Ask HN: If you used to be socially awkward and shy, how did you improve?
567 comments
These comments make me feel like I'm getting old, which is weird to me. There are so many proactive comments that remind me of my 18 year old self.
Social awkwardness, for me and for a lot of people I know, sort of just vanished with age. - The same kind of weird, unexplainable, vicious attitude that passes for cool among teenagers and some early adults fades for most people. The people who still adhere to that code go off and form their own cliques and you just don't see them anymore. - Real adulthood is simpler socially. With personal stability (job, hobbies, network, etc.) and age you care less and less what people think and put less emphasis on what people think about you. - At the same time, you judge people less and less because, what does your judgment really matter? And when you judge people less you judge yourself less. - A lot of awkwardness is a function of trying hard to fit a social shape and failing. When you let go of most social expectations of yourself and others, in my experience mostly because of age and stability, you lose the awkwardness.
If you really need help with social anxiety I have heard that there are psychologists who are good at treating it, although I have never used one myself.
Take some comfort in knowing that it will probably pass with time.
Social awkwardness, for me and for a lot of people I know, sort of just vanished with age. - The same kind of weird, unexplainable, vicious attitude that passes for cool among teenagers and some early adults fades for most people. The people who still adhere to that code go off and form their own cliques and you just don't see them anymore. - Real adulthood is simpler socially. With personal stability (job, hobbies, network, etc.) and age you care less and less what people think and put less emphasis on what people think about you. - At the same time, you judge people less and less because, what does your judgment really matter? And when you judge people less you judge yourself less. - A lot of awkwardness is a function of trying hard to fit a social shape and failing. When you let go of most social expectations of yourself and others, in my experience mostly because of age and stability, you lose the awkwardness.
If you really need help with social anxiety I have heard that there are psychologists who are good at treating it, although I have never used one myself.
Take some comfort in knowing that it will probably pass with time.
I was watching Euphoria these days, and reading your comment reminded me of a thought I had watching that. School is like prison. People are forced to spend most of their living hours with one another for long periods of time. So like in prison, weird social dynamic develops itself. Once you're out of prison, everything is much smoother. You can simply exit any toxic situations.
The mention of prison is a cue to link PG's Nerds essay:
http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html
That essay was my first exposure to PG/YC/HN. At the time I was old enough that it felt like someone clearly articulating my past rather than giving me guidance for the future. I think I would have found it comforting in the 80s if it had been written then.
http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html
That essay was my first exposure to PG/YC/HN. At the time I was old enough that it felt like someone clearly articulating my past rather than giving me guidance for the future. I think I would have found it comforting in the 80s if it had been written then.
Can you exit toxic situations just like that? If you got a toxic workplace and the job market has been tough... it eerily starts to feel like school again.
The prison as a distilled form of the structure of most social institutions is a big idea in the work put forward by Michel Foucault
I agree with you. In school environment, i usually have more difficulty with things like hanging around with people, speaking in public (panic!!!),... Thinking of dropping because I am tired to always be the "guy who sucks" and crack under exam stress even if I am doing well when it comes to solve real problems.
That's contrary to everything I've heard about having a criminal record. Especially a felony, which is usually what prison is for.
>Take some comfort in knowing that it will probably pass with time.
I mean, it does pass with time, but it's not like you magically become less shy. For me it was the transition to college. I no longer had parents to order food for me, professors won't go out of their way to make sure you get homework in on time or even show up for class, schools don't just make up social events for you, etc. You find you gotta literally step outside your comfort zone because society very much does not care about you cooping up in your apartment building 24/7 (as long as you're paying).
And yes, to some extent it does help that the world metaphorically gets bigger in adult hood. When your social circle is a few hundreds people in grade school, their perception of you matters a lot. When in college it expands to thousands of people, 99% of which you'll never converse with, and larger still in society where you ironically feel more lonely than ever because very few people will come up to you to chat.
