I'm an addict(onetwo.bearblog.dev)
onetwo.bearblog.dev
I'm an addict
https://onetwo.bearblog.dev/addict/
601 comments
They're just cliche ideas for how to fill the time. Anyone one who tries to break an addiction suddenly finds themselves with a lot of free time they don't know how to fill.
But on that note, have multiple kids AND get a pet. You'll never have a free minute again.
But on that note, have multiple kids AND get a pet. You'll never have a free minute again.
I would strongly argue against having kids as a solution for any of life‘s problems.
Kids are an incredibly demanding venture and can exacerbate existing problems.
Speaking from experience here.
I mean from a purely evolutionary perspective, the point of life is to pass on your genes to your offspring, so having kids would be winning at this game we call life…
so life’s greatest winner is genghis khan
Do you have an alternative "point of life"?
Is it career? If so, that's pretty depressing. Happiness is a superficial emotion. If your loved one was "happy" spending his entire life playing fortnight in his parent's basement, would you be sad for him? Charity?
I don't know. Never found a meaning as compelling as having children.
Is it career? If so, that's pretty depressing. Happiness is a superficial emotion. If your loved one was "happy" spending his entire life playing fortnight in his parent's basement, would you be sad for him? Charity?
I don't know. Never found a meaning as compelling as having children.
>Happiness is a superficial emotion
A google definition of superficial is "appearing to be true or real only until examined more closely."
I don't see how the definition of a type of emotion can be "superficial". Presumably your usage of "happy" in quotes is not actually happiness if you decided to put it in quotes. If you meant it as him actually being happy then someone could decide to be sad for him but that has nothing to do with his own happiness. Instead it would just be someone arrogantly projecting their own sensibilities and worldview onto the fortnite player while thinking they know better sources of happiness (when really the causes are subjective and every person derives varying levels of joy in different ways).
Making kids a "point of life" can itself be seen as a last ditch effort to be happy. The thought that there's some purpose in life that points to procreating is arbitrarily chosen and is seemingly that way because people derive happiness from some idea of having a legacy or finding comfort in interpreting the potential continuous spread of dna as some proxy for immortality
A google definition of superficial is "appearing to be true or real only until examined more closely."
I don't see how the definition of a type of emotion can be "superficial". Presumably your usage of "happy" in quotes is not actually happiness if you decided to put it in quotes. If you meant it as him actually being happy then someone could decide to be sad for him but that has nothing to do with his own happiness. Instead it would just be someone arrogantly projecting their own sensibilities and worldview onto the fortnite player while thinking they know better sources of happiness (when really the causes are subjective and every person derives varying levels of joy in different ways).
Making kids a "point of life" can itself be seen as a last ditch effort to be happy. The thought that there's some purpose in life that points to procreating is arbitrarily chosen and is seemingly that way because people derive happiness from some idea of having a legacy or finding comfort in interpreting the potential continuous spread of dna as some proxy for immortality
Why does there have to be a point? Just go with it.
Genghis Khan had many children: https://www.grunge.com/187878/how-many-children-did-genghis-...
Reproducing is just a mechanism for adaptation. So the ultimate goal is to adapt now?
greatest score - so far
wait for the scientist who'll start printing soldier clones of himself
wait for the scientist who'll start printing soldier clones of himself
From a purely physical point of view, life's goal can be reduced to passing on information.
YMMV. Kids made my life immeasurably better. And I have some with severe handicaps.
> for any of life‘s problems
I understand it was hyperbole, but I would suggest one possible application of having and throwing everything you've got at raising children[1] to help with aimlessness/meaninglessness/purposelessness. Particularly when they're your own the common experience is your instinct/genome takes over and you'll find great imperative to do things you couldn't do for yourself. I learned about this concept from Jordan Peterson who also notes it works with pets[2]. For any bit of resentment about how the world has treated you, pouring yourself into someone else can at least give the solace that for them they will not suffer as much as you have, or at least not in the same insanity producing cyclical way as you had.
[1]: (technically can also be someone else's like foster, adopt, church, mentor, nephews/nieces) .
[2]: he talks about how people more frequently fill prescriptions for pets than for themselves.
I understand it was hyperbole, but I would suggest one possible application of having and throwing everything you've got at raising children[1] to help with aimlessness/meaninglessness/purposelessness. Particularly when they're your own the common experience is your instinct/genome takes over and you'll find great imperative to do things you couldn't do for yourself. I learned about this concept from Jordan Peterson who also notes it works with pets[2]. For any bit of resentment about how the world has treated you, pouring yourself into someone else can at least give the solace that for them they will not suffer as much as you have, or at least not in the same insanity producing cyclical way as you had.
[1]: (technically can also be someone else's like foster, adopt, church, mentor, nephews/nieces) .
[2]: he talks about how people more frequently fill prescriptions for pets than for themselves.
I know enough shitty parents to say this does not have a high rate of success in changing people for the better, but I will leave it to Jordan Peterson, he seems like a real expert type.
A lot of people nowadays lack responsibility.
Society keeps encouraging a lifestyle with less and less responsibility.
The government takes care of you (until you start bringing in profits), your employer takes care of you (with no raises). Everything seems engineered to coddle people without making them realise what they're missing. I feel most people are basically unaware cattle, happy to stay in their comfort zone and to keep producing what they tell them to.
Sexual promiscuity is cool, relationships don't last, having kids is a suicide, you're a victim.
A lot of the shitty parents have way deeper problems than this. The ones doing ok are probably glad they get to use their judice and they enjoy the freedom that comes with responsibility (without forgetting the obligations).
Society keeps encouraging a lifestyle with less and less responsibility.
The government takes care of you (until you start bringing in profits), your employer takes care of you (with no raises). Everything seems engineered to coddle people without making them realise what they're missing. I feel most people are basically unaware cattle, happy to stay in their comfort zone and to keep producing what they tell them to.
Sexual promiscuity is cool, relationships don't last, having kids is a suicide, you're a victim.
A lot of the shitty parents have way deeper problems than this. The ones doing ok are probably glad they get to use their judice and they enjoy the freedom that comes with responsibility (without forgetting the obligations).
I've heard a hypothesis in the past (cannot recall the data) that people who put themselves under financial responsibility (eg through debt, virtuous or vice) often are pressed into earning more. That is it seems the mechanism might be you get stressed about paying your bills so you pursue a life of higher income. People might become wealthier as home owners not because of the wealth the home generates but because of the consistent act of building a little wealth month by month for 25 years, and for want of a bit more disposable income they chase a promotion, raise, or more valuable skills.
I believe there is a similar function in marriages, parenting, and other relationships -- the act of working through challenges makes you a "better" person at least in the regards of perspective, negotiation, less selfishness etc.
Of course, like basically everything in every discussion, there are exceptions but lets not focus on those because it makes it difficult to talk about anything save for physical laws.
I believe there is a similar function in marriages, parenting, and other relationships -- the act of working through challenges makes you a "better" person at least in the regards of perspective, negotiation, less selfishness etc.
Of course, like basically everything in every discussion, there are exceptions but lets not focus on those because it makes it difficult to talk about anything save for physical laws.
> For any bit of resentment about how the world has treated you, pouring yourself into someone else can at least give the solace that for them they will not suffer as much as you have
Personally, I'm shocked at how just having kids has healed a lot of my held resentment. I used to look back at moments in my life that I wished had gone differently. Now I see that if you gave me a time machine and the chance to go back and change how I responded, I can't do it because I'd be erasing my kids.
I wouldn't even be able to stop the covid pandemic, selfish as that may be.
Personally, I'm shocked at how just having kids has healed a lot of my held resentment. I used to look back at moments in my life that I wished had gone differently. Now I see that if you gave me a time machine and the chance to go back and change how I responded, I can't do it because I'd be erasing my kids.
I wouldn't even be able to stop the covid pandemic, selfish as that may be.
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> But on that note, have multiple kids AND get a pet. You'll never have a free minute again.
But then you’ll flock to these addictions because you feel you need an escape.
I have four kids and a ShiTsu.
But then you’ll flock to these addictions because you feel you need an escape.
I have four kids and a ShiTsu.
Or multiple pets and no kids, got 2 labs, a cat, a fish, and a cockatiel--its never boring at my house.
I am nearly the opposite, but it has the same effect.
I can spend hours in my own head, just thinking about… everything. For me the phone rabbit hole usually starts with an idea that needs more information to live.
The outcome, however, is the same: I get very little practical work done, I am constantly behind and very frustrated.
I can spend hours in my own head, just thinking about… everything. For me the phone rabbit hole usually starts with an idea that needs more information to live.
The outcome, however, is the same: I get very little practical work done, I am constantly behind and very frustrated.
Yes I have this problem.
I am getting better at doing things, but I quickly become overwhelmed, because those thoughts never stop and instead of doing what I need to do, it's a battle plus all those thoughts I have that feel like I need to spend time thinking them through etc, rather than doing the most basic of things that I need to do.
I am getting better at doing things, but I quickly become overwhelmed, because those thoughts never stop and instead of doing what I need to do, it's a battle plus all those thoughts I have that feel like I need to spend time thinking them through etc, rather than doing the most basic of things that I need to do.
> I hold unto my right as a mammal to be inefficient and sit drooling looking at trees.
OK, I get this. Really, I do. I've spent many many hours doing "nothing" just like this, and those have generally been happy times. But ... how would that change if you had a lot more free time? Could you spend all day every day in such a state? Would it be healthy if you did?
The reason I ask is that I've had to grapple with that question since I retired. Probably will even more so when my daughter leaves for college. And as much as I enjoy doing "nothing" I find that I just can't do it all day. I have to be doing something, which brings us right back to the issue of low-effort low-reward activities (e.g. doomscrolling on the internet) vs. high-effort high-reward activities (e.g. hobbies, community involvement, travel). I force myself to do the latter first so I don't lose the ability to do hard(er) things, and there's still plenty of time left over for the low-effort stuff.
I suggest that your "war" only needs to be fought because you don't have enough total free time, and it will seem like a very different war when that changes.
OK, I get this. Really, I do. I've spent many many hours doing "nothing" just like this, and those have generally been happy times. But ... how would that change if you had a lot more free time? Could you spend all day every day in such a state? Would it be healthy if you did?
The reason I ask is that I've had to grapple with that question since I retired. Probably will even more so when my daughter leaves for college. And as much as I enjoy doing "nothing" I find that I just can't do it all day. I have to be doing something, which brings us right back to the issue of low-effort low-reward activities (e.g. doomscrolling on the internet) vs. high-effort high-reward activities (e.g. hobbies, community involvement, travel). I force myself to do the latter first so I don't lose the ability to do hard(er) things, and there's still plenty of time left over for the low-effort stuff.
I suggest that your "war" only needs to be fought because you don't have enough total free time, and it will seem like a very different war when that changes.
I agree. I recently came on sick leave due to stress and had to grasp the immense amount of sudden time on my hands.
Since i am on sickleave due to anxiety, stress and skizotypia i dont usually like being alone with my thoughts.
so what ive done with my time is this:
Wake up, fill my thermos with hot water. Leave my apartment.
Drive around on my bike looking for hidden places. It can be an empty lot behind a supermarket or an off-path place in the forrest.
Walk around and study the vegetation. Find a nice place for some instant coffee, chill.
Sit-drink coffee-stare-listen-repeat.
Decide to leave. Bike to a place where there is a lot of people i know. Leave cuz i am too anxious to talk to any of them.
Have a quick chat at the harbour with some strangers.
Go to the library and read a bit of comics or newspapers. Take the bus to another harbour.
Make minor.fixes to my small boat from the 70's.
Go to the swimming hall. chill in sauna and max up the heat. Stare.
Go home, make food for minimum money as an exercise. Eat.
Think about projects i could imagine would be fun. Imagine the details of them. Maybe write them down. Be okay with never doing them.
Watch some hbo.
Plan when i have my kids again "maybe tomorrow?" And where to take them? Usually the beach or the forrest and have fun in the woods.
Go my my bedroom without any devices and sleep.
I live in denmark
Since i am on sickleave due to anxiety, stress and skizotypia i dont usually like being alone with my thoughts.
so what ive done with my time is this:
Wake up, fill my thermos with hot water. Leave my apartment.
Drive around on my bike looking for hidden places. It can be an empty lot behind a supermarket or an off-path place in the forrest.
Walk around and study the vegetation. Find a nice place for some instant coffee, chill.
Sit-drink coffee-stare-listen-repeat.
Decide to leave. Bike to a place where there is a lot of people i know. Leave cuz i am too anxious to talk to any of them.
Have a quick chat at the harbour with some strangers.
Go to the library and read a bit of comics or newspapers. Take the bus to another harbour.
Make minor.fixes to my small boat from the 70's.
Go to the swimming hall. chill in sauna and max up the heat. Stare.
Go home, make food for minimum money as an exercise. Eat.
Think about projects i could imagine would be fun. Imagine the details of them. Maybe write them down. Be okay with never doing them.
Watch some hbo.
Plan when i have my kids again "maybe tomorrow?" And where to take them? Usually the beach or the forrest and have fun in the woods.
Go my my bedroom without any devices and sleep.
I live in denmark
How much instant coffee do you drink? And have you tried going without caffeine? Some are very sensitive to caffeine.
I like your routine though, I envy those who live in walkable areas!
I like your routine though, I envy those who live in walkable areas!
I have a severe coffee problem i admit. Biggest addiction of mine and definitly needs taking care of. I consider moving to rooibos tea as i like the flavor more than coffee
>i suggest that your "war" only needs to be fought because you don't have enough total free time, and it will seem like a very different war when that changes.
My war is personal, ive been over productive for 7 years like this: Work 50+ hours as it engineer, taking on too much responsibility. Doing opensource projects in spare time. Doing srt projects like stage shows and stuff on weekends. Being a dad to 3. Being main supplyer of moneys in the home. Having some heavy duty mental ilness diagnoses on the top. All the while i never felt i was worth anything. Not a dime.
Now i aim for having low amount of recurring bills. Chill with my kids (i now dont live with anymore since the above details produced my divorce) Be outside, all weather, all the time. Be helpful. And accept a new way of not being productive. And therefore also not consuming a lot.
My war is personal, ive been over productive for 7 years like this: Work 50+ hours as it engineer, taking on too much responsibility. Doing opensource projects in spare time. Doing srt projects like stage shows and stuff on weekends. Being a dad to 3. Being main supplyer of moneys in the home. Having some heavy duty mental ilness diagnoses on the top. All the while i never felt i was worth anything. Not a dime.
Now i aim for having low amount of recurring bills. Chill with my kids (i now dont live with anymore since the above details produced my divorce) Be outside, all weather, all the time. Be helpful. And accept a new way of not being productive. And therefore also not consuming a lot.
This somehow points towards an interesting question. Is it healthy or "good" to procrastinate? Since this is a problem almost everyone has during their life, it must serve some evolutionary purpose.
What if it was disadvantageous to outwork everyone else during anthropogenesis even if it is rational in our modern world where the upside is practically unlimited and the downside is nearly always limited? A natural environment is almost exactly the opposite - Does that mean we are fighting our "natural" behavior every day? This question isn't meaning to be fatalistic, exactly what OP and the video by Luke Smith he linked criticize. But understanding the biological reason behind procrastination could lead us to some deeper understanding on how to win this uphill battle.
What if it was disadvantageous to outwork everyone else during anthropogenesis even if it is rational in our modern world where the upside is practically unlimited and the downside is nearly always limited? A natural environment is almost exactly the opposite - Does that mean we are fighting our "natural" behavior every day? This question isn't meaning to be fatalistic, exactly what OP and the video by Luke Smith he linked criticize. But understanding the biological reason behind procrastination could lead us to some deeper understanding on how to win this uphill battle.
> I hold unto my right as a mammal to be inefficient and sit drooling looking at trees.
yes, I even like framing this as an environmental conservation activity.
I'm doing nothing at all (only consuming oxygen, no content, no nothing) as a conscious action to save the environment.
yes, I even like framing this as an environmental conservation activity.
I'm doing nothing at all (only consuming oxygen, no content, no nothing) as a conscious action to save the environment.
I don’t want to guilt anyone here, but just sitting there and consuming oxygen and therefore calories is a significant environmental impact. Feeding humans, especially fresh fruits and vegetables or meat, has a pretty large environmental impact. (Staples like grains and such don’t because they’re storable and calorie-dense on a per-acre metric.)
And humans can have a positive impact on the environment. We can plant trees, do civil engineering to shore up damaged ecosystems, care for animals, develop cleaner ways to live and make food, etc. humans do not have to be a net negative for the environment.
Which isn’t to say that resting and daydreaming are bad or net negative. I think they’re good! Even if just good for the soul, that helps fight the encroaching nihilism of modern life and think more in a positive-sum manner.
And humans can have a positive impact on the environment. We can plant trees, do civil engineering to shore up damaged ecosystems, care for animals, develop cleaner ways to live and make food, etc. humans do not have to be a net negative for the environment.
Which isn’t to say that resting and daydreaming are bad or net negative. I think they’re good! Even if just good for the soul, that helps fight the encroaching nihilism of modern life and think more in a positive-sum manner.
> Staples like grains and such don’t because they’re storable and calorie-dense on a per-acre metric.
So you’re saying that I should have some potato chips on hand for when I’m being lazy? You seem wise.
So you’re saying that I should have some potato chips on hand for when I’m being lazy? You seem wise.
At which point does an animal goes from being part of the environment to have its diet analysed for "environmental impact"?
reminds me of church of euthanasia's "save the planet kill yourself" from the older internet.
the point is that it's the least we can consume, in contrast with a more capitalist friendly "go sit at a cafe to buy a drink" or even a scholarly-ambitious "read a book, or newspaper or learn something, don't just sit there". both of which are much worse.
the point is that it's the least we can consume, in contrast with a more capitalist friendly "go sit at a cafe to buy a drink" or even a scholarly-ambitious "read a book, or newspaper or learn something, don't just sit there". both of which are much worse.
But that just wastes the big climate impact that was invested to grow you to adulthood. Now is the time to reinvest in the Earth. Humans can definitely have a net-negative carbon footprint if they work at it.
That's a very human centric way of framing the issue.
There is no environment that need saving. Carbon emissions are merely changing the environment in a way that may not be convenient for a lot of humans.
You're just saving the status quo of human society, not "reinvesting in the Earth".
If by environment you mean species of animals you should worry more about plastic and trash than carbon emissions.
There is no environment that need saving. Carbon emissions are merely changing the environment in a way that may not be convenient for a lot of humans.
You're just saving the status quo of human society, not "reinvesting in the Earth".
If by environment you mean species of animals you should worry more about plastic and trash than carbon emissions.
But, like, I’m a human? Morals are a human thing (or a mammalian thing maybe), heck written WORDS are definitely a human centric thing. How could I not be human centric?
I think his point is that instead of minimizing consumption you should aim to actually produce something and not just drain "minimal" resources sitting around day dreaming.
Once you realize that idle brain time is when actual creative problem solving occurs without you conscious of it then its easier to let go. I definitely feel fine just staring out of a train window rather than my phone knowing this.
The way I view this is that there's no such thing as idle brain time. When you take away focused conscious thinking, the brain is built to do background problem-solving on its own. (This also makes sense if the purpose of dreaming while asleep is garbage-collection of unresolved thoughts and anxieties.)
> I hold unto my right as a mammal to be inefficient and sit drooling looking at trees
here, here!
here, here!
Quick question: we have a similar (the same?) exclamation in German, it's "hört, hört!" which would be translated to "hear, hear!", not "here, here!". Is it actually "here, here!" in English or it possible you've just mistaken the words after having only heard them?
The expression comes from England's Parliament. The full version is, "Hear, Hear the excellent speaker!"
The old saying in English is "hear, hear", in reference to old parliament procedures.
I use "here, here" on text forums because you can't hear anything, but "right here" is a post worth reading!
I use "here, here" on text forums because you can't hear anything, but "right here" is a post worth reading!
[deleted]
It's "hear hear"
I’ve found that having a very finite procrastination activity (like, say, doing ten push-ups) can help. The trick is finding something that can’t be extended indefinitely.
I see this a lot and I’m curious - why can’t you stand being with yourself?
You touch on it a little when you say you begin to panic when you’re idle - what is the source of that panic? Is it FOMO? Is it un-processed traumatic memories? Is it unhinged neuroticism and overthinking? Is it something else? What is the source of that panic?
You touch on it a little when you say you begin to panic when you’re idle - what is the source of that panic? Is it FOMO? Is it un-processed traumatic memories? Is it unhinged neuroticism and overthinking? Is it something else? What is the source of that panic?
I dont like my company because:
I endlessly think about solutions to problems like personal budget, relationship to my kids mom, feeling alone and having no immediate people to talk to. That my mental illness is deteriorating. That my kids will inherit my ilness. Etc etc etc.
And then i also spend too much time trying to figure out how other people function since i sincerely dont have an idea of what "normal behavior of lifestyle" looks like"
Both of these are traits of my skizotypical diagnosis being 'lack of identity' 'lack of understanding of how other people engage in life' 'emotional blindness' etc
Both of these are traits of my skizotypical diagnosis being 'lack of identity' 'lack of understanding of how other people engage in life' 'emotional blindness' etc
You might like the book "4000 Weeks: Time Management for Mortals." It's about this precise idea of valuing idleness (there's no quick way to change that mindset, it's a process).
Thank You for this recommendation, a refreshing book in the age of GTD, 4-hour workweek and numerous "lifehacks".
At least if you know you have addictive tendencies you will get a benefit! :D It's a good first step to replacing a destructive/ineffective behavior with something a little better. I think in our software somewhere we all have a kind of addictive complex that for some, modern tech seems to be good at pushing. If you can wield it for good, I think that's a good change.
I agree with you that the obsession with S-tier clearing life is very bad for people. I have many young friends who obsess over optimizing every move they make at cost to their sanity and time. Specialization is for insects.
I agree with you that the obsession with S-tier clearing life is very bad for people. I have many young friends who obsess over optimizing every move they make at cost to their sanity and time. Specialization is for insects.
I agree with you on not liking the idea of changing your time sinks. I ran into a similar problem as your's with Reddit, and realized it was because I did not really like my self.
Somewhere along the way I realized I had not day dreamed or used my imagination for a long time because it was so easy to "read the nearest material I can lay my hands on".
To add to your advice I would suggest to try to find out who you are without outside material and to get comfortable with this self.
Somewhere along the way I realized I had not day dreamed or used my imagination for a long time because it was so easy to "read the nearest material I can lay my hands on".
To add to your advice I would suggest to try to find out who you are without outside material and to get comfortable with this self.
But what if being in the moment at one with yourself and your environment is an addiction for you as well? I spent years in the trap he describes. Binging passive eacapes like YouTube Netflix, an even pulp fiction novels. Video games were a step up, at least they involved engagement. I also loved solo hiking, or even staring at a blank wall thinking, or not thinking. Anything to avoid cleaning the dishes, folding clothes, filling out forms, making phone calls, or any task I couldn't manage to hyperfocus on. I only escaped by getting married and having a kid. Love for others helped where love to self did not. After all, I was happy in that place, and probably still would be. But while a family is work, its also a challenge, and rising to meet it gives a real sense of accomplishment. Now that I am diagnosed as ADHD and have some mmedicine and training to deal with it, I find that using them to push through other tasks I don't like, also brings that sense of accomplishment and those unexpected rewards make it easier the next time. ADHD brains don't accept deferred rewards as positive reinforcement for learning purposes, so you either need continuous rewards, or medicine/tricks to get through. Also we respond better to negative reinforcement, so if it doesn't harm your emotional state, denying yourself things as a punishment can work, also focussing on natural consequences of failing to complete a task works sometimes, even in advance.
> I see the root cause (for me atleast (used to read HN and blogs for 4 hours everyday)) is that i cant stand being with myself.
> During the last two months ive been trying to not panic when i'm idle. And not take out my phone or read the nearest material i can lay my hands on.
> (...)
> My advice on "doing something" when you have day without plans is the following: Bike in the forrest, coffee from thermos near the ocean, read newspapers at the library, talk to people at trainstations (the frequent hangouts are always open for conversations)
Or maybe meditate? It may be hard (specially when beginning) but it's wonderful for learning to comfortable with yourself
> During the last two months ive been trying to not panic when i'm idle. And not take out my phone or read the nearest material i can lay my hands on.
> (...)
> My advice on "doing something" when you have day without plans is the following: Bike in the forrest, coffee from thermos near the ocean, read newspapers at the library, talk to people at trainstations (the frequent hangouts are always open for conversations)
Or maybe meditate? It may be hard (specially when beginning) but it's wonderful for learning to comfortable with yourself
Sounds like OP isn't necessarily an addict: they have ADHD.
Half the article was them complaining about poor working memory, and the rest about getting stimulation/dopamine from unhealthy sources.
Everyone has "a little ADHD". We all occasionally, forget things, hyperfocus on things we are excited about, etc. ADHD is the disorder of having those struggles so often it's debilitating. It stems from having an underdeveloped frontal lobe that doesn't feel dopamine as well as neurotypical brains do, meaning an ADHD brain needs more stimulus to feel healthy.
Because of the deficit in stimulus, people with untreated ADHD are statistically much more likely to have a substance abuse disorder (SAD); but in many cases, treating their ADHD (with medication and cognitive behavioral therapy) has the side effect of treating their SAD.
Addiction, in the public consciousness/vernacular, is more abstract than SAD: it can mean anything from chemical dependence to unwanted habits. I suspect most people tend to make a false equivalence between the former and the latter. I see all the time people struggling to change a simple habit and immediately labeling themselves "addicts". I think that's a unhelpful characterization.
I think the point people tend to miss is that in order to change a habit, you don't just "stop doing it": you must replace it with an alternative dopamine source. This is especially tricky with untreated ADHD.
Half the article was them complaining about poor working memory, and the rest about getting stimulation/dopamine from unhealthy sources.
Everyone has "a little ADHD". We all occasionally, forget things, hyperfocus on things we are excited about, etc. ADHD is the disorder of having those struggles so often it's debilitating. It stems from having an underdeveloped frontal lobe that doesn't feel dopamine as well as neurotypical brains do, meaning an ADHD brain needs more stimulus to feel healthy.
Because of the deficit in stimulus, people with untreated ADHD are statistically much more likely to have a substance abuse disorder (SAD); but in many cases, treating their ADHD (with medication and cognitive behavioral therapy) has the side effect of treating their SAD.
Addiction, in the public consciousness/vernacular, is more abstract than SAD: it can mean anything from chemical dependence to unwanted habits. I suspect most people tend to make a false equivalence between the former and the latter. I see all the time people struggling to change a simple habit and immediately labeling themselves "addicts". I think that's a unhelpful characterization.
I think the point people tend to miss is that in order to change a habit, you don't just "stop doing it": you must replace it with an alternative dopamine source. This is especially tricky with untreated ADHD.
As someone actually diagnosed with and medicated for ADHD, I'm stunned by the clarity and relatability of this description of it, right down to the SAD that has afflicted me for over a decade. None of my doctors has ever put it so clearly, so obviously, in a way that connects to my actual experience. All that is to say, I'm bringing this to my next therapy session, wish me luck.
Good luck! I'm glad I could help.
> I think that's a unhelpful characterization.
I agree, and I think it is important to talk about the sensation, not just the observation or impact on others (which are easy to compare poorly).
To me it isn't so much the _what_, but the _why_. The brain is hunting for stimulation due to a baseline deficit below that required to operate normally. I can tell you from experience that "hunt" can range from classic hyperfocus/lack of focus to chronic boredom, hypersexuality, drug abuse and so on.
What provides the stimulation to reach baseline one day, may not work the next day, or even from hour-to-hour or minute to minute. That's the core issue, however it manifests. If just one thing consistently hit the spot, it'd be akin to an addiction (where in addiction your brain down regulates, so you need to keep supplying it).
As it stands, it is more like being addicted to both everything and nothing, in a never ending frenzy of disatisfaction, frustration and boredom. Your brain, always downregulated, always chasing a moving fix.
Habit doesn't come into it one tiny bit.
I agree, and I think it is important to talk about the sensation, not just the observation or impact on others (which are easy to compare poorly).
To me it isn't so much the _what_, but the _why_. The brain is hunting for stimulation due to a baseline deficit below that required to operate normally. I can tell you from experience that "hunt" can range from classic hyperfocus/lack of focus to chronic boredom, hypersexuality, drug abuse and so on.
What provides the stimulation to reach baseline one day, may not work the next day, or even from hour-to-hour or minute to minute. That's the core issue, however it manifests. If just one thing consistently hit the spot, it'd be akin to an addiction (where in addiction your brain down regulates, so you need to keep supplying it).
As it stands, it is more like being addicted to both everything and nothing, in a never ending frenzy of disatisfaction, frustration and boredom. Your brain, always downregulated, always chasing a moving fix.
Habit doesn't come into it one tiny bit.
I agree with this completely. I sounded just like the OP. I struggled with it for decades. Then recently I was diagnosed and started taking medication. Some of the problems basically stopped instantly.
I implore anyone reading this and noticing it in themselves to go to a professional and find out if you have ADHD or not. I am by no means "cured" or completely functional but at least now I have a fighting chance.
I implore anyone reading this and noticing it in themselves to go to a professional and find out if you have ADHD or not. I am by no means "cured" or completely functional but at least now I have a fighting chance.
Medication came with unacceptable side-effects for me. Real bummer.
There may be different medications that can help.
I was initially given Dexedrine (dextroamphetamine) and it was so good and I wrote the most beautiful code and my focus was pure and I needed more and more and I lined the pills up at night and did I mention beautiful code, on on sentences and becoming insufferable?
Anyway, I switched to a different stimulant (vyvanse) which had a more measured effect and did not lead to that kind of addictive over the top behavior.
Apropos of the original post - I find that during a procrastination spell, I’m still “working” in the back of my mind even though it might look like I’m doing legos at work. At some point my brain hits what I think of as an “activation level” and I suddenly “flip” my attention and focus to the job at hand. It feels like what happens when you’re kindling a fire, and you get a little bit of flame in some dry stuff, and then you “pop” that flame (attention) into the larger pile of fuel.
I was initially given Dexedrine (dextroamphetamine) and it was so good and I wrote the most beautiful code and my focus was pure and I needed more and more and I lined the pills up at night and did I mention beautiful code, on on sentences and becoming insufferable?
Anyway, I switched to a different stimulant (vyvanse) which had a more measured effect and did not lead to that kind of addictive over the top behavior.
Apropos of the original post - I find that during a procrastination spell, I’m still “working” in the back of my mind even though it might look like I’m doing legos at work. At some point my brain hits what I think of as an “activation level” and I suddenly “flip” my attention and focus to the job at hand. It feels like what happens when you’re kindling a fire, and you get a little bit of flame in some dry stuff, and then you “pop” that flame (attention) into the larger pile of fuel.
> At some point my brain hits what I think of as an “activation level” and I suddenly “flip” my attention and focus to the job at hand. It feels like what happens when you’re kindling a fire, and you get a little bit of flame in some dry stuff, and then you “pop” that flame (attention) into the larger pile of fuel.
What a wonderful way to describe such a feeling. I have struggled, and still struggle, with the same issue. I have no idea of get that switch to flip on faster, but I hate wasting so much of my day just waiting.
What a wonderful way to describe such a feeling. I have struggled, and still struggle, with the same issue. I have no idea of get that switch to flip on faster, but I hate wasting so much of my day just waiting.
[deleted]
> Medication came with unacceptable side-effects for me. Real bummer.
I was tested at very young age, as most millennials were in the US, and was told I did not have it, luckily; but looking back on the people who were raised in that era and how they handed out SSRIs like candy I'm glad I dodged that bullet because the adverse affects of those drugs sound way worse than coping with ADHD--but it also explains why mental hygiene/health issues in the US are as severe as they are.
It's sad that people have ADHD, I personally can enter 'flow state' and block out all things for hours, even days or weeks if I really try; but it's to the detriment of everything else and so horrible for my mental and physical health.
I lived that way for almost a decade with only small pauses in between, power napping is all I slept and a good day was 3-5 hours, with work schedules that were optimized for productivity over everything and my life seriously was in shambles: I was a boot-strapping founder with a stressful day job(s) and side hustles and worked 7 days/week with 90+ hour totals. I tried my best to maintain a very contentious relationship and failed miserably at it.
I think what needs to be addressed is that extremes are all bad, and OP's situation seems like it would be manageable were it not for self-satisfying rationalization to waste his time. It's like those self-sabotaging people who get off on the rush from the failure more than succeeding, this scene in Two for The Money explains it rather well [0].
0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdE-BZoB9SA
I was tested at very young age, as most millennials were in the US, and was told I did not have it, luckily; but looking back on the people who were raised in that era and how they handed out SSRIs like candy I'm glad I dodged that bullet because the adverse affects of those drugs sound way worse than coping with ADHD--but it also explains why mental hygiene/health issues in the US are as severe as they are.
It's sad that people have ADHD, I personally can enter 'flow state' and block out all things for hours, even days or weeks if I really try; but it's to the detriment of everything else and so horrible for my mental and physical health.
I lived that way for almost a decade with only small pauses in between, power napping is all I slept and a good day was 3-5 hours, with work schedules that were optimized for productivity over everything and my life seriously was in shambles: I was a boot-strapping founder with a stressful day job(s) and side hustles and worked 7 days/week with 90+ hour totals. I tried my best to maintain a very contentious relationship and failed miserably at it.
I think what needs to be addressed is that extremes are all bad, and OP's situation seems like it would be manageable were it not for self-satisfying rationalization to waste his time. It's like those self-sabotaging people who get off on the rush from the failure more than succeeding, this scene in Two for The Money explains it rather well [0].
0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdE-BZoB9SA
The stigma of medications is more harmful in my mind, I feel this deeply when I read your experience of life.
The first time I took my meds, my mind was blown. It was the first time in my long life I experienced peace and quiet. Now I am able to track my work, break large tasks into smaller ones, and quiet my brain. I’m on a dose + brand name with no side-effects etc.
The issue, and this isn’t true for everyone but I believe it is true for a lot, is that some doctors start people on what they think they should be at. Instead of starting at 5mg, they will do some BS calculation of gender and weight and start someone on 60mg. Yeah that is going to fucking suck.
The first time I took my meds, my mind was blown. It was the first time in my long life I experienced peace and quiet. Now I am able to track my work, break large tasks into smaller ones, and quiet my brain. I’m on a dose + brand name with no side-effects etc.
The issue, and this isn’t true for everyone but I believe it is true for a lot, is that some doctors start people on what they think they should be at. Instead of starting at 5mg, they will do some BS calculation of gender and weight and start someone on 60mg. Yeah that is going to fucking suck.
> The stigma of medications is more harmful in my mind, I feel this deeply when I read your experience of life.
Mine was a life of extremes, put simply I stopped caring about myself during that time and I poured myself into my work as I wanted to have something to show for what I felt was more than likely going to be a short Life.
I didn't think I was going to get rich doing any of that, in fact I lost money for most of it's existence and I never paid myself in order to pay everyone else and keep the lights on until we accomplished our mission statement, the only thing that saved me in the end was the skill set I developed made me marketable in fintech and I got head hunted to go work for a Megaorp.
I spent my Life doing what I wanted and lived a perilous and risky life and got addicted to the adrenaline rush and still deal with bad PTSD to this day. I take your words to heart, and I'm glad it worked, but sadly a family member who had a schizophrenic break down really early in life (teens) just passed from a heart attack this week; her health really went down hill after having been put on SSRI meds after that. But she also had substance abuse problems with alcohol, that run on both sides of her family, that exacerbated an already bad situation.
I'm devastated, I'm glad it worked for you, but honestly... I'm not sure it's as cut and dry as you make it out to be.
Back then I was trying to cope with my situation as best as I could, without medical insurance for most of that time, but I'm also the kind of person that goes to Ukraine during this situation and goes to help feed and process Ukrainians/Russians/Belarusians at the Mexican border in order to feel anything other than pain and sorrow if I have access to resources to do so. I'm not exactly seeking a medical escape to what I deal with, so much as trying to play a part in trying to accelerate the progress of the Human Condition in it's current form as I fear extinction is a real possibility.
In short, I was trying to fix my Weltschmerz with seemingly noble but self-destructive behaviours because I didn't want to give in to the often depressing and bleak realities of the World. I didn't, nor do I now, want to feel any number than I already was back then. Given your handle, I imagine you understand what that show was trying to communicate the most was about addressing mental health issues more than it was an edgy hacker show with cool realistic cut scenes.
I've since worked on it after the aforementioned situations and a friend's abrupt suicide last year: it forced me to re-evaluate my value system, and gain some perspective on my limitations.
Mine was a life of extremes, put simply I stopped caring about myself during that time and I poured myself into my work as I wanted to have something to show for what I felt was more than likely going to be a short Life.
I didn't think I was going to get rich doing any of that, in fact I lost money for most of it's existence and I never paid myself in order to pay everyone else and keep the lights on until we accomplished our mission statement, the only thing that saved me in the end was the skill set I developed made me marketable in fintech and I got head hunted to go work for a Megaorp.
I spent my Life doing what I wanted and lived a perilous and risky life and got addicted to the adrenaline rush and still deal with bad PTSD to this day. I take your words to heart, and I'm glad it worked, but sadly a family member who had a schizophrenic break down really early in life (teens) just passed from a heart attack this week; her health really went down hill after having been put on SSRI meds after that. But she also had substance abuse problems with alcohol, that run on both sides of her family, that exacerbated an already bad situation.
I'm devastated, I'm glad it worked for you, but honestly... I'm not sure it's as cut and dry as you make it out to be.
Back then I was trying to cope with my situation as best as I could, without medical insurance for most of that time, but I'm also the kind of person that goes to Ukraine during this situation and goes to help feed and process Ukrainians/Russians/Belarusians at the Mexican border in order to feel anything other than pain and sorrow if I have access to resources to do so. I'm not exactly seeking a medical escape to what I deal with, so much as trying to play a part in trying to accelerate the progress of the Human Condition in it's current form as I fear extinction is a real possibility.
In short, I was trying to fix my Weltschmerz with seemingly noble but self-destructive behaviours because I didn't want to give in to the often depressing and bleak realities of the World. I didn't, nor do I now, want to feel any number than I already was back then. Given your handle, I imagine you understand what that show was trying to communicate the most was about addressing mental health issues more than it was an edgy hacker show with cool realistic cut scenes.
I've since worked on it after the aforementioned situations and a friend's abrupt suicide last year: it forced me to re-evaluate my value system, and gain some perspective on my limitations.
I will not assume what you took or what doctor prescribed it but will provide you with the advice I received from a psychiatrist who specializes in ADHD.
If the medication doesn’t work or has side-effects, try a new one. Find a doctor (or more ideally a psychiatrist) who starts you on the lowest dose (if a stimulant) and slowly ramps you up.
The right dose is when, after taking the medication for some time like 2-4 weeks, you don’t feel much but at the end of the day you can reflect and realize you did way more than usual.
Medication is a small part of ADHD treatment. People have shown improvement with healthy coping mechanisms, strategies, exercise, healthy diet, etc. I’ve heard even an official diagnosis can relieve it a bit.
Of course ADHD is a blanket term and everyone’s is different. But it is possible that you would have a better experience with meds with a better doctor. I’m on meds and all my side effects have gone away due to my body adjusting, due to me buying brand name medications, and in my switch to Adderall XR. A better doctor can help you with all of this.
If the medication doesn’t work or has side-effects, try a new one. Find a doctor (or more ideally a psychiatrist) who starts you on the lowest dose (if a stimulant) and slowly ramps you up.
The right dose is when, after taking the medication for some time like 2-4 weeks, you don’t feel much but at the end of the day you can reflect and realize you did way more than usual.
Medication is a small part of ADHD treatment. People have shown improvement with healthy coping mechanisms, strategies, exercise, healthy diet, etc. I’ve heard even an official diagnosis can relieve it a bit.
Of course ADHD is a blanket term and everyone’s is different. But it is possible that you would have a better experience with meds with a better doctor. I’m on meds and all my side effects have gone away due to my body adjusting, due to me buying brand name medications, and in my switch to Adderall XR. A better doctor can help you with all of this.
Bupropion (Wellbutrin, Zyban) is not a stimulant but can help with ADHD. May be worth checking in cases where stimulants aren't an option. It's however not an ADHD wonder drug and Wikipedia article[1] states that:
> bupropion may be effective for ADHD but (...) this conclusion has to be interpreted with caution, because clinical trials were of low quality due to small sizes and risk of bias
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bupropion#Attention_deficit_hy...
> bupropion may be effective for ADHD but (...) this conclusion has to be interpreted with caution, because clinical trials were of low quality due to small sizes and risk of bias
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bupropion#Attention_deficit_hy...
Anecdotally, Wellbutrin XR 150mg did help me with some problems, but not the ones described in OP.
There's a couple week period of euphoria where I didn't have those issues at all, but I've come back down to baseline.
There's a couple week period of euphoria where I didn't have those issues at all, but I've come back down to baseline.
[deleted]
Can you please share? What was wrong?
Glad it works for you but I don't think taking "party drugs" on a daily basis is a good long-term idea
That's an unfair and incredibly dangerous description of ADHD medications.
