My second year without a job(shilin.ca)
shilin.ca
My second year without a job
https://shilin.ca/my-second-year-without-job/
954 comments
Didn't he say he started with $80,000, spent it, and is now out of money?
Presumably he now needs to either get a job asap or make some hard choices. But it sounds like the post is supposed to be a retrospective so its not surprising he isn't really talking about the future.
> I don't mean to be one of those people that shout "privilege
He literally had enough money to blow $80,000 on 2 years of unemployment. Of course he is privleged. Most people in the computer industry are. Most posters to hn are. The average person lives paycheque to paycheque and certainly doesn't have 80k just lying around in their bank account.
Presumably he now needs to either get a job asap or make some hard choices. But it sounds like the post is supposed to be a retrospective so its not surprising he isn't really talking about the future.
> I don't mean to be one of those people that shout "privilege
He literally had enough money to blow $80,000 on 2 years of unemployment. Of course he is privleged. Most people in the computer industry are. Most posters to hn are. The average person lives paycheque to paycheque and certainly doesn't have 80k just lying around in their bank account.
> But it sounds like the post is supposed to be a retrospective so its not surprising he isn't really talking about the future.
No, my specific point is that he does not sound like he needs to make hard choices, and he is alluding to continuing working on his own projects in the future. He writes:
> I made resolutions: to make $1M in revenue in 2025. Well, that's not really happening… But rest assured, I do everything possible to reach that goal rather sooner than later.
and
> blymp is the only one generating money — about $600/month — and the one I plan to continue next year. Yay!
and finishes with
> Here's to a promising year 2025. My third year without a job. A year when I give more than I receive. A year of patience. And a year of an even deeper connection with myself. Cheers!
And sure, people that make a high income job are privileged, but I was using it in the sense that you frequently see it used online, specifically that he has a backup pool of money/support somewhere, most likely family, that he conspicuously leaves out of his post.
No, my specific point is that he does not sound like he needs to make hard choices, and he is alluding to continuing working on his own projects in the future. He writes:
> I made resolutions: to make $1M in revenue in 2025. Well, that's not really happening… But rest assured, I do everything possible to reach that goal rather sooner than later.
and
> blymp is the only one generating money — about $600/month — and the one I plan to continue next year. Yay!
and finishes with
> Here's to a promising year 2025. My third year without a job. A year when I give more than I receive. A year of patience. And a year of an even deeper connection with myself. Cheers!
And sure, people that make a high income job are privileged, but I was using it in the sense that you frequently see it used online, specifically that he has a backup pool of money/support somewhere, most likely family, that he conspicuously leaves out of his post.
> my specific point is that he does not sound like he needs to make hard choices
Some people are just like that. I've been in similar moments (financially) as that guy, and as weird as it sounds, I was laughing at it. lol
I don't think me or him are immune to anxiety by any means, but that our triggers are probably different.
Some people are just like that. I've been in similar moments (financially) as that guy, and as weird as it sounds, I was laughing at it. lol
I don't think me or him are immune to anxiety by any means, but that our triggers are probably different.
Ok, there are some comments like this one and a few others that seem to be focused on his apparent lack of anxiety, or that I'm calling him out for being "privileged".
I'm primarily calling him out because his story, as written, simply makes no sense, because reality. He has no money left, and is making less money than his next rent payment, but he is talking about continuing on in the next year doing the same things he did in previous years. Except in previous years he started with 80k, and this year he's starting with 0.
I'm really not particularly interested in his anxiety triggers, I'm interested in where he will be getting money for his next rent payment. There are literally only a couple options: he's got backup support somewhere that will provide him with funds/housing/food, he plans to get some "day jobs" to fund his lifestyle (which would then severely limit his entrepreneurial time), or he plans to just ride out the eviction process where he's currently renting until being homeless. One of these must be true, and I think it's a pretty critical part of his story that he just leaves out.
I'm primarily calling him out because his story, as written, simply makes no sense, because reality. He has no money left, and is making less money than his next rent payment, but he is talking about continuing on in the next year doing the same things he did in previous years. Except in previous years he started with 80k, and this year he's starting with 0.
I'm really not particularly interested in his anxiety triggers, I'm interested in where he will be getting money for his next rent payment. There are literally only a couple options: he's got backup support somewhere that will provide him with funds/housing/food, he plans to get some "day jobs" to fund his lifestyle (which would then severely limit his entrepreneurial time), or he plans to just ride out the eviction process where he's currently renting until being homeless. One of these must be true, and I think it's a pretty critical part of his story that he just leaves out.
I don't have anything to add to that discussion itself, but I believe people thought you were talking about how he sounded because of this line:
> my specific point is that he does not sound like he needs to make hard choices
Then, a subset of those people (myself included) replied saying they wouldn't sound much different in a similar situation.
Maybe you can send your question to the author if they have a contact form/email on their website.
> my specific point is that he does not sound like he needs to make hard choices
Then, a subset of those people (myself included) replied saying they wouldn't sound much different in a similar situation.
Maybe you can send your question to the author if they have a contact form/email on their website.
There is also the option that he paid a year worth of rent in advance, which emptied his bank account, and now he has no liquidity, but has a place to stay for the next 12 months.
But you are right that this is not clarified anywhere in the post, and the math as described does not add up.
But you are right that this is not clarified anywhere in the post, and the math as described does not add up.
I also thought it was funny, because it is if you have enough self confidence.
I had an agenda with 2-3 weeks worth of planning to stay with friends and aquaintances. I would never stay at the same place for more than 1 night. The friends would tollerate it for 2 weeks or 2 months but if i limit the visit to 1 day per week, 2 weeks or a month their patience would never run out. The deal was this: you pay for shopping i clean the kitchen entirely, i Cook an elaborate meal, clean the kitchen again, sleep and leave at 8 am.
The funniest were the ones who chose to abuse the deal and turned their kitchen into a giant mess. They pretty much didnt do anything for 14 days. I vaguely knew them, we didnt get along so well but i was excited to see the mess. This looks very welcomming! I joked. Some also ordered elaborate fancy 3 course meals that took some doing. They would enjoy the elaborate candle light dinner together after a day of hard work while i slaved away in their kitchen. Fucking hilarious.
I had an agenda with 2-3 weeks worth of planning to stay with friends and aquaintances. I would never stay at the same place for more than 1 night. The friends would tollerate it for 2 weeks or 2 months but if i limit the visit to 1 day per week, 2 weeks or a month their patience would never run out. The deal was this: you pay for shopping i clean the kitchen entirely, i Cook an elaborate meal, clean the kitchen again, sleep and leave at 8 am.
The funniest were the ones who chose to abuse the deal and turned their kitchen into a giant mess. They pretty much didnt do anything for 14 days. I vaguely knew them, we didnt get along so well but i was excited to see the mess. This looks very welcomming! I joked. Some also ordered elaborate fancy 3 course meals that took some doing. They would enjoy the elaborate candle light dinner together after a day of hard work while i slaved away in their kitchen. Fucking hilarious.
I think you have a lot of movie/book material. I would watch this play out.
Can you elaborate?
Which part? The hosts often got the better end of the deal.
Today i would much enjoy a monthly elaborate dinner with my girl in exchange for 1x using a bed in a spare room i never use. Renting it out for a day for $ to a stranger is not going to happen but if it did it wouldnt cover the cost for professional cleaning plus a private cook.
I also had friends who never cook and ones who barely clean. I did whole office buildings, vacuuming a livingroom is not going to impress me.
Today i would much enjoy a monthly elaborate dinner with my girl in exchange for 1x using a bed in a spare room i never use. Renting it out for a day for $ to a stranger is not going to happen but if it did it wouldnt cover the cost for professional cleaning plus a private cook.
I also had friends who never cook and ones who barely clean. I did whole office buildings, vacuuming a livingroom is not going to impress me.
Same. Mildy curious about the homeless life, just paid the last rent I could afford when I found a job. The main concern at the time was worrying my parents.
But after you point out he's secretly a lottery winner, then what? it's not like he's trying to sell you a course on how to live like he is, or saying that you should live this way. he's just documenting his life out in the open, journaling for future generations to read how we lived during the dawn of the Internet and the rise of AI. Hopefully we don't have to read he gets thrown out on the streets and is living in a tent. Maybe he'll move back in with his mom or stay with friends if he can't find a job. or maybe he will and the story will be about corporate life. it's not a particular ostentatious "hey look at my private jet and 7 Ferraris and luxury estates in 7 countries with staff" lifestyles of the rich and famous either. He's not bragging "I went to Dubai and spent $10,000s for a hotel room". it's, "I quit my job to write software to try and make my own company so I don't have to be a corporate drone with a boss."
> Here's to a promising year 2025. My third year without a job. A year when I give more than I receive. A year of patience. And a year of an even deeper connection with myself.
He does talk about the future and seems to imply he’ll continue to not have a job.
If that’s the case, I’m with GP in wondering how he’s going to make it past January.
He does talk about the future and seems to imply he’ll continue to not have a job.
If that’s the case, I’m with GP in wondering how he’s going to make it past January.
What is he supposed to do? I'm absolutely sure he's still looking, trying his best to find a job or a permanent solution to his situation. But there's no reason to complain and whine about things he can't change.
Life is shit sometimes, when he is out, he'll be out. Or he'll find some way of generating income, and then he gets another chance.
I've been in similar situations myself, and there is absolutely no reason to get stuck up regardless how stressful and painful it is, you can only do your best and that's it.
Life is shit sometimes, when he is out, he'll be out. Or he'll find some way of generating income, and then he gets another chance.
I've been in similar situations myself, and there is absolutely no reason to get stuck up regardless how stressful and painful it is, you can only do your best and that's it.
> I'm absolutely sure he's still looking, trying his best to find a job or a permanent solution to his situation. But there's no reason to complain and whine about things he can't change.
I'm baffled by these responses. The reason we're calling him out is because he literally says he is not looking, at least for another job, in his blog post. It's not about wanting him to be stressed and anxious, it's about trying to understand how he plans to not have a job in 2025 and just continuing on doing more of the same, when in previous years he said he started with 80k, and now he's starting with 0.
I'm baffled by these responses. The reason we're calling him out is because he literally says he is not looking, at least for another job, in his blog post. It's not about wanting him to be stressed and anxious, it's about trying to understand how he plans to not have a job in 2025 and just continuing on doing more of the same, when in previous years he said he started with 80k, and now he's starting with 0.
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I read somewhere that most people in the US are definitely not paycheck to paycheck. The article I read claimed it's around 15-20% of the working population.
I saw the same stat, and felt like their definition was too restrictive (basically you had to spend 100% of your income on your bills). Usually a small amount of extra income gets spent and those people are also living paycheck to paycheck for all intents and purposes.
Well that's what paycheck to paycheck means: you barely have the ends meet for essentials. Not that you're zero after topping 401(k) and your yoga classes.
If losing your job means you won't be able to make rent this month, i'd consider that paycheque to paycheque. Like that is literally what the phrase is saying.
Whether that is because you simply dont have much money, or you spent it all on something frivilous is immaterial.
Whether that is because you simply dont have much money, or you spent it all on something frivilous is immaterial.
Yes, absolutely. I took a job where the company (a major one) effed up HR in some way where I and another person, who got hired at the same time, didn't get paid for around six weeks. He got evicted from his apartment. I had the means to keep mine. His life was ruined. Mine kept on. I believe his situation is / was far more common than mine.
My first job in NYC paid very little. I did something to my foot that required surgery and about 6 weeks on crutches. I ended up spending most of my paycheck at that time to getting car service from Brooklyn to Manhattan for work. During that time I was just spending whatever was needed to maintain the status quo. Only years later did I realize the privilege I was experiencing. During that time I remember colleagues remarking in disbelief that I was taking car service to work.
My thinking was the only alternative was the subway and no way thought I was experiencing privilege. I was just trying to keep my job.
You were being taxied to and from work for what seems like a big distance ? Yeah, for sure most people can't afford that :-)
That was my point. One is struggling with life and it may not have to do with money/resources. The struggle removes the sense of privilege from the fore front of one’s thoughts. I was spending $40 a day while earning $70 a day.
Later on I realized that for some people that would have ended their NYC experience.
So you were netting $30/day? Assuming you worked 21 days/month, that's $630/month before other expenses like food and rent. How on Earth did you survive at that rate, even with early 1990s NYC prices?
My uncle was a kinetic sculptor in NYC and he bought a condemned building in right next to the Williamsburg bridge in 1978 for $10k. I graduated college in 1991 and he still had a condemned building and had made 3 of the 4 floors into apartments. The 4th floor was original meaning a dirty, dusty, with no real facilities. The apartment was full of old broken furniture and building supplies.
He didn't want to work on the building he was doing a lot of work for the Exploratorium. His idea was to put in the 4th floor and have me try to complete the building to get a certificate of occupancy. So that is where I lived.
Williamsburg at that time was very different. One could not park on the street with out a chain to hold your car hood shut. One's battery would be stolen otherwise. The office I worked in was full of people who were concerned that I lived in that neighborhood.
So I had a very good set-up and I felt a lot of gratitude for my situation but it didn't feel much like a privilege. Sweeping the floors of that apartment was almost pointless for the first year or two...
He didn't want to work on the building he was doing a lot of work for the Exploratorium. His idea was to put in the 4th floor and have me try to complete the building to get a certificate of occupancy. So that is where I lived.
Williamsburg at that time was very different. One could not park on the street with out a chain to hold your car hood shut. One's battery would be stolen otherwise. The office I worked in was full of people who were concerned that I lived in that neighborhood.
So I had a very good set-up and I felt a lot of gratitude for my situation but it didn't feel much like a privilege. Sweeping the floors of that apartment was almost pointless for the first year or two...
You were absolutely experiencing privilege. I know you recognize it now, but hearing this is scary. This is why folks often vote Republican - they have no idea what life is like for very hard working actual poor people who would need services after breaking an ankle.
Your comment really brought it home for me.
Your comment really brought it home for me.
What can mask privilege was that I was raised by a single mother who had the privilege of trying to support 2 kids as a potter. We had good family support but it wasn’t glamourus.
> We had good family support but it wasn’t glamourus.
Now imagine that, but no family support and one of you has cancer.
Now imagine that, but no family support and one of you has cancer.
It could always be worse.
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Well, you threw 401k in there for some reason.
But living paycheck to paycheck to most people definitely does include spending one’s money on non-bill things like lotto tickets, consumer goods, restaurants, and things beyond their means.
But living paycheck to paycheck to most people definitely does include spending one’s money on non-bill things like lotto tickets, consumer goods, restaurants, and things beyond their means.
Thing is it's absolutely possible to scale up your spending to any income level. And this is indeed what happens with many people, this is how you get these NYT pieces on households struggling on $500k. If you go by this the whole expression is kinda meaningless.
There is a guy on YouTube that runs a channel called "I will teach you to be rich". Part of his content is like a call-in radio show, where people share their trainwreck expenses. It is unbelievable how people spend their money. And these are people frequently earning over 200K USD per year. If you watch more than a few episodes they all sound the same, and it is very hard to have any sympathy for their wasteful spending habits. When confronted by the host about various line items in their shared budget, the guests (invariably!) have unlimited excuses why this or that cannot be cut. Most people that I know that are earning more than 50% above median income are incredibly wasteful spenders. Most of them are in for a huge shock in their 50s when thinking about retirement.
Almost all of us are wasteful spenders in our own ways. The point of that guys show is to teach people to only spend money in ways that really matter to them. But, my matters might (likely) be your wasteful.
Maybe not any income level. Well, you can buy Twitter I suppose. But, yes, you can fly Netjets or whatever, buy supercars, have a bunch of personal staff, and eat out at Michelin-starred restaurants on a regular basis. And burn through certainly multiple $100Ks or even 6 figures annually pretty quickly.
There was once a billionaire in Brazil who blew it all.
Instead of Netjets you can own your own jet(s). Instead of restaurants you can buy them or have the chef come to your house. At the extreme end, you can start a space program.
The sky’s the limit!
Instead of Netjets you can own your own jet(s). Instead of restaurants you can buy them or have the chef come to your house. At the extreme end, you can start a space program.
The sky’s the limit!
Eating from the hand of the same chef all my life? No, thanks.
Having known (tangentially) someone with a live-in chef, I can confirm that they do not supply literally all the meals.
Yeah. I sometimes feel like I'm being a bit extravagant but it's pretty small-scale in the scheme of things. No interest in multiple homes, yachts, jets, etc. Don't even eat out all that much except when I'm relatively modestly traveling.
For all his failings I can't recall Musk ever claiming he lives paycheck to paycheck.
Because when you look at the people in those surveys who “live paycheck to paycheck,” there’s an awful lot of them who say “after we pay for the mortgage and the car loans and groceries and max out our 401ks and contribute to the vacation fund, there’s nothing left.”
It definitely does not mean lotto tickets and restaurants. People living paycheck to paycheck do not go to restaurants. If you are going to restaurants it means you have funds AFTER bare expenses. Paycheck to paycheck means just enough to survive.
We definitely live in a time when one can create their own inflation. Khaki's in the USA can range from sub $50 to $900+. One can decide what is the correct price for our pants.
It's called lifestyle creep. Housing and transportation are the two most impactful items, which can scale from $20k/yr to $20m/yr smoothly.
I think lifestyle creep is too general of a description.
The difference between $900 pants and $50 pants is more than lifestyle creep. I see it as indicative of a stratified society. Previous times had wealthy paying more for clothes but it showed in workmanship or materials.
In the words of Lucille Blutb:
How much could a banana cost, $10?
I see Lifestyle creep as an individual gradually spending more for meals and cloths
The difference between $900 pants and $50 pants is more than lifestyle creep. I see it as indicative of a stratified society. Previous times had wealthy paying more for clothes but it showed in workmanship or materials.
In the words of Lucille Blutb:
How much could a banana cost, $10?
I see Lifestyle creep as an individual gradually spending more for meals and cloths
Not that I really go to Vegas much any longer (thank the stars!) but when I did for conferences regularly, I'd go into some of the shopping malls and would be (not really literally but close) "I couldn't afford a single thing in this store!"
I bet paycheck to paycheck like most things has a range of meanings circling around the same essential thing, which is that if you do not get paid next month you cannot afford to live the same next month as you did this one.
You might be able to make ends meet by cutting the 401K and yoga classes, but if that's what you need to cut to eat the next month, what do you cut to eat the month after that?
This guy was obviously not living anywhere near paycheck to paycheck.
You might be able to make ends meet by cutting the 401K and yoga classes, but if that's what you need to cut to eat the next month, what do you cut to eat the month after that?
This guy was obviously not living anywhere near paycheck to paycheck.
Mandatory spending isn't stable either. In my 20s I had low income, but at the end of the month I'd have a bit of money left over. Then the next month my car I needed to get to work would break down or I'd need to get a new shirt to look nice enough for the dress code rules or something. So over time I went slowly into debt.
By this definition I was not living paycheque to paycheque, but my situation was definitely not good, compared up someone who made better money but spent it each month on nonessential.
By this definition I was not living paycheque to paycheque, but my situation was definitely not good, compared up someone who made better money but spent it each month on nonessential.
I think this nails the problem with using that phrase as a rallying cry. There is a difference between people whose problem is that their income is too low to be secure and people who could easily live a secure and comfortable lifestyle if they just managed their budget better.
>people who could easily live a secure and comfortable lifestyle if they just managed their budget better.
and inside that group - people who made one bad decision, and people who have neuro-divergent issues that make managing the budget more of chore than it is for someone without the issue.
and inside that group - people who made one bad decision, and people who have neuro-divergent issues that make managing the budget more of chore than it is for someone without the issue.
I'm not an English native speaker but that doesn't sound correct to me. If you need next month's paycheck in order to survive that month, for whatever reason (even if you gambled last month's money away, much less saved up for retirement or spent it on your health), that's my understanding of living paycheck to paycheck: you miss one paycheck and you're bust. (I assume you can't take it back out of that 401k thing or it wouldn't be a pension fund but a bank account. Correct me if I'm wrong about the mechanics of a 401k)
Dictionary seems to agree, Merriam Webster says: "to spend all of the money from one paycheck before receiving the next paycheck", not specifying that you can't have spent the money on semi-essentials that could perhaps be moved by a few months but you'd need to catch up with sooner or later
Dictionary seems to agree, Merriam Webster says: "to spend all of the money from one paycheck before receiving the next paycheck", not specifying that you can't have spent the money on semi-essentials that could perhaps be moved by a few months but you'd need to catch up with sooner or later
Random technical details: You can take money out of a 401k in a couple of ways that aren't retirement. The best way is an authorized reason: Up to a fairly small amount towards a first home. If you become disabled. If you are a victim of certain crimes. If you have a small (< $1000) emergency you cannot cover[0]. You can also take out that money at any time, paying a penalty on top of the tax required.
There is also a way to borrow money short term from your 401k that turns into an unauthorized withdraw if you don't pay it back in a relatively short time (a year?)
These all seem reasonable.
[0] Yes, there are rules to prevent the worst abuse, mostly limiting you to doing so once every three years, the small total, and the need to fill out paperwork explaining the unexpected cost.
There is also a way to borrow money short term from your 401k that turns into an unauthorized withdraw if you don't pay it back in a relatively short time (a year?)
These all seem reasonable.
[0] Yes, there are rules to prevent the worst abuse, mostly limiting you to doing so once every three years, the small total, and the need to fill out paperwork explaining the unexpected cost.
The problem with “paycheck to paycheck” is that it evokes images of people struggling to make ends meet—to pay the rent, keep the lights on, and put food on the table. But a lot of people today are using it to mean someone who’s living beyond their means—spending $1100/month on a brand new pickup truck while sending their kids to private school and maxing out their 401k. That’s not a problem of an unfair economy; it’s simply poor discipline. And so when a half-assed marketing survey asks people if they’re living paycheck to paycheck, you end up with 60% of respondents saying, “Yes,” when in reality only maybe 20% are struggling because they’re in a truly difficult situation. The rest of them may just need to settle for a less expensive car and maybe turn down their 401k contribution for six months so they can pay off their credit cards.
Sounds all correct to me, just the second word in your comment: I'm not sure how this adds up to it being a "problem". It's what "paycheck to paycheck" literally sounds like, it's what the dictionary says it means, it's how people use it -- but apparently not everyone. If you want to refer to people who are financially struggling, not using a broad term but just saying what you mean sounds okay to me?
That's exactly what paycheck to paycheck is meant to convey in English.
Paycheck to paycheck means just that - your income is balancing exactly your expenses. This doesn't mean that you are not living in modest luxury. Having enough money to cover essentials is just definition of - at the edge of poverty. Paycheck to paycheck is about (anti) fragility. They overlap strongly in the bottom part of the income ladder and diverge as you go up. You may be financially vulnerable even if pulling a lot of income. This doesn't mean that you can't get easier out of a hole if you fall with higher income, but paycheck to paycheck evaluate the chance of falling into it.
The problem with that is there are also a large number of people who make a large amount of money and still save very little. So we should maybe put more work into figuring out what is the fault of economic structure, and what is the fault of poor decision making. Perhaps define some metric that’s a measure of what percentage of people would be unlikely to be able to do anything other than live paycheck to paycheck to paycheck in their current setup and where they live.
> you barely have the ends meet for essentials
This exact debate showed up on another thread here the other day. While I agree with you, I was surprised to learn that many people view it to mean that tdon't have anything extra *after* they've done all of their socking away of money each money. Which is weird to me, but hey.
This exact debate showed up on another thread here the other day. While I agree with you, I was surprised to learn that many people view it to mean that tdon't have anything extra *after* they've done all of their socking away of money each money. Which is weird to me, but hey.
if this is what you think, I highly recommend you watch some episodes of Financial Audit on YouTube. Lots of people out there living paycheck to paycheck because they spend all their money on DoorDash and interest on bad debt, even with good income.
<2 months rent p.m. and no savings basically, is a generous definition
The US Fed came out with a stat a few years ago that 40% of Americans wouldn’t have cash to cover a $400 emergency: they’d have to sell something, borrow, or other.
That’s pretty much paycheck to paycheck if your savings are that low.
That’s pretty much paycheck to paycheck if your savings are that low.
The question asked how somebody would pay for an unexpected $400 expense. If you answered “credit card” then you were considered to not have the cash to cover an emergency. I’d use a credit card…and pay it off when it’s due.
How are you all discussing this question from memory without linking to the source?
Poorly, that's how.
When faced with a hypothetical expense of $400, 63 percent of all adults in 2022 said they would have covered it exclusively using cash, savings, or a credit card paid off at the next statement (referred to, altogether, as "cash or its equivalent")
https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2023-economic-we...).
Poorly, that's how.
When faced with a hypothetical expense of $400, 63 percent of all adults in 2022 said they would have covered it exclusively using cash, savings, or a credit card paid off at the next statement (referred to, altogether, as "cash or its equivalent")
https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2023-economic-we...).
I suspect multiple things are getting mixed together... I swear I remember reading what GP said much further back than two years ago.
Edit: That said, the part you quoted supports GP, the part in quotes seems to be what they actually asked. Credit is probably not what most would think of as "cash equivalent", that would be debit, checks, and transfers like Zelle.
16% straight answered like that, if you scroll down to the next table for non-cash-equivalent payments:
> Put it on my credit card and pay it off over time
Edit: That said, the part you quoted supports GP, the part in quotes seems to be what they actually asked. Credit is probably not what most would think of as "cash equivalent", that would be debit, checks, and transfers like Zelle.
16% straight answered like that, if you scroll down to the next table for non-cash-equivalent payments:
> Put it on my credit card and pay it off over time
The question actually asked is also published. It was:
Suppose that you have an emergency expense that costs $400. Based on your current financial situation, how would you pay for this expense?
If you would use more than one method to cover this expense, please select all that apply.
a. Put it on my credit card and pay it off in full at the next statement
b. Put it on my credit card and pay it off over time
c. With the money currently in my checking/savings account or with cash
d. Using money from a bank loan or line of credit
e. By borrowing from a friend or family member
f. Using a payday loan, deposit advance, or overdraft
g. By selling something
h. I wouldn't be able to pay for the expense right now
https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2024-supplementa...
Edit: The people running this survey also had the same thoughts about ‘maybe some people are choosing to not this directly even though they could?’ And added this question:
Based on your current financial situation, what is the largest emergency expense that you could handle right now using only your savings?
1. Under $100
2. $100 to $499
3. $500 to $999
4. $1,000 to $1,999
5. $2,000 or more
This is discussed just below the stats @Jabble sites!
To explore this potential difference between how people would pay for a small, unexpected expense and whether they could pay for it with cash or the equivalent, the survey included a question asking people what the largest emergency expense was that they could handle using only savings. Eighteen percent of adults said the largest emergency expense they could handle right now using only savings was under $100, and 14 percent said they could handle an expense of $100 to $499
Suppose that you have an emergency expense that costs $400. Based on your current financial situation, how would you pay for this expense?
If you would use more than one method to cover this expense, please select all that apply.
a. Put it on my credit card and pay it off in full at the next statement
b. Put it on my credit card and pay it off over time
c. With the money currently in my checking/savings account or with cash
d. Using money from a bank loan or line of credit
e. By borrowing from a friend or family member
f. Using a payday loan, deposit advance, or overdraft
g. By selling something
h. I wouldn't be able to pay for the expense right now
https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2024-supplementa...
Edit: The people running this survey also had the same thoughts about ‘maybe some people are choosing to not this directly even though they could?’ And added this question:
Based on your current financial situation, what is the largest emergency expense that you could handle right now using only your savings?
1. Under $100
2. $100 to $499
3. $500 to $999
4. $1,000 to $1,999
5. $2,000 or more
This is discussed just below the stats @Jabble sites!
To explore this potential difference between how people would pay for a small, unexpected expense and whether they could pay for it with cash or the equivalent, the survey included a question asking people what the largest emergency expense was that they could handle using only savings. Eighteen percent of adults said the largest emergency expense they could handle right now using only savings was under $100, and 14 percent said they could handle an expense of $100 to $499
So this statistic means most people are not living paycheck to paycheck right? (Although I didn’t think that “paycheck to paycheck” meant you would be ruined by an unexpected $400 expense)
Anyway, it still doesn’t seem like most people live paycheck to paycheck, according to your link:
> Some financial challenges, such as a job loss, require more financial resources than would an unexpected $400 expense. One common measure of financial resiliency is whether people have savings sufficient to cover three months of expenses if they lost their primary source of income. In 2023, 54 percent of adults said they had set aside money for three months of expenses in an emergency savings or “rainy day” fund—unchanged from 2022 but down from a high of 59 percent of adults in 2021.
Anyway, it still doesn’t seem like most people live paycheck to paycheck, according to your link:
> Some financial challenges, such as a job loss, require more financial resources than would an unexpected $400 expense. One common measure of financial resiliency is whether people have savings sufficient to cover three months of expenses if they lost their primary source of income. In 2023, 54 percent of adults said they had set aside money for three months of expenses in an emergency savings or “rainy day” fund—unchanged from 2022 but down from a high of 59 percent of adults in 2021.
Yep. In the US, I would of course pay for an unexpected car repair (or indeed most any expense) with a credit card. It doesn't mean it won't be paid off at the end of the month in essentially all cases. So one of those meaningless statistics.
YOU would, but a lot of people with credit cards don't even understand that it's a loan, or what compound interest is. They put the expense on the card and then pay the minimum payment, either until it's paid off with insane interest, or they keep racking up debt until they reach their limit and get a worse card, until they're trapped in a cycle of poverty
seriously, everyone in this thread should watch Financial Audit and see how people outside the silicon valley bubble really live. That show has extreme examples to be sure but there are so many people like this
seriously, everyone in this thread should watch Financial Audit and see how people outside the silicon valley bubble really live. That show has extreme examples to be sure but there are so many people like this
I find it hard to sympathize with people that have enough money to pay off their card bills but don’t actually do so because they can’t be bothered to read.
It is easy to make mistakes when you margins are razor thin. They might be stupid mistakes it still happens and you notice them more because your margins become even smaller. I have been there, being really poor was hard on me.
Not an excuse for using credit cards, just an explanation why you should sympathize.
Not an excuse for using credit cards, just an explanation why you should sympathize.
In many places the fault is not shifted to the potentially vulnerable or undereducated consumer and instead overdraft charges are capped.
In the US everyone is basically forced to have a credit card and use it but many have little financial literacy, especially immigrants.
In the US everyone is basically forced to have a credit card and use it but many have little financial literacy, especially immigrants.
I'm not in the US myself so I'm curious, how or why is everyone in the US basically forced to have a credit card?
They aren't, debit cards are the default. Credit cards are just readily available and people like having credit.
Credit access in the US is ludicrous, you can be a terrible borrower (late or even tons of charge offs) and still get credit offers for credit cards. A lot of people then get into trouble because somewhere in their psychology the credit limit counts as money they "have" even though they understand they have to pay it back. That's why you have people talking about literally freezing their cards in a block of ice to control their spending.
Credit access in the US is ludicrous, you can be a terrible borrower (late or even tons of charge offs) and still get credit offers for credit cards. A lot of people then get into trouble because somewhere in their psychology the credit limit counts as money they "have" even though they understand they have to pay it back. That's why you have people talking about literally freezing their cards in a block of ice to control their spending.
Because paper money is inconvenient as hell. Have you seen the size of those 25ct coins! And then you go to buy the cheapest bottle of water, and you need 20 of them to buy half a liter.
Oh I see. But I mean why not just a debit/bank card that allows you to pay with money you have but not with money you don't? You just meant card in general. Yes I agree cash is now very inconvenient.
Basically, you're less protected against purchases gone wrong with a debit card or against fraud. A fair number of (mostly higher income) folks also get other benefits from credit cards--though that may not be relevant here.
However, a debit card usually covers the floor of needing a card of some sort to pay for a lot of things.
However, a debit card usually covers the floor of needing a card of some sort to pay for a lot of things.
We have no savings right now (I am not working) and could afford a $400 emergency, but we live paycheck to paycheck. Income is good, the extra just gets spent on various things due to having multiple disabled people in the house. Eventually we hope to rebuild the savings.
As I recall, there was also some disagreement in discussions over what "having cash" meant. A lot of people have ready access to assets that aren't necessarily literally cash.
OP got divorced so they probably sold the house. Many people living on the edge could still end up pretty loaded if they sold everything and lived like OP.
That’s a weird stat. If I spend all my $10k/month so that I end up with $0, I’d be included in that stat, which is clearly insane.
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/04/09/most-of-americans-are-living... had 65% but the methodoly seems kind of terrible, your number might be better. Either way, its a significant portion, and even those with more generally don't have the ability to quit their job for 2 years.
[deleted]
Maybe you got it from Noahpinion: https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/paycheck-to-paycheck-and-five-...
I’ve always understood paycheck to paycheck to describe households that don’t have a buffer. Meaning, if the paychecks suddenly stop, or a sudden large expense, there’s nothing to bridge the gap other than social programs.
By this definition, I would imagine a very large number of US households fit the mould.
By this definition, I would imagine a very large number of US households fit the mould.
Recent Noahpinion on this…
https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/paycheck-to-paycheck-and-five-...
https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/paycheck-to-paycheck-and-five-...
No idea how credible the underlying BoA study is, but from [1]:
>>> According to our analysis, in 2024, around a quarter of all households fall into this camp, an increase from 2019.
They define living paycheck to paycheck as spending 95+% of income on necessities (housing, food, etc.)
[1] https://institute.bankofamerica.com/economic-insights/payche...
>>> According to our analysis, in 2024, around a quarter of all households fall into this camp, an increase from 2019.
They define living paycheck to paycheck as spending 95+% of income on necessities (housing, food, etc.)
[1] https://institute.bankofamerica.com/economic-insights/payche...
It"s definitely not true
https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/paycheck-to-paycheck-and-five-...
50% of Americans don’t have an emergency fund. That’s paycheck to paycheck.
over a third in the uk
The average person in the US maybe.
And the third world.
In Western Europe? Not so much. I mean, yes, there are poor people, but the middle class mostly doesn't live paycheck to paycheck.
And the third world.
In Western Europe? Not so much. I mean, yes, there are poor people, but the middle class mostly doesn't live paycheck to paycheck.
Most Western European countries do have higher savings rates than the US, but, disregarding Switzerland, Ireland and the Nordics (ie small wealthy countries with very high cost of living), it’s not a _dramatic_ difference. People may be less likely to be living paycheck to paycheck, but being able to just take two years off not working, unless you had very low living costs, would still be very unusual.
I think the difference in available social services here is also necessary to take into account. Someone laid off in, say, Spain, already has full healthcare provided by the state, and qualifies for an unemployment benefit based on their most recent salary for up to 3 years - this makes for a significantly less precarious position than that same person recently laid off in the US.
I would have expected the opposite to occur because of that - lesser saving rates because they have more robust available social services and don't need emergency reserves.
And if go eg. Germany. Ridiculously, without kids, it's nearly more beneficial to go on unemployment support there. Since, when working, you blow like 50%+ on taxes.
50% effective or marginal? During discussions, only effective is useful. According to the PWC page:
https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/germany/individual/taxes-on-per...
Marginal tax rate is 42% on the first EUR after 278K. That would astonishingly high total income in Germany. There might be some remaining solidarity tax from the reunification, but I cannot see how you get to an effective tax rate of 50% on 100K income, which is considered excellent in Germany.
Can you share a worked example how effective tax rate can be above 50%?
https://taxsummaries.pwc.com/germany/individual/taxes-on-per...
Marginal tax rate is 42% on the first EUR after 278K. That would astonishingly high total income in Germany. There might be some remaining solidarity tax from the reunification, but I cannot see how you get to an effective tax rate of 50% on 100K income, which is considered excellent in Germany.
Can you share a worked example how effective tax rate can be above 50%?
Kinda useless to reply to a throwaway after 5h but let's see
1. Minor mistake. 42% marginal is at 60k~ish, the 278k number is 45% 2. The effective income tax rate around 100k is in the area of 25%. When there's numbers thrown around above 40% they usually include the 19% sales tax, CO2 tax etc. it's a slightly odd number including government induced cost.
1. Minor mistake. 42% marginal is at 60k~ish, the 278k number is 45% 2. The effective income tax rate around 100k is in the area of 25%. When there's numbers thrown around above 40% they usually include the 19% sales tax, CO2 tax etc. it's a slightly odd number including government induced cost.
VAT is never included in income tax comparisons. So, please tell me: How do you get to 50% effective tax rate in Germany with anything less than a ridiculously high income, like 250K EUR+?
A lot of people adjust their lifestyle to paycheck, so little is left afterwards. Concept of savings is quite foreign to them, they want to enjoy life now. So paycheck to paycheck, while sporting newest highend phone or other gizmos, nice package of vacations through the year or just look at fashion clothes they wear and how often they buy new ones.
I mean I would fit in this category too for maybe past decade, little cash left over after paycheck but I did like exotic 5 vacations per year and invested rest into mortgage for mountain apartment for rentals.
I mean I would fit in this category too for maybe past decade, little cash left over after paycheck but I did like exotic 5 vacations per year and invested rest into mortgage for mountain apartment for rentals.
Not really.
1. Most Americans are not paycheck-to-paycheck. It is what politicians constantly say depending on whether they are in power or not.
https://old.reddit.com/r/AskEconomics/comments/1dbpaag/do_th...
2. Americans have higher disposable income at all income levels than Europeans (Western Europe included).
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/xgoouz/americans_ha...
1. Most Americans are not paycheck-to-paycheck. It is what politicians constantly say depending on whether they are in power or not.
https://old.reddit.com/r/AskEconomics/comments/1dbpaag/do_th...
2. Americans have higher disposable income at all income levels than Europeans (Western Europe included).
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/xgoouz/americans_ha...
> Americans have higher disposable income at all income levels than Europeans
He's privileged sure, not because he had 80K in the bank to burn through, but because he knows it's not the end of him when it's burnt through. He COULD get a job and steady income if he wanted, in at least that 80K range (probably double really). So meh. Good for him though for scratching his itches though. Any dude who can code can be a wage slave if they really want to.
I admire the self-confidence and the freedom it brings. I sometimes wish I had the courage to go down my own path.
To me, $80k sounds like a very small amount of "F-You" money. I'm not criticizing the OP at all, but if I quit my job with 80k in the bank, I would immediately start researching the most painful B2B problem I could solve quickly using AI. Not to generate an income stream, but to build an asset (the business) to sell.
That's the quickest path to $1M. Software developers are too caught up on salary (or 73 different "income streams" that all make $0), and rarely think about building a valuable business.
That's the quickest path to $1M. Software developers are too caught up on salary (or 73 different "income streams" that all make $0), and rarely think about building a valuable business.
If you can just do that, then why are you not quitting your job and why don't you have $800k in the bank?
It's easy, just build a million dollar asset and sell it. Pssh, I am on my third one this week.
It's easy, just build a million dollar asset and sell it. Pssh, I am on my third one this week.
I posted an idea for a proven business a few days ago based on an area why my employer has given up on (too "small" for a multi-billion dollar company) and yet customers still seem to like and want[1]. I'm pretty sure this would be worth a few million at least, and I'd even be qualified to do it. Why don't I do it? Because it would be dull as ditchwater and I'd hate every minute of it. There's more to life than that.
The point is that solving dull business problems like that might be lucrative, but not many of us are motivated enough to do them.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42305336
The point is that solving dull business problems like that might be lucrative, but not many of us are motivated enough to do them.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42305336
I can't find your email address, I'm interested in that idea :-)
Is there a way to contact you? I couldn't find it in your profile, unfortunately.
Is there a way to contact you? I couldn't find it in your profile, unfortunately.
Believe me, I'm really not interested in taking part. For the product that was deprecated you can see here: https://www.ovirt.org/ https://access.redhat.com/products/red-hat-virtualization I wish you luck.
I doubt doing oVirt is a million dollar idea. One of the biggest reasons for going with oVirt was redhat being behind it. rh will keep rhev on life support for its customers (thus staying in competition for a bit longer) and there are plenty other more popular opensource alternatives already. I mean, sure making millions isn't impossible, but you would not need good software so much, but good connections instead to make it work.
Yeah, Red Hat put a fair bit of money and investment into a direct VMware takeout using oVirt/RHV. Pretty much went nowhere. There's presumably some money int here post-Broadcom acquisition but Red Hat is mostly betting on Kubevirt and OpenShift. Some (presumably smaller-scale) customers will prefer more of a like-to-like lower-cost replacement but personally I wouldn't bet on it as a business.
Yeah, my feeling is that if you're a billion dollar business with associated high overheads, then a few million is not worth it. If you're a zero dollar start-up with focus and a tolerance for selling boring software to boring companies, then there's money in it.
I still remember something someone from IBM told me during my prior analyst gig. Don't remember the specific but something to do with Linux and Power I think. Basically, he said that if it's not a billion dollar opportunity it's not worth all the costs and distractions up and down the line to pursue.
You're right that the million dollar opportunity is a lot more interesting for a startup. Of course, it's also going to be a lot harder for that startup to displace VMware (which the potential customer probably is using). I'm not sure going after those crumbs is a terrible idea but there are already other option like Xen too.
You're right that the million dollar opportunity is a lot more interesting for a startup. Of course, it's also going to be a lot harder for that startup to displace VMware (which the potential customer probably is using). I'm not sure going after those crumbs is a terrible idea but there are already other option like Xen too.
Something can be both conceptually simple yet difficult to execute. (The key to losing weight is "just" to eat less and exercise, piano is "just a bunch of keys," etc)
Personally I have a mortgage and a family, so I'm not eager to burn through savings to build a company 0-1, but if I had to, I described exactly what I would do.
Personally I have a mortgage and a family, so I'm not eager to burn through savings to build a company 0-1, but if I had to, I described exactly what I would do.
Hehehe, you just described most normal people: a mortgage a family, cannot just wake up and say I am going all-in “this great idea”. Your idea is therefore only reachable for early age people or singles.
I am trying to revive a project I believe strongly which is kind of ready to sale, but I cannot get a damn 4 hours to seat down and look at it without being interrupted by life’s chores or just being too tired
Anyway I have similar fantasies to yours. It feels good to not be alone, both in circumstances as in fantasy.
I've been there! I recently released an app that has been 99% ready for sale for a full year, and the only way I got it over the finish line was to wake up every morning at 5am to get an hour or two of work in before my kid wakes up. :) I'd love to do something bigger, but this will have to scratch that entrepreneurial itch for now!
You inspired me and I am starting a calendar where i track my commitment to it.
I dunno. That seems a pretty quick path to a 74th income stream that makes $0. Especially at the moment, I'm not seeing a lot of money trees around. Not that I needed them, but when I semi-retired a number of possible revenue streams sort of evaporated--not that I looked too hard.
But if you deliberately quit, that may be the thing to do. A more conservative person would probably counsel getting at least a part-time job that pays a salary though.
But if you deliberately quit, that may be the thing to do. A more conservative person would probably counsel getting at least a part-time job that pays a salary though.
