need to pay a subscription to unlock features. For instance if you like heated seats, you can pay a fee and have them unlocked for a year. Or a radar-based cruise control, or satellite radio, or sport driving modes - everything will have its own price.
Their argument is that in US, something like 90% of all new BMWs are leased - so it's "great" for customers and for businesses, since you can now lease a BMW for your employee very cheaply in the most "basic" spec, and if they want some extra features they can pay for them themselves.
Obviously, it's horseshit. But that's the argument they are using.
Their argument is that in US, something like 90% of all new BMWs are leased - so it's "great" for customers and for businesses, since you can now lease a BMW for your employee very cheaply in the most "basic" spec, and if they want some extra features they can pay for them themselves.
Obviously, it's horseshit. But that's the argument they are using.
Not only in the US. 15 years ago when aircon wasn't yet standard in Germany, they added it to all cars anyways and just deactivated the controls in software. So you still get decreased mileage from weight and friction for the compressor, increased accident-risk for the gas filling, but have to pay extra to get a bit flipped at your friendly dealer to use it...
Do you have a source for this?
And I thought EA was bad...
Eugh. I dread the day my 2010 car needs replacement. It's deliciously dumb: I put petrol in it, and in return, it gets me places.
exactly why I keep feeding my 4Runner whatever parts it wants. it's too dumb to be turned against me, snitch on my speeding habits, or demand to get oil changes on its own terms like a Dodge Sprinter for ex.
Feed me gas, air, electricity, and 0.05 parts and labor, and off u go.
Feed me gas, air, electricity, and 0.05 parts and labor, and off u go.
Yes it can be, but then again there are ways to keep the car longer, I myself drive a 2008 Honda, but at the same time I think it is easy for another 10 years. You should definitely think about taking care of the engine. I hope I can help if I tell you to read about the same transmission fluid for honda https://carfluidsexpert.com/best-transmission-fluid-for-hond... , take a look, I think you will find a lot of universal options. It's worth starting to take care of your car with at least that. I hope I was able to help.
You don’t have to subscribe to the windshield wiper functionality?
BMW is on their way out. They have really lost their way. This is what happens when you move away from focusing on the product/craftsmanship and let bean counters in control.
In my circle (relatively young and educated people in a 2nd world country) Tesla has completely supplanted BMW et al as 'the exclusive car brand'.
Maybe your country is moving up the food chain. In my eastern-European country it seems like every third car is an old BMW.
Exactly - BMW is the has-been German brand, that you can buy as a 10-20 year old import. It holds no cachet and is harder to maintain and less fuel efficient than other brands with similar features.
Tesla is the brand that people aspire to own, that people snap their eyes towards on the street. In small towns, all of the owners of Teslas are known and prestigious individuals.
Functionally though - Teslas are too big and too fast for old European cities. The Renault Zoe seems to sell well but is still very expensive for mass adoption.
Tesla is the brand that people aspire to own, that people snap their eyes towards on the street. In small towns, all of the owners of Teslas are known and prestigious individuals.
Functionally though - Teslas are too big and too fast for old European cities. The Renault Zoe seems to sell well but is still very expensive for mass adoption.
Teslas fit just fine into European cities, they are no larger than BMWs or a VW Passat, not to mention the humongous SUV "tanks" that seem to be so popular.
Tesla isn't that popular in Europe simply because most are not insane enough to spend 80kEUR for Model S - for that price one can easily have a Porsche or some other real luxury or sports car.
And Model 3 is very overpriced for what it is. 55k EUR? For a compact car with mediocre range? Seriously? You can have a Porsche Cayenne for that price. Or two compacts like Renault Clio or even VW Golf.
That is really only for die hard fans of the brand. Nobody else buys it here. Also, the network of charging stations is much less developed in Europe than in the US and most are paid (and pretty expensive at that!).
Status symbols are cool but most people don't have Silicon Valley salaries here.
Tesla isn't that popular in Europe simply because most are not insane enough to spend 80kEUR for Model S - for that price one can easily have a Porsche or some other real luxury or sports car.
And Model 3 is very overpriced for what it is. 55k EUR? For a compact car with mediocre range? Seriously? You can have a Porsche Cayenne for that price. Or two compacts like Renault Clio or even VW Golf.
That is really only for die hard fans of the brand. Nobody else buys it here. Also, the network of charging stations is much less developed in Europe than in the US and most are paid (and pretty expensive at that!).
Status symbols are cool but most people don't have Silicon Valley salaries here.
That is a very high level observation, although I do not disagree entirely. You should not forget about countries like Norway, the Netherland and Switzerland where people really have valley-like salaries.
EV registration numbers are going thru the roof in Norway and the Netherlands.
Also, the most basic Cayenne costs 100k EUR, at least in Switzerland.
Yes - but only because of massive government subsidies for buying electric cars and installation of charge points in those countries, especially in Norway. And given that Tesla is/was pretty much the only thing on the market in that class, no wonder it is selling a lot there.
E.g. Norway has exempted electric cars from 25% VAT. That's some 20k EUR "discount" on a Model S right there. Plus it has excepted EVs from other taxes levied on gasoline and diesel cars. So no wonder that people are buying these vehicles there, they would be stupid not to.
The issue is not people buying electric cars but Tesla's claimed status as some sort of status symbol.
Heck, I would go electric myself if there was a car on the market I could actually justify buying - i.e. with about double the range of the current offerings, reasonable battery replacement costs (not costing more than the value of the car after 5-7 years - see Nissan Leaf ...) and reasonable price at the dealers (i.e. about half of what they cost today). People aren't stupid, they see the advantages of driving electric - but also can buy only as much as their wallets allow.
Cayenne prices start around 78k EUR in France, VAT and government ecology maluses included. So I doubt that 100k figure from Switzerland which has much lower VAT taxes, unless they have slapped some sort of "gas-guzzler" tax on it there (which wouldn't surprise me).
E.g. Norway has exempted electric cars from 25% VAT. That's some 20k EUR "discount" on a Model S right there. Plus it has excepted EVs from other taxes levied on gasoline and diesel cars. So no wonder that people are buying these vehicles there, they would be stupid not to.
The issue is not people buying electric cars but Tesla's claimed status as some sort of status symbol.
Heck, I would go electric myself if there was a car on the market I could actually justify buying - i.e. with about double the range of the current offerings, reasonable battery replacement costs (not costing more than the value of the car after 5-7 years - see Nissan Leaf ...) and reasonable price at the dealers (i.e. about half of what they cost today). People aren't stupid, they see the advantages of driving electric - but also can buy only as much as their wallets allow.
Cayenne prices start around 78k EUR in France, VAT and government ecology maluses included. So I doubt that 100k figure from Switzerland which has much lower VAT taxes, unless they have slapped some sort of "gas-guzzler" tax on it there (which wouldn't surprise me).
Tax policy in some of those countries is doing a lot to equalize the playing field.
kids are also a pretty good indication. if for some reason my model 3 is not parked where it's usually parked, the kids of the neighbourhood come over and ask where the Tesla is. i'm not joking. nobody ever cared where my previous bmw mini, vw golf or land rover parked.
Fads come and go. The minivan was once in. SUVs were next. The prius is in... Who knows what will be next.
Where I live, Tesla has supplanted Porsche as the "compensating for something" car brand.
where I live, most young and educated people don't see anything exclusive in a car. My tech-centric pals drive their old diesel-engines (they had since high-school...) to work and only the people actually working at BMW/Porsche/Mercedes are playing the "lease"-our-stock-game.
This is a weird statement. There's nothing exclusive about the Model 3 or the criminally ugly SUV.
Now, if you meant to say that the Model S is exclusive, you'd be right. Buying one of those puts a person in the exclusive club of people who were too stupid to spend the money on an A8 or a 760 instead.