First off there are multiple types of ADHD drugs. I presume you are referring to stimulant drugs which are the most commonly prescribed for ADHD, but there are many non-stimulant drugs available for ADHD particular in the USA.
Second stimulants are only party drugs if you abuse them. At prescribed doses they're very safe long term, so long as you've no heart issues. You often get a mild euphoria when you first start or increase a dose but it stops after a few days of use. The same applies to a lot of medications, they can get you high when abused but that's no reason not to use them at the prescribed doses.
Third there's plenty of evidence to suggest that the end effect of stimulants is different for many with ADHD and that they're less likely to abuse them due to this. The drugs do the same thing to everyone but due to lower levels of dopamine and/or higher sensitivity to dopamine many people with ADHD don't get high the same way if they abuse their meds.
Fourth there are lots of long last slow release meds which are difficult to abuse. Vyvanse in particular is almost impossible to abuse as it metabolizes into amphetamines after you take it and there's no way to speed up the reaction enough to abuse it.
Fifth to get diagnosed with ADHD your symptoms have to be having a severe negative effect on you life in multiple areas. I can't find the stats atm but life expectancy for undiagnosed and untreated ADHD sufferers is significantly lower than average mostly due to risky behaviour, mental health and bad consumption habits (food and self medicating with other far more dangerous substances). So the risk of any stimulant medication (which is extremely low for most people) has to be weighed against the risks of being untreated.
That's not to say there aren't any potential issues with ADHD meds. Everyone reacts differently so you should be careful and only take them under the supervision of a trained Psychologist. They're also not sufficient on their own. But they're well studied, extremely safe when used correctly and statistically the most effective individual treatment by far for a very serious condition. So please don't post misleading things like this and put people off of seeking potentially life changing treatment.
First off there are multiple types of ADHD drugs. I presume you are referring to stimulant drugs which are the most commonly prescribed for ADHD, but there are many non-stimulant drugs available for ADHD particular in the USA.
Second stimulants are only party drugs if you abuse them. At prescribed doses they're very safe long term, so long as you've no heart issues. You often get a mild euphoria when you first start or increase a dose but it stops after a few days of use. The same applies to a lot of medications, they can get you high when abused but that's no reason not to use them at the prescribed doses.
Third there's plenty of evidence to suggest that the end effect of stimulants is different for many with ADHD and that they're less likely to abuse them due to this. The drugs do the same thing to everyone but due to lower levels of dopamine and/or higher sensitivity to dopamine many people with ADHD don't get high the same way if they abuse their meds.
Fourth there are lots of long last slow release meds which are difficult to abuse. Vyvanse in particular is almost impossible to abuse as it metabolizes into amphetamines after you take it and there's no way to speed up the reaction enough to abuse it.
Fifth to get diagnosed with ADHD your symptoms have to be having a severe negative effect on you life in multiple areas. I can't find the stats atm but life expectancy for undiagnosed and untreated ADHD sufferers is significantly lower than average mostly due to risky behaviour, mental health and bad consumption habits (food and self medicating with other far more dangerous substances). So the risk of any stimulant medication (which is extremely low for most people) has to be weighed against the risks of being untreated.
That's not to say there aren't any potential issues with ADHD meds. Everyone reacts differently so you should be careful and only take them under the supervision of a trained Psychologist. They're also not sufficient on their own. But they're well studied, extremely safe when used correctly and statistically the most effective individual treatment by far for a very serious condition. So please don't post misleading things like this and put people off of seeking potentially life changing treatment.
> You often get a mild euphoria when you first start or increase a dose but it stops after a few days of use.
Anecdotally, green tea or just L-theanine extracted from it helps. Even mild euphoria is unwelcome as it can reposition dopamine (and possibly serotonin) baseline and lower effects from following doses.
> plenty of evidence to suggest that the end effect of stimulants is different for many with ADHD and that they're less likely to abuse them due to this.
Unmedicated ADHD person is even more likely to seek dopamine hits and get addicted. We are commenting a post titled "I'm an addict" which seems to be written by someone undiagnosed (I'm not a specialist).
Anecdotally, green tea or just L-theanine extracted from it helps. Even mild euphoria is unwelcome as it can reposition dopamine (and possibly serotonin) baseline and lower effects from following doses.
> plenty of evidence to suggest that the end effect of stimulants is different for many with ADHD and that they're less likely to abuse them due to this.
Unmedicated ADHD person is even more likely to seek dopamine hits and get addicted. We are commenting a post titled "I'm an addict" which seems to be written by someone undiagnosed (I'm not a specialist).
1) therapeutic dosage is much less than recreational dosage
2) Drugs work differently on ADHD brains than on “normal” brains.
2) Drugs work differently on ADHD brains than on “normal” brains.
No amount of dogpiling will convince me taking amphetamines on a daily basis is good for you, ADHD or not.
The mind is not the only thing being affected here. This shit is horrible for the body. Aren't there herbs that can help? Do doctors even care?
The mind is not the only thing being affected here. This shit is horrible for the body. Aren't there herbs that can help? Do doctors even care?
Well, good thing you don’t need to be convinced for other people to get help. Sheesh.
My partners life was literally changed by taking medication. Do you think that’s a bad thing?
I strongly doubt that ‘herbs’ are more effective than decades of scientific research. I presume that you’re hearing amphetamines and thinking of the extremes; as the parent said, the medical doses are far lower than that of recreational users.
Drinking coffee is a stimulant, and yet in moderation it’s not harmful to the used. Do you feel similarly about any sort of caffenation?
My partners life was literally changed by taking medication. Do you think that’s a bad thing?
I strongly doubt that ‘herbs’ are more effective than decades of scientific research. I presume that you’re hearing amphetamines and thinking of the extremes; as the parent said, the medical doses are far lower than that of recreational users.
Drinking coffee is a stimulant, and yet in moderation it’s not harmful to the used. Do you feel similarly about any sort of caffenation?
Good thing I am not trying to stop anyone, nor arguing against there being some benefits to seeking treatment.
I've noticed this is mainly a US thing. If you all think it's great, there must be something to it. Like a big marketing campaign going back years. Nope, too wild! It's more probable I need a lecture on the benefits of being hooked on amphetamines in the name of mental health.
How long do you think such treatment can last? Have you checked? Do it for your partner. Do you honestly think using this stuff for decades does not come with major drawbacks?
I've noticed this is mainly a US thing. If you all think it's great, there must be something to it. Like a big marketing campaign going back years. Nope, too wild! It's more probable I need a lecture on the benefits of being hooked on amphetamines in the name of mental health.
How long do you think such treatment can last? Have you checked? Do it for your partner. Do you honestly think using this stuff for decades does not come with major drawbacks?
The issue is you keep using terminology like “being hooked on amphetamines” to degrade treatment like it’s crystal meth. You should understand that doesn’t sit well with people who have had their lives dramatically improved by treatment.
Again, does coffee sit in that same boat?
Again, does coffee sit in that same boat?
Not op but for me - and I think for many others - it's really a worthwhile tradeoff.
To say life with mental illness/disorders comes with its own major drawbacks is really an understatement. Amphetamines may well have harmful effects, but untreated mental illness/disorders can cause an incredible amount of damage, not just to the person affected but to those around them.
Many people, such as myself, seek treatment with medication after they've exhausted all other known options. There's only so long you can keep running on empty. I'm just happy to have something that works.
To say life with mental illness/disorders comes with its own major drawbacks is really an understatement. Amphetamines may well have harmful effects, but untreated mental illness/disorders can cause an incredible amount of damage, not just to the person affected but to those around them.
Many people, such as myself, seek treatment with medication after they've exhausted all other known options. There's only so long you can keep running on empty. I'm just happy to have something that works.
"How long do you think such treatment can last? Have you checked? Do it for your partner. Do you honestly think using this stuff for decades does not come with major drawbacks?"
I know people who have been on ADHD medication for 30 years. I'm assuming the people I know aren't the only ones. So do you have any evidence that these treatments can't last, or are you just making things up?
Edit: Also one of them has a doctorate and it would have been impossible for him to obtain it without medication.
I know people who have been on ADHD medication for 30 years. I'm assuming the people I know aren't the only ones. So do you have any evidence that these treatments can't last, or are you just making things up?
Edit: Also one of them has a doctorate and it would have been impossible for him to obtain it without medication.
Please, kindly, keep your opinions which are not based on statistics or research, to yourself.
Looking at your past posts it appears you aren't a discriminatory bag of shit, but you could have fooled me with this comment.
You don't know people's situation and you don't know how medicines affect them.
Looking at your past posts it appears you aren't a discriminatory bag of shit, but you could have fooled me with this comment.
You don't know people's situation and you don't know how medicines affect them.
Alternative title: prescription pharmaceuticals should be taken as per the advice of a doctor, in the way they benefit patients - and people should stop recreationally taking them when it hurts it's reputation.
You alluded to this, but I think it’s worth saying explicitly:
People with ADHD are 2.7 times more likely to deal with depression than people without.
This is very subjective and I can’t put a finger on what it is exactly but something in this post just feels like depression.
People with ADHD are 2.7 times more likely to deal with depression than people without.
This is very subjective and I can’t put a finger on what it is exactly but something in this post just feels like depression.
I think you're catching the overall sentiment, which is "why does it matter?". I actually wonder whether the causal direction works the other way sometimes with anxiety/depression. The combination of the two makes it hard to evaluate or visualize long term positive outcomes of current actions, so you're more likely to gravitate towards things that are immediately rewarding.
My unrelated take is that remote work is going to make this problem way worse.
My unrelated take is that remote work is going to make this problem way worse.
I picked up on it too. I think theres a subtle tone of resignation or hopelessness.
Another alternative explanation, that I find that extends to many alleged addictions is that he is avoiding doing what he needs to do because anxiety.
A recent related post:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31408431
A recent related post:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31408431
I feel seen.
My mechanism for remaining focused and getting through work has been to consume harder illicit substances, mostly cocaine. It's effective but definitely not sustainable long time and I'm not too sure where from here.
My mechanism for remaining focused and getting through work has been to consume harder illicit substances, mostly cocaine. It's effective but definitely not sustainable long time and I'm not too sure where from here.
I have been in this situation. I only saw two options for myself: move from cocaine to adderall, for the focus specifically, presuming you didn’t leave adderall for cocaine, of course.
Second, seek medical help. Today, thats the path I would choose. You need a social safety net too, or things might take a bad turn.
Good luck with it, be well, and try and care for yourself the way you’d care for a sick parent or child.
Second, seek medical help. Today, thats the path I would choose. You need a social safety net too, or things might take a bad turn.
Good luck with it, be well, and try and care for yourself the way you’d care for a sick parent or child.
I mix Adderall and marijuana. It's horrible for my health, but boy does it work. Adderall gets my mind moving, and pot keeps me sitting in my chair, ignorant of the passage of time, focused on work.
As counterproductive as it seems, I think pot makes me more mindful, which can boost my work productivity. Sometimes I will smoke and then spend 30 minutes organizing my folder structures, documenting code, or writing a script to do something that I do manually everyday. When I'm not on pot, all of those tasks seem too trivial to justify doing.
As counterproductive as it seems, I think pot makes me more mindful, which can boost my work productivity. Sometimes I will smoke and then spend 30 minutes organizing my folder structures, documenting code, or writing a script to do something that I do manually everyday. When I'm not on pot, all of those tasks seem too trivial to justify doing.
> I mix Adderall and marijuana.
What's the evidence that it is horrible for your health?
I am in the same boat, but I couldn't find anything conclusive when I was trying to do my research. Just various things that either or can cause an increase in heart rate and blood pressure, and I would assume combining both just increases said cardiac effects more.
What's the evidence that it is horrible for your health?
I am in the same boat, but I couldn't find anything conclusive when I was trying to do my research. Just various things that either or can cause an increase in heart rate and blood pressure, and I would assume combining both just increases said cardiac effects more.
Short answer, prescription drugs can reliably fill in the spot of cocaine. You'll save money, stress and also these drugs can cover much more of the day.
No joke; shoot me an email if you want a detailed solution. I can easily chew your ear off with my own tale and anecdotes. Email on my profile page.
No joke; shoot me an email if you want a detailed solution. I can easily chew your ear off with my own tale and anecdotes. Email on my profile page.
Try Modafinil, it replaced my coke habit.
I was later diagnosed with severe ADHD.
I was later diagnosed with severe ADHD.
Desoxyn 5mg is highly reviewed by people who have it prescribed for ADHD.
Good luck getting prescribed that by any GP.
I am as above board as I can be when it comes to my medicine (never take more than 1 a day, never ask for more, etc) but the song and dance for getting refills, let alone a new or changed prescription, makes me feel like a criminal hunting for his next fix.
I can't imagine what it must be like for people who legitimately need opiates.
I am as above board as I can be when it comes to my medicine (never take more than 1 a day, never ask for more, etc) but the song and dance for getting refills, let alone a new or changed prescription, makes me feel like a criminal hunting for his next fix.
I can't imagine what it must be like for people who legitimately need opiates.
It seems bitterly ironic that the people who need those stimulant medications the most tend to be those who will have the most trouble jumping through all the hoops, and continuing to perform the song and dance on time every month.
The 'good news' is the active compound in Desoxyn is widely available at cheap prices and surprisingly high-purity in hypo-regulated markets. It is, in a way, easier to acquire (on every street corner and through the mail) than many very boring prescription chemicals. So there is at least a theoretical alternative.
Amphetamines for ADHD is one of the most effective treatment there is in all of medicine, along with things like insulin for diabetics and benzodiazepines for anxiety.
Unfortunately, self-medicating with N-methylamphetamine is an extraordinarily unwise thing to try. It is hard to recommend that anyone who is already prone to substance abuse attempt that maneuver.
The 'good news' is the active compound in Desoxyn is widely available at cheap prices and surprisingly high-purity in hypo-regulated markets. It is, in a way, easier to acquire (on every street corner and through the mail) than many very boring prescription chemicals. So there is at least a theoretical alternative.
Amphetamines for ADHD is one of the most effective treatment there is in all of medicine, along with things like insulin for diabetics and benzodiazepines for anxiety.
Unfortunately, self-medicating with N-methylamphetamine is an extraordinarily unwise thing to try. It is hard to recommend that anyone who is already prone to substance abuse attempt that maneuver.
Yeah, but this is true for all debilitating conditions, like chronic pain, chronic insomnia, depression, bipolar, schizophrenia or any kind of psychosis, many kinds of physical disability, etc. It all makes it way harder to get to the doctor and do the things you gotta do to get better. A real catch-22 for millions of people daily.
My 78-year-old father, who doesn't even drink or smoke, gets Norcos for his back. He's a pool player and he just uses them when he plays long enough to trigger his back pain; on a normal day at the house, he won't use any.
The hoops and ridiculous requirements he has to jump through are crazy. He just got a random drug test the other day. He has to meet with the doc all the time. They ask him stupid questions (I've been in the room). He has to fill out the same form each time with all these questions about addictive behavior. He's got to bring his pill bottle with him; not allowed to have too many pills, or too few, or you get in trouble. Doc was quizzing him about why he has other prescribed medications. And on and on.
My dad has to set aside pills so that he doesn't lose the prescription, since he doesn't use as many pills as he's prescribed; it's highly important to him, as he's played pool nearly every single day for about 57 years and he is going to hold onto that as long as he can.
The hoops and ridiculous requirements he has to jump through are crazy. He just got a random drug test the other day. He has to meet with the doc all the time. They ask him stupid questions (I've been in the room). He has to fill out the same form each time with all these questions about addictive behavior. He's got to bring his pill bottle with him; not allowed to have too many pills, or too few, or you get in trouble. Doc was quizzing him about why he has other prescribed medications. And on and on.
My dad has to set aside pills so that he doesn't lose the prescription, since he doesn't use as many pills as he's prescribed; it's highly important to him, as he's played pool nearly every single day for about 57 years and he is going to hold onto that as long as he can.
I think it's really hard to look at the opioid epidemic and not think that these medications should have a really high bar to acquire. I'm sorry your father has to put in so much effort.
Opioids should require a reasonable bar, if we go from a really low bar to a really high bar, all we are doing is making the same mistake twice, but in opposite directions.
The wildly excessive prescription of oxycontin & opioid is a crisis and a tragedy. If the response is an overreaction in the opposite direction, the result is also more tragedies.
Pain doctors seem like they are really stuck between a rock and a hard place now. You have a whole population of patients who have been given pain meds like candy, and when you suddenly take them away they're left dealing with the problem. Some of them turn to street drugs out of desperation, and that's a countdown to another fentanyl overdose.
Then there's people with chronic pain who may legitimately need the medication on a continued basis (some of whom have had their dosage increase to dizzying levels during the opioid crisis!) You frequently have patients with chronic pain who, after the pills are taking away, spend their time thinking of ways of killing themselves, as a pain management option. They cannot deal with the all-natural, constant torture.
When I look at the opioid epidemic, to me it's really hard not to think that the onus should be on pharmaceutical companies to not advertise their pain medication to doctors as non-habit forming when they are the very opposite, and results in those extremely addictive pills being given like candy to an entire population.
The wildly excessive prescription of oxycontin & opioid is a crisis and a tragedy. If the response is an overreaction in the opposite direction, the result is also more tragedies.
Pain doctors seem like they are really stuck between a rock and a hard place now. You have a whole population of patients who have been given pain meds like candy, and when you suddenly take them away they're left dealing with the problem. Some of them turn to street drugs out of desperation, and that's a countdown to another fentanyl overdose.
Then there's people with chronic pain who may legitimately need the medication on a continued basis (some of whom have had their dosage increase to dizzying levels during the opioid crisis!) You frequently have patients with chronic pain who, after the pills are taking away, spend their time thinking of ways of killing themselves, as a pain management option. They cannot deal with the all-natural, constant torture.
When I look at the opioid epidemic, to me it's really hard not to think that the onus should be on pharmaceutical companies to not advertise their pain medication to doctors as non-habit forming when they are the very opposite, and results in those extremely addictive pills being given like candy to an entire population.
Look for a different doctor/psychiatrist, perhaps one in a wealthy area. I was 20 and my guy gleefully offered to up my dose. He asked me like 10 filter questions that had obviously 'correct' answers like "Do you struggle to pay attention?"
I originally sought psychiatric help because of extreme depression. After meeting me the doctor gave me a standardized survey to fill out - I assumed to take away with me and bring back. But he told me to sit down in the lobby and take it now. Turns out it was an adhd quiz kind of thing, and he knew that if I didn’t fill it out in his office I’d never remember to bring it back.
I don't see why one would jump to methamphetamine as a prescription when dextroamphetamine is usually at least as effective with fewer adverse effects
Desoxyn is brand name methamphetamine, just fyi
Generic name: methamphetamine hydrochloride
Ummmm??? Maybe not a best first step to working on ADHD Problems...
Ummmm??? Maybe not a best first step to working on ADHD Problems...
No medication is ever the best first step but it's often a necessary one.
Meth isn't just any medication. The idea that meth is where to start is insane and not actually going to happen. The comment was ridiculous (maybe a joke?) It's a second-line treatment at best and still horrible for you. There are tons of other drugs to start with.
I was exactly like OP for 2 years. I was in therapy talking about it that whole time, to no result whatsoever. Then I got on Wellbutrin and literally ten days later all of that behavior just completely ended, and I returned to taking care of important shit and being productive. No willpower required. I just suddenly felt compelled to do different things. Just saying.
Wellbutrin is known to fuck with dopamine, presumably sometimes for the better.
Wellbutrin is known to fuck with dopamine, presumably sometimes for the better.
How many years ago was that?
How does one generally go about dealing with the fact that the above is a 100% match for oneself, 30-some years into life? I'm feeling physically sweaty realizing how accurately the article – and this comment – describes me.
First thing to consider is whether your behavior is causing problems with your life. Are you flaking on responsibilities? Failing at work? Are you feeling out of control?
Next, set up an appointment with a mental health professional (I recommend a psychiatrist) to talk through your thoughts. They will help you identify the causes of your behavior and provide solutions.
Next, set up an appointment with a mental health professional (I recommend a psychiatrist) to talk through your thoughts. They will help you identify the causes of your behavior and provide solutions.
Whether it leads to an ADHD diagnosis or not, therapy is a great place to start.
And whether you have it or not, learning about ADHD is a great thing to do. I recommend starting with this cheesy yet informative YouTube channel: https://m.youtube.com/c/HowtoADHD
And whether you have it or not, learning about ADHD is a great thing to do. I recommend starting with this cheesy yet informative YouTube channel: https://m.youtube.com/c/HowtoADHD
> Everyone has "a little ADHD".
I get what you’re saying but I want to push back hard on this. Everyone has some of the symptoms of ADHD at any given time.
But, ADHD isn’t more of the same symptoms. That’s how it’s diagnosed, but the underlying mechanism is a severely compromised ability to self-regulate which is categorically different from what people experience when they are out of mental energy.
Edit: I've clarified what I mean in other comments in the thread. My issue is the use of the phrase without explaining why it is wrong.
I get what you’re saying but I want to push back hard on this. Everyone has some of the symptoms of ADHD at any given time.
But, ADHD isn’t more of the same symptoms. That’s how it’s diagnosed, but the underlying mechanism is a severely compromised ability to self-regulate which is categorically different from what people experience when they are out of mental energy.
Edit: I've clarified what I mean in other comments in the thread. My issue is the use of the phrase without explaining why it is wrong.
You're splitting hairs.
Everyone has a little trouble regulating themselves, some people have a little more trouble, some people have enough trouble that it becomes a disorder.
Everyone has a little trouble regulating themselves, some people have a little more trouble, some people have enough trouble that it becomes a disorder.
That's the entire point I'm trying to make. "Everyone has X" is a categorically wrong understanding of what the underlying problem is.
An equivalent is saying everyone has trouble walking sometimes when we're talking about someone who limps and needs a cane.
The symptoms are not the disorder and don't come from the same mechanism that causes normal people to have difficultly paying attention sometimes.
An equivalent is saying everyone has trouble walking sometimes when we're talking about someone who limps and needs a cane.
The symptoms are not the disorder and don't come from the same mechanism that causes normal people to have difficultly paying attention sometimes.
Absolutely this. A normal range of feeling / experience isn't a "bit of a disorder" ... it is no disorder.
Feeling like you need to wash dirt off your hands before eating isn't a "bit of OCD", that's normal.
Worrying irrationally so much about clean hands that it ruins your life, leaving you crying from normal tasks like cooking ... every touch of a surface triggers fight/flight ... is a disorder.
It isn't the mechanism that's important, but the impact and motivators.
Same with ADHD. A bit of being inattentive or forgetful or whatever ... isn't a "bit" of the disorder that also contains some of those behaviours in extreme.
Feeling like you need to wash dirt off your hands before eating isn't a "bit of OCD", that's normal.
Worrying irrationally so much about clean hands that it ruins your life, leaving you crying from normal tasks like cooking ... every touch of a surface triggers fight/flight ... is a disorder.
It isn't the mechanism that's important, but the impact and motivators.
Same with ADHD. A bit of being inattentive or forgetful or whatever ... isn't a "bit" of the disorder that also contains some of those behaviours in extreme.
In many cases it is not a differing underlying cause but simply the same thing further out of balance. Psychiatry diagnoses are essentially never based on a mechanistic explanation and I challenge you to come up with an actual binary change present in those with adhd and those without besides the latter having somebody put that label on them.
I think your reaction is understandable, since "Everyone is/has a little X" is commonly used to dismiss or minimize the severity of a condition the speaker doesn't understand.
But I don't feel like that's the case here.
But I don't feel like that's the case here.
> I think your reaction is understandable, since "Everyone is/has a little X" is commonly used to dismiss or minimize the severity of a condition the speaker doesn't understand.
Personally when I hear people speak like this I assume they're trying to root someone in an empathetic perspective. I'm not sure I've ever heard it from someone who was arguing against the seriousness of the subject.
Personally when I hear people speak like this I assume they're trying to root someone in an empathetic perspective. I'm not sure I've ever heard it from someone who was arguing against the seriousness of the subject.
I grew up my entire life being told everyone has a little ADHD and I just needed to try harder to pay attention. I've still heard it as an adult.
My issue was using the phrase in the first place without some explanation of just how wrong the idea is.
My issue was using the phrase in the first place without some explanation of just how wrong the idea is.
Ah, yeah, I guess if it's being said to you about you, that's different. In this case, OP is speaking to a wider audience, so I see that as different, but I appreciate your perspective.
AFAICT, GP agree with you.
> Sounds like OP isn't necessarily an addict: they have ADHD
Two sides of the same coin imho. Both mechanisms are dopamine-driven.
Two sides of the same coin imho. Both mechanisms are dopamine-driven.
That's literally my point.
ADHD is like having a coin that's to thin for the press (stimulation/dopamine) to leave a mark. Addiction is like having the press put too much pressure.
ADHD is like having a coin that's to thin for the press (stimulation/dopamine) to leave a mark. Addiction is like having the press put too much pressure.
This shouldn't be flagged... This was a totally valid comment which generated tons of fine discussion.
> Because of the deficit in stimulus, people with untreated ADHD are statistically much more likely to have a substance abuse disorder (SAD); but in many cases, treating their ADHD (with medication and cognitive behavioral therapy) has the side effect of treating their SAD
I feel like I am one of the rare people that developed a SAD from medically treating ADHD. It's not from the intended effects of the medication, but from trying to treat the side-effects.
I feel like I am one of the rare people that developed a SAD from medically treating ADHD. It's not from the intended effects of the medication, but from trying to treat the side-effects.
I do think one should not bring it all to adhd being a physiological deficiency of the brain.
For me personally it is also about being above average smart. I'm intensely bored by a lot of people and activities. I lose interest, can't remember a lot, get irritated easily.
After many years I have some good friends, work which suits me, I know how to leasure well, basically I know how to amuse and challenge myself and don't experience lots of the adhs symptoms anymore.
For me personally it is also about being above average smart. I'm intensely bored by a lot of people and activities. I lose interest, can't remember a lot, get irritated easily.
After many years I have some good friends, work which suits me, I know how to leasure well, basically I know how to amuse and challenge myself and don't experience lots of the adhs symptoms anymore.
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People with ADHD are twice as likely to become addicted to substances, I assume the same is true of YouTube. For many, including me, ADHD and addiction come hand in hand.
> "a little ADHD"
Yikes. What a bad take. Many people experience some of the side effects of ADHD may be a true statement. But saying everyone has a little bit of this debilitating mental disorder makes light of something that is not an easy thing to deal with for many sufferers.
That's like saying everyone has a little cancer because sometimes we all get colds which people going through chemo may be more likely to get.
Yikes. What a bad take. Many people experience some of the side effects of ADHD may be a true statement. But saying everyone has a little bit of this debilitating mental disorder makes light of something that is not an easy thing to deal with for many sufferers.
That's like saying everyone has a little cancer because sometimes we all get colds which people going through chemo may be more likely to get.
I think a better way to frame it is on a continuum. If you lose 1% of the strength in your legs you probably won't notice. If you lose 99% you're stuck using a wheelchair. There's no clearly defined point where it goes from "normal" to "problematic", but if it's bad enough to affect you functioning in day-to-day life then it's an issue.
Yes, but the clue is in the name. Disorder.
It's like concern for having clean hands. A certain amount is sensible, normal and part of being a human.
Too much of that concern, when it becomes life ruining anxiety ... is a disorder. Normal concern for clean hands isn't "a little bit of OCD".
It's like concern for having clean hands. A certain amount is sensible, normal and part of being a human.
Too much of that concern, when it becomes life ruining anxiety ... is a disorder. Normal concern for clean hands isn't "a little bit of OCD".
Autism is also classified as a neurodevelopmental disorder, and yet it is a spectrum.
The fact that we, as humans, have to decide who gets the label of 'Has the Disorder' and who doesn't is just an artifact of how we like to label things.
For the same reason that you don't magically go from a child to an adult the minute you turn 18. There is a smooth spectrum of development as people age, but for practical and legal reasons we need a cutoff for officially calling people adults.
Some disorders are also on a smooth spectrum. Some people have a little anxiety, or show a few autistic symptoms without it ruining their lives. That doesn't invalidate the experience of people who have severe anxiety or a more advanced degree of autism. Don't imbue too much meaning to the where the cutoff for the label is.
There's no need to gatekeep mental illness, the goal is helping people. We're not competing for who has the real thing™ and deserves to be taken seriously. Let's just listen to people, let them describe things as they perceive them to be, and try to be helpful.
The fact that we, as humans, have to decide who gets the label of 'Has the Disorder' and who doesn't is just an artifact of how we like to label things.
For the same reason that you don't magically go from a child to an adult the minute you turn 18. There is a smooth spectrum of development as people age, but for practical and legal reasons we need a cutoff for officially calling people adults.
Some disorders are also on a smooth spectrum. Some people have a little anxiety, or show a few autistic symptoms without it ruining their lives. That doesn't invalidate the experience of people who have severe anxiety or a more advanced degree of autism. Don't imbue too much meaning to the where the cutoff for the label is.
There's no need to gatekeep mental illness, the goal is helping people. We're not competing for who has the real thing™ and deserves to be taken seriously. Let's just listen to people, let them describe things as they perceive them to be, and try to be helpful.
I agree, I think I was making the distinction between doing X due to reasons you're happy with and that are considered normal and doing X due to anxiety.
Those two X's are not the same, and it isn't useful to compare them even though they appear comparable or similar or the same.
The key bit is the anxiety (however small or large, frequent or infrequent) that makes the distinction.
Those two X's are not the same, and it isn't useful to compare them even though they appear comparable or similar or the same.
The key bit is the anxiety (however small or large, frequent or infrequent) that makes the distinction.
Okay, I see what you mean with the clean hands analogy now. I've definitely seen people on social media for example using OCD as an exaggeration for completely normal, even positive things.
I agree it's not very useful to use labels for behaviors that are considered normal and don't have any negative cause or impact (whether that's anxiety or something else).
My understanding is that a good part of the diagnosis of many disorders, as per the DSM, is by looking at the impact they have on one's life. If someone is perfectly happy with what they're doing, it's certainly an important distinction that makes labeling them with X disorder somewhat less meaningful.
I agree it's not very useful to use labels for behaviors that are considered normal and don't have any negative cause or impact (whether that's anxiety or something else).
My understanding is that a good part of the diagnosis of many disorders, as per the DSM, is by looking at the impact they have on one's life. If someone is perfectly happy with what they're doing, it's certainly an important distinction that makes labeling them with X disorder somewhat less meaningful.
I think we focus too much on the "what you can see" and "how it impacts others" rather than "how does this feel to the person experiencing it" when we describe these things.
It really muddles the picture and distorts what's really important; the experience of anxiety/stress/irrationality/impulsivity/attention issues/ ... to the person feeling it.
It really muddles the picture and distorts what's really important; the experience of anxiety/stress/irrationality/impulsivity/attention issues/ ... to the person feeling it.
> Many people experience some of the side effects of ADHD may be a true statement.
I think that's exactly what they meant, since they put it in quotes and then go on to say that ADHD proper is when those complications are debilitating.
I think that's exactly what they meant, since they put it in quotes and then go on to say that ADHD proper is when those complications are debilitating.
Sure. Then they should have said that. It feels odd to write an untrue thing to represent a different thing that may be true and expect everyone would understand your intention.
It scares me how much this reminds me of myself. I don't know how I was able to keep my job (and keep the roof over my family's heads) with my habit of not being able to concentrate on work at all because the minute I need to think a bit harder I immediately switch to reading news, HN or watching YouTube, only to finish my work late in the evening to save my ass (on good days).
Not that I've conquered it by any means, but I find narrating helps for me to maintain a thread of activity. Lots of my work involves switching between applications & cloud folders and any break in that can trip me up. I find if I talk to myself as if I were explaining what I'm doing (ie a tutorial but not as rigorous) that really helps. I used to use screen capture software to take time-lapse videos to give myself the impression I was being watched/monitored. But that isn't as effective as I know I'll probably never watch them.
Yeah it is definitely for me a reaction to feeling overwhelmed. There's just that bit of activation energy that is missing so I slip back to equilibrium of doing easy things.
Adderall has helped, so has some behavioral approaches, but nothing is a cure. For me, trying to eliminate distractions is either a distraction itself or ineffective.
Structured procrastination is useful, at least I am practicing piano or getting more fit instead of sitting around watching TV or reading dumb articles and forums.
Adderall has helped, so has some behavioral approaches, but nothing is a cure. For me, trying to eliminate distractions is either a distraction itself or ineffective.
Structured procrastination is useful, at least I am practicing piano or getting more fit instead of sitting around watching TV or reading dumb articles and forums.
High BPM music does it for me.
Music works for me too. When I listen to music, the feeling of choosing between "fun" and "work" disappears because I get to do both. Once I am focusing on the work I no longer pay attention to the music and I don't stop having fun with the work.
The biggest problem is that I am randomly bored and watch a youtube video. It's just 15 minutes after all, how much could it hurt? and then I waste 2 hours which is 105 minutes more than I had when I started watching that video. Maybe I should play mobile games because those have those pesky daily energy limits that stop you from playing more.
The biggest problem is that I am randomly bored and watch a youtube video. It's just 15 minutes after all, how much could it hurt? and then I waste 2 hours which is 105 minutes more than I had when I started watching that video. Maybe I should play mobile games because those have those pesky daily energy limits that stop you from playing more.
Same, or mostly just mixes that go on for an hour or two which I can put on so I don't end up distracted clicking through tracks and discovering shit I want to get. I also have to remind myself to set time aside for checking tracklists on tracks.
Helps I got a side gig playing music haha but my bookmarks on that are gargantuan. The dancehall reggae section alone is massive. I never listen to that and get stuff done, really the best concentration music for me doesn't matter the BPM it just has to be mostly free of lyrical content. So work music is mostly electronic or classical.
What are you listening to that's high BPM for work? That hard techno shit out of Europe lately is a lot of fun, Anetha is incredible [1]
[1] https://youtu.be/qVRj8-t4PwI
Helps I got a side gig playing music haha but my bookmarks on that are gargantuan. The dancehall reggae section alone is massive. I never listen to that and get stuff done, really the best concentration music for me doesn't matter the BPM it just has to be mostly free of lyrical content. So work music is mostly electronic or classical.
What are you listening to that's high BPM for work? That hard techno shit out of Europe lately is a lot of fun, Anetha is incredible [1]
[1] https://youtu.be/qVRj8-t4PwI
Lucy Stoner on Soundcloud has been good for me. I've been putting https://soundcloud.com/lucystoner/bangface# on pretty much on loop. Before that it was DJ Sharpnel's Youtube channel. It's an open question for me what the best ratio of beats to memes is; I like when the music makes me smile a few times over a track, but is mostly fast, melodic rhythm without voice - or voice without content; remixes with japanese samples work well, like https://soundcloud.com/dreamydust/ddmix32 .
Holy crap, someone knows about DJ Sharpnel—who are of course in fact a duo and are producers, not DJs. The music is truly a ‘cure for ADHD’, though (in the spirit of https://youtu.be/DDFNgs7gp8M). Plus they have a whole label of friendly producers with similar taste and were around actively for more than a decade, so there's plenty of goodness.
That's funny, haven't heard that name in ages. I remember in like 2005 when you could get some mixes in low quality mp3s of japanese makina (that's what they called it before nightcore or anything) but to get them shipped on high quality cd-r's stateside you'd be paying like 100-200$. It's a weird musical tradition that traces itself all the way back to spain's take on early happy hardcore out of scotland (Check newton - streamline as an example of spanish makina which you still hear at football games today).
Shit is WAY too spazzy for me to focus though, I guess you guys got different brainwaves than I do. It's funny because in the suggestions I got this, titled pov: you have adhd (breakcore mix) [1]
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mojBQ6yo7_o
Shit is WAY too spazzy for me to focus though, I guess you guys got different brainwaves than I do. It's funny because in the suggestions I got this, titled pov: you have adhd (breakcore mix) [1]
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mojBQ6yo7_o
It's a bit too spazzy for me as well. Sharpnel isn't always like that though. (Skip any songs by killingscum (alias) if you don't like that style. :P) I mean, take something like Invisible Trigger [1], it's a lot more melodically and thematically stable.
I think personally what I like about them is as much as they're not above taking some sample and running it into the ground, they have a really good ear for melody and pathos. IMO all their best songs start by them going "this anime soundtrack is great, but it could be about 25% faster and more high pitched and backed by a really hard beat." And you know, they're usually right.
A really good example for me is [2], Jersey*Spirit, which is a remix of Try Unite! [3], some anime opening. I think depending on which you listen to first you're going to have a totally different idea of how that melody is supposed to go, because as far as I can tell without a music education, by inserting a break with a slowed down voice sample and leaving out some parts, Sharpnel's version puts the verse emphasis on a totally different measure than the original (the "fly away" part is the "B" measure in the original, and the "A" measure in Jersey*Spirit). Would you have heard that was in there? I wouldn't! And I'm not making a statement on which take is better, but to me, having heard Sharpnel's take first, the just original seems unbearably slow, and also they should put that melodic idea in the center instead.
edit: And that's how I learnt that HNews strips unicode symbols...
edit: Also I challenge you to listen to Watashi wa Maid without getting it stuck permanently in your head. [4] but note that the album art is very nsfw. (Yes this was the only version I could find. Youtube probably keeps taking it down, can't imagine why.) Then compare to the [5] original - if you can, without falling asleep!
edit: Also that's from a hentai OVA. I should note that. Fucking Sharpnel, how do they find this stuff... but you can't argue they don't elevate it above the source material.
edit: As a final link, here's a (VR) DJ set they did recently that I like a lot. [6] It's less of their own songs and also a bit slower and less hyper. Might be more to your liking.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjpHgH8a8IY
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4x9W7kKl_k
[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaKXIxnon_8
[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=996u-54Fscs NSFW album cover!
[5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4eFsbnEHR4
[6] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYMzaqzXqMo
I think personally what I like about them is as much as they're not above taking some sample and running it into the ground, they have a really good ear for melody and pathos. IMO all their best songs start by them going "this anime soundtrack is great, but it could be about 25% faster and more high pitched and backed by a really hard beat." And you know, they're usually right.
A really good example for me is [2], Jersey*Spirit, which is a remix of Try Unite! [3], some anime opening. I think depending on which you listen to first you're going to have a totally different idea of how that melody is supposed to go, because as far as I can tell without a music education, by inserting a break with a slowed down voice sample and leaving out some parts, Sharpnel's version puts the verse emphasis on a totally different measure than the original (the "fly away" part is the "B" measure in the original, and the "A" measure in Jersey*Spirit). Would you have heard that was in there? I wouldn't! And I'm not making a statement on which take is better, but to me, having heard Sharpnel's take first, the just original seems unbearably slow, and also they should put that melodic idea in the center instead.
edit: And that's how I learnt that HNews strips unicode symbols...
edit: Also I challenge you to listen to Watashi wa Maid without getting it stuck permanently in your head. [4] but note that the album art is very nsfw. (Yes this was the only version I could find. Youtube probably keeps taking it down, can't imagine why.) Then compare to the [5] original - if you can, without falling asleep!
edit: Also that's from a hentai OVA. I should note that. Fucking Sharpnel, how do they find this stuff... but you can't argue they don't elevate it above the source material.
edit: As a final link, here's a (VR) DJ set they did recently that I like a lot. [6] It's less of their own songs and also a bit slower and less hyper. Might be more to your liking.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjpHgH8a8IY
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4x9W7kKl_k
[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaKXIxnon_8
[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=996u-54Fscs NSFW album cover!
[5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4eFsbnEHR4
[6] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYMzaqzXqMo
Their VRDJ vtuber stuff qualifies as DJ work, surely? (Even if it sounds very different than their album stuff.)
Anyway, my pet theory is that the fast music acts as a stimulant, raising activity in every part of the brain - including executive function. Same principle as amphetamines.
Anyway, my pet theory is that the fast music acts as a stimulant, raising activity in every part of the brain - including executive function. Same principle as amphetamines.
> hard techno shit out of Europe lately
I'm gonna need names.
I'm gonna need names.
Peep the tracklist on that mix I posted in the parent comment
This hits hard. I recently counted hours watched on YT (via history export) and OH MY GD, it averaged around 3 hours daily throught the year, for several years. I just imagined WHAT IF I have spent this amount of effort and time on ANYTHING else: playing an instrument, learning a new language, coding a side-project. The thought scared me so much, aka the difference between current me and "potential" me that I have abstained from YT... for a week, and then I've slipped back. I am truly powerless, damn. Any other ideas besides cold turkey? I mean, some "quality time" needs also to exist, you cannot abstain from everything, right? Or is this a fallacy that gets alcoholics backs to alcohol?
Very un-HN take but maybe you're not meant to be 100% efficient all the time, maybe having some time to be passive and relax is good actually. Maybe we work far too much already and expecting to be additionally productive outside those hours is an express train to burnout?
I don't disagree with this but the constant state of being "plugged in" is the issue. Mind wandering is a real useful practice and the being plugged in is antithetical to mind wandering.
Some of my most clearest thoughts, ideas, or beliefs came to me when I was just walking on the street not listening to podcasts, audio books, music or browsing social media.