To be specific, I would quit the other 73 income streams and stop any extracurricular activities until I shipped something. Even though AI feels overhyped (it sort of is), we're still early in the game, and there's plenty of money to be made. Businesses still have a ton of time-consuming, expensive pain points. You just have to pick an industry and go talk to insiders to figure out what to build.
I’m in business technology consulting. You’re right about tons of pain points and opportunity.
But the limiting factor is not AI or any kind of tech, it’s getting these businesses to trust you with fitting into their existing systems and giving you their time.
But the limiting factor is not AI or any kind of tech, it’s getting these businesses to trust you with fitting into their existing systems and giving you their time.
100%. Another reason to start by talking to customers. The product has to be more than useful—it has to fit into their current workflow. Most B2B startups underinvest in sales (which is not the same as sending 100,000 cold emails).
I won't argue if I had a bunch of other activities consuming most of my bandwidth that weren't bringing in any money. If you really need cash though, I might consider lower risk, lower reward options on at least a part-time basis as well though. Doing a startup isn't exactly a high ROI activity in general--especially in a max-hype area.
Very true—for a software developer, part-time consulting is probably the quickest path to making some money. It's a lower-risk, but much lower-leverage option than a 0-1 startup. Building a startup has a high risk of going to zero, but if you've chosen the right customer, the potential upside is dramatically higher than any other option.
[deleted]
That’s a good point. The article reads like an extended vacation, often spent trying to start businesses, that didn’t work out.
I was recently working six days a week with a nearly-empty fridge. My coworkers were scraping by. I have two jobs now. Due to a car repair, money is tight through December but we have food (and the car). Working 12 hours a day does cut into time I might build skills for a better job. Still progressing, though.
My coworkers and I at each job can’t usually take even a week off unless it was a paid vacation. A year or two? That’s like a dream goal for us.
Whereas, it’s terrible he had a divorce and lost everything. I’ve prayed that Jesus Christ bless he and his former partner with mutual forgiveness and new lives with peace. I thank Christ that He gave much joy in financial or other circumstances that would cause depression in most people. He is our Rock.
I was recently working six days a week with a nearly-empty fridge. My coworkers were scraping by. I have two jobs now. Due to a car repair, money is tight through December but we have food (and the car). Working 12 hours a day does cut into time I might build skills for a better job. Still progressing, though.
My coworkers and I at each job can’t usually take even a week off unless it was a paid vacation. A year or two? That’s like a dream goal for us.
Whereas, it’s terrible he had a divorce and lost everything. I’ve prayed that Jesus Christ bless he and his former partner with mutual forgiveness and new lives with peace. I thank Christ that He gave much joy in financial or other circumstances that would cause depression in most people. He is our Rock.
$80k is by no means “privilege”. Bear in mind, we’re talking about the Canadian dollar that doesn’t stretch nearly as much as USD.
Also with the cost of living shooting up so much - C$80k of today is probably as much as $50-60k of 2019.
Also with the cost of living shooting up so much - C$80k of today is probably as much as $50-60k of 2019.
> $80k is by no means “privilege”
Privilege is relative. There are around a billion people today that won't make that much money in their entire lives. And most people alive today will never save even 1/10 that much money.
Privilege is relative. There are around a billion people today that won't make that much money in their entire lives. And most people alive today will never save even 1/10 that much money.
I called it out in an different thread. There's a safety net here that's simply not being mentioned. Nothing wrong with that of course, but let's not pretend that somebody with a monthly rent of ~1200 and a whopping ~60 CAD in savings would somehow magically be stress free. You'd be homeless inside a few months in the US.
> stress free
But he’s not. He’s specifically spelling it out by saying his gut and stomach issues are very likely tied to the stress of his no stable income.
But he’s not. He’s specifically spelling it out by saying his gut and stomach issues are very likely tied to the stress of his no stable income.
Hard disagree. In his post he's talking about continuing on in his own projects, and about 2025 being essentially more of the same, except this time with no money and no significant stable income. There is other support somewhere he is simply not talking about, because he certainly doesn't mention being worried about paying his rent going forward.
Okay, I’m still not sure why it matters. It’s not like he’s being an ass or saying “anyone can do it” so what’s the harm?
Did you know there are people, right now, who are squandering a fortune on mundane things and won’t have to work a day in their lives? You can be jealous of them (I am) but that’s all.
Did you know there are people, right now, who are squandering a fortune on mundane things and won’t have to work a day in their lives? You can be jealous of them (I am) but that’s all.
The entrepreneur is maybe not too strict on the rent payments? Maybe he adds other housekeeping services that balance the money side?
Maybe he sells his body. The longer I think about the wilder it gets.
I agree with others that while it is intriguing to read about his last year, the way he finances himself on this low level is missing.
Depending on where you live even an income of 200k$ can have you living from paycheck to paycheck. So it is very impressive if he pulls this through but how, teach me.
My theory is that he's getting alimony from his big tech ex-wife that supported him through his previous startups(pulling this out of my ass).
I'm in a similar boat. -$800 in my checking and about ~$1000 left on my CC. Also from Canada. Morgage payment coming up in 5 days will put me in the negative, and another one in January as well. Should not have bought a house. I'm basically screwed, but I figure the wheels of the system or whatever will move slower than me finding work.
Overspent on the house? Not uncommon in Canada tbh. The country is in a really bad state real-estate wise.
A little bit. It was a great idea at the time when I had work. It's been listed for sale for 2 months now which is to be expected with the rate frenzy.
similar boat 7 years ago. Luckily, I found a data science job that barely covered by rent and family expenses for 12hrs a day. In addition I had to freelance for a 2 to 3 hours everyday to make ends meet - basically sleep, work, repeat - rough patch - you will get through it. Hold tight, wishing you good luck!
Would it be possible to sell the house? Kind of get rid of the mortgage?
Have had it listed for months now, I expect it will sell when rates cool, in which case I'm gravy.
Damn, brother. But if anyone can pull a rabbit out this hat, it’s you. Your main problem will be getting your giant brain through the door for a job interview.
Thanks man!
What do you mean by "~$1000 left on my CC"? Do you mean like $1k until you max out your CC? $1k left to pay off?
Yeah $1k until max out, it's blocked from online payments but I can still use it irl.
So it's really -$200. And CAD to boot.
They have negative $800 in their checking account.
Yikes, totally missed that.
That makes it -$1800CAD.
Thanks for noticing.
That makes it -$1800CAD.
Thanks for noticing.
How are you doing your math?
If they have $1k left in available credit, and they were making tech wages, that means on just that one credit card they are probably $9k to $24k at least in the negative already. The $1k of remaining available credit is not yet debt, but the negative bank balance is.
It is also likely they have more than one credit card, and maybe also some student loans.
If they have $1k left in available credit, and they were making tech wages, that means on just that one credit card they are probably $9k to $24k at least in the negative already. The $1k of remaining available credit is not yet debt, but the negative bank balance is.
It is also likely they have more than one credit card, and maybe also some student loans.
> How are you doing your math?
As a european, I also didn't realize what CC stood for and was tripped up by the math same as the person you're replying to. Not everyone lives in a world/country where living on credit is the norm (at least not yet).
As a european, I also didn't realize what CC stood for and was tripped up by the math same as the person you're replying to. Not everyone lives in a world/country where living on credit is the norm (at least not yet).
I have credit cards in Eastern Europe for 25 years, so CC is not a rare term. I also never lived on credit, I used it just for transactions during the month fully covered at the end of month with zero interest. I did that because security and refunds used to be better for credit vs debit cards (with CC, it was the bank's money, so they were more interested to solve problems). When condition equalized, I closed all CC.
I don’t think living on credit is the norm even in countries that use a credit card regularly. The limit on my card is fairly high, but if I don’t pay it off every month my provider gets pissy.
They are simply not counting the CC since it's not available money
The $1,000 available on the CC is not debt either, so the person does not currently have -$1,800. If the information we have is that the person has an $800 overdraft and a $1,000 line of credit that they’re not using, they’re $800 in debt, not $1,800.
What is going on with the IT sector in Canada?
I'm a contractor and last year my agency said there would be layoffs, which caused quite a scare, but in the end only contractors residing in Canada were affected.
I'm a contractor and last year my agency said there would be layoffs, which caused quite a scare, but in the end only contractors residing in Canada were affected.
Nobody I know who is good that I know works for Canadian companies if they can be avoided. I'm not sure what happened with your agency, probably costs involved hiring foreigners via services like remote.com or other?
Your tagline on your profile made me laugh.
Your tagline on your profile made me laugh.
What experience do you have and what job are you looking for?
You might want to reach out to your mortgage provider and see if they can help. Often they will.
Where in Canada are you?
You might want to reach out to your mortgage provider and see if they can help. Often they will.
Where in Canada are you?
I'm looking for frontend/fullstack. I have over 10y of experience. I did reach out, and the mortgage payment has been withdrawn, and they haven't gotten back to me in two weeks.
I'm in Toronto. My info is on my profile.
I'm in Toronto. My info is on my profile.
> Should not have bought a house. I'm basically screwed
Sell your house. You can't afford it.
Sell your house. You can't afford it.
Yeah it's been listed for ages and I've dropped the price significantly. We're all collectively waiting on the coming rate announcements.
Why did you buy a house while having such small savings?
They probably spent all their savings on the down payment, as approximately everyone on the planet who wants a place to live but can't pay for it all out-of-pocket does?
Investment shenanigans excluded, if you have enough savings to pay off your mortgage in case you lose your job, there's no point in getting a mortgage in the first place.
Investment shenanigans excluded, if you have enough savings to pay off your mortgage in case you lose your job, there's no point in getting a mortgage in the first place.
> Investment shenanigans excluded
You're poisoning the well there, as that is the major reason to get a mortgage even when you have enough cash to buy a house outright. It's not "shenanigans", it almost always makes financial sense to keep your cash invested elsewhere when mortgage rates are low.
You're poisoning the well there, as that is the major reason to get a mortgage even when you have enough cash to buy a house outright. It's not "shenanigans", it almost always makes financial sense to keep your cash invested elsewhere when mortgage rates are low.
Also mortgage interest is tax deductible.
Not in Canada
And, for many people in the US without a lot of deductibles, not in the US either after tax law changes a few years ago.
Yeah they're going to keep SALT capped farther than they said they would, huh?
No idea. I wouldn't count on anything with a new administration/congress.
New? It is the same crowd as 2017. I mean they dropped the McCains, Cheneys, and Paul Ryan.
But the rest are still there.
But the rest are still there.
And who knows what the crowd will do in 2025 given new cabinet etc.? Deductions don't really affect me much going forward. I care but not planning around specific policies going forward.
Standard exemption in the US for a married couple is around $30k. If your mortgage is so massive that the mortgage tax deduction is better than the standard deduction then in most cases you bought a far too luxurious house or in a far too “prestigious” location(SF, NYC, etc.). If you’re not already a millionaire you shouldn’t buy such property.
Standard deduction for single people is 15k. SALT can get you to 10k, and anything past 5k in mortgage interest (at 5% rates and 100k balance, you're already at the point) is gain over the std deduction. 22.5% on those dollars for many people. More depednnding on state tax.
As someone else commented, things can of course always change, but as things stand today, it takes a very large mortgage and/or very significant other deductibles to get over the standard deductible at this point in the US.
No emergency fund, I suppose.
Sometimes I wonder how people manage to browse the Web without encountering "common" pieces of wisdom. Maybe we should bundle up a bunch of useful YouTube/TikToks as a supplemental education package for students.
Sometimes I wonder how people manage to browse the Web without encountering "common" pieces of wisdom. Maybe we should bundle up a bunch of useful YouTube/TikToks as a supplemental education package for students.
Nah, people know those "common" pieces of wisdom. What people bringing them up often miss is, they're also unachievable for most people. Life isn't a MMORPG where you can check out of progression at any moment and spend some time grinding to build up savings. Life has a clock to it that doesn't stop, and most can't afford falling behind it much.
> MMORPG where you can check out
Had this same type of idea cycle around recently quite a bit lately. Similar issue, if this experience actually had the "uninstall", "quit", "leave", "exit", or red X in the corner, it would have been hit a long time ago. Much rather drop and go bodily join some fantasy or sci-fi land than the perpetual grind of meaningless, mundane, superficial, banal America. There's a reason millions spend almost every waking moment staring at a screen, playing a game about a fantasy or sci-fi land where you can actually feel like you accomplish something than interacting with the human race.
Frankly, a lot of MMORPG economies almost look preferable these days, and nearly as believable. At least in quite a few you can personally manufacture something and at least have a possibility of making money that's relevant. On Earth, rather challenging. Etsy for example:
One part that's been really bothersome lately is how many games actually seem better implemented than the "real" world. Farming Simulator being one of the perennial cases. The equipment is implemented down to the individual bolts and seals on the engines, and you can probably print out the CAD models and manufacture your own tractor they're so detailed. Yet the game actually implements numerous technologies that the "real" farming consistently refuses. Quicker iterations, quicker development, quicker releases and responsiveness to customers. Intermediate cost farming equipment for the starting farmer, bicycle and human powered equipment with low yearly input costs. The "real" farming sector appear unable to do little other than offer the same $500,000 super-rigs they've been offering for years. There was a post a while back where the Farming Simulator people actually complained to the John Deere's of the world "common guys, how about some entry level stuff, we don't have anything to offer our players."
Anyways, TLDR, would have quit, uninstalled, and then burned the computer in the yard a long time ago.
Had this same type of idea cycle around recently quite a bit lately. Similar issue, if this experience actually had the "uninstall", "quit", "leave", "exit", or red X in the corner, it would have been hit a long time ago. Much rather drop and go bodily join some fantasy or sci-fi land than the perpetual grind of meaningless, mundane, superficial, banal America. There's a reason millions spend almost every waking moment staring at a screen, playing a game about a fantasy or sci-fi land where you can actually feel like you accomplish something than interacting with the human race.
Frankly, a lot of MMORPG economies almost look preferable these days, and nearly as believable. At least in quite a few you can personally manufacture something and at least have a possibility of making money that's relevant. On Earth, rather challenging. Etsy for example:
Only 26% of Etsy shops are successful and run as full-time businesses, or 74% of all Etsy businesses eventually fail.
Average Etsy seller makes $2,900 per year
One part that's been really bothersome lately is how many games actually seem better implemented than the "real" world. Farming Simulator being one of the perennial cases. The equipment is implemented down to the individual bolts and seals on the engines, and you can probably print out the CAD models and manufacture your own tractor they're so detailed. Yet the game actually implements numerous technologies that the "real" farming consistently refuses. Quicker iterations, quicker development, quicker releases and responsiveness to customers. Intermediate cost farming equipment for the starting farmer, bicycle and human powered equipment with low yearly input costs. The "real" farming sector appear unable to do little other than offer the same $500,000 super-rigs they've been offering for years. There was a post a while back where the Farming Simulator people actually complained to the John Deere's of the world "common guys, how about some entry level stuff, we don't have anything to offer our players."
Anyways, TLDR, would have quit, uninstalled, and then burned the computer in the yard a long time ago.
> Almost every part of the world economy seems designed to punish every member for not being born rich and a celebrity at birth.
> Most followed on Instagram - Christiano Ronaldo (635m)
Christiano Ronaldo was not born rich. He was born in a poor family in a poor region of one of the poorest EU country in the 80's.
> Most followed on Instagram - Christiano Ronaldo (635m)
Christiano Ronaldo was not born rich. He was born in a poor family in a poor region of one of the poorest EU country in the 80's.
Winning a lottery (and then winning a lottery of not mismanaging your good fortune) is great when it happens to you, but it's not an effective strategy you can plan for.
> One part that's been really bothersome lately is how many games actually seem better implemented than the "real" world. Farming Simulator being one of the perennial cases. (...) the game actually implements numerous technologies that the "real" farming consistently refuses. Quicker iterations, quicker development, quicker releases and responsiveness to customers.
Oh yes. Game designers - and same goes for any fiction authors, really - have two things going for them here. One, they can skip the grind; the boring and annoying distractions from the goal that are also necessary to achieve it in the real world. And two, as you noticed, fictional worlds can be designed to work.
Like, what's the difference between a tractor in Farming Simulator and in the real world? The simulated tractor is meant to work - to do the stuff the tractors do. The real tractor is first and foremost meant to make money for manufacturer; whether it works and can do the tractor stuff, that's incidental.
Or in short, games implement the child's view of the world, where things are what they seem to be. Bakers bake bread, firemen help people, singers sing so everyone has fun, etc. Everyone plays their role straight. The real life, unfortunately, has people doing whatever to survive in a more or less structured matter; it may manifest in bakers and firemen and singers, but their roles and value provided are incidental and they're not fulfilled and they'd all rather be somewhere else.
The child's worldview is a lie. It's honest, it's good, it makes sense, but it's a fucking lie. I'm still having difficulties processing that it's a lie. And it's all too easy to immerse yourself in sci-fi/fantasy videogames or shows or books, because they all assume the world makes sense, that things are what they seem, what they're supposed to. When things are not what they seem, that's a goddamn plot twist.
So yeah, I can't help but daydream about how the world could look like if we could just do stuff directly, instead of incidentally as a way to make money to survive (and eventually, enough money to tell the world to GTFO, so we can live out our own fantasies of a world that works).
Oh yes. Game designers - and same goes for any fiction authors, really - have two things going for them here. One, they can skip the grind; the boring and annoying distractions from the goal that are also necessary to achieve it in the real world. And two, as you noticed, fictional worlds can be designed to work.
Like, what's the difference between a tractor in Farming Simulator and in the real world? The simulated tractor is meant to work - to do the stuff the tractors do. The real tractor is first and foremost meant to make money for manufacturer; whether it works and can do the tractor stuff, that's incidental.
Or in short, games implement the child's view of the world, where things are what they seem to be. Bakers bake bread, firemen help people, singers sing so everyone has fun, etc. Everyone plays their role straight. The real life, unfortunately, has people doing whatever to survive in a more or less structured matter; it may manifest in bakers and firemen and singers, but their roles and value provided are incidental and they're not fulfilled and they'd all rather be somewhere else.
The child's worldview is a lie. It's honest, it's good, it makes sense, but it's a fucking lie. I'm still having difficulties processing that it's a lie. And it's all too easy to immerse yourself in sci-fi/fantasy videogames or shows or books, because they all assume the world makes sense, that things are what they seem, what they're supposed to. When things are not what they seem, that's a goddamn plot twist.
So yeah, I can't help but daydream about how the world could look like if we could just do stuff directly, instead of incidentally as a way to make money to survive (and eventually, enough money to tell the world to GTFO, so we can live out our own fantasies of a world that works).
You're kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you save up an emergency fund instead of paying a downpayment then you're spending money on rent that you could have in retirement, and it's not like rent is consistently cheaper than mortgage payments anyway so if you can save up when renting you can save up when owning.
So the gamble is, do you spend 2 years saving up for 6 months of income as a buffer and send tens of thousands of dollars down the drain in the meantime, or do you roll the dice and hope nothing bad happens in the next 5 or so years? The people who end up in the best position will be those who take the second option, and most of the time it will work out.
So the gamble is, do you spend 2 years saving up for 6 months of income as a buffer and send tens of thousands of dollars down the drain in the meantime, or do you roll the dice and hope nothing bad happens in the next 5 or so years? The people who end up in the best position will be those who take the second option, and most of the time it will work out.
The problem is that many people view home ownership as a cultural / political statement beyond all else. They desperately need to stop being a rentoid and become a landchad. The reality is that renting is often a better financial decision than buying, especially short term. Plus, in this economy there is no guarantee that you're going to be employed in one city your whole life.
Sure. but what isn't cultural? Being cultural does not mean it is irrational. It would probably be a better financial decision if people lived cells and ate nutrient paste.
The goal is to maximize your happiness. Putting yourself into a precarious and stressful financial situation because of memes is irrational. Buying a sleeping pod might be rational for some, not for others. Those aren't cultural though, they're personal.
I dont really understand the distinction you are drawing between cultural and personal. Personal opinions are shaped by culture and memes.
Your personal preferences are influenced by culture, but they include your material realities. If you're making decisions about your finances/housing without considering your material reality, you've been meme'd into a decision. A lot of people have been influenced into believing that being an owner is always better than being a renter, so they make stupid decisions.
Im not going to argue against the idea that stupid decisions are stupid or that some people make them.
My point is rather that preferences, including the material reality that you seek, are almost entirely cultural. There is no culture vs reality, but rather some cultural values vs other cultural values
My point is rather that preferences, including the material reality that you seek, are almost entirely cultural. There is no culture vs reality, but rather some cultural values vs other cultural values
Maybe. It's very situational. Beyond the spreadsheets for a given location, there are times in your life when you want to be able to pickup and move fairly easily and there are times when you want to be able to put down roots and be in a pretty stable situation that lets you tailor things.
"Putting down roots" is the wrong way to look at it. You have to ask yourself if you're certain that you will be in one area for a long time. Everyone wants roots in LA or NYC, many of them wash out.
For a majority of people, buying a house has a large emotional component that is hard to ignore.
The short answer is probably everything in moderation if you're reasonably young. Maybe don't put every penny you can get your hands on into a down payment on a house, especially if you're also a bit uncertain about future income streams and life situation. But maybe you also don't really need a year or two comfortable emergency fund.
At some point, it probably makes sense to buy a place if you can if only for the stability as you get older.
At some point, it probably makes sense to buy a place if you can if only for the stability as you get older.
Emergency fund is useless when expenses are 5k/mo, and that's just sitting in my room working in 15C with my food costs and expenses as low as can be. Burned through 40k already.
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Bingo. I should have waited another 10y on the house.
I'm gonna predict that in a 10-year trend, the house price inflation will have continued. Unless you could save faster than the bubble, you still wouldn't be getting/keeping a house in 10 years.
I'd have been WAY better off if I stayed at my parents and invested it all into the S&P or something similar, or even bitcoin (inb4 it's going to crash). Then kept building/working/saving, and in 10y I'll have been in a much better position.
Hindsight is 20/20 and you can't extract value from the economy without changing it. The values of certain things go up or down because certain people are or aren't investing in them. If everyone who wished they'd behaved differently had behaved differently, they often wouldn't even be any better off.
Somehow the little guy always ends up taking most of the system's losses, though.
Somehow the little guy always ends up taking most of the system's losses, though.
If that's the case, the savings are not 'spent' but are simply invested in the house. They should be able to sell the house for the net value (market value minus mortgage outstanding) which should be roughly equal to the down payment.
High transaction fees on sales. Typically at least 5% in US, not sure about Canada.
Also don't forget taxes, insurance, mortgage interest needs to get paid while house is in your hands. Most mortgages have lots of interest during the first few years.
Also don't forget taxes, insurance, mortgage interest needs to get paid while house is in your hands. Most mortgages have lots of interest during the first few years.
5% for me + various breakage fees and other minor costs.
Can you imagine if buyers and sellers only had to pay, say 1% each? The whole market would become a lot more liquid. But nah, brokers are essential and have your interests at heart.
This issue is frequently raised on HN. If estate agents only got 1% of sales, then could not even cover the cost of an office and (usually) a car and pay them self a middle class wage. Most people buy one or two houses in their entire life. It makes sense to have an expert to guide them through the process.
They absolutely aren't required and fees are negotiable.
Yeah sure but then nobody will ever see your property for sale unless they drive by it. Purplebricks also shut down in Canada.
What do you mean?
Im not sure about Canada, but Private individuals can list on redfin and Zillow in the US. MLS posting must be from a broker, but you can hire one flat rate upload your listing
Im not sure about Canada, but Private individuals can list on redfin and Zillow in the US. MLS posting must be from a broker, but you can hire one flat rate upload your listing
You think I should instead list on redfin/zillow instead? Never considered it before. Do you know of any others?
Lol yeah. Biggest joke ever.
You can easily find the guy's LinkedIn. It appears that he is fully devoted to "entrepreneurship" rather than finding a traditional job, and currently lists himself as the founder of 2 current start-ups. So the unemployed part is basically by choice... and you'll notice, in the article, nothing stated about applying for jobs and not getting them.
I believe what this guy is referring to is that his startups currently aren't making money. And, to that end, this blog post is a marketing piece.
I believe what this guy is referring to is that his startups currently aren't making money. And, to that end, this blog post is a marketing piece.
He didn’t link to his only revenue-generating project anywhere, so it doesn’t feel like much of a marketing piece to me. It’s just a blog post about what he worked on in 2024 (including hobbies)
It’s the privilege of renter’s protections. Even with nonpayment the landlord has to go through a Tribunal administratif du logement hearing to evict them and that usually takes at least a few months unless the tenant is trashing the property on their way out. The process can get extended every time the tenant pays rent so if someone is genuinely trying to pay as soon as they can, eviction takes a while.
Renter's protections is one of those ideas that sound good on paper. Having to keep a non-paying rentee is disastrous for a landlord who is also trying to pay their mortgage.
Sure, some landlords are large real estate companies, but all you're doing is forcing out small landlords and ensuring that large companies own all of the rental properties.
(Like all regulation, it is at a fundamental level pro-monopolistic, favoring large companies that can handle the overhead of complying with the regulation and punishing small players who cannot.)
Sure, some landlords are large real estate companies, but all you're doing is forcing out small landlords and ensuring that large companies own all of the rental properties.
(Like all regulation, it is at a fundamental level pro-monopolistic, favoring large companies that can handle the overhead of complying with the regulation and punishing small players who cannot.)
If you lose the mortgage on your investment property, you lose your investment property. Risk/reward and all that.
If a renter is evicted, the consequences for their life are much more severe.
Not all regulation is pro-monopolistic. The accumulation of general regulation and restriction is often supported by incumbents but that doesn’t support the sweeping conclusion you’ve reached.
If a renter is evicted, the consequences for their life are much more severe.
Not all regulation is pro-monopolistic. The accumulation of general regulation and restriction is often supported by incumbents but that doesn’t support the sweeping conclusion you’ve reached.
The consequences for renters is also severe if not enough housing is supplied because it doesn't make financial sense to do so.
It's not as simple as saying that the downside for landlords is merely loss of their investment and that the downside for renters is homelessness. The risk of non-paying tenants influences market dynamics on both sides and impacts even landlords who never encounter non-paying tenants, and even renters who make all their payments perfectly.
For landlords, they have to be much more selective of which tenants they take, and deny rental applications for those with eg bad credit or incomes that are technically enough to cover rent but leave too little of a buffer. They have to either pay for some kind of insurance (I don't know if this exists but I would assume it does) or diversify across enough properties so that they're financially protected from the risk of getting a non-paying tenant. And of course, yes they may have to deal with the hassle of a drawn out eviction of a non-paying (and often intentionally or unintentionally destructive) tenant who will likely never be able to repay the landlord even if held liable in civil court, which raises their costs in aggregate.
For tenants, besides having those increased costs and income/credit requirements passed through to them, they also have to pay higher security deposits. But probably the biggest problem is the effect on supply. Small scale property owners (especially the kind that ends up becoming an "accidental landlord" because they eg bought a condo and then moved) are highly disincentivized from renting their property out, and when they do, they're highly incentivized to not put it on the open-market and instead opt for their personal network/word of mouth/in-group. For example, lots of large tech companies have internal housing rental groups and many properties may only be advertised in places like that, or within a tight-knit social group where there are real reputational risks to being a non-paying tenant.
Really the problem IMO is that excessively permissive rental protections are a kind of social welfare benefits that are purely born by one part of the private sector. If governments compensated landlords for unpaid rent and intentional destruction from uncooperative tenants (which they have done in some cases for eg covid, but these are often done ad-hoc so landlords can't count on them and adjust practices accordingly) who take 6-12+ months to evict, then most of these problems would disappear.
For landlords, they have to be much more selective of which tenants they take, and deny rental applications for those with eg bad credit or incomes that are technically enough to cover rent but leave too little of a buffer. They have to either pay for some kind of insurance (I don't know if this exists but I would assume it does) or diversify across enough properties so that they're financially protected from the risk of getting a non-paying tenant. And of course, yes they may have to deal with the hassle of a drawn out eviction of a non-paying (and often intentionally or unintentionally destructive) tenant who will likely never be able to repay the landlord even if held liable in civil court, which raises their costs in aggregate.
For tenants, besides having those increased costs and income/credit requirements passed through to them, they also have to pay higher security deposits. But probably the biggest problem is the effect on supply. Small scale property owners (especially the kind that ends up becoming an "accidental landlord" because they eg bought a condo and then moved) are highly disincentivized from renting their property out, and when they do, they're highly incentivized to not put it on the open-market and instead opt for their personal network/word of mouth/in-group. For example, lots of large tech companies have internal housing rental groups and many properties may only be advertised in places like that, or within a tight-knit social group where there are real reputational risks to being a non-paying tenant.
Really the problem IMO is that excessively permissive rental protections are a kind of social welfare benefits that are purely born by one part of the private sector. If governments compensated landlords for unpaid rent and intentional destruction from uncooperative tenants (which they have done in some cases for eg covid, but these are often done ad-hoc so landlords can't count on them and adjust practices accordingly) who take 6-12+ months to evict, then most of these problems would disappear.
If I own rental property, I should not be personally responsible for subsidizing your bad financial decisions.
The landlord deserves zero empathy in these cases. It is his job to select a reliable tenant, that's usually his entire job. Anybody else who fails completely with their responsibilities at their job can expect to be fired and lose their income, or worse. There's an extremely large surplus of honest, tidy and reliable tenants, so it's not a problem for a responsible landlord to avoid going to court, if they just put in the minimum effort at doing their job. And if they can't handle that, they should sell the real estate and not be a landlord.
Wait, who's responsible for maintaining the building?
Sounds like he rents a room in a house/apartment, so it's probably one of his roomies that has the lease, not him. If that's the case, protections wont apply here.
Why wouldn't the protections apply? They can evict him without going through the proper process? Couldn't he make some sort of claim against them if they do that?
If there’s any record of him subleasing (like a pattern of monthly rent payments), most of the protections will apply. The roommate on the lease can’t legally force the subleaser out without the TAL hearing either. If they didn’t ask for permission to sublease, the roommate might have a problem with the landlord depending on the terms of the lease, but the tenant protections apply to anyone who’s renting living space.
That applies to Quebec only. Is OP in Quebec?
> I don't mean to be one of those people that shout "privilege" at every turn on the Internet, but most people with no savings and barely any income would be freaking out unless they had some family or support network to lean on, which I noticed any discussion of is suspiciously absent.
I understand the sentiment but I don’t understand why point it out. It’s not like the blog post in question is putting anyone down, complaining about anything, or being obnoxious.
There will always be someone more privileged than you are. Why constantly remind yourself (and others) about it if the more privileged person isn’t harming anyone?
I understand the sentiment but I don’t understand why point it out. It’s not like the blog post in question is putting anyone down, complaining about anything, or being obnoxious.
There will always be someone more privileged than you are. Why constantly remind yourself (and others) about it if the more privileged person isn’t harming anyone?
I point it out because he's leaving out a very important part of his story. He's come to the end of 2024 with no money left and no stable income, yet he talks about continuing on more of the same in 2025, so he's got to have some other significant support from somewhere, and that's critical to his story. In my mind the better analogy is fitness influencers that go into detail about their diet and exercise regimen, and then conveniently leave out their weekly testosterone shots.
I don't judge him at all for being privileged or what he's done. I judge him for leaving out what I think is the most important part of the story: how he could go on this journey and come to a point where he's got no money left but he isn't freaking out about being homeless or getting food.
I don't judge him at all for being privileged or what he's done. I judge him for leaving out what I think is the most important part of the story: how he could go on this journey and come to a point where he's got no money left but he isn't freaking out about being homeless or getting food.
I agree with your sentiment. I am at loss how he plans to pay his rent and food given 60$ to his account. The income he mentioned does not cover one month's rent. This is a stark difference between privilege and lack-thereof. The blog post is nonsense given he does not address any of his fixes, while leads me to believe he has family or spousal support (for otherwise, they would not be picking up new hobbies. I was once broke, and I recall being panicked and working gigs to pay my rent. The fact he is doing none of these leads me to agree with your observations).
I see a difference. Influencers try and sell you whatever they’re peddling and they’re manipulative because they hide part of the truth to make you think it’s easy.
This guy isn’t doing that, he’s writing some kind of report on doing his own thing. He’s not trying to sell you on it or anything.
This guy isn’t doing that, he’s writing some kind of report on doing his own thing. He’s not trying to sell you on it or anything.
Software entrepreneur + blog post + HN frontpage: call me cynic but there is always self-promotion in that combination.
Yeah this just sounds like my mom saying "finish your food because there's starving kids in africa".
Definitely feels like there is some sort of unmentioned safety net at play. Or guy is just fearless.
There is no problem surviving for a young healthy man in Montreal. One can always uber, deliveroo, tend bars etc, and it pays pretty well. Nothing to freak out about.
Fair enough, but then talking about this going forward would be a critical part of his story, because he talks about continuing on in 2025 developing his projects and essentially more of the same, which becomes considerably more difficult if he's going to spend 30-40 hours a week driving for Uber.
Folks, just live your life how it fits you. We're all born into a different set of circumstances that dictate many of the choices we make. We all have different ideas about what life means to us and what levels of risk we're comfortable taking. Listen to your gut and focus on what you'll be smiling about as you lie on your deathbed.
These past three year's markets have been super tough. It's the hardest I've worked in my life to be employed in the field I was interested in actually working in, which is building software. I've had to get two new roles in that time due to layoffs. 1000's of applications, and all that entails. I was ready to be a farmhand this summer before things actually worked out, figured I would get to work a farm on a lake, and fish on my time off, it's pretty much what I want to do when I retire, shouldn't be so bad. Just be flexible. Work as hard as you can to get what you want, but remember McDonalds pays nearly $20 an hour these days, if it keeps the lights on, don't be above it. Better than being homeless.
> McDonalds pays nearly $20 an hour these days, if it keeps the lights on, don't be above it.
I was between jobs several years ago and my startup failed - I ended up washing up at a restaurant to be able to continue feeding my family. At the time it was humiliating to be in my late 30s scrubbing pots and pans for the minimum wage but looking back it’s probably one of the periods of my life I’m most proud of: Putting pride aside to do what’s required to be a father and a provider.
I was between jobs several years ago and my startup failed - I ended up washing up at a restaurant to be able to continue feeding my family. At the time it was humiliating to be in my late 30s scrubbing pots and pans for the minimum wage but looking back it’s probably one of the periods of my life I’m most proud of: Putting pride aside to do what’s required to be a father and a provider.
> At the time it was humiliating to be in my late 30s scrubbing pots and pans for the minimum wage
I’m not sure if this is part of America’s “temporarily embarrassed millionaire” syndrome, but I don’t see anything wrong doing dishes for 8-12 hours straight to feed your family… unless this is actually the norm in thinking and maybe it’s just my poor blue collar upbringing?
I’m not sure if this is part of America’s “temporarily embarrassed millionaire” syndrome, but I don’t see anything wrong doing dishes for 8-12 hours straight to feed your family… unless this is actually the norm in thinking and maybe it’s just my poor blue collar upbringing?
I agree-there's nothing wrong with the means nor ends.
But, I'd bet that most people, after having failed a big endeavor that they put a lot of energy and time into, would feel at least some mixture of doubt/discouragement/disillusionment. Pile onto that resorting to less respected work (in a culture obsessed with money/power/prestige) and I can easily see how the parent commenter would feel some sort of humiliation during those times.
Nothing at all wrong with doing what is necessary to provide. Growing up we were poor... Lots of mac and cheese dinners. My parents were young, starting from nothing, and watching them struggle to build a little wealth was humbling.
From 15 to 19 I worked restaurant/shipment jobs, and carried a rifle in a warzone soon after that. Fast forward to present day - I sit at a desk and write software all day, getting paid well to do it. If I didn't have a job tomorrow you bet I'd be doing what it takes to provide. However, if I had to go back to the restaurant or shipment centers making 1/8th to 1/4 of what I do now you bet I'd be feeling pretty fucking pitiful about myself.
Do I look down on the work? Absolutely not. We do what we need to survive. IMO though, as a physically/mentally healthy person, the idea is using lower paying monotonous positions like washing dishes as a stepping stone for a more fulfilling and better paying career move.
From 15 to 19 I worked restaurant/shipment jobs, and carried a rifle in a warzone soon after that. Fast forward to present day - I sit at a desk and write software all day, getting paid well to do it. If I didn't have a job tomorrow you bet I'd be doing what it takes to provide. However, if I had to go back to the restaurant or shipment centers making 1/8th to 1/4 of what I do now you bet I'd be feeling pretty fucking pitiful about myself.
Do I look down on the work? Absolutely not. We do what we need to survive. IMO though, as a physically/mentally healthy person, the idea is using lower paying monotonous positions like washing dishes as a stepping stone for a more fulfilling and better paying career move.
[deleted]
I think that’s commendable! Out of curiosity, did you find a tech job again?
Yes, this was back in 2016 - I got back in my feet after about six months.
Glad to hear that!
I fear that we might be in the twilight of the software development job market:
https://www.hnhiringtrends.com/
Everybody got used to continuous growth, but I fear that for most people the music has stopped.
https://www.hnhiringtrends.com/
Everybody got used to continuous growth, but I fear that for most people the music has stopped.
This graph is pretty misleading because it starts right after the ~2008 recession and doesn't include data leading up to that, or any previous boom/bust iterations such as the ~2000 dotcom bubble bursting. The correlation with interest rates is also relevant, as somebody else noted.
This contention is actually trivial to dispel. As a late 2000's HN user, I can assure you there was no secret 2009 groundswell of jobs, and that there was no HN before 2008.
Without seriously digging into the data, 2001-ish (dot-bomb) was pretty much a nuclear winter for tech and 2008-or so was enough of a general downturn that I made the decision not to play my networking cards even though I didn't feel in a good place with my then-employer. Today doesn't seem great--certainly not quit a job/have a new job by Friday great for most much less work multiple "full-time" jobs like some people were boasting of a while back. Stuff is certainly not falling into your lap to the degree it was 2-3 years ago. You have to chase it and may or may not luck out.
2008-9 was pretty bad. When I got laid off I decided it was better to take myself off the market and go back to college a few months later to finish my degree (I had 2 more years of school left) than try to fight for a job right away.
I can't pull that trick off again. But at least right now I still have a job, and don't seem to be too much at risk of losing it for the moment (work at a consulting firm and developing some highly requested features that will make a lot of money at my current client).
I can't pull that trick off again. But at least right now I still have a job, and don't seem to be too much at risk of losing it for the moment (work at a consulting firm and developing some highly requested features that will make a lot of money at my current client).
My contention is that pronouncing doom for hiring in the software sector based on a graph that does not include any previous boom/bust cycles is, at best, misleading.
I actually didn't see that these data are HN-specific, but that only serves to reinforce my point in two ways: 1) HN is only a small sample of the overall industry, and 2) since HN hiring presumably skews disproportionately toward the startup/VC funded ecosystem, it's likely to be even harder hit by interest rate hikes and economic downturns.
I actually didn't see that these data are HN-specific, but that only serves to reinforce my point in two ways: 1) HN is only a small sample of the overall industry, and 2) since HN hiring presumably skews disproportionately toward the startup/VC funded ecosystem, it's likely to be even harder hit by interest rate hikes and economic downturns.
What? The contention is that jobs had booms and busts before HN. Starting off the low base of 2008, of course the graph shows growth. It does not show the 80s, 90s, or the dot com boom, or the dot com bust.
Is this data normalised to account for differences in traffic/popularity of the HN platform between 2008 - 2024?
Reason being: If the distributions of user types have changed over time (e.g. 2010 having a higher % of more entrepreneurial / founder type users vs employee-type fokls [like myself] looking for their next gig) then it could skew the results no?
Anecdotally the graph makes total sense. I'd just take the absolute ratio/differences with a pinch of salt.
Reason being: If the distributions of user types have changed over time (e.g. 2010 having a higher % of more entrepreneurial / founder type users vs employee-type fokls [like myself] looking for their next gig) then it could skew the results no?
Anecdotally the graph makes total sense. I'd just take the absolute ratio/differences with a pinch of salt.
I think this chart would have been greatly enhanced by adding Fed interest rates.
The way things were during the previous decade was not sustainable. The current situation too shall pass and hopefully evolve into something more sustainable.
I for one don't miss the churn fuelled by easy VC money.
The way things were during the previous decade was not sustainable. The current situation too shall pass and hopefully evolve into something more sustainable.
I for one don't miss the churn fuelled by easy VC money.
This has nothing to do with you, but the experience of Imgur on mobile is miserable. Want to zoom in to look at the picture closer? Too bad, here’s some dumb other picture not related to the one you were looking at
And there we have it, thank you.
Seems too rely on very little data
I also recommend adding a search with the hiring keyword "remote". It really highlights had the pandemic not happened...
What happened that inverted the curves? Purple realized that hiring here isn't a good habit?
It's tied to interest rates. My main concern, frankly, is that those very low interest rates will not return soon and in the meantime the IT job market will be flooded with tons of candidates which will not be absorbed by the market. So at least at the lower end of the job pyramid things will be a bloodbath, which will probably also start pressuring towards the mid-levels. So overall the IT job market will start sucking and the glory days of the 2000s (except for 2000, 2001, 2008, 2009), 2010s and early 2020s will remain behind us.
Completely agree. What is a "stable life" for some is complete chaos for others. What is "taking risks" for some is too safe and boring for others...
Speaking of different circumstances, here's a helpful income comparator based on actual numbers: https://wid.world/income-comparator/ . Figure out how common your situation is where you are.
Unfortunately, I only get this from the website:
{ "statusCode": "TypeError", "message": "Cannot read properties of undefined (reading '0')" } An error occurred
{ "statusCode": "TypeError", "message": "Cannot read properties of undefined (reading '0')" } An error occurred
Oh my god it's worse than we thought...
My gut is telling me to sleep around. I don't always listen to it
ashoeafoot(4)
If anyone else finds themself in this position, I highly recommend you sell what you can, pack the rest up into a storage unit, and travel, 4 or 6 months in each location.
$80k can easily last you 4+ years of very comfortable living in much of the world. Enjoy the food, really try and learn some of the local language, and enjoy yourself.
You can do it, and there won't be another window.
$80k can easily last you 4+ years of very comfortable living in much of the world. Enjoy the food, really try and learn some of the local language, and enjoy yourself.
You can do it, and there won't be another window.
My wife and I always say that the most dangerous show on television is "House Hunters International".
"I need a 3 bedroom apartment with a full kitchen in the village center, with at least parking for one car, I have a budget of $300/mo".
"Here's at least three options"
It also bring up a kind of discomfort between us, as tech workers, and regular people. The quantity of money we can earn, even at the lower end in the U.S., is unfathomable. It makes us want to go places and spend somewhat frivolously to support local businesses.
We were recently in Portugal. There's a ton of trendy food spots with prices near what we'd pay in HCOL U.S., but there's a ton of really local, mom 'n pop places, with absolutely incredibly prices, and they're incredibly appreciative of your business.