Edit: An S class would also be a good option. But Heaven help the person who thinks a Model S is in the same league as any of the other $100k cars. Its ride quality is trash. The interior is trash. I've heard plenty of people get defensive about the Model S, but I've never heard anyone mount a real defense of it.
Now, if you meant to say that the Model S is exclusive, you'd be right. Buying one of those puts a person in the exclusive club of people who were too stupid to spend the money on an A8 or a 760 instead.
Edit: An S class would also be a good option. But Heaven help the person who thinks a Model S is in the same league as any of the other $100k cars. Its ride quality is trash. The interior is trash. I've heard plenty of people get defensive about the Model S, but I've never heard anyone mount a real defense of it.
I think the exclusive thing about the Model 3 is the $40k price tag? Sometimes people let little comments like yours slip on this website and I realize how different of a world some people live in
Don't really care about manufacture warranty (3 years... Really? The service packages the dealers sell in Australia are tricky, especially condition-based engine oil change WTF). Self and trusted mechanic friend can take good care of the car (thanks to realoem, newTIS and bimmerPost, BimmerCode etc.).
I didn't even buy (one-off A$395, LCI became subscription and later scraped) CarPlay for my original F87, because I bought F87 for driving pleasure, the engagement / communication with the car while driving it, don't have a spare hand to deal with the buttons or screen to be honest, not even music when doing spirited driving (50% of the time).
I like the classic FR models with straight 6, missed a used 1M coupe (colleague's, gone while hesitating spending 65k buying a used car), ended up with a compromise, OG F87 (not bad, probably the best that money can buy at that time with everything standard except heated steering wheel). It's like 3.0 CSL, 2002 Turbo, E30 M3(straight four), E46 M3, 1M Coupe with the right size, proportion, front kidney grills (not like the new M4's), what timeless design should be like.
Nowadays when looking at the modern BMWs on road, hope I can have a HUD to filter those :shrug.
I didn't even buy (one-off A$395, LCI became subscription and later scraped) CarPlay for my original F87, because I bought F87 for driving pleasure, the engagement / communication with the car while driving it, don't have a spare hand to deal with the buttons or screen to be honest, not even music when doing spirited driving (50% of the time).
I like the classic FR models with straight 6, missed a used 1M coupe (colleague's, gone while hesitating spending 65k buying a used car), ended up with a compromise, OG F87 (not bad, probably the best that money can buy at that time with everything standard except heated steering wheel). It's like 3.0 CSL, 2002 Turbo, E30 M3(straight four), E46 M3, 1M Coupe with the right size, proportion, front kidney grills (not like the new M4's), what timeless design should be like.
Nowadays when looking at the modern BMWs on road, hope I can have a HUD to filter those :shrug.
Warranties are fear-driven anyway, the expected value has to be negative for them to turn a profit. With CarPlay, you're not missing much. I had a Golf R with it, pointless.
I badly wanted a 1M when new but it seemed like a horrible financial decision (even though it wouldn't have been!) and I'd have had to have let go of my Z3M Coupe that I still have today.
I badly wanted a 1M when new but it seemed like a horrible financial decision (even though it wouldn't have been!) and I'd have had to have let go of my Z3M Coupe that I still have today.
Good to know that I haven't missed much without CarpPlay :-)
Agree, especially the standard 3 year warranty, useless. Combined with the basic service package (around 1500~2000 AUD covering 5 years with tricky T&Cs), the car would certainly start to have all sort of problems once reaching the 5 year old mark.
1M Coupe is hell of a car, I admit that I regret not buying one when I had the change (for A$65k - today it still worth that much, even more...). However, 1M Coupe in its stock form is way too firm for Sydney road condition (the manual will also be a pain getting stuck on traffic - if it's a weekend fun car, no prob at all), I felt a bit neck / back discomfort after 30 mins driving my ex-colleagues car, let alone the ride quality (passenger PoV), interior does not live up to its hype either (manual seat adjustment sucks). I am happy that I got the OG F87 M2 with all options as standard that I care (prefer OG M2's look in LLB and its interior - still poor for an entry ///M car at that price).
Z3 M is a classic (unfortunately not available in AUDM), worth keeping. E86 Z4 M coupe was on my list when hunting for my next toy car (still A$52k+ now), love the S54B32 engine.
Agree, especially the standard 3 year warranty, useless. Combined with the basic service package (around 1500~2000 AUD covering 5 years with tricky T&Cs), the car would certainly start to have all sort of problems once reaching the 5 year old mark.
1M Coupe is hell of a car, I admit that I regret not buying one when I had the change (for A$65k - today it still worth that much, even more...). However, 1M Coupe in its stock form is way too firm for Sydney road condition (the manual will also be a pain getting stuck on traffic - if it's a weekend fun car, no prob at all), I felt a bit neck / back discomfort after 30 mins driving my ex-colleagues car, let alone the ride quality (passenger PoV), interior does not live up to its hype either (manual seat adjustment sucks). I am happy that I got the OG F87 M2 with all options as standard that I care (prefer OG M2's look in LLB and its interior - still poor for an entry ///M car at that price).
Z3 M is a classic (unfortunately not available in AUDM), worth keeping. E86 Z4 M coupe was on my list when hunting for my next toy car (still A$52k+ now), love the S54B32 engine.
Wow. Straight out of Minority Report. It seems to me that this would violate laws of some kind.
I suspect they will argue that it doesn't violate laws simply because: the licence plate on your car is public knowledge, they are allowed to scan it with a camera, and since they provide warranty on BMW cars, they own the database that says if that specific car is covered or not. They don't even need to access any of your private information to do this, the two pieces needed are either public(the licence plate) or they own it(knowledge whether that car is covered or not).
Just because you're crossing public data with data you own does not mean you are not breaking the law.
Ok, but then I'm genuienly curious - which laws are being broken? Licence plates in the UK can be scanned by automated machines owned by private companies, that's been established many times before. To request the owner data from the DVLA you need their permission - but that's not necessary here, BMW doesn't need to know anything about the owner, so no such request would be made to the DVLA.
Then on the other side, they have a database of cars that they sold and which are still under warranty - again, nothing about owners, none of the silo'ed personal information needs to be accessed at all. If the car is not on the "warranty==true" list, then they show the ad. I assume the ad doesn't display anything like "hey john smith, your warranty is expired!".
Then on the other side, they have a database of cars that they sold and which are still under warranty - again, nothing about owners, none of the silo'ed personal information needs to be accessed at all. If the car is not on the "warranty==true" list, then they show the ad. I assume the ad doesn't display anything like "hey john smith, your warranty is expired!".
Here is a simple, troubling scenario with this product. You're going to a professional event with your boss. Each of you is driving their own car and your boss is following you. Now your boss knows you have an expired warranty, which, whether you like it or not, will reflect badly on your professional image. You may think this scenario is far-fetched, but it will happen regularly because people who know each other sometimes drive with each other. The same kind of stuff happens with highly personalized advertising on your laptop. All these things seem inoffensive but seriously violate user privacy and will (for sure) get people in trouble in the end.
The EU Charter of Fundamental Rights stipulates that EU citizens have the right to protection of their personal data. And the fact that you (the driver) have an expired warranty is private data. Period. https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-topic/data-protection/data...
Well, UK citizens are no longer EU citizens.
But surely, BMW also simply knows when they sold that specific car thanks to their own records, no?
Like, imagine you were selling cameras, you sold someone a camera and then they come in to your store 5 years later with the same device - is it ok for you to ask "hey, this device has an expired warranty, would you like to extend it?" - you know this because as a seller, you have to keep a record of every device sold. You don't even need to know the owner or any personal information about them - you just know that the camera in front of you has an expired warranty.
>> And the fact that you (the driver) have an expired warranty is private data.
Well I think that's where the problem lies. It's not the driver who has an expired warranty - it's the car that does, and there's nothing you can do, EU or not, to prevent BMW from simply knowing that a car they sold at point X only had a warranty for 3 years. They don't need to know anything about the owner at all.