I think it's far more useful to literally stare at a wall for 3 hours than just mindlessly watch youtube videos. I say this as someone who is addicted to social media/internet as well and struggle very hard to overcome.
What I do is use the freedom app to set time limits and ban these sites during periods of the week. I bought one of those timed safes where I stick my phone in to completely stop the temptation for 4 or 6 hours. I know I can't completely end it, but what I want to do is just nudge myself to do something else. Instead of grabbing a phone maybe I'll attempt to read a book, or draw, or work on some data visualizations, or contribute to OSS. All activities I'd say I value more than browsing reddit (or twitter or youtube or HN) for hours every night, but my actions prove otherwise.
I'm not saying I've improved my habits 300% but at the beginning of the year I would read a book for 5 minutes put the book down pick up my phone then read reddit for an hour; at least now I can read a book for 45 minutes without being distracted. It hurts writing this because in college I'd read nearly 500 pages a week + my readings for class, I'd read nearly 200 books a year but over the last 5 years I've probably read 3.
I don't know where I'm going with this, I guess my mind wanders when writing as well...
Some of my most clearest thoughts, ideas, or beliefs came to me when I was just walking on the street not listening to podcasts, audio books, music or browsing social media.
I think it's far more useful to literally stare at a wall for 3 hours than just mindlessly watch youtube videos. I say this as someone who is addicted to social media/internet as well and struggle very hard to overcome.
What I do is use the freedom app to set time limits and ban these sites during periods of the week. I bought one of those timed safes where I stick my phone in to completely stop the temptation for 4 or 6 hours. I know I can't completely end it, but what I want to do is just nudge myself to do something else. Instead of grabbing a phone maybe I'll attempt to read a book, or draw, or work on some data visualizations, or contribute to OSS. All activities I'd say I value more than browsing reddit (or twitter or youtube or HN) for hours every night, but my actions prove otherwise.
I'm not saying I've improved my habits 300% but at the beginning of the year I would read a book for 5 minutes put the book down pick up my phone then read reddit for an hour; at least now I can read a book for 45 minutes without being distracted. It hurts writing this because in college I'd read nearly 500 pages a week + my readings for class, I'd read nearly 200 books a year but over the last 5 years I've probably read 3.
I don't know where I'm going with this, I guess my mind wanders when writing as well...
It sounds like you're already approaching this idea on your own, but if you haven't checked it out already you should have a look at Digital Minimalism [1]. It's a really well thought out analysis of exactly what you're describing. In theory, a few hours here and there shouldn't be an issue. However, the main problem with modern media (social and otherwise) is that it is very insidious. It's not just about the time spent indulging, but also what that indulgence does to your mental state throughout the rest of the day.
[1] https://www.calnewport.com/books/digital-minimalism/
[1] https://www.calnewport.com/books/digital-minimalism/
Thanks for the suggestion; but after reading one similar book, Stolen Focus by Johann Hari, and another that was tangentially related, Four Thousand Weeks by Oliver Burkeman. I now feel tapped out of the genre.
One thing I enjoyed about Four Thousand Weeks was the story how people viewed work 100s and thousands of years ago, how whatever you didn't finish that day, you had time tomorrow to continue; I think this is a useful idea because modern society feels so "rushed" over work that isn't exactly useful. Also the idea of JOMO (joy of missing out); it was just a new heuristic introduced to me. We make choices all the time, we neglect doing things all the time. It's just a part of life, missing out on things means enjoying others It sounds like it's more stressful but it's not, at least how the book describes this.
With Stolen Focus, I was a fan of the author's interview about his other book "Lost Connections" when he appeared on an episode of econtalk [1]. I won't say much else about Stolen Focus, except his tips on what he does to lessen the nodge toward social media is what I now do as well.
[1] https://www.econtalk.org/johann-hari-on-lost-connections/
One thing I enjoyed about Four Thousand Weeks was the story how people viewed work 100s and thousands of years ago, how whatever you didn't finish that day, you had time tomorrow to continue; I think this is a useful idea because modern society feels so "rushed" over work that isn't exactly useful. Also the idea of JOMO (joy of missing out); it was just a new heuristic introduced to me. We make choices all the time, we neglect doing things all the time. It's just a part of life, missing out on things means enjoying others It sounds like it's more stressful but it's not, at least how the book describes this.
With Stolen Focus, I was a fan of the author's interview about his other book "Lost Connections" when he appeared on an episode of econtalk [1]. I won't say much else about Stolen Focus, except his tips on what he does to lessen the nodge toward social media is what I now do as well.
[1] https://www.econtalk.org/johann-hari-on-lost-connections/
Instead of seeing them trying to maximize efficiency, think of them trying to maximize fulfillment. Now it makes more sense why binging Youtube (or whatever) might be a problem. And it's not about getting work done.
It's about being happy with the life you're living, the life you chose, and being able to take control to work towards your fulfilling desires rather than just choosing the feel-good compulsions forever.
It's about being happy with the life you're living, the life you chose, and being able to take control to work towards your fulfilling desires rather than just choosing the feel-good compulsions forever.
The self-perceived problem with such behavior is not the hours spent per se, but the hours spent in state of absent consciousness. You jump from one compulsory behavior to another, it's not fun, it's just unconscious existence.
I don’t think the parent comment is arguing for 100% efficiency though. They just don’t feel comfortable watching YT for an average of 3 hours a day.
Not to say it's a great use of your time, but watching YouTube videos is a fairly passive activity. You can do it when you're otherwise out of energy and barely able to pay attention, so it isn't necessarily competing with blocks of time in which you can do something like code up side projects and learn to play new instruments.
Also, again maybe not for you, but a lot of people's numbers if they're just looking at watch history are going to be totally out of whack if they're using YouTube as a music streaming service. My wife's account is the one logged into our television and this would constitute the vast bulk of watch hours, having music on in the background while cleaning the house, cooking dinner, and doing a whole lot of other things. You definitely can't practice tuba in the background while also cooking and cleaning.
Also, again maybe not for you, but a lot of people's numbers if they're just looking at watch history are going to be totally out of whack if they're using YouTube as a music streaming service. My wife's account is the one logged into our television and this would constitute the vast bulk of watch hours, having music on in the background while cleaning the house, cooking dinner, and doing a whole lot of other things. You definitely can't practice tuba in the background while also cooking and cleaning.
> 3 hours daily throught the year, for several years.
So, less than the average amount of time people spend watching TV?
So, less than the average amount of time people spend watching TV?
still a lot, imho. considering how much we spend on commute, work, sport, preparing food and socializing, this is basically almost all your time budget as a "free" time. Then its either wasted consuming addictive crap or doing something interesting with it.
I started learning Japanese about two years ago now and now all of the time I used to waste watching YouTube is spent watching YouTube in Japanese as language practice. It's still the same activity but is at least somewhat productive. I barely go on Hacker News too, since it feels like more of a waste of time ("I could be studying Japanese right now!").
Any particular recommendations for an intermediate Japanese learner?
Edit: Maybe "upper beginner" is a better fit. I dunno, self study is weird.
Edit: Maybe "upper beginner" is a better fit. I dunno, self study is weird.
It really depends on what you like. I personally just found Japanese versions of what I liked watching in English (cooking shows, true crime, some comedy, let's plays). Interestingly I found a new interest in house makeover shows after I saw some completely insane makeovers on 大改造 (in one episode they put the entire house on rails and pulled it to the side temporarily in order to make new foundations).
The only thing I couldn't find an abundance of is long-form video essays -- it seems that (for whatever reason) that isn't something that Japanese YouTube audiences want to watch. TV shows make documentaries which are kind of similar but those are also fairly hard to find.
The only thing I couldn't find an abundance of is long-form video essays -- it seems that (for whatever reason) that isn't something that Japanese YouTube audiences want to watch. TV shows make documentaries which are kind of similar but those are also fairly hard to find.
Self study is weird. I'm having a hard time finding good resources because I feel like the content is either too easy, not applicable by me, or completely impenetrable. I lack vocabulary and kanji knowledge to actually utilize grammar I've learned, but I also don't do well with rote memorization so I need material that's interesting and practical to learn with.
Yeah, for me my grammar is pretty weak, but I think my vocabulary is better. But I feel the same way about content. It's either too easy, really boring, or way too hard.
I was hoping for an easy win here. ;)
I was hoping for an easy win here. ;)
Nice! is there some purpose like career advancement or is it simply about pleasure and learning a new culture?
[deleted]
Just found it interesting to be honest. I might move there for a short time just to experience it, but I wouldn't plan to live there for the long term.
Impressive stuff, I hope you get to the level you want! keep at it.
I did similar with video games, playing them in a different language made me feel better about it.
>I just imagined WHAT IF I have spent this amount of effort and time on ANYTHING else:
That's impossible. You can click on a youtube video instantly at any moment and waste 3 hours thanks to the power of the algorithm. Spending that time on anything specific would require you to plan that into your schedule. You are not going to work on a side project when you think you have 30 min for some "harmless" fun but you sure are going to be trapped by the algorithm for three hours without planning to do so.
That's impossible. You can click on a youtube video instantly at any moment and waste 3 hours thanks to the power of the algorithm. Spending that time on anything specific would require you to plan that into your schedule. You are not going to work on a side project when you think you have 30 min for some "harmless" fun but you sure are going to be trapped by the algorithm for three hours without planning to do so.
> I just imagined WHAT IF I have spent this amount of effort and time on ANYTHING else: playing an instrument, learning a new language, coding a side-project
This is a very unfair set of "ANYTHING else". I am sure you can come up with more real world list of what other people actually do after work, and that might make you feel a little more lenient about your own choices and needs.
> Any other ideas besides cold turkey?
/etc/hosts
127.0.0.1 youtube.com
127.0.0.1 www.youtube.com
Best of luck.
This is a very unfair set of "ANYTHING else". I am sure you can come up with more real world list of what other people actually do after work, and that might make you feel a little more lenient about your own choices and needs.
> Any other ideas besides cold turkey?
/etc/hosts
127.0.0.1 youtube.com
127.0.0.1 www.youtube.com
Best of luck.
I even have cron job which over writes /etc/hosts with an /etc/hosts.bak with that content and i have disabled any dns caching in firefox (don't ask me how). Yet ....
Sigh ....
Oh smart. I sometimes remove it and then forget to put it back, and forget that it was something I was supposed to put back, and also forget that those sites were something I was trying to avoid, so visiting them doesn't prompt me to put them back. The brain is really good at forgetting those minor details.
This is very real. The time adds up and it's often not the best way to relax/learn. Not only you could spend this time being productive, you could also just be resting or sleeping or just reflecting on your life.
You might want to check out https://watchlimits.com/ (free extension, I built this), or some other tools I mention in https://watchlimits.com/blog/posts/more_hours_per_week/
You might want to check out https://watchlimits.com/ (free extension, I built this), or some other tools I mention in https://watchlimits.com/blog/posts/more_hours_per_week/
Read what Ted has to say about the necessity of going through the power process (paragraphs 33 onward) and the motives of scientists (paragraphs 87 onward) for some perspective in his manifesto on Industrial Society and Its Future:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/unab...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/unab...
A lot of the addictive component comes from the ML generated suggestions.
Just curate a decently small list of high quality channels and only browse via the subscriptions list. You'll know when you're all caught up and the FOMO isn't there. You'll still catch the stuff you're interested in, but you won't be pulled in a million other random directions.
That said, I have the YouTube bug pretty bad myself.
Just curate a decently small list of high quality channels and only browse via the subscriptions list. You'll know when you're all caught up and the FOMO isn't there. You'll still catch the stuff you're interested in, but you won't be pulled in a million other random directions.
That said, I have the YouTube bug pretty bad myself.
If you have YouTube Premium & the YouTube mobile app; click on your profile picture, then YouTube Premium Benefits. It'll tell you there, of all places, your total "Ad-free video watchtime"; doesn't include the hours watched without Premium, not organizing it per day, not the greatest analytics, but its a number that will surprise every person reading this.
Learning to play an instrument is fun and can be just as addicting. I'd recommend a small form keyboard that can be kept nearby at all times. I adore my Yamaha Reface CP, if you manage to find one. The best part - grinding through chords, arpeggios, scales and challenging song sections to get them into muscle memory can be done while watching unrelated videos.
Did you estimate the hours by summing total video lenghts in history?
As I recall there was no time spent stat, just video history eothout watchtime indication.
As I recall there was no time spent stat, just video history eothout watchtime indication.
There is no "official" way of doing this (as I imagine it will scare people away). You have to export your watch history as JSON that contains watch date and video ID. Then you obtain API key from google and iterate over all video IDs and add up video lengths. Yes, this is inaccurate for cases when you scroll thorugh a video and not watch it completely.
For all of this there were multiple projects on github that do all of this + with plots.
For all of this there were multiple projects on github that do all of this + with plots.
Ackshually, the mobile apps have statistics on watching, which seem to include what was watched on the desktop. Here's the support page about the feature: https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/9052667
Apparently videos watched on the desktop aren't counted correctly, but I imagine it's not worse than summing the durations.
Apparently videos watched on the desktop aren't counted correctly, but I imagine it's not worse than summing the durations.
Not only that, but now I watch all videos and listen to all podcasts at 1.5 to 3x speed. At some point I should accept the FOMO...
For me, a major part of ADHD management consists of forcing myself to do something, multiple times a day. It's work, learning, chores-like tasks, sport, hygiene, regular sleep, cold morning shower, unprocessed food preparation - pretty much everything that isn't immediately pleasurable.
I'm "unhappy" multiple times a day when I start doing something that doesn't usually have to be done right away. But it's often a choice not between doing something now or later, but doing something now, not never.
However weirdly this may sound - I constantly do things against myself, for myself. I don't get much satisfaction from finishing those tasks but my life quality has increased drastically and I wouldn't go back from moments of discomfort to an ongoing discomfort.
I'm "unhappy" multiple times a day when I start doing something that doesn't usually have to be done right away. But it's often a choice not between doing something now or later, but doing something now, not never.
However weirdly this may sound - I constantly do things against myself, for myself. I don't get much satisfaction from finishing those tasks but my life quality has increased drastically and I wouldn't go back from moments of discomfort to an ongoing discomfort.
Oh wow this resonates - I'm exactly the same. I basically try to minimize the time I spend thinking on most things. I have to consciously tell myself "I'm going to stop thinking and just do this task". It's amazing how when you do this, all of the sudden all of the stuff that's on the back of your mind (chores, exercise, etc) just get done in time and your anxiety goes away
Same same.
I think I'm a highly functional adha person due to my mom being a very responsible person and also I started taking Ritalin 12 years ago.
I'm always wandering how it feels for normal people who get there shit done without any meds.
I also want to do fire because all those responsibilities and the fighting feels exchausting.
I think I'm a highly functional adha person due to my mom being a very responsible person and also I started taking Ritalin 12 years ago.
I'm always wandering how it feels for normal people who get there shit done without any meds.
I also want to do fire because all those responsibilities and the fighting feels exchausting.
> how it feels for normal people who get there shit done
My perspective is that once I took a step back and really looked, I noticed almost nobody is getting ANY shit done, and perhaps that’s OK. I was just holding myself to unreasonable standards of what “shit done” is that I don’t hold other people to and that was the root cause of my exhaustion. Society progressing is really just a series of extremely tiny things with the occasional rare major event pushed up to human population scale, something that one individual can’t compete against without burning out.
I'm not saying there are absolutely no people out there who are actually getting shit done and making it look easy, and somehow never burning out, but they are by far the exception and in no way "normal" people (and in many cases they are ticking time bombs, but the fallout may be well hidden)
My perspective is that once I took a step back and really looked, I noticed almost nobody is getting ANY shit done, and perhaps that’s OK. I was just holding myself to unreasonable standards of what “shit done” is that I don’t hold other people to and that was the root cause of my exhaustion. Society progressing is really just a series of extremely tiny things with the occasional rare major event pushed up to human population scale, something that one individual can’t compete against without burning out.
I'm not saying there are absolutely no people out there who are actually getting shit done and making it look easy, and somehow never burning out, but they are by far the exception and in no way "normal" people (and in many cases they are ticking time bombs, but the fallout may be well hidden)
> I'm simply incapable of doing things I've set out to do. Simple things. Everything is difficult.
“Independent discharges of dopamine neurons (tonic or pacemaker firing) determine the motivation to respond to such cues. As a result of habitual intake of addictive drugs, dopamine receptors expressed in the brain are decreased, thereby reducing interest in activities not already stamped in by habitual rewards.”
From: Dopamine and Addiction | Annual Review of Psychology — https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-psych-...
----
Edit:
I'd like to add a couple more ideas, because what you're describing in your article is spot on, and I believe can be generalized past your own experience.
> Another angle that makes this ever more distressing is that my memory is very, very fallible ... I can confidently say that I've done nothing I said I would do there.”
Herbert Simon says: “In an information-rich world, the wealth of information means a dearth of something else: a scarcity of whatever it is that information consumes. What information consumes is rather obvious: it consumes the attention of its recipients. Hence, a wealth of information creates a poverty of attention”.
As an information-addict myself, I've been meditating a lot about this topic. During the past two years I've been researching it from a psychological perspective (And for that, I'm grateful to @ericd for this HN comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24581016). I'll throw in some resources that I've came across during this journey, in case anyone finds them useful:
- Dr Gabor Mate: Addiction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-APGWvYupU
- Dr. Anna Lembke: Understanding & Treating Addiction | Huberman Lab Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3JLaF_4Tz8
- The book “The Molecule of More” by by Daniel Z. Lieberman and Michael E. Long.
- The book “The Shallows” by Nicholas Carr.
“Independent discharges of dopamine neurons (tonic or pacemaker firing) determine the motivation to respond to such cues. As a result of habitual intake of addictive drugs, dopamine receptors expressed in the brain are decreased, thereby reducing interest in activities not already stamped in by habitual rewards.”
From: Dopamine and Addiction | Annual Review of Psychology — https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-psych-...
----
Edit:
I'd like to add a couple more ideas, because what you're describing in your article is spot on, and I believe can be generalized past your own experience.
> Another angle that makes this ever more distressing is that my memory is very, very fallible ... I can confidently say that I've done nothing I said I would do there.”
Herbert Simon says: “In an information-rich world, the wealth of information means a dearth of something else: a scarcity of whatever it is that information consumes. What information consumes is rather obvious: it consumes the attention of its recipients. Hence, a wealth of information creates a poverty of attention”.
As an information-addict myself, I've been meditating a lot about this topic. During the past two years I've been researching it from a psychological perspective (And for that, I'm grateful to @ericd for this HN comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24581016). I'll throw in some resources that I've came across during this journey, in case anyone finds them useful:
- Dr Gabor Mate: Addiction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-APGWvYupU
- Dr. Anna Lembke: Understanding & Treating Addiction | Huberman Lab Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3JLaF_4Tz8
- The book “The Molecule of More” by by Daniel Z. Lieberman and Michael E. Long.
- The book “The Shallows” by Nicholas Carr.
It should also be mentioned that the most addictive and dopaminergic drugs most people in the Anglosphere consume daily are the wide variety of pre-made pre-cooked fast food meals which are engineered for maximum palatability. These days this goes for just about everything that isn't bought in the grocery store in its purest form. Just about every product on the shelves these days is contaminated with engineered ingredients to get you a stronger feeling of reward so you come back for more.
“Talk to me about taste, and if this stuff tastes better, don’t run around trying to sell stuff that doesn’t taste good.” - Stephen Sanger, head of General Mills
You can search the web using that quote to begin your descent into the rabbit hole.
The food you eat does not just affect your body weight. It also affects your mental state.
“Talk to me about taste, and if this stuff tastes better, don’t run around trying to sell stuff that doesn’t taste good.” - Stephen Sanger, head of General Mills
You can search the web using that quote to begin your descent into the rabbit hole.
The food you eat does not just affect your body weight. It also affects your mental state.
Are you very familiar with ADHD? It's very much the same effect, except instead of substance abuse/addiction as the cause, it's a natural chronic deficit in stimulation.
I find this YouTube channel very informative (albeit cheesy): https://m.youtube.com/c/HowtoADHD
I find this YouTube channel very informative (albeit cheesy): https://m.youtube.com/c/HowtoADHD
> Are you very familiar with ADHD?
Not really. But I'll check this, thanks!
Not really. But I'll check this, thanks!
Also from Huberman: "Controlling Your Dopamine For Motivation, Focus & Satisfaction" [1]
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmOF0crdyRU
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmOF0crdyRU
I've read The Molecule of More and didn't consider it all too great of a read.
There were some correlations that didn't sit well with me - one, off the top of my head, was an implication that MDMA consumption could make me politically conservative.
I personally would recommend just Huberman as he covers Dopamine to a great extent.
There were some correlations that didn't sit well with me - one, off the top of my head, was an implication that MDMA consumption could make me politically conservative.
I personally would recommend just Huberman as he covers Dopamine to a great extent.
Hi guys OP here. I abstained all day (yay!) until I was going to bed :( I've read through most comments here and want to clarify a few things
1. I tried to get diagnosed with adhd but my doc just prescribed me some meds (amphetamines I think). They seemed like they would work until the effect wore off and I stopped taking them.
2. I have never abused any drug in the past.
3. I know this is a non issue for a lot of you guys and rightly so. I know I'm well off compared to a lot of real drug addicts.
4. I'm kinda depressed I think?
After a day of reflecting, speaking to my grandparents, spending time in a ceremony with my parents, and at the end of the day compulsively opening hn (I didn't expect this post to have any comments, addiction just took over), I can say a few things (before forgetting them!).
Firstly, I had a lot of time on my hands today and spending it on personal relations has been good. And secondly staying away from my room in general is positive. Being alone in my room is almost certainly a negative. I want to practice programming and do projects before my masters so I don't know how Ill deal with it. I'll reply to other comments once I wake up. Its almost 2am now!
Thanks for all the comments and advice!
1. I tried to get diagnosed with adhd but my doc just prescribed me some meds (amphetamines I think). They seemed like they would work until the effect wore off and I stopped taking them.
2. I have never abused any drug in the past.
3. I know this is a non issue for a lot of you guys and rightly so. I know I'm well off compared to a lot of real drug addicts.
4. I'm kinda depressed I think?
After a day of reflecting, speaking to my grandparents, spending time in a ceremony with my parents, and at the end of the day compulsively opening hn (I didn't expect this post to have any comments, addiction just took over), I can say a few things (before forgetting them!).
Firstly, I had a lot of time on my hands today and spending it on personal relations has been good. And secondly staying away from my room in general is positive. Being alone in my room is almost certainly a negative. I want to practice programming and do projects before my masters so I don't know how Ill deal with it. I'll reply to other comments once I wake up. Its almost 2am now!
Thanks for all the comments and advice!
I did two things that greatly helped me.
1) I at least made an attempt at some of Cal Newport's suggestions in "Deep Work" and schedule working blocks for myself. I adopt a different posture, maybe wear different clothes, If you can afford to, get a second cheap laptop and use that only for work... And then go somewhere else physically. Even if it's just a different room.
2) Consider trying a few sessions of neurofeedback therapy. I did it in high school and really felt my ability to concentrate and think along a single track improve significantly. I can't guarantee anything but it's worth looking into.
1) I at least made an attempt at some of Cal Newport's suggestions in "Deep Work" and schedule working blocks for myself. I adopt a different posture, maybe wear different clothes, If you can afford to, get a second cheap laptop and use that only for work... And then go somewhere else physically. Even if it's just a different room.
2) Consider trying a few sessions of neurofeedback therapy. I did it in high school and really felt my ability to concentrate and think along a single track improve significantly. I can't guarantee anything but it's worth looking into.
Family, friends, community, church.
Here's what worked for me.
1. Ask yourself why do you think this is a problem and debug deeply. Maybe, after all, spending day watching videos is fine and what you want to do and the story that you don't is unnecessary.
2. Once you bring it to your conscious mind, you face a decision, do I want to watch videos and maybe learn something and relax, given that it comes with not delivering some things I promised and doing the thing I've been thinking I need to do for a long time, or do I want to do e.g. that thing.
3. Then do what you want. It requires no effort. You do what you want. I know habits and dopamine addiction narration, but there is no substance dependence here and the trick is that we cannot really hold contradicting beliefs in our conscious mind (we have plenty of them in the background but once you collide them actively you usually end up creating some micro-rationalization). But here your focus is consciously facing the choice. Plus there's plenty of dopamine for something that's been on todo for a long time.
1. Ask yourself why do you think this is a problem and debug deeply. Maybe, after all, spending day watching videos is fine and what you want to do and the story that you don't is unnecessary.
2. Once you bring it to your conscious mind, you face a decision, do I want to watch videos and maybe learn something and relax, given that it comes with not delivering some things I promised and doing the thing I've been thinking I need to do for a long time, or do I want to do e.g. that thing.
3. Then do what you want. It requires no effort. You do what you want. I know habits and dopamine addiction narration, but there is no substance dependence here and the trick is that we cannot really hold contradicting beliefs in our conscious mind (we have plenty of them in the background but once you collide them actively you usually end up creating some micro-rationalization). But here your focus is consciously facing the choice. Plus there's plenty of dopamine for something that's been on todo for a long time.
I think we have completely different brains. What you said hits me like someone telling me to "be happy" when I'm depressed. It's not a matter of rationalization.
I am jealous this works for you. Life would be so much easier if my intrinsic motivation was well-aligned with my rational thinking.
I am jealous this works for you. Life would be so much easier if my intrinsic motivation was well-aligned with my rational thinking.
If that's your experience most of the time, you might have ADHD. Here's a good (chest yet informative) introduction to the subject: https://m.youtube.com/c/HowtoADHD
I suspect they are not that different. Rationalization doesn't work, it's what creates "I should be doing X instead" in the first place.
I don't know if it can help you in whatever you want to achieve, but to me just realization that I always do what I want was huge. You can't honestly tell yourself you want to be doing this right now and that you don't want to be doing it right now. Once you unpack what does that mean in your head that you want it (requirements, consequences), whatever that means, you find some contradiction. But it took me some practice to be honest with myself and eliminating wishful thinking.
Accepting reality as it is, is huge. When you have in your head that if you spend time doing A you can't be doing B during this time, or that you can't achieve goal without going through steps you think are necessary, there really is not much left to do. Whatever you choose is fine, it's what you want.
E.g. I used to be thinking "I don't want to clean the kitchen, I have more interesting ideas for my life". Right now, it's a simple choice - don't clean the kitchen and have it dirty or clean it and have it cleaned up. Both are fine. Debugging gets complex when you have other people involved in your life etc but it still drops to the same thing.
Life's too short for telling yourself that you don't want to be doing what you are doing.[1]
If you take it deep enough, with our current understanding of the universe, there is no objective argument that working on renewable energy is better than watching youtube all day.
OK, I'm quitting this topic on HN, I've been selling this idea in many of my comments lately, just because it made my life so much better, but it's too verbose.
Btw if somebody knows this kind of thinking from a different source I would appreciate some pointers, because I'm sure I'm not the first one to come up with this but I haven't stumbled upon it yet and I would much prefer to point people to that direction.
1. And just to be clear I'm not ignoring very difficult situations that people are in saying that people are always doing what they want. The situation is difficult, whether that's hunger, war, illness or death. But that's reality. Given that terrible situation you decide to do something (or do nothing). It's what you decide, it's what you want. Telling yourself that you want to do something else that's not possible in that salutation is just wishful thinking. Wishful thinking is pure suffering. I strongly suggest stopping whatever you're doing if you think you don't want to be doing it and either stop doing that or fix the contradiction in your head.
No more verbose life views from comboy.
I don't know if it can help you in whatever you want to achieve, but to me just realization that I always do what I want was huge. You can't honestly tell yourself you want to be doing this right now and that you don't want to be doing it right now. Once you unpack what does that mean in your head that you want it (requirements, consequences), whatever that means, you find some contradiction. But it took me some practice to be honest with myself and eliminating wishful thinking.
Accepting reality as it is, is huge. When you have in your head that if you spend time doing A you can't be doing B during this time, or that you can't achieve goal without going through steps you think are necessary, there really is not much left to do. Whatever you choose is fine, it's what you want.
E.g. I used to be thinking "I don't want to clean the kitchen, I have more interesting ideas for my life". Right now, it's a simple choice - don't clean the kitchen and have it dirty or clean it and have it cleaned up. Both are fine. Debugging gets complex when you have other people involved in your life etc but it still drops to the same thing.
Life's too short for telling yourself that you don't want to be doing what you are doing.[1]
If you take it deep enough, with our current understanding of the universe, there is no objective argument that working on renewable energy is better than watching youtube all day.
OK, I'm quitting this topic on HN, I've been selling this idea in many of my comments lately, just because it made my life so much better, but it's too verbose.
Btw if somebody knows this kind of thinking from a different source I would appreciate some pointers, because I'm sure I'm not the first one to come up with this but I haven't stumbled upon it yet and I would much prefer to point people to that direction.
1. And just to be clear I'm not ignoring very difficult situations that people are in saying that people are always doing what they want. The situation is difficult, whether that's hunger, war, illness or death. But that's reality. Given that terrible situation you decide to do something (or do nothing). It's what you decide, it's what you want. Telling yourself that you want to do something else that's not possible in that salutation is just wishful thinking. Wishful thinking is pure suffering. I strongly suggest stopping whatever you're doing if you think you don't want to be doing it and either stop doing that or fix the contradiction in your head.
No more verbose life views from comboy.
> Btw if somebody knows this kind of thinking from a different source I would appreciate some pointers, because I'm sure I'm not the first one to come up with this but I haven't stumbled upon it yet and I would much prefer to point people to that direction.
I just finished the book Four Thousand Weeks: Time management for mortals. Similar thinking in that a lot of suffering and procrastination is caused by not accepting the reality of our finite time on earth, that we can never do it all, and we have to make tough choices and most people try avoid the anxiety of facing those by distracting themselves. I loved the book, and your comment, as refreshing take on “productivity” but I recognize it’s also extremely difficult for many people to practice.
I just finished the book Four Thousand Weeks: Time management for mortals. Similar thinking in that a lot of suffering and procrastination is caused by not accepting the reality of our finite time on earth, that we can never do it all, and we have to make tough choices and most people try avoid the anxiety of facing those by distracting themselves. I loved the book, and your comment, as refreshing take on “productivity” but I recognize it’s also extremely difficult for many people to practice.
The broadest definition of addiction I've heard is "When you do something compulsively enough that it's affecting the rest of your life" - the implication being that everyone compulsively do things and that's fine but it's only really a problem when it damages your relationships, careers, happiness, etc. All brain stuff has a chemical component but chemical dependency/addiction is a particuarly dangerous subset of addiction, and not necessarily what I'm talking about here.
Many people here have the super power to focus on a problem relentlessly, it's kind of the trademark of the nerd stereotype - Addiction is the dark side of that superpower and one that I have to constantly keep in check. But I don't want to kill that superpower by squashing whatever thing I'm deep into at the moment, so I always use the litmus test - "Is this affecting the ability to keep my life in order?"
As long as there isn't a strong chemical component to whatever addiction you're trying to purge, a book like "Power of Habit" by Charles Duhigg has a lot of practical ways to adjust your unconscious compulsions.
Many people here have the super power to focus on a problem relentlessly, it's kind of the trademark of the nerd stereotype - Addiction is the dark side of that superpower and one that I have to constantly keep in check. But I don't want to kill that superpower by squashing whatever thing I'm deep into at the moment, so I always use the litmus test - "Is this affecting the ability to keep my life in order?"
As long as there isn't a strong chemical component to whatever addiction you're trying to purge, a book like "Power of Habit" by Charles Duhigg has a lot of practical ways to adjust your unconscious compulsions.
That "superpower" you mentioned is a good description of ADHD hyperfocus.
People with ADHD are naturally at a constant deficit in stimulation/dopamine. That's why we get distracted mid-conversation: the conversation wasn't stimulating enough to fill that deficit, so the brain started looking for more stimulation, thinking it could just multitask to compensate.
The deficit in simulation/dopamine is why people with ADHD can hyperfocus: as soon as there is a satisfying source of stimulation, the brain tries to squeeze out as much dopamine as it can.
People with ADHD are naturally at a constant deficit in stimulation/dopamine. That's why we get distracted mid-conversation: the conversation wasn't stimulating enough to fill that deficit, so the brain started looking for more stimulation, thinking it could just multitask to compensate.
The deficit in simulation/dopamine is why people with ADHD can hyperfocus: as soon as there is a satisfying source of stimulation, the brain tries to squeeze out as much dopamine as it can.
"When you do something compulsively enough that it's affecting the rest of your life"
Similar to what I was told: "When you compulsively do something despite it having negative impacts on your life"
Similar to what I was told: "When you compulsively do something despite it having negative impacts on your life"
Yeah this is better actually, because "affecting" might be a positive thing :)
But I like framing it this way because if you only think about compulsion you're going to waste a lot of time shutting down things that don't actually matter. We're creatures of habit - we've gotten this far BECAUSE of compulsion, not in spite of it.
But I like framing it this way because if you only think about compulsion you're going to waste a lot of time shutting down things that don't actually matter. We're creatures of habit - we've gotten this far BECAUSE of compulsion, not in spite of it.
Quietly turning back on the noprocrast hacker news setting
Getting out of Facebook or before watching TV was rather easy, it was mostly uninteresting stuff I did not choose to watch.
Youtube and Hacker News got me. The quality, sometimes life-changing, content I have had access to there is really hard not to get into. Augmenting friction in accessing the content in the only way I found that works when I succeed convincing myself it is a real problem. This way it tilts the tediousness of accessing them towards the tediousness of boring tasks, which I have learned to find ways to make less tedious in turn. Trying to find balance in the addiction. Restraining from it in order to give time to interesting content to bubble up.
Also I have also been distancing so much from social activities only because they were slightly dissatisfying but instead of working on fixing them (which feels to me impossible because I lack the communication skills and I have an irrational core belief that no one can withstand even slight criticism) I'd rather spend time reading/watching about stuff that interests me on the internet. I manage to keep my life in order but I am not really investing in making something out of it. All the things I'd like to do irl, build a ecological passive house, build low tech devices, I lack the economical resources and social bonds to even start even though I am competent.
I don't know if I was always was a nerd (not the brilliant nerd type) or if I became one. Anyways I am doomed until this really becomes a hard problem in my life.
Getting out of Facebook or before watching TV was rather easy, it was mostly uninteresting stuff I did not choose to watch.
Youtube and Hacker News got me. The quality, sometimes life-changing, content I have had access to there is really hard not to get into. Augmenting friction in accessing the content in the only way I found that works when I succeed convincing myself it is a real problem. This way it tilts the tediousness of accessing them towards the tediousness of boring tasks, which I have learned to find ways to make less tedious in turn. Trying to find balance in the addiction. Restraining from it in order to give time to interesting content to bubble up.
Also I have also been distancing so much from social activities only because they were slightly dissatisfying but instead of working on fixing them (which feels to me impossible because I lack the communication skills and I have an irrational core belief that no one can withstand even slight criticism) I'd rather spend time reading/watching about stuff that interests me on the internet. I manage to keep my life in order but I am not really investing in making something out of it. All the things I'd like to do irl, build a ecological passive house, build low tech devices, I lack the economical resources and social bonds to even start even though I am competent.
I don't know if I was always was a nerd (not the brilliant nerd type) or if I became one. Anyways I am doomed until this really becomes a hard problem in my life.
I used to be like this. I solved it by making my default activity reading (anything, stop if you don't enjoy it, novels are great) and working out. Just getting a week or month break is sometimes enough to break the habit (but best to do it in a way doesn't feel like an endurance challenge - that replaces it with something else fun or stimulating).
I can relate too. Throw in video games and beer too for good measure.
For me there was no big Aha moment or solution to getting distracted from what I actually want to do. It had been incremental steps, such as:
- focusing on consuming long form reading/videos
- heavily curating consumption with RSS, individual settings etc.
- disabling notifications of anything that is not important
- taking responsibility of things that I could avoid, engaging more
- regular exercise and sleep
Things like that. But again, incremental steps. Sometimes I shifted from one distraction to the next, but after recognizing this it becomes clearer what’s happening.
The results are quite powerful. Over just a couple of years I gained so much. I started to get bored of things that would distract me otherwise. I gained confidence and especially courage. I recognize undesirable behavior really quickly now and stopped fooling myself.
For me there was no big Aha moment or solution to getting distracted from what I actually want to do. It had been incremental steps, such as:
- focusing on consuming long form reading/videos
- heavily curating consumption with RSS, individual settings etc.
- disabling notifications of anything that is not important
- taking responsibility of things that I could avoid, engaging more
- regular exercise and sleep
Things like that. But again, incremental steps. Sometimes I shifted from one distraction to the next, but after recognizing this it becomes clearer what’s happening.
The results are quite powerful. Over just a couple of years I gained so much. I started to get bored of things that would distract me otherwise. I gained confidence and especially courage. I recognize undesirable behavior really quickly now and stopped fooling myself.
yes, that and go to sleep the moment you get the urge to eat lots of sugars, which usually means your brain needs rest.
I identify myself with many of the things mentioned in this post. I am an addict too. Here is something that has helped me to improve things a little bit. This is of course 100% anecdotal and it might not work on anyone different than me, but here it is anyway:
Initially I also used focus mode and different kinds of blocking apps to try to control my addiction. I configured them to block HN, reddit, lichess, twitter, youtube, etc, allowing me to use them only a few minutes at the end of the day and during the weekends. This approach didn't work so well. It worked fine for a few days but then the abstinence syndrome kicks in and I inevitably ended up "temporarily" disabling the blocks just to get that precious shot of dopamine before starting to work. Additionally, I was still wasting almost all my weekends and holidays consuming garbage.
So I got this idea, what if I tweak the approach a little bit: Instead of blocking the apps during "productive" time, what if I block them during leisure time, i.e at the end of the day and during the weekends. The thing with media consumption addiction is that it leaves me feeling that I don't have time to do anything. I neglect a lot of my personal tasks and goals. Work is something that I have to do somehow, after all I need a salary. Doing apartment chores, reading that book I bought or learning a new skill is something that can always wait. And it's during leisure time that I should be doing those things. So I decided to block media consumption during the weekends and try to do something more meaningful in that time. It's easier to deal with the abstinence syndrome, because the activities can be fun as well, they also produce (more slowly) dopamine, just that they are more meaningful to me. It's easier to skip silly but addictive YouTube videos to work on an interesting programming project than it is to skip it for a boring task at work. And there is also this feeling that it's only for a short time, I can get the dopamine shot later and that somehow tricks my brain. And then on Monday I already feel much better, and without feeling the need to consume that much media.
Initially I also used focus mode and different kinds of blocking apps to try to control my addiction. I configured them to block HN, reddit, lichess, twitter, youtube, etc, allowing me to use them only a few minutes at the end of the day and during the weekends. This approach didn't work so well. It worked fine for a few days but then the abstinence syndrome kicks in and I inevitably ended up "temporarily" disabling the blocks just to get that precious shot of dopamine before starting to work. Additionally, I was still wasting almost all my weekends and holidays consuming garbage.
So I got this idea, what if I tweak the approach a little bit: Instead of blocking the apps during "productive" time, what if I block them during leisure time, i.e at the end of the day and during the weekends. The thing with media consumption addiction is that it leaves me feeling that I don't have time to do anything. I neglect a lot of my personal tasks and goals. Work is something that I have to do somehow, after all I need a salary. Doing apartment chores, reading that book I bought or learning a new skill is something that can always wait. And it's during leisure time that I should be doing those things. So I decided to block media consumption during the weekends and try to do something more meaningful in that time. It's easier to deal with the abstinence syndrome, because the activities can be fun as well, they also produce (more slowly) dopamine, just that they are more meaningful to me. It's easier to skip silly but addictive YouTube videos to work on an interesting programming project than it is to skip it for a boring task at work. And there is also this feeling that it's only for a short time, I can get the dopamine shot later and that somehow tricks my brain. And then on Monday I already feel much better, and without feeling the need to consume that much media.
interesting tip thank you
We're all being sucked in the internet. It's so easy to become addict to video, podcasts, games, etc. nowadays that I would not be surprised if that becomes a major society issue.
I always thought in 20 years, Facebook (or its equivalent) will have warning labels similar to how cigarettes do now. People should be free to do as they please, but I would hope that as a society, we would at least inform people as to what the actual product is designed to do.
You could think of it like the nutrition labels on food. Imagine a pop up when you log onto reddit saying "this site on average engages users for 90-120 minutes per session". That would give you some forethought about how much value you're getting from the engagement and prompt you to make a different decision. Or at least a more informed decision.
You could think of it like the nutrition labels on food. Imagine a pop up when you log onto reddit saying "this site on average engages users for 90-120 minutes per session". That would give you some forethought about how much value you're getting from the engagement and prompt you to make a different decision. Or at least a more informed decision.
Great. Another popup to dismiss!
Someone make this a browser extension!
The problem I have is that some of the content is really good. I have been able to lose weight consistently and easily because I found resources online that helped me understand the science and cut through all the bullshit that we are inundated with around nutrition. My confidence and results in investing are at an all time high because I can fill in the gaps of understanding with a range of experts on YouTube.
But, it does seems like an addiction when I want to accomplish a task and 20 minutes into that task I'm back on YouTube or forums looking for more interesting data.