One place we frequented was maybe a 30 second walk from a very trendy tourist district, but served local food at very local prices. Ubers were lined up to drop people to go overpay for mediocre food in the district, literally on the street next to where we were eating. If they would have just taken a moment, they could have come and had a great relaxed meal and support some locals for almost next to nothing.
"I need a 3 bedroom apartment with a full kitchen in the village center, with at least parking for one car, I have a budget of $300/mo".
"Here's at least three options"
It also bring up a kind of discomfort between us, as tech workers, and regular people. The quantity of money we can earn, even at the lower end in the U.S., is unfathomable. It makes us want to go places and spend somewhat frivolously to support local businesses.
We were recently in Portugal. There's a ton of trendy food spots with prices near what we'd pay in HCOL U.S., but there's a ton of really local, mom 'n pop places, with absolutely incredibly prices, and they're incredibly appreciative of your business.
One place we frequented was maybe a 30 second walk from a very trendy tourist district, but served local food at very local prices. Ubers were lined up to drop people to go overpay for mediocre food in the district, literally on the street next to where we were eating. If they would have just taken a moment, they could have come and had a great relaxed meal and support some locals for almost next to nothing.
> We were recently in Portugal. There's a ton of trendy food spots with prices near what we'd pay in HCOL U.S., but there's a ton of really local, mom 'n pop places, with absolutely incredibly prices, and they're incredibly appreciative of your business.
I hear that - last time I was in Lisbon I got breakfast in one of those kind of places and had to ask the cashier if they made a mistake with the change and had given me back too much. Like literally, they could have charged double I would have accepted it as a fair price for a nice meal.
I hear that - last time I was in Lisbon I got breakfast in one of those kind of places and had to ask the cashier if they made a mistake with the change and had given me back too much. Like literally, they could have charged double I would have accepted it as a fair price for a nice meal.
That's great, unless you're a young person in Portugal being priced out of accomodation due to wealthy foreigners.
Yeah, we were sensitive to that fact. It's unfortunate.
We came across more than a couple business owners who had side hustles as property speculators. One owner basically said that he's buying whatever he can get his hands on since there's a guaranteed return.
As tourists we're of course part of the problem, but we're also a lot of the economy. I think Lisbon is also somewhat in a problem like San Francisco, constrained geography, and paradise for the climate, all creating very high demand from people who have the money. People with money will simply outpay people with less to live in more desirable areas.
It doesn't help that Portugal also has very cheap/easy long-term/permanent visa programs which doesn't help. They're almost one of the easiest ones globally that also gets you into the EU. https://www.globalcitizensolutions.com/portugal-residency-vi...
We came across more than a couple business owners who had side hustles as property speculators. One owner basically said that he's buying whatever he can get his hands on since there's a guaranteed return.
As tourists we're of course part of the problem, but we're also a lot of the economy. I think Lisbon is also somewhat in a problem like San Francisco, constrained geography, and paradise for the climate, all creating very high demand from people who have the money. People with money will simply outpay people with less to live in more desirable areas.
It doesn't help that Portugal also has very cheap/easy long-term/permanent visa programs which doesn't help. They're almost one of the easiest ones globally that also gets you into the EU. https://www.globalcitizensolutions.com/portugal-residency-vi...
As a Lisbon native, please don't feel like you're part of the problem. We've painted ourselves into a corner by failing to build more than a couple of thousand homes per year for a decade. I'm not even exaggerating, a few thousand new units per year is our current rate of building as a mega-popular European capital, home to 3 million people.
At the same time as we've completely failed to expand housing stock, we invented a new visa to allow wealthy foreigners to immigrate without a hitch. Then later a new visa to allow anyone who wanted to immigrate without a hitch (which about 600k people from developing economies took advantage of in the last five years).
There is nothing about our situation that has been worsened by tourism. It's the one economic sector driving the country forwards and I'm personally very grateful it has developed so much. A large part of my extended network can only make ends meet because of jobs created by tourism.
At the same time as we've completely failed to expand housing stock, we invented a new visa to allow wealthy foreigners to immigrate without a hitch. Then later a new visa to allow anyone who wanted to immigrate without a hitch (which about 600k people from developing economies took advantage of in the last five years).
There is nothing about our situation that has been worsened by tourism. It's the one economic sector driving the country forwards and I'm personally very grateful it has developed so much. A large part of my extended network can only make ends meet because of jobs created by tourism.
A large part of my extended network can only make ends meet because of jobs created by tourism.
Also true: the amount of money needed to make ends meet doubled because of the large influx of people…
The real question is: did the majority of natives improved their life with it?
Also true: the amount of money needed to make ends meet doubled because of the large influx of people…
The real question is: did the majority of natives improved their life with it?
Not a lie, but not globally true. The price of milk and bread hasn't gone up because of extra people. Neither has the pice of gas. I know plenty of people who own their homes or have old bulletproof rental contracts that have felt the crunch of rising prices.
I finished college right at the beginning of the financial crisis. I can't overstate how bad of a state Portugal was in around 2010. There have been no jobs and no money for a long time. Since I can remember we have been the third world of the first world. Tourism and outside investment in real estate have been the one thing that's capitalised Portugal in a decade. There's been nothing else for decades.
Of course you're right that there have been economic losers from this recent large influx of people. The poorer segment especially has been betrayed by a government who opened the doors to functionally slave labour from Pakistan. There's no competing with half a million people who will pay to work if they're given a contract that allows them to stay in the EU. But that's not tourism's fault. We created our own reality.
I finished college right at the beginning of the financial crisis. I can't overstate how bad of a state Portugal was in around 2010. There have been no jobs and no money for a long time. Since I can remember we have been the third world of the first world. Tourism and outside investment in real estate have been the one thing that's capitalised Portugal in a decade. There's been nothing else for decades.
Of course you're right that there have been economic losers from this recent large influx of people. The poorer segment especially has been betrayed by a government who opened the doors to functionally slave labour from Pakistan. There's no competing with half a million people who will pay to work if they're given a contract that allows them to stay in the EU. But that's not tourism's fault. We created our own reality.
The exact same conversations about lack of housing supply is happening in Ireland and the UK. The problem is highlighted now because the rate of immigration has increased sharply.
I have only met poor retirees when living abroad. The sort of people that have never been abroad before but love the low prices (and spend most of their time talking about it). I don’t think the House Hunters demographic has much money.
There are plenty of wealthy (by local standards) US retirees floating around the cheaper parts of Europe. The sort of folks who bought a house in New England in the 80's, and now it sold for a couple of million in cash - that sort of money goes a long way in a place like Spain or Portugal
As I near retirement I've thought about moving somewhere else, but never really thought about that someplace else being outside the US. But thinking about it, I think there are several other countries that would actually fit in well with most of what I'd need for a pleasant retirement. US citizens who retire abroad can still collect US Social Security so going abroad wouldn't affect my retirement income.
But what about healthcare? How do non-rich US citizens who retire abroad deal with that? There are actually two aspects to that--how do you get healthcare abroad, and if you later move back to the US are there problems getting on Medicare?
But what about healthcare? How do non-rich US citizens who retire abroad deal with that? There are actually two aspects to that--how do you get healthcare abroad, and if you later move back to the US are there problems getting on Medicare?
> But what about healthcare? How do non-rich US citizens who retire abroad deal with that?
You should look into it. It very much depends on the country.
But typically you just start paying taxes or fees or whatnot into whatever the national system is in place. Most countries will require you to have proof of some type of outside insurance before immigrating.
There are overseas specific health insurance plans you can get on -- typically not very expensive because healthcare in the rest of the world isn't insane. [1]
Most countries also have a cash-only payment schedule. Unlike the U.S., fees for health services are typically known up front.
In any case, even paying cash, you're likely to find healthcare outside of the U.S. (in tier-1 countries like the EU, Japan, Korea, etc.) to be high quality and very low cost -- often cheaper than healthcare in the U.S. with insurance.
1 - https://www.aetnainternational.com/
You should look into it. It very much depends on the country.
But typically you just start paying taxes or fees or whatnot into whatever the national system is in place. Most countries will require you to have proof of some type of outside insurance before immigrating.
There are overseas specific health insurance plans you can get on -- typically not very expensive because healthcare in the rest of the world isn't insane. [1]
Most countries also have a cash-only payment schedule. Unlike the U.S., fees for health services are typically known up front.
In any case, even paying cash, you're likely to find healthcare outside of the U.S. (in tier-1 countries like the EU, Japan, Korea, etc.) to be high quality and very low cost -- often cheaper than healthcare in the U.S. with insurance.
1 - https://www.aetnainternational.com/
> but there's a ton of really local, mom 'n pop places, with absolutely incredibly prices, and they're incredibly appreciative of your business
Yep, I was in Portugal back in June and was blown away by how nice it was. City life, the beach towns and overall prices of things. That was my first time going to the EU from the US.
I was on vacation so I ate out every day for all meals but I don't think I paid more than $5 for breakfasts and most sit down dinners were $12-15 all-in. I splurged one night in Lisbon and had the craziest plate of sushi I've ever seen and it was $18. That was from a 4.9 rated sushi bar with ~800 reviews.
My total food bill for 14 days of solo traveling was ~$475 and I wasn't purposely trying to budget. That includes randomly trying a lot of things that I normally wouldn't do like getting a fresh smoothie while walking around because why not. That food bill also includes 3 days in south western Spain because I moved around to a few cities (Seville, Spain -> Lagos, Portugal -> Lisbon, Portugal was the loop I took with day trips to a couple of places).
Yep, I was in Portugal back in June and was blown away by how nice it was. City life, the beach towns and overall prices of things. That was my first time going to the EU from the US.
I was on vacation so I ate out every day for all meals but I don't think I paid more than $5 for breakfasts and most sit down dinners were $12-15 all-in. I splurged one night in Lisbon and had the craziest plate of sushi I've ever seen and it was $18. That was from a 4.9 rated sushi bar with ~800 reviews.
My total food bill for 14 days of solo traveling was ~$475 and I wasn't purposely trying to budget. That includes randomly trying a lot of things that I normally wouldn't do like getting a fresh smoothie while walking around because why not. That food bill also includes 3 days in south western Spain because I moved around to a few cities (Seville, Spain -> Lagos, Portugal -> Lisbon, Portugal was the loop I took with day trips to a couple of places).
I second this, I had a seabass with potatoes for 5.5 eurs some years ago... not the nicest environment but it was clean and the food was delicious.
If it makes you feel any better, most of that show is faked. My friend was on it; she had already moved to another country and into her new apartment before applying to the show. Her apartment is where she “ended up”.
They flew her back to the US, where she’s from, to do filming there and have us friends come by to throw frisbees and talk about how much they’ll miss her. It was weird.
They flew her back to the US, where she’s from, to do filming there and have us friends come by to throw frisbees and talk about how much they’ll miss her. It was weird.
The trivial ability to use even a small fraction of this wealth to improve a huge amount of lives is exactly what the “effective altruist” crowd should be creaming themselves over.
The fact that I can buy a house in Thailand for something insanely cheap also means that I can make sure that the local school has whatever they need, for basically just a haircut.
You can take the local orphanage and make sure hundreds of kids are comfortable for hundreds of USD a month.
The fact that I can buy a house in Thailand for something insanely cheap also means that I can make sure that the local school has whatever they need, for basically just a haircut.
You can take the local orphanage and make sure hundreds of kids are comfortable for hundreds of USD a month.
USD and EUR are in for a massive correction in foreign exchange value. It's not like a dollar earned in reality is worth ten times more than what a person in Thailand earns. So enjoy it while it lasts. The law of supply and demand means that as the supply of USD and EUR to other countries increases, their value will decrease. Especially the EUR, which has nothing to back it up. At least the USD has the world police to back up the currency value.
Economy? No, no economy can back up EU or USA.
Btw, last decade has shown USA is not a global police anymore.
Btw, last decade has shown USA is not a global police anymore.
Foreign nations need USD because global trade is conducted in USD. Global leaders are arguing about this right in this very moment, BRICS feel they might leave the dollar without fear of being bombed. The EU has no military means to backup their currency exchange rate, only import and export. And if more Europeans are moving their spending abroad, that will diminish the value of EUR.
> One place we frequented
Got a name?
Got a name?
O Golfinho, literally right outside of LxFactory. You'd have to work hard to spend more than 12 euros a person. Simple, local food. Lots of specials (soup, sandwich, fries, beer for like 9-10 euro). Run by an older couple who spoke no English and treated us like we were their niece and nephew. I think both of us got in and out of there for under 20 euro combined.
For a bit higher-end, we liked Cantinho do Sol near the Marques De Pombal circle. I think we spent maybe 20-25 euros a person there, were stuffed to the gills, and nearly drown in our drinks. Employees were lovely Brazilians in the front of house and the owner, a local I think, was the chef.
For a bit higher-end, we liked Cantinho do Sol near the Marques De Pombal circle. I think we spent maybe 20-25 euros a person there, were stuffed to the gills, and nearly drown in our drinks. Employees were lovely Brazilians in the front of house and the owner, a local I think, was the chef.
My brother and his wife did this; quit their jobs and spent a year in Europe "slow living" (still did a bit of consulting work, maybe 10 hours/week), but with careful planning were able to keep their expenses waaay down (not sure of exact figure but much less than if living in the US). Month-long AirBNBs in non-tourist areas are inexpensive, so they'd spend 1 month in each place. A lot of walking, hiking, trains, just living. Not Paris, London or Zurich of course, but places like Albania, Montenegro, Portugal, Greece, Turkey, France of course. (Part of the reason for going to those countries is you can only spend so long in the Schengen Zone.) So you don't have to go as far as Vietnam or Ecuador to do this.
Obviously the OP has no children (and my brothers' kids are grown up) - if you have kids this changes the equation completely (though if they're very young then it can still work).
Obviously the OP has no children (and my brothers' kids are grown up) - if you have kids this changes the equation completely (though if they're very young then it can still work).
I have a cousin and his wife who did this with kids. They sold everything, bought an RV, and traveled north and Central America. They were homeschooling during that time. Their kids were 5 and 7.
It was not good.
I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea this is unless your children are under 3. Children need structure and permanency. They need friends, not just acquaintances. My cousin did everything else right, but his kids still have issues with relationships because 5 of their very formative years were spent without actual friends. It's really sad to think about.
For him, it was a wildly selfish move that negatively impacted his children. Don't be that guy.
It was not good.
I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea this is unless your children are under 3. Children need structure and permanency. They need friends, not just acquaintances. My cousin did everything else right, but his kids still have issues with relationships because 5 of their very formative years were spent without actual friends. It's really sad to think about.
For him, it was a wildly selfish move that negatively impacted his children. Don't be that guy.
I totally agree this is bad for the kids. Fwiw please try to encourage the kids to break out of their shell and socialize in college/high school/when they can. I moved a ton growing up, went to four different high schools, etc, and had a really hard time being “normal” with other people. In grad school I got a TA position that forced me to do 1:1 meetings with ~300 new students every semester, and that experience taught me how to be more normal. I’m still weird, but at least can fit in with Bay Area engineers. All this to say — I didn’t have their experience, but I think they can ameliorate it
Weird doesn't exist. You are not weird. You are not normal.
This may be different to your situation, but when i was younger I wanted people to like me, and if they didn't I'd blame myself for being weird. Now I'm older, I don't give a shit if people like me or not, and I've stopped thinking of myself as weird.
This may be different to your situation, but when i was younger I wanted people to like me, and if they didn't I'd blame myself for being weird. Now I'm older, I don't give a shit if people like me or not, and I've stopped thinking of myself as weird.
Weird definitely exists. If you can’t form social connections well with pretty much everyone you run into, you’re weird. You can pontificate about the proper terminology but that’s the one society understands.
I don't entirely buy that, I'd suggest there's a fair sized chunk of sampling bias in that statement.
Simply because the sample of people we encounter socially is skewed towards the pro-social, and the ones we notice and remember, doubly so.
There's a lot more quiet, reserved, low-key people out there than we realise, and most of them aren't weird.
(Also plenty of pro-social, extrovert types who are weird AF, but that's a different topic.)
Simply because the sample of people we encounter socially is skewed towards the pro-social, and the ones we notice and remember, doubly so.
There's a lot more quiet, reserved, low-key people out there than we realise, and most of them aren't weird.
(Also plenty of pro-social, extrovert types who are weird AF, but that's a different topic.)
I am very weird and quite capable of making friends with people. I am not super extrovert, I need concentrated down time. And will ignore people when I am doing the introvert phase. But overal people find me sociable. Weird just means not normal. It's basically a codified statistical concept.
There's whether or not you can make friends at all, and how choosy you are about who to make friends with, which aren't really the same thing.
As a moderate introvert (handle social situations OK but need the down time to balance), I just find some people aren't worth the effort, and like to save my energy for those that are.
But the weird/normal axis, I'm a little less comfortable with (similarly "neurotypical"/"neurodivergent"). Fundamentally I dislike the idea of letting the most boring people claim normal, in a similar way to how LGBTQ and nonwhite folks don't like it when cishet or white people claim normal. Most of the people I most enjoy spending time with are ADD, ADHD or ASD, and all the better for it. It's not like these are even disabilities, they're just different ways of being.
I'm OK with the labels themselves as a broad, shorthand way of understanding personality types / ways of seeing the world, but I don't buy that no-label people are more normal.
As a moderate introvert (handle social situations OK but need the down time to balance), I just find some people aren't worth the effort, and like to save my energy for those that are.
But the weird/normal axis, I'm a little less comfortable with (similarly "neurotypical"/"neurodivergent"). Fundamentally I dislike the idea of letting the most boring people claim normal, in a similar way to how LGBTQ and nonwhite folks don't like it when cishet or white people claim normal. Most of the people I most enjoy spending time with are ADD, ADHD or ASD, and all the better for it. It's not like these are even disabilities, they're just different ways of being.
I'm OK with the labels themselves as a broad, shorthand way of understanding personality types / ways of seeing the world, but I don't buy that no-label people are more normal.
I agree to some extent, and I am getting better at just being comfortable in my own skin, but I think social conventions matter too. Eg I shouldn’t act overly surprised when someone says they’re a morning person, but I should/can do that when they say they’re pregnant. If you get too many conventions wrong, people are uncomfortable lol
Edit: I realized I didn’t respond as directly as I’d like to. I think I do want people to like me, and that’s ok. I think it’s also ok to not care
Edit: I realized I didn’t respond as directly as I’d like to. I think I do want people to like me, and that’s ok. I think it’s also ok to not care
Thank you for the considered and insightful response. This is obviously a deeply person topic and each individual will have their own take on how they feel.
I think the key point in all of this, which you and others highlighted, is weird vs not weird is very much a consequence of social conventions. It's also important, generally speaking, to fit into these conventions to facilitate social cohesion. There are obviously extremes, which are outside of my considerations here.
I should have put more effort into my original comment but I was in a rush at the time. This bit might not apply to you, I don't know you, these are just my own poor articulations. Feeling like you are weird, or don't fit in, or make people uncomfortable, basically comes down to peoples reflections of their judgement on you. This is inescapable and to judge is human nature. But being on the wrong side of it, for long enough, can lead to a very negative mental state. Having the ability to realise you are not responsible for other peoples feelings is important. And also realising these feelings are largely dictated by the society you find yourself in is also important. These things can be changed, social circles need not be permanent, and should probably be changed if leading to a negative mental state, brought about because you feel you don't fit in.
I stand by my original point that there is no such thing as weird or normal, anymore so than some cultures or societies can appear weird or normal, which is highly relative. Otherwise intelligent and conscientious people should not believe themselves to be less than they are because they are at odds with their current time and place. As Yuval Noah Harari would say, society is a fiction.
I think the key point in all of this, which you and others highlighted, is weird vs not weird is very much a consequence of social conventions. It's also important, generally speaking, to fit into these conventions to facilitate social cohesion. There are obviously extremes, which are outside of my considerations here.
I should have put more effort into my original comment but I was in a rush at the time. This bit might not apply to you, I don't know you, these are just my own poor articulations. Feeling like you are weird, or don't fit in, or make people uncomfortable, basically comes down to peoples reflections of their judgement on you. This is inescapable and to judge is human nature. But being on the wrong side of it, for long enough, can lead to a very negative mental state. Having the ability to realise you are not responsible for other peoples feelings is important. And also realising these feelings are largely dictated by the society you find yourself in is also important. These things can be changed, social circles need not be permanent, and should probably be changed if leading to a negative mental state, brought about because you feel you don't fit in.
I stand by my original point that there is no such thing as weird or normal, anymore so than some cultures or societies can appear weird or normal, which is highly relative. Otherwise intelligent and conscientious people should not believe themselves to be less than they are because they are at odds with their current time and place. As Yuval Noah Harari would say, society is a fiction.
Don’t worry at all, I think your original post was fine too, and I agree with what you say! I think some of this comes down to personal preference, how you want to relate to the world, and who you want to surround yourself with. “Different strokes for different folks” :)
If most people aren’t like you, you are not normal by definition.
Good for you that you learned to cope with that. After the ‘don’t give a shit’ stage there usually is ‘sit back and observe’ stage to understand what exactly you don’t give a shit about.
Good for you that you learned to cope with that. After the ‘don’t give a shit’ stage there usually is ‘sit back and observe’ stage to understand what exactly you don’t give a shit about.
Sounds like you developed a bad coping mechanism imo, you absolutely should and still do care if people like you
I actually laughed out loud at how different this is to the usual "be yourself and to hell with what people think" advice. Can you elaborate on why it's so important to care if people like you?
Not OP, but we humans are social animals. As much as we may want to pretend we live alone just fine, it's not the common case. Sure, some people enjoy solitude and don't have to care about what others think, but most of us enjoy company, and this comes with caring about others and what they think of you.
You surely care about what your partner thinks about you. Your parents perhaps? Your friends? It's part of the emotional connection.
You can be laid back and easy going, but you're still going to care if your loved ones strongly go against your core beliefs and ways of living, right?
You surely care about what your partner thinks about you. Your parents perhaps? Your friends? It's part of the emotional connection.
You can be laid back and easy going, but you're still going to care if your loved ones strongly go against your core beliefs and ways of living, right?
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Well, people are generally social animals.
Also, whether we like it or not we depend on other people. If you want to get hired, reproduce, sell stuff, or just not be a hermit, it matters what people think of you.
Sometimes that means changing who you are. Sometimes it means finding people who are more like you (I know that I hate living in most rural areas based on the people I've met in them, for instance). Maybe a combination.
Also, whether we like it or not we depend on other people. If you want to get hired, reproduce, sell stuff, or just not be a hermit, it matters what people think of you.
Sometimes that means changing who you are. Sometimes it means finding people who are more like you (I know that I hate living in most rural areas based on the people I've met in them, for instance). Maybe a combination.
You’re the common protagonist in every scene of your personal story.
If everyone prefers not do deal with you, perhaps they are all toxic, terrible people. Or… there is a common element.
There’s a difference between defining yourself based on the expectations of others and being such an individual that nobody can relate.
If everyone prefers not do deal with you, perhaps they are all toxic, terrible people. Or… there is a common element.
There’s a difference between defining yourself based on the expectations of others and being such an individual that nobody can relate.
It’s basic human psychology
The "be yourself" crap generally doesnt work.
Good advice would be "be somebody else".
The self help books that teach various tricks... basically make one be someone else.
Good advice would be "be somebody else".
The self help books that teach various tricks... basically make one be someone else.
Yeah, most of the advice is really bad, because they want to avoid the harsh truth: that things aren't necessarily going to work out. You can't sell a self-help book that teaches "you need people to love you but you might be left alone forever". People want a guaranteed solution but that simply doesn't exist.
However, a lot of people, like the person I originally replied to, choose to remain alone, and that's often because they are scared of rejection or of being left alone. It's kind of ironic, like a contradiction. Longing for connection, but being so scared of rejection that you force the rejection to happen yourself, so that it doesn't happen to you involuntarily, but by forcing that rejection through self-isolation you basically guarantee your doom rather than opening the possibility for flourishing.
However, a lot of people, like the person I originally replied to, choose to remain alone, and that's often because they are scared of rejection or of being left alone. It's kind of ironic, like a contradiction. Longing for connection, but being so scared of rejection that you force the rejection to happen yourself, so that it doesn't happen to you involuntarily, but by forcing that rejection through self-isolation you basically guarantee your doom rather than opening the possibility for flourishing.
At the very least your parents need to tolerate you, because you depend on them for living during your early years. So early on it is a simple survival necessity.
It turns out that this necessity never truly goes away. Aside from merely surviving (e.g. you need your doctor to at least tolerate you) interacting with other human is what makes life more than just surviving. At least it’s like that for most people.
Even hermits and sociopaths need to be liked by at least one person, which is their own selves. Since the number must be at least one, it might as well be 2 or 3.
It turns out that this necessity never truly goes away. Aside from merely surviving (e.g. you need your doctor to at least tolerate you) interacting with other human is what makes life more than just surviving. At least it’s like that for most people.
Even hermits and sociopaths need to be liked by at least one person, which is their own selves. Since the number must be at least one, it might as well be 2 or 3.
> At the very least your parents need to tolerate you, because you depend on them for living during your early years. So early on it is a simple survival necessity.
Yep, and even a slight degradation of that trust that your parents that are necessary for your survival will protect you can have devastating, life-long psychological effects. And indeed everything can be traced back to that.
Perhaps controversial but I think this is the origin of most religion: baby is protected by infinitely powerful parents, child has shocking and painful revelation that their parents are not infinitely powerful and have all kinds of insecurities and weakness, therefore a forever infallible representative (e.g. God) is constructed to fill in that gap.
But I think that's just one way to fill the gap, and people engage in all kinds of strange, obsessive behaviours to try and reclaim that illusion of eternal protection and safety.
Yep, and even a slight degradation of that trust that your parents that are necessary for your survival will protect you can have devastating, life-long psychological effects. And indeed everything can be traced back to that.
Perhaps controversial but I think this is the origin of most religion: baby is protected by infinitely powerful parents, child has shocking and painful revelation that their parents are not infinitely powerful and have all kinds of insecurities and weakness, therefore a forever infallible representative (e.g. God) is constructed to fill in that gap.
But I think that's just one way to fill the gap, and people engage in all kinds of strange, obsessive behaviours to try and reclaim that illusion of eternal protection and safety.
This comment only has a slight amount of ground to stand on if you actually have a bunch of friends, otherwise it's just "hell is other people".
i used to think that moving frequently when i was young was the cause of why i didn't make any friends, but i realized that there was much more to it. if the kids have relationship issues, then i suspect it wasn't the frequent travel that caused that but it may also have been relationship issues with the parents as well. staying in one place and going to school may have mitigated the issue or it may have not. we can't say. my parents went through a divorce when we moved, and we didn't get any help from family or community while my parents tried to sort out their lives. there wasn't much, if anything they could have done better. the things that happened were more or less unavoidable.
obviously i don't know your cousin, but before you blame him, consider that there may have been other factors that you can't see, that were beyond their control.
the worst thing in my experience is relatives who think they know what i am doing wrong as a parent, without understanding the whole picture. (friends too, but once friends do that, they are no longer friends). try not to be that person.
obviously i don't know your cousin, but before you blame him, consider that there may have been other factors that you can't see, that were beyond their control.
the worst thing in my experience is relatives who think they know what i am doing wrong as a parent, without understanding the whole picture. (friends too, but once friends do that, they are no longer friends). try not to be that person.
Homeschooled kids are overfitted to their training data (parents).
> the worst thing in my experience is relatives who think they know what i am doing wrong as a parent
Glad someone said it! I’m disinclined to take any parenting advice from a peer group that’s been raising kids on tablets for the last 10 years. But ya, moving around is the concern hah. God forbid they see life outside the suburbs.
Glad someone said it! I’m disinclined to take any parenting advice from a peer group that’s been raising kids on tablets for the last 10 years. But ya, moving around is the concern hah. God forbid they see life outside the suburbs.
I dont really see the issue here? Obviously the parents are the stable anchor in that situation, and the kids probably had a great time traveling and exploring the world with their parents. I would honestly prefer that compared to the usual childhood experience you get nowadays, which is sitting around watching youtube brainrot right after being subjected to public school brainrot for 8 hours.
> I would honestly prefer that compared to the usual childhood experience you get nowadays, which is sitting around watching youtube brainrot right after being subjected to public school brainrot for 8 hours.
There are more alternatives than the extreme you're describing.
There are more alternatives than the extreme you're describing.
Kids need structure and permanency. This is child abuse, and I know people who have done it. Their kids are a mess, and it breaks my heart.
I am into sailing and know a bunch of people that grew up “cruising the world” on sailboats with their parents. They’re almost all well adjusted, successful, and have unusually good social skills from learning how to make friends with people from other cultures. I think the structure and permanence that kids need is emotionally mature and available parents- the physical part is not the important part. Also, kids can have mental health problems and developmental disorders that have nothing to do with parenting- and it’s pretty awful to blame parents for their kids problems unless they intentionally abused them.
Hol up. Sailing culture is VERY different from RV culture. I lived on a sailboat for years, going up and down the US coast, startup hopping. The sailing culture is very friendly, especially to kids (who are treated more like small adults than children). The people I met along the way are life-long friends. If I needed a ride to an auto store to pick up new house batteries, engine parts, or even to a Walmart, there were always people to give me a ride.
RV culture is much more lonely and expects people to be more self-sufficient. If you need help, there may or may not be people to help you; for sure, the whole campsite won’t jump to help, unlike a marina.
At least, that was my experience.
RV culture is much more lonely and expects people to be more self-sufficient. If you need help, there may or may not be people to help you; for sure, the whole campsite won’t jump to help, unlike a marina.
At least, that was my experience.
I don’t think that’s true of RV culture at all. I currently live on the road with my partner, and while we don’t yet have kids, we’ve met dozens of families and many more dozens of kids. All were more than capable of socializing and making friends, both with adults and other kids, and could often be found running around whatever campground or forest we were parked at.
Certainly you can live a very isolated life on the road, but just like when living in a house if you put yourself out there there is a welcoming community that will respond.
Yes, I absolutely love how other adults in the sailing community treat my kid with kindness and respect, and listen to them the same as any adult. Sailing is somewhat of a dying thing- few young people do it and the older people are mostly really excited to see kids in the community.
We don’t actually live on a sailboat in the sense of this discussion, but a lot of our friends do.
We don’t actually live on a sailboat in the sense of this discussion, but a lot of our friends do.
It’s funny you mention sailing. The couple people I know who grew up on a boat sailing like you describe no longer talk to their parents and long for a normal childhood they didn’t have.
I sounds to me like you are really upset about something awful that happened to you or people you care about, and not sharing the full story.
This is precisely the first thing I thought of. You can absolutely provide structure and strong friendships without physical proximity.
It's presumptuous to claim child abuse, since we fundamentally know very little about the situation.
I wouldn't say it's abuse, but it's certainly depriving the kids from learning how to develop socially. They aren't learning how to maintain friendships, and are being implicitly taught that such connections are disposable.
I've had the misfortune to see actual child abuse, from the story presented in the OP it doesn't rise even close to that level. Let's please reserve words/phrases like that for situations that warrant it.
It may not be an ideal parenting strategy, but claiming it's abuse cheapens the word. Are the children being fed properly? Are they being physically/sexually harmed? I've unfortunately had to intervene in a situation with my niece that involved the above 3.
The parenting method in the OP may not be ideal, but plenty of people have had childhoods like that My mom grew up moving every 5-8 months, her dad was a contractor for the TVA. There are still people who follow around contracting work. Please don't minimize that actual harm caused by child abuse by cheapening the term.
I wouldn't say it's abuse, but it's certainly depriving the kids from learning how to develop socially. They aren't learning how to maintain friendships, and are being implicitly taught that such connections are disposable.
I've had the misfortune to see actual child abuse, from the story presented in the OP it doesn't rise even close to that level. Let's please reserve words/phrases like that for situations that warrant it.
It may not be an ideal parenting strategy, but claiming it's abuse cheapens the word. Are the children being fed properly? Are they being physically/sexually harmed? I've unfortunately had to intervene in a situation with my niece that involved the above 3.
The parenting method in the OP may not be ideal, but plenty of people have had childhoods like that My mom grew up moving every 5-8 months, her dad was a contractor for the TVA. There are still people who follow around contracting work. Please don't minimize that actual harm caused by child abuse by cheapening the term.
While one is undoubtedly worse than the other, I don’t think it’s a good idea to say it’s not abuse because it’s not as bad as the worst possible variety.
I happen to agree this probably doesn’t rise to the level of child abuse, but there’s a large range between there and unfed/physically/sexually harmed.
We shouldn’t cheapen it, but we shouldn’t make it too expensive either.
I happen to agree this probably doesn’t rise to the level of child abuse, but there’s a large range between there and unfed/physically/sexually harmed.
We shouldn’t cheapen it, but we shouldn’t make it too expensive either.
You’re right. But this is decidedly not abuse; it’s a parenting style that many are unaccustomed to, and perhaps doesn’t work as well in the US, I have no idea.
But it’s not abuse.
You’re correct that physical/sexual harm and malnutrition are not the only things that constitute abuse either, though.
But it’s not abuse.
You’re correct that physical/sexual harm and malnutrition are not the only things that constitute abuse either, though.
Humans have been nomads for most of our existence. I think if the traveling group had been larger so that there were consistent friendships of various ages that it might have gone differently. Carnival workers are a modern example in NA, they have traveling homeschools as they go to each ren-fair or whatever. So there are permanent friends, but the structure is pretty lacking.
Yes I know a woman who grew up this way, moving every couple of years, nothing ever permanent. As an adult, she has lived a life of self-sabotage, quitting jobs, moving and starting over, in and out of relationships with self-destructive men, never saving any money, never really planning for the future.
My family moved nearly every year (and sometimes twice a year) until I was in high school. I loved the changes. I liked that when I went someplace new, the only thing my peers knew about me was what I told them. I made many friends over the years and I’d like to think that I am happy. So YMMV.
With how many of those friends do you still talk?
*Liking facebook photos does not count.
*Liking facebook photos does not count.
How many childhood friend does anyone still talk to beyond liking photos on facebook?
I used to talk with 2 of my neighbors.
Then guess what: I moved.
Then guess what: I moved.
This is correlation. Plenty of people are brought up this way and are completely fine, and plenty of people are just like this and stayed in one place their entire lives.
You just described a good friend of mine. He's one of the smartest and most capable people I know, but could never get out of his own way.
I know a woman who grew up in the typical way, in a stable loving household. As an adult, she has lived a life of self-sabotage, quitting jobs, moving and starting over, in and out of relationships with self-destructive men, never saving any money, never really planning for the future.
And I went to 7 different schools growing up, have since lived in several countries, have a master's degree and money in the bank.
Correlation != Causation. People are different and respond differently to various situations.
For me personally, having been in lots of places means I always have people to visit and in many cases a place to stay.
Correlation != Causation. People are different and respond differently to various situations.
For me personally, having been in lots of places means I always have people to visit and in many cases a place to stay.
I mean, the adult life you describe doesn't sound different from my brother, and growing up we moved once.
Edit: my brother grew up into a child abusing POS by neglecting his kids, but let's looks at statistics VS anecdotes since individuals from all backgrounds can be garbage people.
Edit: my brother grew up into a child abusing POS by neglecting his kids, but let's looks at statistics VS anecdotes since individuals from all backgrounds can be garbage people.
This is not child abuse. It’s an anecdote of two kids. I’m sure the parents were very loving. Another pair of kids could turn out perfectly fine doing this.
In the above scenario, they were depriving their kids of any kind of meaningful friendship with peers during a critical development period. This is neglect, and neglect is abuse in children. If you care about your children, why would you risk permanently impairing their ability to form healthy relationships?
I'm not sure the average school peers are any better. Unless we're talking private education. Do consider that for the better part of history, even in school, kids were not separated into years.
That they need permanency, sure but that's the parents and the living situation
That they need permanency, sure but that's the parents and the living situation
Agreed, separation into school grades by age is not normal or healthy. And abuse often happens in school.
You could argue more soundly that modern schools are child abuse if we follow the commenter’s line of reasoning.
You could argue more soundly that modern schools are child abuse if we follow the commenter’s line of reasoning.
> Kids need structure and permanency. This is child abuse
Sorry, but this is BS.
Structure, yes. Permanency, no.
And certainly not child abuse.
I know just as many examples of people with this experience, for whom it was amazingly positive and contributed to the successful people they are today.
Sorry, but this is BS.
Structure, yes. Permanency, no.
And certainly not child abuse.
I know just as many examples of people with this experience, for whom it was amazingly positive and contributed to the successful people they are today.
There is an extraordinary amount of scientific evidence that frequent moving during childhood severely impacts child psychology. I am not even sure how you can say it is BS while throwing up anecdotal experience.
Most of your "evidence" has to do with kids moving between foster homes, or families running out in the middle of the night because they don't have money to make rent.
That is nothing like what we are discussing here.
That is nothing like what we are discussing here.
No, this is extensively tested and include educated, higher social-class and stable families. Make a consultation with a practicing psychologist if you doubt the dozens of studies carried out across nations in both the West and the East.
"Even AFTER accounting for family background and achievement at the end of kindergarten, mobile students had significantly lower reading and math achievement tests scores in seventh grade."
"Frequent relocation was associated with higher rates of all measures of child dysfunction; 23% of children who moved frequently had repeated a grade vs 12% of children who never or infrequently moved. Eighteen percent of children who moved frequently had four or more behavioral problems vs 7% of children who never or infrequently moved. Use of logistic regression to control for potential confounding covariates demonstrated that children who moved frequently were 77% more likely to be reported to have four or more behavioral problems"
"Even AFTER accounting for family background and achievement at the end of kindergarten, mobile students had significantly lower reading and math achievement tests scores in seventh grade."
"Frequent relocation was associated with higher rates of all measures of child dysfunction; 23% of children who moved frequently had repeated a grade vs 12% of children who never or infrequently moved. Eighteen percent of children who moved frequently had four or more behavioral problems vs 7% of children who never or infrequently moved. Use of logistic regression to control for potential confounding covariates demonstrated that children who moved frequently were 77% more likely to be reported to have four or more behavioral problems"
If you're going to quote studies, you should cite then. Then we can pick apart what "mobile" means to your ivory tower researchers, which is almost definitely not "traveling the world as a healthy, happy, family unit."
Diplomats travel with their families. Employees of multi-nationals travel. US military travel. At least that last group (i.e. their kids) I know does better than average.
Diplomats travel with their families. Employees of multi-nationals travel. US military travel. At least that last group (i.e. their kids) I know does better than average.
Not OP, but he's quoting this article: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7689659/
Thanks.
It seems to me that their survey intermingles two very different groups – the larger group, those who moved due to extreme financial insecurity (who would do MUCH worse), and those who moved under "positive" circumstances.
It seems to me that their survey intermingles two very different groups – the larger group, those who moved due to extreme financial insecurity (who would do MUCH worse), and those who moved under "positive" circumstances.
The study of Third Culture Kids and the trouble they have is probably a good example of research on the topic that doesn't focus on foster kids.
A specific research paper isn't necessary in my opinion for this site and topic, but Wikipedia is a simple starting point to find some.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_culture_kid
A specific research paper isn't necessary in my opinion for this site and topic, but Wikipedia is a simple starting point to find some.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_culture_kid
The original OP is an anecdote. Could you link the extraordinary data? I want to see how they can empirically test this
Honestly, you can very easily find this yourself. Multiple independent studies carried out across both organizations and nations have shown this.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4866579/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S135382921...
For the layman:
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/17/health/moving-childhood-d...
https://www.psychiatrist.com/news/moving-even-once-in-childh...
https://www.verywellmind.com/moving-depression-and-your-chil...
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4866579/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S135382921...
For the layman:
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/17/health/moving-childhood-d...
https://www.psychiatrist.com/news/moving-even-once-in-childh...
https://www.verywellmind.com/moving-depression-and-your-chil...
Literally the first three proposed explanations in the discussion of the findings in the meta-study you linked are correlational. It is only the fourth proposed explanation that suggests a possible causal relationship.
And how much of this is just correlation and not due to mobility per se?
From the first link you provided:
> Firstly, increased risk for onset of mental disorders between mid-adolescence and early middle age could be a consequence of serious and enduring difficulties within families, rather than being a direct result of residential mobility. Relocation occurs more commonly amongst single parent and step families and those from lower socioeconomic background
From the first link you provided:
> Firstly, increased risk for onset of mental disorders between mid-adolescence and early middle age could be a consequence of serious and enduring difficulties within families, rather than being a direct result of residential mobility. Relocation occurs more commonly amongst single parent and step families and those from lower socioeconomic background
It cannot be dismissed as mere "correlation". These studies have been carried out on people of middle-class background too. Esp children of defense service personnel who have experienced frequent mobility. And studies carried out by different nations AND different cultures as well! Mental well-being is not mathematics - you cannot proof a definite cause with utterly no ambiguity.
Unfortunately, you took one single "could be" sentence out of an entire gamut of data confirming mobility-related mental health issues in children and completely ignored the conclusions section in that same paper, so I think you have already severely hardened your position and are unlikely to be convinced by anything I offer.
I would suggest simply talking to a practicing psychologist about this - you would probably be far more convinced than a HN commenter. Actually, this is where I first found out the same - I didn't know about this until a consultation with a psychologist.
(You can also ask your AI buddies - ChatGPT also confirmed it with several case studies offered.)
Unfortunately, you took one single "could be" sentence out of an entire gamut of data confirming mobility-related mental health issues in children and completely ignored the conclusions section in that same paper, so I think you have already severely hardened your position and are unlikely to be convinced by anything I offer.
I would suggest simply talking to a practicing psychologist about this - you would probably be far more convinced than a HN commenter. Actually, this is where I first found out the same - I didn't know about this until a consultation with a psychologist.
(You can also ask your AI buddies - ChatGPT also confirmed it with several case studies offered.)
At the same time I doubt anyone would use that kind of thing as evidence for forcibly settling nomadic cultures. I'm somewhat curious because I'm sure they try to do things like divorce socioeconomic factors, abuse, poverty, and other negatives from such a conclusion. But as someone who moved 7 times through 7th grade and attended at least 6 different schools through that interval, I'm generally quite grateful to not have been dulled and stultified by living in one place my whole life. To the point that I've contemplated planning at least one or two significant moves so my own children don't end up excessively influenced by whatever locality specific tints and delusions color a place. (Maybe another way to put it is its easier to boil frogs that have always lived in the same pot.) But I also do think it's nice for kids to have a solid friend group for a good part of childhood, and so forth. I suspect there's got to be a lot more complexity to this. (And I will say I do think there's a connection between moving a lot and loneliness, but I view loneliness as distinct from generalized depression. But totally not scientific.)
Please don’t trivialize child abuse like this.
RV living is very different from living in an actual home (or even Air Bnb) and moving around.
AirBnB’s and homes are located in areas and designed for living like normal social human beings.