But surely, BMW also simply knows when they sold that specific car thanks to their own records, no?
Like, imagine you were selling cameras, you sold someone a camera and then they come in to your store 5 years later with the same device - is it ok for you to ask "hey, this device has an expired warranty, would you like to extend it?" - you know this because as a seller, you have to keep a record of every device sold. You don't even need to know the owner or any personal information about them - you just know that the camera in front of you has an expired warranty.
>> And the fact that you (the driver) have an expired warranty is private data.
Well I think that's where the problem lies. It's not the driver who has an expired warranty - it's the car that does, and there's nothing you can do, EU or not, to prevent BMW from simply knowing that a car they sold at point X only had a warranty for 3 years. They don't need to know anything about the owner at all.
>nothing about owners, none of the silo'ed personal information needs to be accessed at all
I mean, they probably don't even have that information for half the cars they scan because the warranty belongs to the car, not the person who bought the car. The warranty is transferred to the new owner if someone sells the car. They will not know the owner of all private used sales and used sales through 3rd party dealers.
I mean, they probably don't even have that information for half the cars they scan because the warranty belongs to the car, not the person who bought the car. The warranty is transferred to the new owner if someone sells the car. They will not know the owner of all private used sales and used sales through 3rd party dealers.
But...why does that matter? They know if a car with licence plate "GH13 JFG" is covered under warranty or not, because they know when they sold it. It doesn't matter if since then it got sold several times. I suppose it won't work any more if you put a custom plate on the car, but if you kept the one it was originally registered with then yeah, it doesn't matter if it's second hand or not.
In EU, this would probably still violate GDPR. They need your consent to use any personal data (data about a person) for anything else than the core service they provide.
Can the car license be tracked back to you? If yes, then anything attached to it is still personal. For example subscriptions or maintenance status.
Can they use this information to deny you access to their services if the subscription expires? Yes! Can they call you that it's about to expire? Probably yes. Can they call you about this other service? No way! Can they publicly shame you? I'd sue them.
Can the car license be tracked back to you? If yes, then anything attached to it is still personal. For example subscriptions or maintenance status.
Can they use this information to deny you access to their services if the subscription expires? Yes! Can they call you that it's about to expire? Probably yes. Can they call you about this other service? No way! Can they publicly shame you? I'd sue them.
Well, what "probably" happens is that whenever an out-of-warranty car is detected, they show a generic bilboard that says "hey, is your BMW out of warranty? Extend today!".
Like I said, in the UK private companies are explicitly allowed to use AMPR machines to read licence plates(every supermarket in this country will have AMPR machines that record when you come and go). BMW just cross-references that with their own record to see if the car is under warranty or not - but like I said, they probably don't actually identify you in any way on the bilboard.
Like I said, in the UK private companies are explicitly allowed to use AMPR machines to read licence plates(every supermarket in this country will have AMPR machines that record when you come and go). BMW just cross-references that with their own record to see if the car is under warranty or not - but like I said, they probably don't actually identify you in any way on the bilboard.
I remembered a product mentioned in the Fetish section of Wired, many years ago, that cited a use-case tailor-made for this. Just found it online [1]; it's the second item in the article. It reads:
__ Action Painting __
Paintball is war, pal, and it demands decisive action, like firing 62-mm paint bombs that turn a 75-foot area into a Jackson Pollock death zone. This bipod-mounted mortar can shoot up to four rounds per minute from its 4-foot aluminum barrel, with consistent aim controlled by traverse and elevation-adjustment screws. The M1A's cardboard-jacket shells contain 20 ounces of nonlethal, water-soluble ordnance in a thin urethane casing that explodes harmlessly on impact. Back in the urban jungle, the 46-pound, CO2-powered cannon doubles as an effective billboard-liberation device.
[1] https://www.wired.com/2000/03/fetish-127/
Edited to add the words "that cited a use-case tailor-made for this".
__ Action Painting __
Paintball is war, pal, and it demands decisive action, like firing 62-mm paint bombs that turn a 75-foot area into a Jackson Pollock death zone. This bipod-mounted mortar can shoot up to four rounds per minute from its 4-foot aluminum barrel, with consistent aim controlled by traverse and elevation-adjustment screws. The M1A's cardboard-jacket shells contain 20 ounces of nonlethal, water-soluble ordnance in a thin urethane casing that explodes harmlessly on impact. Back in the urban jungle, the 46-pound, CO2-powered cannon doubles as an effective billboard-liberation device.
[1] https://www.wired.com/2000/03/fetish-127/
Edited to add the words "that cited a use-case tailor-made for this".
When I read 'fetish', my mind jumped to some exposure service. For a low fee, we'll monitor numberplates and expose your innermost desires when we think there's nobody else around!
Philip K Dick may end up being seen as a prophet the way things are going.
Stories that were meant to be warnings double as instruction manuals.
Would this not be misuse of PII?
You own a particular vehicle registration mark as much as you own a particular phone number, and both can reasonably be used to identify an individual (motor database verus telephone database).
You own a particular vehicle registration mark as much as you own a particular phone number, and both can reasonably be used to identify an individual (motor database verus telephone database).
UK is no longer under the GDPR right?
It is until the end of the 2020 transition period. Thereafter it is not, but the Government intends to introduce similar privacy legislation.
> The Data Protection Act 2018 (DPA 2018), which currently supplements and tailors the GDPR within the UK, will continue to apply.
> The provisions of the GDPR will be incorporated directly into UK law from the end of the transition period, to sit alongside the DPA 2018.
https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/data-protection-at-the-...
> The Data Protection Act 2018 (DPA 2018), which currently supplements and tailors the GDPR within the UK, will continue to apply.
> The provisions of the GDPR will be incorporated directly into UK law from the end of the transition period, to sit alongside the DPA 2018.
https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/data-protection-at-the-...
I know it’s bad form to ask, but I’m curious why this is being downvoted. It’s factually correct so far as I can tell.
It's because Hacker News is very anti-privacy, unless it's their own data.
You should only be allowed to control your own PII if you can afford a $1000 Apple product. Everyone else is fair game.
You should only be allowed to control your own PII if you can afford a $1000 Apple product. Everyone else is fair game.
I guess it's the "government intends to" given how close to the end of the year is
Of course everything regarding the EU exist is a total mess, now, with just 7 days, 9 hours left - including Christmas Day and Boxing Day - so just 2 working days left - we've been told that there is a new trade deal with the EU, which may or may not be passed into law this year on both the EU and the UK side.
I believe that the appropiate laws and instruments are already in place to roll over GDPR into next year
Of course everything regarding the EU exist is a total mess, now, with just 7 days, 9 hours left - including Christmas Day and Boxing Day - so just 2 working days left - we've been told that there is a new trade deal with the EU, which may or may not be passed into law this year on both the EU and the UK side.
I believe that the appropiate laws and instruments are already in place to roll over GDPR into next year
The UK has left the EU however the Data Protection Act 2018 which implemented GDPR within the UK is still in effect.
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About one week left.
Your license plate is public. It’s literally on your car for all to see.
I don't understand why you think that's relevant to whether it's personal data or not.
Here's what the UK DVL say: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/286454/response/69598...
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/286454/response/69598...
Here's what the UK DVL say: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/286454/response/69598...
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/286454/response/69598...
It's not the license plate that's PII, it's whether I've paid my warranty or not.
License plate is I guess PII. Something public doesn't stop it to be PII, like IP addresses.
I don't think the plate itself is PII, like "158.32.44.25" isn't PII. Tying that to a person is what's PII.
In Europe/UK an IP is PII. This link explains it: https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protectio...
Oh nice, that's good to know, thanks!
It should be PII, otherwise I can put cameras all over the city, log license plates, and sell service for you to query.
I think PII according to GDPR is something you can go back to identify a person.
I think PII according to GDPR is something you can go back to identify a person.