But, it does seems like an addiction when I want to accomplish a task and 20 minutes into that task I'm back on YouTube or forums looking for more interesting data.
What are your top recommendations for weight loss resources?
There are two parts to weight loss:
1. Physiological: This is relatively easy. The key is to understand how to get an accurate account of incoming calories and an accurate count of outgoing calories. When you have an accurate count of those you can lose weight. Andrew Huberman is really good on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqPGXG5TlZw&ab_channel=Andre...
I say this one is easy because it is very easy to be misinformed about food. For example, someone may have heard that salads or protein bars are low calorie and healthy, but that isn't necessarily true. And once they realize that they can adjust their food intake to account for accidently over eating.
2. Psychological: Generally speaking, a lot of people with drug, alcohol, or food problems are dealing with some sort of stress, anxiety, depression, or childhood trama. Everyone has a limit to their will power. So even if you strengthen your will power if there is another force acting against that will power it will win and you will stress eat or stress drink. Depending on this situation, Therapy, Meditation, life changes, rehab can help.
1. Physiological: This is relatively easy. The key is to understand how to get an accurate account of incoming calories and an accurate count of outgoing calories. When you have an accurate count of those you can lose weight. Andrew Huberman is really good on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqPGXG5TlZw&ab_channel=Andre...
I say this one is easy because it is very easy to be misinformed about food. For example, someone may have heard that salads or protein bars are low calorie and healthy, but that isn't necessarily true. And once they realize that they can adjust their food intake to account for accidently over eating.
2. Psychological: Generally speaking, a lot of people with drug, alcohol, or food problems are dealing with some sort of stress, anxiety, depression, or childhood trama. Everyone has a limit to their will power. So even if you strengthen your will power if there is another force acting against that will power it will win and you will stress eat or stress drink. Depending on this situation, Therapy, Meditation, life changes, rehab can help.
We may just as well call it the InterCage at this point.
Nets are for trapping prey, that part has been completed a long time ago.
Nets are for trapping prey, that part has been completed a long time ago.
Yeah I'm surprised there are lots of articles about keeping ipads from children, but not much about their parents.
There is increasing awareness that addiction and procrastination [1] are not indicative of laziness. Human beings are great at protecting their emotional core because it's essential to basic functioning. Addiction seems similar. Addicts seem to be attempting to escape something too (subjectively) difficult to face [2][3]. In my opinion it's often due to unresolved trauma.
When we don't have the emotional tools to resolve trauma from our past, we resort to coping mechanisms. While I'm not a therapist, I've had to deal with my fair share of trauma and have come to learn a lot about how trauma affects us and the way we deal (or fail to deal) with our day-to-day struggles.
1. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/25/smarter-living/why-you-pr... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park 3. https://nida.nih.gov/about-nida/noras-blog/2018/10/new-nida-...
When we don't have the emotional tools to resolve trauma from our past, we resort to coping mechanisms. While I'm not a therapist, I've had to deal with my fair share of trauma and have come to learn a lot about how trauma affects us and the way we deal (or fail to deal) with our day-to-day struggles.
1. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/25/smarter-living/why-you-pr... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park 3. https://nida.nih.gov/about-nida/noras-blog/2018/10/new-nida-...
I've been thinking more about addiction recently and how it affects us more than most people think. When most people think addiction they think of drugs. So, of course, they are not an addict.
But I believe we all are addicts to some degree and, at the very least, have the potential to become addicted to things.
Things I have been addicted to, in no particular order:
- Alcohol. No I wasn't an "alcoholic", but I continued to drink alcohol even though I knew it made me feel worse the next day etc. This one is very common.
- Cannabis. It turned me into a recluse and perpetuated a downward spiral into depression.
- Food. I became obese and thoroughly unfit due to my eating habits.
- Porn. It affected my real sex life which made me and my partner feel bad.
- Sex. I spent far too much of my time pursuing sex with multiple partners, broke many hearts and burnt many bridges along the way.
- Youtube (and previously TV). I watched it every night in bed and it caused me to have terrible sleep.
I'm not sure why so little attention is given to addiction. Obesity should simply be framed as food addiction. Nobody wants to be obese. It's uncomfortable, inconvenient, embarrassing. They all want to "lose weight". They can't because they are addicted to food. Making that clear would probably help people deal with it. It has certainly helped me in many cases to understand that I'm addicted to something.
But I believe we all are addicts to some degree and, at the very least, have the potential to become addicted to things.
Things I have been addicted to, in no particular order:
- Alcohol. No I wasn't an "alcoholic", but I continued to drink alcohol even though I knew it made me feel worse the next day etc. This one is very common.
- Cannabis. It turned me into a recluse and perpetuated a downward spiral into depression.
- Food. I became obese and thoroughly unfit due to my eating habits.
- Porn. It affected my real sex life which made me and my partner feel bad.
- Sex. I spent far too much of my time pursuing sex with multiple partners, broke many hearts and burnt many bridges along the way.
- Youtube (and previously TV). I watched it every night in bed and it caused me to have terrible sleep.
I'm not sure why so little attention is given to addiction. Obesity should simply be framed as food addiction. Nobody wants to be obese. It's uncomfortable, inconvenient, embarrassing. They all want to "lose weight". They can't because they are addicted to food. Making that clear would probably help people deal with it. It has certainly helped me in many cases to understand that I'm addicted to something.
I read a lot of the advice already on this comment thread but I have a fairly different take based on the path I've weaved through this world so far.
You're in control, the end. Give yourself grace when you find that you've strayed from your target. Classify things into "Crisis" and "Not A Crisis" and set up daily, hourly, etc redirections to knock out whatever falls into the crisis bucket before anything else.
As for me, my path has been from just how the author describes the feeling to fairly functional. Years of anguish, piles of notes on how to act vs actually acting any different. My suggestion to you is to write down a morning routine that redirects you into taking care of what will cause you anguish up front if not taken care of.
I've personally written software for me that literally text-to-voice's reminders and redirections to an earbud my morning routine tells me to put in first thing. Second thing says to enable "repeat mode" so it can chime in with redirections.
If you want something lightweight just on your PC that does the same thing, alter this bash one-liner to your heart's content. It's osx specific but there are other ways / commands to do this on linux or otherwise. I've personally written an android launcher / service that does this so I can have it while I walk around in the world but isn't in a state yet that would work for others. Hopefully this will help keep you on target. :D
while true; do say --rate 230 --voice Daniel "Stay on target"; sleep 18; done;
You're in control, the end. Give yourself grace when you find that you've strayed from your target. Classify things into "Crisis" and "Not A Crisis" and set up daily, hourly, etc redirections to knock out whatever falls into the crisis bucket before anything else.
As for me, my path has been from just how the author describes the feeling to fairly functional. Years of anguish, piles of notes on how to act vs actually acting any different. My suggestion to you is to write down a morning routine that redirects you into taking care of what will cause you anguish up front if not taken care of.
I've personally written software for me that literally text-to-voice's reminders and redirections to an earbud my morning routine tells me to put in first thing. Second thing says to enable "repeat mode" so it can chime in with redirections.
If you want something lightweight just on your PC that does the same thing, alter this bash one-liner to your heart's content. It's osx specific but there are other ways / commands to do this on linux or otherwise. I've personally written an android launcher / service that does this so I can have it while I walk around in the world but isn't in a state yet that would work for others. Hopefully this will help keep you on target. :D
while true; do say --rate 230 --voice Daniel "Stay on target"; sleep 18; done;
This also describes me so accurately I'm embarrassed.
The only solution I've found that isn't an impossible uphill battle against my lizard brain is... Be around people.
I'm not deep in an internet rabbit hole when I'm with another person. It's actually a motivator for me to live with a partner or roommates - they make me a 'better' person.
Maybe they make me ->A person<- rather than a brain hooked up to a doping device.
The only solution I've found that isn't an impossible uphill battle against my lizard brain is... Be around people.
I'm not deep in an internet rabbit hole when I'm with another person. It's actually a motivator for me to live with a partner or roommates - they make me a 'better' person.
Maybe they make me ->A person<- rather than a brain hooked up to a doping device.
There's a lot of good literature and help out there.
I wrote this [1] specifically to help you understand some of what's going on - well, at least some views for those of us who feel passionate about technology but sometimes have unhealthy relationships with it.
You already touch on many of the issues in your post. I have submitted lists of other books here too (search through my history for Cal Newport for example) that deal with tech overuse, addiction, hoarding and so on. Hope it's useful.
[1] https://digitalvegan.net
I wrote this [1] specifically to help you understand some of what's going on - well, at least some views for those of us who feel passionate about technology but sometimes have unhealthy relationships with it.
You already touch on many of the issues in your post. I have submitted lists of other books here too (search through my history for Cal Newport for example) that deal with tech overuse, addiction, hoarding and so on. Hope it's useful.
[1] https://digitalvegan.net
We're in the same boat! But I fell for it, like, 15-20yrs ago. Have been restricting myself since, basically, to the web 1.0 level. I don't have broadband anymore, only limited plan, - this stops me from watching videos. This was a conscious step. After setting up some physical barriers it became easier to change my own mindset (I knew I didn't have such an iron will to begin with). Also, knowledge helps. For example, being concerned with own privacy, security and health, prevents me from using garbage like tiktok or instagram. There's also conventional wisdom which tells me to stop trying to catch on with everything (HN news stream, for example :) ). Although it was necessary for my line of work for quite a while, but in life it brings nothing but sense of miss or loss like "Oh I could've done this/involved with that/joined those projects/used this library/visited that conference/etc.
Sorry if this comment turned into ramblings )
HN is somewhere in the middle of useful and interesting versus distracting and repetitive. It’s valuable enough for me to keep track of. I’ve noticed that I like it more through RSS. Because I don’t see upvotes and comment counts there.
Consider talking to a doctor about ADD? (Alternatively, get some Adderall somewhere and experiment.) Executive control is a distinct mental capability.
This. Even with all the addictive technologies around, this essay makes problems sound too extreme to not be at least worth evaluating for ADD. Especially the consistently poor working memory is a dead giveaway.
People forget AD(H)D is fairly common, regardless of if you think it's overdiagnosed or not. And with how technology has been turning everything into dopamine slot machines it will exaggerate the symptoms even more.
People forget AD(H)D is fairly common, regardless of if you think it's overdiagnosed or not. And with how technology has been turning everything into dopamine slot machines it will exaggerate the symptoms even more.
Please don't ever again recommend to someone with problems randomly that they should "get some amphetamine somewhere and experiment". Okay?
Eh, as I understand it this (Adderall "abuse") is fairly common and mostly doesn't have bad consequences.
Note that inability to concentrate reliably has fairly severe downsides as well, like (at the extremes) inability to hold a job. This is not good for your medical situation either!
Depending on person, "ask a roomie to try their meds" can be a lot more viable than "go and talk to a medical professional." And it comes with a safety valve - your roomie will presumably cut you off if you get problems. Plus the dosage will be predictable and there won't be random additions. Note that I didn't say to go try meth.
(Google "death by adderall". It's not hard to avoid.)
Of course if there's medical contraindications like blood pressure or heart conditions this is a bad idea, but first of all the side effect profile is pretty mild, and second if you have a medical condition you should already know to not take meds on the basis of random HNews recommendations. - Actually, they should know their preferred risk profile anyway. I'm just reminding them that the option exists.
Note that inability to concentrate reliably has fairly severe downsides as well, like (at the extremes) inability to hold a job. This is not good for your medical situation either!
Depending on person, "ask a roomie to try their meds" can be a lot more viable than "go and talk to a medical professional." And it comes with a safety valve - your roomie will presumably cut you off if you get problems. Plus the dosage will be predictable and there won't be random additions. Note that I didn't say to go try meth.
(Google "death by adderall". It's not hard to avoid.)
Of course if there's medical contraindications like blood pressure or heart conditions this is a bad idea, but first of all the side effect profile is pretty mild, and second if you have a medical condition you should already know to not take meds on the basis of random HNews recommendations. - Actually, they should know their preferred risk profile anyway. I'm just reminding them that the option exists.
This.
I’m a recovered amphetamine (Adderall) addict. I was enslaved to amphetamines for over 10 years. I started taking pills in college because they helped me focus and get things done, but I quickly fell into addiction and abuse.
Talked my psychiatrist into giving me ever higher doses. Frequently stole my wife’s ADHD medication after burning through all of my own. I couldn’t stop.
It all started (somewhat) innocently enough…
Yes it’s capable of giving you super powers at work, but it’s also really quite dangerous from an addiction standpoint.
I’m a recovered amphetamine (Adderall) addict. I was enslaved to amphetamines for over 10 years. I started taking pills in college because they helped me focus and get things done, but I quickly fell into addiction and abuse.
Talked my psychiatrist into giving me ever higher doses. Frequently stole my wife’s ADHD medication after burning through all of my own. I couldn’t stop.
It all started (somewhat) innocently enough…
Yes it’s capable of giving you super powers at work, but it’s also really quite dangerous from an addiction standpoint.
I wonder how often that happens.
Could you elaborate on why you increased your dose? Was there a loss of effectiveness?
Could you elaborate on why you increased your dose? Was there a loss of effectiveness?
I think for me I just really liked the way it made me feel.
I started taking ADHD medication during a time in my life where I was exploring and challenging boundaries. I had been a good rule following kid until college. In college I started experimenting with drugs in general. So naturally I wanted to experiment with taking more to see what it would be like.
I didn’t realize by chasing the high provided by Adderall that I would become addicted. Sounds dumb when I write it out like that…
I started taking ADHD medication during a time in my life where I was exploring and challenging boundaries. I had been a good rule following kid until college. In college I started experimenting with drugs in general. So naturally I wanted to experiment with taking more to see what it would be like.
I didn’t realize by chasing the high provided by Adderall that I would become addicted. Sounds dumb when I write it out like that…
What do you mean, these pills that make my kids suddenly have A grades and fun to hang out with are not risk free??
Agreed, though mostly because of external consequences like the war on drugs.
Even so, the rest of the advice is solid.
Even so, the rest of the advice is solid.
why, sounds like a great idea.
Maybe but it seems too common - does nearly everyone have ADD?
Nearly everyone is not a part of this conversation.
Technology - especially software - attracts people with ADHD traits like hyperfocus, so it's not a stretch to expect a higher percentage of ADHD brains on HN.
On top of that, "arguing with people on the internet" is an attractive source of stimulation for those of us with ADHD, meaning we will overrepresent ourselves in any discussion.
Technology - especially software - attracts people with ADHD traits like hyperfocus, so it's not a stretch to expect a higher percentage of ADHD brains on HN.
On top of that, "arguing with people on the internet" is an attractive source of stimulation for those of us with ADHD, meaning we will overrepresent ourselves in any discussion.
No. But, it feels like people seem to only be able to name a single condition. ADHD gets misapplied frequently. I only scanned the original article, but it was really evident that the individual has a complex situation deserving more than self-help.
To underline this point. There are almost weekly threads here which either either start with a mention of "ADHD", or someone posting a comment on "ADHD" along with how they manage it with self-help books. It is hard to find the right professional help, but it's something worth doing because it's probably the only thing that will solve the problems. We should encourage people to seek that help instead of only pointing to self-help articles.
To underline this point. There are almost weekly threads here which either either start with a mention of "ADHD", or someone posting a comment on "ADHD" along with how they manage it with self-help books. It is hard to find the right professional help, but it's something worth doing because it's probably the only thing that will solve the problems. We should encourage people to seek that help instead of only pointing to self-help articles.
The visible symptoms of ADHD (ADD is no longer a separate thing) are things normal people experience all the time.
ADHD is very poorly named. It has similar symptoms at times but it is categorically different because they come from severely compromised self-regulation across many facets. Emotional control, memory, focus, sensory processing, etc.
Many people with ADHD find ways to work around this by finding ways to create a structure they can work in. This contributes to the belief that ADHD can be solved by diligent, disciplined work. Especially because discipline is the solution to normal people’s issues with attention.
But the reality is ADHD not a lack of discipline, but the inability to have it in the first place. Some people manage, but many can’t and other people make moral judgements that anyone with ADHD isn’t trying hard enough.
Edit: I said this more clearly elsewhere:
The symptoms are not the disorder and don't come from the same mechanism that causes normal people to have difficultly paying attention sometimes.
ADHD is very poorly named. It has similar symptoms at times but it is categorically different because they come from severely compromised self-regulation across many facets. Emotional control, memory, focus, sensory processing, etc.
Many people with ADHD find ways to work around this by finding ways to create a structure they can work in. This contributes to the belief that ADHD can be solved by diligent, disciplined work. Especially because discipline is the solution to normal people’s issues with attention.
But the reality is ADHD not a lack of discipline, but the inability to have it in the first place. Some people manage, but many can’t and other people make moral judgements that anyone with ADHD isn’t trying hard enough.
Edit: I said this more clearly elsewhere:
The symptoms are not the disorder and don't come from the same mechanism that causes normal people to have difficultly paying attention sometimes.
For youtube specifically, I found this great snippet for ublock origin. It removes (almost) all recommendations in youtube, which makes it much easier to quit after just one video:
www.youtube.com###secondary
www.youtube.com##ytd-browse[page-subtype="home"] #primary
www.youtube.com##.ytp-show-tiles.ytp-endscreen-paginate.videowall-endscreen.ytp-player-content.html5-endscreen
Source: https://pawelurbanek.com/youtube-addiction-selfcontrol
www.youtube.com###secondary
www.youtube.com##ytd-browse[page-subtype="home"] #primary
www.youtube.com##.ytp-show-tiles.ytp-endscreen-paginate.videowall-endscreen.ytp-player-content.html5-endscreen
Source: https://pawelurbanek.com/youtube-addiction-selfcontrol
The firefox/chrome extension Unhook provides these features as well, and gives you fine-grained controls over most of the addictive features on YouTube.
Second this. Even if you don't remove the other features, removing the comments alone is a godsend.
I'm not an addict, but I'm addict adjacent, literally and metaphorically. While it's good that the poster identified the problem, the cold turkey approach is not usually sufficient. Beating addiction by simply removing the thing you are addicted to is very difficult because it leaves a big hole in your life. You need to replace your addiction with something healthy. Andreas did very effectively because he found something that both occupied his time and gave him a new community.
Andreas Kling who created Serenity OS if anyone was wondering. He's been an inspiration to me for sure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SerenityOS
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SerenityOS
For years I've tried to explain to people that working in tech, especially over time, is like having a job as a beer taster while living above a bar and hanging out with your drinking buddies all evening at that same bar, where an attractive bartender puts cocktails in front of you all night for free, all while trying not to become an alcoholic.
Any addict who said their plan for sobering up was to live like this would be told they are going to fail with 100% certainty.
Any addict who said their plan for sobering up was to live like this would be told they are going to fail with 100% certainty.
I agree, sometimes I feel like I should become an electrician. When I have to do manual work, I do manual work. When I have to code...it can go in many directions.
Very well written article. Congrats on defeating your tech addiction this time.
It is amazing how much thought and effort goes into designing Web2.0 to keep delivering small dopamine hits. I too burn thru hours watching tech videos, browsing tech subreddits, looking for juicy HN posts and rarely come across articles about how the stickiness is engineered. Maybe I'm browsing the wrong stuff or maybe they're just too embarrassed to publish it.
It is amazing how much thought and effort goes into designing Web2.0 to keep delivering small dopamine hits. I too burn thru hours watching tech videos, browsing tech subreddits, looking for juicy HN posts and rarely come across articles about how the stickiness is engineered. Maybe I'm browsing the wrong stuff or maybe they're just too embarrassed to publish it.
I wrote a dealio a bit back which was pretty popular here on reducing addiction to the internet by diluting it via latency, like it's harder to get addicted to small beer than to liquor. People thought when they were voting for prohibition a century ago that they were voting for banning liquor and leaving beer alone: I tend to think _that_ idea wasn't so incredibly bad, actually
https://howonlee.github.io/2020/02/12/I-20Add-2020-20Seconds...
I've been annoyed for a good while that online videos seem to be pretty resistant because of their variable lengths to the per-request futzing I've been doing. I probably need to get a pihole and inject latency at network level on streaming stuff, too, but this is pretty complicated and I have flatmates
https://howonlee.github.io/2020/02/12/I-20Add-2020-20Seconds...
I've been annoyed for a good while that online videos seem to be pretty resistant because of their variable lengths to the per-request futzing I've been doing. I probably need to get a pihole and inject latency at network level on streaming stuff, too, but this is pretty complicated and I have flatmates
Personally I've found that trying to limit hours spent on $badthing is not as effective as requiring hours spent on $goodthing. (Note that "good" here is shorthand for whatever you find to be more rewarding in the long term, not a universal or moral concept.) For example, instead of saying I will spend no more than X hours on social media or video games, I say that I will spend no less than Y hours on exercise or craft hobbies. The key is to center the good things and fit the bad things around those, instead of the other way around. Make a schedule if you have to. Some people find that making a commitment to other people - e.g. a workout buddy, a craft guild - can help. Start small, with goals that are easier to achieve (though they'll still require some exercise of will). As your self-discipline improves, you can change the balance accordingly.
Hello fellow addict!
Other than just blanket banning stuff (which never works for me), I've tried to make reducing my technical consumption into something interesting. Listening to podcasts on an iPod adds friction, as does writing on an old Psion device. I bullet journal too, it's a maintainable balance right now. Even reading books, any book, nothing technical or what I "should be learning" if I'm not up for it. They're all a nice experience, with (for me) just enough tech involved for it to be sustainable and fun. I've failed too many times to just ban stuff or "not look at a screen".
I love the outdoors when I'm out there, but when someone suggests to just go outside instead of watching a video or playing a game, I just feel guilt and resent the outdoors a little more. Old tech has been a nice, interesting bridge.
Other than just blanket banning stuff (which never works for me), I've tried to make reducing my technical consumption into something interesting. Listening to podcasts on an iPod adds friction, as does writing on an old Psion device. I bullet journal too, it's a maintainable balance right now. Even reading books, any book, nothing technical or what I "should be learning" if I'm not up for it. They're all a nice experience, with (for me) just enough tech involved for it to be sustainable and fun. I've failed too many times to just ban stuff or "not look at a screen".
I love the outdoors when I'm out there, but when someone suggests to just go outside instead of watching a video or playing a game, I just feel guilt and resent the outdoors a little more. Old tech has been a nice, interesting bridge.
I gamed a lot (I think 6-8h per day) but little more than a month ago I just stopped. Funny thing is my life didn't change. I'm still not any more creative or achieving anything. I just watch more youtube, 9gag and other random sites. I watch some TV series. I just replaced one filler with another. If I ban those I probably move to reading SF books and doing Sudoku or Solitaire or buying and putting together Lego's.
Your habits are not the problem by themselves. The problem is that your body and mind believes you have nothing better to do. Even though you can reason that there are other things worth doing your emotional self just doesn't buy it.
Your habits are not the problem by themselves. The problem is that your body and mind believes you have nothing better to do. Even though you can reason that there are other things worth doing your emotional self just doesn't buy it.
I feel the pain of internet vices.
What worked for me recently (for the last 4 months only - so can't claim victory yet) was exercise and a goal (so I don't bail). Decided to run a half marathon. Found a training plan where I run 5 days a week.
- Now I have to get up at 7am (Before: 8.55am for 9am start) - If I don't get to bed by 11:30pm I feel lousy running (Before: 2-4am bedtime) - And it makes me shower and eat breakfast (Before: no shower, no food)
It's basically added a bunch of structure to my day, which has really helped with work
What worked for me recently (for the last 4 months only - so can't claim victory yet) was exercise and a goal (so I don't bail). Decided to run a half marathon. Found a training plan where I run 5 days a week.
- Now I have to get up at 7am (Before: 8.55am for 9am start) - If I don't get to bed by 11:30pm I feel lousy running (Before: 2-4am bedtime) - And it makes me shower and eat breakfast (Before: no shower, no food)
It's basically added a bunch of structure to my day, which has really helped with work
It seems like the OP had/has an addiction to gaming videos (the only hint was something about esports). I think about this a lot... is all video content considered equal if you had a near addiction level affinity for it?
Watching Fortnite/Minecraft/Roblox videos all night is a zero sum activity... you might get better at the that particular game, but it's a useless skill for 99.999% of us (child labor issues aside). On the other hand, if you use that time learning an actual skill or absorbing general useful information, I think there might be an argument that it's time well spent.
When we are young, we have an incredible ability to grind on things, especially when sleep deprived. As we get older, that becomes much harder and our productivity inevitably falls. I'm finding more and more that I have to go with my bursts of motivation when it hits and ride that wave as far as possible. A little sleep depravation here and there isn't an issue.
All of this falls apart when your life is negatively impacted and you are not adequately managing your health, responsibilities and/or achieving your goals. To sum it up, I don't think an "addiction" to useful information is a bad thing. We live in an unprecedented time of nearly limitless access to information. To have someone not only tell you the information you want to know, but also demonstrate it is game changing. Addictions are bad, but watching Youtube can lead to incredible learning momentum. Achieving that with a balanced life is something I personally strive for.
Watching Fortnite/Minecraft/Roblox videos all night is a zero sum activity... you might get better at the that particular game, but it's a useless skill for 99.999% of us (child labor issues aside). On the other hand, if you use that time learning an actual skill or absorbing general useful information, I think there might be an argument that it's time well spent.
When we are young, we have an incredible ability to grind on things, especially when sleep deprived. As we get older, that becomes much harder and our productivity inevitably falls. I'm finding more and more that I have to go with my bursts of motivation when it hits and ride that wave as far as possible. A little sleep depravation here and there isn't an issue.
All of this falls apart when your life is negatively impacted and you are not adequately managing your health, responsibilities and/or achieving your goals. To sum it up, I don't think an "addiction" to useful information is a bad thing. We live in an unprecedented time of nearly limitless access to information. To have someone not only tell you the information you want to know, but also demonstrate it is game changing. Addictions are bad, but watching Youtube can lead to incredible learning momentum. Achieving that with a balanced life is something I personally strive for.
I watch a lot of YouTube because I like non-fiction content over the fiction on Netflix. I used to like the documentaries on Netflix but they all seem to have a similar formula and sensationalism. I like how-to content which gives me inspiration to take on projects. I could see YouTube becoming an issue for me if I got sucked down a rabbit hole that didn't have any meaningful ends. But for me if consuming YouTube content leads to meaningful ends, it's not an issue.
I suggest an accountability partner. The biggest problem I've had with that is that my partners didn't have it as badly as me, so they didn't understand.
The idea is you check in once a day (10 minutes or so), and just talk about what you've achieved, where you've failed, etc. It can be very effective.
I've done some pretty extreme things in the past, such as hired a "coach" who would hold me financially responsible if I didn't send proof that I got up and walked the dog to the ATM machine by 8 am every morning. (we had complex rules and she had a check made out to charity, ready to send if I didn't achieve what I was supposed to) It was extremely effective while I did it, but only for really measurable things.
I use a timer lock to keep cannabis locked up for a few days at a time, so I don't have to quit it (I think it is good for my creativity as well as for seeing "the big picture" and finding the positive, but it is bad if it is tempting me to use it while I should be working)
If you are interested in getting a group together to do accountability partners, get in touch. (rjbrown at google's mail service)
The idea is you check in once a day (10 minutes or so), and just talk about what you've achieved, where you've failed, etc. It can be very effective.
I've done some pretty extreme things in the past, such as hired a "coach" who would hold me financially responsible if I didn't send proof that I got up and walked the dog to the ATM machine by 8 am every morning. (we had complex rules and she had a check made out to charity, ready to send if I didn't achieve what I was supposed to) It was extremely effective while I did it, but only for really measurable things.
I use a timer lock to keep cannabis locked up for a few days at a time, so I don't have to quit it (I think it is good for my creativity as well as for seeing "the big picture" and finding the positive, but it is bad if it is tempting me to use it while I should be working)
If you are interested in getting a group together to do accountability partners, get in touch. (rjbrown at google's mail service)
I can relate to this.
My understanding is you're addicted to dopamine.
You need a dopamine fast. Just take away all your dopamine sources for a 1 day, or 1 week. And then self reflect on its effects on you.
The repeat it every once in a while or whenever you need it.
1 day a week. Or 1 week per month. Something like that.
You've encouraged me to do the same. I'm very unhappy with my own addiction to youtube and social media. Though its more like 2 hours per day maybe
My understanding is you're addicted to dopamine.
You need a dopamine fast. Just take away all your dopamine sources for a 1 day, or 1 week. And then self reflect on its effects on you.
The repeat it every once in a while or whenever you need it.
1 day a week. Or 1 week per month. Something like that.
You've encouraged me to do the same. I'm very unhappy with my own addiction to youtube and social media. Though its more like 2 hours per day maybe
Did you actually read the OP? The author describes times when they abstained from Reddit/YouTube and going cold turkey.
I have a bit of the same problem. I "solve it" by removing all video recommendations and blanking out the Home page. My YouTube watching is now constrained to the Subscriptions tab! I feel this lets me get the positives from YouTube, and limits my potential for misuse.
I don't use the YouTube app on mobile (instead using Firefox), so I'm able to use UBlock's cosmetic filters to remove the 'dangerous' elements. Recently the filter changed and I got sucked into recommended videos again (with significantly increased watchtime the last month or so). This post made me fix it again!
Also, my phone's Wellbeing settings allows set time restrictions on specific apps. It's a bit too easy to "game", but at least it gives me some feedback on how much time I spend on things.
But honestly, we're only animals: slacking off is a desired trait. We just need to put in some guardrails to avoid overindulgence. Good luck! :-)
I don't use the YouTube app on mobile (instead using Firefox), so I'm able to use UBlock's cosmetic filters to remove the 'dangerous' elements. Recently the filter changed and I got sucked into recommended videos again (with significantly increased watchtime the last month or so). This post made me fix it again!
Also, my phone's Wellbeing settings allows set time restrictions on specific apps. It's a bit too easy to "game", but at least it gives me some feedback on how much time I spend on things.
But honestly, we're only animals: slacking off is a desired trait. We just need to put in some guardrails to avoid overindulgence. Good luck! :-)
Set out a life goal. Think hard about what you can achieve in that time if you weren't watching videos. This is how you win.
I deeply resonate with this article. It's like the author read my mind.
ADHD feels really big and complicated as it lives in my brain, and it's always difficult to grapple with the question of, "Am I really addicted and need help for that, or is it my ADHD and need help for that?"
My best wishes go out to the author. I feel you.
ADHD feels really big and complicated as it lives in my brain, and it's always difficult to grapple with the question of, "Am I really addicted and need help for that, or is it my ADHD and need help for that?"
My best wishes go out to the author. I feel you.
Try the Buddhist meditation technique of Maranasti where you meditate on Death. We live like we are going to live forever and waste a lot of our life doing stuff we would regret doing on our deathbeds. Meditating every morning that you are going to die has profound impact on how you live your life.
Your post tells me you may be suffering from ADHD. Consider reading this book: Delivered from Distraction: Getting the Most Out of Life with Attention Deficit Disorder Paperback – 27 Dec. 2005
by M D Edward M Hallowell M D (Author), John J Ratey (Author)
If it strikes a chord, think of seeing your doctor about this.
If it strikes a chord, think of seeing your doctor about this.
I know cold turkey works for some people, but I’d never recommend it unless it’s truly an emergency (immediate danger of harm) and you have a support system around you to hold you to it.
The truth is, people are obstinate about change and also infinitely adaptable. So, make the changes small so you can get over the hump, and then stick with it ferociously. In 2 weeks it’ll be second nature.
You gotta have something fulfilling in your life away from a screen. Cooking, pets, exercise, relationships, kids. It may seem impossible to get there from where you are, I’d start with exercise. Great thing about exercise is it’s entirely fungible and each incremental increase is good. Start with anything and do it /before/ you do technology. Then don’t worry about it again until tomorrow.
The truth is, people are obstinate about change and also infinitely adaptable. So, make the changes small so you can get over the hump, and then stick with it ferociously. In 2 weeks it’ll be second nature.
You gotta have something fulfilling in your life away from a screen. Cooking, pets, exercise, relationships, kids. It may seem impossible to get there from where you are, I’d start with exercise. Great thing about exercise is it’s entirely fungible and each incremental increase is good. Start with anything and do it /before/ you do technology. Then don’t worry about it again until tomorrow.
I feel for this writer. Whoever you are - you might be struggling but you are also so aware, even when you say you're not, and that's the first step if you do want to change. I imagine there are legions of others going through the same cycles that can continue this blissful mindless existence day after day, but they may eventually look back and wonder what their life was even for.
My two cents - turn inwards for a little while. Fascinate yourself with yourself. Learn everything about yourself. From there you will find a purpose, which I think is what you're lacking so you let others fill up that space.
Meditating can help you separate all these stories you have about yourself from the true you, which is beyond words. Sit in silence and learn what it's telling you.
My two cents - turn inwards for a little while. Fascinate yourself with yourself. Learn everything about yourself. From there you will find a purpose, which I think is what you're lacking so you let others fill up that space.
Meditating can help you separate all these stories you have about yourself from the true you, which is beyond words. Sit in silence and learn what it's telling you.
The paper "Large-Scale Study of Curiosity-Driven Learning"[1]
talks about AI that likes to take actions that yield results that it didn't predict.
The idea is that curiosity is good intrinsic reward function. The problem though is that it can get stuck doing something that is completely unpredictable, like changing the channel on a TV.
I think this explains a lot about human addiction to endless videos as well. Ironically I learned about this from a YouTube video[2].
[1] https://pathak22.github.io/large-scale-curiosity/
[2] https://youtu.be/fzuYEStsQxc
The idea is that curiosity is good intrinsic reward function. The problem though is that it can get stuck doing something that is completely unpredictable, like changing the channel on a TV.
I think this explains a lot about human addiction to endless videos as well. Ironically I learned about this from a YouTube video[2].
[1] https://pathak22.github.io/large-scale-curiosity/
[2] https://youtu.be/fzuYEStsQxc
It could be a symptom of a persistent depression disorder, it is for me.
EDIT: I've been blocked from replying
Because lack of ability to concentrate, lack of motivation, and engaging in repetitive behaviour because it's the only thing that makes you not bored, are all symptoms of it
EDIT: I've been blocked from replying
Because lack of ability to concentrate, lack of motivation, and engaging in repetitive behaviour because it's the only thing that makes you not bored, are all symptoms of it
Could you elaborate a bit on what makes you think that what's it could be ?
There's nothing wrong with being an addict. I prefer hanging out with addicts than with persons without addictions.
Become a Christian! It's a religion of slaves, three Popes were freedmen, it's a religion of slaves! Addicts are slaves!
I will say that despite disbelieving the miracles entirely on scientific grounds, I started going to a Protestant service to develop a work ethic. And it worked!
And the second thing I recommend is getting screened for Attention Deficit Disorder. Find a psych who has it too, like Dr. Matthew Stubblefield in California (show him this post), there's others too. So that will consolidate your addiction into depending on a single substance--under medical supervision--and be sated.
Become a Christian! It's a religion of slaves, three Popes were freedmen, it's a religion of slaves! Addicts are slaves!
I will say that despite disbelieving the miracles entirely on scientific grounds, I started going to a Protestant service to develop a work ethic. And it worked!
And the second thing I recommend is getting screened for Attention Deficit Disorder. Find a psych who has it too, like Dr. Matthew Stubblefield in California (show him this post), there's others too. So that will consolidate your addiction into depending on a single substance--under medical supervision--and be sated.
I used to waste a lot of time (I still do, but less and in a more functional way) sounds cliche, but something that helped me a lot was the book atomic habits, focusing on systems rather than in pure force of will.
Related to this point, it's to make it harder to access your bad habits and easier to access the ones you want to develop.
A DNS blocker it's great for things like this. I even have 2 dual booted systems one with custom DNS restrictions, and another one for play and relax.
I don't think YouTube, games or Netflix it's bad. The key part it's intentionality, schedule and self awareness of why are you doing the thing your doing, and don't fall into autopilot
Related to this point, it's to make it harder to access your bad habits and easier to access the ones you want to develop.
A DNS blocker it's great for things like this. I even have 2 dual booted systems one with custom DNS restrictions, and another one for play and relax.
I don't think YouTube, games or Netflix it's bad. The key part it's intentionality, schedule and self awareness of why are you doing the thing your doing, and don't fall into autopilot
I can totally see how this can derail your life. The algorithms are there to give you videos to keep you watching and the time can really fly by.
You mentioned going cold turkey, I think it's a good idea, but might be hard to implement as all or nothing approaches are prone to relapses.
You can use watchlimits.com if you are interested in setting limits for your watching, but still being able to watch some. For example youtube content is often useful in life, so it's good to have some access to it. Without a tool like this, just watching "one" helpful video could be cause a relapse to a whole evening watching.
You mentioned going cold turkey, I think it's a good idea, but might be hard to implement as all or nothing approaches are prone to relapses.
You can use watchlimits.com if you are interested in setting limits for your watching, but still being able to watch some. For example youtube content is often useful in life, so it's good to have some access to it. Without a tool like this, just watching "one" helpful video could be cause a relapse to a whole evening watching.
Knowing that HN is generally against it, I say it anyway: I recommend religion and religious teachings which address this and many other daily worldly issues perfectly. Christianity and Judaism both have excellent resources. Religious scholars have actually been the best psychologists but are generally dismissed by non-believers.
Edit: for those asking for specific recommendations. It’s always best to find your own path according to the religion of your parents and environment. However, I can suggest that you investigate Mussar and look up some books in English.
“Musar is a path of contemplative practices and exercises that have evolved over the past thousand years to help an individual soul to pinpoint and then to break through the barriers that surround and obstruct the flow of inner light in our lives. Musar is a treasury of techniques and understandings that offers immensely valuable guidance for the journey of our lives.... The goal of Musar practice is to release the light of holiness that lives within the soul. The roots of all of our thoughts and actions can be traced to the depths of the soul, beyond the reach of the light of consciousness, and so the methods Musar provides include meditations, guided contemplations, exercises and chants that are all intended to penetrate down to the darkness of the subconscious, to bring about change right at the root of our nature.“
Edit: for those asking for specific recommendations. It’s always best to find your own path according to the religion of your parents and environment. However, I can suggest that you investigate Mussar and look up some books in English.
“Musar is a path of contemplative practices and exercises that have evolved over the past thousand years to help an individual soul to pinpoint and then to break through the barriers that surround and obstruct the flow of inner light in our lives. Musar is a treasury of techniques and understandings that offers immensely valuable guidance for the journey of our lives.... The goal of Musar practice is to release the light of holiness that lives within the soul. The roots of all of our thoughts and actions can be traced to the depths of the soul, beyond the reach of the light of consciousness, and so the methods Musar provides include meditations, guided contemplations, exercises and chants that are all intended to penetrate down to the darkness of the subconscious, to bring about change right at the root of our nature.“
The problem I have with religion is the focus on "removing the doubt", which I strongly disagree with - doubting a god's existance is a major no-no in most popular religions. And as soon as you remove the doubt ban, you don't really have a religion anymore, but a philosophy.
So I'd personally recommend philosophy to people, instead of religion. Bertrand Russell (also known for his mathematical work) is an excellent place to start.
EDIT: For those who disagree, I'd recommend a Russell's essay "Why I Am Not A Christian" [0]. It is quite short and readable.
https://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html
So I'd personally recommend philosophy to people, instead of religion. Bertrand Russell (also known for his mathematical work) is an excellent place to start.
EDIT: For those who disagree, I'd recommend a Russell's essay "Why I Am Not A Christian" [0]. It is quite short and readable.
https://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html
>recommend philosophy to people, instead of religion
Religion is philosophy, plus ritual and aesthetics. It's the set of philosophies that have survived the ravages of time. It's a set of philosophies that are so useful to live by, that these philosophies have survived through books and rituals for millennia. Or put another way, these philosophies are so incredibly effective, that people are surviving today precisely because they've lived by those philosophies, and the only reason we know of these philosophies is because they are survived by, and helped to survive, the people who've passed and continue to pass them down to others.
There existed philosophies you've never heard of, that are dead, because they died with the people who've followed them. Is it just chance? Is it because the surviving philosophies are better? Who knows. But if you're a betting man, you should bet on those surviving philosophies being actually better, more useful, more conducive to survival.
>the focus on "removing the doubt"
I think this is a focus exclusive to "nu-Christian" Anglosphere denominations, primarily American ones, and their focus is made a spectacle of because: (1) their focus is understandably cringe and the outrage is entertaining (2) the spectacle is used as a tool to de-legitimize religion as a whole, especially Christianity.
Religion is philosophy, plus ritual and aesthetics. It's the set of philosophies that have survived the ravages of time. It's a set of philosophies that are so useful to live by, that these philosophies have survived through books and rituals for millennia. Or put another way, these philosophies are so incredibly effective, that people are surviving today precisely because they've lived by those philosophies, and the only reason we know of these philosophies is because they are survived by, and helped to survive, the people who've passed and continue to pass them down to others.
There existed philosophies you've never heard of, that are dead, because they died with the people who've followed them. Is it just chance? Is it because the surviving philosophies are better? Who knows. But if you're a betting man, you should bet on those surviving philosophies being actually better, more useful, more conducive to survival.