RVs are parked in areas that are not designed to sustain long term living.
AirBnB’s and homes are located in areas and designed for living like normal social human beings.
RVs are parked in areas that are not designed to sustain long term living.
Socializing kids is about actual interactions with other kids. Something that nomadic life takes away from them.
In many cases they simply dont have any friends at all. Or are always the incomers.
Of course you can live in a place with lots of kids of your own age and still be lonly, or the kids can be dicks, but in my opinion there is benefit in socialization at age 4-10. Kids could go out ans play together. The nomads cant.
IMO permanent group of friends and place, repetition, predictability are a foundation for growth. Then you can sprinkle one off things on top. Not a life of unpredictable mess when you are on your own.
Also if you dont speak the local language how can one even socialize
In many cases they simply dont have any friends at all. Or are always the incomers.
Of course you can live in a place with lots of kids of your own age and still be lonly, or the kids can be dicks, but in my opinion there is benefit in socialization at age 4-10. Kids could go out ans play together. The nomads cant.
IMO permanent group of friends and place, repetition, predictability are a foundation for growth. Then you can sprinkle one off things on top. Not a life of unpredictable mess when you are on your own.
Also if you dont speak the local language how can one even socialize
Look, I get you may have a bad experience with loneliness growing up, but this doesn't generalise. Lots of us grew up traveling for one reason or another (RVs, sailboats, military/diplomatic kids, etc), and I'd say on average we're about as well-adjusted as the kids whole spent their whole childhood in one of the various school systems around the US
I would say don't be the guy judging another parent, or another anyone, for simply living their own life differently than you happened to choose to live yours. A different lifestyle isn't child abuse. Get over yourself.
We moved a lot as kids due to my dads jobs. It was nothing you can point at and call call crazy like living in a rv, just normal jobs like a million people have to deal with, yet has essentially the same effect as your nomad rv story. Some time in the air force followed by different electronics and computer engineering jobs that just resulted in a significant move every couple of years.
Depending on my mood I can say I didn't make a lot of friends or that I made exactly normal friends, and that any weirdness about me was caused by that, or was my own nature and that didn't change anything. I can think of argumants that sound reasonable both ways, and I can cite various facts (things about me, events and outcomes in my life, etc, and the same about others with different events and outcomes) that support both ways.
Which means what I choose to say or blame says more about me than anything else.
Every thing you can say about stability I can say something equal about conformity.
We moved a lot as kids due to my dads jobs. It was nothing you can point at and call call crazy like living in a rv, just normal jobs like a million people have to deal with, yet has essentially the same effect as your nomad rv story. Some time in the air force followed by different electronics and computer engineering jobs that just resulted in a significant move every couple of years.
Depending on my mood I can say I didn't make a lot of friends or that I made exactly normal friends, and that any weirdness about me was caused by that, or was my own nature and that didn't change anything. I can think of argumants that sound reasonable both ways, and I can cite various facts (things about me, events and outcomes in my life, etc, and the same about others with different events and outcomes) that support both ways.
Which means what I choose to say or blame says more about me than anything else.
Every thing you can say about stability I can say something equal about conformity.
Shouldn't something that unavoidably severe show up pretty clearly at a population level for military kids? I'd think there'd be some high-profile lawsuits by now.
Military kids hang out with other military kids for protracted periods (6+ months). Living in an ev in a foreign country where you don’t speak the language is different.
I mean, 'military brat' is definitely a stereotype. I'm not a sociologist so not familiar with relevant research, but I would be shocked if it hadn't been studied.
One thing I would point out is that military kids are in a far different scenario than the OP's cousins kids. Military kids will grow up moving from base to base, but the schools around bases are fundamentally different. Those are schools where teachers are used to student turnover, and the students are as well. OP talked about kids that were in a more nomadic situation, where they could only form brief <1mo friendships. The local culture of these communities is also used to and adapted somewhat to this.
That sounds like childhood trauma to me, the closest analog might not be military children but the foster care system. Not a 100% analog, since presumably the OP's cousins kids didn't have the pre-existing trauma that entry into that system necessitates, but that is the closest conventional analog I can think of. Moving around constantly into communities that aren't necessarily set up to deal with that is rough.
One thing I would point out is that military kids are in a far different scenario than the OP's cousins kids. Military kids will grow up moving from base to base, but the schools around bases are fundamentally different. Those are schools where teachers are used to student turnover, and the students are as well. OP talked about kids that were in a more nomadic situation, where they could only form brief <1mo friendships. The local culture of these communities is also used to and adapted somewhat to this.
That sounds like childhood trauma to me, the closest analog might not be military children but the foster care system. Not a 100% analog, since presumably the OP's cousins kids didn't have the pre-existing trauma that entry into that system necessitates, but that is the closest conventional analog I can think of. Moving around constantly into communities that aren't necessarily set up to deal with that is rough.
My mom was a navy brat in the 60's and 70's and she didn't like moving all the time, but has said that having a bunch of other families right next door all with little kids and stay at home moms actually made for a pretty great childhood.
We used to call them, “military brats”. Just like they used to call PTSD, “He lost his marbles. Couldn’t take the stress like a real man.”
If you want to debate something, don't pick another person's experience. There's no winning that.
I think it depends on the children and duration. 5 years might have been too long -- you start getting to age 10-12 stable friends become more important. But I know plenty of people who did it for a couple of years with kids - homeschooling - and it was a great opportunity for them.
Our neighbors a few years back had spent years living on a boat with their child up until age 6, I think it was, and it was great. And their daughter had a very positive experience. But yeah, once she was older they moved onshore.
I don't think moving itself has a negative effect. If you stay long enough for your kids to establish friendships, sometimes those friendships can remain when you move. My 8 year old boy still plays almost daily online + FaceTime with his friend from 1st grade in another city even though they were only a year together they established a bond that is very strong years later and they haven't seen each other. They're still best friends.
The usual YMMV.
Our neighbors a few years back had spent years living on a boat with their child up until age 6, I think it was, and it was great. And their daughter had a very positive experience. But yeah, once she was older they moved onshore.
I don't think moving itself has a negative effect. If you stay long enough for your kids to establish friendships, sometimes those friendships can remain when you move. My 8 year old boy still plays almost daily online + FaceTime with his friend from 1st grade in another city even though they were only a year together they established a bond that is very strong years later and they haven't seen each other. They're still best friends.
The usual YMMV.
What does issues with relationships mean in this context?
Also, it sounds like they were traveling for 5 years? Yeah, that does sound like a very long time - I imagine if it had been 1 year or so it might have been a very different story (?)
Also, it sounds like they were traveling for 5 years? Yeah, that does sound like a very long time - I imagine if it had been 1 year or so it might have been a very different story (?)
What exactly was not good?
Whereas in late-2024, go to Turkey if you’d like to blow through your savings faster than in Western Europe.
Right. Beautiful country and amazing people but even when I was there in 2022 people were really angry about inflation and now it seems even more dire looking at the exchange rate
they did it in 2023 but obviously yeah, it'll depend on the situation at the time and also where you go in a country
Same with the Adriatic. If you decide to stay in Dubrovnik or Split, for example, it'll be quite expensive, but there are other places to stay in Croatia that are non-touristy and inexpensive.
Same with the Adriatic. If you decide to stay in Dubrovnik or Split, for example, it'll be quite expensive, but there are other places to stay in Croatia that are non-touristy and inexpensive.
What visa did they use?
You can spend 6 months out of the year (and 90 consecutive days) in the Schengen on an US passport without any special visa, and these other countries usually let you stay as a tourist for 30 days without a visa, some 3 months.
Also Portugal has the Digital Nomad visa for 1 year renewable. That requires employment in the US (or elsewhere outside the EU) so not the same as what my brother was doing but a good option as the min wage requirements are not high; could get by with what would be part time work on a US salary esp in tech.
Also Portugal has the Digital Nomad visa for 1 year renewable. That requires employment in the US (or elsewhere outside the EU) so not the same as what my brother was doing but a good option as the min wage requirements are not high; could get by with what would be part time work on a US salary esp in tech.
You can visit for tourist or business reasons, not working.
I suspect that many of the housing problems in places like Lisbon’s old be solved if visas were enforced.
I suspect that many of the housing problems in places like Lisbon’s old be solved if visas were enforced.
Given that op talks about not staying in the Schengen zone too long, I assume they just used tourist visas.
When I lived in Ireland I occasionally met people who would bounce between Ireland/UK and Schengen to reset their visa clocks (people from US, Canada, etc. can spend 3 months at a time, or 6 months a year, in Schengen, though eventually you might start getting tougher questions).
When I lived in Ireland I occasionally met people who would bounce between Ireland/UK and Schengen to reset their visa clocks (people from US, Canada, etc. can spend 3 months at a time, or 6 months a year, in Schengen, though eventually you might start getting tougher questions).
Also some eastern countries have deadly diseases even these days, malaria, etc.
Malaria is about the north-south axis, not the east-west one.
There's no Malaria or other tropical deadly diseases in Eastern Europe and the Balkans.
There is some evidence Malaria is increasingly coming back to some places in southern Europe and the US despite being eradicated decades ago
https://www.wired.com/story/a-rare-domestic-resurgence-of-ma...
https://www.wired.com/story/a-rare-domestic-resurgence-of-ma...
Still, if OP was warning an American to not go to Eastern Europe because of malaria, if it's both places, anyway, their point is moot.
Malaria is mostly West Africa.
be careful about what you eat and drink but it’s not like you catch these diseases just from walking around.
be careful about what you eat and drink but it’s not like you catch these diseases just from walking around.
Malaria has absolutely nothing to do with food or drink.
Stories like this make me the most mad at the Landlords/NIMBY's (sometimes the same people).
An $80,000 "investment" into a one person startup should take you much much much farther than this, but it is completely gobbled up by literal rent-seekers.
BAcK iN mY dAy a room in a house would cost $400-$500/mo in most places in the Montreal-Waterloo corridor. Now runways have basically been halved (0.3x'd?) as an extra allowance to the landed gentry.
BAcK iN mY dAy a room in a house would cost $400-$500/mo in most places in the Montreal-Waterloo corridor. Now runways have basically been halved (0.3x'd?) as an extra allowance to the landed gentry.
Totally agree with this.
One of the biggest beneficiaries of the recent tech boom happen to be the owners of land and buildings in and around the cities that tech companies prefer to be around.
Also a strong argument for remote-first companies.
One of the biggest beneficiaries of the recent tech boom happen to be the owners of land and buildings in and around the cities that tech companies prefer to be around.
Also a strong argument for remote-first companies.
I used to rent a studio on Parc Lafontaine in Montreal for around $400 USD/month.
Beautiful space, clear view of Mont Royal, right off the park, ideal location (IMO) in the plateau.
Granted, this was around 15 years ago -- I shudder to think what the now-likely Airbnb units in that building go for these days, probably $400/night.
Beautiful space, clear view of Mont Royal, right off the park, ideal location (IMO) in the plateau.
Granted, this was around 15 years ago -- I shudder to think what the now-likely Airbnb units in that building go for these days, probably $400/night.
If you're spreading blame around, save some for the politicians who let in millions of immigrants despite the housing shortage
Impossible to estimate the amount of damage the runaway real estate market has done to competitiveness, innovation, and entrepreneurship in the interest of funnelling more free money to entitled landlords sitting on their asses cashing rent checks
Oh they're not sitting on their asses doing nothing. They're reinvesting the rent into buying, renting and/or flipping more property faster, screwing up things further for everyone.
If you do one thing to help, never call it the market. It's the restrictions on the market.
Yes, restrictions are a problem where they’re a problem. YIMBY can help.
They’re not the problem. You could not only ban all zoning/building restrictions but make it legal to shoot people who suggest or support them you’d barely begin to touch the problem.
Incentives regarding what to build (or when or if) are as big a piece of the puzzle. And the fact that the very simple and hugely microeconomic concept of marginal returns rarely (if ever) makes an appearance in this conversation is a serious indictment of the economic seriousness of its players when it comes to how supply gets built. Cost disease also matters in construction. There are lots of moving pieces.
Even when supplying isn’t socially restricted, there are market forces that contribute to rising costs.
They’re not the problem. You could not only ban all zoning/building restrictions but make it legal to shoot people who suggest or support them you’d barely begin to touch the problem.
Incentives regarding what to build (or when or if) are as big a piece of the puzzle. And the fact that the very simple and hugely microeconomic concept of marginal returns rarely (if ever) makes an appearance in this conversation is a serious indictment of the economic seriousness of its players when it comes to how supply gets built. Cost disease also matters in construction. There are lots of moving pieces.
Even when supplying isn’t socially restricted, there are market forces that contribute to rising costs.
I've heard people say this before, but when they point to a particular problem, such as the market currently building primarily studio and one bedroom apartments, you can usually find that there is a straight line from the incentives created through our land use restrictions and that problem.
What specific problem are you thinking of when you talk about market forces contributing to rising costs?
What specific problem are you thinking of when you talk about market forces contributing to rising costs?
Obviously, land use restrictions make a difference. I can think of a few acres down the street from where my parents house is that could easily be used to build about 48 units of modest (triplex/fourplex) density where a church on was just recently torn down. Neighbors NIMBYd a proposal along those lines.
OK, density/character politics strike again, familiar story.
But, notably, you could fit at least 12 single family homes with lot sizes that are 100% entirely in character with the surrounding neighborhood. Quite probably 16. Possibly as many as 20.
What's going in? 6 big lots + mcmansions.
Not because the city made the developer do it. Not because the neighbors wouldn't allow matching density. The difference between 16 and 48 might be a land use restriction problem, but the difference between 6 and 16 doesn't seem to be. For some reason, this is what the developer would rather build.
The microeconomic detail of the developer's decision isn't public, but it's a very well known phenomenon in many markets that producers do not want to oversupply and often target production a bit short of demand. This may not be true when marginal cost per unit is small (you may as well try to saturate the market and then create new demand)... but that doesn't describe housing, does it? Per unit costs are always non-trivial. Trying to maximize per-unit profit by producing short of demand may not be the only strategy, but it's an uncontroversial and reasonably incentivized one.
And this wouldn't be the first time that I'd heard that mcmansions on big lots can be considerably more profitable per unit. So I'm willing to bet that when these 6 houses go to market, they will sell for 2-5x comparable surrounding homes. There's comparables within a mile on smaller lots with multipliers in that range. So they'll get the same return from the project on without having to build as many units. And that's just on this site. In the geographic area, they will be keeping supply constrained and therefore keeping the marginal return on additional units they build higher.
Phrases like "per unit profit" and "diminishing marginal returns" commonly show up in some popular economic discussion in other markets -- agriculture at least. But for some reason, they're rare when not entirely absent from popular discussion of real estate development and housing.
I suspect additional significant dynamics with materials costs, financing costs, and price signaling (as well as supply) are also in play, but I'm probably a damned fool for posting as much as I have in hopes of a better public conversation and policy more beneficial for all. Probably would be smarter to find ways to play the game myself, especially given that existing homeowners share many incentives with developers. Other holiday activities are more likely to bring emotional rewards. Still, maybe someone smarter than me will provide me with the opportunity to discover why I'm wrong and more optimism is appropriate. That'd be a fine Christmas gift.
OK, density/character politics strike again, familiar story.
But, notably, you could fit at least 12 single family homes with lot sizes that are 100% entirely in character with the surrounding neighborhood. Quite probably 16. Possibly as many as 20.
What's going in? 6 big lots + mcmansions.
Not because the city made the developer do it. Not because the neighbors wouldn't allow matching density. The difference between 16 and 48 might be a land use restriction problem, but the difference between 6 and 16 doesn't seem to be. For some reason, this is what the developer would rather build.
The microeconomic detail of the developer's decision isn't public, but it's a very well known phenomenon in many markets that producers do not want to oversupply and often target production a bit short of demand. This may not be true when marginal cost per unit is small (you may as well try to saturate the market and then create new demand)... but that doesn't describe housing, does it? Per unit costs are always non-trivial. Trying to maximize per-unit profit by producing short of demand may not be the only strategy, but it's an uncontroversial and reasonably incentivized one.
And this wouldn't be the first time that I'd heard that mcmansions on big lots can be considerably more profitable per unit. So I'm willing to bet that when these 6 houses go to market, they will sell for 2-5x comparable surrounding homes. There's comparables within a mile on smaller lots with multipliers in that range. So they'll get the same return from the project on without having to build as many units. And that's just on this site. In the geographic area, they will be keeping supply constrained and therefore keeping the marginal return on additional units they build higher.
Phrases like "per unit profit" and "diminishing marginal returns" commonly show up in some popular economic discussion in other markets -- agriculture at least. But for some reason, they're rare when not entirely absent from popular discussion of real estate development and housing.
I suspect additional significant dynamics with materials costs, financing costs, and price signaling (as well as supply) are also in play, but I'm probably a damned fool for posting as much as I have in hopes of a better public conversation and policy more beneficial for all. Probably would be smarter to find ways to play the game myself, especially given that existing homeowners share many incentives with developers. Other holiday activities are more likely to bring emotional rewards. Still, maybe someone smarter than me will provide me with the opportunity to discover why I'm wrong and more optimism is appropriate. That'd be a fine Christmas gift.
Not only you suddenly will get the entire week for yourself, to do whatever you want, and you will be able to travel, but the other benefit is reviewing your relationship with material possessions.
I did that (sold everything, and went traveling), and now I own very little stuff. Apart from the mandatory laptop I need for work, and clothes, I couldn’t care less about everything else.
Before selling everything, I had a sick setup of dual monitors, and external DAC, speakers, headphones, keyboards, etc. Today, I need only laptop. I was considering getting one monitor, but can’t seem to justify the need.
It really teaches you how little material crap you need.
I did that (sold everything, and went traveling), and now I own very little stuff. Apart from the mandatory laptop I need for work, and clothes, I couldn’t care less about everything else.
Before selling everything, I had a sick setup of dual monitors, and external DAC, speakers, headphones, keyboards, etc. Today, I need only laptop. I was considering getting one monitor, but can’t seem to justify the need.
It really teaches you how little material crap you need.
You listed a bunch of crap most people wouldn’t buy anyways.
The bulk of what people own are things like furniture, artworks, plants, appliances, cookware… etc. Not particularly sexy, but essential for making a cozy place to live in the world.
The bulk of what people own are things like furniture, artworks, plants, appliances, cookware… etc. Not particularly sexy, but essential for making a cozy place to live in the world.
What I failed to mention is not only about the stuff you own, but in general your relationship with material possessions.
Before selling everything, I’d constantly worry about whether I should get a third monitor, maybe try a curved one, get a new keyboard, upgrade the TV, get a new kitchen appliance, replace the sofa, etc. There’s always “newer and better” for everything.
Nowadays, I don’t care anymore. I bought a TV because we like watching movies, but I don’t care about the technology or the next shiny thing. Same with my computer, I work on a 14” laptop for the past two years, and I no longer feel like I should chase a better or newer setup.
Before selling everything, I’d constantly worry about whether I should get a third monitor, maybe try a curved one, get a new keyboard, upgrade the TV, get a new kitchen appliance, replace the sofa, etc. There’s always “newer and better” for everything.
Nowadays, I don’t care anymore. I bought a TV because we like watching movies, but I don’t care about the technology or the next shiny thing. Same with my computer, I work on a 14” laptop for the past two years, and I no longer feel like I should chase a better or newer setup.
You may be surprised but the majority of people who own stuff do not worry whether they should get a third monitor or a new kitchen appliance. We just use some items and don't care much about them. If the TV breaks I'd look for a new one, but otherwise I don't care.
Same. The exception for me is tools, because I really enjoy building things and I own a house. I feel they’re inherently useful and I do research to ensure I get those that will last [nearly] a lifetime. I never buy a new tool because it’s new, only because the old one has become worn or broken.
The point is that even though you’re not chasing material possessions, you’re still probably chasing something.
True, I do chase freedom (always did), mainly time freedom and financial freedom.
I bet being able to spend time with the people I love the most is way more important that having the latest and greatest TV or fridge.
I bet being able to spend time with the people I love the most is way more important that having the latest and greatest TV or fridge.
I spend time with the people I love and only buy a new TV or fridge when the old one breaks. I didn’t need to sell all my possessions to do that. But to each their own.
I always think laptop only is fine, and then I suddenly have a screen and realize how much happier my neck is every day.
I wouldn't call dual monitors sick, barely entry level, but... https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08NSW5F8V they make good cheap external portable monitors that are laptop thin or thinner.
lol the person is happy with the minimal life and here we are trying to fix it for them pushing Amazon links.
Think long and hard before cramming your crap into a storage unit. Outside of possessions with some sentimental value, it's likely the money spent on a year or two of paying for a storage unit (particularly one that is climate controlled) exceeds the value of the things you're storing there.
Agree with this. I put all my stuff in storage several times. One time I put it all in a smaller rural town because a because cost was 1/5th of what it was in a big city ($70 a month vs $350 a month). But even then, the stuff was in there for 4 years so ($3360) + the van to move it and most of it could have been replaced for far less.
I eventually emptied it but I made the mistake is discarding books and trinkets that were actually memorabilia. I didn't interact with the trinkets or pull the books off the shelves. I didn't realize that just seeing them would trigger memories of where I bought them, who I was with, what I was into then, what songs were popular then, etc... so I regret getting rid of that stuff. But that was probably no more than 10 "book boxes" of stuff
I eventually emptied it but I made the mistake is discarding books and trinkets that were actually memorabilia. I didn't interact with the trinkets or pull the books off the shelves. I didn't realize that just seeing them would trigger memories of where I bought them, who I was with, what I was into then, what songs were popular then, etc... so I regret getting rid of that stuff. But that was probably no more than 10 "book boxes" of stuff
It’s not only about current value. As anyone who has had their house wiped out and an insurance payout, acquiring everything again when you settle back is a massive time sink (let alone cost, if you were insured at fair market value rather than replacement value)
So yeah, the rent on the unit might be more than your crap is worth, but having it all back in a blink (essentially) when moving back someplace has some intangible value too.
So yeah, the rent on the unit might be more than your crap is worth, but having it all back in a blink (essentially) when moving back someplace has some intangible value too.
They also tend to increase prices on a regular basis, and that more or less doubles your cost very quickly
But almost everyone has some possessions with sentimental value. Where should those be kept?
Friends or family, otherwise, you don’t really need it.
Not everybody has that
My point is, when you live on a boat or RV, or traveling around, you don't have a lot of space anyway. So, you will end up at a point where "thing goes in, thing goes out" or you won't have space. Might as well get to that point from the beginning. If you want to keep it, you'll need a friend to send stuff to anyway.
So, if you (somehow) don't have any friends, you won't be able to keep much anyway, except memories.
So, if you (somehow) don't have any friends, you won't be able to keep much anyway, except memories.
After a last horrible work experience, I decided to quit working for a while and travel. Haven't sold a lot of things, some are still stored at my parent's place but I managed to live off my saving for almost two years. I could have gone a lot longer but unfortunately some bad investment decisions and a long dream of obtaining a pilot license shortened my runway by a lot.
In the past months, my situation has gotten worse as I needed to tighten my belt due to my saving having almost completely melted. Hard but enriching times, I have now found a job after months of searching. The market in Europe isn't great these days. Back to hustling but without any regrets.
100% agree with OP, it was the experience of a lifetime for me. If I can give some additional advice, plan your finances. Even if you think a large sum will last you years and you're a bit lazy to plan it (as I was), don't be conservative with your forecast, plan large. Personally if I had to do it again, I'd try to keep half or one third aside for unexpected cases.
In the past months, my situation has gotten worse as I needed to tighten my belt due to my saving having almost completely melted. Hard but enriching times, I have now found a job after months of searching. The market in Europe isn't great these days. Back to hustling but without any regrets.
100% agree with OP, it was the experience of a lifetime for me. If I can give some additional advice, plan your finances. Even if you think a large sum will last you years and you're a bit lazy to plan it (as I was), don't be conservative with your forecast, plan large. Personally if I had to do it again, I'd try to keep half or one third aside for unexpected cases.
$80k will give you one year of very comfortable life in Central Europe. If you want to live in an international city in a decent flat 4 years is not realistic, more like 2.
I live in Poland in a city center in a metro area of 2 million people on $9k per year. That's rent free, because I own the place, adding rent would push the total cost to $13k per year. That's six years of living on $80k.
Also, I'm 42 and retired :) It's really easy to retire here when making software money.
Also, I'm 42 and retired :) It's really easy to retire here when making software money.
If you are willing to forgo a car, expensive food and be fine with a small studio, you can easily do 4 years on $80k in central Europe. You can do 10 years in many parts of the worlds and it'll require some adjustments but some places (ie: Vietnam) can be really okay and offer a night life unmatched by the US.
I'm afraid you underestimate rent costs. In smaller cities you may still find something nice for ~900 usd per month, in more popular places like Krakow, Prague ~1500 usd is more realistic but still optimistic.
This feels incredibly out of touch with reality. Since you mentioned Prague, the average salary in the Czech Republic is roughly $20k per year, and that's the average, plenty of people take home considerably less. You're saying $80k is not enough for more than a year, how do you think all those people manage to get by?
They dont manage to get by.
It's the same thing as in New York, just different currency.
Locals inheritted their apartments from parents or granparents, those with good jobs get a mortgage or burn their salaries on rent.
And the rest lives with roommates. Or spends hours ona bus or train to work.
Hence the fertility crisis in Central Europe: people dont want to have kids when they struggle with rent.
In Central Europe there is the saying that prices are western, but salaries are eastern.
Propert also gets bought by foreign investors like in Canada.
It's the same thing as in New York, just different currency.
Locals inheritted their apartments from parents or granparents, those with good jobs get a mortgage or burn their salaries on rent.
And the rest lives with roommates. Or spends hours ona bus or train to work.
Hence the fertility crisis in Central Europe: people dont want to have kids when they struggle with rent.
In Central Europe there is the saying that prices are western, but salaries are eastern.
Propert also gets bought by foreign investors like in Canada.
1500 usd for Prague with bills included. Rent in Prague in a very good location is about 1000 eur. The bills can be about 400. For 1500 usd as rent you're looking at some very fancy places.
Ok, so in 4 years you will spend 67200 usd for flat and bills alone. That leaves 267 usd monthly for other things.
I don't know about Prague but in Krakow you could find something decent for 1000 USD (including utilities). Even less if city centre is not a must.
4k pln for a flat in the center of Krakow? When may I move in? Or by "something decent" you understand 12m² "apartment" in Skawina:)
I used Airbnb in those cities and it was considerably cheaper. And Airbnb usually has a 4x markup on monthly rents.
The world is a big place, and central Europe is a small part of it.
In Thailand, you can live very very comfortably for 25k.
I’ll second this advice, counterintuitive though it may seem.
Back in the day, I had saved enough to take a nice 3 month leave of absence from work to do some travelling. Nudging my spreadsheet around, I tried replacing my rent, utilities etc. with the cost of a storage locker, and suddenly my “how long can I go for “ number shot up to over a year.
It changed my whole approach to life in my 30s, and it was a good 15 years before I committed to living in a single place long term again.
Back in the day, I had saved enough to take a nice 3 month leave of absence from work to do some travelling. Nudging my spreadsheet around, I tried replacing my rent, utilities etc. with the cost of a storage locker, and suddenly my “how long can I go for “ number shot up to over a year.
It changed my whole approach to life in my 30s, and it was a good 15 years before I committed to living in a single place long term again.
How did you go about finding cheap short term rentals?
Travelling accommodation was usually some form of $5/night beach bungalow in some remote corner of the world. Thus the big savings compared to living in the states.
While working, I’d pick up a cheap room in a shared house for a few months.
These days I’d just stay remote. Maybe upgrade by a few dollars a night for A/C, reliable power and good internet.
While working, I’d pick up a cheap room in a shared house for a few months.
These days I’d just stay remote. Maybe upgrade by a few dollars a night for A/C, reliable power and good internet.
If you’re an American and an engineer, how did you pick up work when needed internationally? I consider this, I’m a security engineer, but I haven’t had much progress considering how to pull it off, if not having an established consultancy.
At first I thought you meant you were living out of a storage locker
Sorry, but then what - money will just be magically waiting for you when you’re ready to come home? Having spent every penny to your name?
God it must be nice to be in a position where you can afford to just be like “ok my partner and I are just going to travel for four years, and after that, idk, things will work out somehow.”
God it must be nice to be in a position where you can afford to just be like “ok my partner and I are just going to travel for four years, and after that, idk, things will work out somehow.”
I did this. Was in a dead end job, left the job, traveled for a year, rented somewhere for 6 months, then out of money, moved in with parents... still here. Job opportunities where my parents live aren't great.
At the time the job was so boring, going nowhere, pretty easy.. I would do anything to go back in time to that role tbh..
I loved every second of traveling, and met some cool people, but none of that helps me find work now.
If you're a shy introvert, and struggle with social situations.. and you currently have a job, I'd advise to keep the job, even if it's not great, and try get something else lined up before leaving.
I have so many mental issues now (low self esteem etc)... therapy would probably help, but now I have no money sooo... I'm stuck in a loop of unemployable, no help due to no money, no money due to no work etc.
.. don't be me
At the time the job was so boring, going nowhere, pretty easy.. I would do anything to go back in time to that role tbh..
I loved every second of traveling, and met some cool people, but none of that helps me find work now.
If you're a shy introvert, and struggle with social situations.. and you currently have a job, I'd advise to keep the job, even if it's not great, and try get something else lined up before leaving.
I have so many mental issues now (low self esteem etc)... therapy would probably help, but now I have no money sooo... I'm stuck in a loop of unemployable, no help due to no money, no money due to no work etc.
.. don't be me
traveling alone doesn't help you find jobs, because you meet other travelers and random locals, but it doesn't help you build a network even if you are not shy introvert.
my strategy was to look for jobs in the places i wanted to go to or take remote job offers and then visit or move to the places of my employer.
that is what allowed me to spend a year in new zealand for example.
that's where i learned that new zealand is not a good job market. that's why i left again. i only got there because pike programmers like me were not easy to find.
what are your options now? are you looking for remote jobs? why do you think you are unemployable? can you use your time to improve your skills? feel free to reach out in private if you like to chat. email is in my profile
my strategy was to look for jobs in the places i wanted to go to or take remote job offers and then visit or move to the places of my employer.
that is what allowed me to spend a year in new zealand for example.
that's where i learned that new zealand is not a good job market. that's why i left again. i only got there because pike programmers like me were not easy to find.
what are your options now? are you looking for remote jobs? why do you think you are unemployable? can you use your time to improve your skills? feel free to reach out in private if you like to chat. email is in my profile
Yeaaah, I grew up and live in New Zealand.. yeah tech job market isn't so hot here.
I'll give you an email later. Thanks!
I'll give you an email later. Thanks!
Same as it would be nice to win the lottery. Not everyone is so lucky and others will be jealous they can’t do it too.
Some people don't mind living paycheck to paycheck. It has a downside but if it works for someone, I don't think judging it really helps.
I suspect there's very little overlap between that group and people who have $80k sitting around.
if someone is making poor life choices, they're going to be judged poorly for it. if those "poor" decisions aren't actually bad and are just outdated social attitudes, like judging gay people poorly because of the gender of who they love, then it's entirely right to question it. being gay isn't a choice so judging someone for that isn't right because they're consenting adults.
However, living beyond your means and buying luxuries you can't actually afford, and living a lavish lifestyle is entirely a personal decision. the problem with living paycheck to paycheck is that life happens. you get into an accident. there's a fire. your dog gets hurt. you get laid off, through no fault of your own. the company just decided to downsize. and now, because you don't have any savings, you can't absorb that loss, and then you're out on the street. homeless. hopefully not literally, there's a grace period before you're kicked out. but food and shelter aren't as solid as they were before. your life could become very difficult. all that hardship was an avoidable problem with an emergency fund because you weren't able to not doordash dinner.
However, living beyond your means and buying luxuries you can't actually afford, and living a lavish lifestyle is entirely a personal decision. the problem with living paycheck to paycheck is that life happens. you get into an accident. there's a fire. your dog gets hurt. you get laid off, through no fault of your own. the company just decided to downsize. and now, because you don't have any savings, you can't absorb that loss, and then you're out on the street. homeless. hopefully not literally, there's a grace period before you're kicked out. but food and shelter aren't as solid as they were before. your life could become very difficult. all that hardship was an avoidable problem with an emergency fund because you weren't able to not doordash dinner.
> and travel, 4 or 6 months in each location.
At least have a plan first and make sure you understand visas. I have fiends who sold up everything and moved to Switzerland only to be turned back at the airport because they didn’t know they couldn’t just move their life there unemployed
At least have a plan first and make sure you understand visas. I have fiends who sold up everything and moved to Switzerland only to be turned back at the airport because they didn’t know they couldn’t just move their life there unemployed
I'm sure if he had known he was not going to get a job, he would have taken your excellent advice.
It doesn’t sound like he was looking for a job. He was trying to start a business of some kind.
A lot of people start a business in parallel with a job search, or once their job search has completely failed. It both feels and sounds better (to a recruiter, or a journalist) than doing nothing.
Sure. But this guy says “At the end of 2022, when I quit my job to work on my projects, I made resolutions: to make $1M in revenue in 2025.”
Fair enough. From what I know about being unemployed, I am not sure I trust his retrospective narrative, but based on the information we're presented – have my upvote!
Fortunately, he blogged the whole time :) He has a post back in Jan 2023 saying the same thing.
As someone that hasn't been able to travel, this sounds wonderful
Which parts of the world? What kind of lifestyle? What kind of living situation? What kind of opportunities?
> into a storage unit
I've heard some terrible things about how vulnerable those are to theft / squatters.
I've heard some terrible things about how vulnerable those are to theft / squatters.
The problem in the US is healthcare.
In my state the health insurance marketplace only has 'bronze' plans that are in-network only (with mediocre options) and high deductibles, it costs 6-800 for individual and close to 1500-2k for a family.
The United States has rigged the employment market to forever keep you dependent on a corporate employer until retirement. Now these same companies are taking away remote work, forcing people close to expensive and increasingly annoying cities like New York City, where the median one bedroom is one million to buy.
So, for giving your time to a company, your reward is never being able to be fully independent without huge risk. Healthcare is the Company Store Voucher of the modern era.
Has anyone else considered leaving the United States long before retirement age?
In my state the health insurance marketplace only has 'bronze' plans that are in-network only (with mediocre options) and high deductibles, it costs 6-800 for individual and close to 1500-2k for a family.
The United States has rigged the employment market to forever keep you dependent on a corporate employer until retirement. Now these same companies are taking away remote work, forcing people close to expensive and increasingly annoying cities like New York City, where the median one bedroom is one million to buy.
So, for giving your time to a company, your reward is never being able to be fully independent without huge risk. Healthcare is the Company Store Voucher of the modern era.
Has anyone else considered leaving the United States long before retirement age?
In Canada you just die before you get a family doctor :)
Last time I went to the ER, the wait was 10h for kidney stones. Thankfully I passed out for 4h in the waiting room from the pain and the stones passed by the time I saw a doctor, so all they did was send me home.
My family doctor died 10 years ago and I'm still on a list.
Last time I went to the ER, the wait was 10h for kidney stones. Thankfully I passed out for 4h in the waiting room from the pain and the stones passed by the time I saw a doctor, so all they did was send me home.
My family doctor died 10 years ago and I'm still on a list.
My brother (Australian) spent some time in Canada and was able to see a doctor straight away and really cheaply a bunch of times, and visited the hospital once with a nasty foot injury with no dramas. It seemed like a pretty good system.
I remember contrasting that with my US experience at the same time, where a 10 minute consult with a doctor cost 600USD. I had a really obvious ear infection, just needed some antibiotics, but he must have seen me as a cash-cow and ordered a ton of unrelated blood tests that were pointless since I was flying out the next day. I walked away feeling like I'd been scammed.
(In Australia a doctor's visit is under 30USD, blood tests don't cost much either)
I remember contrasting that with my US experience at the same time, where a 10 minute consult with a doctor cost 600USD. I had a really obvious ear infection, just needed some antibiotics, but he must have seen me as a cash-cow and ordered a ton of unrelated blood tests that were pointless since I was flying out the next day. I walked away feeling like I'd been scammed.
(In Australia a doctor's visit is under 30USD, blood tests don't cost much either)
Everything is a distribution. Most Canadians spend 6h+ waiting for a doctor in the ER, and 20% of Canadians don't have access to a family doctor.
Your brother was very lucky, or this is fake.
Your brother was very lucky, or this is fake.
This entire thread makes me think you guys over there in the north-American continent are living in literal hell. And I'm not even saying this from a "first world" European country. I'm saying this from a so-called "shithole" country at the bottom of Africa, South Africa to be precise. The last thing I had to worry about wrt my medical was whether or not I was using all my "benefits". The deductible (or excess) is basically peanuts (or zero) for most things, and I have so far in my entire adult life never had to pay a deductible. I get a doctor's appointment at a moments notice, ER rooms are practically empty and really just 24-hour doctor's rooms with access to hospital equipment, pay for nothing out of my pocket, they cover all my meds, they cover my entire hospital stay, I wait for at-most weeks for certain specialists (that are all leaving the country btw, due to government), and never worry that medical bills will bankrupt me.
Of course, as with most things, government in South Africa is basically jealous of private medical insurance here and is trying to destroy it because public healthcare is a failure here. We really need to add a third item to this list: Nothing in life is certain, except for death, taxes and the government fucking up everything it touches.
Of course, as with most things, government in South Africa is basically jealous of private medical insurance here and is trying to destroy it because public healthcare is a failure here. We really need to add a third item to this list: Nothing in life is certain, except for death, taxes and the government fucking up everything it touches.
In the US, 70-80% of the time they just send people with unpassed kidney stones home from the ER. With painkillers and a giant bill.
At least you get the painkillers. Not sure what else they'd really do for non-emergent kidney stones anyway. Painkillers is probably the best you can hope for, and getting them quickly and sent home sounds like a great outcome to me.
Well, it's not instant in the US either. All ERs triage and kidney stones are low priority. I'm not sure how long is standard, but even if admission took less than an hour, you're still low in the MD's priority.
A friend just had them and he was in the hospital a few hrs while they IV flushed him with some chemical magic that supposedly helped dissolve them. I think the bill with insurance was 250.
Happened to me in Canada too, minus the painkillers.
If you're from Ontario, you might want to call the health care connect people... I was on a list for roughly a year and a half, then out of the blue I got 2 referrals in 2 months (the first one never called me)... while the one I got isn't a typical family doctor, just having someone to help me with my needs is a start...
Then you merely have unreasonably long waits for specialists and testing, and then more waiting for treatment!
It's super cool when you have to go through a chain of several specialists while dialing in on the problem. Especially when the default diagnosis is typically: "it's probably nothing, wait six weeks and make another appointment if it's still an issue...", lol.
Do you really need a family doctor? I've never had one. Whenever I've had a non-emergency issue (in BC), I've just gone to a walk-in clinic where they've either helped me on the spot or referred me to a specialist. I can definitely see why having a family doctor might be a more pleasant overall experience, but as far as I understand in Canada it's practically a pipe dream.
There are no more walk/in clinics in Canada , you have to make an appointment and they will give you one based on the availability and your issue.. also when you see a specialist, they will now require a primary doctor source who will get CC’d on your test results , etc.
This is... incredible if true. How can this be? I looked up the old walk-in I used to go to (haven't needed it in a while) and it still shows up on maps but the most recent reviews says they "don't do walk-ins anymore". In which case I don't really understand what they do. Genuinely curious about the situation if anyone cares to chime in.
They're basically stand ins for family doctors. About 17% of Canadians no longer have access to primary care physicians and have to rely on either walk ins, urgent care, or the emergency room.
COVID was a big one; lot of doctors decided to just retire at once. But primary care physicians are facing issues of the workforce aging out. I think about 18,000 of the 48,000 primary care physicians are set to retire by 2030, but we only add in about 1600 new primary care physicians a year. So by we'll be down by 8400 primary care physicians by 2030 and then however many years it takes to back fill to 2024 levels.
Meanwhile Canada's increased it's population from 37 million in 2019 to 41 million in 2024, with projections of us hitting around 43 to 44 million by 2030.
Most of it stems from the fact that lot of doctors don't want to be primary care physicians. The hours aren't terrible but the pay is low good compared to their specialist care counterparts, and they have far more administrative overhead then any other specialty. And often the work is miserable and thankless. I can't remember who said it but IIRC family doctors have the highest burn out rate out of all physicians.
This is all third hand information so take it for what it's worth, and I'm assuming that I've got an overly simplified view of the issue. Someone in the medical field could probably answer better then me.
COVID was a big one; lot of doctors decided to just retire at once. But primary care physicians are facing issues of the workforce aging out. I think about 18,000 of the 48,000 primary care physicians are set to retire by 2030, but we only add in about 1600 new primary care physicians a year. So by we'll be down by 8400 primary care physicians by 2030 and then however many years it takes to back fill to 2024 levels.
Meanwhile Canada's increased it's population from 37 million in 2019 to 41 million in 2024, with projections of us hitting around 43 to 44 million by 2030.
Most of it stems from the fact that lot of doctors don't want to be primary care physicians. The hours aren't terrible but the pay is low good compared to their specialist care counterparts, and they have far more administrative overhead then any other specialty. And often the work is miserable and thankless. I can't remember who said it but IIRC family doctors have the highest burn out rate out of all physicians.
This is all third hand information so take it for what it's worth, and I'm assuming that I've got an overly simplified view of the issue. Someone in the medical field could probably answer better then me.
Can't find a primary care doctor in the US either, so we're even.
Have you tried calling doctors directly?
Sometimes there are information gaps between their capacity and the provincial bureaucracy.
Sometimes there are information gaps between their capacity and the provincial bureaucracy.
Surprised you weren't offered MAID.
Being your own employer is the only way to take charge of this.
Platforms like Gusto, etc. make it so even small businesses can offer benefits and insurance like bigger companies do.
I went though various big and small employers plans, several states' exchanges, and none were nearly as good as doing the legwork to get benefits setup for my own company. Now I choose.
Platforms like Gusto, etc. make it so even small businesses can offer benefits and insurance like bigger companies do.
I went though various big and small employers plans, several states' exchanges, and none were nearly as good as doing the legwork to get benefits setup for my own company. Now I choose.
In some states the insurance group policy won't be available for a one person LLC, and there's no option direct from the health insurance companies, so all that remains is the state marketplace. I tried. I ended up signing up with an agency that basically put me as a W2 employee and took a fee, so I could use their so-so but better networked group insurance.
Is Gusto for stuff like that? Single member LLCs?
Is Gusto for stuff like that? Single member LLCs?
This may vary by state, but in Washington my broker tells me that a one-person LLC can work, if it elects to be taxed as a corporation so it can issue that person a W-2. Which accountants hate because of the potential extra taxes, but as she says, "my job is to get you health insurance, not reduce your taxes".
That's for a C Corp, check out S Corps.