> It should be PII, otherwise I can put cameras all over the city, log license plates, and sell service for you to query.
This exists and it’s a very profitable business:
https://www.engadget.com/2019-09-17-repo-drivers-scan-licens...
I think it’s about $20 per query to track a known plate.
This exists and it’s a very profitable business:
https://www.engadget.com/2019-09-17-repo-drivers-scan-licens...
I think it’s about $20 per query to track a known plate.
I'm not sure, but I think the times and locations are PII. Maybe the plate is too, though, good question.
A personal IP address is PII. The same for a license plate. At least under GDPR.
In the UK private companies are allowed to scan licence plates though, literally every single supermarket car park has AMPR cameras which record when you shop there. There's usually a plaque somewhere that says "by entering this carpark you allow us to use information about you".
Having a warranty is boolean, so can't be personally identifying (though it is personal private information). The license plate is unique to your car, so is personally identifying. Edit: the key term is that it's indirectly identifying: https://gdpr.eu/eu-gdpr-personal-data/
Being "called John Smith, living at 12 High Street and having an interest in titty bars" is a boolean too. I'm not sure I'd want that to leak out though, ..., aw crap.
Boolean means there are only two possible values, so the name and address mean that isn't boolean. Only the last bit is, by itself.
I was trying to demonstrate that any information can be trivially encoded as booleans -- "my name is John Smilh", "My name is John Brown", ... and so on gives a series of boolean valued statements, and if you know the answer to all of them, then you know the name of the subject. Booleaness is no barrier to information leakage.
But BMW provides the warranty - so they know whether they, as in - BMW UK - cover a car with this licence plate or not. They don't need any information about you at all, they have the information they need on their side - so they definitely don't need to ask anyone for permission to access it.
I don't think that's the issue here.
The issue is them broadcasting in a Billboard that a BMW nearby doesn't have warranty.
The issue is them broadcasting in a Billboard that a BMW nearby doesn't have warranty.
Depends what the bilboard says. If it says "Hey, BMW EG16WHJ - your warranty is expired!" then yeah, that's probably not ok. But if they detect that a BMW with an expired warranty is stopped near the bilboard and just say "hey, is your BMW warranty expired? Renew today!" then it would be very hard to make an argument against it.
Your warranty status with the original manufacturer is not.
My warranty status is not public.
You probably waived through all of that on GDPR consent page of your BMW app.
Why does BMW even store the license plate? Is the warranty tied to a license plate? And if so, why?
Registration # information is public in the UK. You can just scan any vehicle on the road. I don't think ownership info is, but you can get all the detail of the car it belongs to (or is SUPPOSED to belong to).
Ah, this makes sense (not necessarily that this is public information, but why the scanning works)
They almost certainly don't, most likely there's some lookup table to find VIN from a license plate. I live in the US but I just looked up my VIN correctly by my license plate on VINcheck.info
I think such marketing departments are supposed to test their ideas on a sample of potential customers first. It would be interesting to know whether they did it for this marketing campaign, and if so what are the profiles of their customers.
Makes me want to buy an old mechanical jalopy that can’t be hacked as it is not “smart” and remotely hackable.
Charlie Miller demoed remote hacking on a jeep while on the highway, and being hacked is now a lesser fear to me than being shamed:
https://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-hig...
Charlie Miller demoed remote hacking on a jeep while on the highway, and being hacked is now a lesser fear to me than being shamed:
https://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-hig...
In this case, they are mapping the ANPR derived plate to an in-house database, so that doesn't help.
This is the uncanny valley between dystopian and genius. My vote goes toward dystopian because no doubt extremely targeted billboards or even posters are on their way.
What happens when phones are constantly broadcasting your unique advertising identifier and everyone knows what you’re looking for before they even lay eyes on you?
What happens when phones are constantly broadcasting your unique advertising identifier and everyone knows what you’re looking for before they even lay eyes on you?
Apple car couldn't come sooner, good riddance iDrive and ye olde car manufacturers who can't work together to create a seamless consistently good experience when connecting your smartphone to a car and trying to use the damn car controls with your car being handed off your existing smartphone apps and data connection so they are ready to go immediately. Let me drive the damn car and not fidget with my phone or your distracted driving inducing touchscreen buttonless usability nightmare that is in fashion in cars today (see Tesla).
In my Mercedes they charge thousands more for "hands free calling package" when my basic toyota comes with that out of the box. This upselling of basic tech functionality needs to end and I'm glad Tesla and hopefully Apple car disrupt the mired incumbents.
In my Mercedes they charge thousands more for "hands free calling package" when my basic toyota comes with that out of the box. This upselling of basic tech functionality needs to end and I'm glad Tesla and hopefully Apple car disrupt the mired incumbents.
It makes sense, BMW quit being a car company in the past few years.
Now they’re just clueless assholes. I’ve seen it in their IT systems, their design teams are either on crack or got outsourced to 4 year olds and their product/sales gurus are a mix of bean counters incapable of producing an original idea and a bunch of lifers running on nepotism.
It’s starting to happen and will get even worse, BMW will have a tough decade at least.
Now they’re just clueless assholes. I’ve seen it in their IT systems, their design teams are either on crack or got outsourced to 4 year olds and their product/sales gurus are a mix of bean counters incapable of producing an original idea and a bunch of lifers running on nepotism.
It’s starting to happen and will get even worse, BMW will have a tough decade at least.
> Now they’re just clueless assholes. I’ve seen it in their IT systems, their design teams are either on crack or got outsourced to 4 year olds and their product/sales gurus are a mix of bean counters incapable of producing an original idea and a bunch of lifers running on nepotism.
Can confirm. BMW used to be quite innovative, at least on the scale of German automakers, with their connect services. We have a fairly well equipped and fairly new BMW which includes those services. Not only can they get quite expensive (especially their incredibly pretentious concierge service), but their smartphone integration is awful at least (CarPlay is a subscription). The only connected drive services that could be remotely useful are so bad, they're basically unusable.
> It’s starting to happen and will get even worse, BMW will have a tough decade at least.
The only innovation BMW was able to come up with in the last few years is increasing the size of the front grill. I am not sure if BMW is incompetent, ignorant, uncreative or if they're just aholes (looking at managements behavior during the pandemic, that's certainly the case).
I doubt that BMW will be able to maintain its independence as a car manufacturer in the long run, unless there are some dramatic changes in line. My guess is that they'll be acquired by some other car manufacturer, maybe Daimler (although they face similar challenges), but more likely some huge Chinese company.
Can confirm. BMW used to be quite innovative, at least on the scale of German automakers, with their connect services. We have a fairly well equipped and fairly new BMW which includes those services. Not only can they get quite expensive (especially their incredibly pretentious concierge service), but their smartphone integration is awful at least (CarPlay is a subscription). The only connected drive services that could be remotely useful are so bad, they're basically unusable.
> It’s starting to happen and will get even worse, BMW will have a tough decade at least.
The only innovation BMW was able to come up with in the last few years is increasing the size of the front grill. I am not sure if BMW is incompetent, ignorant, uncreative or if they're just aholes (looking at managements behavior during the pandemic, that's certainly the case).
I doubt that BMW will be able to maintain its independence as a car manufacturer in the long run, unless there are some dramatic changes in line. My guess is that they'll be acquired by some other car manufacturer, maybe Daimler (although they face similar challenges), but more likely some huge Chinese company.
BMW went on stage at WWDC this year to talk about Digital Key for the car. Their marketing page said it works on all 2021 models. The detailed list says Series 1, 2, 3, etc.. I thought this feature is really cool. I am going to buy this car for it. I talked to 2 dealers and confirmed the feature. I looked up all the info online but could not find any more details. I bought a 2021 m240i for $50,000 USD. I could have got a heavily discounted 2020 model off the lot. But no, I wanted to be _sure_ I got the digital key. I was really looking forward to using this feature. Guess what.. no digital key. Frantically go searching the marketing pages. I now find a compatibility table buried deep in their web site (this document didn't exist at time of purchase) where it has a #7 footnote on the series 2: must be 235i cars running iDrive 7.