>the focus on "removing the doubt"
I think this is a focus exclusive to "nu-Christian" Anglosphere denominations, primarily American ones, and their focus is made a spectacle of because: (1) their focus is understandably cringe and the outrage is entertaining (2) the spectacle is used as a tool to de-legitimize religion as a whole, especially Christianity.
> There existed philosophies you've never heard of, that are dead, because they died with the people who've followed them. Is it just chance? Is it because the surviving philosophies are better? Who knows. But if you're a betting man, you should bet on those surviving philosophies being actually better, more useful, more conducive to survival.
I get what you're saying but to offer another perspective, informed by the work of Rober Pirsig as presented in his second book 'Lila': I think those religions/philosophies you mention are an organism of their own, with humans as their hardware. Are they really more useful for any given human? (certainly some are not, if we choose a human who's an outlier, a 'black sheep', so to speak) Or ar they useful and more conductive to the survival of the religion/philosophy itself?
I think it's a struggle between intellect (the individual) and culture (religion, country, a political party, etc.).
I get what you're saying but to offer another perspective, informed by the work of Rober Pirsig as presented in his second book 'Lila': I think those religions/philosophies you mention are an organism of their own, with humans as their hardware. Are they really more useful for any given human? (certainly some are not, if we choose a human who's an outlier, a 'black sheep', so to speak) Or ar they useful and more conductive to the survival of the religion/philosophy itself?
I think it's a struggle between intellect (the individual) and culture (religion, country, a political party, etc.).
> There existed philosophies you've never heard of, that are dead, because they died with the people who've followed them. Is it just chance?
Nope. Religion tends to bring people together, often making them much more powerful as a group. But to me, it's just not worth selling out.
> I think this is a focus exclusive to "nu-Christian" Anglosphere denominations
I don't think that is the case. John 14:6 says:
Nope. Religion tends to bring people together, often making them much more powerful as a group. But to me, it's just not worth selling out.
> I think this is a focus exclusive to "nu-Christian" Anglosphere denominations
I don't think that is the case. John 14:6 says:
“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me”
This is pretty disingenuous don't you think? In the same book a few chapters later we read:
> Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.” John 20:24-25
If that's not encouraging engaging with doubt I don't know what is.
> If that's not an effort to restrict doubt, then what is?
I can tell you that 1 + 1 = 2 and you can still doubt me. Just because you doubt me it doesn't make that statement any less true. Also, me stating that fact isn't me restricting doubt, it's just me stating a fact. If Jesus was God, and what He says here is true, He's stating a fact. You can choose to believe or not to believe, or doubt or not to doubt.
> Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.” John 20:24-25
If that's not encouraging engaging with doubt I don't know what is.
> If that's not an effort to restrict doubt, then what is?
I can tell you that 1 + 1 = 2 and you can still doubt me. Just because you doubt me it doesn't make that statement any less true. Also, me stating that fact isn't me restricting doubt, it's just me stating a fact. If Jesus was God, and what He says here is true, He's stating a fact. You can choose to believe or not to believe, or doubt or not to doubt.
But what is ’I’ in this sentence?
Personally I see it a ’truth’ like in scientific truth and personal integrity.
Imagine Jesus as the incarnation of the best possible person. I you where to try to based your actions in a similar way, what would you do?
"No man comes to the Father but by me”:
You won't be the best version of yourself by chasing any other things (fame, money, pleasure, etc)
I too was disgusted by the first degree interpretation (obviously false) but I now discover a second degree reading that explain our human condition and most of our problems.
Look into Peterson Biblical lecture on Youtube if you want to see a psychological way of looking at the bible.
Personally I see it a ’truth’ like in scientific truth and personal integrity.
Imagine Jesus as the incarnation of the best possible person. I you where to try to based your actions in a similar way, what would you do?
"No man comes to the Father but by me”:
You won't be the best version of yourself by chasing any other things (fame, money, pleasure, etc)
I too was disgusted by the first degree interpretation (obviously false) but I now discover a second degree reading that explain our human condition and most of our problems.
Look into Peterson Biblical lecture on Youtube if you want to see a psychological way of looking at the bible.
One thing I dislike about Christianity in particular is how malleable to interpretation it is, making any kind of discussion with a Christian tedious. No matter what part of Bible you try to argue with, a Christian will always be able to say: "But that's not the real meaning! The real meaning is [thing I pulled out of thin air]", rendering your words moot, without actually engaging in your argument at all.
I still can't figure out how to deal with it, which is why I usually refrain from arguing with religious people. Afterall, when it comes to the big questions (like, is there a god), neither one of us can bring anything to the table - it's impossible to know by definition. And since all religious teachings are based on the existence of a god, there is no way to convince anyone of anything without first proving the unprovable. It's like two completely different sets of axioms - of course the conclusions are gonna be different, and the concept of axioms being "right" or "wrong" is meaningless by itself.
I still can't figure out how to deal with it, which is why I usually refrain from arguing with religious people. Afterall, when it comes to the big questions (like, is there a god), neither one of us can bring anything to the table - it's impossible to know by definition. And since all religious teachings are based on the existence of a god, there is no way to convince anyone of anything without first proving the unprovable. It's like two completely different sets of axioms - of course the conclusions are gonna be different, and the concept of axioms being "right" or "wrong" is meaningless by itself.
I see it as a fusion of the campfire stories that humans have told themselves over thousand of years.
The fact that it was written in a book gave it incredible power and have allow our civilisation to exist and science to be developed but also removed much of the evolutions of the stories.
Now that our world change so fast the stories seems very outdated to our modern mind but most of them speak about a deep human conditions and traps we feel into multiple times.
It hard to speak to christians as most see it a first level reading (literally true) but most people are not ready to go into deep analysis of meaning, they need a story to unite them, to show them a way to a good life and so it was for all people 200 years ago.
Without those stories people put other things in its place (false idols) like money, pleasure, diversity and equity, communism, fascism, etc.
To the question is there a God, the God of the bible is a mix of the natural environment (god of wind, god of the sun, etc) and the human civilisation ’thou shall not kill’ if you kill, God will be angry: you are going to have a bad time (at the hands of other humans)
If you have the time, the Peterson lectures gave me a way to understand it that make sense to me (no bearded magician in the sky)
The fact that it was written in a book gave it incredible power and have allow our civilisation to exist and science to be developed but also removed much of the evolutions of the stories.
Now that our world change so fast the stories seems very outdated to our modern mind but most of them speak about a deep human conditions and traps we feel into multiple times.
It hard to speak to christians as most see it a first level reading (literally true) but most people are not ready to go into deep analysis of meaning, they need a story to unite them, to show them a way to a good life and so it was for all people 200 years ago.
Without those stories people put other things in its place (false idols) like money, pleasure, diversity and equity, communism, fascism, etc.
To the question is there a God, the God of the bible is a mix of the natural environment (god of wind, god of the sun, etc) and the human civilisation ’thou shall not kill’ if you kill, God will be angry: you are going to have a bad time (at the hands of other humans)
If you have the time, the Peterson lectures gave me a way to understand it that make sense to me (no bearded magician in the sky)
Interesting perspective. I'll check the lectures out - I have listened to Jordan Peterson before and I like the way he thinks and presents things.
Buddhism encourages doubt (in most lineages). There is a sutta where the Buddha said:
> “You have a right to be confused. This is a confusing situation. Do not take anything on trust merely because it has passed down through tradition, or because your teachers say it, or because your elders have taught you, or because it’s written in some famous scripture. When you have seen it and experienced it for yourself to be right and true, then you can accept it.”
> “You have a right to be confused. This is a confusing situation. Do not take anything on trust merely because it has passed down through tradition, or because your teachers say it, or because your elders have taught you, or because it’s written in some famous scripture. When you have seen it and experienced it for yourself to be right and true, then you can accept it.”
I have had some limited exposure to Buddhism, but I very much like what I've read. Buddhism seems to focus more on human-as-is and making peace with existence, instead of human-as-should-be and making war with existence, as, for example, Christianity does - by the cardinal sin, the human is sinful through its very existence.
The cardinal sin represent the awakening of the human mind, we no longer live in the moment, we can imagine the future and that make us powerful but also miserable (we can suffer from problems we imagine in the future)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ifi5KkXig3s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ifi5KkXig3s
There is an interpretation that disagrees with what I said, I know. Whatever I say, there will be an interpretation out there that disagrees with what I said.
Even in Buddhism. I find pretty much anytime I say anything about it online I have to add "in most lineages" because there are certainly dogmatic ones.
Random question - what resources would you recommend to someone who is interested in learning more about Buddhism?
I really like the quote you've posted. I dislike bullshit. There are many bullshit Buddhism resources out there. Where can I find the real thing?
I really like the quote you've posted. I dislike bullshit. There are many bullshit Buddhism resources out there. Where can I find the real thing?
That's only true on the folk-religion side of things. I can't speak to other faiths, but serious Christian thought has always engaged with doubt.
Some of my favorite Christian works are all about doubt, but the conclusion tends to be faith is the only way. The Catholic priest in the movie may raise his hands during the thunderstorm and shout angrily at God to show himself, but what saves him is the "leap of faith" where he realizes that God will never give you proof of his existance - it's more sophisticated, but it's still the folksy blind faith.
Many Christians believe that you must believe in Jesus to get into heaven. I prefer what Proust said (paraphrasing - the actual quote I can't find and is far more beautiful): "Who is more likely to get into heaven - someone who believes in god, despises and judges the world and mankind or someone who loves all of gods creations without judgement but doesn't believe in him?" I refuse to think a loving god would make the litmus test such an arbitrary thing.
Many Christians believe that you must believe in Jesus to get into heaven. I prefer what Proust said (paraphrasing - the actual quote I can't find and is far more beautiful): "Who is more likely to get into heaven - someone who believes in god, despises and judges the world and mankind or someone who loves all of gods creations without judgement but doesn't believe in him?" I refuse to think a loving god would make the litmus test such an arbitrary thing.
See ’faith’ as believing in that doing the ’right’ thing, when no one is looking, by your definition is the best way possible (no deceiving, lying and all other sins).
You cannot have faith and despise the world, you are supposed to judges your failings first before judging others.
You cannot have faith and despise the world, you are supposed to judges your failings first before judging others.
12 years of growing up in Christian schools.
Doubt came up a lot. Depended on the speaker too. Many would talk about their struggles. Times when they got angry at God, or fell away. Or there reasoning on why God exists.
One constant teaching was that Christianity is not a religion. But about forming a relationship with God through Christ.
One constant teaching was that Christianity is not a religion. But about forming a relationship with God through Christ.
> One constant teaching was that Christianity is not a religion. But about forming a relationship with God through Christ.
How can one even begin to attempt that task if one truly doubts that God exists? Also, is believing a God of some sort not exactly what a religion is?
How can one even begin to attempt that task if one truly doubts that God exists? Also, is believing a God of some sort not exactly what a religion is?
Religion is a set of rules and traditions. Perform 50 hail marries. Light 50 candles. Only eat X on whatever day.
A relationship is trying to understand God. What he means. How you can serve him. What kind of life Christ lived. How to live as an example to others.
Everyone has doubts. Most of my teachers would talk about times that they struggled.
It takes a lot of faith to believe that there is an all powerful God. that loves you for you.
It also takes faith to believe that universe popped out of nothing, the conditions for life happened to be just right, and that it’s also meaningless.
Maybe Christians are wrong. But maybe not. Worse that happens is people were nicer to each other for awhile. The other is that you spend eternity in Heaven.
A relationship is trying to understand God. What he means. How you can serve him. What kind of life Christ lived. How to live as an example to others.
Everyone has doubts. Most of my teachers would talk about times that they struggled.
It takes a lot of faith to believe that there is an all powerful God. that loves you for you.
It also takes faith to believe that universe popped out of nothing, the conditions for life happened to be just right, and that it’s also meaningless.
Maybe Christians are wrong. But maybe not. Worse that happens is people were nicer to each other for awhile. The other is that you spend eternity in Heaven.
> It takes a lot of faith to believe that there is an all powerful God. that loves you for you.
I feel like I kind of get what you're saying. But it seems to even have this perspective that one ought to try to believe in God, to be motivated to struggle, one already has to accept religious teachings of some kind.
I don't struggle to believe that the universe popped out of nothing, I very easily and without any effort on my part maintain the belief that it's pretty much impossible for us to know where the universe came from and that it's probably not worth expending too much effort worrying about it. I'd see having to make an effort to believe something somewhat of a red flag regarding the validity of that belief.
> Worse that happens is people were nicer to each other for awhile. The other is that you spend eternity in Heaven.
I mean, some religious people are nice to each other. Others are downright nasty and make life very difficult for people who don't fit into their worldview (for example because they're gay). And presumably the worst case is that there is in fact a God who happens to take the opposite view on morality to the Christian one and thus Christians end up spending an eternity in Hell. As far as I can that's no less likely than there being a Christian God.
I feel like I kind of get what you're saying. But it seems to even have this perspective that one ought to try to believe in God, to be motivated to struggle, one already has to accept religious teachings of some kind.
I don't struggle to believe that the universe popped out of nothing, I very easily and without any effort on my part maintain the belief that it's pretty much impossible for us to know where the universe came from and that it's probably not worth expending too much effort worrying about it. I'd see having to make an effort to believe something somewhat of a red flag regarding the validity of that belief.
> Worse that happens is people were nicer to each other for awhile. The other is that you spend eternity in Heaven.
I mean, some religious people are nice to each other. Others are downright nasty and make life very difficult for people who don't fit into their worldview (for example because they're gay). And presumably the worst case is that there is in fact a God who happens to take the opposite view on morality to the Christian one and thus Christians end up spending an eternity in Hell. As far as I can that's no less likely than there being a Christian God.
> I don't struggle to believe that the universe popped out of nothing, I very easily and without any effort on my part maintain the belief that it's pretty much impossible for us to know where the universe came from and that it's probably not worth expending too much effort worrying about it. I'd see having to make an effort to believe something somewhat of a red flag regarding the validity of that belief
A Christian can just as easily say:
I don't struggle to believe that God created the universe out of nothing, I very easily and without any effort on my part maintain the belief that it's pretty much impossible for us to know where the universe came from and that it's probably not worth expending too much effort worrying about it. I'd see having to make an effort to believe something somewhat of a red flag regarding the validity of that belief.
Most reasonable Christians (at least 90% of the Christians I know and have met) will readily admit that we don't know with a 100% certainty that God created the universe. We have faith that He did, but we could very well be wrong. If I'm wrong, at least I've lived a full life and felt like my life had meaning.
> Others are downright nasty and make life very difficult for people who don't fit into their worldview (for example because they're gay)
People get all hung up about a Christian saying that it's a sin to be gay. We also say it's a sin to lie, and it's a sin to lust after a woman (or man) that isn't your spouse, and it's a sin to engage in gluttony. Does that mean we look down on people who have sinned and reject them? No, because like Romans says, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The law is like a mirror. It's a lot easier to see your flaws in a perfect reflective mirror then it is to see them in an old foggy one. The law is a perfect mirror that shows us the depravity we _all_ have inside of us, and it exists so we can strive to be better.
No one will ever attain perfection, but that doesn't mean we're free to go on sinning. Romans is an amazing book if you want to read about a devout Christian's struggle with sin.
Anyways, if a person engages in homosexual behavior, do I think that's a sin? Yes. But I also sin every day. It doesn't excuse it, but it's also no better or worse than any sin that I commit, it just happens to be one I don't struggle with. And if you don't want to be a Christian and still want to be gay, go for it! I'm not going to stop you. Because we're adults, and we make our own choices. It's as simple as that.
My opinion on the behavior means nothing, and I'm not going to berate strangers for engaging in an activity they already know I disapprove of because of my worldview. I literally don't need to say anything, and I won't unless they specifically ask me what my thoughts are on the matter.
A Christian can just as easily say:
I don't struggle to believe that God created the universe out of nothing, I very easily and without any effort on my part maintain the belief that it's pretty much impossible for us to know where the universe came from and that it's probably not worth expending too much effort worrying about it. I'd see having to make an effort to believe something somewhat of a red flag regarding the validity of that belief.
Most reasonable Christians (at least 90% of the Christians I know and have met) will readily admit that we don't know with a 100% certainty that God created the universe. We have faith that He did, but we could very well be wrong. If I'm wrong, at least I've lived a full life and felt like my life had meaning.
> Others are downright nasty and make life very difficult for people who don't fit into their worldview (for example because they're gay)
People get all hung up about a Christian saying that it's a sin to be gay. We also say it's a sin to lie, and it's a sin to lust after a woman (or man) that isn't your spouse, and it's a sin to engage in gluttony. Does that mean we look down on people who have sinned and reject them? No, because like Romans says, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The law is like a mirror. It's a lot easier to see your flaws in a perfect reflective mirror then it is to see them in an old foggy one. The law is a perfect mirror that shows us the depravity we _all_ have inside of us, and it exists so we can strive to be better.
No one will ever attain perfection, but that doesn't mean we're free to go on sinning. Romans is an amazing book if you want to read about a devout Christian's struggle with sin.
Anyways, if a person engages in homosexual behavior, do I think that's a sin? Yes. But I also sin every day. It doesn't excuse it, but it's also no better or worse than any sin that I commit, it just happens to be one I don't struggle with. And if you don't want to be a Christian and still want to be gay, go for it! I'm not going to stop you. Because we're adults, and we make our own choices. It's as simple as that.
My opinion on the behavior means nothing, and I'm not going to berate strangers for engaging in an activity they already know I disapprove of because of my worldview. I literally don't need to say anything, and I won't unless they specifically ask me what my thoughts are on the matter.
A relationship with a person you cannot see, touch, feel, hear, or taste.
Who revealed themselves directly only before the enlightenment, and thereafter must be experienced only in ones mind, testimony from those long dead, or by the evidence of supposed creation.
Who revealed themselves directly only before the enlightenment, and thereafter must be experienced only in ones mind, testimony from those long dead, or by the evidence of supposed creation.
One of the most famous examples being C.S. Lewis himself, his book A Grief Observed (written after his wife passed) being one of the most clear examples of it. On a slightly related note, there's an excellent film adaptation about C.S. Lewis's relationship with his wife called Shadowlands, starring Anthony Hopkins. Amazing that the man who played Hannibal Lecter could also portray the most famous Christian thinker of the 20th century so well.
I'll second that recommendation. Shadowlands is a superb film. It's very much worth watching even if you have little sympathy with Lewis's religious views.
I was just about to say the same thing. Thomas is the first person who comes to mind. He said he wouldn't believe Jesus rose from the dead unless he saw him and his scars. Job is an entire book about wrestling with God. It's all about why would a good God allow all this suffering? All his friends tell him to just denounce his faith and move on with life. And several of the people throughout the Bible don't doubt that God exists, but they do doubt that He will do what He promises.
So there are definitely religions that encourage doubting whether God exists. Eventually you have to come to some sort of immovable mover. Whether that's the Big Bang or God, so there's nothing inherently illogical about believing in something that is timeless and has always existed.
So there are definitely religions that encourage doubting whether God exists. Eventually you have to come to some sort of immovable mover. Whether that's the Big Bang or God, so there's nothing inherently illogical about believing in something that is timeless and has always existed.
That's kind of a strawman. Serious Catholic thought (John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Pope Benedict, etc) doesn't try to "remove the doubt" at all. I highly recommend Ratzinger / Benedict for modern text, and the great contemplatives for non-modern texts. They grapple with doubt and all other tricky subjects head on, and have a broad (and in my opinion accurate and subtle) view of the journey of life.
I was also going to recommend John of the Cross. There's also a whole tradition of apophatic (negative) theology, and an associated tradition of darkness mysticism (e.g. Pseudo-Dionysius). That your doubts are founded in the reality that God is unknowable-as-such, and even "existence" may be an invalid concept to apply to the divine.
In that vein, but I've been reading a book that synthesizes John and Teresa and the gospels. It had a few gems that stood out to me recently. On the importance of voiding oneself of all: "He is not only beyond all things, but boundlessly beyond them. Created realities are... more unlike God than like Him.... However impressive may be one's knowledge or feeling of God, that knowledge or feeling will have no resemblance to God and amount to very little."
> The problem I have with religion is the focus on "removing the doubt", which I strongly disagree with
This isn't the case as often as you might think. Consider religions like Unitarianism, for example. You can also make a strong case that the doubt is baked foundationally into Christianity itself-- consider Zizek's readings of Chesterton and Hegel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEuY46p5yH4
> And as soon as you remove the doubt ban, you don't really have a religion anymore, but a philosophy
Lots of philosophers were/are extremely religious
This isn't the case as often as you might think. Consider religions like Unitarianism, for example. You can also make a strong case that the doubt is baked foundationally into Christianity itself-- consider Zizek's readings of Chesterton and Hegel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEuY46p5yH4
> And as soon as you remove the doubt ban, you don't really have a religion anymore, but a philosophy
Lots of philosophers were/are extremely religious
>doubting a god's existance is a major no-no in most popular religions
This is certainly not true of the Christianity that I've been witness to all my life. In those circles, doubt is a given - an intrinsic component of the inquisitive human mind - and doubt is basically the core of all faith. If there's no room for doubt, there's no room for faith.
This is certainly not true of the Christianity that I've been witness to all my life. In those circles, doubt is a given - an intrinsic component of the inquisitive human mind - and doubt is basically the core of all faith. If there's no room for doubt, there's no room for faith.
That's why many of us opt for eastern traditions - which are generally pretty good at separating the philosophical aspects from the belief aspects.
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I mean a big chunk of Christian teaching is about faith. It’s not like Christianity teaches “you believe in god? Good, let move on to other stuff now”.
Religion is a modern word. Religious people did not refer to them as religious before. It was all part of life itself.
How modern is modern? I have sources back to at least the 1490s which clearly use the word 'religion' (and many more, earlier, sources that use the latin 'religionem') ...
The word has been changing for a long time. For lack of a better way to put it, think of it as the difference between an insider's word and an outsiders. Older texts almost always have an implicit reference to a particular faith in it. A 16th writer who says "he is a religious man" means that "he is an observant $SECT". In modern uses, it almost always means "he believes in this class of beliefs and practices". The reason I refer to it as an outsiders term is that it groups together groups that don't generally think of themselves as one.
Modern usages of the word "religion" group Christians and Muslims (for example), groups that would see themselves as distinct.
Interestingly, you can see a bridge period of sorts. If you think back to characters in movies of the 30s and 40s saying "I am not a religious man, but..." or "I am not a praying man, but..." you can kind of see the shift. A little reference to the good standing meaning but also some of the outsider type frame.
Modern usages of the word "religion" group Christians and Muslims (for example), groups that would see themselves as distinct.
Interestingly, you can see a bridge period of sorts. If you think back to characters in movies of the 30s and 40s saying "I am not a religious man, but..." or "I am not a praying man, but..." you can kind of see the shift. A little reference to the good standing meaning but also some of the outsider type frame.
But isn't that ingroup/outgroup-dynamic still happening? Very few westerners would consider the followers of Bagwhan 'religious', they'd rather use something like 'cultists'. Aum/Aleph is a 'cult', even though it represents itself as a syncretism between Buddhism and Christianity. Radical forms of Islam are sometimes called a cult, and sometimes a religion, depending on the speaker.
All that shift in meaning seems to do is that it determines which belief systems are considered appropriate by a speaker, and which aren't...
All that shift in meaning seems to do is that it determines which belief systems are considered appropriate by a speaker, and which aren't...
Agreed, I've never heard of any group self-identify as a 'cult' in modern times. The word almost always has a pejorative connotation to it.
As a funny aside, I went to look up the etymology of the word and a quotation is listed at https://www.etymonline.com/word/Cult:
"Cult is a term which, as we value exactness, we can ill do without, seeing how completely religion has lost its original signification. Fitzedward Hall, "Modern English," 1873"
It strikes me as funny because the problem with the word 'religion' is noted as far back as 1873, but I'd argue 'cult' is now even less precise than 'religion'. I don't think it was always that way. References to Roman mystery religions as 'cults' generally lack the pejorative connotation.
As a funny aside, I went to look up the etymology of the word and a quotation is listed at https://www.etymonline.com/word/Cult:
"Cult is a term which, as we value exactness, we can ill do without, seeing how completely religion has lost its original signification. Fitzedward Hall, "Modern English," 1873"
It strikes me as funny because the problem with the word 'religion' is noted as far back as 1873, but I'd argue 'cult' is now even less precise than 'religion'. I don't think it was always that way. References to Roman mystery religions as 'cults' generally lack the pejorative connotation.
> I recommend religion and religious teachings which address this and many other daily worldly issues perfectly.
This advice simply doesn't work if the recipient is an atheist.
To me, Religious texts are made up fiction that hold no more meaning in my world view than Harry Potter or Game of Thrones. If you read enough fiction on a shared topic, you'll be able to pull the same number of 'enlightening' quotes from those books as religious people can from their own sacred tomes.
However, IF you are a religious person, and find meaning in your religious books, then take the win, and enjoy that path. It's just that it's not a path everyone can take.
This advice simply doesn't work if the recipient is an atheist.
To me, Religious texts are made up fiction that hold no more meaning in my world view than Harry Potter or Game of Thrones. If you read enough fiction on a shared topic, you'll be able to pull the same number of 'enlightening' quotes from those books as religious people can from their own sacred tomes.
However, IF you are a religious person, and find meaning in your religious books, then take the win, and enjoy that path. It's just that it's not a path everyone can take.
I mean, I used to be an atheist. Like, going to Richard Dawkins on campus, sneering at how stupid Christians were rolling my eyes at every little thing atheist. For a good ten to fifteen years. Then I realized it was terrible for my mental health and just got over myself and adopted more of a Pascal’s Wager outlook. Like, I frankly don’t give a damn about the truth or falsity of religion anymore. That’s not the point. It lets me act as if my life has meaning regardless of whether or not that’s true, which even when I directly reflect on it is a small amount of comfort insulating me from the yawning abyss of existential terror I felt throughout all of my 20s and half of my teens.
If pressed I guess I’ll say it’s unlikely to be true. But that’s not the point. I don’t even care to explain the point really. But both me and my wife ran Meetup groups about being atheist and eventually decided reading Christian philosophy and teachings was a better bet than the slow crushing millstone of the weight of the universe awaiting me behind the curtain of materialism.
There’s a lot of really bad stuff and I think Christianity needs reforming, but I still think it’s the better long term bet in terms of the wellbeing of me and my future generations.
If pressed I guess I’ll say it’s unlikely to be true. But that’s not the point. I don’t even care to explain the point really. But both me and my wife ran Meetup groups about being atheist and eventually decided reading Christian philosophy and teachings was a better bet than the slow crushing millstone of the weight of the universe awaiting me behind the curtain of materialism.
There’s a lot of really bad stuff and I think Christianity needs reforming, but I still think it’s the better long term bet in terms of the wellbeing of me and my future generations.
> Like, going to Richard Dawkins on campus, sneering at how stupid Christians were rolling my eyes at every little thing atheist. For a good ten to fifteen years. Then I realized it was terrible for my mental health and just got over myself and adopted more of a Pascal’s Wager outlook.
As an atheist, you weren't a practicing atheist. You were an agitator with a religion of your own, which is projecting and spreading atheism. I used to call these folks "militant atheists" because, like when I was a teenager and left the Catholic church, I was ready to treat others the way I'd been treated (and seen others treated). This is not a healthy paradigm for leaving any community though and furthermore it repeats the sins of the past.
> Like, I frankly don’t give a damn about the truth or falsity of religion anymore. That’s not the point. It lets me act as if my life has meaning regardless of whether or not that’s true, which even when I directly reflect on it is a small amount of comfort insulating me from the yawning abyss of existential terror I felt throughout all of my 20s and half of my teens.
... and then you adopted the mindset of an actual atheist (one without religion), and then adopted a religion!
For what it's worth, I'm glad you're happy, that's really what matters. Maybe now that you have experience as someone without religion it gives you perspective as someone with faith. From what you've written, it sounds like that's the case.
A final thought (and opinion) that no one asked for: as an atheist I applaud the healthy exercise of and engagement with religion. The only time in which I object to religions or institutions is when they think their ideas are proper enough to be codified into law. For that, we have science and bureaucracy, of which religion can be a part of neither due to self-interested hegemony, which is an obvious conflict of interest.
As an atheist, you weren't a practicing atheist. You were an agitator with a religion of your own, which is projecting and spreading atheism. I used to call these folks "militant atheists" because, like when I was a teenager and left the Catholic church, I was ready to treat others the way I'd been treated (and seen others treated). This is not a healthy paradigm for leaving any community though and furthermore it repeats the sins of the past.
> Like, I frankly don’t give a damn about the truth or falsity of religion anymore. That’s not the point. It lets me act as if my life has meaning regardless of whether or not that’s true, which even when I directly reflect on it is a small amount of comfort insulating me from the yawning abyss of existential terror I felt throughout all of my 20s and half of my teens.
... and then you adopted the mindset of an actual atheist (one without religion), and then adopted a religion!
For what it's worth, I'm glad you're happy, that's really what matters. Maybe now that you have experience as someone without religion it gives you perspective as someone with faith. From what you've written, it sounds like that's the case.
A final thought (and opinion) that no one asked for: as an atheist I applaud the healthy exercise of and engagement with religion. The only time in which I object to religions or institutions is when they think their ideas are proper enough to be codified into law. For that, we have science and bureaucracy, of which religion can be a part of neither due to self-interested hegemony, which is an obvious conflict of interest.
I know the universe is a cold void but I find tons of meaning in seeing my family and friends be happy. From my relative perception of what's good and what matters, that's sufficient. Perpetuating mass delusion through religion doesn't seem like the better bet.
Replace the word "religion" by "communal life philosophy" and perhaps you'll start understanding its actual value.
I've been reading Stoic philosophers for some time now and it has helped me a lot. Christianity seems to take a lot from them and adds a mythical spin.
I think the biggest issue with religion stems from the fact that many people fail to understand religious texts are not factual they are metaphorical. Unfortunately, throughout history (and still today) this misunderstanding has been used and led to an incalculable number of heinous crimes.
I've been reading Stoic philosophers for some time now and it has helped me a lot. Christianity seems to take a lot from them and adds a mythical spin.
I think the biggest issue with religion stems from the fact that many people fail to understand religious texts are not factual they are metaphorical. Unfortunately, throughout history (and still today) this misunderstanding has been used and led to an incalculable number of heinous crimes.
It seems like you've really loaded up the term "atheist" here with a lot of negative connotation. It's unfortunate, but a lot of people seem to think this way. Truth is, everyone in the world is an atheist if you just take the word at its basic definition of "a lack of belief in a god or god(s)". That is, there are surely gods you've never even heard of and so you lack belief in them. The way you feel about those unknown gods is the same way I feel about all gods
But the label of atheist has been imbued with all sorts of negativity. So much so that some people hear it and think being an atheist actually makes someone evil, without any care for the well-being of other humans. Or they think the atheist must be miserable and unfeeling.
It's why I don't even use the term any more. I don't know if other people I'm talking to will have the same definition of the term that I do. If someone asks me about my religious beliefs, I simply say that I have none.
But the label of atheist has been imbued with all sorts of negativity. So much so that some people hear it and think being an atheist actually makes someone evil, without any care for the well-being of other humans. Or they think the atheist must be miserable and unfeeling.
It's why I don't even use the term any more. I don't know if other people I'm talking to will have the same definition of the term that I do. If someone asks me about my religious beliefs, I simply say that I have none.
I mean, did you live through the new Atheism and then the Atheism+ movement of the 2000s and 2010s? I watched peoples lives get ruined, mentally unwell people commit suicide, people get arrested for embezzling donations, the works.
The “atheist community” (and it was oddly enough a real thing for awhile, with atheist church and everything! Look up Oasis on YouTube). It attracted people who were hedonistic and amoral and, in retrospect, went down in flames about how you’d have expected.
I’m not just some isolated Christian who has never met an atheist deriding them as some sort of bogeyman, I was friends with people in Poly Quads and met spouses who were bullied by their SO into being swingers, then watched 50 year olds behave like teenagers with all the consummate drama as well.
Once we had kids we totally removed ourselves from that situation and it fell apart a few years later, after the leader (who was originally a Christian pastor, I might add) got #metoo’ed for (surprise surprise) having sex with half the women in the organization.
The “atheist community” (and it was oddly enough a real thing for awhile, with atheist church and everything! Look up Oasis on YouTube). It attracted people who were hedonistic and amoral and, in retrospect, went down in flames about how you’d have expected.
I’m not just some isolated Christian who has never met an atheist deriding them as some sort of bogeyman, I was friends with people in Poly Quads and met spouses who were bullied by their SO into being swingers, then watched 50 year olds behave like teenagers with all the consummate drama as well.
Once we had kids we totally removed ourselves from that situation and it fell apart a few years later, after the leader (who was originally a Christian pastor, I might add) got #metoo’ed for (surprise surprise) having sex with half the women in the organization.
> If pressed I guess I’ll say it’s unlikely to be true. But that’s not the point.
The problem is expecting the dogma of a thousands years old tradition and book to be absolutely true. There are things in the Bible and Christianity that are basically tall tales. For example, I doubt Jesus was immaculately conceived, but it makes for a great story. People make up stories about remarkable people. I believe Jesus was a real person who had world-changing insights, but I'm afraid a lot of cruft has built up around him and been carried forward as literal truth.
The challenge for an individual is separating the wheat from the chaff.
Most of my thoughts on the matter are derived from Tolstoy's The Kingdom of God is Within You.
The problem is expecting the dogma of a thousands years old tradition and book to be absolutely true. There are things in the Bible and Christianity that are basically tall tales. For example, I doubt Jesus was immaculately conceived, but it makes for a great story. People make up stories about remarkable people. I believe Jesus was a real person who had world-changing insights, but I'm afraid a lot of cruft has built up around him and been carried forward as literal truth.
The challenge for an individual is separating the wheat from the chaff.
Most of my thoughts on the matter are derived from Tolstoy's The Kingdom of God is Within You.
I didn't read it, but I listened to an audiobook version of TKOGIWY about a year ago on a long road trip. I must have missed something, because my take-away was that the author was propounding the merits of of passivism, and anti-authoritarianism. I thought it was tedious. I remember being disappointed.
It is very dense and in a philosophical style. I'm not surprised it was tedious as an audiobook. I'd like to read it again myself. My takeaway was that Tolstoy believed Christ had ushered in a new era for man, philosophically. The previous eras were:
1. man serves self and family
2. man serves state and country
3. man serves god
He believed many of our problems are due to most of us still being stuck at level 2 of existence. A man at level 3 is immune to the problems of a man at level 2. For example, they couldn't even compel Jesus w/ bodily harm. They killed him, and what good did it do them?
He also argued that the shift to level 3 is inevitable and already in progress.
1. man serves self and family
2. man serves state and country
3. man serves god
He believed many of our problems are due to most of us still being stuck at level 2 of existence. A man at level 3 is immune to the problems of a man at level 2. For example, they couldn't even compel Jesus w/ bodily harm. They killed him, and what good did it do them?
He also argued that the shift to level 3 is inevitable and already in progress.
This is pretty adjacent to some of the stuff I've been thinking about as of recent. Maybe I'll give religion a try.
I am also a non-believer, but I think there is room for religion even for those who have a difficult time with the "fairy tale" aspect of it. Personally, I do not, but I'm thinking about giving it a shot.
The thing is that the stories in religious books help paint a picture of life and offer anecdotes on how one can navigate it. There is no need to look for enlightenment, just practical advice on how to deal with tough life situations and help you find motivation and strength to power through. Thousands of years of observing and documenting people's lives through stories and metaphors has value, even for us non-believers.
I think you'd even be surprised how many people who regularly attend church services don't actually believe in the mystic aspect of it all; it's the community and guidance that have the most value to them.
The thing is that the stories in religious books help paint a picture of life and offer anecdotes on how one can navigate it. There is no need to look for enlightenment, just practical advice on how to deal with tough life situations and help you find motivation and strength to power through. Thousands of years of observing and documenting people's lives through stories and metaphors has value, even for us non-believers.
I think you'd even be surprised how many people who regularly attend church services don't actually believe in the mystic aspect of it all; it's the community and guidance that have the most value to them.
You can pick and choose philosophy and morals from a religion (or multiple religions) without buying the whole farm. To me, this seems like the right way to go. Cherry pick the good stuff and ignore the cruel parts and weird, supernatural stuff.
Church selection seems to play a big role. I don't know too much about it but from other commenters, there are apparently churches that emphasize the mysticism and paranormal side of Christianity, some that focus on the texts, some that mostly deal with hero-worship and the hero's origin story, some that are basically political Trump rallies, and some more laid back ones that are basically social/music clubs.
Church selection seems to play a big role. I don't know too much about it but from other commenters, there are apparently churches that emphasize the mysticism and paranormal side of Christianity, some that focus on the texts, some that mostly deal with hero-worship and the hero's origin story, some that are basically political Trump rallies, and some more laid back ones that are basically social/music clubs.
You really don't see the difference between popular fiction and cultural texts that have survived for thousands of years?
How do you feel about The Iliad, Plato's dialogues, the Mahabharata, Tao Te Ching, or the Epic of Gilgamesh? Do they also offer "no more meaning in your world" than modern fantasy novels?
I didn't think being an atheist meant closing ones mind to human culture. Guess I've been doing it wrong.
How do you feel about The Iliad, Plato's dialogues, the Mahabharata, Tao Te Ching, or the Epic of Gilgamesh? Do they also offer "no more meaning in your world" than modern fantasy novels?
I didn't think being an atheist meant closing ones mind to human culture. Guess I've been doing it wrong.
I think the person you replied to simply meant they found no spiritual significance in religious texts. That is, their ONLY value is either as a piece of literature or as a historical recording of culture.
None of these are religious texts (as in, the Bible, the Koran, etc) . What are you talking about?
Do you have any more evidence for some of the claims made in those texts than you do for the claims made in religious texts? Read them all as fiction, but they're still culturally significant and a lot can be learned by reading them, even if all you are learning is more about your fellow human's perspective.
The Dao De Jing, Mahabharata, and Plato's dialogues have been or are currently used as religious texts (the former two more then the latter, but the Neo-Platonism is/was a hell of a drug).
I disagree - I do not believe in any organized religion but I do like the Bible - almost all of Western society is built on it so there is a power in the words as you're tapping into something fundamental that's been bounced around culture for centuries. I dip into it occasionally and find some passage that really speaks to me.
Admittedly I do ignore parts of it - there's a lot of "wives should be obedient" stuff in there that has not aged well for instance - and I read it as God representing something like the Chinese Dao - IE the impersonal and immaterial laws of nature, the way that things unfold, and faith in God being an active version of the Stoic idea that you can't change the things you don't have control over, so just let it be.
Admittedly I do ignore parts of it - there's a lot of "wives should be obedient" stuff in there that has not aged well for instance - and I read it as God representing something like the Chinese Dao - IE the impersonal and immaterial laws of nature, the way that things unfold, and faith in God being an active version of the Stoic idea that you can't change the things you don't have control over, so just let it be.
To me, Theology is really philosophy + God. That's kinda the beauty of it, you can interpret it however you like or however it fits you at the time. If you don't want the + God right now, just consider the philosophy.
>Religious texts are made up fiction that hold no more meaning in my world view
Plato's The Cave allegory is relevant, even though no one would ever live in a cave like that and it's obviously fiction. Some people treat the Bible as a historical text, but most don't. Some people believe the earth is flat too, there's always that 10-20%.
Having said that, I tried reading the Bible but I couldn't get through all the begats. I do like hearing honest people discuss it though. Like anything, it can certainly be weaponized.
>Religious texts are made up fiction that hold no more meaning in my world view
Plato's The Cave allegory is relevant, even though no one would ever live in a cave like that and it's obviously fiction. Some people treat the Bible as a historical text, but most don't. Some people believe the earth is flat too, there's always that 10-20%.
Having said that, I tried reading the Bible but I couldn't get through all the begats. I do like hearing honest people discuss it though. Like anything, it can certainly be weaponized.
I think philosophy without faith is nice but doesn't have the same benefits at all. I think what makes religious people happier is the strong sense of community and offloading some of their existential angst to a third party.
I think it can be interesting to approach religious teachings from a perennialist mindset: what’s common between all religions.
There is a lot to learn about life and human nature in religion. You don’t have to believe in an afterlife or practice dogma to get something out of it.
There is a lot to learn about life and human nature in religion. You don’t have to believe in an afterlife or practice dogma to get something out of it.
In context, your reply sounds like a negative take, but I find it rather positive.
I've always found good fiction enlightening. There is no need to be so serious about it.
My biggest criticism of religion is the very boundary drawn between fiction and scripture: that adherents to a religion must treat fiction as if it is reality.
All too often, that means obsessing over obedience to a structure of rules/dogma, instead of confronting the reality right in front of us; like voting to restrict gay marriage so God will bless our country, instead of learning to empathize with people around us to become a better community.
I've always found good fiction enlightening. There is no need to be so serious about it.
My biggest criticism of religion is the very boundary drawn between fiction and scripture: that adherents to a religion must treat fiction as if it is reality.