I disagree, I think it's there job to help you reduce your taxes, if they're able to do so legally. I'd look for accountants who think so too.
I disagree, I think it's there job to help you reduce your taxes, if they're able to do so legally. I'd look for accountants who think so too.
Yes, that's exactly what's it's for, also bigger companies. For smaller ones they sort of bundle you in with other small companies for the insurance, is my understanding. You may not have as many options, but they're better in the same ways an employer plan is, because they are one.
How do the costs pencil out on that, if you are signing up with Gusto etc. only for access to the health care plans? Presumably you need some minimum payroll or something?
Yes, even of you are a one person company you need to pay yourself through some sort of payroll service so that you stay compliant with all the regulations and pay things like disability, various taxes, etc. So you already need them, or similar, to handle that stuff.
The minimum payroll is defined by the minimum wage in your local area, keep in mind you can also choose how many hours you work.
The minimum payroll is defined by the minimum wage in your local area, keep in mind you can also choose how many hours you work.
This sounds like one hell of a hack! Can you go into a bit more detail about how you have it set up?
Someday I'll write a blog post about it. Feel free to reach out to me, contact info is in my bio. I'll be happy to share anything you'd be interested in.
This seems like an incredibly useful piece of information to anyone who doesn't have trad employment in the US. I found on Gusto's site info about how you can write off your insurance costs if you meet certain criteria. Is the benefit this, or something else?
Yes, theyre deductable for any employer, this is no different.
Lots of benefits including this. It gives you the same power and security a employer plan does, because it is. In my experience the marketplaces and insurance from them can be a minefield needing navigation.
>Being your own employer is the only way to take charge of this.
One step further, being your own doctor when ever possible is even better. Bring out the rusty knife for surgery, a club for anesthesia etc. most surgeries are not rocket science.
One step further, being your own doctor when ever possible is even better. Bring out the rusty knife for surgery, a club for anesthesia etc. most surgeries are not rocket science.
I'm trying to figure this comment out. What point are you trying to make?
Even if you had all the money in the world, the medical system is very inadequate, for a variety of reasons. If you find a doctor that is competent AND conscientious, good for you, else you have to fend for yourself. Philosophically I'm an anarchist of sorts, and I believe that doctors should not have monopoly on practicing medicine. So if you can get away with doing safe medicine, be it pills or surgery, go for it.
I've been designing medical devices , complicated ones like surgical robots and artificial hearts.
Trust me, you want modern medicine, the kind that comes from factories and hospitals. Not what you can cook up in your backyard.
Modern medicine is truly magical, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. We just need to make sure it doesn't bankrupt us to get it.
Trust me, you want modern medicine, the kind that comes from factories and hospitals. Not what you can cook up in your backyard.
Modern medicine is truly magical, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. We just need to make sure it doesn't bankrupt us to get it.
>Modern medicine is truly magical,
Assuming that you have done your homework and that you are right. ( a lot of especially young people think that things are magical now, while IMO some things have regressed) .
>We just need to make sure it doesn't bankrupt us to get it.
Why shouldn't a motivated/intelligent layman try and get hold of those devices and learn them? Yes things can go wrong, but what _real_ suggestions you have for people to get procedures done, safely AND reasonably priced?
Assuming that you have done your homework and that you are right. ( a lot of especially young people think that things are magical now, while IMO some things have regressed) .
>We just need to make sure it doesn't bankrupt us to get it.
Why shouldn't a motivated/intelligent layman try and get hold of those devices and learn them? Yes things can go wrong, but what _real_ suggestions you have for people to get procedures done, safely AND reasonably priced?
Things have not regressed. Have you driven in a modern car? Flown in a modern plane?
"Why shouldn't a motivated/intelligent layman try and get hold of those devices and learn them?"
Why don you buy a typewriter and write Shakespeare?
You really just assume that you, untrained and unexperienced would be better than a trained professional? You would really cut open your partner or child, cut out a section of their bowels, sew them back together, and know all the right drugs to give and have the half million dollar anesthesia machine? Do you have the MRI machine you need to diagnose this?
It's the same reason we don't just let anyone work on airliners.
Someone who thinks they can do this is dangerous, and borderline psychopath. I'd encourage them to watch one live surgury first. Saying you can fo something like this without even seeing it once is why this shows too much unfounded confidence. Yikes.
"Why shouldn't a motivated/intelligent layman try and get hold of those devices and learn them?"
Why don you buy a typewriter and write Shakespeare?
You really just assume that you, untrained and unexperienced would be better than a trained professional? You would really cut open your partner or child, cut out a section of their bowels, sew them back together, and know all the right drugs to give and have the half million dollar anesthesia machine? Do you have the MRI machine you need to diagnose this?
It's the same reason we don't just let anyone work on airliners.
Someone who thinks they can do this is dangerous, and borderline psychopath. I'd encourage them to watch one live surgury first. Saying you can fo something like this without even seeing it once is why this shows too much unfounded confidence. Yikes.
>Someone who thinks they can do this is dangerous, and borderline psychopath.
Can tell right away that you aren't too bright. It's attitude like that that gives rise to guilds.
Can tell right away that you aren't too bright. It's attitude like that that gives rise to guilds.
"...gives rise to guilds"
Are you a barbarian from the middle ages?
Are you a barbarian from the middle ages?
[deleted]
I'm in Illinois, my bronze marketplace plan was $247/mo this year, and the coverage was good (for what I used at least). 2025 plans look to be going up $50/mo or so which is annoying. Still a good chunk to have to pay, but nowhere near as bad as your situation.
Makes me curious how much marketplace costs vary per state?
In any case, as another person pointed out, the ACA plans also provide very high premium credits for low income households, covering up to ~80% of the costs (from what I've seen). But this also varies by state, I think.
Makes me curious how much marketplace costs vary per state?
In any case, as another person pointed out, the ACA plans also provide very high premium credits for low income households, covering up to ~80% of the costs (from what I've seen). But this also varies by state, I think.
> Has anyone else considered leaving the United States long before retirement age?
Yes. I'm American but was born in a small country in Eastern Europe. I was planning on moving back during the pandemic, however I was presented with some job prospects I couldn't reject and my move was delayed. But I do plan on retiring in my hometown within two years. There is universal healthcare which sucks for the most part, but private insurance is extremely cheap (compared to the US) and I could retire more than comfortably with my current nw. And by 'retire' I don't mean stop working, I mean I'm going to work on whatever I want.
And to your original point about healthcare, it is the absolute single reason for why I did not take any sabbaticals or long term leave even while burned out, for my insomnia during layoff seasons and generally for my job related stress.
Yes. I'm American but was born in a small country in Eastern Europe. I was planning on moving back during the pandemic, however I was presented with some job prospects I couldn't reject and my move was delayed. But I do plan on retiring in my hometown within two years. There is universal healthcare which sucks for the most part, but private insurance is extremely cheap (compared to the US) and I could retire more than comfortably with my current nw. And by 'retire' I don't mean stop working, I mean I'm going to work on whatever I want.
And to your original point about healthcare, it is the absolute single reason for why I did not take any sabbaticals or long term leave even while burned out, for my insomnia during layoff seasons and generally for my job related stress.
The bronze plans are basically catastrophic insurance, not preventative care. If you want that you have to take it into your own hands in the USA; eat right, exercise, do the annual checkup Mine paid out when I had an appendix close to exploding and several days in the hospital. Of course I paid the deductible which was $6500, however the remaining portion would have put a large dent in my retirement fund, but thanks to the “bronze” plan, I was fine. So what is the risk for me?
I did. Healthcare was a big part of that decision. My older siblings have been through hell both medically and financially because of the US healthcare system.
I decided to learn from their experiences and GTFO while I could. I miss my family and friends dearly, but it’s a massive relief (and privilege) to be able to get the care I need and not worry about whether the cost is going to bankrupt me.
I decided to learn from their experiences and GTFO while I could. I miss my family and friends dearly, but it’s a massive relief (and privilege) to be able to get the care I need and not worry about whether the cost is going to bankrupt me.
Where did you end up going? I have some savings and would like to retire early, and getting health insurance is an impediment to that. Need somewhere that doesn’t require a work visa and is a good place to raise a family. I have enough to do it in the US but would be happy to consider alternatives.
To Portugal. If you have enough assets to retire in the US then you probably qualify for the passive income visa.
It’s not all smooth sailing, though. The immigration agency here (AIMA) currently has 300,000 cases in the queue. It’s so difficult to get an appointment that people are making hundreds of calls per day, standing in queues for hours only to not be seen, and filing lawsuits.
Most people here make about €1200/mo and there’s a severe housing crisis that I have contributed to with my presence. The influx of people like me with vastly higher purchasing power is creating resentment: the far-right party quadrupled (5% -> 20%) their seats in parliament by running against immigration.
Having said that, I do love it here. I’ve been considering blogging about my experience since there’s a dearth of clear-eyed information from real people who moved to Portugal and aren’t selling something.
Anyhow, I’m happy to share more info and resources with anyone who wants to learn more. Please feel free to reach out - my contact info is in my profile.
It’s not all smooth sailing, though. The immigration agency here (AIMA) currently has 300,000 cases in the queue. It’s so difficult to get an appointment that people are making hundreds of calls per day, standing in queues for hours only to not be seen, and filing lawsuits.
Most people here make about €1200/mo and there’s a severe housing crisis that I have contributed to with my presence. The influx of people like me with vastly higher purchasing power is creating resentment: the far-right party quadrupled (5% -> 20%) their seats in parliament by running against immigration.
Having said that, I do love it here. I’ve been considering blogging about my experience since there’s a dearth of clear-eyed information from real people who moved to Portugal and aren’t selling something.
Anyhow, I’m happy to share more info and resources with anyone who wants to learn more. Please feel free to reach out - my contact info is in my profile.
Thanks for sharing your experience. And thanks for acknowledging your part in "the problem" -- truly, a lot of people in your position e.g. immigrate, and then try to pull the ladder up after them.
How's the healthcare?
I have Portuguese friends who relocated to the US (for the salary, rest assured they own homes there to go back to). They're saying there are waits and quality issues.
I have Portuguese friends who relocated to the US (for the salary, rest assured they own homes there to go back to). They're saying there are waits and quality issues.
I can’t speak to the public system. My visa requires me to carry private insurance, so I have only used the private system.
It’s a breath of fresh air. I’ve had to wait a week or two here and there for exams and tests, sure. My preferred hospital system has a great app where I can book doctor appointments (€15) and see results as soon as they’re available. The system knows what my copay is and I pay it on my way home. That’s the end of it; there are no inscrutable bills in the mail months later for hundreds or thousands.
Here’s an example: due to family history, my doctor recommended an MRI. When she saw my horrified face she told me not to worry. I booked it, got a text from my insurance company a few days later with the approval, and had the exam a week after that. The results were available in the app soon after, including the raw images (not that I have the training to interpret them).
My copay for the MRI was €50. I pay €80/mo for the best insurance available. I’ve never had a claim denial and have never interacted with my insurance company.
It’s a breath of fresh air. I’ve had to wait a week or two here and there for exams and tests, sure. My preferred hospital system has a great app where I can book doctor appointments (€15) and see results as soon as they’re available. The system knows what my copay is and I pay it on my way home. That’s the end of it; there are no inscrutable bills in the mail months later for hundreds or thousands.
Here’s an example: due to family history, my doctor recommended an MRI. When she saw my horrified face she told me not to worry. I booked it, got a text from my insurance company a few days later with the approval, and had the exam a week after that. The results were available in the app soon after, including the raw images (not that I have the training to interpret them).
My copay for the MRI was €50. I pay €80/mo for the best insurance available. I’ve never had a claim denial and have never interacted with my insurance company.
My friends have successfully relied on Medicaid during financial hardships + unemployment. At least in NYC, the Medicaid plans are quite decent.
Also, for those who require plans similar to the one previously provided, COBRA (18 months) is decent -- expensive but presumably less expensive than "equivalent" in the marketplace if we're talking about a good corporate plan.
Also, for those who require plans similar to the one previously provided, COBRA (18 months) is decent -- expensive but presumably less expensive than "equivalent" in the marketplace if we're talking about a good corporate plan.
18 months + 18 months in NY State for a total of 36
Just that COBRA costs quite a lot.
Just that COBRA costs quite a lot.
in CA if you make less income than the minimum (like $18.5k as a single person) you are put onto the free Medi-Cal plan. so thats nice. :)
The problem with the "try a lot of projects, see what works" is that you lose out on exponential growth every time a project fails.
A lot of people would be better off doing "intra-preneurship", meaning trying to innovate and strategize within their current company to make the job more fun, gain more autonomy, and advance their career prospects.
A lot of people would be better off doing "intra-preneurship", meaning trying to innovate and strategize within their current company to make the job more fun, gain more autonomy, and advance their career prospects.
this is literally impossible at most companies due to politics, incentive alignments, OKRs etc
You probably won’t launch an entire product line out of your own sheer will, but you can totally push for smaller scale work. Push for creating a tool to improve your team’s processes, or push for a few feature within an existing product. Focus less on the “entrepreneur” aspect and more on the “build fun and autonomy into your work” aspect. If you’re trusted and respected within your organization, you’ll probably be able to push through ever-larger projects (assuming they’re not net-negative). This probably isn’t a working strategy if you’re within your first year, but if you’re a respected senior engineer who wants to scratch an itch, you’ll probably have much more success.
Or, if you work at Google, push for a new chat app. It’ll probably be approved.
Or, if you work at Google, push for a new chat app. It’ll probably be approved.
I once heard a conversation between an engineering manager and a very senior leader at NVidia.
The manager was sharing how challenging it was for his team to debug a certain type of code that they were responsible for. Without missing a beat, this very senior leader replied: "What do we need in order to make it fun? What kind of tooling or other improvements would make it enjoyable and easy?".
I'm paraphrasing because I can't recall the exact words, but I was flabbergasted to hear how he framed the problem as a lack of "fun".
Interactions like that are why I left NVidia with enormous respect for their managers and not just the very bright individual contributors I had the privilege to meet.
I bet people who have been on the inside can guess who the very senior guy was. Absolute legend.
The manager was sharing how challenging it was for his team to debug a certain type of code that they were responsible for. Without missing a beat, this very senior leader replied: "What do we need in order to make it fun? What kind of tooling or other improvements would make it enjoyable and easy?".
I'm paraphrasing because I can't recall the exact words, but I was flabbergasted to hear how he framed the problem as a lack of "fun".
Interactions like that are why I left NVidia with enormous respect for their managers and not just the very bright individual contributors I had the privilege to meet.
I bet people who have been on the inside can guess who the very senior guy was. Absolute legend.
Most projects are fun when they're a greenfield and then become a slog by the end when they're in maintenance mode with layers of cruft. My goal on any new project is to keep the "fun" going for as long as possible.
After a decade or two of maintaining a complex, "grown" application it might be become fun again. You really know all the quirks, all important patterns and call chains. You know the pains of the customers/users and, if you have the time, might be able to do something about it.
Frankly, starting every other year on a completely new application/system does not sound so much fun to me, now that I am programming for more than four decades.
Frankly, starting every other year on a completely new application/system does not sound so much fun to me, now that I am programming for more than four decades.
> Interactions like that are why I left NVidia with enormous respect for their managers ...
Um, you're being sarcastic yeah? (just checking) ;)
Um, you're being sarcastic yeah? (just checking) ;)
I left NVidia because I retired, not because I was unhappy with the managers or my coworkers. They were exceptionally good.
You do realize there are all sorts of reasons why people leave a job, right? I left Qualcomm perfectly satisfied with my managers and coworkers, too.
If somebody always leaves because of being unhappy with their coworkers, they may want to do some introspection to find out what those disagreements have in common.
You do realize there are all sorts of reasons why people leave a job, right? I left Qualcomm perfectly satisfied with my managers and coworkers, too.
If somebody always leaves because of being unhappy with their coworkers, they may want to do some introspection to find out what those disagreements have in common.
> I left NVidia because I retired, not because I was unhappy with the managers or my coworkers. They were exceptionally good.
No worries at all. Asked because the comment about the manager asking how to make it "fun" could also have been read along the lines of "see how out of touch the managers are", and I wasn't sure which meaning you were going for. :)
No worries at all. Asked because the comment about the manager asking how to make it "fun" could also have been read along the lines of "see how out of touch the managers are", and I wasn't sure which meaning you were going for. :)
You could copy the GP post and paste it under this comment again. Let me explain: You don't get any time to work on things besides what is in the sprint. Period. Is it dystopian? Yes. Is it the way many shitty companies work? Absolutely. Be happy, if you are not in such a place.
I’m sorry this is your workplace, or the workplace of so many people. Sometimes things just suck and there is nothing you can do. I recognize it’s also cultural, in America, especially Silicon Valley, there is a less formal division of authority and weaker hierarchy between workers and management, so these conversations are easier.
But there are also many workplaces that are more human, and run by people who you can build a psychological trust and rapport with. In those cases, there are opportunities to propose improvements, or push for pauses in feature work for support work. It’s not every day, and you can’t always change everywhere, but often management is receptive if you can sell it. This is how you start to build greater autonomy and a bit of fun into the workplace.
It takes a certain level of trust, but starting with tasks that vaguely fit the below tend to work well - start with something focused clearly on the business, not your own person feature ideas.
“Debugging/deploying/verbing situation X takes 0.5 man-sprints every sprint (across the team). If we can spend 2 sprints with 2 engineers to do X, we can cut this down to 0… during [time of year, eh holidays], our feature work slows down because people often take vacation. Can person and I work on this?”
But there are also many workplaces that are more human, and run by people who you can build a psychological trust and rapport with. In those cases, there are opportunities to propose improvements, or push for pauses in feature work for support work. It’s not every day, and you can’t always change everywhere, but often management is receptive if you can sell it. This is how you start to build greater autonomy and a bit of fun into the workplace.
It takes a certain level of trust, but starting with tasks that vaguely fit the below tend to work well - start with something focused clearly on the business, not your own person feature ideas.
“Debugging/deploying/verbing situation X takes 0.5 man-sprints every sprint (across the team). If we can spend 2 sprints with 2 engineers to do X, we can cut this down to 0… during [time of year, eh holidays], our feature work slows down because people often take vacation. Can person and I work on this?”
Threadripper was an entire product line launched from below at AMD, famously.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/antonyleather/2017/09/05/amd-ry...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/antonyleather/2017/09/05/amd-ry...
>push for a new AI chat app
ftfy
ftfy
I've started something new at every company I've worked for, except the startup, which was already a new thing.
My current employer, Google, seems particularly amenable to internal entrepreneurship. After all, they're essentially paying you not to create new external businesses.
My current employer, Google, seems particularly amenable to internal entrepreneurship. After all, they're essentially paying you not to create new external businesses.
Right, most companies just want you cranking out the code their marketing department has determined as necessary, they don’t care if you grow, prosper, are happy, or any of those things.
Innovating is all of those, and many managers will be open to cool new ideas and let you try stuff out if there's real promise. You might need to only spend a fraction of your time on it, or do it after hours. The problem is that many developers have bad ideas, or they can't market those ideas effectively. Remember that they will be able to claim a part of any success you find.
Im not sure why there is even a single downvote, the comment is absolutely right on the money.
That's how it goes at mine. I regularly whine about the amount of waste in there.. insane. I was more productive, creative and happier when jobless. In group you have to navigate all the hurdles, egos, fears around .. Makes me wonder how Xerox PARC managed to exist all (beyond the fact that they had a lot of money of course)
At the end of the day, it's a bet. You'll probably make zero (or negative after expenses). You may make some passable income. You might make a lot.
Whereas working for a big company, you have a fairly reliable shot at bringing in a decent income with some stability.
Nothing is guaranteed of course.
Whereas working for a big company, you have a fairly reliable shot at bringing in a decent income with some stability.
Nothing is guaranteed of course.
I’ve had extreme control over my role over the past decade (leadership in startups) and I couldn’t even do what you suggest. I’m not sure how you think the average person could
Exponential growth means getting the timing, positioning and right amount of execution just right.
Also feels like chasing a lottery win. Some folks might be chasing a financial safety net first that is smaller, because the variables and formula of everyone's life in what they have to take care of is valid.
I'm very happy for people who are able to swing for the fences, and also happy for the people working on getting more hits to bigger hits to swing for the fench. I know the latter is a much more sure way to get an outcome to have time freedom to really swing fences.
Everyone does what they best can do, if there's not an option in front of them at work, some people have to try to create the option themselves if it's not geographically accessible.
Also feels like chasing a lottery win. Some folks might be chasing a financial safety net first that is smaller, because the variables and formula of everyone's life in what they have to take care of is valid.
I'm very happy for people who are able to swing for the fences, and also happy for the people working on getting more hits to bigger hits to swing for the fench. I know the latter is a much more sure way to get an outcome to have time freedom to really swing fences.
Everyone does what they best can do, if there's not an option in front of them at work, some people have to try to create the option themselves if it's not geographically accessible.
>meaning trying to innovate and strategize within their current company to make the job more fun, gain more autonomy, and advance their career prospects
Assuming that's in an environment where it's possible (no shitty office politics, etc), the monetary returns from that ain't gonna be competing to a succesful project. Nor is the freedom and satisfaction ever going to be the same. And of course all progress in that front, is a round of layoffs or a change in management away from being nulled.
So, it's a safer path (as much as being an employee is safe these days), but not achieving the same thing.
Assuming that's in an environment where it's possible (no shitty office politics, etc), the monetary returns from that ain't gonna be competing to a succesful project. Nor is the freedom and satisfaction ever going to be the same. And of course all progress in that front, is a round of layoffs or a change in management away from being nulled.
So, it's a safer path (as much as being an employee is safe these days), but not achieving the same thing.
I’m sorry, but what exponential growth are you talking about? No company will ever pay you that much as a regular salaried employee.
Career growth. This includes job title, responsibilities, and compensation.
Companies can promote you every 1-2 years, but you need to start that clock.
Companies can promote you every 1-2 years, but you need to start that clock.
That's not exponential growth. It's not even linear-with-good-slope.
And it's not even "give 1x work -same as before- and take x1.5 money" but more like "give 1.5x work and take x1.5 money" at best (and usually less): more responsibilities, more stress, and more work time.
And it's not even "give 1x work -same as before- and take x1.5 money" but more like "give 1.5x work and take x1.5 money" at best (and usually less): more responsibilities, more stress, and more work time.
> "give 1x work -same as before- and take x1.5 money"
This is exactly my case.
Here are my w2 compensation (salary+bonus+rsu) changes YoY working at $Yelp and $Grab:
2025 35.96% (projected)
2024 20.77% (projected)
2023 30.39%
2022 -0.65% <- promotion
2021 34.25%
2020 65.06% <- job change (December 2020; 2020 had a big jump due to unemployment in 2019)
I don't think my work hours, responsibilities, or work stress has any connection to my compensation or career growth, primarily due to the "work smart, not hard" thinking.
Even if you have zero promotions or changes in responsibility, RSU grants compound, even if your salary increase by only 1-6% (like mine did)
This is exactly my case.
Here are my w2 compensation (salary+bonus+rsu) changes YoY working at $Yelp and $Grab:
2025 35.96% (projected)
2024 20.77% (projected)
2023 30.39%
2022 -0.65% <- promotion
2021 34.25%
2020 65.06% <- job change (December 2020; 2020 had a big jump due to unemployment in 2019)
I don't think my work hours, responsibilities, or work stress has any connection to my compensation or career growth, primarily due to the "work smart, not hard" thinking.
Even if you have zero promotions or changes in responsibility, RSU grants compound, even if your salary increase by only 1-6% (like mine did)
I don't know how old you are but you are likely to hit a compensation ceiling as an individual contributor at some point.
Or you manage to move into those staff/post-staff positions but those are very few, hyper competitive and during rounds a layoffs you have a huge target on your back.
Or you manage to move into those staff/post-staff positions but those are very few, hyper competitive and during rounds a layoffs you have a huge target on your back.
> I don't know how old you are but you are likely to hit a compensation ceiling as an individual contributor at some point.
Realistically it's not a bad problem to have.
I'm no where near making a capped IC amount but if someone were in this position you really only need ~5-8 years of working to pretty much set yourself up for life financially if you keep your living expenses reasonable.
Realistically it's not a bad problem to have.
I'm no where near making a capped IC amount but if someone were in this position you really only need ~5-8 years of working to pretty much set yourself up for life financially if you keep your living expenses reasonable.
I’m 35. I survived 80% layoffs because I’m one of the lowest paid people in my grade and office.
Im still earning way less than what I see reported on Blind and what my coworkers make.
Im still earning way less than what I see reported on Blind and what my coworkers make.
For me, there was like a 3 year window of "exponential" growth. Everything beyond that has been fractional improvements.
It’s not exponential though, at most you’re looking at 2-3 orders of magnitude growth unless you’re a founder.
Not sure you understand what orders of magnitude means.
3 orders of magnitude is 1,000 times larger, so $100,000 salary would become $100,000,000.
Never going to happen.
3 orders of magnitude is 1,000 times larger, so $100,000 salary would become $100,000,000.
Never going to happen.
I perfectly understand what orders of magnitude means. The growth you’ve described does happen, eg if you start at $65000 as junior eng and end up in dozens of millions a year as a SVP or CTO at FAANG-level company. My point is that even that is not exponential yearly, unless you mean “exponential” in the narrow sense of “compound returns”, by that is available to everyone with a brokerage account.
“Compound returns” are exponential returns. Is there another definition of exponential that im not away of?
I think you’re the one that has an abnormal definition exponential growth
My RSUs and total compensation has grown by 20-30% the last 3 years, despite my base salary only increasing 1-2%.
If that isn't exponential growth, idk what is.
RSU values compound.
If that isn't exponential growth, idk what is.
RSU values compound.
Refreshers aren’t priced at the price of the date of hire, that would be crazy. It’s not more exponential than holding S&P 500.
Refreshers are priced at when they were granted and compound 4 years. So you have 4 years of compounding growth. Refreshers also stack, creating more compounding.
Once they vest, you can sell them to match snp500 past the 4 years.
Once they vest, you can sell them to match snp500 past the 4 years.
Fair, but the exponential growth function can be much more aggressive for a side project than your career. In a career, you max raises at 20% per year over a 5 year period? But side projects can have revenue increase 20% MRR.
Also, within companies, you need everyone’s unanimous permission to do anything.. if a problem is big enough, the team would do it themselves. If the problem is too small, the team won’t integrate.
Also, within companies, you need everyone’s unanimous permission to do anything.. if a problem is big enough, the team would do it themselves. If the problem is too small, the team won’t integrate.
Over the last 4 years, I've gone through a similar "speed run" of startups after quitting my job of 10 years during COVID.
First startup went nowhere and took on a contract role after 9 months. Then tried another startup with a co-founder I met at one of the startups where I worked in the interim. About 6 months building something awesome, but no commercial path. Spent 1 month with him and another co-founder on a fintech product but realized much faster that once again that there was no viable go-to-market strategy. Started another company and built a product that seemed like it had legs. We had one early user that absolutely loved the product and we thought all we needed was to find more users like her. Turns out that she was a false signal because we never found another user like her and I'm about to shut that one down after almost a year to avoid DE franchise fee next year.
If anyone is in a situation like this/thinking about doing something like this, I've gathered some of my lessons learned: https://chrlschn.dev/blog/2024/12/lessons-learned-from-worki...
If I had to sum it up: always build the minimal thing that can be "sold". Use AI to build the dirtiest MVP as fast as possible. Even better if your "MVP" is a deck and you can get people to put money down to wait. Figure out your GTM and messaging with that deck. If you are an engineer, you must resist that urge to build until you're sure you can find enough people that have this problem and want to pay you to solve it. Don't work with a non-technical co-founder if they claim if you build it, customers will come. Don't work with a non-technical co-founder that can't demonstrate an ability to sell. If the vibes feel off, get out fast. Don't form a company with a co-founder until you absolutely have to (like your personal life, don't get married until you're absolutely sure).
Lots of mistakes and lessons learned during that time having founded startups that went nowhere, been an employee in startups that went nowhere, and left startups that are actually crushing it. I have seen a big swath of the gamut at this point with some regrets in retrospect.
First startup went nowhere and took on a contract role after 9 months. Then tried another startup with a co-founder I met at one of the startups where I worked in the interim. About 6 months building something awesome, but no commercial path. Spent 1 month with him and another co-founder on a fintech product but realized much faster that once again that there was no viable go-to-market strategy. Started another company and built a product that seemed like it had legs. We had one early user that absolutely loved the product and we thought all we needed was to find more users like her. Turns out that she was a false signal because we never found another user like her and I'm about to shut that one down after almost a year to avoid DE franchise fee next year.
If anyone is in a situation like this/thinking about doing something like this, I've gathered some of my lessons learned: https://chrlschn.dev/blog/2024/12/lessons-learned-from-worki...
If I had to sum it up: always build the minimal thing that can be "sold". Use AI to build the dirtiest MVP as fast as possible. Even better if your "MVP" is a deck and you can get people to put money down to wait. Figure out your GTM and messaging with that deck. If you are an engineer, you must resist that urge to build until you're sure you can find enough people that have this problem and want to pay you to solve it. Don't work with a non-technical co-founder if they claim if you build it, customers will come. Don't work with a non-technical co-founder that can't demonstrate an ability to sell. If the vibes feel off, get out fast. Don't form a company with a co-founder until you absolutely have to (like your personal life, don't get married until you're absolutely sure).
Lots of mistakes and lessons learned during that time having founded startups that went nowhere, been an employee in startups that went nowhere, and left startups that are actually crushing it. I have seen a big swath of the gamut at this point with some regrets in retrospect.
Given the dense amount of wisdom packed into this comment I checked out your profile. Both your current projects look extremely impressive and polished. And viable! Keep up the good work! It’s inspiring to see that in light of the obvious difficult lessons you’ve had to learn along the way.
Having learned many of the same lessons as you I can 100% backup everything you said in your “sum it up” paragraph!
The only caveat I would add is to the “make an MVP with AI”. I think MVPs generated directly out of ChatGPT/Claude are so easy now (or at least it can appear so on the face of it) that many people are just barely going beyond that - but to any experienced eye, that approach is quite transparent and can look very low-value (even if the idea is actually a good one).
Now if that person is a skilled salesperson then that might work.
But, for most people, I think it’s still very important to demonstrate good instincts, taste and strategic/commercial understanding when building such an MVP. And that means editing and shaping the output just enough to meet your vision for the product. So to agree with you - definitely, 100%, use AI as much as possible - but don’t assume that you can put zero work in on top and have that MVP be effective. Because the 10 year old down the street has the exact same tool as you - so if you are just relying verbatim on that tool’s output- it’s going to be hard to stand out.
I’d still definitely agree to spend as little time as physically possible on the MVP - with the above caveat.
Having said all that… a lot of historical wisdom on the topic of MVPs has been turned upside down since gen AI became mainstream, so on the flip side you could argue: create 1000 MVPs in an hour, publish them all, see what generates interest…*
Hmm.. I think I just argued against my own point.
* (I’m not really seriously suggesting anyone do this, but I’m also not entirely discounting this as an approach either…)
Having learned many of the same lessons as you I can 100% backup everything you said in your “sum it up” paragraph!
The only caveat I would add is to the “make an MVP with AI”. I think MVPs generated directly out of ChatGPT/Claude are so easy now (or at least it can appear so on the face of it) that many people are just barely going beyond that - but to any experienced eye, that approach is quite transparent and can look very low-value (even if the idea is actually a good one).
Now if that person is a skilled salesperson then that might work.
But, for most people, I think it’s still very important to demonstrate good instincts, taste and strategic/commercial understanding when building such an MVP. And that means editing and shaping the output just enough to meet your vision for the product. So to agree with you - definitely, 100%, use AI as much as possible - but don’t assume that you can put zero work in on top and have that MVP be effective. Because the 10 year old down the street has the exact same tool as you - so if you are just relying verbatim on that tool’s output- it’s going to be hard to stand out.
I’d still definitely agree to spend as little time as physically possible on the MVP - with the above caveat.
Having said all that… a lot of historical wisdom on the topic of MVPs has been turned upside down since gen AI became mainstream, so on the flip side you could argue: create 1000 MVPs in an hour, publish them all, see what generates interest…*
Hmm.. I think I just argued against my own point.
* (I’m not really seriously suggesting anyone do this, but I’m also not entirely discounting this as an approach either…)
> Both your current projects look extremely impressive and polished. And viable!
> Now if that person is a skilled salesperson then that might work
I had a non-technical friend recently spin up a full blown startup with customers using nothing but Claude + Replit (not plugging, but just sharing to show that it's real: https://bullship.co). He came up with the idea after talking to a friend and finding that indeed, the market had only two major competitors who both charged too much for many smaller customers.
The code is throwaway in my book, but it's enough to validate the idea by actually getting people to pay for something they can use. It won't scale, but that's fine; by the point that he needs it to scale, he'll be able to hire people with more skill to fix or rebuild it.
https://turas.app video is confusing, what I got is I have to do the planning myself using your app. Why would I do that instead I can get Chatgpt do the planning for me with some keywords on what I like/want.
You also have 20 different icons, that is so confusing for the user, get rid of most of them and just keep maybe 3 or 4.
You also have 20 different icons, that is so confusing for the user, get rid of most of them and just keep maybe 3 or 4.
Thanks for the feedback!
It's not an itinerary generator; it's a replacement for people who use spreadsheets to plan meticulously. Definitely not for everyone!
It's not an itinerary generator; it's a replacement for people who use spreadsheets to plan meticulously. Definitely not for everyone!
This.
Build only after customers have thrown money at you.
As it’s at that point you have enough clarity and specificity to build.
Build only after customers have thrown money at you.
As it’s at that point you have enough clarity and specificity to build.
>Build only after customers have thrown money at you.
This advice is better if you have 10k twitter followers. For example I'm building something cool, a no-code visual regression tool. I don't have any real network. Besides cold outreach (and hn, ph), what else is there? Would love to know what you recommend.
This advice is better if you have 10k twitter followers. For example I'm building something cool, a no-code visual regression tool. I don't have any real network. Besides cold outreach (and hn, ph), what else is there? Would love to know what you recommend.
Unfortunately, if you genuinely want to build something cool, the correct path is build it as open source project while having a job.
If you want to make money (at least break even the opportunity cost of a programmer), you need to work backwards: build things that you will be comfortable to pitch to your connections. Selling home-made chilli sauce to friends&relatives is unironically a better business model than building an app for most people.
If you want to make money (at least break even the opportunity cost of a programmer), you need to work backwards: build things that you will be comfortable to pitch to your connections. Selling home-made chilli sauce to friends&relatives is unironically a better business model than building an app for most people.
Yup.
Stuff I build for fun, I generally just open source. If there is an audience, you can always build a commercial model later.
Stuff I build for fun, I generally just open source. If there is an audience, you can always build a commercial model later.
Thanks, that makes sense. I did reach out to my limited network and the reception has been good.
> For example I'm building something cool, a no-code visual regression tool.
Basically understand how your solution fits into that market and how you'll differentiate and make money.
These come up every few weeks on HN. Something something Playwright, something GPT something.
I fully agree that you should try to sell the thing first, because a good chunk of the people who might want such a tool could already have the savvy required to bolt together the relevant open source and off the shelf building blocks.
I fully agree that you should try to sell the thing first, because a good chunk of the people who might want such a tool could already have the savvy required to bolt together the relevant open source and off the shelf building blocks.
Even before getting any sort of demo/landing page up?
Yes. The more excited someone else is about an idea, the stronger the signal. The more you have to show them the idea, the weaker the signal (with exceptions at the edges)
That's fair but I need a job so this demo is a perfect way to showcase all of my skills and to add something recent to my portfolio. Maybe if I have like a year of runway and no money stress I can try the pre-sell thing.
Do it for your portfolio; keep it open source. Use a license that's conducive to OSS and possibly a paid version in the future or dual license later.
Just be realistic with your expectations and don't quit your job until you know that there are customers willing to pay.
Just be realistic with your expectations and don't quit your job until you know that there are customers willing to pay.
I haven't worked in over a year and I'm in dire straights. I'll do the OSS version later.
hey
some time ago i skimmed around notion of Wardley maps and bookmarked it but did not pay (enough) attention. The other day there was another post on the topic, now with some basic resources, and i got hooked.. and read half of that book [0]. But right now have nothing on my mind to play with. May be that is a way? Map-and-try-predict the battlefield (needs lots of reconnaissance and "feeling" of the "landscape" and what-else-is-there). Mail me if you want a sparing partner - i want to learn this technique. But Anyway, have fun.
[0] https://feststelltaste.github.io/wardley-maps-book/#_the_fir...
(IMO, read chapter 2+ then 3~4 first, then restart from beginning)
some time ago i skimmed around notion of Wardley maps and bookmarked it but did not pay (enough) attention. The other day there was another post on the topic, now with some basic resources, and i got hooked.. and read half of that book [0]. But right now have nothing on my mind to play with. May be that is a way? Map-and-try-predict the battlefield (needs lots of reconnaissance and "feeling" of the "landscape" and what-else-is-there). Mail me if you want a sparing partner - i want to learn this technique. But Anyway, have fun.
[0] https://feststelltaste.github.io/wardley-maps-book/#_the_fir...
(IMO, read chapter 2+ then 3~4 first, then restart from beginning)
Hey I'll definitely reach out. The first 5 times I read your comment I had no idea what you were talking about then did some reading. Very cool.
Who do you expect to buy it?
How many face-to-face conversation with them about why they’d use this tool?
Customer don’t exist in hn, ph, twitter, they exist in their own offices, on Zoom, and your local coffee shops.
Customer don’t exist in hn, ph, twitter, they exist in their own offices, on Zoom, and your local coffee shops.
I expect managers of small/mid size product teams to buy it instead of pinging me and my friends at the end of the day/start of the day/throughout the day. This makes it so my managers don't have to ping me all day, helps devs monitor UI breakages, and helps stakeholders get easy made reports on changes they requested. It's quite useful.
I've had 10ish face to face conversations with people, people who've sold significant companies / engineering managers at FAANG's.
My competitors all require code, mine doesn't.
I threw up a sign up page on https://shutr.app if you're interested. Maybe it goes somewhere, maybe it goes nowhere. But I believe in it, and it's useful for me.
I've had 10ish face to face conversations with people, people who've sold significant companies / engineering managers at FAANG's.
My competitors all require code, mine doesn't.
I threw up a sign up page on https://shutr.app if you're interested. Maybe it goes somewhere, maybe it goes nowhere. But I believe in it, and it's useful for me.
Quick reminder that FAANG is not small/mid.
My guess is, you’re selling to the individual devs at the smaller places. Talk to them and their managers. If they want to buy, they’ll buy with what you have already.
My guess is, you’re selling to the individual devs at the smaller places. Talk to them and their managers. If they want to buy, they’ll buy with what you have already.
Right, true. Thanks.
> like your personal life, don't get married until you're absolutely sure
I misread “personal wife” (in Kripky’s voice from big bang theory) and after I was done chuckling, I started thinking of something funny to comment about the other types of wives there are… then reread your comment and… yeah.
I misread “personal wife” (in Kripky’s voice from big bang theory) and after I was done chuckling, I started thinking of something funny to comment about the other types of wives there are… then reread your comment and… yeah.
Haha, well, I'm going through a "divorce" now with a co-founder and unfortunately, it costs money, time, and effort to try to get my assets (code) back. He was never able to generate a dime of revenue after I brought the code, but now he wants the code (which I want to open source).
So yeah, in many ways, it is just like a marriage when you formally create a company with a co-founder. Don't do it unless you need to and if you do, make sure that you can get your assets back if you are bringing existing assets to the table.
So yeah, in many ways, it is just like a marriage when you formally create a company with a co-founder. Don't do it unless you need to and if you do, make sure that you can get your assets back if you are bringing existing assets to the table.
Thank you for sharing this.
Good luck if you're thinking about going for it! Learn from my mistakes.
Good lessons!
It’s been almost two years since I was layed off. Unlike him though, I have not been working on side projects. This time has actually made me realize that I do not enjoy software, even working on projects for myself and as a hobby.
I’ve slowly spent all my savings, moved back in with my folks, and still don’t have a job. It’s rough. I have no idea what I wanna do in life. So I decided to join the navy recently, to give me the next 4 years to figure it out.
I’ve slowly spent all my savings, moved back in with my folks, and still don’t have a job. It’s rough. I have no idea what I wanna do in life. So I decided to join the navy recently, to give me the next 4 years to figure it out.
You are on hn so let me ask you this: Are/were you a nerd? Did you play around with systems, use linux for fun etc.?
If yes, you just might be depressed or haven't realized that a job might be shit anyway.
If no, interesting though that you are aware of hn (i have to assume a certain interest because i know plenty of software people avg ones, not being aware of hn at all).
But hf at the navy.
If yes, you just might be depressed or haven't realized that a job might be shit anyway.
If no, interesting though that you are aware of hn (i have to assume a certain interest because i know plenty of software people avg ones, not being aware of hn at all).
But hf at the navy.
That's not really the qualifier you think it is. I've been coding and hacking stuff up since I was nine. Corporate programming is a great perversion of the kind of stuff I find fun to do in my spare time. In order to be successful you not only need to be a good programmer and curious person but you also need to know how to navigate corporate power structures (explicit and implicit), you need to be somewhat of a therapist helping people tap into their true problems, and above all else you need to be excellent at compartmentalization.
similar boat. Been doing software for 15 years and I used to love it. Learning new languages, side projects, contributing to open source, you name it. At every job I became less enthusiastic, like the technical problems all became the same. The actual problems became ones of people, management, customer, product, etc., and I had no interest in solving those. So this year I decided to not code... and I don't miss it at all. However I have no idea what I will work on next.
I was in the army before uni - it was grueling but awesome. You'll find your way fren
I was in the army before uni - it was grueling but awesome. You'll find your way fren
Problem is lack of money catches up eventually. If you can't figure out some way to get it, and the longer without a job, the harder it is to get one. I think a lot of people struggled because the economy and job numbers. Supply and demand..
I had contract work, then couldn't get a tech job a couple years ago after a lot of applications. Completely broke. Drove down the road and felt kinda foolish seeing people paying less but decent money for non-tech. got fast food / hospitality worker. Low stress, physical work. Can't imagine where I'd be if I didn't.
I kind of get it though, you start doing something else then you don't have much time and energy to improve on what you want to do (such as tech) for a while, a recipe for people to get trapped, unless you can save money and reclaim time somehow to improve, or the supply/demand shifts..
anyone could fail at anything, all I know for certain is the worst thing a person can do is nothing.
I had contract work, then couldn't get a tech job a couple years ago after a lot of applications. Completely broke. Drove down the road and felt kinda foolish seeing people paying less but decent money for non-tech. got fast food / hospitality worker. Low stress, physical work. Can't imagine where I'd be if I didn't.