Thanks BMW! Get your shit together! Anyway, this anecdote is just a taste of what is coming for the car industry. Carplay is only a small preview of the level of integration consumers are going to expect over the next 5-10 years. If they can't sort out a digital key across their lineup, they are kind of fucked.
Thanks BMW! Get your shit together! Anyway, this anecdote is just a taste of what is coming for the car industry. Carplay is only a small preview of the level of integration consumers are going to expect over the next 5-10 years. If they can't sort out a digital key across their lineup, they are kind of fucked.
> Carplay is only a small preview of the level of integration consumers are going to expect over the next 5-10 years. If they can't sort out a digital key across their lineup, they are kind of fucked.
Oh absolutely. The infotainment system of the German premium automakers is utter trash. It's slow, overwhelming and incredibly tedious to use. My family owns five cars, a BMW, an Audi, a Seat and 2 VW, except for one VW they are all fairly new. The BMW and the Audi infotainment system are equally bad, by far the best ones are integrated in the Volkswagen vehicles. But when comparing them with competitors like Tesla, they still suck.
I don't like Tesla, but credit where credit is due. They software concept for their vehicles is innovative, thought out and incredibly feature rich. If this is what VW, Daimler and BMW aim for, they still have an incredibly long way to go.
Oh absolutely. The infotainment system of the German premium automakers is utter trash. It's slow, overwhelming and incredibly tedious to use. My family owns five cars, a BMW, an Audi, a Seat and 2 VW, except for one VW they are all fairly new. The BMW and the Audi infotainment system are equally bad, by far the best ones are integrated in the Volkswagen vehicles. But when comparing them with competitors like Tesla, they still suck.
I don't like Tesla, but credit where credit is due. They software concept for their vehicles is innovative, thought out and incredibly feature rich. If this is what VW, Daimler and BMW aim for, they still have an incredibly long way to go.
If it's any conciliation personally I think you have the nicer car mechanically. The m240i is a rwd straight 6 with the legendary zf 8hp gearbox whilst the newer m235i is an awd 4 cylinder with some inferior aisin gearbox.
Thanks! I think so too which is why I didn't put up a fuss about it. I really wanted this car a lot. Lot's of therapy sessions to get over the fact I need to use a real key though.
Is it possible for your to return the car and get a different model since the dealership obviously lied to you? Seems like a huge premium to pay for a non-existent feature.
IOT is going to utterly trash the auto industry (which admittedly is already in poor shape) and make an even larger mess of the environment by turning cars into pre-mature waste - because you mentioned, it's not been thoughtfully implemented (and I doubt will be).
Think that digital key is going to work in 20 years when you're on iOS 44 or whatever? I'd be genuinely shocked.
Think that digital key is going to work in 20 years when you're on iOS 44 or whatever? I'd be genuinely shocked.
I absolutely hate the UConnect software/entertainment systems in Dodge/Chrysler models, not sure how much this is/was from Daimler though. AFAIK they've relatively recently switched to Android Mobile systems, but I haven't tried them.
It's hard to believe that nobody came up with a good/open AV integration for mobile/smart phones a decade ago. Gotta love proprietary interfaces that stop getting updates 2 years in for a car that should last 10+ years at least.
It's hard to believe that nobody came up with a good/open AV integration for mobile/smart phones a decade ago. Gotta love proprietary interfaces that stop getting updates 2 years in for a car that should last 10+ years at least.
A friend of mine owns a Jeep with a Uconnect infotainment system and let me tell you, Daimler is very far ahead with their current generation of infotainment system.
They launched their MBUX platform a few years ago and hat huge goals, since I don't own a mercedes, I don't know if they managed to keep up with those. However, from what I read online, it doesn't look like it
They launched their MBUX platform a few years ago and hat huge goals, since I don't own a mercedes, I don't know if they managed to keep up with those. However, from what I read online, it doesn't look like it
> CarPlay is a subscription
Fortunately they cut that shit out a year ago: https://www.theverge.com/2019/12/4/20995630/bmw-apple-carpla...
Fortunately they cut that shit out a year ago: https://www.theverge.com/2019/12/4/20995630/bmw-apple-carpla...
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Idk, I was in a new bmw recently and thought it was cool. Driver assist to stay in lanes. Full touch dash across the entire dashboard. Verbal assistant worked well and was able to adjust settings intuitively.
I'm still too poor to buy one new, but it didn't seem completely without innovation.
I'm still too poor to buy one new, but it didn't seem completely without innovation.
My 2017 Seat Leon costs significantly less than a comparable BMW 1. I have a decent navigation system, voice controls, Android Auto and CarPlay, touch infotainment (not a fan), and lane assist, emergency break assist and several others. A friend of mine bought a BMW 1 which cost 12k more than my car (MSRP) and, excluding the gps navigation, has none of those features.
Those aren't innovations, those are almost standard in lots of vehicles.
Those aren't innovations, those are almost standard in lots of vehicles.
Lol. I just looked at that car online. Comparing it to a bmw is laughable in every sense.
Performance, not comparable.
Safety rating, not comparable.
Exterior and interior styling, laughably non existent in the Leon.
Give me a break.
BMW operate like a company that have given up on expanding their addressable market and now seek to extract as much value from it as possible. In a vacuum, this is common and makes sense, but not at the cusp of a revolution in that industry.
I spent a long time sceptical about that other car company. But I've realised I can never overestimate how much the traditional companies will screw up.
I spent a long time sceptical about that other car company. But I've realised I can never overestimate how much the traditional companies will screw up.
I think it's the opposite problem, they're trying to expand to fill every niche and in so doing have lost focus on what made them appealing.
Just look at their model range nowadays, it's vast, confusing and insipid. Very little of it is inspiring unless you think 650bhp in an SUV is interesting.
Just look at their model range nowadays, it's vast, confusing and insipid. Very little of it is inspiring unless you think 650bhp in an SUV is interesting.
Very little of it is inspiring unless you think 650bhp in an SUV is interesting.
Depends on where you live. I drive a really small but acceptably fast car, but I'm frequently surrounded by giant lifted trucks that block all visibility. I want a taller vehicle just so I don't die, but don't want to give up the 6 second 0-60.
Depends on where you live. I drive a really small but acceptably fast car, but I'm frequently surrounded by giant lifted trucks that block all visibility. I want a taller vehicle just so I don't die, but don't want to give up the 6 second 0-60.
6 second 0-60 isn't that hard to hit, and doesn't need anything like 650 bhp, even on a larger frame.
Unless you are sub 3s, mostly what you need is a bit of torque lower in the range, and a suspension & tires that can deliver it to the road. This, along with transmission ratios, trades off against other things people often want in their cars.
hp above 300ish is mostly about what happens (or doesn't happen) at triple digit speeds, at least for regular passenger vehicles not towing large loads. The latter is all about torque available at what range but that can push you into higher hp territory.
Unless you are sub 3s, mostly what you need is a bit of torque lower in the range, and a suspension & tires that can deliver it to the road. This, along with transmission ratios, trades off against other things people often want in their cars.
hp above 300ish is mostly about what happens (or doesn't happen) at triple digit speeds, at least for regular passenger vehicles not towing large loads. The latter is all about torque available at what range but that can push you into higher hp territory.
The new front grill is atrocious. I saw their new electric model. An unispired SUV on steroids with a butt ugly grill.
If that isn't for the Chinese market, I am completely baffled about their so-called design. What we really don't need is more cars that look like angry predators or "gaming" PC cases.
This is the illuminated one, yeah? They look decent in person, I saw a few of the pre-prod grills at $WORK. I don't think it was worth how much went into making them though. A lot of individual components in that grille, and an absolute astonishing amount of development had to be done by suppliers.