All too often, that means obsessing over obedience to a structure of rules/dogma, instead of confronting the reality right in front of us; like voting to restrict gay marriage so God will bless our country, instead of learning to empathize with people around us to become a better community.
> My biggest criticism of religion is the very boundary drawn between fiction and scripture: that adherents to a religion must treat fiction as if it is reality.
Agreed. This is the part that really gets under my skin… its been my understanding for most of my life that the bible specifically is full of allegory, not history. Yet, so many many of the “believers” I encounter don’t know what “allegory” means. The bible is their literal truth!
Tbh, knowing this isn’t helpful. It somehow makes me more paralyzed in dealing with literal believers. It always feels like they know they’re full of shit, but won’t admit it. There’s a disingenuousness to it that very deeply bothers me.
Agreed. This is the part that really gets under my skin… its been my understanding for most of my life that the bible specifically is full of allegory, not history. Yet, so many many of the “believers” I encounter don’t know what “allegory” means. The bible is their literal truth!
Tbh, knowing this isn’t helpful. It somehow makes me more paralyzed in dealing with literal believers. It always feels like they know they’re full of shit, but won’t admit it. There’s a disingenuousness to it that very deeply bothers me.
Often it's because while they may "know they're full of shit", they won't admit it to themselves.
Being able to think critically of religion means being agnostic or atheist.
My assertion is that it's not you who is paralyzed, but anyone who cannot criticize their own position.
Being able to think critically of religion means being agnostic or atheist.
My assertion is that it's not you who is paralyzed, but anyone who cannot criticize their own position.
This is a good take, thanks! It feels like their paralysis is contagious, which is endlessly frustrating.
like voting to restrict gay marriage so God will bless our country
Do we know how this is going to play out, though? Has matrimony between same sex couples ever been widely available in any civilization? Rome, Greece, China and Egypt all had various different approaches to open homosexual relationships overtime, but it's hard to find any significant civilization that broadly equated same sex unions and heterosexual marriage. I'll allow that my research on this is incomplete.
I think anyone who thinks they know for certain how this kind of social change will play out on the scale of decades or centuries is mistaken. It's possible that everything turns out great and we enter a golden era of tolerance and flourishing human relationships, but at the same time there's usually something worth fearing in the unknown, which is why we tend to.
Do we know how this is going to play out, though? Has matrimony between same sex couples ever been widely available in any civilization? Rome, Greece, China and Egypt all had various different approaches to open homosexual relationships overtime, but it's hard to find any significant civilization that broadly equated same sex unions and heterosexual marriage. I'll allow that my research on this is incomplete.
I think anyone who thinks they know for certain how this kind of social change will play out on the scale of decades or centuries is mistaken. It's possible that everything turns out great and we enter a golden era of tolerance and flourishing human relationships, but at the same time there's usually something worth fearing in the unknown, which is why we tend to.
If no one has tried it yet, it might be worth being the first one.
From what I can tell, the only group claiming to know what will happen in the future are religious conservatives who want gay marriage outlawed. It's their claim that homosexual unions will lead to a bad societal outcome, and that claim is based purely on religious dogma.
From what I can tell, the only group claiming to know what will happen in the future are religious conservatives who want gay marriage outlawed. It's their claim that homosexual unions will lead to a bad societal outcome, and that claim is based purely on religious dogma.
The difference between Harry Potter and most religious texts is that the religious texts are often the result of thousands of years of evolutionary processes which refine them, and the people who have followed them have survived/thrived.
It doesn't matter if the Bible/Koran/whatever is a fact or not. Religious beliefs/texts are an extension of human evolution and should be seen that way. Questioning their wisdom in helping humans thrive is like questioning the value of arms.
It doesn't matter if the Bible/Koran/whatever is a fact or not. Religious beliefs/texts are an extension of human evolution and should be seen that way. Questioning their wisdom in helping humans thrive is like questioning the value of arms.
Questioning specific things seems easy enough.
Like proscriptions on pork or seafood; we have a pretty good understanding of the consequences of eating pork and don't necessarily have to rely on something that was a useful rule of thumb absent that knowledge.
Like proscriptions on pork or seafood; we have a pretty good understanding of the consequences of eating pork and don't necessarily have to rely on something that was a useful rule of thumb absent that knowledge.
Your response looks like the output of a poorly written shell script that prints meaningless fact checks when someone mentions religion.
Did you also know the universe wasn't created in 6 days?
Did you also know the universe wasn't created in 6 days?
>> often the result of thousands of years of evolutionary processes which refine them
>> Religious beliefs/texts are an extension of human evolution and should be seen that way.
If this is true, does it mean that churches all over the world did a big disservice to the holy books and stopped the evolution by creating institutions dedicated to preserve text of this books in unchanged form argumenting that those books literally are word of God and thus cannot be changed?
If this is true, does it mean that churches all over the world did a big disservice to the holy books and stopped the evolution by creating institutions dedicated to preserve text of this books in unchanged form argumenting that those books literally are word of God and thus cannot be changed?
You might be aware of the fact that different factions/sects exist within the major religions, similar to how humans physically evolve separate traits. Some of those off-shoots will be more successful than others.
I'm sure you have some great ideas about living. Let's check the reproductive rate of the people who follow your ideas in a thousand years.
I'm sure you have some great ideas about living. Let's check the reproductive rate of the people who follow your ideas in a thousand years.
I was not suggesting that evolution does not exists at all in religions but rather that is actively fight back by its participants.
Your DNA does the same. It tries to reduce "mistakes" and the mistakes are the evolution. And it's generally a very slow process.
This answer is on the right track. There will always be outliers, but most humans have a fundamental need for “religion”.
The west is in the process of creating a new one (modern liberal values), but as with most rewrites, you probably should have understood the existing solution before throwing it out.
The west is in the process of creating a new one (modern liberal values), but as with most rewrites, you probably should have understood the existing solution before throwing it out.
A friend of mine stated this as such: "every human able to reason has a religion-shaped hole in them; and that spot will be filled with something whether or not the human expects it to or wants it to."
I submit that plenty of religious thought patterns (things and systems you are not allowed to question the wisdom of, obsequious deference to authority, etc.) exist outside the halls of churches. PG's essay on heresy comes to mind.
I submit that plenty of religious thought patterns (things and systems you are not allowed to question the wisdom of, obsequious deference to authority, etc.) exist outside the halls of churches. PG's essay on heresy comes to mind.
IMO, one benefit of religion that is difficult to capture anywhere else is that it creates a mutually supportive community. I personally can't get over sacrificing my own intellectual honesty for the sake in group acceptance, but in most cases, I do think this is a trade off worth making. Secular Jews seem to be able to have it both ways, though I'm not sure this is something easily replicable.
> This advice simply doesn't work if the recipient is an atheist.
Then try Buddhism? More of a philosophy than a religion, and seems to have hit on the idea thousands of years ago that most problems in humanity are to do with mental illness of one sort or another.
Then try Buddhism? More of a philosophy than a religion, and seems to have hit on the idea thousands of years ago that most problems in humanity are to do with mental illness of one sort or another.
Buddhism is definitely a religion with a specific epistemology, claims on the supernatural (karma, cycle of samsara), manifestations of the divine (Bodhisattva), rituals, chants and prayers. Some Buddhist sects can be pretty radical, even.
Buddhism as conceptualized in the western world is a marketing strategy that appeals to people thanks to the fact the Buddhism is exotic, the same reason Christian symbolism is à la mode in Asia (just see how many anime have Christian themes). If you could repackage Christianity to convince these people that it is new, exotic and exciting they would convert immediately.
By the way, there are philosophical traditions, both in Buddhism and Christianity, that reject any supernatural claim and see religion as a useful but not true moral framework, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism
P.S.: I'm an atheist. I'm not defending a religion or another.
Buddhism as conceptualized in the western world is a marketing strategy that appeals to people thanks to the fact the Buddhism is exotic, the same reason Christian symbolism is à la mode in Asia (just see how many anime have Christian themes). If you could repackage Christianity to convince these people that it is new, exotic and exciting they would convert immediately.
By the way, there are philosophical traditions, both in Buddhism and Christianity, that reject any supernatural claim and see religion as a useful but not true moral framework, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism
P.S.: I'm an atheist. I'm not defending a religion or another.
> f you read enough fiction on a shared topic, you'll be able to pull the same number of 'enlightening' quotes from those books as religious people can from their own sacred tomes.
In fact, Harry Potter And The Sacred Text does exactly that!
In fact, Harry Potter And The Sacred Text does exactly that!
I’ve known plenty of people who get a ton of meaning out of fictional works too. Just because you view it as fictional doesn’t mean it can’t have meaning.
I hold spirituality to be a choice to hold things sacred. Almost everyone holds something sacred, whether it's family bonds or whatever. You can also choose to hold more things sacred, even the entire world, without believing in divinities.
> Religious texts are made up fiction that hold no more meaning in my world view than Harry Potter or Game of Thrones
I have been downvoted many times (not sure why?) for stating this on HN, but I will state it again:
It's sad that this line of thinking has taken over the modern time. We now have "science", so we don't need any of that silly stuff like "philosophy" or "art" or "religion". All can be explained through the scientific method and all other branches of human intellect are null and avoid.
Of course, this comes from the new Atheists who influenced a lot of the younger generation years a go when they started but their ideas actually stems from older philosophers who shaped the modern day thinking.
Mainly Karl Marx, Friedrich Nietzsche (who was also influenced by Feuerbach), Jean Paul Sartre and Michel Foucault.
For example, What did Jean-Paul Sartre say? "Existence precedes essence" and you can _clearly_ see how this has affected the modern Atheism mentality in the 21st century.
If existence precedes essence, then everything is relative and nothing can be objective and absolute; thus to claim things such as objective morality in the way that religion does is meaningless.
Don't forget that Sartre said: "If God exists, I can't be free, but I am free. Therefore God does not exist". Once again, if you look carefully enough, you absolutely see this in the modern world. The New Atheists for example, took all their ideas and spread them from these philosophers. What was Hitchen's famous quote? He would constantly regurgitate Karl Marx: "Religion is the opium of the people" which again.. is rooted from Sartre philosophy.
There is a great talk about this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KQcm0Mi5To
More to it, to anyone who claims religious people are intellectual inept, I would simply challenge you to read any of the material written by the intellectuals of the tradition. For example, for Christianity they would be: Augustine of Hippo, Anselm of Canterbury, Thomas Aquinas or John Henry Newman and tell me you're dealing with someone who has suspended his critical faculties.
You are welcome to disagree with them of course, but to claim that we should simply replace these materials with math books is disingenuous.
Just my 2c.
I have been downvoted many times (not sure why?) for stating this on HN, but I will state it again:
It's sad that this line of thinking has taken over the modern time. We now have "science", so we don't need any of that silly stuff like "philosophy" or "art" or "religion". All can be explained through the scientific method and all other branches of human intellect are null and avoid.
Of course, this comes from the new Atheists who influenced a lot of the younger generation years a go when they started but their ideas actually stems from older philosophers who shaped the modern day thinking.
Mainly Karl Marx, Friedrich Nietzsche (who was also influenced by Feuerbach), Jean Paul Sartre and Michel Foucault.
For example, What did Jean-Paul Sartre say? "Existence precedes essence" and you can _clearly_ see how this has affected the modern Atheism mentality in the 21st century.
If existence precedes essence, then everything is relative and nothing can be objective and absolute; thus to claim things such as objective morality in the way that religion does is meaningless.
Don't forget that Sartre said: "If God exists, I can't be free, but I am free. Therefore God does not exist". Once again, if you look carefully enough, you absolutely see this in the modern world. The New Atheists for example, took all their ideas and spread them from these philosophers. What was Hitchen's famous quote? He would constantly regurgitate Karl Marx: "Religion is the opium of the people" which again.. is rooted from Sartre philosophy.
There is a great talk about this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KQcm0Mi5To
More to it, to anyone who claims religious people are intellectual inept, I would simply challenge you to read any of the material written by the intellectuals of the tradition. For example, for Christianity they would be: Augustine of Hippo, Anselm of Canterbury, Thomas Aquinas or John Henry Newman and tell me you're dealing with someone who has suspended his critical faculties.
You are welcome to disagree with them of course, but to claim that we should simply replace these materials with math books is disingenuous.
Just my 2c.
> we don't need any of that silly stuff like "philosophy" or "art" or "religion"
Op didn't say anything about art or philosophy. You added that stuff in. Atheism doesn't preclude art or philosophy.
> All can be explained through the scientific method
As opposed to "all can be explained through God"? How is that any better?
Op didn't say anything about art or philosophy. You added that stuff in. Atheism doesn't preclude art or philosophy.
> All can be explained through the scientific method
As opposed to "all can be explained through God"? How is that any better?
>> More to it, to anyone who claims religious people are intellectual inept, I would simply challenge you to read any of the material written by the intellectuals of the tradition
That's a straw man - we all are idiots sometimes (I believe that most of times but that just me) and this little silly observation can be easily used to explain how otherwise rational and intelligent person can hold two opposite views in their had. Our rational abilities are greatly exaggerated by people like You who believe that there are magical others that can be rational all the time in all aspects of their life. Those people believe in God because they want to believe (by which I mean its an emotional decision and not an logical one) and the logic is there only to rationalize what their emotions are telling them. I suspect that if medicine will get advanced enough we will see finally that by just playing with memory and emotional state of person we can easily turn the most avid believer into Christopher Hitchens (and vice versa).
That's a straw man - we all are idiots sometimes (I believe that most of times but that just me) and this little silly observation can be easily used to explain how otherwise rational and intelligent person can hold two opposite views in their had. Our rational abilities are greatly exaggerated by people like You who believe that there are magical others that can be rational all the time in all aspects of their life. Those people believe in God because they want to believe (by which I mean its an emotional decision and not an logical one) and the logic is there only to rationalize what their emotions are telling them. I suspect that if medicine will get advanced enough we will see finally that by just playing with memory and emotional state of person we can easily turn the most avid believer into Christopher Hitchens (and vice versa).
Religion would be ok to me and, I’d imagine, OP if it presented itself as philosophy or fairy tales that you could take or leave. Or a part of human history like medieval knights.
It’s a curios byproduct of human inquisitiveness and that’s it. it shouldn’t have any special rights or claims to have a deeper understanding of the universe that would even give certain people (priests etc) to be the judges of other people’s actions.
The world wouldn’t succumb into chaos if all churches / mosques etc . were gone in an instant and people forgot they existed as anything but pretty buildings.
There were of course smart and kind people at all times and they happened to use the vehicles of religion some long long time ago when it seemed like the best logic toolbox for the mind
It’s a curios byproduct of human inquisitiveness and that’s it. it shouldn’t have any special rights or claims to have a deeper understanding of the universe that would even give certain people (priests etc) to be the judges of other people’s actions.
The world wouldn’t succumb into chaos if all churches / mosques etc . were gone in an instant and people forgot they existed as anything but pretty buildings.
There were of course smart and kind people at all times and they happened to use the vehicles of religion some long long time ago when it seemed like the best logic toolbox for the mind
No need for
> Knowing that HN is generally against it, I say it anyway
I am actually on the contrarian side of you, but thanks for putting you out there. I understand and respect your point and everything, but there is one thing, that I want to put out regarding what you said. To state the following, is quite problematic:
> Religious scholars have actually been the best psychologists but are generally dismissed by non-believers.
Without going into detail, for every profession, there are people who are good and bad at it. This has nothing to do with any background or anything. The difference with psychologists and priests/ missionaries/ etc. is, that one is certified and the other is not necessarily certified. This makes a huge difference in liability of the term/ role and it's rather dangerous to put them in the same bag. And I don't think to make this distinction is not dismissive.
> Knowing that HN is generally against it, I say it anyway
I am actually on the contrarian side of you, but thanks for putting you out there. I understand and respect your point and everything, but there is one thing, that I want to put out regarding what you said. To state the following, is quite problematic:
> Religious scholars have actually been the best psychologists but are generally dismissed by non-believers.
Without going into detail, for every profession, there are people who are good and bad at it. This has nothing to do with any background or anything. The difference with psychologists and priests/ missionaries/ etc. is, that one is certified and the other is not necessarily certified. This makes a huge difference in liability of the term/ role and it's rather dangerous to put them in the same bag. And I don't think to make this distinction is not dismissive.
Religion for a modern person with the easy access to the knowledge we now have is effectively just being intellectually lazy. Some people do need help right now, but I don’t think religions are any better than other addiction resources. AA gets a pass for me because I know atheists that used it and the religious component is easy to ignore. AA works because of the group and accountability, not faith in some higher power.
Anyway, not to be insulting, but it is all a bunch of made up nonsense for a time when we did not have actual explanatory knowledge for our existence and universe. We do now. Religion and its institutions are dying out in industrialized nations because they have lost their claim to having all the answers.
Anyway, not to be insulting, but it is all a bunch of made up nonsense for a time when we did not have actual explanatory knowledge for our existence and universe. We do now. Religion and its institutions are dying out in industrialized nations because they have lost their claim to having all the answers.
Are you saying that we (collectively) or at least you know why we exist and the meaning of life?
In broad strokes, yep.
I'm an atheist, yet I don't think science can answer why we exist and what is the meaning of life. I think those questions are syntactically valid but semantically invalid. We kind of (in the 'broad strokes' you say) think () we know how we got here, how life got started, etc. But why? How do you know that? It's an honest question because, again, I don't think that question makes sense so I'd love to know your take on it.
() I say we think we know because I'm actually agnostic (I typically say 'atheist' because it stops some conversion attempts I'm not looking for from even starting, judging by your two comments on this thread I reckoned I can give you the honest answer as you won't try to convert me into anything!) and I believe we can only know what we conclude from the information collected by our senses and our thinking process after that, but an error in either the information collection (think of how the first scientific estimates of the age of the planet were off by a long shot on account of choosing a poor thing to measure -- I'm thinking about the work of Halley here) or in the thought process would result in bad knowledge, and it seems to me there's a part of the scientific-minded population right now that has a blind spot for this: there's overconfidence in science.
() I say we think we know because I'm actually agnostic (I typically say 'atheist' because it stops some conversion attempts I'm not looking for from even starting, judging by your two comments on this thread I reckoned I can give you the honest answer as you won't try to convert me into anything!) and I believe we can only know what we conclude from the information collected by our senses and our thinking process after that, but an error in either the information collection (think of how the first scientific estimates of the age of the planet were off by a long shot on account of choosing a poor thing to measure -- I'm thinking about the work of Halley here) or in the thought process would result in bad knowledge, and it seems to me there's a part of the scientific-minded population right now that has a blind spot for this: there's overconfidence in science.
A fair response to my blithe and confident answer. In general, though, we have figured enough out to understand our origin well enough to rule out religious theories in our existence. To reduce things the way you did is a denial of progress at some level, while couching it in caution against trusting science too far. Our first bridges sucked, now they are better. Our first stabs at cosmology were not much better than another religion, now they are better. Is there some bad knowledge kicking around in science? Of course. That is why I said in “broad strokes”.
To cut to the chase: our brains are just piles of chemistry. There is no meaning. We make it up, and that is ok. “Why” we exist is coincidence and millions of years of happy little evolutionary experiments blindly conducted by nature. Maybe there is a Deus ex Machina in there, but for our purposes does it really matter?
To cut to the chase: our brains are just piles of chemistry. There is no meaning. We make it up, and that is ok. “Why” we exist is coincidence and millions of years of happy little evolutionary experiments blindly conducted by nature. Maybe there is a Deus ex Machina in there, but for our purposes does it really matter?
> “Why” we exist is coincidence and millions of years of happy little evolutionary experiments blindly conducted by nature.
I'm not religious either, but I always find this hard to believe. What are the odds nature happened to provide all the building blocks for us to be here to question our existence? It seems far more likely that (i) nothing would exist, (ii) the universe wouldn't have the right combination of properties and forces to maintain its own existence, or (iii) it would be a boring universe filled with a couple of basic elements capable of producing nothing of interest. Instead, we have complex life and we're here building iPhones and spaceships.
For that reason I can't believe there's a single universe and through coincidence it happened to contain everything needed for life. Even if we go with the multiverse theory and a near infinite number of universes, I still find it difficult to believe. You can argue the universe is filled with a bunch of garbage and we're assigning meaning and value to that garbage because it's us, and we want to feel important. However, I really don't feel like anything (and certainly not something as complex as us) should exist in the first place. I want to say it's too much of a coincidence to happen by chance, but at the same time, I don't have a better answer as to why we're here.
I'm not religious either, but I always find this hard to believe. What are the odds nature happened to provide all the building blocks for us to be here to question our existence? It seems far more likely that (i) nothing would exist, (ii) the universe wouldn't have the right combination of properties and forces to maintain its own existence, or (iii) it would be a boring universe filled with a couple of basic elements capable of producing nothing of interest. Instead, we have complex life and we're here building iPhones and spaceships.
For that reason I can't believe there's a single universe and through coincidence it happened to contain everything needed for life. Even if we go with the multiverse theory and a near infinite number of universes, I still find it difficult to believe. You can argue the universe is filled with a bunch of garbage and we're assigning meaning and value to that garbage because it's us, and we want to feel important. However, I really don't feel like anything (and certainly not something as complex as us) should exist in the first place. I want to say it's too much of a coincidence to happen by chance, but at the same time, I don't have a better answer as to why we're here.
I think you are struggling with something I thought a lot about too. It is difficult for our brains to actually internalize the /immense/ amount of time evolutionary processes have been happening. It is so long and vast and our brains are barely good with comprehending hours and days. It is a mind bogglingly loooong time. Like really, really, really long. A lot can happen in a few billion years :)
I understand evolution and the time frame. I have no trouble with that concept. What I find difficult to believe is that a viable universe started in the first place to give evolution the opportunity to succeed.
Infinitesimally low probability doesn't imply impossibility. If the event is in the probability space then it can certainly happen, no matter how serendipitous we may find it.
What is so remarkable about the iPhone or the spaceship? Why is it worthy of note when compared to any other phenomena in the universe? What brings you to make a distinction between a live human body and an inanimate celestial body?
What is so remarkable about the iPhone or the spaceship? Why is it worthy of note when compared to any other phenomena in the universe? What brings you to make a distinction between a live human body and an inanimate celestial body?
> What is so remarkable about the iPhone or the spaceship? What brings you to make a distinction between a "live" human body and an "inanimate" celestial body?
I'm not trying to say that humans are more important or meaningful than a rock. I agree with you that nothing inherently has meaning and it's an attribute we create and assign. I'm only saying that we're intelligent beings that are capable of some rather advanced tasks, such as creating a iPhone. In my opinion, it seems far less likely for us to exist than either nothing, or a simpler universe without us.
Yes, it's not impossible, just like I could throw a handful of sand in that air that falls to the ground and happens to write the story of my life. It's so unlikely though that I can't help but wonder if it wasn't just chance that we're here.
I'm not trying to say that humans are more important or meaningful than a rock. I agree with you that nothing inherently has meaning and it's an attribute we create and assign. I'm only saying that we're intelligent beings that are capable of some rather advanced tasks, such as creating a iPhone. In my opinion, it seems far less likely for us to exist than either nothing, or a simpler universe without us.
Yes, it's not impossible, just like I could throw a handful of sand in that air that falls to the ground and happens to write the story of my life. It's so unlikely though that I can't help but wonder if it wasn't just chance that we're here.
We agree on the meaning then! :)
This reminded me of the intro to “A universe from nothing”, where the author says (paraphrasing) “why is there life is the wrong question, but we can try to answer how is there life?”
Can you elaborate on what is meant by "the wrong question"?
Not OP, but I think I can add my 2c here.
It means (pun intended) that the meaning is not self sustaining term in our reality - there is no absolute meaning outside of our perception. There is only relative meaning (as in what kind of meaning my perception assigns to things that can be observed by me - simply put - we create our own meaning).
It can be simplified further to there is no meaning or the meaning does not exist but in my opinion this is oversimplification and reeks of nihilism.
So if You look at things from the point of view described above the "why" question (which can be paraphrased to "what is the meaning") is wrong.
It means (pun intended) that the meaning is not self sustaining term in our reality - there is no absolute meaning outside of our perception. There is only relative meaning (as in what kind of meaning my perception assigns to things that can be observed by me - simply put - we create our own meaning).
It can be simplified further to there is no meaning or the meaning does not exist but in my opinion this is oversimplification and reeks of nihilism.
So if You look at things from the point of view described above the "why" question (which can be paraphrased to "what is the meaning") is wrong.
I agree with this answer: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31436469
I also wanted to add that it's not that I think it is wrong to ask such questions, only that I think they're wrong when considered from within our system of knowledge, so I find them unanswerable.
Kind of how like "what kind of food does that digital computer like?" is a wrong question.
I also wanted to add that it's not that I think it is wrong to ask such questions, only that I think they're wrong when considered from within our system of knowledge, so I find them unanswerable.
Kind of how like "what kind of food does that digital computer like?" is a wrong question.
You're engaging with religion only as an explanatory mechanism for physical occurrences, whereas the weight of the argument for and against religion are on philosophical and logical grounds. It's not a strawman, as many people have used God to fill the gaps in our understanding of the physical world, but it's entirely irrelevant to the really interesting discussions on the subject. If you want to see what religious people are on about, and why some scientifically literate people continue to have faith you need to understand those arguments.
I mean, I grew up in a very religious environment and have met and had long discussions with religious scholars. You can couch it in as much sentimentalism and philosophy as you want, but to me it almost always falls apart when you dig to the real roots of religious scholarhsip and philosophy. Ultimately these people decide to have some level of faith in a thing that is contradictory to all evidence we have. It is an interesting thought experiment, but I can't find any principled reasoning behind it all at the bottom. Yes there are a lot of religious scholar types who will agree with all of science, and they continuously reform their belief system and philosophy around the scientific evidence. It is like having a belief system that wobbles and wiggles like Jello. Not to say that science has all the answers and is purely axiomatic, but at least that is its goal. Religious scholarship has a completely different agenda in my opinion and starts from a very different place when it tries to reason and I fundamentally disagree that it is a "really interesting discussion" beyond how people get sucked into believing it all. Without being dismissive, I do think I have a basic grasp of those arguments and I find them wholly lacking. A lot of it comes down to things their parents taught them and their inability to get rid of their deep seated beliefs about the nature of existence.
The meaning of life is to reproduce, which implies to survive until that age at least. Without this, there would be no continuous life and the "meaning" question cannot even be asked, as it's a question asked by living things. Or only one living thing that we know of.
The why question has no answer nor will it ever have an answer. Life doesn't need justification or orchestration. It's a freak accident of molecules. It could have never happened and it can end by means of a disaster and the universe will happily continue without it.
As to what a human can/should to with their life other than not dying and trying to reproduce, that's an entirely cultural question. Cultural is a fancy word for: we made it up.
The why question has no answer nor will it ever have an answer. Life doesn't need justification or orchestration. It's a freak accident of molecules. It could have never happened and it can end by means of a disaster and the universe will happily continue without it.
As to what a human can/should to with their life other than not dying and trying to reproduce, that's an entirely cultural question. Cultural is a fancy word for: we made it up.
> Religious scholars have actually been the best psychologists but are generally dismissed by non-believers.
Citation not required, as long as you believe, assumedly?
Citation not required, as long as you believe, assumedly?
> It’s always best to find your own path according to the religion of your parents and environment.
That ship sailed a while ago, my parents aren't religious, and I don't know any religious people.
That ship sailed a while ago, my parents aren't religious, and I don't know any religious people.
How do I get the psychological benefits without having belief? Let me lay a story on you:
I fell in love with this girl who I had known on/off for a long time. I found out she was an escort (quietly but distinctly confirmed payment-for-sex) in her spare time (she was a student when this all happened). This was really upsetting and had me very distraught. I simultaneously could see a life with her, but also felt disgusted at the escorting.
I wished I could speak with my grandfather about it. I knew he'd know what to tell me. But he had recently passed away. "Well, what did I like about Grandpa? Could I find a substitute? I need like, an old person who has reliable wisdom and experience, not just some wino who has hung on. Why isn't this a thing? An old person a community can approach for advice on..."
"Oh I think I need a priest."
When I went looking for one though, it was all about accepting Jesus into my heart and spiritual learnings and miracles that I must accept literally happened, etc. Real hard to find the "old wise person who can help me navigate this thing".
I fell in love with this girl who I had known on/off for a long time. I found out she was an escort (quietly but distinctly confirmed payment-for-sex) in her spare time (she was a student when this all happened). This was really upsetting and had me very distraught. I simultaneously could see a life with her, but also felt disgusted at the escorting.
I wished I could speak with my grandfather about it. I knew he'd know what to tell me. But he had recently passed away. "Well, what did I like about Grandpa? Could I find a substitute? I need like, an old person who has reliable wisdom and experience, not just some wino who has hung on. Why isn't this a thing? An old person a community can approach for advice on..."
"Oh I think I need a priest."
When I went looking for one though, it was all about accepting Jesus into my heart and spiritual learnings and miracles that I must accept literally happened, etc. Real hard to find the "old wise person who can help me navigate this thing".
There’s this Western conception of Buddhism that stripes away a lot of the religious beliefs—Siddhartha wasn’t divine at all, there is no Amitabha, Ksitigarbha is a folk tale. The emphasis is all on practice. Meditation, the 4 noble truths, Middle Way, etc.
This doesn’t represent true Buddhism like Asians would recognize it, but I think it does highlight how you can build a practice and adopt the world outlook without the supernatural.
A low-level Zen inspired practice may be what you’re looking for
This doesn’t represent true Buddhism like Asians would recognize it, but I think it does highlight how you can build a practice and adopt the world outlook without the supernatural.
A low-level Zen inspired practice may be what you’re looking for
> Religious scholars have actually been the best psychologists
Any sources that will back this claim? Oh wait, you don't need facts. Do you give this sort of unsolicited religious advice to everyone or do you specifically choose people who are troubled?
Any sources that will back this claim? Oh wait, you don't need facts. Do you give this sort of unsolicited religious advice to everyone or do you specifically choose people who are troubled?
They are just stating their opinion in an 100% neutral way. You are free to ignore it. People give "unsolicited advice" here all the time. It is a forum where people post things for others to read. Why do people get so easily upset whenever the word "religion" is displayed, heard or even implied?
Religion is quite a stirring theme, don't you think? I try really hard to avoid getting triggered (meant in a neutral way). It's easy to repress something, but that's not the point - people turn cynical when this happens and it just postpones the problem. One have to go deeper to really let go.
>Any sources that will back this claim? Oh wait, you don't need facts. Do you give this sort of unsolicited religious advice to everyone or do you specifically choose people who are troubled?
I mean, there's a fairly strong Darwinistic argument for the validity of certain religions. Very few belief systems have survived a hostile environment for anywhere near as long as the big religions.
If religious belief systems are "wrong" (in the sense of being useful for navigating the world, not in the sense of satisfying certain conditions of symbolic logic and reasoning), then why have these religions triumphed over secularism time and time again?
I'd still consider myself an atheist, but even then I'd be careful to be so dismissive of belief systems that have proven themselves over the course of millennia to be incredibly powerful, enlightening and enriching.
I mean, there's a fairly strong Darwinistic argument for the validity of certain religions. Very few belief systems have survived a hostile environment for anywhere near as long as the big religions.
If religious belief systems are "wrong" (in the sense of being useful for navigating the world, not in the sense of satisfying certain conditions of symbolic logic and reasoning), then why have these religions triumphed over secularism time and time again?
I'd still consider myself an atheist, but even then I'd be careful to be so dismissive of belief systems that have proven themselves over the course of millennia to be incredibly powerful, enlightening and enriching.
After reading through all the Dune books, I built up quite some awe for the catholic church. I'm not a believer, but this is fascinating how such an institution can survive for such a long time. I'm really wondering what happed behind closed doors or just things that we don't know that they pulled off to keep power. This is not meant as a critique.
> I mean, there's a fairly strong Darwinistic argument for the validity of certain religions
I always find it ironic when the "Facts and Reason" branch of atheism pretends that we would all be driving flying cars in a peaceful utopia if it weren't for pesky religion.
I always find it ironic when the "Facts and Reason" branch of atheism pretends that we would all be driving flying cars in a peaceful utopia if it weren't for pesky religion.
> If religious belief systems are "wrong" (in the sense of being useful for navigating the world, not in the sense of satisfying certain conditions of symbolic logic and reasoning), then why have these religions triumphed over secularism time and time again?
To be fair, a lot of them spread by the sword. Convert or we kill your tribe. Some of them explicitly call out in their texts that it's OK to forcibly convert or murder non-believers, an attribute which is, I'm sure, a helpful "evolutionary gene" for the religion's spread. There are also religions with non-violent, but still coercive conversion, where there are non-death-related social consequences for nonbelievers.
To be fair, a lot of them spread by the sword. Convert or we kill your tribe. Some of them explicitly call out in their texts that it's OK to forcibly convert or murder non-believers, an attribute which is, I'm sure, a helpful "evolutionary gene" for the religion's spread. There are also religions with non-violent, but still coercive conversion, where there are non-death-related social consequences for nonbelievers.
> why have these religions triumphed over secularism time and time again
I'm intrigued to understand your definition of "triumphed", as given the rest of the post I'm assuming you're not referring to the genocide of non-believers, which is, of course, precisely how the major religions achieved such longevity.
I'm intrigued to understand your definition of "triumphed", as given the rest of the post I'm assuming you're not referring to the genocide of non-believers, which is, of course, precisely how the major religions achieved such longevity.
Just because something is good for the group, doesn't mean it's good for an individual.
That's a very Christian idea. Christianity is (was) the religion of slaves, and outcasts. The whole ethic is that the individual is divinely (infinitely) valuable, despite circumstances on earth.
It doesn't take much of a leap to go from "I am valuable [because G-d says so]", to "I deserve to be equal to my fellow man, free to make my own choices".
It doesn't take much of a leap to go from "I am valuable [because G-d says so]", to "I deserve to be equal to my fellow man, free to make my own choices".
Weird approach to attack the substance of this sentence, since psychology is the most vague of sciences.
There's no substance in the sentence I quoted. That's what I pointed out. I haven't expressed any opinions regarding psychology.
> since psychology is the most vague of sciences
But since you make this claim, we can talk about it. So what's your advice? See religious scholars instead of board certified psychologists?
> since psychology is the most vague of sciences
But since you make this claim, we can talk about it. So what's your advice? See religious scholars instead of board certified psychologists?
My advice is to keep an open mind to the possibility of someone having some level of wisdom without having an official degree™
And yes, I used the word wisdom on purpose :)
And yes, I used the word wisdom on purpose :)
Depends on how you understand 'science'. I wouldn't describe empirical science as 'vague'. It doesn't aim for the core of a thing like other fields do. I mean, things are changing, but the goal for most psychologists is to help people.
To be fair, the parent made the claim.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and all that.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and all that.
If you read psychological works by ancient religious scholars you’ll understand. They delve extremely deeply and insightfully inside one’s soul. True: they didn’t use Chi-squared tests so you’ll not find that. But have you actually read anything of this?
You're making an assumption that 'they understood'. Humans have a lot of insight, but at the end of the day a deep understanding of everything is mathematically impossible.
How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Nihilism.
How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Nihilism.
>psychological works by ancient religious scholars
Could you recommend some?
Could you recommend some?
I don’t know your background but the Midrash.
Unnecessarily aggressive and rude. This just reads like you feel superior to religious people
I have no issues with religious people. I do however have issues with "missionary" types popping up around people who are vulnerable, trying to convince them with completely baseless claims of wellness.
Considering the vast majority of people who have overcome addictions with the help of religion and a religious community, "completely baseless claims of wellness" is pretty exaggerated no?
Any citation on the vast majority of people who have overcome convictions have done it with religion? I don't think court ordered AA really counts.
This seems pretty interesting https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6759672/ . I didn't read the full paper, but based off the introduction it seems to be a study of how religion helps people overcome addition.
The study was done by someone from the Institute for Studies of Religion. I am not convinced.
My comment was in no way missionary. In fact I didn’t even mention one specific religion and suggested that you investigate your ancestors instead and find your path.
Do you have a problem with secular psychologists offering help to people in need?
People that have gone through horrible circumstances can, and often do, benefit greatly from the moral certainty that religion provides.
People that have gone through horrible circumstances can, and often do, benefit greatly from the moral certainty that religion provides.
Which morality is that?
Individuals love to look at individual bits of morality in said books in a choose your own adventure exploration. As much as the moral certainty says be nice to others, it will also contain many bits that are highly questionable and would deeply conflict with others views.
In general secular psychologists don't come with the violent historical baggage that religions do.
Individuals love to look at individual bits of morality in said books in a choose your own adventure exploration. As much as the moral certainty says be nice to others, it will also contain many bits that are highly questionable and would deeply conflict with others views.
In general secular psychologists don't come with the violent historical baggage that religions do.
>Which morality is that?
Who cares? It gets drug addicts clean and criminals reformed.
Who cares? It gets drug addicts clean and criminals reformed.
And turns them in to extremists that attack and kill others? It turns out there are many cares in which system of morality one chooses.
>And turns them in to extremists that attack and kill others?
I'd be curious to see the stats on that.
I'd be curious to see the stats on that.
Secular psychologists don't ask you to believe in deities for them to work
There is no more moral certainty in religion than on the Sunday paper.
It makes him sound like a 16 year old who just smoked his first Christopher Hitchens.
I’m sure I’ve read a few dozen of the same old AA debates on HN, but, yeah it worked for my old man.
AA, in particular the serenity prayer, has at least some overlap with the more tech friendly pursuit of Stoic philosophy.
“God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.”
AA, in particular the serenity prayer, has at least some overlap with the more tech friendly pursuit of Stoic philosophy.
“God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.”
Quoted in Robert Sapolsky's book "Why Zebra don't get ulcers" on stress (highly recommended).
It's a nice quote because it is a bit more interesting than common popular wisdom that exists across humanity and in all religions simply telling you : "Accept what you cannot change"
That is often elided even more by "Accept your situation" or even "Obey" providing great convenience to the powers that be.
It's a nice quote because it is a bit more interesting than common popular wisdom that exists across humanity and in all religions simply telling you : "Accept what you cannot change"
That is often elided even more by "Accept your situation" or even "Obey" providing great convenience to the powers that be.
My issue with AA is that people can seek attention by relapsing. Going cold turkey and never drinking again is the simple solution and it doesn't require all the drama.
This is actually dangerous advice for a lot of forms of addiction... You MUSTN'T quit certain substances cold turkey, especially after prolonged abuse, because the intake of them are part of the body's homeostasis.
It's also very inconsiderate... Addiction generally has much deeper roots than just "craving the high" since it can be maladaptive coping mechanisms people develop due to traumatic childhoods (or later life, but less likely). Eg, substance abuse/addiction is commonly found in people who suffer from CPTSD.
The high isn't "I'm having the time of my life" for these people, but a a way to disconnect and silence their brain demons.
Also, a lot of people don't know they were abused or neglected as children (becaus it's "their normal") and then go through life as struggling with all sorts of internalised shit.
Edit: Also a very important thing I want to put out there: if anyone struggling with addition reads this, addiction isn't something to be ashamed of or to put yourself down over. It might not be your fault. But most addictions are maladaptive, and the sooner resolved the more you will get out of life. Don't be ashamed of yourself, and don't hate yourself for it
It's also very inconsiderate... Addiction generally has much deeper roots than just "craving the high" since it can be maladaptive coping mechanisms people develop due to traumatic childhoods (or later life, but less likely). Eg, substance abuse/addiction is commonly found in people who suffer from CPTSD.
The high isn't "I'm having the time of my life" for these people, but a a way to disconnect and silence their brain demons.
Also, a lot of people don't know they were abused or neglected as children (becaus it's "their normal") and then go through life as struggling with all sorts of internalised shit.
Edit: Also a very important thing I want to put out there: if anyone struggling with addition reads this, addiction isn't something to be ashamed of or to put yourself down over. It might not be your fault. But most addictions are maladaptive, and the sooner resolved the more you will get out of life. Don't be ashamed of yourself, and don't hate yourself for it
You are reading a lot more into my comment that isn't there. I am specifically talking about alcohol as the comment is about AA. AA generally recommends stopping cold turkey, so you are also contradicting AA.
I was an alcoholic and now I am not. I don't think it is easy but it is relatively simple. A lot of stuff that is glommed onto recovery from alcoholism obscures the fact that you have to stop using the drug, that is fundamental. Anything that unintentionally encourages relapse is not useful.
I was an alcoholic and now I am not. I don't think it is easy but it is relatively simple. A lot of stuff that is glommed onto recovery from alcoholism obscures the fact that you have to stop using the drug, that is fundamental. Anything that unintentionally encourages relapse is not useful.
Then AA is wrong.
For many drinkers, suddenly stopping can be life threatening, causing seizures and convulsions.
I also stopped drinking, effectively cold turkey - but I wasn't a very heavy drinker, just a habitual one. However, I rejected AA as far too prescriptive in its approach.
For anyone reading this who is considering quitting alcohol I recommend r/stopdrinking on reddit, which is an incredibly friendly and supportive place where people practice and discuss a variety of methods.
For many drinkers, suddenly stopping can be life threatening, causing seizures and convulsions.
I also stopped drinking, effectively cold turkey - but I wasn't a very heavy drinker, just a habitual one. However, I rejected AA as far too prescriptive in its approach.