I kind of get it though, you start doing something else then you don't have much time and energy to improve on what you want to do (such as tech) for a while, a recipe for people to get trapped, unless you can save money and reclaim time somehow to improve, or the supply/demand shifts..
anyone could fail at anything, all I know for certain is the worst thing a person can do is nothing.
One solution, if you can, is to take part-time work. Then you can reduce your expenses to that level, take time off for living, without having to spend down your savings (or only very very slowly). Then it's sustainable.
Ooh. Lesson: if you are out of work go bare bones. You don't need a entrepenerial flat in the city. You need a shitty room in the suburbs where you can commute to the city by train or bus ideally (dont have a car). Call it runway and it sounds better. If you spent 20k/y then the 60k becones 75k in the market and you are doing better.
Yes, I'm not sure how helpful it is in TFA to compare living costs against average living costs in the area and then call it a win if you're anywhere below.
If I was unemployed my living costs would be far, far below average, even allowing for the "it's expensive being poor" factors. Even when I've been in low pay jobs I've lived on very little and definitely didn't feel like I had budget for "travel" or other non-essentials.
As an employable person without work, before I reached negative bank balance I'm pretty certain I would have found a crappy job to at least slow the decline and buy more time. I can't see from this story why that hasn't been deemed necessary here.
If I was unemployed my living costs would be far, far below average, even allowing for the "it's expensive being poor" factors. Even when I've been in low pay jobs I've lived on very little and definitely didn't feel like I had budget for "travel" or other non-essentials.
As an employable person without work, before I reached negative bank balance I'm pretty certain I would have found a crappy job to at least slow the decline and buy more time. I can't see from this story why that hasn't been deemed necessary here.
I was thinking the same thing.
The average person has a job and income. What's the average for a person taking extended time off?
The average person has a job and income. What's the average for a person taking extended time off?
The median would be zero or close.
December 2022 was not a great time to quit a tech job. I too have been unemployed during the same period (except for a 3 month part-time gig last summer) after the startup I was working for lost it's funding in December '22. Fortunately, I've got a paid-off house and a good amount of savings (plus I'm old enough to start withdrawing from my retirement accounts and since our income is pretty low the ACA subsidies are working out great for being able to afford health insurance. At this point I consider myself semi-retired as I'm not interested in playing the tech interviewing game anymore, but if someone comes to me and wants me to work on an interesting project then I'll give it serious consideration (as was the case last summer).
OP, idk if you'll see this, but the part about GI issues after being on Accutane concerned me a bit. There's some evidence that Accutane can cause short-term symptoms that mimic autoimmune disorders and long-term symptoms that are bona fide autoimmune disorders. If you only feel "normal" while sticking to a restrictive diet, especially in the absence of confirmed celiac disease (which would otherwise explain issues with gluten), you might be suffering from a more serious problem without realizing it.
Signed, someone who only feels "normal" while sticking to a restrictive diet... and therefore is seeing their gastro next week to discuss switching to a different Crohn's treatment :P
Signed, someone who only feels "normal" while sticking to a restrictive diet... and therefore is seeing their gastro next week to discuss switching to a different Crohn's treatment :P
A similar but underreported possibility here is gastric ulcers which correlate extremely well with cortisol/stress.
You can attempt to fix it by taking NAC which is an amino acid with no side effects for $20 a month or so. Usually you don’t need to take it continuously, just in regressions.
It is frequently misdiagnosed as the other more serious/intractable things you’ve mentioned.
You can attempt to fix it by taking NAC which is an amino acid with no side effects for $20 a month or so. Usually you don’t need to take it continuously, just in regressions.
It is frequently misdiagnosed as the other more serious/intractable things you’ve mentioned.
Oh yeah, I forgot about ulcers. Non-ulcerative gastritis is on the table too, which can mimic some of the same symptoms and is absolutely triggered by stress. And both ulcers and gastritis can be a smaller part of a bigger serious issue!
Which is all to say... there are so many ways your gut can make you miserable, and they rarely get better on their own. Absolutely worth checking out if you can.
Which is all to say... there are so many ways your gut can make you miserable, and they rarely get better on their own. Absolutely worth checking out if you can.
Isotretinoin is poison, here's my article about it: https://www.kaiwenwang.me/writing/effects-and-detoxification...
In some parts of the internet, Vitamin A is theorized to not be a vitamin but a poison.
Auto-immunity is likely related to biofilms in the intestines and plant defense chemicals such as lectins in combination with leaky gut.
Try looking @ cabbage juice for your Crohn's. There are YT videos about it.
In some parts of the internet, Vitamin A is theorized to not be a vitamin but a poison.
Auto-immunity is likely related to biofilms in the intestines and plant defense chemicals such as lectins in combination with leaky gut.
Try looking @ cabbage juice for your Crohn's. There are YT videos about it.
> In some parts of the internet
> leaky gut
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaky_gut_syndrome
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaky_gut_syndrome
The funny thing about the leaky gut truthers is that they aren't wrong about intestinal issues causing systemic inflammation... but they're still totally wrong about what those intestinal issues are and what the ensuing systemic inflammation looks like.
I guess "leaky gut causes autism" is more exciting than "Crohn's can give you eczema and uveitis" :P
I guess "leaky gut causes autism" is more exciting than "Crohn's can give you eczema and uveitis" :P
The stark transition from employment to unemployment can be very painful in our industry, because it is a boom-bust industry, and it's not uncommon to go from making half a million dollars a year to having the most expensive cities in the world vacuuming money out of your bank account as fast as economically possible. When the money is coming in you feel like a rockstar-ninja-hacker genius. When the money dries up you start to wonder why you didn't just go into accounting.
> it is a boom-bust industry,
It's surprising this is not more widely recognized. The majority of corporations need help configuring existing software, not developing and marketing novel software. Those new opportunities come and go. If you want stability, get a job in IT.
It's surprising this is not more widely recognized. The majority of corporations need help configuring existing software, not developing and marketing novel software. Those new opportunities come and go. If you want stability, get a job in IT.
Recency bias, amplified by the age bias in tech. There are a whole bunch of people in this industry who just weren't around before the post-2008-great-financial-crisis-zero-interest-rate-money-firehouse financed an unusually long bull market and sent pay packages through the stratosphere.
I've been trying to reconcile a few observations that appear contradictory:
1. Inflation was significant. 150-250k is just the cost of a white collar with experience. 2. The skills required to be a top software engineer have increased. The field is much more competitive and has some extremely productive people at the top. 3. A significant number of my peers in software seem to think they can earn very high salaries forever, while working mostly remote, never touching weekends, never studying. That cannot continue forever. 4. Most engineers do not have any risk tolerance, and are not navigating the "7 years of plenty" for the "7 years of famine".
So what happens? Maybe inflation lowers everyone's standard of living, but they keep jobs, and nothing dramatic happens. Maybe there are big layoffs and rude awakening? Maybe it's the bottom 50% of quality that gets hit hard, and everyone else is fine?
1. Inflation was significant. 150-250k is just the cost of a white collar with experience. 2. The skills required to be a top software engineer have increased. The field is much more competitive and has some extremely productive people at the top. 3. A significant number of my peers in software seem to think they can earn very high salaries forever, while working mostly remote, never touching weekends, never studying. That cannot continue forever. 4. Most engineers do not have any risk tolerance, and are not navigating the "7 years of plenty" for the "7 years of famine".
So what happens? Maybe inflation lowers everyone's standard of living, but they keep jobs, and nothing dramatic happens. Maybe there are big layoffs and rude awakening? Maybe it's the bottom 50% of quality that gets hit hard, and everyone else is fine?
If you make half a million dollars a year, it's really easy to save lots of it.
I didn't make that much (but also don't live in the US). For some time I was living on about 5% of my income and saving the remaining 95%.
I didn't make that much (but also don't live in the US). For some time I was living on about 5% of my income and saving the remaining 95%.
> but also don't live in the US
There is your answer. The cities where you can make 400-500k are at least 2x the cost of other US cities.
There is your answer. The cities where you can make 400-500k are at least 2x the cost of other US cities.
I was not asking a question.
Half a million dollars a year is a lot of money even in the expensive cities.
If you make that much and don't save a significant part of it, you're rather lacking in foresight. Go talk to the people earning five times less who live in the same city!
Half a million dollars a year is a lot of money even in the expensive cities.
If you make that much and don't save a significant part of it, you're rather lacking in foresight. Go talk to the people earning five times less who live in the same city!
> Half a million dollars a year is a lot of money even in the expensive cities.
Absolutely. But depending on your perspective it may seem like an unfathomable amount of money where you start to drive lambos and have a private chef. It's not.
> If you make that much and don't save a significant part of it, you're rather lacking in foresight.
Agreed. I expect them to max their tax advantaged accounts, have significant equity in their house > 1.2 M house. Maybe have a rental property.
> Go talk to the people earning five times less who live in the same city
100k in SF or Manhattan? Sure that exists. But in some ways nothing lower than that exists. Anything lower is likely:
- an immigrant living a similar life style as their home country, which would not be accepted by the native population. (Many tenants in one apartment, possibly not legal housing, etc).
- workers who commute from a neighboring city.
- Students who are poor on paper, but have a financial safety net through parents.
Absolutely. But depending on your perspective it may seem like an unfathomable amount of money where you start to drive lambos and have a private chef. It's not.
> If you make that much and don't save a significant part of it, you're rather lacking in foresight.
Agreed. I expect them to max their tax advantaged accounts, have significant equity in their house > 1.2 M house. Maybe have a rental property.
> Go talk to the people earning five times less who live in the same city
100k in SF or Manhattan? Sure that exists. But in some ways nothing lower than that exists. Anything lower is likely:
- an immigrant living a similar life style as their home country, which would not be accepted by the native population. (Many tenants in one apartment, possibly not legal housing, etc).
- workers who commute from a neighboring city.
- Students who are poor on paper, but have a financial safety net through parents.
I have not been out of work since 2002 but same time... I earned nothing close to 500k or even 250k.
I think this is very much US centric. The upside is much higher salaries. Clearly people need to plan for when it ends though. The industry is more stable in Europe and Australia. You don't get paid as much though.
I was unemployed for a year at a point and honestly it was the best year of my life in a long time. Yes I went through about $50K but I was able to pursue hobbies, play sports, weightlift, hike, travel, write, play music, spend a lot of time with my wife and daughter and I built an entire second home on my property (all by myself)! That’s honestly how life is meant to be lived but it’s too bad we’re not at UBI levels in society yet.
I appreciate that you used that time to build that second home.
Any estimate on the value creation from building that home vs the $50k consumed?
Any estimate on the value creation from building that home vs the $50k consumed?
It’s a full fledged home with 2 bedrooms. I spent ~$75k on materials (outside of the $50k I spent on living expenses). It probably added atleast $100k of value if not more.
"That’s honestly how life is meant to be lived but it’s too bad we’re not at UBI levels in society yet"
This sounds great. My question is why should I have to work and pay for you to do what you want all day?
This sounds great. My question is why should I have to work and pay for you to do what you want all day?
With UBI you would receive it too. I presume the person that pays the cost is large industrialists with automated factories with billions in profits.
Yes, that sounds very nice and you are very privileged and lucky. Leisure is definitely a lot nicer than work, but there's a lot of work someone has to do. You can choose to pay people to work, or not, but if you pay people to not work you have to figure out some other incentive for workers or the necessary work won't get done at all.
I do prefer living in industrialized society to subsistence farming and slavery, personally, so maybe let's try to keep the incentives in place and NOT copy the Soviets, yeah?
And implying that there's a way we're "meant" to live implies we were created by a conscious being with intent, and I think you'll find that's a controversial view
I do prefer living in industrialized society to subsistence farming and slavery, personally, so maybe let's try to keep the incentives in place and NOT copy the Soviets, yeah?
And implying that there's a way we're "meant" to live implies we were created by a conscious being with intent, and I think you'll find that's a controversial view
I get it, to have a functioning society we need people to work. There is some paradigm in the future where a lot of the labor can be automated, we’re just not there yet.
A controversial view is a view that has been held by a majority of humans that have lived in the last few thousand years? Ok, I guess that checks out.
The moral of the story: Don’t quit your job unless you have an employment contract for another one or if you have a reliable, growing side hustle that generates enough income to live on. Real life bites hard, and $80k is peanuts.
Did we read the same article? This guy is spending his time learning music, mastering a sport, spending time with close friends, and your takeaway is “he should be grinding away at a corporate like everyone else”?
There’s a lot of different ways to live. Personally I like taking periods of voluntary unemployment to explore other interests. Finding a job after has never been a problem.
A large percentage of the population has at least some safety net. Probably the average 25 year old could move back in with their parents for a year if things got really bad.
There’s a lot of different ways to live. Personally I like taking periods of voluntary unemployment to explore other interests. Finding a job after has never been a problem.
A large percentage of the population has at least some safety net. Probably the average 25 year old could move back in with their parents for a year if things got really bad.
In other words, the parents protect the kid from real life. No thanks.
Or allow the kid to take risks and do more with their lives than they would otherwise, and become self-sufficient in an interesting and unexpected way.
What would you want for your own kids? 45 years of grudging corporate toil, then death?
What’s the point of become a wealthy and prosperous society if we’re so goddamn uncreative about how we live in it?
What would you want for your own kids? 45 years of grudging corporate toil, then death?
What’s the point of become a wealthy and prosperous society if we’re so goddamn uncreative about how we live in it?
That is privileged take. The things we take for granted in a 'prosperous' society- food on grocery store shelves, doctors available in the ER, plumbers to fix your plumbing, etc. etc. all require people to work 'standard' hours and follow 'standard' paths. The path of the 'creative' tech worker taking two years off is incredibly privileged, and I would argue infantilizing.
The things we require in society doesn't need people to work 40h a week until they're 70 years old. The reason most people can't take two years off is not because society can't go without the fruits of their labor.
No shit. The whole point of being a parent is to give your kids as much privilege as you can. Why are you talking like it's a bad thing? My parents moved here to bring me a better life than them and I'm working to give my kids a better life than me. Are you planning on hoarding all your money and making your kids stock shelves to keep them away from "privilege"?
this is a common attitude, especially in china where i have observed it, but it is much less common in europe. myself for example i am the total opposite. i don't know what my parents goals were, but i don't think it was giving us a better life. not that it matters though, because i am proud that i never needed financial support from my parents. i achieved more of my goals and dreams than my parents did of theirs because my parents, as imperfect as they were, gave me resilience.
and that is what i want to give to my kids as well. not privilege. i want them to learn that not everyone has it as good as we do, and that we need to work in order to have a better life, and that we need to help others do the same. perhaps this is itself a position of privilege to be able to do that instead of living in a comfortable place in europe where my neighbors would like to go to to have a better life.
and that is what i want to give to my kids as well. not privilege. i want them to learn that not everyone has it as good as we do, and that we need to work in order to have a better life, and that we need to help others do the same. perhaps this is itself a position of privilege to be able to do that instead of living in a comfortable place in europe where my neighbors would like to go to to have a better life.
“Europe” isn’t homogeneous either. My English grandfather was stingy, irascible, and highly educated, and he kicked most of his kids out at 16 since that was the age when he had to fend for himself. He maintained strained relationships with his kids for the rest of his life, although he loved his grandkids unconditionally and was a pretty good grandfather.
My Eastern European grandfather never finished high school, and his whole purpose in life was to provide opportunities for his kids. They worked hard and built good lives with the advantages he gave them. Now he’s in his nineties and one of his kids visits him basically every day. He seems happy.
He’s also outlived my English grandfather by almost ten years, but that could be coincidence or genetics.
My Eastern European grandfather never finished high school, and his whole purpose in life was to provide opportunities for his kids. They worked hard and built good lives with the advantages he gave them. Now he’s in his nineties and one of his kids visits him basically every day. He seems happy.
He’s also outlived my English grandfather by almost ten years, but that could be coincidence or genetics.
If our society falls apart, it won’t be because I took a break from deploying kubernetes clusters for three months so I could get better at skiing and volunteer on the suicide hotline.
And yeah, this is a very privileged take. Is there some other way you’d prefer that I use my privilege?
And yeah, this is a very privileged take. Is there some other way you’d prefer that I use my privilege?
This. I took breaks of 3-6 months in-between jobs to explore, learn and grow and it always led me to better opportunities, skill acquisition and moving to a better more stable life.
This essay is kind of radical but outlines a few amazing points of unstructured work time: https://www.palladiummag.com/2022/01/06/quit-your-job/
This essay is kind of radical but outlines a few amazing points of unstructured work time: https://www.palladiummag.com/2022/01/06/quit-your-job/
This guy is spending more than he makes. Who is bankrolling him?
It sounds like he is bankrolling himself, by working and saving up money.
According to the article, no he isn't
Exact same situation - 2 years deep here but at a breaking point cannot continue this trajectory.
I'm depressed studying computer science. Been thinking about quitting seeing how people with years of experience can't even find work.
CS professor here. Don’t quit. CS has been one of the most enlightening experiences of my life. I have made many friends along the way, been able to participate in inspiring projects, and felt like I worked in a vibrant field that gave me a powerful lens on the world. Yes, it is hard work. But the work is worth it.
Since coming to CS my highs have been higher and my lows lower than in other disciplines. And I came late. I started grad school in my thirties. But something that I learned when I was young, from well before my time in CS is true in this discipline too: if you do good work, people eventually notice. There will be a snowball effect.
It’s true, it doesn’t work out for everyone. But nothing does. And if you don’t take the opportunity to do something difficult, you’ll never know if you could have done it. I personally could not live with that thought. Those who do not try cannot succeed. But those who try—and retry when things don’t work out—probably will not fail either.
Since coming to CS my highs have been higher and my lows lower than in other disciplines. And I came late. I started grad school in my thirties. But something that I learned when I was young, from well before my time in CS is true in this discipline too: if you do good work, people eventually notice. There will be a snowball effect.
It’s true, it doesn’t work out for everyone. But nothing does. And if you don’t take the opportunity to do something difficult, you’ll never know if you could have done it. I personally could not live with that thought. Those who do not try cannot succeed. But those who try—and retry when things don’t work out—probably will not fail either.
++1
Thanks for this energetic and super-true comment!
Even if OP finishes and decides not work in tech/IT for the rest of the life, having a CS background is VERY solid background for a looooot of jobs. Also, usually you get a good payment.
And never forget what MAdreessen said: "Software is eating the world"
:)
Thanks for this energetic and super-true comment!
Even if OP finishes and decides not work in tech/IT for the rest of the life, having a CS background is VERY solid background for a looooot of jobs. Also, usually you get a good payment.
And never forget what MAdreessen said: "Software is eating the world"
:)
Recently became a data analyst. It couldn’t be more true, my CS background definitely helped me
> Jack daniels here. Keep drinking.
\s
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Absolutely do not quit. The loudest people are ones that cannot find a job, people that do are not going to be writing blogs like "My 27th year as a hacker" - no one will read that shit.
There are roughly 1.5 million software developers alone in the United States. If you love computer science you will excel in this industry for many years after you graduate. Quit only if your heart is not in it, the worst people I've worked with in my 27 year career are ones who obviously went with this career only because it can be a decent way to make a living.
But worry not, if you are end up loving what you do you'll be great at what you do and people that are great at what they do will always be wanted.
There are roughly 1.5 million software developers alone in the United States. If you love computer science you will excel in this industry for many years after you graduate. Quit only if your heart is not in it, the worst people I've worked with in my 27 year career are ones who obviously went with this career only because it can be a decent way to make a living.
But worry not, if you are end up loving what you do you'll be great at what you do and people that are great at what they do will always be wanted.
100%, and to add to this... people who are just doing it for the money should absolutely quit, because they tend to end up wanting to switch roles or often quit a couple years in anyway.
People that actually enjoy writing software / solving problems are the ones that get ahead.
People that actually enjoy writing software / solving problems are the ones that get ahead.
> people who are just doing it for the money should absolutely quit
I hate to tell you this. But any job that pays as much as a software dev in the USA is going to have 50% or more people who do the job for the money. You can learn to love what you do. But when you're 18 trying to find out what to do, for a lot of people money matters most.
I love being a software dev. I got obsessed when in college, made a lot of pet projects just for fun, kept that energy up throughout my career till I got married and had kids, and I am so glad I made that choice. But if it didn't pay what I knew back in college it pays, I wouldn't have done the job.
I hate to tell you this. But any job that pays as much as a software dev in the USA is going to have 50% or more people who do the job for the money. You can learn to love what you do. But when you're 18 trying to find out what to do, for a lot of people money matters most.
I love being a software dev. I got obsessed when in college, made a lot of pet projects just for fun, kept that energy up throughout my career till I got married and had kids, and I am so glad I made that choice. But if it didn't pay what I knew back in college it pays, I wouldn't have done the job.
I've also noticed that over the years those are the candidates who are most unable to find a job. And having interviewed a fair number of candidates, the number of passionate devs out there is smaller than you'd expect.
I've been really surprised by that as well. Often, I'm the only dev on the team that does development and learns new things on the side.
I disagree.
I have been in it for the money and also in it because I like it. I don’t like it for 8 hours per day but I do like CS.
I don’t love it though, and have transitioned since. But having the skill, the background and the grit (due to not loving it), it’s awesome.
Just to give a more nuanced perspective. I think the whole love it or leave attitude is too binary.
I have been in it for the money and also in it because I like it. I don’t like it for 8 hours per day but I do like CS.
I don’t love it though, and have transitioned since. But having the skill, the background and the grit (due to not loving it), it’s awesome.
Just to give a more nuanced perspective. I think the whole love it or leave attitude is too binary.
Computer science opens the door to a wide range of work. The lower end of that range is indeed insecure and doesn't pay very well. However, get into the right industry, and you can match a lawyer for income -- without all the hastle and hurdles that junior lawyers have to go through. We're talking easily the upper 4% of income as a junior, eventually going up to 2% or 1% as you gain seniority.
The reason is, there are some skills which are highly in demand, and few people are strong in those skills. In particular, I am thinking of HPC engineering and cloud computing infrastructure engineering. Companies and institutions own large server fleets, we're talking hundreds or thousands of servers. They want whatever is running on those fleets to have high performance, security, and zero downtime.
This kind of work requires strong Linux systems administration and programming skills, an understanding of enterprise networking and storage technologies, confidence with at least one orchestration stack such as OpenStack or Kubernetes, and strong CI/CD and IaC skills (look up GitOps.) As a junior, you don't need to tick all these boxes, but people should be able to see that you're able to learn whatever you're missing.
These skills don't usually come directly from a computer science degree. However, a computer science degree is the primary way to get your foot in the door with building those skills. If you want a junior job in cloud computing and are cold-calling because you don't know anyone yet, then it will help if you have good marks in a computer science degree (although it's possible to prove your chops in other ways, like having a history of strong contributions to open source.)
Later, after you build some experience, and you prove that you can keep learning, you get the job done, and you can get along with people, you'll eventually have recruiters chasing after you, and companies willing to listen to whatever income you pitch to them.
The reason is, there are some skills which are highly in demand, and few people are strong in those skills. In particular, I am thinking of HPC engineering and cloud computing infrastructure engineering. Companies and institutions own large server fleets, we're talking hundreds or thousands of servers. They want whatever is running on those fleets to have high performance, security, and zero downtime.
This kind of work requires strong Linux systems administration and programming skills, an understanding of enterprise networking and storage technologies, confidence with at least one orchestration stack such as OpenStack or Kubernetes, and strong CI/CD and IaC skills (look up GitOps.) As a junior, you don't need to tick all these boxes, but people should be able to see that you're able to learn whatever you're missing.
These skills don't usually come directly from a computer science degree. However, a computer science degree is the primary way to get your foot in the door with building those skills. If you want a junior job in cloud computing and are cold-calling because you don't know anyone yet, then it will help if you have good marks in a computer science degree (although it's possible to prove your chops in other ways, like having a history of strong contributions to open source.)
Later, after you build some experience, and you prove that you can keep learning, you get the job done, and you can get along with people, you'll eventually have recruiters chasing after you, and companies willing to listen to whatever income you pitch to them.
Second on Cloud Infra and SRE stuff. All the big players need it and you have a lever which can move the moon. If you are good at what you do you will have a massive impact on the company. You hear lots of stories like “I saved my company XXX million dollars per year by turning off versioned objects in S3”. I think the hardest part I have had is there is a lot of tacit knowledge in infrastructure, usually you are not the first person to solve a particular problem and anyone who has good industry experience can tell you immediately what you should do. For example I was looking at distributed storage and for kubernetes and was testing out OpenEBS, I spent about 2 months setting it up and getting it working only to find it had some critical shortfalls. Later I was talking with another person from industry and they are like “yea you should just use rook/ceph, everyone uses it”. And lo and behold rook solves my problems and works great.
> match a lawyer for income
The low end of lawyers is also way, way lower. Law in the US has a massively bimodal income distribution, way more pronounced than Tech with Finance / Big tech paying more. In law your new grads at big firms may pull $200k or whatever, but the median for the rest is like $50k.
It's pretty brutal if you're not top xy% of your class.
The low end of lawyers is also way, way lower. Law in the US has a massively bimodal income distribution, way more pronounced than Tech with Finance / Big tech paying more. In law your new grads at big firms may pull $200k or whatever, but the median for the rest is like $50k.
It's pretty brutal if you're not top xy% of your class.
You will find work. One thing to keep in mind is the job market goes in cycles. Right now, finding work is hard but things will eventually pick up. Here is some advice for job hunting:
1) DO NOT GIVE UP 2) You don't need every skill the employer is asking for. What you need are the major skills the job requires and the ability to pickup the rest on the job. 3) Only apply for jobs where you are a good fit. 4) While job hunting, spend time each day learning a new skill. It can be a programming language, a technology, or something interesting. 5) Once you get a job, save lots of money. It helps you make it through lean times and sets you up for a nice retirement.
One last thing. If your depression does not let up after 6 months, I strongly recommend seeing a therapist and a psychiatrist. I wish you luck. Things will get better.
1) DO NOT GIVE UP 2) You don't need every skill the employer is asking for. What you need are the major skills the job requires and the ability to pickup the rest on the job. 3) Only apply for jobs where you are a good fit. 4) While job hunting, spend time each day learning a new skill. It can be a programming language, a technology, or something interesting. 5) Once you get a job, save lots of money. It helps you make it through lean times and sets you up for a nice retirement.
One last thing. If your depression does not let up after 6 months, I strongly recommend seeing a therapist and a psychiatrist. I wish you luck. Things will get better.
In the US, any good therapist is very expensive and not covered by insurance.
This isn't true. Honestly every time I've looked, a therapist taking my typical insurance just took making about 50 phone calls. Most people make five phone calls and then give up.
"just" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here.
sure, 5 calls may be giving up to early. but 50? if i give up after 40 calls does that mean i haven't been trying hard enough?
sure, 5 calls may be giving up to early. but 50? if i give up after 40 calls does that mean i haven't been trying hard enough?
There's a reason I said "good therapist." That's completely different from "any licensed therapist."
You're just proving my point - you had to make 50 calls to reach "any licensed therapist" covered by your insurance.
Why do you think the other 49 weren't in-network? It's because, if they're good, they can make much more out-of-network, direct billing patients.
You're just proving my point - you had to make 50 calls to reach "any licensed therapist" covered by your insurance.
Why do you think the other 49 weren't in-network? It's because, if they're good, they can make much more out-of-network, direct billing patients.
At least in the original post, my reading was not that they couldn’t find work, but that they had quit to go do startup stuff.
The (tech) job market is definitely not great at the moment, but I do think people are overstressing how bad it is a bit, and in any case these things are cyclical. I started a CS degree in 2003, just after the dot-com crash, and finished in 2007, just heading into the financial crisis. Both of those kind of cratered the job market for a bit, but it recovered.
The (tech) job market is definitely not great at the moment, but I do think people are overstressing how bad it is a bit, and in any case these things are cyclical. I started a CS degree in 2003, just after the dot-com crash, and finished in 2007, just heading into the financial crisis. Both of those kind of cratered the job market for a bit, but it recovered.
There's jobs out there. My company has turnover, which means people are going somewhere, and we're hiring, too. Make Connections!! Any kind of foot in the door is leagues better than cold-applying.
If it helps, I have years of experience and got 2 offers (good ones too) after applying to a handful of companies in March this year.
If you are skilled, can talk to people and aren't afraid to put in the yards to prepare for interviews you'll do just fine.
If you are skilled, can talk to people and aren't afraid to put in the yards to prepare for interviews you'll do just fine.
The way I see it, it's not CS per se, it's about solving problems.
You hone that skill, and it will shape your future, whatever field.
You'll never be jobless having that particular skill.
Don't give up.
You hone that skill, and it will shape your future, whatever field.
You'll never be jobless having that particular skill.
Don't give up.
Tech job market flucuates like any other field. Its in a downturn right now. Won't be forever.
Still, you have to do what is right for you. The downturn might end tomorrow. It might take a decade. Nobody knows.
Still, you have to do what is right for you. The downturn might end tomorrow. It might take a decade. Nobody knows.
if you love computer science don't quit - I'd definitely triple down on real world projects/output rather than just studying though.
I intentionally left to work on projects I wanted to pursue, built a startup that isn't currently covering costs (1 customer on an annual plan), lived in Thailand for 6 months (with kids going to to school there), the burn rate on return has taken it's toll (California)...but yeah recently put feelers out for potential work and see it's going to be quite the mission to find work (personally).
I intentionally left to work on projects I wanted to pursue, built a startup that isn't currently covering costs (1 customer on an annual plan), lived in Thailand for 6 months (with kids going to to school there), the burn rate on return has taken it's toll (California)...but yeah recently put feelers out for potential work and see it's going to be quite the mission to find work (personally).
Didn't see an email in profile, so I'll ask here. What was your experience with schooling in Thailand? Public or international school?
“Can’t find work” can have different meanings for different people.
Maybe they just haven’t found a job with the pay grade they want.
What’s a better alternative?
try 10 years because i havent made a dime since 2016
If this is not by choice, I hope you solve your problems and I hope things get better. Please do not give up.
go work at Costco
its money
its money
I'm a kind of political fugitive (probably will go into the prison for the beliefs if return to the country of origin), living in one of EU countries, married, having a little child and two dogs, owning apartament, have no significant health issues, also having second year without income at all, having some money on banking account, full-time working for the own startup on open source project. And I do not feel very disappointed.
Well I’ll be damned if it didn’t make my day to read somebody talking so honestly about their life. Thanks for the being relatable, and for putting yourself out there.
Whenever I read articles like this and the ensuing "just relax and go have fun/travel" comment chains, I think to myself I'm living in an alien universe. Not having a job is a pants-on-fire emergency, and I would be interviewing 24/7 until I corrected it, even if the hiring market meant that was hopeless. I'd be a nervous wreck until I found a job, any job.
It's absolutely wild to see people 1. with the privilege of having $80K in liquid savings to just... chill while unemployed, and 2. with the willingness and mindset that allows them to do that chilling without freaking out. Total Zen Masters you all are. I couldn't do it.
Every $10K I blew through while unemployed, I'd be thinking to myself: Accounting for time value of money, that's just pushed out my retirement date by 3 more months.
EDIT: I guess I should add that I'm married with a kid, since that obviously does affect the math on this one. Still, I don't think I'd change my opinion if I was single.
It's absolutely wild to see people 1. with the privilege of having $80K in liquid savings to just... chill while unemployed, and 2. with the willingness and mindset that allows them to do that chilling without freaking out. Total Zen Masters you all are. I couldn't do it.
Every $10K I blew through while unemployed, I'd be thinking to myself: Accounting for time value of money, that's just pushed out my retirement date by 3 more months.
EDIT: I guess I should add that I'm married with a kid, since that obviously does affect the math on this one. Still, I don't think I'd change my opinion if I was single.
The people I know who do this are either exceptionally talented that employment will never be an issue for them in their lifetime and/or (it's usually and), they can burn through $100k no problem, any day of the week.
Nobody I know is leaving a $70k a year job to take a sabbatical. They're usually leaving a $400k+ per year job and there'll be another similar job waiting for them when they're ready to jump back in.
Kids are another huge factor that changes this. I don't think I've known anyone who's done something like this with kids in the picture.
Nobody I know is leaving a $70k a year job to take a sabbatical. They're usually leaving a $400k+ per year job and there'll be another similar job waiting for them when they're ready to jump back in.
Kids are another huge factor that changes this. I don't think I've known anyone who's done something like this with kids in the picture.
I took a break after getting laid off from YCR (2017) and joining Google (2020). My wife just had our baby and she was a bit stir crazy, so I thought it better to focus on getting her a job first (so I would take care of the kid instead). We have a bit of redundancy now, which is useful at least (we are ok if either us loses their job, but we would definitely try to both stay working).
What they don't tell you is that employers are suspicious if you are out of the job market for more than a year. And anyways, no, it doesn't make sense to stay at home and raise your kid, just pay for the childcare and get back to work as soon as possible. And they wonder why birthrate is tanking...
What they don't tell you is that employers are suspicious if you are out of the job market for more than a year. And anyways, no, it doesn't make sense to stay at home and raise your kid, just pay for the childcare and get back to work as soon as possible. And they wonder why birthrate is tanking...
> What they don't tell you is that employers are suspicious if you are out of the job market for more than a year
literally one of the first things "they tell you" (it's common knowledge).
literally one of the first things "they tell you" (it's common knowledge).
I wasn’t told, or maybe didn’t take it seriously enough.
They may be suspicious as in they ask, but as soon as you say it was to raise a child it will be fully answered without issue
can’t believe the number of comments talking like this… the only way I would work for an employer like this is if my kid and wife were hungry and I had no other choice. without my family I wod rather be homeless than work for an employer like this (and yes, they are in a majority).
My companies (YCR and then Google) have been nothing but supportive of my family. But yes, I maybe dodged many bullets in my job search.
> They're usually leaving a $400k+ per year job and there'll be another similar job waiting for them when they're ready to jump back
Will there be though? I honestly don't know. I'm closer to that boat, I get (good) job offers every 3-6 months, but nonetheless, if I was laid off... I think that'll leave a pretty nasty mark on my resume, no matter the reason. I don't think I'd wait a year to start looking for jobs again. A big gap won't help either.
* Recruitment emails from top competitors I should say.
Will there be though? I honestly don't know. I'm closer to that boat, I get (good) job offers every 3-6 months, but nonetheless, if I was laid off... I think that'll leave a pretty nasty mark on my resume, no matter the reason. I don't think I'd wait a year to start looking for jobs again. A big gap won't help either.
* Recruitment emails from top competitors I should say.
I have two, one year long+ gaps on my resume at almost 40. Only a single employer has even asked about it. Though my situation is perhaps a bit different I suppose in that when I was was asked, I had about as "good" of a reason as you can possibly have, and they proceeded to make an offer.
All in all though, it's not impacted my ability to re-enter the job market, though I must admit I did assume prior that it would.
This will obviously vary by job market, country and your own capability to sell yourself I imagine.
All in all though, it's not impacted my ability to re-enter the job market, though I must admit I did assume prior that it would.
This will obviously vary by job market, country and your own capability to sell yourself I imagine.
It will not leave a nasty mark on your resume. That's your anxiety telling you that. Nobody cares unless there are other red flags to pair with it (e.g. lots of short tenure jobs, etc).
I took 6 months off last time I did a job switch. I had 10+ offers from top companies and not a single one of them asked me about the break or cared.
I took 6 months off last time I did a job switch. I had 10+ offers from top companies and not a single one of them asked me about the break or cared.
Exactly this. And a potential employer has an issue with the "gap" in the resume - RUN FOR THE HILLS (or if you need job immediately take it and continue interviewing and leave as soon as another opportunity present itself).
About a year ago we had an open position and hired SPECIFICALLY a person who took some time off after COVID. She was like "it was insanely stressful time and I need some time to regroup" and everyone who interviewed her was like "perfect, just perfect"!
About a year ago we had an open position and hired SPECIFICALLY a person who took some time off after COVID. She was like "it was insanely stressful time and I need some time to regroup" and everyone who interviewed her was like "perfect, just perfect"!
I can vouch for this advice. I had an encounter with a bad employer and a 6 month period without a job. I ended up taking a position somewhere that treated me like a freak for it and tried to use it to weaken negotiation. Additionally, they took issue to me not having many multi-year roles. Normally, I'd not tolerate that, but sometimes you just need health insurance (thanks, USA).
That place ended up being a terrible place to work for a number of reasons. I eventually found a much better team who didn't question any of that. It was an entirely freeing experience. It truthfully would have been a liability to stay there any longer as the leadership and technical skills were not there. I left alongside many other people and haven't looked back.
That place ended up being a terrible place to work for a number of reasons. I eventually found a much better team who didn't question any of that. It was an entirely freeing experience. It truthfully would have been a liability to stay there any longer as the leadership and technical skills were not there. I left alongside many other people and haven't looked back.
Gaps should not be an issue. But it’s still good to have a ready talking point around a gap if asked about it in an interview. If you are perceived as being evasive about an employment gap, it’s not unreasonable for an interviewer to draw a negative inference about that. At that point it’s not your potential employer with the problem regarding the gap…it’s you.
Just about anything can be spun to a positive or at least neutral light.
Just about anything can be spun to a positive or at least neutral light.
Depends. If you were let go from a well known and perceived successful organization that didn’t have a public mass layoff in the press, I am damn sure going to red flag that if you are interviewing with me.
You know that you don't have to show employment dates on your resume, right? If you feel like it, you can just show the number of months/years you worked at each position. No one is really going to bother to add them all up to see if they match the calendar years.
We're usually too focused on finding the few people that meet our requirements and don't have the time to waste looking for red flags.
We're usually too focused on finding the few people that meet our requirements and don't have the time to waste looking for red flags.
> Nobody I know is leaving a $70k a year job to take a sabbatical.
I took my first sabbatical at 25, with only a few years in the industry, making a lot less and I think $35k in the bank. Everyone told me I was crazy putting a gap in my CV, spending savings, etc. but I did anyway.
It was easily the best two years of my life, I travelled South America and Asia without a care in the world until the money was gone. Then I went back to work without an issue and have continued taking long periods off throughout my career. These days I'm a remote contractor, and even though I can and do work from anywhere I regularly still take months off at a time. I have a lot of savings too and a fully paid house in a country I love.
My point is that we create the anxiety for ourselves. A different lifestyle is possible if you make certain choices.
I took my first sabbatical at 25, with only a few years in the industry, making a lot less and I think $35k in the bank. Everyone told me I was crazy putting a gap in my CV, spending savings, etc. but I did anyway.
It was easily the best two years of my life, I travelled South America and Asia without a care in the world until the money was gone. Then I went back to work without an issue and have continued taking long periods off throughout my career. These days I'm a remote contractor, and even though I can and do work from anywhere I regularly still take months off at a time. I have a lot of savings too and a fully paid house in a country I love.
My point is that we create the anxiety for ourselves. A different lifestyle is possible if you make certain choices.
You hit a big nail square on the head.
Kids + spouse changes everything.
My condolences to the writer because it sounds like he had a divorce, which changed one part of that equation.
Kids + spouse changes everything.
My condolences to the writer because it sounds like he had a divorce, which changed one part of that equation.
> Kids are another huge factor that changes this.
Yep, I have have quit a perfectly good job to bum around Southeast Asia. Now that kids are in the picture being unemployed would be very stressful.
Yep, I have have quit a perfectly good job to bum around Southeast Asia. Now that kids are in the picture being unemployed would be very stressful.
3 months now might be more valuable than 3 months when you’re old.
> Nobody I know is leaving a $70k a year job to take a sabbatical
I did. Best decision of my career.
I did. Best decision of my career.
>Not having a job is a pants-on-fire emergency, and I would be interviewing 24/7 until I corrected it, even if the hiring market meant that was hopeless. I'd be a nervous wreck until I found a job, any job.
Same, although I'm not sure it's always a privilege thing, but also one's background. I've done pretty well for myself these last few years, and financially speaking it would not be the end of the world if I lost my job tomorrow. But I come from a working class family, and grew up with nothing.
I was raised and surrounded by family members who work a lot harder than I do for a lot less pay. They sacrificed a lot for me to go to school and get a good job, so if I were to lose it, the last thing I'd want to do is just chill for 2yrs even if I could afford to.
Same, although I'm not sure it's always a privilege thing, but also one's background. I've done pretty well for myself these last few years, and financially speaking it would not be the end of the world if I lost my job tomorrow. But I come from a working class family, and grew up with nothing.
I was raised and surrounded by family members who work a lot harder than I do for a lot less pay. They sacrificed a lot for me to go to school and get a good job, so if I were to lose it, the last thing I'd want to do is just chill for 2yrs even if I could afford to.
I think this might be the single biggest factor, and it seems hard, if not impossible, for most people who grew up in financially comfortable situations to truly understand how much it affects every aspect of your life.
I was fortunate to grow up relatively (lower?) middle-class, but even then, we weren't exactly financially secure, and I still remember how bad things were during the Great Recession, even though I wasn't working at the time. My wife grew up in poverty, and even though we're both doing decently in our careers, I don't know if she'd ever truly be able to get rid of the worry and anxiety that something might happen and we'd end up homeless. Even if we suddenly won the lottery and ended up with $500 million, that fear would probably still be there at least a little bit. And like you said, that fear makes enjoying/being comfortable with unemployment impossible.
I was fortunate to grow up relatively (lower?) middle-class, but even then, we weren't exactly financially secure, and I still remember how bad things were during the Great Recession, even though I wasn't working at the time. My wife grew up in poverty, and even though we're both doing decently in our careers, I don't know if she'd ever truly be able to get rid of the worry and anxiety that something might happen and we'd end up homeless. Even if we suddenly won the lottery and ended up with $500 million, that fear would probably still be there at least a little bit. And like you said, that fear makes enjoying/being comfortable with unemployment impossible.
Absolutely agree. Middle and upper class people view money and wealth fundamentally differently through a security lens. Growing up poor radically alters the way you feel about money, i'm more stressed about money than i've ever been, but on paper i'm doing great. I always feel like i'm one wrong move from disaster that will throw myself and my family into a pit we won't be able to escape from.
>My wife grew up in poverty, and even though we're both doing decently in our careers, I don't know if she'd ever truly be able to get rid of the worry and anxiety that something might happen and we'd end up homeless.
DUDE!!
Im older than you and I grew up poor.
Between my husband and I we have a little under half a million dollars in easily accessible liquid assets. I also have enough in my retirement accounts that I could definitely retire at 65 comfortably if I stopped contributing today (CoastFIRE).
I am just barely starting to feel like I'm financially secure.. like I don't feel it, but I logically tell myself that I am. I feel like I'm finally starting to believe myself.
DUDE!!
Im older than you and I grew up poor.
Between my husband and I we have a little under half a million dollars in easily accessible liquid assets. I also have enough in my retirement accounts that I could definitely retire at 65 comfortably if I stopped contributing today (CoastFIRE).