Illuminated? It's clearly for the Chinese market then. I'm talking about the grille on the iX. I wonder what's next, an electric X6 with this grill, the pinnacle of ugliness?
Compare that with the M2 which is a looker and a badass car.
Compare that with the M2 which is a looker and a badass car.
Speaking as an M2 owner (and an E36 owner before that), can confirm it's an excellent looking and performing car--arguably the last "enthusiast" car BMW has produced.
I'm also pretty annoyed with the current direction, and if I get another car (performance or otherwise) it's very unlikely to be a BMW.
I'm also pretty annoyed with the current direction, and if I get another car (performance or otherwise) it's very unlikely to be a BMW.
Likewise, I just picked up a 2021 M2 which I heard will switch to something new in 2022. I love the car. You can feel all of the engineering and craft in the driving experience.
The G87 will be bigger, heavier, and more powerful (B58 or S58 likely), but will definitely lose the feel the F87 platform has. It's a shame :(
CarPlay is no longer a subscription. They are also one of the few automakers to implement wireless CarPlay and it works flawlessly.
Agree. You can see my post above at how upset I was to learn the 240i does not support the digital key for 2021. However, wireless carplay has been a saving grace. Pairs nicely with a MagSafe charger since you can get full car integration without needing to ever plug in.
> CarPlay is a subscription
I've been looking at BMWs this year and IIRC they backed out of this after the backlash: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/technology/bmw-u-turns-ap... - agree with your other points though.
I've been looking at BMWs this year and IIRC they backed out of this after the backlash: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/technology/bmw-u-turns-ap... - agree with your other points though.
For what it is worth, the 2021 models finally seem to have CarPlay as a standard feature, along with a digital dash. Basically parity to what Audi has had for years.
BMW seem to have always had fairly nutty UIs in their cars. It was consistently brought up in loads of car reviews going back to the early 2000s (both Top Gear through to the more serious articles).
The thing with a big knob behind the gear stick was really hard to use (i-Drive from years ago)
The thing with a big knob behind the gear stick was really hard to use (i-Drive from years ago)
> mix of bean counters incapable of producing an original idea and a bunch of lifers running on nepotism.
"The father buys, the son builds, the grandchild sells, and his son begs"
The grandchildren are too far removed from what it took to raise the golden cow. So they just milk it.
"The father buys, the son builds, the grandchild sells, and his son begs"
The grandchildren are too far removed from what it took to raise the golden cow. So they just milk it.
The car driver doesn't fall far from the factory.
>It makes sense, BMW quit being a car company in the past few years.
BMW has always first and foremost been a logo marketing company. They exist so moderately rich people can show off how moderately rich they are by driving a car with a BMW logo on it.
BMW has always first and foremost been a logo marketing company. They exist so moderately rich people can show off how moderately rich they are by driving a car with a BMW logo on it.
At least they used to try to be look a very precise, very german, drivers car. They stuck with rear wheel drive, and used fantastic inline 6 engines until CAFE regulations pretty much made them unfeasible. They lost me and become a marketing company when the model names started being what i would call “un-german”. With the model, you used to know what you got. 325t? 3 series, 2.5l displacement, has a turbo. 540ci? 5 series, 4.0l, coupe. Sometimes in 2007-2011 timeframe, the number no longer corresponded to what the vehicle was. 330 was a 2.0l turbo, 335 was a 3.0l turbo... they just couldn't put smaller numbers on the model. Thats marketing, thats not what I want in my very precise driving machine. Its been a downhill slide ever since. But thats what the masses want and buy... so whatever. Also they dont make a manual M5 anymore, ultimate driving machine my ass. Their maintenance has always been a gate-kept rip off though.
I currently own a 23 yo and a 10 yo BMW. The first is a fun fun fun car to drive, and the reason I haven't sold it yet. The second is an awesome car... and cost me an ungodly amount of money to get and keep in shape.
They definitely were a car enthusiast company, at some point. My next car will be Japanese.
They definitely were a car enthusiast company, at some point. My next car will be Japanese.
The cars are good though. I owned one once, and it drove like magic.
There was a time when BMW was an enthusiast's brand, and to a degree that DNA is still there. The M3 remains a benchmark, and by most accounts even the base 3 series is one of the better driver's cars in it's class.
But BMW has been rewarded for producing over-styled cars that are more known as a status symbol by the general public than as a benchmark for fun, practical, rwd cars. They have been plagued with absolutely shameful longevity issues, caused by mind boggling engineering decisions, and catering primarily to people that love cars will never be the most profitable option.
They aren't alone, Mercedes has made many of the same choices, although Porsche remains relatively true to form, with the people who choose to buy them being no fault of theirs.
But BMW has been rewarded for producing over-styled cars that are more known as a status symbol by the general public than as a benchmark for fun, practical, rwd cars. They have been plagued with absolutely shameful longevity issues, caused by mind boggling engineering decisions, and catering primarily to people that love cars will never be the most profitable option.
They aren't alone, Mercedes has made many of the same choices, although Porsche remains relatively true to form, with the people who choose to buy them being no fault of theirs.
> BMW will have a tough decade at least
This seems like a vast understatement. The article is about a BMW campaign in which BMW will pay a lot of money to shame BMW customers and send a very very strong message to anyone who sees these billboards: DON'T BUY BMW.
Somebody inside BMW has an axe to grind and has decided their coworkers are a bunch of idiots. Rather than quit, they've decided to use their coworkers' stupidity against the company. In a too impossible to be be true storyline, they keep pitching obviously self-destructive strategies to their coworkers who lap them up and implement them.
This seems like a vast understatement. The article is about a BMW campaign in which BMW will pay a lot of money to shame BMW customers and send a very very strong message to anyone who sees these billboards: DON'T BUY BMW.
Somebody inside BMW has an axe to grind and has decided their coworkers are a bunch of idiots. Rather than quit, they've decided to use their coworkers' stupidity against the company. In a too impossible to be be true storyline, they keep pitching obviously self-destructive strategies to their coworkers who lap them up and implement them.
> It makes sense, BMW quit being a car company in the past few years.
I'm not in the automotive circle... what do you mean by this? Do they outsource everything now?
I'm not in the automotive circle... what do you mean by this? Do they outsource everything now?
The cool higher-ups see themselves as a [ insert buzzword] company.
From "mobility" to a "services" company, the worst part is they see "making cars people want to buy" as an embarrassment and the whole transition period of "We now make cars the chinese tell us they want, because they are the ones buying them until we reach our Nirvana" it's just corporate sleazeball speak to "let's keep the wheel spinning because we made a terrible mistake but i don't want to lose my job".
From "mobility" to a "services" company, the worst part is they see "making cars people want to buy" as an embarrassment and the whole transition period of "We now make cars the chinese tell us they want, because they are the ones buying them until we reach our Nirvana" it's just corporate sleazeball speak to "let's keep the wheel spinning because we made a terrible mistake but i don't want to lose my job".
I have a BMW and buying a Tesla Model 3 in a few months. I think it's just BMW for the 21st century.
> I think it's just BMW for the 21st century
For people that look at cars as status symbols, sure. Also maybe for people that think straightline performance is all that matters.
All mainstream Tesla's are dogs around turns compared to even baseline luxury German cars.
For people that look at cars as status symbols, sure. Also maybe for people that think straightline performance is all that matters.
All mainstream Tesla's are dogs around turns compared to even baseline luxury German cars.
Sorry, but this is both misinformed, and rudimentary "my first car forum" or "import vs domestic in the 1990s" level analysis of vehicle dynamics. To not even attempt to call out a car model or even a brand or generation, and just hand-wave "baseline luxury German cars", and not attempt to specify what type of cornering you're discussing here.