For anyone reading this who is considering quitting alcohol I recommend r/stopdrinking on reddit, which is an incredibly friendly and supportive place where people practice and discuss a variety of methods.
For some heavy and consistent drinkers, they should check themselves into a hospital or clinic when they quit. But the vast majority of alcoholics will not develop delerium tremens when they quit. I personally worried about DT when I was drinking a six pack per day and used it as an excuse to never miss a day of drinking. I am probably not alone in my neurosis so telling people that they are likely to develop severe alcohol withdrawal is probably not a good way to help them to quit.
Surmounting all of this is very much like a lot of difficult tasks - often made more difficult by well-meaning people who want to point out all the difficulties you hadn't considered yet. What we need is more resources like: do you drink this much? Go to this clinic when you quit. Worried? Then quit sooner rather than later when you are drinking even more.
Surmounting all of this is very much like a lot of difficult tasks - often made more difficult by well-meaning people who want to point out all the difficulties you hadn't considered yet. What we need is more resources like: do you drink this much? Go to this clinic when you quit. Worried? Then quit sooner rather than later when you are drinking even more.
I think I agree with your intent and sentiment, and you're definitely right that people make excuses when it comes to quitting (and relapsing).
But IMO more often than not, we should't be flippant or dismissive about the excuses (for relapses or for continuing to use).
For some people, maladaptive coping—and all its consequences—is a cheap price to pay compared to facing a sober existence when unequipped to deal with it.
So even if they quit cold-turkey (or just quit), they won't necessarily improve their quality of life because they don't know why they got into addiction in the first place. However, going to support groups can help meet people. Those who struggle with similar root causes of their addiction tend to cluster as well, and that can (indirectly, and with a bit of luck) help identify root causes. That was what happened with me, and I'm forever grateful to support groups.
In my case I was an adult child of narcissistic parents (ACoNs)[1] and I struggled with C-PTSD[2] all my life (I self-misdiagnosed myself many times with depression, autism, younameit) and I'll live with it forever. In a twisted and perverse way, I think drug abuse and addiction—with all the indirect suffering they caused—also saved my life. If it weren't for drugs, literally wouldn't have had any coping mechanism whatsoever. So, in cases like mine quitting cold-turkey means that the withdrawal symptoms just compounded compounded with our emotional dysregulation.
Also I want to finish with this: I am really glad you managed to turn your life around and quit using. I'm happy that you took steps to improve your life, and as cheesy as it sounds: I'm proud of you! Thank you for sharing your story; I know talking about these things isn't easy.
Stay strong!
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_parent [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_post-traumatic_stress_...
edit: wordsmithing
But IMO more often than not, we should't be flippant or dismissive about the excuses (for relapses or for continuing to use).
For some people, maladaptive coping—and all its consequences—is a cheap price to pay compared to facing a sober existence when unequipped to deal with it.
So even if they quit cold-turkey (or just quit), they won't necessarily improve their quality of life because they don't know why they got into addiction in the first place. However, going to support groups can help meet people. Those who struggle with similar root causes of their addiction tend to cluster as well, and that can (indirectly, and with a bit of luck) help identify root causes. That was what happened with me, and I'm forever grateful to support groups.
In my case I was an adult child of narcissistic parents (ACoNs)[1] and I struggled with C-PTSD[2] all my life (I self-misdiagnosed myself many times with depression, autism, younameit) and I'll live with it forever. In a twisted and perverse way, I think drug abuse and addiction—with all the indirect suffering they caused—also saved my life. If it weren't for drugs, literally wouldn't have had any coping mechanism whatsoever. So, in cases like mine quitting cold-turkey means that the withdrawal symptoms just compounded compounded with our emotional dysregulation.
Also I want to finish with this: I am really glad you managed to turn your life around and quit using. I'm happy that you took steps to improve your life, and as cheesy as it sounds: I'm proud of you! Thank you for sharing your story; I know talking about these things isn't easy.
Stay strong!
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_parent [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_post-traumatic_stress_...
edit: wordsmithing
Simple isn't easy. Losing weight is simple, just eat less than what your caloric expenditure per day is. It's still hard as fuck and just telling someone who has issues with eating "just eat less, it's simple" is not helpful at all.
Going cold turkey and never doing X is the simple solution for any addiction, now get addicted to anything and try that out...
Going cold turkey and never doing X is the simple solution for any addiction, now get addicted to anything and try that out...
I agree it is not easy, but for me it is better to approach it simply. It may be that the best way to eat less for an individual is to fast, or to eat five small meals, or whatever program they use. But advising people that it is next to impossible has never worked.
I have been addicted to cigarettes and alcohol. Going cold turkey is essential for getting over the addictions. Never doing them again makes relapse unlikely. These are simple facts. AA says you can't really achieve independence you have to replace it with meetings and prayer. I say you can get over it. And I have experience with people who go back and forth to AA relapsing, and so how will they ever get free?
I have been addicted to cigarettes and alcohol. Going cold turkey is essential for getting over the addictions. Never doing them again makes relapse unlikely. These are simple facts. AA says you can't really achieve independence you have to replace it with meetings and prayer. I say you can get over it. And I have experience with people who go back and forth to AA relapsing, and so how will they ever get free?
Interesting take. Is it from experience or an ego boost by comparing yourself to those who have relapsed ?
Can you ask more politely or are you dissing me intentionally?
Saying
> Going cold turkey and never drinking again is the simple solution and it doesn't require all the drama
is very impolite to everyone who has ever struggled with any addiction.
> Going cold turkey and never drinking again is the simple solution and it doesn't require all the drama
is very impolite to everyone who has ever struggled with any addiction.
Coming at this as both someone who’s addicted to tobacco and has ADHD, I’ve spent a good chunk of my life having people naively (at best) or condescendingly (at worst) tell me things like:
- you just need to quit cold turkey, how hard can it possibly be to not do something?
- have you tried focusing?
- you should try making todo lists!
- if you would just sit still and listen, you could do better on your homework!
While I do agree that the parent wasn’t the most polite, comments like yours definitely fall somewhere in the naive-condescending spectrum and I read the parent’s comment as trying to figure which end of that spectrum it came from.
- you just need to quit cold turkey, how hard can it possibly be to not do something?
- have you tried focusing?
- you should try making todo lists!
- if you would just sit still and listen, you could do better on your homework!
While I do agree that the parent wasn’t the most polite, comments like yours definitely fall somewhere in the naive-condescending spectrum and I read the parent’s comment as trying to figure which end of that spectrum it came from.
I agree with you that telling people to do things that do not work for them is not helpful. However, there is no substance you can stop taking to cure your ADHD.
Any advice for an alcoholic that does not include "stop drinking" is not good advice. Every alcohol-related problem stems from the alcohol. It may not be everything needed for their recovery, but it has to be the basis. AA at least gets this right. However, AA paints a picture of addicts as people who are unable to ever get this aspect of their life under control. Unlike non-drinkers, AA alcoholics are always fighting the demon Alcohol. The organization does not believe in full recovery. Sometimes I have read a no-true-Scotsman formulation which says that if you can survive sober without AA, then you were not really an alcoholic. How is this helpful?
I think the proof is really in the pudding. AA has a lot of former members who still do not drink. These are people who quit drinking and eventually found the meetings unhelpful.
I live without fear of relapse. This is because I know that I will never "need" alcohol again.
To address the other side of what you are talking about, I hope that one day I will be able to live properly with ADHD. As of yet, we have not found an approach that generally works. Stimulants are helpful but they are a band-aid on the problem and have side effects. Behavioral therapy is helpful, too, albeit a bit mild in effect. I hope that when a good approach is developed, I will have the sense to try it.
Any advice for an alcoholic that does not include "stop drinking" is not good advice. Every alcohol-related problem stems from the alcohol. It may not be everything needed for their recovery, but it has to be the basis. AA at least gets this right. However, AA paints a picture of addicts as people who are unable to ever get this aspect of their life under control. Unlike non-drinkers, AA alcoholics are always fighting the demon Alcohol. The organization does not believe in full recovery. Sometimes I have read a no-true-Scotsman formulation which says that if you can survive sober without AA, then you were not really an alcoholic. How is this helpful?
I think the proof is really in the pudding. AA has a lot of former members who still do not drink. These are people who quit drinking and eventually found the meetings unhelpful.
I live without fear of relapse. This is because I know that I will never "need" alcohol again.
To address the other side of what you are talking about, I hope that one day I will be able to live properly with ADHD. As of yet, we have not found an approach that generally works. Stimulants are helpful but they are a band-aid on the problem and have side effects. Behavioral therapy is helpful, too, albeit a bit mild in effect. I hope that when a good approach is developed, I will have the sense to try it.
It is a rather controversial statement. I have more consideration for a controversial statement from somebody who knows what he is talking about (and provide arguments/anecdote) than from someone making a moral judgment. It was rather a challenge to your statement with a conditional diss to force you two elaborate.
That's like the simple solution for depression: think happy thoughts. Addiction rewires your brain so that simply stopping is a very heavy lift. Not impossible, but relapses are common and there's usually drama, AA or no.
>alcoholics are just doing it for attention
What an incredibly garbage take. Not genetics, having alcoholic family, none of that? You just distill it to that?
What an incredibly garbage take. Not genetics, having alcoholic family, none of that? You just distill it to that?
I actually did not write that, thank you. A "garbage take" is, for example, when you put words into someone's mouth and use that for outrage.
An alternate to religion is Meditation. IMO, a lot of spiritual practices share very similar mental mechanics (eg mantras and prayers, various forms of fasting, support networks, etc)
Got anything more specific to recommend? I'd like to read the main books of the main religions eventually out of personal culture, but they won't get to the top of the reading pile any time soon. Meanwhile, I'm sure procrastination, motivation and discipline are behaviors that religious scholars had to develop even in a pre-Internet world so I'm sure there are interesting takes written on the subject. I recall some reknown writer from a few centuries (like 16th/17th century?) writing about his struggles with procrastination and how he eliminated distractions (lol!) from his working environment.
The ancient Christian monks battled against procrastination, lack of motivation, etc.... they called it "Acedia" aka "The noon-day devil"...
Apparently the monks felt a huge urge just to sleep, rest and abandon their study around midday... it was a fairly well recognised psycho-spiritual problem in the middle ages for some monastic orders...
Apparently the monks felt a huge urge just to sleep, rest and abandon their study around midday... it was a fairly well recognised psycho-spiritual problem in the middle ages for some monastic orders...
Thanks a lot for the terminology, looking at Google's first page for "Christian monk procrastination" I'm not sure I would've found it if I even looked for it.
They're interesting inputs for Marginalia's search engine FWIW.
They're interesting inputs for Marginalia's search engine FWIW.
Check out this essay https://renovare.org/articles/self-denial-without-self-hatre...
Whereas self-indulgence is procrastination and self-denial is altruism & giving yourself (time and what not) to others?
Islam also has significant things to say on the issue. Hinduism and Buddhism likely have insights as well.
Zoroastrianism may also have something to offer here. Maybe it's time to revive it.
Zoroastrianism may also have something to offer here. Maybe it's time to revive it.
Zoroastrianism is still practiced. I met one just the other day. A quick google backs up your point though, there might only be a couple hundred thousand left.
It’s possible. I only mention what I’m familiar with.
Buddhism also has a well developed psychological system that everyone seems to ignore
I truly think Buddhism has the best offer here on addictive behavior. Detachment is a main topic, their teaching can be consumed in "secular" way (with needed to believe in any unseen phenomena), the teaching does not place much outside of oneself.
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And for atheists like me, you can still learn a lot from religions. I got a lot out of Alain de Botton's "Religion for Atheists" https://www.librarything.com/work/11370617/book/89008159
I'm not against religion, but you just want to add you don't need religion to get what I think is the good core of religions: healing stories and narratives, texts, mantras, rituals that help you in the moment, a community which shares your perspective and in the end, an explanation for existential dread, horrible things happenings and a way to get meaning.
You can find it in humanism, you can find it in secular philosophy, you can get therapy, you can find it in social political communities, it's in many places. You can even get some old bearded dude tell you what to do if that's what you need.
Religion is just one way to have faith.
You can find it in humanism, you can find it in secular philosophy, you can get therapy, you can find it in social political communities, it's in many places. You can even get some old bearded dude tell you what to do if that's what you need.
Religion is just one way to have faith.
Sure. Religion is a framework that you have to accept. There may be other perfectly valid frameworks, no doubt.
The difference is that religion is usually a known & tried way to run a society. It may be not perfect, but otherwise old religions wouldn't survive.
Meanwhile many modern replacements usually don't have any longevity. Maybe one of them will survive but only time will tell.
Meanwhile many modern replacements usually don't have any longevity. Maybe one of them will survive but only time will tell.
I thinking you're confusing causality here.
The vast majority have staying power because of two primary things. Have children, teach those children your religion. In the days before mass education and when huge numbers of children died in early age making this a memnatic was an important way for societal continuation.
This says nothing about it's continued usefulness after a paradigm shift.
The vast majority have staying power because of two primary things. Have children, teach those children your religion. In the days before mass education and when huge numbers of children died in early age making this a memnatic was an important way for societal continuation.
This says nothing about it's continued usefulness after a paradigm shift.
There's no paradigm shift yet. Procreation is still necessary for societal continuation as long as BigTech can't print babies out of nothing.
The bible is a collection of many books and resources by various authors. It contains valuable ideas and experience which have survived the centuries. Many religious people however like it to be a 'single black & white truth of the all-mighty invisible ghost who says you are a guilty person'.
For me the bible is the same as any other (old) book where people write about their life experience. A good example is 'Meditations' by Marcus Aurelius. There is a lot of wisdom in it, and I have read it more than once over the years. It makes you reflect on your own life and decisions you make.
For me the bible is the same as any other (old) book where people write about their life experience. A good example is 'Meditations' by Marcus Aurelius. There is a lot of wisdom in it, and I have read it more than once over the years. It makes you reflect on your own life and decisions you make.
I've never had anything against religion and know it is good for my family but there's just no way I'll ever get over my skepticism so it's not a choice. I think most nonreligious people are the same
>I think most nonreligious people are the same.
Having spent two years as a missionary in a majority atheist country (the Czech Republic) I'd have to say that wasn't my experience. For most Czechs, it seemed to be more of a general apathy about religion and the idea of God, not any serious skepticism or an active choice not to believe.
Having spent two years as a missionary in a majority atheist country (the Czech Republic) I'd have to say that wasn't my experience. For most Czechs, it seemed to be more of a general apathy about religion and the idea of God, not any serious skepticism or an active choice not to believe.
christianity is most certainly not the solution, therapy is
I’m going to start by absolutely agreeing with you on the second half: I have had direct personal contact with a number of addicts over the years, and in virtually all cases it started (and generally continued to be) as a way to escape or numb some kind of unaddressed trauma or other emotional pain. Victims of (childhood or adult) abuse, parental rejection for whatever reason, etc. Additionally, people who I wouldn’t categorize as addicts but rather as… acute substance abusers. The people who don’t drink all week but go to the bar with some friends and end up drinking a dozen beer.
Therapy has changed a lot of people around me’s lives for the better. Indisputably. I have seen 20-year alcoholics change virtually overnight when their abusers are finally caught and the addict-victim goes and talks it through with a therapist.
Where I’m going to disagree, though, is that this is a black and white “Christianity or therapy” issue. I’m coming at this pragmatically; I haven’t been to church in almost 20 years now and religion is virtually non-existent in my life. There’s two things, though, with religion in general that can be hugely useful for someone struggling with addiction and/or substance abuse:
- Therapy-like religious guidance. Many denominations of Christianity (and other religions, but I am not particularly familiar with the exact customs) encourage you to share your burdens with either the leadership or broader community.
- Community itself. Beyond the primary “you are destroying your body” issues with addiction, one of the worst secondary effects is the social effects. When you have a substance abuse problem, “ordinary” people will start to distance from you. This can either end up with you just isolating from the world and getting lonelier (amplifying the problem) or seeking community with whoever you can find who won’t reject you (other people with substance abuse problems… amplifying the problem)
Religion can provide these things and while it’s not for me, I have a hard time dismissing it outright. Especially since we have, as society has become more secular, mostly failed at establishing accessible community institutions that provide these things. One of the most interesting things to me is that almost every other community is generally focused around either specific activities (eg a rock climbing gym, martial arts, bird watching, knitting) or specific professions (eg software developer meet-ups). Church is one of the few places in the world that I’m likely to encounter a very broad cross-section of society.
That all being said, quality varies dramatically. There are some churches that are, to me, completely toxic and have strayed far from “bringing light into this world”.
YMMV, but it works for some people and provides exactly what they need to heal.
Therapy has changed a lot of people around me’s lives for the better. Indisputably. I have seen 20-year alcoholics change virtually overnight when their abusers are finally caught and the addict-victim goes and talks it through with a therapist.
Where I’m going to disagree, though, is that this is a black and white “Christianity or therapy” issue. I’m coming at this pragmatically; I haven’t been to church in almost 20 years now and religion is virtually non-existent in my life. There’s two things, though, with religion in general that can be hugely useful for someone struggling with addiction and/or substance abuse:
- Therapy-like religious guidance. Many denominations of Christianity (and other religions, but I am not particularly familiar with the exact customs) encourage you to share your burdens with either the leadership or broader community.
- Community itself. Beyond the primary “you are destroying your body” issues with addiction, one of the worst secondary effects is the social effects. When you have a substance abuse problem, “ordinary” people will start to distance from you. This can either end up with you just isolating from the world and getting lonelier (amplifying the problem) or seeking community with whoever you can find who won’t reject you (other people with substance abuse problems… amplifying the problem)
Religion can provide these things and while it’s not for me, I have a hard time dismissing it outright. Especially since we have, as society has become more secular, mostly failed at establishing accessible community institutions that provide these things. One of the most interesting things to me is that almost every other community is generally focused around either specific activities (eg a rock climbing gym, martial arts, bird watching, knitting) or specific professions (eg software developer meet-ups). Church is one of the few places in the world that I’m likely to encounter a very broad cross-section of society.
That all being said, quality varies dramatically. There are some churches that are, to me, completely toxic and have strayed far from “bringing light into this world”.
YMMV, but it works for some people and provides exactly what they need to heal.
I have many family and friends that are christians, and was raised christian. It's a full fledged government-subsidized cult, maybe a benign cult, but a cult nonetheless.
I think you'll find that that varies dramatically from denomination to denomination. When I was a kid, my grandparents and parents took us to a Southern Baptist church. I agree, 100%, and I'm not even sure that I'd qualify that with the word "benign" :)
In university, I dated a Lutheran (in Canada, there's two "sub-Lutheran" organizations, she was a part of the "more welcoming one") and it was a night and day difference. Not to go too far into theology, but these folks were some of the most "Christ-like" folks I have ever met. They really embodied the "be good to each other" concepts and strongly rejected the more evangelical/recruiting position that many churches take; their philosophy was "be good people, treat others kindly, feel free to have a conversation about your religion if someone asks, but don't try to guilt/shame/whatever, just be a good person."
I'm actually surprised this morning to be defending churches somewhat. It's a tragedy: the worst kind of Christians, to me, are also the most prominent and vocal. From my own understanding of the Bible and basic theology, I absolutely agree that many denominations are cult-like and have also lost their way from the teachings they purport to embody.
Meanwhile there's folks like the Lutherans I hung out with who, for lack of a better turn of phrase, are actually bringing light into the world. These folks get painted with the same brush as the... crazies.
In university, I dated a Lutheran (in Canada, there's two "sub-Lutheran" organizations, she was a part of the "more welcoming one") and it was a night and day difference. Not to go too far into theology, but these folks were some of the most "Christ-like" folks I have ever met. They really embodied the "be good to each other" concepts and strongly rejected the more evangelical/recruiting position that many churches take; their philosophy was "be good people, treat others kindly, feel free to have a conversation about your religion if someone asks, but don't try to guilt/shame/whatever, just be a good person."
I'm actually surprised this morning to be defending churches somewhat. It's a tragedy: the worst kind of Christians, to me, are also the most prominent and vocal. From my own understanding of the Bible and basic theology, I absolutely agree that many denominations are cult-like and have also lost their way from the teachings they purport to embody.
Meanwhile there's folks like the Lutherans I hung out with who, for lack of a better turn of phrase, are actually bringing light into the world. These folks get painted with the same brush as the... crazies.
my experience is with Catholicism. you dont have to do too much research to see where that went wrong.
Lol yeah...
Religious beliefes provide a strong moral compass as a semi-coherent set that lets you define stances about a lot of things in your life without having to gs through the hassle and difficulties of building them. As long as it's a serious belief and adherence to the provided guidelines and not just posturing used to justify decadent conducts.
I am not religious and personally i think is best to develop this on your own than taking a prepackaged system, but the utility and practicality of having ssmething already done and battle-tested is undeniable.
Just like you don't need to reinvent the wheel and write a complex library on your own when there's one available, sometimes is best to just use a prepackaged beliefs set and moral system to follow.
Many people are even unable to produce that on their own and epd up disparaged, aimless, living their lives without any understanding of right, wrong, good, bad, moral, immoral.
For what religions are and what they do provide, i personally think some branches of buddhism are better, like the Sokka Gakkai International's approach provides.
I don't agree with the sentence that religious scholars are the best psychologists because they only can provide guidance inside what fits this prepackaged framework-for-living they adopted, and in many many cases (i.e. mentall illnesses, deep issues, moral hardship in grey areas, etc) they are unable to effectively help in any significant way.
Good news is that psychology isn't incompatible with religion and both can coexist peacefully, and one can get the best of both worlds wathout thinking one is best; they work in different ways and provide different things, and IMO they aren't directly comparable, as a psychologist cannot help you very well in terms of religion, and a religious scholar cannot help you very well in terms of psychology (except for the thinfs that fit witin the religious framework chosen).
So all in all, i agree that religion as a valid choice and should be part of discourse, as sometimes it can very well be the best course of action.
Just don't agree with throwing blanket statements of what's best or not in a world as plastic and complex as the one we live in.
I am not religious and personally i think is best to develop this on your own than taking a prepackaged system, but the utility and practicality of having ssmething already done and battle-tested is undeniable.
Just like you don't need to reinvent the wheel and write a complex library on your own when there's one available, sometimes is best to just use a prepackaged beliefs set and moral system to follow.
Many people are even unable to produce that on their own and epd up disparaged, aimless, living their lives without any understanding of right, wrong, good, bad, moral, immoral.
For what religions are and what they do provide, i personally think some branches of buddhism are better, like the Sokka Gakkai International's approach provides.
I don't agree with the sentence that religious scholars are the best psychologists because they only can provide guidance inside what fits this prepackaged framework-for-living they adopted, and in many many cases (i.e. mentall illnesses, deep issues, moral hardship in grey areas, etc) they are unable to effectively help in any significant way.
Good news is that psychology isn't incompatible with religion and both can coexist peacefully, and one can get the best of both worlds wathout thinking one is best; they work in different ways and provide different things, and IMO they aren't directly comparable, as a psychologist cannot help you very well in terms of religion, and a religious scholar cannot help you very well in terms of psychology (except for the thinfs that fit witin the religious framework chosen).
So all in all, i agree that religion as a valid choice and should be part of discourse, as sometimes it can very well be the best course of action.
Just don't agree with throwing blanket statements of what's best or not in a world as plastic and complex as the one we live in.
There are 'religious but not spiritual' groups for those who appreciate the structure of religion in their life but who don't believe in God. Atheist Quakers are an established group, and some Jewish groups seem close to an atheistic religion.
For those of you complaining about SnowHill9902 recommending religion, please check out Optimize.me (free) for something secular. It's still, IMO, the best collection of practical self-help knowledge and insight available on the internet.
As someone who was religious when they are younger but no longer, why? I used to be a devout Christian until I went exploring the world and saw the unreal amount of massive suffering, imbedded greed etc; If god is real, he is a cruel god.
We have the technology and means to ensure every person on this earth does not go hungry and has a safe place to sleep at night. But humans do human stuff.
You probably pass plenty of homeless in your daily life and never look/think of them again. Yet somehow religion constantly preaches harmony and giving to others. Most religious people I know are inherently greedy and abide by Capitalistic morals and act as such.
I guess I could create a bubble for myself and not care about others at an inherently deep level like most humans on earth do.
What would a religious Scholar/Teachings do for me if I can plainly see that teachings are only followed when convenient or warped to fit my world narrative? What would you suggest?
We have the technology and means to ensure every person on this earth does not go hungry and has a safe place to sleep at night. But humans do human stuff.
You probably pass plenty of homeless in your daily life and never look/think of them again. Yet somehow religion constantly preaches harmony and giving to others. Most religious people I know are inherently greedy and abide by Capitalistic morals and act as such.
I guess I could create a bubble for myself and not care about others at an inherently deep level like most humans on earth do.
What would a religious Scholar/Teachings do for me if I can plainly see that teachings are only followed when convenient or warped to fit my world narrative? What would you suggest?
After the Irish Potato Famine that George Boole lived through, he worked on a paper named "Origin of Evil".
His conclusion was: Absolute evil does not exist and pain is an instrument of good.
I can't find it online, my source is the documentary "The Genius of George Boole" [1].
Kierkegaard's The Sickness unto Death [2] could be a related reading too. I remember that I enjoyed it in a fun way.
Also a dumb theory of mine is: suffering is the proof that you are still alive.
[1] https://youtu.be/Hljir_TyTEw?t=1855
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sickness_unto_Death
His conclusion was: Absolute evil does not exist and pain is an instrument of good.
I can't find it online, my source is the documentary "The Genius of George Boole" [1].
Kierkegaard's The Sickness unto Death [2] could be a related reading too. I remember that I enjoyed it in a fun way.
Also a dumb theory of mine is: suffering is the proof that you are still alive.
[1] https://youtu.be/Hljir_TyTEw?t=1855
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sickness_unto_Death
Nothing quite like fear of eternal damnation to motivate oneself.
So true. Pork is forbidden for muslims for many centuries (an awesome kind of motivation) and yet people struggled to wear masks during the Covid19 pandemic while facing own potential death, maybe killing relatives or unknown consequences (at the time).
That's a strawman.
Not really, it was a big motivator for me in three decades I wasted believing indoctrinated garbage. Thankfully I broke out of that tar pit of magical thinking.
It's a straw man in the context of using faith to battle addiction, regardless of the role it played in your personal life. Virtually no one advocates trying to scare addicts into recovery with the threat of hell.
The problem is that many people otherwise don't have motivation.
Why strive for anything? Especially when the very bare minimum for survival is already covered by community.
Why strive for anything? Especially when the very bare minimum for survival is already covered by community.
Really? The only thing that will motivate them is a baseless claim about life/suffering after death?
What else?
People are motivated by many things. They don't need fairy tales. Religion and superstition has ruled over people for thousands of years. Let's give evidenced-based approaches a few millennia before we go back to that garbage.
So far evidence-based approach seems to end up as YOLO-style approaches.
Overall culture seems to be more and more nihilistic and individualistic after dropping religion. Few people may be doing the right thing and say that we have to care about future generations. But wast majority, looking at their actions, doesn’t care.
Overall culture seems to be more and more nihilistic and individualistic after dropping religion. Few people may be doing the right thing and say that we have to care about future generations. But wast majority, looking at their actions, doesn’t care.
It may be hard to accept that the universe exists for no reason at all. You can fall in to a nihilistic trap where nothing matters. Or you can fall into a fantasy trap and say it matters for reasons that are not true.
I would rather follow a more humanistic path, that we define our own existence, and that we should attempt to minimize our own suffering.
I would rather follow a more humanistic path, that we define our own existence, and that we should attempt to minimize our own suffering.
The problem is if enough people go full-nihilist, society crumbles.
Same for minimising one's suffering. A healthy society requires a lot of sacrifice from individuals, even with today's technology.
Same for minimising one's suffering. A healthy society requires a lot of sacrifice from individuals, even with today's technology.
Where's the evidence that lies are better to prevent this nihilistic crumbling of society?
If people would believe religion stuff, it’s be pretty easy to motivate them to clean up the damn planet. Of course, given that the leaders would sign off on that.
Can you be a little more specific?
Yikes
I have this problem too. The thing I've noticed about the people that do have focus is that they tend to work strictly 9-6 only. If I have a task to do at 3pm my excuse for distraction is that I'll just work late again or work on the weekend, so I have lots of time. If I know I have to leave at 6pm for an event I'll focus and get the task done. Working from home has been a huge problem as its hard to define boundaries and working after dinner or weekends has become normal (when I say working I mean browsing of course)
You're speaking for many people in your situation, but my question would be, do you really feel good doing what you're doing? Especially when the day is over and you get into bed, do you have moments of hating yourself for wasting the day? If that "regret" occurs to you, then that should be your motivation to not indulge (if you can call it that) in the activities that are not useful or beneficial for your future.
When you stop being able to participate, know anything about, learn about, or do anything else in a community without the internet, what other choice do you have?
Okay, this might get downvoted, but posts like this are exactly why my co-founder wrote a big series on addiction in general and Internet addiction in particular.
For what it's worth, here it is: https://www.deprocrastination.co/blog/what-is-addiction
Happy to answer any comments, questions, etc
For what it's worth, here it is: https://www.deprocrastination.co/blog/what-is-addiction
Happy to answer any comments, questions, etc
I'm curious to know whether OP has experienced full on addiction to substances, gambling or sex. Because what he's describing does not seem to be any of those things, more about complaints that Youtube's recommendation algorithm is causing him to stay on that platform for hours. I don't know what other "pleasures' he is alluding to but I could infer here and say OP is male and he is probably referring to internet pornography.
All of these things could very well be what you end up doing but its really up to the individual to make the choices and change. You can't really do this reading an article like this nor can you find any solace by identifying others with your problem because it quickly becomes Wounded Club.
Instead of growing wiser, you stay wounded, thinking there is something wrong with you and you just end up like OP, watching youtube for hours on end, reading hackernews/reddit comments. If this is something you like to change then you need to take action. Without action all the advice in the world will do you squat.
Unfortunately, as of late, its become fashionable and quite profitable to humblebrag about non-issues. Do you really think that if OP's behavior is possible if their life depended on it? I think not.
One is too lazy to make a change then who's at fault? You can throw whatever 4 letter medical term and write entire books on it. It won't matter. If it is to be then its up to me.
All of these things could very well be what you end up doing but its really up to the individual to make the choices and change. You can't really do this reading an article like this nor can you find any solace by identifying others with your problem because it quickly becomes Wounded Club.
Instead of growing wiser, you stay wounded, thinking there is something wrong with you and you just end up like OP, watching youtube for hours on end, reading hackernews/reddit comments. If this is something you like to change then you need to take action. Without action all the advice in the world will do you squat.
Unfortunately, as of late, its become fashionable and quite profitable to humblebrag about non-issues. Do you really think that if OP's behavior is possible if their life depended on it? I think not.
One is too lazy to make a change then who's at fault? You can throw whatever 4 letter medical term and write entire books on it. It won't matter. If it is to be then its up to me.
You're largely right, but I think you're underestimating the cognitive deficits that come with ADHD, particularly executive function.
The key to breaking through mental barriers as an ADHD-sufferer is usually not more will-power or less laziness, though one must at least want to change. The key is externalization -- that is, building external cues, props, and guardrails into one's life to help one stay on task in the moment - whether that means doing work or resting. We have trouble doing both proportionately.
Some people say they've had great success taking time every Sunday evening to review the past week and make adjustments -- whether that be putting a post-it note on the computer, installing a browser extension, setting a series of reminders, or any number of innovative ideas. Whatever helps you externalize the decisions you'll need to make in the moment.
The key to breaking through mental barriers as an ADHD-sufferer is usually not more will-power or less laziness, though one must at least want to change. The key is externalization -- that is, building external cues, props, and guardrails into one's life to help one stay on task in the moment - whether that means doing work or resting. We have trouble doing both proportionately.
Some people say they've had great success taking time every Sunday evening to review the past week and make adjustments -- whether that be putting a post-it note on the computer, installing a browser extension, setting a series of reminders, or any number of innovative ideas. Whatever helps you externalize the decisions you'll need to make in the moment.
I didn't mean to take a swipe at ADHD but point out that dwelling on problems isn't going change things. I'm glad you laid out actually a really good solution.
Curious to know where you got this strategy from, think its a great!
Curious to know where you got this strategy from, think its a great!
Your critique of this "Wounded Club" mentality is well placed and well taken but man this is like the least sympathetic response possible.
Yes, we should take responsibility for improving our lives, especially in the face of clear signals that a change is needed. But, did it occur to you that this post was indeed OP taking responsibility for their suffering and a first step towards improvement?
It takes a significant measure of courage and vulnerability to publish this confession OP has written. We can be pedantic about whether or not OP is clinically addicted to anything, but I see this post as a positive step in the same direction of healing/improvement you emphasized.
Yes, we should take responsibility for improving our lives, especially in the face of clear signals that a change is needed. But, did it occur to you that this post was indeed OP taking responsibility for their suffering and a first step towards improvement?
It takes a significant measure of courage and vulnerability to publish this confession OP has written. We can be pedantic about whether or not OP is clinically addicted to anything, but I see this post as a positive step in the same direction of healing/improvement you emphasized.
I can recommend the browser extension unhook. Going to youtube and seeing no recommendations forces you to use it as a tool. Searching for specific things and not letting yourself be led by recommendations changed the way I use it. Additionally to that I also have separate browser profiles. On my work profile I block youtube entirely
One more confirmation that our mission with Murmel (https://murmel.social) is on the right track. I want to see a world where people spend less tiem on social media (doom scrolling on Twitter, in particular), and more tiem outseide, or with friends and family.
In 2016, after a few years with bitcoin as my main obsession, I did something similar. Blocked bitcointalk.com at my router and on my phone using an Adblock program. Took me a few months to lose the urge to look at the drama/bs happening on that site and forget about "crypto." So glad I did.
I don't know where you are located, but I know for sure where you are not located: Ukraine. Modern world problem can always be solved with Ancient problems: Live threatening issues, people depending on you, etc. You should fine a meaning for your life. Move away from the inertia.
I know these compulsive behaviors arent good but these are first world problems compared to like a substance addiction where stopping without help could kill you and getting hekp could bankrupt you. We need a different word for this than addiction because it really diminishes it.
For others that have problems with this, there is an Internet and Technology Addicts Anonymous group that has helped me quiet a bit. See here: https://internetaddictsanonymous.org/
This is why I'm building SocialsDetox. Tarun - if you register your interest (see about) I'll set you up with an account when it's ready for testing. With your help hopefully arriving at a method(s) to wean off Social Media, as opposed to cold turkey.
I'm still not convinced that the symptoms described in the article can be considered a disorder, any more than 'not exercising' can be a disorder. He's choosing to do certain things and not do other things. The consequences are bad. But is that a mental illness problem, or just that the consequences aren't bad enough, the behavior not repugnant enough, and thus he doesn't care enough? With a gun to his head, would he do his errands? Under threat of immediate termination from work? I'm guessing yes. So at what point is that a mental disorder and not just him deciding to not do things he doesn't want to do?
Philosophically, how can we say that a person's poor choices of behavior are mental disorders when they don't even lead to life threatening outcomes? Is smoking a mental disorder? He wishes he could quit, but keeps buying packs. Is being fat a mental disorder? He wishes he was thin, but doesn't exercise and keeps eating pizza. Is simply not grinding leetcode a mental disorder? He wants a higher salary, yet doesn't even practice leetcode or interview questions.
He wants to stop procrastinating his work, but he watches YouTube instead until all the work simply must be done in a long all-nighter. Is this a mental disorder? Apparently to a lot of people, yes, this is ADHD! You need lifelong medication now; your brain doesn't work right! No, this doesn't sound quite right to me.
Addiction is real, and he likely really is addicted to the internet. That's a real problem he should fix. And it may be that ADHD medication helps him fix it; I've taken Adderall for a period of time and it certainly fixed any procrastination tendencies I had as well (I don't have ADHD). But if we're going to make the case that medication helps and thus it should be taken, why do we need to pretend it's about a mental disorder? It helps me focus and perform better at work, so it should be available to me, no? Or does its help have to meet an arbitrary level of helpfulness to be permitted?
Basically, I'm not convinced ADHD is anything more than a label delineating one end of a spectrum of self determination. The cutoff seems arbitrary, and there is a lot of reverse engineering to arrive at the end result of medication: He would be helped by Adderall, thus he must have ADHD, thus his procrastination is actually a mental disorder and not just being lazy. We can go down that road as a society, but I prefer the road where we just collectively admit, "Yeah I'm lazy so I take a pill and it helps," without the veneer of noble medicine curing Real Disorders.
Philosophically, how can we say that a person's poor choices of behavior are mental disorders when they don't even lead to life threatening outcomes? Is smoking a mental disorder? He wishes he could quit, but keeps buying packs. Is being fat a mental disorder? He wishes he was thin, but doesn't exercise and keeps eating pizza. Is simply not grinding leetcode a mental disorder? He wants a higher salary, yet doesn't even practice leetcode or interview questions.
He wants to stop procrastinating his work, but he watches YouTube instead until all the work simply must be done in a long all-nighter. Is this a mental disorder? Apparently to a lot of people, yes, this is ADHD! You need lifelong medication now; your brain doesn't work right! No, this doesn't sound quite right to me.
Addiction is real, and he likely really is addicted to the internet. That's a real problem he should fix. And it may be that ADHD medication helps him fix it; I've taken Adderall for a period of time and it certainly fixed any procrastination tendencies I had as well (I don't have ADHD). But if we're going to make the case that medication helps and thus it should be taken, why do we need to pretend it's about a mental disorder? It helps me focus and perform better at work, so it should be available to me, no? Or does its help have to meet an arbitrary level of helpfulness to be permitted?
Basically, I'm not convinced ADHD is anything more than a label delineating one end of a spectrum of self determination. The cutoff seems arbitrary, and there is a lot of reverse engineering to arrive at the end result of medication: He would be helped by Adderall, thus he must have ADHD, thus his procrastination is actually a mental disorder and not just being lazy. We can go down that road as a society, but I prefer the road where we just collectively admit, "Yeah I'm lazy so I take a pill and it helps," without the veneer of noble medicine curing Real Disorders.
I'm confused by this..
"over 6 hours watching youtube videos, an hour of reading through comments[1] on hacker news, 3 hours of sleep and poof, the day is gone."
The day is only 10 hours long? Also author is only getting 3 hours of sleep per day!?!?
"over 6 hours watching youtube videos, an hour of reading through comments[1] on hacker news, 3 hours of sleep and poof, the day is gone."
The day is only 10 hours long? Also author is only getting 3 hours of sleep per day!?!?
They are speaking figuratively about the day being gone.
That does not clarify things for me.
Okay, they are not literally adding up the hours in the day and accounting for how they spend 24 hours. Obviously they didn't include eating and bathroom breaks, so we know there are omissions here. They are saying the sum total of what they feel they are accomplishing in a day is waste time on Youtube and HN, and then sleep for a short amount of time. Maybe it's 3 hours, maybe longer. Later in the post the author says they have trouble with their memory, so these numbers may not mean anything at all in an absolute sense. The point though is that the author feels like their entire day is consumed with videos.
Ok, I thought maybe the author is going to work getting 8 hours sleep etc. And spends their free time napping and watching youtube.
I thought maybe they are software dev moaning about how they are not working on their side project in addition to a job. ... Which would be crazy! If u can hold down a job, pay rent, exercise, drink water etc. without losing it then youre doing great. You dont see many builders moaning that they dont build a small house in their backyard after labouring on the building site all day.
"besides blanket ban on all things video..."
Yes, start with that. Disable animation and auto-play in any browsers you use. And only use browsers to consume content. This worked for me, and now I can't stand video or animations.
Yes, start with that. Disable animation and auto-play in any browsers you use. And only use browsers to consume content. This worked for me, and now I can't stand video or animations.
You mention self-help books and videos, but have you tried talking to a therapist? The video watching could be an avoidance behavior and they could help you figure out the reasons and how to cope if that's the case.
OP, when you were growing up, was TV your main entertainment? Fewer social interactions but many more hours on TV?
It might be a learnt behavior that you have to unlearn. Perhaps look how to unlearn something, if such a thing exists.
It might be a learnt behavior that you have to unlearn. Perhaps look how to unlearn something, if such a thing exists.
There are many things that I think that I should blanket ban, but I refuse to do so because blanket banning something makes me feel like that that something won. It makes me feel completely out of control.
This is a global phenomenon ... Almost any teenager or persons in their early twenties have a similar life. Maybe engage in an organisation where you simply cannot live like that (the army, etc) for a while ?
Hey folks. If this resonates with you at all, you really need to talk to your doctor about depression. I'm seeing a lot of textbook symptoms being mentioned in here.
- Delete your history on your desktop and mobile browsers.
- Delete shortcuts to websites that you frequent from the browser start page.
- Replace your frequently visited websites with websites you want to visit.
Rinse and repeat.
- Delete shortcuts to websites that you frequent from the browser start page.
- Replace your frequently visited websites with websites you want to visit.
Rinse and repeat.
I still get stuff done, but also lose so much time to mindless online consumption.