I am just barely starting to feel like I'm financially secure.. like I don't feel it, but I logically tell myself that I am. I feel like I'm finally starting to believe myself.
i think this is the sign of an inadequate safety net. i also grew up poor with a single parent who could not work until us children were old enough to be able to be at home without supervision. so we had to rely on government support.
now i am not exactly well off either. but i never felt i was financially insecure even when i was low on money. that safety net is always there, and having experienced it, i am comfortable trusting it.
now i am not exactly well off either. but i never felt i was financially insecure even when i was low on money. that safety net is always there, and having experienced it, i am comfortable trusting it.
The first few years out of university I consistently had < $10k on my bank account and was traveling as much as I could, with just occasional part time work to "fill up" a few k$. I loved it and couldn't imagine living any other way, neither retirement nor risks were just really on my mind at all (it wasn't really a zen thing).
Now I have a child and feel completely different. The moment she arrived I immediately felt way behind on retirement savings and stability and since then my #1 priority has been to catch up. I'm hoping that not long from now I'll be able to translate being more secure on paper to also mentally getting back the care free feeling I had before.
Now I have a child and feel completely different. The moment she arrived I immediately felt way behind on retirement savings and stability and since then my #1 priority has been to catch up. I'm hoping that not long from now I'll be able to translate being more secure on paper to also mentally getting back the care free feeling I had before.
It is incredible how long these feelings can stick with us. My first few years out of university, I didn't even make $10k total combined. It is taking a long time to come to terms with the fact that I'm doing better now. Behind in life and goals, but doing a bit better.
I completely agree with you. I actually have this privilege and I still would be absolutely grinding until I got any job.
I also think in terms of retirement - it's not just savings being depleted, but it's active months I'm not adding to my savings. And I'm certainly not living off of 50% of what I make post-tax, so the burn rate becomes exceptionally high.
I also think in terms of retirement - it's not just savings being depleted, but it's active months I'm not adding to my savings. And I'm certainly not living off of 50% of what I make post-tax, so the burn rate becomes exceptionally high.
I quit my job two years and four months ago. I'd worked non-stop for twenty years (10+ at the last company) and was getting three weeks of vacation time per year. I'm in my 40's and finally decided that I wanted to enjoy some of life while my body was still in shape. Watching the savings drain out is hard, but what's harder is thinking about going back to the grind and never having any time for myself again.
Also just turned 40 this year, coding straight since I graduated college. If you do need to go back to work, there are ways of making it feel more sustainable and not life-draining.
I was feeling close to burnout a couple years ago in my current job, but was lucky enough that they let me drop back to four days a week. And the company is fully remote, so I end up traveling about three months out of the year. I have a hobby that helps me meet people when I travel.
Maybe living overseas also helps life feel less like it’s passing me by.
Ideally I’d be able to take a few month sabbatical, now that I’ve been in my current role for 8+ years. Still working on that…
I was feeling close to burnout a couple years ago in my current job, but was lucky enough that they let me drop back to four days a week. And the company is fully remote, so I end up traveling about three months out of the year. I have a hobby that helps me meet people when I travel.
Maybe living overseas also helps life feel less like it’s passing me by.
Ideally I’d be able to take a few month sabbatical, now that I’ve been in my current role for 8+ years. Still working on that…
100% agree with this. Whoever said take a break and go traveling either have money saved up or have no idea what they are doing. Take a break from what ? Most of these people have not even worked for 5 years.
To enjoy some of your prime years?
I would rather make every year a prime year.
Your body unfortunately gets a vote
What does that even mean
it means that you will be progressively less able-bodied as you age, and that we live in a society that caters heavily towards the able-bodied
by working 40, 60 hours a week? what a prime
Wow aren't you projecting big time here? People have different goals and priorities, such as enjoying life while young.
Burnout happens before you even realize it. By prioritizing regular breaks, you can avoid burnout altogether
No time for burnout, he has no money in the account. I would start driving uber then join climbing clubs
FactKnower69(1)
My first thought is "which rich family member can they coast off of when shit gets really bad" or "where's the rest of the money you haven't touched yet?"
So many of these "I've been funemployed for 5 years" articles NEVER talk about the hidden asterisk that, well, actually, they have plenty of money and are just fine; they're just conventionally broke.
So many of these "I've been funemployed for 5 years" articles NEVER talk about the hidden asterisk that, well, actually, they have plenty of money and are just fine; they're just conventionally broke.
Yea, I think a lot of it is this. In a lot of these discussions, nobody wants to admit that their family is loaded. Although they might have to swallow their pride a little, if things get bad they could just move back in with lawyer dad or doctor mom, and they'd be fine indefinitely. I think that's very different, stress-wise, than "I have $100K of savings and am willing to sacrifice years of future retirement to blow through it."
In my experience, the relax and travel crowd has much more than 80k liquid - or the ability to acquire much more than 80k via relatives etc.
Alternately, they have very cheap tastes. It's entirely possible to live off of 15k per year while hiking the AT, there are at least 5 equivalent trails to hike globally.
Alternately, they have very cheap tastes. It's entirely possible to live off of 15k per year while hiking the AT, there are at least 5 equivalent trails to hike globally.
I would read the story posted with a bit of skepticism. They obviously have more of a safety net then they're letting on - because there's simply ZERO way that they wouldn't be stressing if all they genuinely had in savings was ~60 CAD and the stated rent is 1200.
I also travelled the world, but I did it as an ESL teacher. Nothing encourages you to integrate faster into a country's culture and learn the native language than actually working there, and you feel like less of a tourist.
I also travelled the world, but I did it as an ESL teacher. Nothing encourages you to integrate faster into a country's culture and learn the native language than actually working there, and you feel like less of a tourist.
I get your point because I'm also quite like that, but the reality is that I've spent all of 2024 in dead-end interviews and got no results other than wasting time. In hindsight, "had I had the crystal ball", it would have been more rewarding to relax good and proper. I still don't have a crystal ball, though.
> Accounting for time value of money, that's just pushed out my retirement date by 3 more months
You account for the time value of money, but not for the time value of time.
A week right now is worth more than a week 30 years from now. 30 years from now, your life might have changed beyond all recognition, or you might be dead.
Reasonable people can disagree over how to discount future freedom-from-work vs present freedom-from-work.
You account for the time value of money, but not for the time value of time.
A week right now is worth more than a week 30 years from now. 30 years from now, your life might have changed beyond all recognition, or you might be dead.
Reasonable people can disagree over how to discount future freedom-from-work vs present freedom-from-work.
Playing devil's advocate: a dollar right now is also worth more than a dollar 30 years from now, both from an inflationary and from an investment perspective.
That said, I'm still largely in agreement with you. While there are a myriad ways to make more money, there's no way to make more time.
That said, I'm still largely in agreement with you. While there are a myriad ways to make more money, there's no way to make more time.
How old are you?
I used to be in the same boat. Somewhere in my 30s I realized I could fall back on my skills if it ever warranted. Now I am between jobs and considering not going back to work.
What I’m saying is that your life outlook shifts as you age and experience common life events
I used to be in the same boat. Somewhere in my 30s I realized I could fall back on my skills if it ever warranted. Now I am between jobs and considering not going back to work.
What I’m saying is that your life outlook shifts as you age and experience common life events
And you will live off... what exactly? Fall back on what skills? What does that even mean?
Your reply is cryptic and leaves crucially important details out.
OK, I figure I don't want to work anymore. Who pays my rent / mortgage? Who pays food, bills?
Your reply is cryptic and leaves crucially important details out.
OK, I figure I don't want to work anymore. Who pays my rent / mortgage? Who pays food, bills?
You save money.
Take some time off and live off your savings.
If you want to start making money you go back to the workforce (e.g. fall back to your skills).
Take some time off and live off your savings.
If you want to start making money you go back to the workforce (e.g. fall back to your skills).
I do that, many others do that.
We still can't sit two years without a job though.
We still can't sit two years without a job though.
the first thing I am going to tell my kid when she enters the "workforce" is that her #1 PRIORITY (she won't have any student loan debt) is to save F YOU money. 6 months at least, 12 preferably. Life without it is terrible. Not just for the fear of losing your job and not knowing what tomorrow brings but (in my opinion) even worse - staying on a job that makes you miserable because you need that paycheck coming regularly to survive...
Does that amount qualify as "F YOU" money? I always thought it was if you have multiple years worth of savings.
But I agree. Some funds to fall back on is critical. The amount is highly dependent on your situation and risk comfort level and can be argued back and forth but not having any puts you at the mercy of whatever your employer/manager decides. Or even you getting sick and unable to work for a while. And even if the former doesn't happen, the latter definitely will at some point.
Though I am reading some of these comments and wondering why they'd call losing a job an end-of-the-world scenario. I've always thought people on this forum are the type of working professionals that could afford to put away a few hundred dollars a month even if they're not on SV wages. Mind you, I am not talking about an amount of money to allow you to retire but just enough to get you going for a few months until you can figure something out. Even if married and with children. That just changes the math a little bit but not the approach. Is there something I am missing?
But I agree. Some funds to fall back on is critical. The amount is highly dependent on your situation and risk comfort level and can be argued back and forth but not having any puts you at the mercy of whatever your employer/manager decides. Or even you getting sick and unable to work for a while. And even if the former doesn't happen, the latter definitely will at some point.
Though I am reading some of these comments and wondering why they'd call losing a job an end-of-the-world scenario. I've always thought people on this forum are the type of working professionals that could afford to put away a few hundred dollars a month even if they're not on SV wages. Mind you, I am not talking about an amount of money to allow you to retire but just enough to get you going for a few months until you can figure something out. Even if married and with children. That just changes the math a little bit but not the approach. Is there something I am missing?
> Does that amount qualify as "F YOU" money? I always thought it was if you have multiple years worth of savings.
F YOU money is so that if your boss/employer/... pisses you off you can tell him "F YOU" and pack your shit and leave without a single worry on your mind
> The amount is highly dependent on your situation and risk comfort level and can be argued back and forth
Absolutely not - it is a simple math. If I spend $10k per month, I need $60k or $120k saved to have a cushion of 6 months (or 12 months). there is no argument, I said F YOU and I am now without a care in the world and can take my time to figure out what I am going to do next without needing to stay somewhere that makes me miserable (or same if I get fired)
> Is there something I am missing?
"According to a YouGov survey from May 2023, only 18% of Americans have savings between $1,000 and $10,000"
Now of course probably 2% of them or less are here on HN...
F YOU money is so that if your boss/employer/... pisses you off you can tell him "F YOU" and pack your shit and leave without a single worry on your mind
> The amount is highly dependent on your situation and risk comfort level and can be argued back and forth
Absolutely not - it is a simple math. If I spend $10k per month, I need $60k or $120k saved to have a cushion of 6 months (or 12 months). there is no argument, I said F YOU and I am now without a care in the world and can take my time to figure out what I am going to do next without needing to stay somewhere that makes me miserable (or same if I get fired)
> Is there something I am missing?
"According to a YouGov survey from May 2023, only 18% of Americans have savings between $1,000 and $10,000"
Now of course probably 2% of them or less are here on HN...
To me, F-YOU money means "enough to retire today." It means you can live your current lifestyle using just 3% of it per year, which is a pretty normal retirement draw-down rate. Anything less, and it's not really F-YOU money, it's "I can take a brief sabbatical at the cost of adding N more years of work before retirement" money.
Yeah, that's closer to my understanding as well. Not necessarily retirement but a few years of runway perhaps. The 6-12 months thing I've always seen being called an "emergency fund" which in turn is different to your savings which may not be liquid.
Yes, AND if you're using your emergency fund then you should be in an emergency mindset, not chilling out surfing in Bali.
There is a HUGE difference between emergency fund and FU$
If my lifestyle currently is:
- summer vacay in Bali
- two ski trips, one US, one in the Alps
- eating out once per week
- daily Starbucks
- …
FU$ means I continue doing EXACTLY this, for 6/12/18 months.
Emergency fund would be I cut down all my expenses to a bare minimum until I find new source of income. Can’t say FU if I can’t go to Bali (I love Bali :) )
If my lifestyle currently is:
- summer vacay in Bali
- two ski trips, one US, one in the Alps
- eating out once per week
- daily Starbucks
- …
FU$ means I continue doing EXACTLY this, for 6/12/18 months.
Emergency fund would be I cut down all my expenses to a bare minimum until I find new source of income. Can’t say FU if I can’t go to Bali (I love Bali :) )
Sure, I wouldn't advise taking any expensive vacations or anything of that nature. But what caught my attention were the terms "pants-on-fire emergency" and "I would be interviewing 24/7". I mean I get it would be a stressful situation and may cause anxiety or panic but having those strong emotions could also lead you to end up working in a bad workplace which would make your mental health even worse. I am not judging, but those words just left me wondering what am I missing. And this is speaking as someone with a family to support.
I agree with the zen masters description though. I wouldn't be so zen about it either.
I agree with the zen masters description though. I wouldn't be so zen about it either.
Here's the YouGov survey if anyone is interested [1]. A lot of people do indeed not have a lot of savings:
> One in 10 consumers do not have any savings (12%) while a slightly higher percentage of consumers say they have less than $100 in their savings account (14%). A further 13% of Americans say they have between $1,000 and $4,999 in savings. Altogether, that means that half of all Americans have less than $5,000 to fall back on.
[1] https://business.yougov.com/content/46083-how-much-does-the-...
> One in 10 consumers do not have any savings (12%) while a slightly higher percentage of consumers say they have less than $100 in their savings account (14%). A further 13% of Americans say they have between $1,000 and $4,999 in savings. Altogether, that means that half of all Americans have less than $5,000 to fall back on.
[1] https://business.yougov.com/content/46083-how-much-does-the-...
To be clear, I am agreeing with you.
Except that me saying the amount is dependent on your situation is leaving some margin for if your child is special needs or you're going through a divorce or taking care of elderly parents or things of that nature where you'd probably want to decrease your risks by increasing the 12 months to 18 months to account for more unknowns that wouldn't apply to other people, for example. I do not consider it to be simple math nor a matter of an absolute right/wrong stance.
Except that me saying the amount is dependent on your situation is leaving some margin for if your child is special needs or you're going through a divorce or taking care of elderly parents or things of that nature where you'd probably want to decrease your risks by increasing the 12 months to 18 months to account for more unknowns that wouldn't apply to other people, for example. I do not consider it to be simple math nor a matter of an absolute right/wrong stance.
I apologize for saying simple math in a kind of an “absolute” way but I meant it in a “math” sense that I know my expenses and as well how long of a “cushion” I need to feel like I can FU out of a bad situation (or if get into a bad situation beyond my control). I also know my known expenses are just that - known expenses but of course there is always the unknown. But I am guessing adults could ballpark a figure that will get them through X number of months
No problem. Now that you mention it, I find it incredible that many people I know wouldn't be able to tell how much they're spending on what. Not even ballpark it. This is the first thing to start with and is incredibly easy to do, if you choose to. Whether you call it FU money or emergency or something on the side or whatever, you at least need some numbers.
And we're not talking about wealthy people here but the ones who complain that there's nothing left when there's an interest rate increase. I don't know maybe it's the crowd I hang out with. Or maybe they are actually wealthy and just don't want to say it.
And we're not talking about wealthy people here but the ones who complain that there's nothing left when there's an interest rate increase. I don't know maybe it's the crowd I hang out with. Or maybe they are actually wealthy and just don't want to say it.
Hard HARD agree
I have that fund now and it completely changes how you approach work.
It's going to go away once we buy a house, but my top priority will be to restore it after the deal's done.
Good on you for paying their way through college; that will help a ton.
I have that fund now and it completely changes how you approach work.
It's going to go away once we buy a house, but my top priority will be to restore it after the deal's done.
Good on you for paying their way through college; that will help a ton.
It mostly just comes down to having kids, right? I am certain that if I were single and happy staying that way, I would be living in a van in Moab and doing the bare minimum amount of freelancing to keep myself fed.
I think it also comes down to relationships.
I would personally be extremely content living a very spartan life. If there were a barracks type arrangement where I just get a small room with desk and bathroom, and all food preparation were handled for me for a reasonable fee, access to a gym, and solid internet I'd be all over it.
But the minute you enter a romantic relationship, that generally stops being an acceptable living situation.
I would personally be extremely content living a very spartan life. If there were a barracks type arrangement where I just get a small room with desk and bathroom, and all food preparation were handled for me for a reasonable fee, access to a gym, and solid internet I'd be all over it.
But the minute you enter a romantic relationship, that generally stops being an acceptable living situation.
Why is there such a difference between men and women on this? I literally lived in a closet as a student. I'm quite content as long as I have a nice desk and chair, good internet, access to a gym and perhaps afford to eat out.
>Why is there such a difference between men and women on this?
Biological answer: women had to hold on to resources to care for their ofspring, so it's hardwired.
Politically incorrect answer: they are self entitled nutcases. If you think you are spending significantly more than what you think you can afford, dump your wife if she doesn't agree to downgrade on the lifestyle to save on expenses
Biological answer: women had to hold on to resources to care for their ofspring, so it's hardwired.
Politically incorrect answer: they are self entitled nutcases. If you think you are spending significantly more than what you think you can afford, dump your wife if she doesn't agree to downgrade on the lifestyle to save on expenses
That escalated quickly! I think biology has probably shaped us to worry about different things. As you say, I think it's probably that women look for a mate that can provide a good environment for raising kids. There's also the status aspect. Men are also status sensitive but it seems like they are much more willing to sacrifice status short term in order to focus on work and earning money long term, while women want a nice house etc no matter what, and it's up to the man to provide.
I don't think so. I have a wife, but we have no kids and will not have any, and a lot of savings, but I could not do something like this. If my income was less than my spending, I would feel incredible stress knowing there's this Time Limit To Doom hanging over my head. I'd also worry what a gap like that would do to my future job prospects. (I'm not saying I'm correct to feel that way, but that I would feel that way, and it would ruin things for me.) I also don't particularly enjoy traveling or lounging about, so those kinds of stories never appeal to me. I enjoy working. It is what it is, /shrug :)
That makes total sense, thanks for articulating it so clearly. Sometimes I wish I felt more that way, or at least that I could get myself to hate corporate work less. I do enjoy working for myself and freelancing, and that was all I did before I had a family to support. Now it’s too much risk to give up a steady paycheck and subsidized health insurance before my kids are off to college.
Yep. I was laid off a bit over a year ago, and I literally did nothing but try to get my next job, and fortunately got one in 2 months before my severance ran out.
I have easily enough to live a whole year or more without needing to work, but I would never consider that for even 1 second, tbh. Never even thought hard about why, it's just not an option to me.
I have easily enough to live a whole year or more without needing to work, but I would never consider that for even 1 second, tbh. Never even thought hard about why, it's just not an option to me.
Reading this article and its comments (except this one), the casual attitudes towards unemployment were striking. I realized just how few people here have children
I used to be like that.
First of all your situation and context is unique. Everyone has their own circumstances (including aging parents).
For many, even perhaps for you this is a reality. However for others its a fear of worst case scenario as a protection mechanism that served you when you were at a certain stage of life and many just kept it as a habit.
For a single grad without responsibilities after 3 years of working at a FAANG this fear of the future shackles them to explore and take calculated risks.
I've seen people with $20k in their savings account going for 1 year sabbatical describing it as transformational.
Its all priorities I guess and sometimes we can't say for every case that its actually the lack of agency that is holding you back.
Only you know for sure internally when reading this, if its making you uncomfortable and uneasy and if you have an emotional reaction.
For some, as mentioned its a reality and they are fully content with the limitations that they have and choices that they made in life that are now irreversible.
Up to everyone individually to evaluate their situation, however what is important to understand is that whether its really your context that is holding you hostage or just your fear.
First of all your situation and context is unique. Everyone has their own circumstances (including aging parents).
For many, even perhaps for you this is a reality. However for others its a fear of worst case scenario as a protection mechanism that served you when you were at a certain stage of life and many just kept it as a habit.
For a single grad without responsibilities after 3 years of working at a FAANG this fear of the future shackles them to explore and take calculated risks.
I've seen people with $20k in their savings account going for 1 year sabbatical describing it as transformational.
Its all priorities I guess and sometimes we can't say for every case that its actually the lack of agency that is holding you back.
Only you know for sure internally when reading this, if its making you uncomfortable and uneasy and if you have an emotional reaction.
For some, as mentioned its a reality and they are fully content with the limitations that they have and choices that they made in life that are now irreversible.
Up to everyone individually to evaluate their situation, however what is important to understand is that whether its really your context that is holding you hostage or just your fear.
Maybe it's the wrong way of looking at things but I have such minimal plans for retirement and that choice has led me to being extremely happy now rather than waiting for it later. The memories and adventures I've had by spending my money on experiences have led to moments and connections I don't think I can see myself having in retirement. It's a gamble but I'd rather live now and hope that when I retire, I 'Ll be happy to live an extremely frugal modest life.
There are a lot of people on hacker news that have significant savings from working in bay area tech.
I've been out for about two years. My retirement is a bullet or poison. It's just that simple. I will never earn FAANG money such that I can make up for the lost time.
>Not having a job is a pants-on-fire emergency, and I would be interviewing 24/7 until I corrected it,
This would have the absolutely opposite effect of that, I was in this mood and it made getting a job impossible because I'd appear too stressed and too depressed on every single interview. Sometimes relaxing and letting it be is just better and a lot more productive.
This would have the absolutely opposite effect of that, I was in this mood and it made getting a job impossible because I'd appear too stressed and too depressed on every single interview. Sometimes relaxing and letting it be is just better and a lot more productive.
There's a difference between panicking and making it your job to find your next job. We often hear the two extremes, "stressed and depressed" and "relaxed and on vacation".
"Delaying retirement" is absolutely an option - and not a bad one while with extremely flexible financial needs - but it's one to take eyes open.
"Delaying retirement" is absolutely an option - and not a bad one while with extremely flexible financial needs - but it's one to take eyes open.
"Accounting for time value of money, that's just pushed out my retirement date by 3 more months."
It sounds a bit, like retirement is your only goal in life.
Personally I am not sure, if I make it to retirement (WW3 or whatever), so I try to enjoy the ride a bit more.
Also yes, I do pratice Zen meditation. But I doubt I am a master ..
It sounds a bit, like retirement is your only goal in life.
Personally I am not sure, if I make it to retirement (WW3 or whatever), so I try to enjoy the ride a bit more.
Also yes, I do pratice Zen meditation. But I doubt I am a master ..
The odds are extremely high that you live to be at least 80 years old. If you plan on not having any money beyond when you're capable of doing what you're doing now, you're going to have a bad time.
"If you plan on not having any money beyond when you're capable of doing what you're doing now, you're going to have a bad time."
Oh for sure. And no, I am not doing that. But I am not optimizing for my retirement. I optimize for the now. If the now runs smooth, the momentum will also provide enough money and other support later on. But doing a shitty job will bring me a shitty life for sure. Taking a break from that, gave me new and better perspectives, than beeing trapped in a tight routine. We can compare in the future.
Oh for sure. And no, I am not doing that. But I am not optimizing for my retirement. I optimize for the now. If the now runs smooth, the momentum will also provide enough money and other support later on. But doing a shitty job will bring me a shitty life for sure. Taking a break from that, gave me new and better perspectives, than beeing trapped in a tight routine. We can compare in the future.
I also have a really hard time relating to the the whole financial independence / retire early crowd. I think I'd rather take the chance on growing as much as I can now so that I can be the wise person I want to be when I'm much older. Prioritizing experiences rather than aggressive saving. I figure the worst case is that I'm old living an extremely frugal life in a tiny place in the middle of nowhere Japan (where I currently live) reading books and playing all the games I bought when I was young, happily content with a life fully lived.
I recently went on a very personal international trip that wiped all my savings. I was able to reconnect with my culture and I made two friends who I cherish so much. The kind of friends that I would drop everything to help. I didn't have to go on these trips, I could have kept saving. But I don't regret that experience at all and it changed me immensely.
I recently went on a very personal international trip that wiped all my savings. I was able to reconnect with my culture and I made two friends who I cherish so much. The kind of friends that I would drop everything to help. I didn't have to go on these trips, I could have kept saving. But I don't regret that experience at all and it changed me immensely.
I’m exactly the same. I have excellent savings. But even still, unemployment is a must-fix critical emergency for me.
If nothing else, pulling money out of investments to fund expenses due to lack of income feels like robbing myself of future gains.
If nothing else, pulling money out of investments to fund expenses due to lack of income feels like robbing myself of future gains.
My problem is that the main thing I want to do when I have free time is work on DIY'ing around my home, and however much money you save in labor, materials and tool costs are still pretty significant.
> Whenever I read articles like this and the ensuing "just relax and go have fun/travel" comment chains, I think to myself I'm living in an alien universe. Not having a job is a pants-on-fire emergency, and I would be interviewing 24/7 until I corrected it, even if the hiring market meant that was hopeless. I'd be a nervous wreck until I found a job, any job.
That's on you. Stress is something you generated, not something that exists in the world.
That's on you. Stress is something you generated, not something that exists in the world.
stress comes from being backed into a corner. this may be from bad decisions or from unforseen circumstances. in countries where healthcare mostly depends on having a job and support is not guaranteed or not easy to come by this can happen much faster than you expect, and it's not always possible to prepare for that.
stress is also created by other people who insist that i am doing something wrong, and don't respect that i have a different opinion on that matter. people who have expectations that i can't or don't want to meet.
i did learn to avoid stress, even as i live in countries where there is no safety net. i am out of work now, and while putting in applications day after day is tiring, i am not stressed. but i come from a country that has a strong safety net, and i know that if i have to i can always go back there. i grew up with that safety net, and i know that i'll never be homeless unless it's by choice. that alone removes a major stress factor. i don't know how i would feel without that safety net.
stress is also created by other people who insist that i am doing something wrong, and don't respect that i have a different opinion on that matter. people who have expectations that i can't or don't want to meet.
i did learn to avoid stress, even as i live in countries where there is no safety net. i am out of work now, and while putting in applications day after day is tiring, i am not stressed. but i come from a country that has a strong safety net, and i know that if i have to i can always go back there. i grew up with that safety net, and i know that i'll never be homeless unless it's by choice. that alone removes a major stress factor. i don't know how i would feel without that safety net.
This thread is specifically talking about travel where you can go to places that have affordable healthcare, no?
How much you care about other people’s opinions is, again, entirely up to you.
How much you care about other people’s opinions is, again, entirely up to you.
I am not sure if you are really young, but you definitely sound like either nothing quite earth-shattering has happened in your life, or maybe some stuff has happened, but you have chosen to be very selective about how you digest it.
Sometimes life hits you like a truck, and you get trapped under that truck for a really long time. Then, once you get flung in the ditch and think you just had the most horrible N months/years of your life, a whole colony of fire ants starts crawling on you and pulling you apart.
So, yeah, sometimes certain actions could be a sign of privilege, sometimes, they could be the tiny thread giving a person a lifeline.
Being able to only optimize for proximity to retirement could be a more "privileged" state to be in, than having 80k in Canada in certain contexts.
Sometimes life hits you like a truck, and you get trapped under that truck for a really long time. Then, once you get flung in the ditch and think you just had the most horrible N months/years of your life, a whole colony of fire ants starts crawling on you and pulling you apart.
So, yeah, sometimes certain actions could be a sign of privilege, sometimes, they could be the tiny thread giving a person a lifeline.
Being able to only optimize for proximity to retirement could be a more "privileged" state to be in, than having 80k in Canada in certain contexts.
> I should add that I'm married with a kid, since that obviously does affect the math on this one.
That changes the equation altogether.
That changes the equation altogether.
Rampant singleness I guess.
IDK I have the same thought.
IDK I have the same thought.
Any basic financial advice would tell you to have 3-12 months worth of emergency fund ready for unexpected events. Losing your job is just another unexpected event. If you’ve got a 6-12 month runway of money, why wouldn’t you take a little bit to destress? And if you’re laid off in most tech roles, getting some (often substantial) severance is pretty common. You may not even need to tap into an emergency fund.
Even with a wife and kids, all that means is that you have more household expenses. Just means you’d need more money in said emergency fund.
Even with a wife and kids, all that means is that you have more household expenses. Just means you’d need more money in said emergency fund.
I moved to Silicon Valley in the fallout of the dot com bust, and I had this amazing HR director named Rex who gave me a fantastic intro to tech career life. One thing he told me that has stuck with me is "You need to live your life like you may not have a job tomorrow." The full weight of this didn't register for probably a decade or more, but I take it now to be this:
1. You may have zero income tomorrow. Plan for that, especially if you have a family. Tech companies pay good money, and you need to stash that money away while you have an income because there are pretty good chances that some day you'll wake up and not have a job.
2. You need to foster the professional relationships you make while doing your day job, because almost nobody is going to be working at that company until they die or retire, which means everybody is going to be looking for work. When it comes time to look for work, you will want a network to reach out to. When you find yourself in a position where you have something great and you need to hire great people to help you achieve your vision, you will want a great network to reach out to. Take time to look after the folks you care about. Pay special attention to the humans you have done great work with. Those people are probably going to be more valuable to you personally and professionally than the company you are working for, and the same goes the other way for them looking out for you.
This wisdom was later supplemented by a contractor we had hired at a different company, who came back to meet with us after we hadn't used all our paid hours and said "Look, I know you're upset that (some guy you loved working with) is no longer with us. We're also bummed about that. But we have done great work together as a combined team. Not as companies, but your engineering team and our engineering team. We hope that you will think about that when you need help with anything, at this company or in the future, just like we will think about you individuals when it comes time for us to solve problems that you would be good at solving."
Every time there is a layoff, I think about this nugget that Rex told me, and that supplemental anecdote, and every time they are just as relevant. This wisdom has saved me so much stress, and opened so many doors for me. I admit that it hasn't always let me take my unemployment completely worry free, and that I have made some desperate decisions while unemployed which I later regretted. That being said, I still think this is solid advice, not just for the tech industry, but for everybody everywhere. This is especially so if you are a humanist or are anti-bigcorp. It has helped me find peace with having to walk away from jobs when I needed time for me or my family, or when things just weren't working out. After the blood bath of 2023, I am living this advice more than ever, and the last few times I have wondered if I was on the chopping block, aside from the emotional response of visceral existential fears that come up in such cases, I've found peace in the rational knowledge that having planned for not having a job tomorrow, I can set those fears aside and look for the opportunity in my new circumstance.
1. You may have zero income tomorrow. Plan for that, especially if you have a family. Tech companies pay good money, and you need to stash that money away while you have an income because there are pretty good chances that some day you'll wake up and not have a job.
2. You need to foster the professional relationships you make while doing your day job, because almost nobody is going to be working at that company until they die or retire, which means everybody is going to be looking for work. When it comes time to look for work, you will want a network to reach out to. When you find yourself in a position where you have something great and you need to hire great people to help you achieve your vision, you will want a great network to reach out to. Take time to look after the folks you care about. Pay special attention to the humans you have done great work with. Those people are probably going to be more valuable to you personally and professionally than the company you are working for, and the same goes the other way for them looking out for you.
This wisdom was later supplemented by a contractor we had hired at a different company, who came back to meet with us after we hadn't used all our paid hours and said "Look, I know you're upset that (some guy you loved working with) is no longer with us. We're also bummed about that. But we have done great work together as a combined team. Not as companies, but your engineering team and our engineering team. We hope that you will think about that when you need help with anything, at this company or in the future, just like we will think about you individuals when it comes time for us to solve problems that you would be good at solving."
Every time there is a layoff, I think about this nugget that Rex told me, and that supplemental anecdote, and every time they are just as relevant. This wisdom has saved me so much stress, and opened so many doors for me. I admit that it hasn't always let me take my unemployment completely worry free, and that I have made some desperate decisions while unemployed which I later regretted. That being said, I still think this is solid advice, not just for the tech industry, but for everybody everywhere. This is especially so if you are a humanist or are anti-bigcorp. It has helped me find peace with having to walk away from jobs when I needed time for me or my family, or when things just weren't working out. After the blood bath of 2023, I am living this advice more than ever, and the last few times I have wondered if I was on the chopping block, aside from the emotional response of visceral existential fears that come up in such cases, I've found peace in the rational knowledge that having planned for not having a job tomorrow, I can set those fears aside and look for the opportunity in my new circumstance.
Are you young, or living outside the United States?
American developers are staggeringly well compensated.
American developers are staggeringly well compensated.
Most are not.
https://codesubmit.io/blog/software-engineer-salary-by-count...
$110,140 is pretty damn good for a job you can do from home in an office, with minimal physical risk.
If you can't put together $80k in savings after a decade or so on a salary like that, you have a spending problem.
$110,140 is pretty damn good for a job you can do from home in an office, with minimal physical risk.
If you can't put together $80k in savings after a decade or so on a salary like that, you have a spending problem.
Is it better to be unemployed rather than to find a crappy job that pays the bills? (AKA sucking it up while paying bills and looking for a real career job.)
I was in a similar situation and I worked at a warehouse as a loader, then at a kiosk to sell toys, and then sold necklaces at a mall (none of them were my businesses, just worked.) And I worked as a mover. Many odd jobs but I never accepted being unemployed for 2 years while depleting my savings.
Whether it is a matter of being homeless or not, I can find 1000+ odd jobs that pay for something + food from Craigslist right now. This is the reason why you will rarely see an immigrant being homeless or being picky about the jobs they find. Staying unemployed for years until finding the "best job" is a very privileged mindset. 3 months in no job? Find something to float, don't wait until your dream job appears out of nowhere.
I survived with $1000 a month for a very long time (in America, the money I earned from my jobs) while paying for a room, eating + transportation. If I had 80k, I'd buy a cheap van, live in it for free, and eat the bare minimum nutrition I need ($150 a month). I can survive with 80 for over a decade easily. God knows what this person is doing with his money. I am certain he has parents that he can count on.
These posts are extremely bizarre.
Now, downvote me to hell.
I was in a similar situation and I worked at a warehouse as a loader, then at a kiosk to sell toys, and then sold necklaces at a mall (none of them were my businesses, just worked.) And I worked as a mover. Many odd jobs but I never accepted being unemployed for 2 years while depleting my savings.
Whether it is a matter of being homeless or not, I can find 1000+ odd jobs that pay for something + food from Craigslist right now. This is the reason why you will rarely see an immigrant being homeless or being picky about the jobs they find. Staying unemployed for years until finding the "best job" is a very privileged mindset. 3 months in no job? Find something to float, don't wait until your dream job appears out of nowhere.
I survived with $1000 a month for a very long time (in America, the money I earned from my jobs) while paying for a room, eating + transportation. If I had 80k, I'd buy a cheap van, live in it for free, and eat the bare minimum nutrition I need ($150 a month). I can survive with 80 for over a decade easily. God knows what this person is doing with his money. I am certain he has parents that he can count on.
These posts are extremely bizarre.
Now, downvote me to hell.
I don't think this is a universal solution. I was unemployed for around 6 months, and my parents thought it was laziness that I didn't try to get a job at a gas station or something. I used the time to develop skills that helped me later. I got a job after that which didn't pay the best for being a software position, but the skills I fostered in that time were directly helpful in landing the next one that had a 60%+ pay bump with better benefits and learning opportunities. I absolutely would not have gotten this position without that time devoted to sharpening a specific skill set.
You were a young boy living with your parents under their protection. Likely they didn't care if you find a job within 6 months while they were helping you since you are their precious child (most parents do the same). That is not the same as blowing 80k while having fun acting like you couldn't find any survivable job for 2 years.
Someone I vaguely know made the recommendation in print that, if you lost your job, get something at Starbucks the next day. Don't really agree but the one time I lost my job, I did start doing regular professional job hunting the next day which materialized in fairly short order through my network. Had that not worked out, I'd probably have done something survivable absent any particular severance package.
It was sort of a dismal time in tech in general (dot-bomb) so I wouldn't have just taken a couple months to travel even if I could have afforded to do so.
It was sort of a dismal time in tech in general (dot-bomb) so I wouldn't have just taken a couple months to travel even if I could have afforded to do so.
it depends, you still need time and energy to apply for jobs, keep your skills sharp, etc. not every job allows you to do that. and in some countries doing jobs like that looks worse on your resume than a gap.
None of the resumes are real anyway. You can type garbage online projects to close the gaps. After work, you can still go home and study for 3-5 hours per day. That's what I did and I know it is possible. Whatever you do though, it is better than wasting time with friends and going out for adventures for 2 years while wasting your money and time.
I don’t know if I follow. So starving yourself alone in a van is a better use of time and money than going on adventures with friends? To what end?
You can survive with 80k over 10-15 years instead of 2 and it increases your chances to find the job you want in a van. The van part was a random example and an exaggeration, but if it were down to being homeless I'd buy a van with my last money. What I mean is don't waste your money while there real and easy options out there. I just can't wrap my head around the part of the OP's luxurious trips and having fun while draining a massive amount of money and not finding any job. Just go work for McD or Ralph's as a cashier while looking for a job. I just can't stand lazy people who act like victims.
There’s a moral in this story but the HN crowd ain’t gonna like it: money is capital. Two years ago the author had no job and 80k in the bank. At least half was disposable. Had he invested that 40k or more in a risk-averse fashion (20% s&p/btc; 80% t-bills) his position today would be much better. Instead he ate through his capital. Always invest your disposable savings or income. Hate me now. Thank me later.
He was investing it, in starting new businesses. He has revenue from one. The return just wasn't what he wanted.
I’ll sell you a $600/mo revenue stream for $80k any day of the week. Bro should have just bought a business.
80k is worth the learning, our society spends more on a college degree. ain't gonna learn anything just throwing cash at everything
You can buy a $100/mo business for $5k and learn on that while you still have a job
do you want to buy one from me?
No, $100/mo for $5k is still overpriced
then why are you suggesting other people do that?
Yep, 2024 market is considerably too good though. When he about to quit, I'd expect 8% yield (pessimistic) per year, so $6.4k/yr or $533/mo, that's "good" living quality in non major cities in Thailand. But to be fair, it's only good for locals, not for foreigners. And that $80k also needs to be invested 1 year before quitting.
It's doable for extending up to 3x of his runway.
It's doable for extending up to 3x of his runway.
If you get 8% returns per year on average, the expected annualized return over a multi-year period is going to be LESS than 8%.
This is because you won't get exactly 8% each year. For example, suppose the returns over a 3-year period are: 20%, -10%, 14%. In this case, the return over the whole period is 23.21% (= (1 + 0.20) * (1 - 0.10) * (1 + 0.14) - 1). On the other hand, a 8% return each year would have resulted in a 25.97% return over the whole period (= (1 + 0.08)^3 - 1).
This is because you won't get exactly 8% each year. For example, suppose the returns over a 3-year period are: 20%, -10%, 14%. In this case, the return over the whole period is 23.21% (= (1 + 0.20) * (1 - 0.10) * (1 + 0.14) - 1). On the other hand, a 8% return each year would have resulted in a 25.97% return over the whole period (= (1 + 0.08)^3 - 1).
When people say x% average annual return this is almost always referring to geometric mean already, so the above math doesn’t apply.
The type of people that want to start companies rarely invest. Once you adopt an investor mindset you start to see startups as one of the riskiest investments you could ever make.
I've seen quite a few one hit entrepreneurs lose it all chasing the next idea and never investing anything.
I've seen quite a few one hit entrepreneurs lose it all chasing the next idea and never investing anything.
Indie startup (or just simply call it "selling app online") is not bad if your "capital is lower than $1M" AND "desirable MRR at $10k". You can beat $1M capital, 10% return .. by making $10k MRR SaaS instead.
What's the difference in risk between the S&P and BTC? I'm all in on S&P and it feels as if BTC is an even bigger gamble.
The difference is volatility. S&P and BTC hit their bottoms around Nov 2022. Since then the former is almost 2x up, the latter almost 7x. Similarly once they hit their tops, S&P will go down 15-20% but BTC more like 50-70% down.
oh that's funny, somebody saying they should buy bitcoin with part of their money rather than blow it in 2 years trying to pursue their entrepreneur dreams.
It still boggles the mind that everyone had 3 chances (cycles) so far to 5-10x their capital with btc but they still think it’s funny. Hfsp ;)
Depends on when that money is going to result in the most valuable experiences, of course.
you can always earn more money after you spend it
I had a period of 6 months when I was unemployed burning through my savings.
It was one of the best times of my life. Like the author, I focused a lot of entrepreneurship, my mental and physical health, and traveled a lot.
But unlike the author, I came back to the workforce. I don’t know what’s the end game for the author, but I kind of feel torn here.
On one side, I’d say that it’s way easier to focus on building a business when you don’t have a job. On the other side, not having money to live on would stress me so much that I’m not sure I’d be able to do sport or engage in hobbies, let alone build a business.
It was one of the best times of my life. Like the author, I focused a lot of entrepreneurship, my mental and physical health, and traveled a lot.
But unlike the author, I came back to the workforce. I don’t know what’s the end game for the author, but I kind of feel torn here.
On one side, I’d say that it’s way easier to focus on building a business when you don’t have a job. On the other side, not having money to live on would stress me so much that I’m not sure I’d be able to do sport or engage in hobbies, let alone build a business.
Hi! Author here. You are very much on point. I only recently started looking for part-time jobs, and perhaps I should have mentioned it in the post. It's precisely what you said -- financial stress started impacting my hobbies and sports, and that's where I don't feel as comfortable anymore.
Wishing you the best! I think if you will be able to find a part time job that will cover your lifestyle financially, while dedicating the other half to entrepreneurship and hobbies/sport, it’s the best
Good luck man, glad you had a great two years, thanks for sharing!
Also, keep operating costs super cheap so you can keep the side hustle going and watch it grow over years. Don't shut it down unless you have to.
To make $600/m you would have to invest $180k at 5%, so from that perspective you have created something valuable already.
Also, keep operating costs super cheap so you can keep the side hustle going and watch it grow over years. Don't shut it down unless you have to.
To make $600/m you would have to invest $180k at 5%, so from that perspective you have created something valuable already.
> But unlike the author, I came back to the workforce. I don’t know what’s the end game for the author, but I kind of feel torn here.
His timing wasn't great. The tech job market is pretty dismal right now and will likely be dismal for a while. Unless we get back to a hot tech job market like circa 2020-2022 it's not going to be easy to find a gig after being out for 2 years.
His timing wasn't great. The tech job market is pretty dismal right now and will likely be dismal for a while. Unless we get back to a hot tech job market like circa 2020-2022 it's not going to be easy to find a gig after being out for 2 years.
You're telling me...
In July 2001 I quit my tech job of 8 years so I could take some time to de-stress and work on projects thinking I could just jump back into a job 6 months later. Of course, that timing was really bad. Since there weren't any tech jobs available, in the Fall of 2002 I decided to go back to school and get a masters. We had a few months in 2003 where I made just enough money to get by by going to the Goodwill outlet store and buying books that could be sold online for a profit - Goodwill got wise to that arbitrage and started their own online store which kind of put an end to that. Had a few contract jobs in there that lasted anywhere from 4 to 6 months, even had a summer internship (at age 40! That interview was interesting), but it wasn't until 2006 that I found something permanent again. Fortunately we had paid off our house back in 1999 otherwise it would've been even scarier.