The biggest problem a Tesla would have vs a competitive ICE sport sedan would be mass, which can hurt all vehicle dynamics; likely on the order of 300-400lbs or so (Model 3 LR: ~4k lbs, 330i ~3600lbs, Model S P75 ~4500lbs, 530i ~4000lbs). Of course it's worth noting that none of these vehicles are featherweights, and the extremely low center of gravity of skateboard battery pack vehicles helps them roll vastly less than one would expect, which helps a lot in transitions and steady state cornering.
Regardless, both the Model S and the Model 3 are extremely well-balanced and the 3 is surprisingly nimble and adjustable. The 3 has a ton of grip, turns in sharply and gets out of corners FAST. I haven't driven a Model X so I can't say.
Source: I instruct, I drive on the track, I own 2 BMWs and 1 Tesla, I've driven numerous BMWs and Teslas including the original roadster on the street and on closed courses. And I've been on car forums for decades and seen endless comments like this.
The biggest problem a Tesla would have vs a competitive ICE sport sedan would be mass, which can hurt all vehicle dynamics; likely on the order of 300-400lbs or so (Model 3 LR: ~4k lbs, 330i ~3600lbs, Model S P75 ~4500lbs, 530i ~4000lbs). Of course it's worth noting that none of these vehicles are featherweights, and the extremely low center of gravity of skateboard battery pack vehicles helps them roll vastly less than one would expect, which helps a lot in transitions and steady state cornering.
Regardless, both the Model S and the Model 3 are extremely well-balanced and the 3 is surprisingly nimble and adjustable. The 3 has a ton of grip, turns in sharply and gets out of corners FAST. I haven't driven a Model X so I can't say.
Source: I instruct, I drive on the track, I own 2 BMWs and 1 Tesla, I've driven numerous BMWs and Teslas including the original roadster on the street and on closed courses. And I've been on car forums for decades and seen endless comments like this.
Take a Model 3 on an autocross track or even a windy mountain road. Then take any BMW or Audi priced $10k-$20k lower (and not the boat SUVs) and tell me which one is more fun to drive.
Also, a Roadster is definitely not a "mainstream Tesla." I used that word to specifically exclude the Roadster, as it's $250k and a completely different discussion.
I agree that using the term "dog" was an exaggeration.
Also, a Roadster is definitely not a "mainstream Tesla." I used that word to specifically exclude the Roadster, as it's $250k and a completely different discussion.
I agree that using the term "dog" was an exaggeration.
Ok, I have a Model 3 and I've autocrossed it and driven it on windy mountain roads, and I have done the same with many BMWs including my own.
And the roadster I was referring to was the original one, not the one that, as far as I know, doesn't exist (though, I can't say I pay a lot of attention to Tesla news because the fanboyism is an absolutely toxic combination of .. well, fanboyism, and automotive ignorance).
I don't think the Model 3 is quite as fun as a manual transmission non-turbo 6cyl BMW 3 series. I get a lot of tactile enjoyment from shifting, I enjoy the sounds of a nice engine, and I enjoy the power delivery of an internal combustion engine. Of course, all of these things that I enjoy are actually things that make the vehicle slower compared to a dual clutch or modern automatic, or a boosted engine of a similar size, or an electric motor with no gearbox required to keep the engine near its powerband; they're all anachronisms.
The extra mass of the Tesla is less of a drawback to me over (say) a turbo BMW 3 series automatic, vice comparing that turbo automatic 3er to a manual BMW 3 series without a turbo. None of these cars can really truly be called "nimble", but I'm quite pleased with the balance, cornering ability and especially outright grip of our RWD Model 3 (with Michelin P4s tires replacing the eco crap of course). It's all a sliding scale, but yes, my primary objection is putting the Teslas in a class entirely below all German sedans. On a mountain road I'd happily take the Model 3 over an A4, even if not the "right" BMW 3 series for the road.
And the roadster I was referring to was the original one, not the one that, as far as I know, doesn't exist (though, I can't say I pay a lot of attention to Tesla news because the fanboyism is an absolutely toxic combination of .. well, fanboyism, and automotive ignorance).
I don't think the Model 3 is quite as fun as a manual transmission non-turbo 6cyl BMW 3 series. I get a lot of tactile enjoyment from shifting, I enjoy the sounds of a nice engine, and I enjoy the power delivery of an internal combustion engine. Of course, all of these things that I enjoy are actually things that make the vehicle slower compared to a dual clutch or modern automatic, or a boosted engine of a similar size, or an electric motor with no gearbox required to keep the engine near its powerband; they're all anachronisms.
The extra mass of the Tesla is less of a drawback to me over (say) a turbo BMW 3 series automatic, vice comparing that turbo automatic 3er to a manual BMW 3 series without a turbo. None of these cars can really truly be called "nimble", but I'm quite pleased with the balance, cornering ability and especially outright grip of our RWD Model 3 (with Michelin P4s tires replacing the eco crap of course). It's all a sliding scale, but yes, my primary objection is putting the Teslas in a class entirely below all German sedans. On a mountain road I'd happily take the Model 3 over an A4, even if not the "right" BMW 3 series for the road.
> Take a Model 3 on an autocross track or even a windy mountain road
Why should I spend a lot of money to improve the 1% of use cases I don't care about?
My 2 biggest worries when I'm driving a BMW are hitting somebody who is walking through the red light in the rain and looking at his mobile phone, and going into a pothole. I want the car with the best automatic emergency system and the room to improve, and Tesla is far the best in this category.
Why should I spend a lot of money to improve the 1% of use cases I don't care about?
My 2 biggest worries when I'm driving a BMW are hitting somebody who is walking through the red light in the rain and looking at his mobile phone, and going into a pothole. I want the car with the best automatic emergency system and the room to improve, and Tesla is far the best in this category.
I actually laughed out loud when BMW ads showed actors dancing around a car, taking their phone out of the pocket, and having to hold it up to the door handle to unlock the car as an example of how modern and tech-forward the brand is.
They truly rethought the driving experience right there.
Added BMW to my vendor shitlist.
It wasn't already?
I never factored them into my plans before. I have eliminated them now :)
I drive a tiny little french thing with a chainsaw engine so probably not my market anyway.
I drive a tiny little french thing with a chainsaw engine so probably not my market anyway.
That is not really fair to whoever actually owns those billboards. Those poor things won't last a week without being hacked or remotely disassembled. How much do those billboards cost?
That’s a really hard sell, meaning difficult. Should I buy a BMW that seems — according to the manufacturer — to need an extended warranty? This also seems like a privacy issue, but only if you and one other car pass by the sign at the exact same time. The most prevalent spam calls on my cell phone are for extended warranties... this seems to cast BMW in the same light unless you really should get the warranty. But, full circle, if that’s right there must be a more reliable comparable car, right? I’m sure BMWs are great but I’d certainly shop alternatives knowing this looms after year 3 of ownership. I also wonder what this means for their certified pre-owned cars.
>> BMW says that they won't store any personal or vehicle data in the system,
But that's pretty much exactly what they're doing. They probably feel the need to claim this in order to not break laws, but saying "We didn't put information about you on a billboard" doesn't mean they didn't do it.
This feels so much like fake news, I hope they actually do it.
But that's pretty much exactly what they're doing. They probably feel the need to claim this in order to not break laws, but saying "We didn't put information about you on a billboard" doesn't mean they didn't do it.
This feels so much like fake news, I hope they actually do it.
As if I needed another reason to not buy a BMW.
All this negativity around BMW and no one even mentions the word "money pit"?
Besides the shitty anti-consumer practices, besides the lack of turn signal usage from average BMW drivers, these cars are still trash unless you're leasing because they are absolute money pits.
Even the Germans in germany who own BMWs and religiously take care of them will have to deal with ultra expensive repairs and problems that one wouldn't find on a Toyota or Lexus.
Germans over-engineer their cars. There are 10 bolts on an engine in a place where a competitor would use two Kinda cool though in a schadenfreude way, because BMW drivers are insufferable about "the ultimate driving machine" right up until the first repair bill comes and then they're suddenly much more interested in japanese naturally aspirated engine vehicles...