I read about resetting dopamine receptors, but it's quite hard. A bit like losing weight.
I read about resetting dopamine receptors, but it's quite hard. A bit like losing weight.
As an actual addict I was thinking this would be about actual addiction. It’s not.
For future reference, dicking around on the internet is not an addiction.
For future reference, dicking around on the internet is not an addiction.
OP shoot me an email if you want a sounding board from someone who is just a step or two ahead on the same path. Email is in profile.
> my memory is very, very fallible
You need sufficient sleep to make short-term memories last. Author already said he’s not getting enough sleep.
You need sufficient sleep to make short-term memories last. Author already said he’s not getting enough sleep.
Get this man some adderall! It (or other ADHD meds, like Vyvanse) is a life changer for those of us afflicted with such things.
User Retention is a trillion+ dollar industry.
At what point can we stop placing the blame on ourselves and towards those who make these products?
At what point can we stop placing the blame on ourselves and towards those who make these products?
> Getting over it: Besides blanket ban on all things video and social media, I don't think I have a better solution.
beeminder.com
beeminder.com
I see the trend growing worse. Not just teenagers, most kids nowadays are addicted to the digital junk.
Work is boring a lot of times and so natural for people to avoid work and spend attention elsewhere.
What's the solution?
What's the solution?
A couple of sessions with a psychologist or counselor can easily fix this if you want it fixed.
I have nothing constructive to add here - I just found this amusing. What can I say.. I'm a simple man. https://pasteboard.co/ZK0rNK25LqxH.jpg
You may be interested in the ACT therapy
I’ve been struggling with the same problem and found a solution that works for me. I was procrastinating up to 8 hours per day, on average.
The core idea is to make a contract with oneself to not exceed a daily budget of procrastination and implement it. Say, 4 hours per day, on average. Everything else follows from it.
There are few critical components to make this work:
1. You need to admit you have a problem that needs fixing. If you procrastinate so much, quite possibly you are depressed. Like, for realz. That's OK.
2. Self-understanding that this is a matter of survival. Either you will make this work, or your life will be truly miserable, up to and including destroying your career, relationships and health.
3. Comprehensive time tracking. If you were watching a YouTube video while eating and spent extra 5 minutes to finish off the video after you were done with your meal, you need to track these 5 minutes. If you pick up your phone in bed just to quickly scroll through pages for 3 minutes, you need to track it. I use Excel for that - very fast & easy if you know the right keyboard shortcuts.
4. You need to do the tracking _yourself_. This is to (a) increase awareness you procrastinated and (b) introduce friction to doing it.
5. Social accountability. I have a weekly session with a coach where I report if I stayed within the quota, or not. But anybody you don't want to disappoint will do.
6. You are good as long as you stay within the budget. If you spend the time you reclaimed by laying on the couch and looking at the ceiling for 3 hours - that's a huge win. More on that below.
7. As always, you cannot neglect your fundamentals: sleep, exercise, proper diet, socializing. But now you will have time to deal with it.
Once you implement this process, few observation immediately come to mind:
1. You have so much more time and mental energy. Wow.
2. If you fail to track these short 3-5 minute burst of procrastination, they quickly add up to half an hour, an hour, two hours. Hence, you really cannot slip on that. If you slip, you also won’t be able to trust yourself, which is critical.
3. You become bored with that extra time, meaning you finally have time to think and talk to yourself. I cannot overstate how important that is. You can use this time to direct your thoughts / visualize better outcomes and hence motivate yourself to do the right thing (aka Cognitive Behavioral Therapy).
4. Once you keep doing it successfully for some time, you can now trust yourself that you are in control. This is huge, because your emotions now will be on your side.
5. You become less afraid of doing productive things, because you actually have time to do them, instead of thinking "what's the point, I have 1 hour in the day left after wasting all of it, I am tired, and I will give into my procrastination cravings anyway".
6. You will sleep way more because now you cannot procrastinate in bed. This will repay your sleep debt and restore your energy levels, making everything else much easier to tackle.
Overall, this strategy works for me very well because (a) I admitted to myself I have a problem that is very serious. This means I need to seek help and develop a process to solve it. And (b) I don’t mind doing comprehensive time tracking of my procrastination time, which is a critical part of the entire process.
Further reading:
"Digital Minimalism" by Cal Newport
"Feeling Good" by David D. Burns
The core idea is to make a contract with oneself to not exceed a daily budget of procrastination and implement it. Say, 4 hours per day, on average. Everything else follows from it.
There are few critical components to make this work:
1. You need to admit you have a problem that needs fixing. If you procrastinate so much, quite possibly you are depressed. Like, for realz. That's OK.
2. Self-understanding that this is a matter of survival. Either you will make this work, or your life will be truly miserable, up to and including destroying your career, relationships and health.
3. Comprehensive time tracking. If you were watching a YouTube video while eating and spent extra 5 minutes to finish off the video after you were done with your meal, you need to track these 5 minutes. If you pick up your phone in bed just to quickly scroll through pages for 3 minutes, you need to track it. I use Excel for that - very fast & easy if you know the right keyboard shortcuts.
4. You need to do the tracking _yourself_. This is to (a) increase awareness you procrastinated and (b) introduce friction to doing it.
5. Social accountability. I have a weekly session with a coach where I report if I stayed within the quota, or not. But anybody you don't want to disappoint will do.
6. You are good as long as you stay within the budget. If you spend the time you reclaimed by laying on the couch and looking at the ceiling for 3 hours - that's a huge win. More on that below.
7. As always, you cannot neglect your fundamentals: sleep, exercise, proper diet, socializing. But now you will have time to deal with it.
Once you implement this process, few observation immediately come to mind:
1. You have so much more time and mental energy. Wow.
2. If you fail to track these short 3-5 minute burst of procrastination, they quickly add up to half an hour, an hour, two hours. Hence, you really cannot slip on that. If you slip, you also won’t be able to trust yourself, which is critical.
3. You become bored with that extra time, meaning you finally have time to think and talk to yourself. I cannot overstate how important that is. You can use this time to direct your thoughts / visualize better outcomes and hence motivate yourself to do the right thing (aka Cognitive Behavioral Therapy).
4. Once you keep doing it successfully for some time, you can now trust yourself that you are in control. This is huge, because your emotions now will be on your side.
5. You become less afraid of doing productive things, because you actually have time to do them, instead of thinking "what's the point, I have 1 hour in the day left after wasting all of it, I am tired, and I will give into my procrastination cravings anyway".
6. You will sleep way more because now you cannot procrastinate in bed. This will repay your sleep debt and restore your energy levels, making everything else much easier to tackle.
Overall, this strategy works for me very well because (a) I admitted to myself I have a problem that is very serious. This means I need to seek help and develop a process to solve it. And (b) I don’t mind doing comprehensive time tracking of my procrastination time, which is a critical part of the entire process.
Further reading:
"Digital Minimalism" by Cal Newport
"Feeling Good" by David D. Burns
figuring out what you want to do is hard work too
Do you have a job?
> I can't trust myself. Cause: I'm simply incapable of doing things I've set out to do.
My ADHD alarms were going off right as I saw this. It is exactly how I characterized my struggles with ADHD too. If anything, I have had a point in my life when I would have written this exact same post. I have since found some reasonable solutions without medication. So, I'll post some of them here.
> Getting over it: Besides blanket ban on all things video and social media, I don't think I have a better solution
If I was a betting man, I'd bet against this working,
_______
Recommendations:
1. Don't fight your base state. If hedonism and continuous stimulation is what you are. That's fine. I literally walk around with a podcast on at all times and I watch ALL my YT subscriptions everyday. It is more wasteful to spend an entire day fighting off those urges, than to just do them in one go and get them out of the way. Those blockers/procrastination-extensions never help. I have tried. It only makes me more miserable.
2. ADHD people do a lot better with external deadlines than internal deadlines. Make small-tangible (about 50% of your capacity) daily commitments. If a task takes longer than 1 day, break it down until it seems like a '1 day' task. Communicate it in a formal settings (standups), and just like that, the fire under my proverbial butt, lights up.
3. Post-covid there is no such thing as weird working hours. If the wave of productivity hits you at 8pm, so be it. Traditional hours don't work for you, and trying to follow them will only make you more miserable. Just make sure you get your sleep and food on time.
4. Learn to give up and ask for help. ADHD people also tend to be perfectionists with weirdly strong ethics around commitments in the worst way possible. If the task has become an albatross around your neck, then ask for help. Pair program, have a white boarding session or plain old ask someone else to do it. If your rigid ethical system is blocking something critical, then it's better to be humble and move on.
5. Channel procrastination productive directions. I am known in my friends group for being the most resourceful person with encyclopedic knowledge about absolutely random things. Guess how I learned that? It has helped facilitate relationships and I get to stay at the top of my 'learning' by procrastinating. Another awesome way of procrastinating is unblocking your peers, my ADHD brain loves it. Sometimes I will use procrastination to build out the helper-package I had been planning for weeks or cleaning up old code. Not ideal, but better than nothing.
6. Do something you love. ADHD people above all, cannot do mind-numbing work. I changed my entire career direction to be in something that I loved instead of liked, and it has paid off big time. When work feels like procrastination, it is easier to finish work.
7. Pick up a deeply exhausting hobby. Drums are an amazing way for me to decompress if the ADHD side is peaking too much. I bang the living daylights out of that thing for 20 minutes, and it clears my mind up for easier work. Progmetal serves a similar use-case for me. ________
I am yet to figure out if I should get medications. I have self-medicated with a lot of coffee, but am scared of going any farther with real medication. I personally will wait until an adverse life event before choosing medication as a necessary solution. However, a few of my ADHD peers swear that they would not be able to function in society without their drugs. So yeah, maybe try some medication and things might just work out.
Lastly, watching normal people give ADHD folks recommendations is some of the most hilarious stuff ever. They simply can't fathom the complete lack of self-agency that's so central to being ADHD person.
____
My procrastination creds: (odd flex but OK)
* 100k comment karma on reddit (no memes) * 5k comment karma on HN (pure brute force) * 3 hrs/day YT videos watched on average (most of it is podcasts in downtime) * Medically diagnosed with ADHD * Was the most restless kid I've seen (undiagnosed till adulthood) * Was called 'smart, but the biggest nuisance I've had in a classroom' by professor (easter egg)
My ADHD alarms were going off right as I saw this. It is exactly how I characterized my struggles with ADHD too. If anything, I have had a point in my life when I would have written this exact same post. I have since found some reasonable solutions without medication. So, I'll post some of them here.
> Getting over it: Besides blanket ban on all things video and social media, I don't think I have a better solution
If I was a betting man, I'd bet against this working,
_______
Recommendations:
1. Don't fight your base state. If hedonism and continuous stimulation is what you are. That's fine. I literally walk around with a podcast on at all times and I watch ALL my YT subscriptions everyday. It is more wasteful to spend an entire day fighting off those urges, than to just do them in one go and get them out of the way. Those blockers/procrastination-extensions never help. I have tried. It only makes me more miserable.
2. ADHD people do a lot better with external deadlines than internal deadlines. Make small-tangible (about 50% of your capacity) daily commitments. If a task takes longer than 1 day, break it down until it seems like a '1 day' task. Communicate it in a formal settings (standups), and just like that, the fire under my proverbial butt, lights up.
3. Post-covid there is no such thing as weird working hours. If the wave of productivity hits you at 8pm, so be it. Traditional hours don't work for you, and trying to follow them will only make you more miserable. Just make sure you get your sleep and food on time.
4. Learn to give up and ask for help. ADHD people also tend to be perfectionists with weirdly strong ethics around commitments in the worst way possible. If the task has become an albatross around your neck, then ask for help. Pair program, have a white boarding session or plain old ask someone else to do it. If your rigid ethical system is blocking something critical, then it's better to be humble and move on.
5. Channel procrastination productive directions. I am known in my friends group for being the most resourceful person with encyclopedic knowledge about absolutely random things. Guess how I learned that? It has helped facilitate relationships and I get to stay at the top of my 'learning' by procrastinating. Another awesome way of procrastinating is unblocking your peers, my ADHD brain loves it. Sometimes I will use procrastination to build out the helper-package I had been planning for weeks or cleaning up old code. Not ideal, but better than nothing.
6. Do something you love. ADHD people above all, cannot do mind-numbing work. I changed my entire career direction to be in something that I loved instead of liked, and it has paid off big time. When work feels like procrastination, it is easier to finish work.
7. Pick up a deeply exhausting hobby. Drums are an amazing way for me to decompress if the ADHD side is peaking too much. I bang the living daylights out of that thing for 20 minutes, and it clears my mind up for easier work. Progmetal serves a similar use-case for me. ________
I am yet to figure out if I should get medications. I have self-medicated with a lot of coffee, but am scared of going any farther with real medication. I personally will wait until an adverse life event before choosing medication as a necessary solution. However, a few of my ADHD peers swear that they would not be able to function in society without their drugs. So yeah, maybe try some medication and things might just work out.
Lastly, watching normal people give ADHD folks recommendations is some of the most hilarious stuff ever. They simply can't fathom the complete lack of self-agency that's so central to being ADHD person.
____
My procrastination creds: (odd flex but OK)
* 100k comment karma on reddit (no memes) * 5k comment karma on HN (pure brute force) * 3 hrs/day YT videos watched on average (most of it is podcasts in downtime) * Medically diagnosed with ADHD * Was the most restless kid I've seen (undiagnosed till adulthood) * Was called 'smart, but the biggest nuisance I've had in a classroom' by professor (easter egg)
I find it surprising not seeing this more prominently mentioned in the thread so I'll leave it here: GET HELP.
Seriously, what's the next step after acknowledging you have a disease (addiction being a well documented one)? GETTING HELP to treat it.
You just established your default-mode mind isn't amenable to your wellbeing: how do you see it helping to correct itself without any outside input?
As of this week, I just tipped back into sanity after 8 months being dysfunctional, another lapse into full avoidant coping mechanisms. It was certainly not the first time of my life, but I still got it wrong: I waited too long before reaching for help. As soon as I did the tide started stabilizing, and then it reversed. It took a couple of months (and leveraged the previously acquired experience) but it is obvious to me I'm back out of it now. Sleep, screen time, inner discourse... All indicators are in the green again.
Procrastination, addictions are symptoms hinting at other root causes. Believing that you can implement measures to keep it in check goes right against the very essence of the issue (as the article perfectly illustrates), and shows you don't have the correct grasp of the situation yet. You're leaving too much to chance, and I can tell you this is absolutely inefficient.
It is not the time to be picky and stick to one single truth® either: use a policy mix. The only required part is having someone TRAINED and EXPERIMENTED in dealing with your issue supervising your efforts. Someone you see in a regular fashion, each encounter creating another rung of the ladder that will get you out of this pit. Being in this kind of interaction tremendously helps with building the inner strength that up till now was lacking. They are your source of courage and support, the dam/dyke against which you fears, doubts and uncertainties will crash and subside. So make sure you feel you can trust them and stay clear from overly intrusive ones. But don't be too scared and just go to that first appointment.
Beyond that, anything goes, ritual/habitual practices especially (building up strength over time thanks to repetition). As long as you have that one external support providing strength and continuity to your efforts, you are bound to succeed. It will take some time, but the burden will get progressively lighter and the results more stable.
In the therapeutic frameworks department, I can strongly recommend EMDR, CBT and IFS (Internal Family System). If you can find someone in your area (or remote, you can actually self-administrate EMDR under the guidance of someone!) trained in one or several of those techniques that you get on well with, you're golden. This will most likely be the most efficient time-wise, but to a certain degree most things help, so start looking up directories of practitioners or local support group.
Take care everyone.
Seriously, what's the next step after acknowledging you have a disease (addiction being a well documented one)? GETTING HELP to treat it.
You just established your default-mode mind isn't amenable to your wellbeing: how do you see it helping to correct itself without any outside input?
As of this week, I just tipped back into sanity after 8 months being dysfunctional, another lapse into full avoidant coping mechanisms. It was certainly not the first time of my life, but I still got it wrong: I waited too long before reaching for help. As soon as I did the tide started stabilizing, and then it reversed. It took a couple of months (and leveraged the previously acquired experience) but it is obvious to me I'm back out of it now. Sleep, screen time, inner discourse... All indicators are in the green again.
Procrastination, addictions are symptoms hinting at other root causes. Believing that you can implement measures to keep it in check goes right against the very essence of the issue (as the article perfectly illustrates), and shows you don't have the correct grasp of the situation yet. You're leaving too much to chance, and I can tell you this is absolutely inefficient.
It is not the time to be picky and stick to one single truth® either: use a policy mix. The only required part is having someone TRAINED and EXPERIMENTED in dealing with your issue supervising your efforts. Someone you see in a regular fashion, each encounter creating another rung of the ladder that will get you out of this pit. Being in this kind of interaction tremendously helps with building the inner strength that up till now was lacking. They are your source of courage and support, the dam/dyke against which you fears, doubts and uncertainties will crash and subside. So make sure you feel you can trust them and stay clear from overly intrusive ones. But don't be too scared and just go to that first appointment.
Beyond that, anything goes, ritual/habitual practices especially (building up strength over time thanks to repetition). As long as you have that one external support providing strength and continuity to your efforts, you are bound to succeed. It will take some time, but the burden will get progressively lighter and the results more stable.
In the therapeutic frameworks department, I can strongly recommend EMDR, CBT and IFS (Internal Family System). If you can find someone in your area (or remote, you can actually self-administrate EMDR under the guidance of someone!) trained in one or several of those techniques that you get on well with, you're golden. This will most likely be the most efficient time-wise, but to a certain degree most things help, so start looking up directories of practitioners or local support group.
Take care everyone.
My desire to read the comments sections on reddit and increasingly on here completely baffle me. If I was sat in a room and the people in there were saying things as stupid as I see on reddit I would leave that room and wonder how the hell I ended up in it. What possible reason do I have to be wasting time reading the barely formed thoughts of what must be predominantly teenagers. Yet ... I find myself back there.
I'm in my mid-30's. I quit reading Reddit because in pretty much all the subreddits I was in I started to feel old. People sound like I did 10-15 years ago when I lacked the life experience I have now.
I don't have this experience on HN really. I suspect I'm closer to the average age here. There is the occasional poor opinion but it usually gets downvoted pretty hard. Even people that I disagree with I learn a lot from. Today in this thread I learned about how classic Christianity thought about doubt for example. Of course a lot of people are anonymous here (including me) so people are much more bold with their opinions than they would be in person.
Not discounting your experience, but to me I have a very different experience on HN than I do Reddit.
I don't have this experience on HN really. I suspect I'm closer to the average age here. There is the occasional poor opinion but it usually gets downvoted pretty hard. Even people that I disagree with I learn a lot from. Today in this thread I learned about how classic Christianity thought about doubt for example. Of course a lot of people are anonymous here (including me) so people are much more bold with their opinions than they would be in person.
Not discounting your experience, but to me I have a very different experience on HN than I do Reddit.
Similar experience for me, on average reddit feels like people confidently speaking on topics they've not actually participated in much yet (if at all). Which reminds me wholeheartedly of myself when I was younger.
When I was in my teens, I would tell engine builders on a car enthusiast forum that they're wrong about how a specific part goes together, because I'd seen one on google images and was pretty sure I knew better. I have grown of course, and whilst I know more about engines now, what I've truly learned is that someone who has actually done the thing probably knows how it really it is. People often base opinions on how they think things should be, when life is rarely so perfect.
When I was in my teens, I would tell engine builders on a car enthusiast forum that they're wrong about how a specific part goes together, because I'd seen one on google images and was pretty sure I knew better. I have grown of course, and whilst I know more about engines now, what I've truly learned is that someone who has actually done the thing probably knows how it really it is. People often base opinions on how they think things should be, when life is rarely so perfect.
It has been a similar experience for me but with Slashdot.
No matter what the subreddit is, it’s full of radically far left political comments. They get upvoted and any attempt to provide reason gets downvoted.
Not sure how it became this way but perhaps it’s as simple as what you say:
> People sound like I did 10-15 years ago when I lacked the life experience
They’re kids.
Or perhaps it’s more sinister and coordinated. Either way, the political component of Reddit has made me abandon it. It’s unfortunate because I used to enjoy niche subs in the same way you would any other niche forum.
Not sure how it became this way but perhaps it’s as simple as what you say:
> People sound like I did 10-15 years ago when I lacked the life experience
They’re kids.
Or perhaps it’s more sinister and coordinated. Either way, the political component of Reddit has made me abandon it. It’s unfortunate because I used to enjoy niche subs in the same way you would any other niche forum.
American Politics in general dominates almost all online conversation spaces, as someone who doesn't live there it has essentially ruined most internet forums in English for me.
I used to think people who banned politics from the dinner table were being closed minded, but I get it now, they're fucking bored of the topic, and it creates tensions that the topic is underserved of. It's the same discussion over and over again.
I used to think people who banned politics from the dinner table were being closed minded, but I get it now, they're fucking bored of the topic, and it creates tensions that the topic is underserved of. It's the same discussion over and over again.
I mean Reddit is an echo chamber in the worst possible way and it doesn't help that the admins don't understand the concept of a containment board and think if you delete the board the users and their opinions will evaporate into nothing, so you just get the same extreme groups being corralled into smaller and smaller concentrations with other extreme groups.
> No matter what the subreddit is, it’s full of radically far left political comments. They get upvoted and any attempt to provide reason gets downvoted.
Not sure how it became this way but perhaps it’s as simple as what you say
I can comment a bit about how this is achieved, and it is “achieved” because it’s worked for/not organic.
It starts with the mods being overwhelmingly far-left, from the mainstream subs to even obscure radio subs. People who post leftist #CurrentThing will almost never be banned, and people who inevitably reply will face immediate bans.
“So what? I just won’t comment” you might think, but most are unaware bans also shadowban your voting power. You’ll see the numbers change from your votes but no one else will.
This has the effect of shifting what’s “popular” in a given sub over time, further reinforcing the narrative. Lots of people go with the flow/assume what appears popular is correct, so the effects of silencing one side reach far beyond those who are banned.
I can comment a bit about how this is achieved, and it is “achieved” because it’s worked for/not organic.
It starts with the mods being overwhelmingly far-left, from the mainstream subs to even obscure radio subs. People who post leftist #CurrentThing will almost never be banned, and people who inevitably reply will face immediate bans.
“So what? I just won’t comment” you might think, but most are unaware bans also shadowban your voting power. You’ll see the numbers change from your votes but no one else will.
This has the effect of shifting what’s “popular” in a given sub over time, further reinforcing the narrative. Lots of people go with the flow/assume what appears popular is correct, so the effects of silencing one side reach far beyond those who are banned.
I'd love to hear what your definition of radical far left is.
Specific to the far-left vibe on reddit, a few things come to mind:
- Authoritarian
- Intolerant
- Pro censorship
- Naive
- Bigotry
- More emotional than logical
Advocates for sharp increases in federal-level government power and authority at the cost of individual liberties and freedoms.
Don't take me wrong here: I don't pretend that I have all the answers, that people left of center are always wrong, etc etc. I'm just describing the reddit vibe and why it's not for me.
- Authoritarian
- Intolerant
- Pro censorship
- Naive
- Bigotry
- More emotional than logical
Advocates for sharp increases in federal-level government power and authority at the cost of individual liberties and freedoms.
Don't take me wrong here: I don't pretend that I have all the answers, that people left of center are always wrong, etc etc. I'm just describing the reddit vibe and why it's not for me.
Those sound like criticism anyone can level at either "extreme" side, but the clearest definition is the rejection of capitalism. Maybe /r/latestagecapitalism and /r/antiwork start to fit those the anti-capitalist mold, but they are aren't the majority.
When I'm browsing /r/pics I don't see "seize the means of production at any cost!" for example.
These days "far left", in my opinion, seems to be levied at people who want to tax the ten or so ultra billionaires in the US, protect transgender rights, have universal health care etc.
When I'm browsing /r/pics I don't see "seize the means of production at any cost!" for example.
These days "far left", in my opinion, seems to be levied at people who want to tax the ten or so ultra billionaires in the US, protect transgender rights, have universal health care etc.
Not the parent, but still want to respond. I'd probably be seen as radical and far left myself, especially on social and environmental issues (I identify as neo-liberal though), but I'm pretty scared by how often I read calls to abandon "capitalism". It happens on almost every subreddit and even more scarry, I've heard it from other super smart younger people in person. I think some of this is to blame on corporatism in the US. Attacking capitalism as a whole strikes me as incredibly naive though and risks slaughtering the golden goose without any viable replacement.
I think it's mostly a case of people wishing utopia was achievable in their fantasy-land. But, it doesn't help that companies like Tencent have stakes in the company. If the CCP can get their hands on anything American, it'd be to their advantage to try to use it to contribute to the destabilization of our society.
You're being downvoted for bringing up politics—or maybe the "sinister and coordinated" sentence which I certainly find hard to believe. That's actually interesting since I was going to include pretty much this in my parent comment but left it out since I thought it would cause people to miss my point.
I think like a lot of people I'm moving more towards the center from the left as I get older and I find this is a point of contention with me and people on reddit. It's not only that though, it's also things like people being dogmatic about particular programming languages. I used to do that too but now I tend to see the world in grayscale. There are positives and negatives about pretty much everything.
Regardless, I think this is mostly an age thing since people remind me so much of younger self. I don't think they're even wrong necessarily but I did find myself practicing "Duty Calls" quite often: https://xkcd.com/386/
I think like a lot of people I'm moving more towards the center from the left as I get older and I find this is a point of contention with me and people on reddit. It's not only that though, it's also things like people being dogmatic about particular programming languages. I used to do that too but now I tend to see the world in grayscale. There are positives and negatives about pretty much everything.
Regardless, I think this is mostly an age thing since people remind me so much of younger self. I don't think they're even wrong necessarily but I did find myself practicing "Duty Calls" quite often: https://xkcd.com/386/
As a non-unitedstatian, the entirety of reddit seems super right wing to me.
You deserve free universal medical care.
[deleted]
It's the lack of nuance that makes any conversation far <direction>.
I was pretty left wing until the whole AOC "scarcity is a lie" wing of the party started taking over all online conversation. I'm sure the same applies to conservatives and Boebert/Greene nutjobs.
I'm sure whether you see Reddit as left or right is mostly colored by the comments and posts that stick out to you, and those are probably the ones you find crazy or distasteful.
I was pretty left wing until the whole AOC "scarcity is a lie" wing of the party started taking over all online conversation. I'm sure the same applies to conservatives and Boebert/Greene nutjobs.
I'm sure whether you see Reddit as left or right is mostly colored by the comments and posts that stick out to you, and those are probably the ones you find crazy or distasteful.
I'm more left wing because of aoc and Bernie. Bernie in particular is a great example of left wing politics that don't alienate people on race.
He's very classist though. Not wanting to give someone something doesn't mean you don't want them to have it, and he definitely conflates those two to give himself the moral high ground constantly.
I have the opposite experience. Try discussing pretty much anything (from latest news, to car repair, to salad recipes), and see how quick it goes to bashing GOP and Trump supporters. As a non-USian myself, this gets really tiring pretty quick.
A considerable chunk of the left-wing in the US would be considered right-wing almost anywhere else, so it's no surprise a non-American would see it that way (seeing how the majority of Reddit users are American)
Europeans keep saying this but Le Pen got 41.4% of the vote in France, so... you_cant_explain_that_meme.jpg
Also good to keep in mind that the US core Democratic party platform is only able to purport positions that have a reasonable chance of winning over some of the moderate right wing in the country. They're constrained by whatever the moderate right thinks (for better or worse)
Also good to keep in mind that the US core Democratic party platform is only able to purport positions that have a reasonable chance of winning over some of the moderate right wing in the country. They're constrained by whatever the moderate right thinks (for better or worse)
> Yet ... I find myself back there.
Agreed. There have been entire days where I've found myself distracted from completing otherwise pressing deadlines.
What I've found is that the activity I do first when I start my 'working day' dictates what I do. So, if I show up at work and open Hacker News or Tweetdeck, there's a not-so-insignificant chance that I'll find myself distracted one way or another for the rest of the day. However, if I stick to a set schedule, there's a good chance that I have a productive day.
What worries me is that these distractions build on one another. So, if I start on Hacker News, and stay off of it for the rest of the day, I can still find myself spending a good chunk of time going through unimportant emails or browsing various news feeds.
Agreed. There have been entire days where I've found myself distracted from completing otherwise pressing deadlines.
What I've found is that the activity I do first when I start my 'working day' dictates what I do. So, if I show up at work and open Hacker News or Tweetdeck, there's a not-so-insignificant chance that I'll find myself distracted one way or another for the rest of the day. However, if I stick to a set schedule, there's a good chance that I have a productive day.
What worries me is that these distractions build on one another. So, if I start on Hacker News, and stay off of it for the rest of the day, I can still find myself spending a good chunk of time going through unimportant emails or browsing various news feeds.
> So, if I show up at work and open Hacker News or Tweetdeck, there's a not-so-insignificant chance that I'll find myself distracted one way or another for the rest of the day. However, if I stick to a set schedule, there's a good chance that I have a productive day
Do you think this is mediated by your mental state, instead of directly causal?
I noticed this for myself: I was recently diagnosed with a CFS-like issue and a combination of drugs and identifying food triggers has made a huge difference in my level of mental energy.
I still monitor and manage it day-to-day, and I noticed that when my inflammation is up, I am a complete sucker for YouTube videos and mindlessly rescrolling through Twitter. It's been really valuable to be able to reframe the problem as downstream of something more manageable.
Do you think this is mediated by your mental state, instead of directly causal?
I noticed this for myself: I was recently diagnosed with a CFS-like issue and a combination of drugs and identifying food triggers has made a huge difference in my level of mental energy.
I still monitor and manage it day-to-day, and I noticed that when my inflammation is up, I am a complete sucker for YouTube videos and mindlessly rescrolling through Twitter. It's been really valuable to be able to reframe the problem as downstream of something more manageable.
> Do you think this is mediated by your mental state, instead of directly causal?
It’s causal. I’ve found that my productivity level is relatively constant when I maintain a routine. The quality of my work may change depending on other factors, but I still make meaningful progress.
However, if I break my routine by checking social media early on in the day, there’s a good chance that my productivity will subsequently go down.
I haven’t found anything to suggest that I am more or less likely to do this when I am, for instance, not feeling well. One caveat. I don’t have to deal with anything you have to deal with, so I can’t make an apples to apples comparison.
It’s causal. I’ve found that my productivity level is relatively constant when I maintain a routine. The quality of my work may change depending on other factors, but I still make meaningful progress.
However, if I break my routine by checking social media early on in the day, there’s a good chance that my productivity will subsequently go down.
I haven’t found anything to suggest that I am more or less likely to do this when I am, for instance, not feeling well. One caveat. I don’t have to deal with anything you have to deal with, so I can’t make an apples to apples comparison.
> One caveat. I don’t have to deal with anything you have to deal with, so I can’t make an apples to apples comparison.
Sure of course, I'm quite clear on what was going on in my case, but I was wondering how broad the dynamic might be. Thanks for your thoughts!
Sure of course, I'm quite clear on what was going on in my case, but I was wondering how broad the dynamic might be. Thanks for your thoughts!
It kind of feels like some kind of idle loop where my mind has some spare cycles and it defaults to hacker news and similar stuff, then it goes down the rabbit hole once started. Just making it a little harder to view the sites seems to help me a lot. I add 127.0.0.1 <site> to my /etc/hosts file during work hours. I find myself looking at a broken page a couple times a day without even realizing how I got there, but it allows me to avoid the rabbit hole and just get back to work.
Is there a good MacOS¹/Unix-y way to automate this? (I’m guessing a crontab that swaps two versions of /etc/hosts is my best option but maybe there’s something more elegant?)
⸻
1. I’m aware of ScreenTime, but it’s too easily overridden.
⸻
1. I’m aware of ScreenTime, but it’s too easily overridden.
I use HeyFocus: https://heyfocus.com/
I bought it when it was a 1 time $20 purchase. You can define what times you want to block (Monday - Friday from 9am-5pm, for example). You can also lock preferences for when the Focus is active so you can’t change it. There’s also options for adding breaks.
It’s worked well for me. I know a little about myself and I need something like this to force me from being distracted. Whenever I find a new site, I add it to the list of blocked sites.
You can also block apps, or whitelist sites so everything except a few sites is blocked.
I bought it when it was a 1 time $20 purchase. You can define what times you want to block (Monday - Friday from 9am-5pm, for example). You can also lock preferences for when the Focus is active so you can’t change it. There’s also options for adding breaks.
It’s worked well for me. I know a little about myself and I need something like this to force me from being distracted. Whenever I find a new site, I add it to the list of blocked sites.
You can also block apps, or whitelist sites so everything except a few sites is blocked.
I have a directory with a restricted hosts file and an empty one, and two aliases that just copy one of them to /etc
I can turn it off whenever I want with one commandline, but it’s enough to keep me from falling into the rabbit hole accidentally
I can turn it off whenever I want with one commandline, but it’s enough to keep me from falling into the rabbit hole accidentally
I think tolerance for text is much higher than real life, I mean it's just text so you filter out 80% of the rest of what face to face communication is about.
> things as stupid as I see on reddit
The majority of comments I encounter on Reddit are jokes that are at least mildly amusing, and some of them are hilarious. If I had to describe Reddit comments with one word, I’d say funny, not stupid.
The majority of comments I encounter on Reddit are jokes that are at least mildly amusing, and some of them are hilarious. If I had to describe Reddit comments with one word, I’d say funny, not stupid.
The first year I spent on Reddit I thought so too.
But those funny comments are often themselves memes, repeated in reply in similar contexts.
Reddit has become one big circle jerk to my eyes. It's why I'm on HN, because I'm addicted but hate the community on Reddit.
But those funny comments are often themselves memes, repeated in reply in similar contexts.
Reddit has become one big circle jerk to my eyes. It's why I'm on HN, because I'm addicted but hate the community on Reddit.
I’m with GP, I find most reddit comments to be immature/ignorant.
This is what bedevils me about Twitter. I'm rigorous about pruning my Following list to keep it intellectually honest, so my main feed is pretty great. I end up reading replies to thought-provoking or provocative tweets because there's often additional context or good-faith rebuttals in there.
But holy crap, those nuggets are buried among the ravings of the absolute stupidest people in the world. It feels poisonous to my epistemology, but the good stuff is _so_ valuable.
I suppose the solution is to try to pick topics that nobody cares about? This was tough when Covid was an informational lifeline, but maybe I can just change my interests from economics to... Quantum physics or something.
But holy crap, those nuggets are buried among the ravings of the absolute stupidest people in the world. It feels poisonous to my epistemology, but the good stuff is _so_ valuable.
I suppose the solution is to try to pick topics that nobody cares about? This was tough when Covid was an informational lifeline, but maybe I can just change my interests from economics to... Quantum physics or something.
An idea i had a while ago is a HN client which will only show the comments after one has completely read the article.
I don't know how to go about it yet, but could be really cool.
While at it, force all articles into something like reader-mode.
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So, here's what I'd like to have heard N years ago: try medidation (in the eastern philosophy sense). Of course, at its root meditation is just 'sitting still' (and not doing anything else); there are many things that could go in your mind while you sit still.
Or simply set aside a sacred time block where you'll do nothing but think about what you will do for the day.
Meditation lets you clear your mind of anxiety, at least for a moment (and I find this moment is extended until you can become much less anxious all the time). It lets you get face to face with anxiety and understand why you're anxious. Or why you're avoiding something (like doing chores, your work or your homework), and then you can work to address those whys -- it could be moving to a different job or simply joyfully accepting your situation. I recommend the Zen tradition simply because it's the one I'm most familiar with.
Here are some suggestions for a meditation routine: (not exactly Zen meditation I believe, I've modified it a little)
(1) Start by breathing and focus on your breath;
(2) Scan your body and see if there's anything different or painful or uncomfortable; (I mean you whole body! every muscle that you know of, if you can) also take the opportunity to relax every muscle; be aware of your environment.
(3) After you're relaxed, spend some time clearing your mind. If anything comes to mind, "archive it", like saving it to disk and freeing your RAM. Try to make your mind a peaceful, clean slate, like a still water lake.
(4) Process whatever you're feeling uncomfortable about -- camly invite and embrace your fears and anxieties, understand where they come from, let them be felt, and then you can think clearly how to address them, without anxiety, fear or suffering.
(5) (Optional) Reflect on what you've accomplished and what you need to accomplish in the near term. How do those relate to the world and the most social good.
(6) Come out of meditation, slowly. Take a deep breath and resume your day.
During this, sometimes I keep my eyes closed, half closed, or fully open (but not wandering, concentrated in a single point). This requires a large amount of concentration, and I believe you will improve your overall ability to focus with this practice. Feel free to ask questions and add suggestions :)
edit: Another important teaching I got from (secular) Buddhism is to be realistic, attuned to reality (rationalism is a great resource as well). That includes the realism of your goals. Having unrealistic goals can make you really anxious and get in your way of doing anything at all. That doesn't mean you can improve; but for example tiny bits of realistic progress can be wonders for getting a project done, compared to unrealistic expectations of being active 100% of the time. Binges and distractions come when the reality of your limited stamina or simply rate of thinking clashes with your unrealistic expectations. Relaxing, resting, can be a healthy and necessary part of your routine, without unnecessary self-hatred and suffering.
Or simply set aside a sacred time block where you'll do nothing but think about what you will do for the day.
Meditation lets you clear your mind of anxiety, at least for a moment (and I find this moment is extended until you can become much less anxious all the time). It lets you get face to face with anxiety and understand why you're anxious. Or why you're avoiding something (like doing chores, your work or your homework), and then you can work to address those whys -- it could be moving to a different job or simply joyfully accepting your situation. I recommend the Zen tradition simply because it's the one I'm most familiar with.
Here are some suggestions for a meditation routine: (not exactly Zen meditation I believe, I've modified it a little)
(1) Start by breathing and focus on your breath;
(2) Scan your body and see if there's anything different or painful or uncomfortable; (I mean you whole body! every muscle that you know of, if you can) also take the opportunity to relax every muscle; be aware of your environment.
(3) After you're relaxed, spend some time clearing your mind. If anything comes to mind, "archive it", like saving it to disk and freeing your RAM. Try to make your mind a peaceful, clean slate, like a still water lake.
(4) Process whatever you're feeling uncomfortable about -- camly invite and embrace your fears and anxieties, understand where they come from, let them be felt, and then you can think clearly how to address them, without anxiety, fear or suffering.
(5) (Optional) Reflect on what you've accomplished and what you need to accomplish in the near term. How do those relate to the world and the most social good.
(6) Come out of meditation, slowly. Take a deep breath and resume your day.
During this, sometimes I keep my eyes closed, half closed, or fully open (but not wandering, concentrated in a single point). This requires a large amount of concentration, and I believe you will improve your overall ability to focus with this practice. Feel free to ask questions and add suggestions :)
edit: Another important teaching I got from (secular) Buddhism is to be realistic, attuned to reality (rationalism is a great resource as well). That includes the realism of your goals. Having unrealistic goals can make you really anxious and get in your way of doing anything at all. That doesn't mean you can improve; but for example tiny bits of realistic progress can be wonders for getting a project done, compared to unrealistic expectations of being active 100% of the time. Binges and distractions come when the reality of your limited stamina or simply rate of thinking clashes with your unrealistic expectations. Relaxing, resting, can be a healthy and necessary part of your routine, without unnecessary self-hatred and suffering.
The internet was more addicting 20 years ago.
Not sure but anyway, 20 years ago it might have been accidentally addicting just because it was new, shiny and interesting. Today it's addicting because some people are employed full-time by large companies to make their products more addicting, and that's part of their OKRs and more ("Engagement" being one such metric that many companies try to increase religiously)
Yes. It might have been addicting too back then but no one I knew of was checking news/social networks 24/7 and was always available online.. because these things did not exist in the way they do today.
You went online to do something specific: play, research something or whatever else and you were not distracted by 500 services fighting for your attention. It was a much healthier way of consuming.
edited: grammar
You went online to do something specific: play, research something or whatever else and you were not distracted by 500 services fighting for your attention. It was a much healthier way of consuming.
edited: grammar
Having to pay for it by the minute somewhat moderated the effect back then.
20 years ago you still had to go and search if you wanted to see something. Now you have endless streams of recommendations that do the thinking for you. All you got to do now is watch and consume. And of course 20 years ago we didn't even have Youtube, it was mostly all still mostly just text.
no way, tiktok looks like one of the most addicting platforms i’ve ever seen
I see the root cause (for me atleast (used to read HN and blogs for 4 hours everyday)) is that i cant stand being with myself.
During the last two months ive been trying to not panic when i'm idle. And not take out my phone or read the nearest material i can lay my hands on.
Instead i try to accept the necesity of "falde i staver" (danish for 'falling out of presence'). When i was a kid i would often just fall into this state and just defocus with my sight and let daydreaming take over.
Basically i have a war going against effectiveness. I hold unto my right as a mammal to be inefficient and sit drooling looking at trees.
My advice on "doing something" when you have day without plans is the following: Bike in the forrest, coffee from thermos near the ocean, read newspapers at the library, talk to people at trainstations (the frequent hangouts are always open for conversations)