> unemployed burning through my savings.
did that include retirement savings? Are you behind or on track for when you're inevitably too old to work?
did that include retirement savings? Are you behind or on track for when you're inevitably too old to work?
In fact, I touched only cash in the bank, I never sold any stocks, nor I ever touched the pension (not that I believe in pension too much, but I also can’t withdraw it without paying a hefty penalty).
Being “on track” is kind of an illusion to me. I believe it’s impossible to plan for more than 2-3 years ahead, let alone 20. I live below my means, invest as much as I can while finding a healthy balance between enjoying the moment and planning for the future.
Being “on track” is kind of an illusion to me. I believe it’s impossible to plan for more than 2-3 years ahead, let alone 20. I live below my means, invest as much as I can while finding a healthy balance between enjoying the moment and planning for the future.
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Don't quit your job to start something. Start something on the side. Spending down $80,000 in savings is a massive L.
a massive L to me is living your life by not taking risks because you are more comfortable counting your money beans and watching the compounding interest
You can take risks and also not spend $80k.
There are endless ways to do it. A way I did it was I moved to a cheaper country, started a business, learned a new language, met new friends, and eventually started a family.
Spending $80k in Montreal is the opposite of risk taking.
Perhaps if there was much to show for it, you would have a point. This guy did a lot right, has friends, is physically active, but none of that required spending down $80k.
There are endless ways to do it. A way I did it was I moved to a cheaper country, started a business, learned a new language, met new friends, and eventually started a family.
Spending $80k in Montreal is the opposite of risk taking.
Perhaps if there was much to show for it, you would have a point. This guy did a lot right, has friends, is physically active, but none of that required spending down $80k.
spending 80k in montreal sounds so much fun, are you kidding me? that place is in touch with its death drive.
jokes aside, sounds like both you and him have valid ways to spend your money. i honestly don't care which is right because either way you're gonna spend that 80k and will ultimately end up dead.
jokes aside, sounds like both you and him have valid ways to spend your money. i honestly don't care which is right because either way you're gonna spend that 80k and will ultimately end up dead.
Yeah, I don't get why people are praising this idea, it's a huge risk to take. If you don't have a safety net to catch yourself, don't do this!
What if your job sucks so much energy out of you, it's even hard to imagine to do something on the side?
job, family and more. i hire a helper for the housework so that i can get more time for myself. but i live in a country where such helpers are cheap. couldn't do that in europe.
Get a new job.
Someone else in this thread said it well. If you're unable to pipeline for a new job, you'll definitely be unable to pipeline to get sales.
Someone else in this thread said it well. If you're unable to pipeline for a new job, you'll definitely be unable to pipeline to get sales.
I mean, he did have a safety net and he squandered it.
$80,000 is a great down payment in most places of the USA. You could buy a large country home with a pool and a view in most places of the world with that money.
I like risk takers, but quitting your job and spending all that money isn't actually a risk, it's just kinda lazy.
I'm not trying to be mean. This guy's obviously doing a lot right. He has friends, he's physically active, he has hobbies. But none of these things requires spending down $80k with effectively $0 in income.
Maybe he reads this comment and it lights a fire under his ass. 2 years is too long to get going, bro. You gotta dial in, move faster, and make money in a few weeks tops, or just get a job and slow burn on the side.
$80,000 is a great down payment in most places of the USA. You could buy a large country home with a pool and a view in most places of the world with that money.
I like risk takers, but quitting your job and spending all that money isn't actually a risk, it's just kinda lazy.
I'm not trying to be mean. This guy's obviously doing a lot right. He has friends, he's physically active, he has hobbies. But none of these things requires spending down $80k with effectively $0 in income.
Maybe he reads this comment and it lights a fire under his ass. 2 years is too long to get going, bro. You gotta dial in, move faster, and make money in a few weeks tops, or just get a job and slow burn on the side.
Shout out to the low-FODMAP diet. I did that last year after having several months of abdominal pain and discomfort, and was stunned at how quickly a change in diet could solve these seemingly chronic symptoms. At the end of the second day I told my wife I couldn't remember the last time I felt so good. I'd recommend trying it for a few days to pretty much anybody, because doing it can't hurt, and who knows? It might make you feel better. It's not intended to be a long-term thing anyway, more of a diagnostic tool to help you learn about your body.
I was low-fodmap for YEARS (a little onion on something would trigger an emergency bathroom situation for me...) . but now FODZYME means I even make onion jelly for my burgers with zero discomfort. it costs about a dollar per serving and you have to put it on after cooking (heat denatures it or something) but it is truly a game-changer. im not affiliated in any way except I just ordered another bottle.
I did that, sort of, pre-pandemic.
IBM did a restructuring of my division in mid-2018 and I got RIFed. I pulled UI for 6 months and then lived off of my savings for a while - I looked at it as a mini-retirement. it was really nice, and made me appreciate work more (I'd been getting burnout from the IBM job).
when it was time to look for work again, the pandemic hit and I had a few tough months. I onboarded at a place mid-2020 and am still employed at the same place to this day. cant say I feel valued by the employer but I enjoy my job, it's a bit less stressful than my previous job.
IBM did a restructuring of my division in mid-2018 and I got RIFed. I pulled UI for 6 months and then lived off of my savings for a while - I looked at it as a mini-retirement. it was really nice, and made me appreciate work more (I'd been getting burnout from the IBM job).
when it was time to look for work again, the pandemic hit and I had a few tough months. I onboarded at a place mid-2020 and am still employed at the same place to this day. cant say I feel valued by the employer but I enjoy my job, it's a bit less stressful than my previous job.
I'm in network security and I want to quit so badly. I feel trapped in a job and team dynamic I don't like. I own my truck and have $275k in liquid assets.
I've been thinking of quitting with the assumption that my job skills will still be relevant in two or three years and that I have strong social skills that help stand out and a crowded worker field.
I just want to take care of some long-standing tasks, clean out my house, and enjoy waking up each day.
I've been thinking of quitting with the assumption that my job skills will still be relevant in two or three years and that I have strong social skills that help stand out and a crowded worker field.
I just want to take care of some long-standing tasks, clean out my house, and enjoy waking up each day.
I would recommend going and interviewing and changing companies. Get anyone else to hire you, it's better than zero income, and then you can figure out if it's the culture of your company bothering you.
Product launch when will you launch demo startup VC! VC! Demo product launch eat sleep code repeat cringe what's your stack hacker congrats on the launch website just a website not working at NASA just crud crud crud standup grooming review retro LinkedIn engineering@fuckly so excited to share! Occam's razor
Crazy to me that some people in the comments believe that 80k$ dollar is peanuts. Even in Germany I could easily live with that for more than 5 years.
If I had that kind of money lying around I would move to another country, pay for my whole education, learn a new language and still have enough money for multiple full-time start-up attempts.
If I had that kind of money lying around I would move to another country, pay for my whole education, learn a new language and still have enough money for multiple full-time start-up attempts.
Cost of living in the US is very high. HN skews towards the SV crowd. $80k isn't even a year of rent for many here. If you instead bought a home recently in SV, $80k wouldn't even get you halfway through the year.
There's a reason people get paid $400k+/yr in SV. The place is expensive and you need to keep people there somehow.
There's a reason people get paid $400k+/yr in SV. The place is expensive and you need to keep people there somehow.
> $80k isn’t even a year of rent for many here.
$80k is more than the median annual rent on a three-bedroom house in San Francisco; if its "not even a year of rent", even in the "SV crowd", that's because of lavish personal choices, not location-based necessity.
> There’s a reason people get paid $400k+/yr in SV.
Yes, because the jobs paying that are highly selective and there is lots of competition for talent. The cost of living in SV is a consequence of the concentration of high-paying jobs, not its cause.
$80k is more than the median annual rent on a three-bedroom house in San Francisco; if its "not even a year of rent", even in the "SV crowd", that's because of lavish personal choices, not location-based necessity.
> There’s a reason people get paid $400k+/yr in SV.
Yes, because the jobs paying that are highly selective and there is lots of competition for talent. The cost of living in SV is a consequence of the concentration of high-paying jobs, not its cause.
I do wonder what's keeping people there long term.
With that amount of money you can have an amazing life in so many places on this earth, and these people definitely have the resources to do that. Have these people never experienced life abroad? Quality of life is much higher elsewhere.
With that amount of money you can have an amazing life in so many places on this earth, and these people definitely have the resources to do that. Have these people never experienced life abroad? Quality of life is much higher elsewhere.
This is the tech equivalent of ‘my year of rest and relaxation’, enjoyable to read with talk of sports and projects. I think I will try this after my current job runs its course.
I'm going through a very similar thing for 2 years now. All I can say is that I don't wanna work for a company anymore, specially a FANG like setup.
I have some friends who work, sometimes they work remotely from my studio and when they do zoom meetings, oh man, ugh...
I have some friends who work, sometimes they work remotely from my studio and when they do zoom meetings, oh man, ugh...
2 years living in a big city enjoying entrepreneurship, hacking, socializing, music, sports, climbing, triathlons – all without the shackles of a 9-5 office job – sounds like a dream. Resourceful people find ways to pay their bills, and I'm sure you will as well. Best of luck!
This is a good example of why entrepreneurs, founders, and investors should make a lot of money. Frequently, they fail, or go for years making very little. Starting a successful business is incredibly hard and I wish shilin (the person who wrote the article) the best.
I mean, or it heavily restricts the pool of founders to mostly those who already have enough wealth such that they won't be homeless.
I don't see why a safety net wouldn't mitigate this risk in the first place, which would then allow for more people to take these risks and come up with great ideas as well
I don't see why a safety net wouldn't mitigate this risk in the first place, which would then allow for more people to take these risks and come up with great ideas as well
Thanks for the honesty dude. I got fired earlier this year.
I have been working on personal projects since.
I have personal savings to last for around 3-4 years.
Lately I have been stressing a lot, thinking about what would happen if I fail to make a single penny in upcoming years.
Reading your post was a breath of fresh air.
I have been working on personal projects since.
I have personal savings to last for around 3-4 years.
Lately I have been stressing a lot, thinking about what would happen if I fail to make a single penny in upcoming years.
Reading your post was a breath of fresh air.
(I'll nest my thought here, as there's some relevance to your position)
I'm looking a long way back to when I was in your position : I got fired about 10 years ago, after unrealistic expectations and mental health burnout led to me making regrettable statements to executives.
The entire experience and time since is far too large to encompass in a post. But perhaps my biggest takeaway after all this time is that most people waste a great, great deal of money frivolously. Having even an average income, more often than not, leads to a lifestyle where it's standard to buy a $50 version of an everyday item because it has a certain stamp and shiny packaging, instead of the $10 one that frugal people use. Going to the food markets with a comfortable income is a thoughtless experience of filling bags with items you like the look of, regardless of price or purpose. Tens of thousands are dropped on a whim for a change of travel-box (car). An executive spends more on daily coffee than I do on my total coffee+breakfast+lunch. The income finds a way to be spent, but the experience isn't necessarily that different.
I'll indulge in another edit-in point. Home economics. It used to be a school subject. People thought it was about cooking, and sewing. Millions of mothers and grandmothers from past generations know that basic cooking skills actually = a lot of money in the bank. The best food you ever ate, at half the cost, in perpetuity. Concepts like these, where you trade a % of your time for directly applicable, $-winning skills (as opposed to using salary to pay others) is a key necessity of living sustainably outside the traditional 40-hour-week employment system.
The best part is when you realise it's all the same. You'll job Here, or you'll job There. Everybody does 24hrs of something per day, and if you're smart, you WILL find your way to comfort. Perhaps on surprisingly less money than you thought. It will just take time and persistence.
And if not, well, the traditional job market always wants smart people too, sooner or later.
I'm looking a long way back to when I was in your position : I got fired about 10 years ago, after unrealistic expectations and mental health burnout led to me making regrettable statements to executives.
The entire experience and time since is far too large to encompass in a post. But perhaps my biggest takeaway after all this time is that most people waste a great, great deal of money frivolously. Having even an average income, more often than not, leads to a lifestyle where it's standard to buy a $50 version of an everyday item because it has a certain stamp and shiny packaging, instead of the $10 one that frugal people use. Going to the food markets with a comfortable income is a thoughtless experience of filling bags with items you like the look of, regardless of price or purpose. Tens of thousands are dropped on a whim for a change of travel-box (car). An executive spends more on daily coffee than I do on my total coffee+breakfast+lunch. The income finds a way to be spent, but the experience isn't necessarily that different.
I'll indulge in another edit-in point. Home economics. It used to be a school subject. People thought it was about cooking, and sewing. Millions of mothers and grandmothers from past generations know that basic cooking skills actually = a lot of money in the bank. The best food you ever ate, at half the cost, in perpetuity. Concepts like these, where you trade a % of your time for directly applicable, $-winning skills (as opposed to using salary to pay others) is a key necessity of living sustainably outside the traditional 40-hour-week employment system.
The best part is when you realise it's all the same. You'll job Here, or you'll job There. Everybody does 24hrs of something per day, and if you're smart, you WILL find your way to comfort. Perhaps on surprisingly less money than you thought. It will just take time and persistence.
And if not, well, the traditional job market always wants smart people too, sooner or later.
I took over a year off working on a project before I joined another company. Never made any money, but in retrospect I see that I could have made it work in 2-3 years, but the stress would have interfered. Wish I could be more chill, but money stresses me out. Getting close to do it again, but this time I'm fairly close to being financially independent at a barebones lifestyle. I mean, with 22 years of living expenses saved I should be fine right? Right? I should be able to make some money at SOME point. But the reason I have 22 years of expenses is because I'm neurotic about money...
I wonder if a part-time remote job coupled with full time traveling on a budget would have been a more sustainable, enjoyable and productive approach. Hanging with pals in Montreal is cool but it's expensive and not very productive.
Everybody's life is different but if I have to do something similar this will be my strategy:
- Move to a low cost place where other indiehackers go: thailand, bali. - Start living in a cheap hostel with other indiehackers - Copy an existing app with lot of users and something that interest me - Start with the lowest price possible. Keep on adding features and introducing expensive plans - Non stop marketing on X, FB, Insta, reddit etc
As soon as you leave your job it is a ticking clock. Every minute is important. I know mental sanity is important but life of entrepreneur is not best one if you want one. It is risky. It is a grind.
- Move to a low cost place where other indiehackers go: thailand, bali. - Start living in a cheap hostel with other indiehackers - Copy an existing app with lot of users and something that interest me - Start with the lowest price possible. Keep on adding features and introducing expensive plans - Non stop marketing on X, FB, Insta, reddit etc
As soon as you leave your job it is a ticking clock. Every minute is important. I know mental sanity is important but life of entrepreneur is not best one if you want one. It is risky. It is a grind.
Is Bali still cheap? I heard is was a mess now.
OP, imagine you live in EU. You could get unemployment support payments + rent payment from social security, for a year at minimum.
I thought you have somewhat similar social security in Canada, no?
There's unemployment insurance but only if you're laid off.
I was/am paycheck to paycheck, if I didn't have so much debt I could get by. I was working at AmazonFC, then driving uber eats (Uber makes more) and donating plasma. I was able to make $5-6K/mo granted I was working a lot eg. up to 80 hrs, at least 1 job everyday and I was not paying taxes yet on the side income. I do pay taxes by year.
Edit: thankfully after a year I got a new job, contract role. I have experience but no degree so harder for me.
Edit: thankfully after a year I got a new job, contract role. I have experience but no degree so harder for me.
I recommend this to anyone who has not yet had kids (unless you don't plan to). It's the only opportunity you'll get (well until your kids are finished college)
I've taken a similar path:
I probably will continue bouncing back and forth for the rest of my career.
I probably will continue bouncing back and forth for the rest of my career.
To the author: Thank you for this blogpost. I'm in a difficult situation myself and your writeup helped me reflect. I wish you all the best.
The new generation thinks your job should be fun and interesting, but that's rare and a luxury. I see young coworkers leave an excellent job after months, often less than 6 months even. It used to be that I would not even interview candidates who had less than 2 years in any job on their resume - it was the industry's standard. Now it's rare to find somebody who has had 2 years in any job - this is beyond pathetic! Entrepreneurship is different than self-experimentation. If you have a killer idea, if you've done the market analysis, and the business plan - ok, great - quit your job! But to leave a decent job to play entrepreneur - that's pretty irresponsible! Stoicism is extinct!
For the author, you probably have IBS.
I have similar symptoms, and basically I can't eat anything with Peppers or Chilies. The whole fruiting family. So no paprika. You would be absolutely floored to find out how many things paprika is in. Basically every flavour of chip you like. Curries often have them too.
I have similar symptoms, and basically I can't eat anything with Peppers or Chilies. The whole fruiting family. So no paprika. You would be absolutely floored to find out how many things paprika is in. Basically every flavour of chip you like. Curries often have them too.
Expanding on this, OP, please see a GI doctor. These could also be signs of much worse things you want to catch early.
Other considerations aside -- Given the difficulties in the tech job market over the past couple of years, I highly doubt most people who click through this headline will relate to the story of a guy who _decided_ to quit with 2+ years of living expenses saved up.
I wonder how much it would last in a 3rd word country, I live in Colombia with 800$ quite comfortably.
A few years back I got a nice severance and took some time off, but looking back on it now I do regret not trying to get a job sooner. It would have been so nice just to have that money behind me in the bank while still bringing more in.
> I used to think that I overspent. That my groceries could have been cheaper. That I could have eaten out or traveled less. Then a few months ago, I went on NomadList and found out that the average living cost in Montreal is $3,750/mo. Considering that I spent the first year in Ottawa/Toronto, where the cost of living is even higher, my spending habits turned out not that bad after all. I’m not just average — I’m slightly better!
This philosophy may not be ideal for your circumstances. You already knew you had limited funds and no income. "Slightly better than average" is overspending.
This philosophy may not be ideal for your circumstances. You already knew you had limited funds and no income. "Slightly better than average" is overspending.
I've been there. Some advice.
So you found yourself with some safety net and are contemplating reinventing yourself in some way. Maybe working on a side project, or supplementing your skillset by learning something new.
My first and top advice is to move to a place where just breathing and thinking is cheap. Travel if you can (i.e. you're young, have no kids, no relationships, no obligations). The slow burn will alleviate the stress and the need to precipitate a decision. Nomadlist, Numbeo, and the numerous nomad blogs are your friends. Start working on your projects from there. Come back home when you have some feelers moving.
Second. If your runway is only a year or two, prioritize acquiring a skill that'll make it easy to find work by the end of the run. Take a course on something trendy or valuable. If you choose to work on a project, also consider it the demo you'll eventually present to companies you'll interview at if things don't pan out. If you have 3 or 4 years, consider that you actually only have 1 to get something up and running.
Third. Don't be too ambitious with your first project. Aim to build something that can sustain living in a place where it's cheap to just breathe and think.
Good luck.
So you found yourself with some safety net and are contemplating reinventing yourself in some way. Maybe working on a side project, or supplementing your skillset by learning something new.
My first and top advice is to move to a place where just breathing and thinking is cheap. Travel if you can (i.e. you're young, have no kids, no relationships, no obligations). The slow burn will alleviate the stress and the need to precipitate a decision. Nomadlist, Numbeo, and the numerous nomad blogs are your friends. Start working on your projects from there. Come back home when you have some feelers moving.
Second. If your runway is only a year or two, prioritize acquiring a skill that'll make it easy to find work by the end of the run. Take a course on something trendy or valuable. If you choose to work on a project, also consider it the demo you'll eventually present to companies you'll interview at if things don't pan out. If you have 3 or 4 years, consider that you actually only have 1 to get something up and running.
Third. Don't be too ambitious with your first project. Aim to build something that can sustain living in a place where it's cheap to just breathe and think.
Good luck.
Also, carefully consider the costs. It's usually pretty hard to get the first 80-100k; burning your principal to 0 probably doesn't make sense. If it wasn't hard for you, that income stream is worth a lot, so you should carefully consider whether you're burning any bridges.
If you're not burning bridges or burning principal to 0, that's a complete reframing of the situation.
Wow 80k in 2 years is not that much. I am in my 3rd year in bay area. Luckily I had invested and have zero debt so able to survive. Honestly op may not want to hear this but “music, sports” and this line “Once a week, we play board games, cook food, or do coworking sessions. Living with others is not always easy, but it is fun.“ does not tell me you have any focus on getting job. You need to be too busy to even worry about food. What is all this ? You joined a climbing club ? How do you have time ?
What's your plan to make food/rent money for the next year? Sounds like you currently have $68 and need to pay rent/eat?
I wonder how the dating world would go, given he's divorced, even before running out of money. I.e.: I think most women would immediately reject someone unemployed. (Even if he had money) Taking a risk like this while in a relationship is probably fine, but trying to start one with a stranger is likely to be significantly more difficult than while employed.
Being single for a couple years isn’t the end of the world. Besides, he’s in the climbing community, which (at least from the outside) appears to be chock full of barely-employed attractive men and women who all sleep with each other.
I have more experience with this than most of the HN crowd. I've not been working for 2.5 years. Being unemployed is considered unattractive but if you spin it - it's not too bad. I spin it as, "I did startups in SV, one of them went public. I have plenty of money." Most everyone gets it but some women are put off by it. I'm literally taking time away from SV because I'm on the hunt for a wife. I couldn't find one after being in SV for 8 years and so now I'm in NYC where at least I can actually meet women. I've traveled a lot as well but I don't recommend that as a way to meet your future wife. Dating culture outside of the US is very different and very few women will be interested in dating someone who is traveling around. There are also other issues like being used for a green card and so on. Sleeping/dating around casually isn't as much of a thing in other countries and it's a necessity if you're going to try to form an intense bond with someone.
Overall, I think for a tech worker, the real issue is that so many women will not date a tech worker to begin with because of the low social status associated with dating a tech worker. I've met thousands at this point and it's honestly made me regret joining this industry. I do not advocate for it at all.
I think the bigger hurdle with dating beyond that anyway is physical attraction. The bar for that is really high now. Being a rock climber only attracts certain types because rock climbing tends to have more lanky builds. You better hope you're attracted to women who only want to date slim built men. That is a niche woman. As well, you can't escape your baseline genetics like height, facial attractiveness, etc. People talk about rock climbers sleeping with each other all the time but it's mostly men who are rock climbing. There are some women but the ratio is 3:1 - which means you're 2/3 chance of not getting anywhere.
Overall, I think for a tech worker, the real issue is that so many women will not date a tech worker to begin with because of the low social status associated with dating a tech worker. I've met thousands at this point and it's honestly made me regret joining this industry. I do not advocate for it at all.
I think the bigger hurdle with dating beyond that anyway is physical attraction. The bar for that is really high now. Being a rock climber only attracts certain types because rock climbing tends to have more lanky builds. You better hope you're attracted to women who only want to date slim built men. That is a niche woman. As well, you can't escape your baseline genetics like height, facial attractiveness, etc. People talk about rock climbers sleeping with each other all the time but it's mostly men who are rock climbing. There are some women but the ratio is 3:1 - which means you're 2/3 chance of not getting anywhere.
The amount of sexism and stereotypes about women is astounding. I don’t feel you even see women as actual human beings, damn.
Is it sexism to acknowledge that we have 80%+ men in tech? Is it sexism to acknowledge fields like nursing and elementary teaching have 80%+ women?
You're free to exist in the real world rather than some third wave feminism utopia.
You're free to exist in the real world rather than some third wave feminism utopia.
You’re making a strawman. I agree that those examples are not sexism but your post has very little to with employment percentages and more to do dating prospects and how women behave in the dating market; I think that’s what the person was talking a about.
That is correct
I mean you're not unemployed, you're retired.
I didn't notice a difference personally during a long unemployment stint. Not being employed lends a lot of free time to focus on self development and to be an interesting person which is beneficial to dating. Also, an unemployed partner can do a lot of cooking and cleaning. I used large chunks of my time to plan and create elaborate meals for working partners and keep co-living spaces spotless and organized. This is substantially more challenging for me personally to do with full time employment.
Just have to find someone else that’s unemployed? Or someone that doesn’t care? If there’s men that don’t care a woman is unemployed the reverse must be true too.
The way I see it, the more disadvantages you have the more you need to make up for it with charisma. That's how I do it anyway. Charisma is trainable. It's not easy to train, but it ultimately is trainable.
I voluntarily left the workforce a few years ago, and I'm fortunate that my wife, a teacher, has a solid job earning over $100k a year. While that’s not a huge amount, it’s enough for us to live comfortably. What we discovered during this transition was eye-opening: most of my income had been going toward discretionary spending, much of it wasteful. Now, even though I only generate $200–$500 a month in passive income from a few books I sell on Amazon (gotta love passive income), we’re actually living better than before. This is thanks to paying off debt, living more within our means, and both of us feeling more personally fulfilled.
So, what do I do now? * Household management: I handle cooking (about half), cleaning, shopping, finances, repairs—basically all the day-to-day stuff. * Supporting my wife: I act as her personal assistant. I write emails, grants, and curriculum; create her presentations and visuals; and handle whatever else she needs so she can focus on teaching. With my help, she’s raised over $100k in two years to support her program—not too shabby! * Pet parent: I’m a proud cat and dog dad. Side projects: I’m working on a web app that I hope will generate income someday. * Writing a novel: For the first time, I’ve moved past the endless planning stage and am actually writing! I’ve also got more ideas in the works. * Tabletop game design: I have about ten tabletop games in various stages of development, and a few are done. I’d love to get at least one published. A friend and I even created a tabletop game that teaches condensed matter physics (CMP 101 level) with funding from an NSF grant. It’s more of a euro-game than an edu-game, and we’re looking to publish it and maybe turn it into an app. * Self-care: Decades of work, especially in startups, took a toll on me emotionally and physically. Today, I'm more organized, more productive, more focused, and more motivated than ever. I have a lot of work to do to repair my health, but I'm working on it.
What I’m finally able to do: * Engage in emotionally rewarding activities instead of draining ones. * Pursue personal goals and dreams I’ve always put on hold. * Channel my energy into supporting my wife, which has made her happier and more fulfilled in her career—a first for her. * Be the master of my own destiny rather than living on someone else’s terms.
I do feel some anxiety about putting the financial burden on my wife. She understands and values the contributions I make to our household and her career, so there’s no resentment on her part. Still, I worry about what would happen if she lost her job or couldn’t work. I cope by focusing on the fact that the things I’m pursuing can generate income. If I channel my energy positively and healthily into these pursuits, I believe they eventually will.
So, what do I do now? * Household management: I handle cooking (about half), cleaning, shopping, finances, repairs—basically all the day-to-day stuff. * Supporting my wife: I act as her personal assistant. I write emails, grants, and curriculum; create her presentations and visuals; and handle whatever else she needs so she can focus on teaching. With my help, she’s raised over $100k in two years to support her program—not too shabby! * Pet parent: I’m a proud cat and dog dad. Side projects: I’m working on a web app that I hope will generate income someday. * Writing a novel: For the first time, I’ve moved past the endless planning stage and am actually writing! I’ve also got more ideas in the works. * Tabletop game design: I have about ten tabletop games in various stages of development, and a few are done. I’d love to get at least one published. A friend and I even created a tabletop game that teaches condensed matter physics (CMP 101 level) with funding from an NSF grant. It’s more of a euro-game than an edu-game, and we’re looking to publish it and maybe turn it into an app. * Self-care: Decades of work, especially in startups, took a toll on me emotionally and physically. Today, I'm more organized, more productive, more focused, and more motivated than ever. I have a lot of work to do to repair my health, but I'm working on it.
What I’m finally able to do: * Engage in emotionally rewarding activities instead of draining ones. * Pursue personal goals and dreams I’ve always put on hold. * Channel my energy into supporting my wife, which has made her happier and more fulfilled in her career—a first for her. * Be the master of my own destiny rather than living on someone else’s terms.
I do feel some anxiety about putting the financial burden on my wife. She understands and values the contributions I make to our household and her career, so there’s no resentment on her part. Still, I worry about what would happen if she lost her job or couldn’t work. I cope by focusing on the fact that the things I’m pursuing can generate income. If I channel my energy positively and healthily into these pursuits, I believe they eventually will.
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Similar story for me in 2017-19 era. Ran out of money never thought I would work again, picked up a consulting contract, parlayed it into more, have since succeeded to the point of being discreet about it. I've come to believe opportunity finds us.
If you can be fit and pursue arts or hobbies, you're already doing what people think they need to be wealthy to do, and most wealthy people are boring anyway.
Run a CRM pipeline to get a job and you will have one in a couple of months, then use the stability as a way to find customers for your next thing. If you can't run a pipeline for yourself, you won't be able to do it for a startup anyway. You're fine. Good luck.
If you can be fit and pursue arts or hobbies, you're already doing what people think they need to be wealthy to do, and most wealthy people are boring anyway.
Run a CRM pipeline to get a job and you will have one in a couple of months, then use the stability as a way to find customers for your next thing. If you can't run a pipeline for yourself, you won't be able to do it for a startup anyway. You're fine. Good luck.
Highly agree with your comment, just wondering what you mean with "CRM pipeline to get a job"?
it's the way to get a job, i didn't think there was another way. the way a sales funnel works is you start with a pile of company names as "leads" you have or want to work for. they are in a spreadsheet that has the columns "company"," applied", "contacted", "responded" "interview1" "interviewN" "offer" "closed" "declined" sort the companies in order of preference and approach them in that order giving the ones you really want to work for a small head start over the others.
you figure out how to contact each one of them and spend your days moving each one through the stages in the spreadsheet and adding to the companies column until your situation changes. that's how people who get multiple offers get them. they use this to make them happen. if you have 10-20+ companies, there's always something you can be doing to get one of them over the line. I used the streak crm as a gmail plugin, but you can just use a spreadsheet.
you figure out how to contact each one of them and spend your days moving each one through the stages in the spreadsheet and adding to the companies column until your situation changes. that's how people who get multiple offers get them. they use this to make them happen. if you have 10-20+ companies, there's always something you can be doing to get one of them over the line. I used the streak crm as a gmail plugin, but you can just use a spreadsheet.
Are you looking for a job now? It seems the market is even tougher than it was a few years ago. I have built an app to scrape job listings directly from company websites if you're interested
I'm interested, how can I check it out?
https://www.unlistedjobs.com/
If you signup and want it free please just email me (listed on my profile). Currently asking $15/mo for the app
If you signup and want it free please just email me (listed on my profile). Currently asking $15/mo for the app
Check it out, but ~2020 saw where in the US could BUY a nice manufactured house, with a mortgage, for ~$300/month. Land? Some small rural communities have been falling in population and are eager for new people -- sooooo, land for the house might not be too much.
Be sure to have cell phone and Internet access and be not too far from a Walmart, a hospital, and, maybe, auto repair. In the US can get nice weather, usually not too hot or cold or too wet or dry, in the East at the latitude of, say, Kentucky.
In Maryland, Virginia, and DC, there is lots of Federal Civil Service employment, and the hiring is not based much on "who you know" but what you can do, education, experience.
Be sure to have cell phone and Internet access and be not too far from a Walmart, a hospital, and, maybe, auto repair. In the US can get nice weather, usually not too hot or cold or too wet or dry, in the East at the latitude of, say, Kentucky.
In Maryland, Virginia, and DC, there is lots of Federal Civil Service employment, and the hiring is not based much on "who you know" but what you can do, education, experience.
Let’s see if that last bit lasts after Jan 20
A very valuable lesson for me. So, I'll venture into entrepreneurship once I’ve saved a million dollars in cash—though, realistically, that might never happen.
Not sure, If he has option OP can ask his parents to help or live with them. Having zero balance in account is not a very good situation to be in.
Amateur... It's the 7th year of NEET for me :)
Accutane killed my stomach for a good while
Good read, thank you Sergei. Refreshingly honest and surprisingly inspiring. Good luck!
How about that guy who wrote graphing calculator? Or the guy who put zip in windows explorer?
Anxiety hits different when you have responsibilities (family, kids, dependents).
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This post makes no sense.
You're making fun of your readers.
Somewhere you have hidden money or people that will help you.
The end.
You're making fun of your readers.
Somewhere you have hidden money or people that will help you.
The end.
I'd love to do this - I have had so many ideas and just wanted to take a sabbatical to refocus after the corporate grind.
Unfortunately I need healthcare. An ACA plan cost me $1200/mo. over COVID when I was out of work for two months. It was a complete panic. Just mortgage, utilities, food, and healthcare was almost $3,500 a month. Throw in car insurance (because I'm American) and it was unsustainable. If there's one thing the ACA is - it's not affordable. A complete garbage program that has enabled health insurance companies to take our money by force.
I've realized there's no way I can do this. I missed my window when I was in college (because I was working - for healthcare). Now I'm condemned to suffer until I retire or die. A consummate worker drone shackled by literal bureaucratic bullshit.
Unfortunately I need healthcare. An ACA plan cost me $1200/mo. over COVID when I was out of work for two months. It was a complete panic. Just mortgage, utilities, food, and healthcare was almost $3,500 a month. Throw in car insurance (because I'm American) and it was unsustainable. If there's one thing the ACA is - it's not affordable. A complete garbage program that has enabled health insurance companies to take our money by force.
I've realized there's no way I can do this. I missed my window when I was in college (because I was working - for healthcare). Now I'm condemned to suffer until I retire or die. A consummate worker drone shackled by literal bureaucratic bullshit.
Reading through comments on living paycheck to paycheck was brutal as it sounds like many people here have no clue what really living paycheck to paycheck is like.
No, it doesn't mean you can still go out to eat and have a club membership. If you save nothing after you use up your entire paycheck going out to eat and paying for a gym membership , that means you aren't handling money well.
Sorry folks, but many of us here sound entitled. Having been poor and scrambled my way up, it was depressing reading.
No, it doesn't mean you can still go out to eat and have a club membership. If you save nothing after you use up your entire paycheck going out to eat and paying for a gym membership , that means you aren't handling money well.
Sorry folks, but many of us here sound entitled. Having been poor and scrambled my way up, it was depressing reading.
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Here is a good example of someone who shies away from responsibility for himself and others.
2 years time for what? To build something with other people? A partner, family, children?
Nope, just doing what brings him fun or fulfillment or whatnot...
I'm not saying it's bad to take care of yourself from time to time. But as a father of 5, I can definitely say that the best and most instructive moments in my life were definitely the ones where it wasn't about me but about people who were important to me.
And the money issue that most people seem to be talking about here: Go to work and earn money. That's life. It always has been. If people would only do what fulfills them, there would be no sewer workers or garbage collectors. Whenever you take advantage of a developed society, you always have a duty to give something back to it.
If there is not Time enough after a 8 hour shift to to what you want, you have a serious Problem.
2 years time for what? To build something with other people? A partner, family, children?
Nope, just doing what brings him fun or fulfillment or whatnot...
I'm not saying it's bad to take care of yourself from time to time. But as a father of 5, I can definitely say that the best and most instructive moments in my life were definitely the ones where it wasn't about me but about people who were important to me.
And the money issue that most people seem to be talking about here: Go to work and earn money. That's life. It always has been. If people would only do what fulfills them, there would be no sewer workers or garbage collectors. Whenever you take advantage of a developed society, you always have a duty to give something back to it.
If there is not Time enough after a 8 hour shift to to what you want, you have a serious Problem.
I totally disagree and don’t even know where to begin…
People are different. Some are just not “as resilient” as others. Some have mental issues. Some have other priorities in life. Some people are just overwhelmed when they have to focus on more than one thing (their own wellbeing) - which should and cannot be confused with selflessness.
Not everyone wants to accept the common conceptions of life. And that’s ok.
People are different. Some are just not “as resilient” as others. Some have mental issues. Some have other priorities in life. Some people are just overwhelmed when they have to focus on more than one thing (their own wellbeing) - which should and cannot be confused with selflessness.
Not everyone wants to accept the common conceptions of life. And that’s ok.
Some people might consider a family of 5 in the current climate to be a gross level of over consumption... Do you take responsibly for your actions here?
Nice write up. Don't listen to folks at jobs that will never "get it". I wish you good luck, left my last full-time job mid last year.
why isnt the WonderBook - Stories for Kids avaible for my device in google play?
Nobody is jobless. You either have a job or you don't need a job. If you need a job, then finding a job is your full time job. Do your marketing. Build your offerings (skills.) Slam your offerings against the market as much as possible to get feedback.
I couldn't imagine anyone wanting a job not finding one. At least in the US, there's industries hurting for skills shortages. We're also on the edge of a cliff of baby boomers retiring.
I couldn't imagine anyone wanting a job not finding one. At least in the US, there's industries hurting for skills shortages. We're also on the edge of a cliff of baby boomers retiring.
Getting a good job is hard - especially today.
Getting a low-salary one, unrelated to your skills, is fairly easy (e.g: waiter).
Getting a low-salary one, unrelated to your skills, is fairly easy (e.g: waiter).
May I introduce you to the New Orleans metropolitan area.
keep it up
cool
Try carnivore bro. Read the mind body prescription by John Sarno. Meditate 20 mins per day
Some clarification on the comments on unemployment in the Nordics .
The nordics arent really as inviting, socialist and helpful as many US interweebs might think.
Sweden and Denmark will only pay unemployment if you have unemployment insurance. Called A-kassa. It is very expensive and you have to have paid it for a year to be able to claim benefits. If you don´t pay A-kassa you will have the pleasure of having them spam you to reel you on 3-4 times a week.
The Swedes and Danes have the highest taxes in the world but are using the US medical insurace as a model for unemployment.
Really not the welfare system these two countries claim they have.
The benefits you get from the A-kassa are extremly low. Less than average rent for a 1 bedroom apartment. You can buy another really expensive insurance to get a little higher amount.
And even if it's an insurance you have paid for you will get hounded to get any job, the Danish authorities may send you to do pretty much menial job they demand to get you off the benefits. The Swedish are not as bad as the Danish in that regard.
The way to live unemployed in Denmark and Sweden is to get into the medical system. Get a doctor to sign you have some illness. Stress is probably 90% of the cases in Denmark.
Then you get a small amount montly, it has been pre covered by your tax money so you dont need to pay the extortionate A-kassa (unemployment insurance) and no one will hound you to take some excruciating job no one wants to do.
This setup btw benefits the ruling parties in Sweden and Denmark as they can claim unenployment is at an historic low. No one counts the people on, I suppose it could be called, disability.
Iceland is a little different. Unemployment is covered in your tax payments, it's not a private (it's not supposed to be profitable, but trust me, for the A-kassa it truly is ) insurance like Denmark and Sweden.
In Iceland you have to show proof that you are actively looking for work and you will be cut off from benefits for an x number of months after an x amount of time. Do not remember the exact setup.
Bizarrely the Icelandic system is a lot more fair and less cruel than the Swedish and Danish. All three pay out a very very very low amount of money though.
Now, coming from a point of bitterness. This medical loop is exploited as you wouldnt beleive in Sweden and Denmark. I have people in my vicinty proudly admitting they are on "stress" leave because some employer said something mean to them they didnt want to hear.
So the working dane and swede has to pay minimum 44% taxes of their salary to keep this sham going.
I pay an exruciating amount of taxes in the Nordic countries. Sweden and Denmark are the highest. Iceland a little less.
It pisses me off royally to see the tax money gamed in this way and this has turned me to voting for parties I never thought I would.
Social democrats are a poision, maybe they were useful 50 years ago but today they do enourmous damage to countries that offer tax payed welfare.
tldr;
You need savings in the Nordics too if you are going to quit your job. If you can get a doctor to sign a medical paper that claims you had to leave work because of stress, you can game the system and let the taxpayers pay for your hobbies for a few years.
The nordics arent really as inviting, socialist and helpful as many US interweebs might think.
Sweden and Denmark will only pay unemployment if you have unemployment insurance. Called A-kassa. It is very expensive and you have to have paid it for a year to be able to claim benefits. If you don´t pay A-kassa you will have the pleasure of having them spam you to reel you on 3-4 times a week.
The Swedes and Danes have the highest taxes in the world but are using the US medical insurace as a model for unemployment.
Really not the welfare system these two countries claim they have.
The benefits you get from the A-kassa are extremly low. Less than average rent for a 1 bedroom apartment. You can buy another really expensive insurance to get a little higher amount.
And even if it's an insurance you have paid for you will get hounded to get any job, the Danish authorities may send you to do pretty much menial job they demand to get you off the benefits. The Swedish are not as bad as the Danish in that regard.
The way to live unemployed in Denmark and Sweden is to get into the medical system. Get a doctor to sign you have some illness. Stress is probably 90% of the cases in Denmark.
Then you get a small amount montly, it has been pre covered by your tax money so you dont need to pay the extortionate A-kassa (unemployment insurance) and no one will hound you to take some excruciating job no one wants to do.
This setup btw benefits the ruling parties in Sweden and Denmark as they can claim unenployment is at an historic low. No one counts the people on, I suppose it could be called, disability.
Iceland is a little different. Unemployment is covered in your tax payments, it's not a private (it's not supposed to be profitable, but trust me, for the A-kassa it truly is ) insurance like Denmark and Sweden.
In Iceland you have to show proof that you are actively looking for work and you will be cut off from benefits for an x number of months after an x amount of time. Do not remember the exact setup.
Bizarrely the Icelandic system is a lot more fair and less cruel than the Swedish and Danish. All three pay out a very very very low amount of money though.
Now, coming from a point of bitterness. This medical loop is exploited as you wouldnt beleive in Sweden and Denmark. I have people in my vicinty proudly admitting they are on "stress" leave because some employer said something mean to them they didnt want to hear.
So the working dane and swede has to pay minimum 44% taxes of their salary to keep this sham going.
I pay an exruciating amount of taxes in the Nordic countries. Sweden and Denmark are the highest. Iceland a little less.
It pisses me off royally to see the tax money gamed in this way and this has turned me to voting for parties I never thought I would.
Social democrats are a poision, maybe they were useful 50 years ago but today they do enourmous damage to countries that offer tax payed welfare.
tldr;
You need savings in the Nordics too if you are going to quit your job. If you can get a doctor to sign a medical paper that claims you had to leave work because of stress, you can game the system and let the taxpayers pay for your hobbies for a few years.
Eric Bachman, this is your mom, and you, you are not my baby.
Did he try to get a job at all? Being from Canada and technical, I will say OP isn't trying enough.
https://digitalcareers.infosys.com/infosys/global-careers?lo...
https://ibegin.tcs.com/iBegin/jobs/search
https://www.epam.com/careers/job-listings?recruitingUrl=%2Fc...
https://digitalcareers.infosys.com/infosys/global-careers?lo...
https://ibegin.tcs.com/iBegin/jobs/search
https://www.epam.com/careers/job-listings?recruitingUrl=%2Fc...
I don't mean to be one of those people that shout "privilege" at every turn on the Internet, but most people with no savings and barely any income would be freaking out unless they had some family or support network to lean on, which I noticed any discussion of is suspiciously absent.