Besides the shitty anti-consumer practices, besides the lack of turn signal usage from average BMW drivers, these cars are still trash unless you're leasing because they are absolute money pits.
Even the Germans in germany who own BMWs and religiously take care of them will have to deal with ultra expensive repairs and problems that one wouldn't find on a Toyota or Lexus.
Germans over-engineer their cars. There are 10 bolts on an engine in a place where a competitor would use two Kinda cool though in a schadenfreude way, because BMW drivers are insufferable about "the ultimate driving machine" right up until the first repair bill comes and then they're suddenly much more interested in japanese naturally aspirated engine vehicles...
let’s have a knock down fight in an alley so i can convince you to wear these glasses for a second ...
whoever in BMW, who thought this Public shaming "ads" might increase sales should be given salesperson of the year (add in marketing mozart if you wish)
coming soon, near the traffic lights.
"a smart bill board showing your debt and dues pending to the entire fckng world"
"hello there, yes, you on the red honda civic with number plate xxxx, how are things going on in your bed? last night you searched for it and we are here to help"
how the heck did we end up here, this makes targeted ads look like god send, and here I was thinking targeted ads were the worst to happen in tech :( ..
coming soon, near the traffic lights.
"a smart bill board showing your debt and dues pending to the entire fckng world"
"hello there, yes, you on the red honda civic with number plate xxxx, how are things going on in your bed? last night you searched for it and we are here to help"
how the heck did we end up here, this makes targeted ads look like god send, and here I was thinking targeted ads were the worst to happen in tech :( ..
> "a smart bill board showing your debt and dues pending to the entire fckng world"
The "showing debt" thing I think already happens in China, too lazy to search for the exact reference right now but I remember reading something of the sorts not too long ago. Creepy as hell.
Later edit: Found a quick reference (among many others, I guess): "Chinese debtors shamed with broadcast of names and faces on giant screens on May 1 holiday" [1]
[1] https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2144690/chin...
The "showing debt" thing I think already happens in China, too lazy to search for the exact reference right now but I remember reading something of the sorts not too long ago. Creepy as hell.
Later edit: Found a quick reference (among many others, I guess): "Chinese debtors shamed with broadcast of names and faces on giant screens on May 1 holiday" [1]
[1] https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2144690/chin...
This gives a glimpse into their bright leadership who think that their drivers are some kind of minions who will be compelled by shame. This is pure class, BMW!
This is illegal. Simple as that. It's obviously not going to happen.
A person's warrantee is PII, so making it public will land them with a huge GDPR fine.
A person's warrantee is PII, so making it public will land them with a huge GDPR fine.
For some reason I'm reminded of the story of the early British rail company, which, running out of ways to extract value on ticket prices, segmented their train cars into 3 classes and took the roof off the 3rd class (subjecting it to rain, unpleasant exposure) to scare 1st class passengers into not buying too cheap a ticket.
This reminds me of the story in China and their social credit score. Apparently they will show your face on a billboard if you are deliquent (one example was if you weren't paying child support). And since they can track you using your phone, they only show the 'ad' when you are present in the space.
I had to check the date multiple times, because this reads like an April fools joke, and/or satire article.
Philip K Dick sure understood the things to come
http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=1825
From Lies, Inc also released with quite a bit of variation as The Unteleported Man
http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=1825
From Lies, Inc also released with quite a bit of variation as The Unteleported Man
Good. I swore my 2013 335i would be my last BMW, they keep giving me reasons not to regret the choice.
Futher into dystopia. How long until facial scans and personalised public adverts that go wrong?
Coming at you from the same company that wants you to pay every year to use CarPlay.
Yet another Reason why BMW is losing ground dramatically to Tesla.
Jerk as a service rarely ends well.
Jerk as a service rarely ends well.
Lol at trying to shame BMW drivers.
Do they do any market research on how their products are used?
Do they do any market research on how their products are used?
It is oddly amusing. I do not own one, but few of my friends do and the refrain seems to be, it is fine to own 'as long as it has warranty'. It is nice to see BMW leadership recognizing this.
This is a nightmare. Getting spammed by ads on my devices is bad enough. Now when I go out in public I get shamed for all to see. Targeted automated advertising has got to be banned outright.
Seriously if I see this show up in me 4 year old out of warranty X3 it will be the last BMW I buy. What marketing numpty thought this was a good idea...
Makes me want to mount my plate on a hinge and get an old power door lock out of a junkyard to use as an actuator.
What an excellent way of convincing me to never buy a car from them.
I assume anyone willing to buy a BMW at this point isn’t possible to be dissuaded.
Am surprised that this is legal in the UK, quite shocking really
No one but the Sales and Ad Men need smart billboards.
The people doing the “car warranty” phone scam are making more money and didn’t have to do any ML or image recognition R&D. In fact, their profit margin might be better because they don’t pay out ... they have zero post-acquisition costs!
This shows a bug in capitalism: The scammers work less hard to make more money and will go out of business still in denial.
This shows a bug in capitalism: The scammers work less hard to make more money and will go out of business still in denial.
I mean I know the UK just crashed out of the EU but surely there's a GDPR issue with this?
Why would they have access to the number plate database? Surely that's a GDPR violation.
"The pricks are on the inside"
so much for connected features
For sure this needs special consent regarding GDPR, no clue about Brexit though.
BMW jerks deserve to be shamed. :P
This claim is disputed.
This claim is disputed.
It would be interesting to see stats on aggressive driving by brand. My guess is that BMW drivers would be well near the most aggressive on the list.
You know the old joke: what's the most depressing (least fulfilling) job? Installing turn signals in a BMW factory.
The results almost certainly vary by region (because regional traffic, weather and economic conditions impact who buys what).
Measuring aggressiveness is going to be a measurement of outliers. For everyone weaving through traffic in their BMW without turn signals there's a gray hair putting along. For every Tacoma clogging up the left lane there's a Prius taxi hauling ass to the next fare. I don't think it's a very informative thing to try to measure.
Measuring aggressiveness is going to be a measurement of outliers. For everyone weaving through traffic in their BMW without turn signals there's a gray hair putting along. For every Tacoma clogging up the left lane there's a Prius taxi hauling ass to the next fare. I don't think it's a very informative thing to try to measure.
Such a study exists for Finland : https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ijop.12642
You may find the full article on some Russian mirror website. I don't know whether HN allows us to name it.
You may find the full article on some Russian mirror website. I don't know whether HN allows us to name it.
There was something similar in the UK. The upshot was be careful if you are crossing the road when a BMW is nearby.
This is from last year, and is largely anecdotal, but it seems to reflect popular beliefs in the UK:
https://www.petrolprices.com/news/bmw-drivers-the-most-disli...
https://www.petrolprices.com/news/bmw-drivers-the-most-disli...
Over here Audi and Volvo drivers also know their way around the gas pedal.
Not sure why BMW gets so much negativity. The past models of BMW were really boring. The design wasn't extraordinary that it could compete with Audi or Mercedes.
But the new design of the iX and 4er models are very beautiful. I must say the new grills really appeal to me.
It seems that the new design causes a similar reaction as Mercedes SUV design of GLE and GLC (Coupe). Mercedes took a new approach and got a lot of negative comments. But ultimately they set a new trend and their SUV's were a huge success.
But the new design of the iX and 4er models are very beautiful. I must say the new grills really appeal to me.
It seems that the new design causes a similar reaction as Mercedes SUV design of GLE and GLC (Coupe). Mercedes took a new approach and got a lot of negative comments. But ultimately they set a new trend and their SUV's were a huge success.
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News to distract from the fact that the tyrannical UK government has locked everyone down for what data and science now show is clearly no emergency
Just to say, you may get downvoted to hell for your statement but fwiw I firmly believe this too now! I mean the non-science-y way this is being handled, not that this is to distract :)
Edit: edited for clarity
Edit: edited for clarity
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