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I agree it will pass in time, but it's not just something you grow out of. You either get plenty of practive with adulthood, or you end up as a recluse that is deemed incompatitble with society. Fight or flight. If they didn't get that same practice I did, they have to undergo it now (or perhaps consult a therapist if the anxiety is truly that severe. Unlikely, but it very well could require some clinical solutions.).
It gets easier: https://youtu.be/S-ixV6nV0HU?t=22
I mean, it does pass with time, but it's not like you magically become less shy. For me it was the transition to college. I no longer had parents to order food for me, professors won't go out of their way to make sure you get homework in on time or even show up for class, schools don't just make up social events for you, etc. You find you gotta literally step outside your comfort zone because society very much does not care about you cooping up in your apartment building 24/7 (as long as you're paying).
And yes, to some extent it does help that the world metaphorically gets bigger in adult hood. When your social circle is a few hundreds people in grade school, their perception of you matters a lot. When in college it expands to thousands of people, 99% of which you'll never converse with, and larger still in society where you ironically feel more lonely than ever because very few people will come up to you to chat.
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I agree it will pass in time, but it's not just something you grow out of. You either get plenty of practive with adulthood, or you end up as a recluse that is deemed incompatitble with society. Fight or flight. If they didn't get that same practice I did, they have to undergo it now (or perhaps consult a therapist if the anxiety is truly that severe. Unlikely, but it very well could require some clinical solutions.).
It gets easier: https://youtu.be/S-ixV6nV0HU?t=22
Age has also brought a deeper understanding for me.
I was shy because I was very sensitive to loud noises and bright lights - they overwhelm me. Not in a psychological sense but in a raw sensory overload type way.
The gain on my brain is set quite high and the hustle and bustle of school completely overwhelmed me everyday, year after year.
That led me to believe I was socially completely incapable - which led to social anxiety. Once I was able to understand and not shame myself for needing quiet everything started to change.
I now know that I fear parties and pubs not because of the people so much as because of the overstimulation. The social anxiety is an extra layer over that - and that falls away with age and acceptance of my biological nature.
Do you lose the ability to think and speak in social settings? Like everything becomes utterly confusing? Does it not happen in more intimate gatherings - low light, small room only a few people even though they are strangers? Then you might be dealing not with social anxiety, but with overstimulation.
Overstimulation cannot be beaten, it is a raw innate characteristic of your mind, great for some things bad for others.
I was shy because I was very sensitive to loud noises and bright lights - they overwhelm me. Not in a psychological sense but in a raw sensory overload type way.
The gain on my brain is set quite high and the hustle and bustle of school completely overwhelmed me everyday, year after year.
That led me to believe I was socially completely incapable - which led to social anxiety. Once I was able to understand and not shame myself for needing quiet everything started to change.
I now know that I fear parties and pubs not because of the people so much as because of the overstimulation. The social anxiety is an extra layer over that - and that falls away with age and acceptance of my biological nature.
Do you lose the ability to think and speak in social settings? Like everything becomes utterly confusing? Does it not happen in more intimate gatherings - low light, small room only a few people even though they are strangers? Then you might be dealing not with social anxiety, but with overstimulation.
Overstimulation cannot be beaten, it is a raw innate characteristic of your mind, great for some things bad for others.
@HEmanZ Your point about reducing judgement resonates with me.
I noticed that I rarely think negatively of people who appear awkward, and always admire those who appear to accept their awkwardness and move on rather than fighting hard to rid themselves of it for the sake of others' preferences.
Recognizing that I don't judge other people's awkward moments allows me to apply that same acceptance to my own imperfections. I view myself through my own eyes, not what I think others see when they look at me.
Sometimes I have embarrassing moments that high school me (I'm finishing undergrad now) would have probably cried over, but now I give myself a big mental hug, have a laugh-- there is always humor to be found--and then move on. The more I accept my rough edges, the easier it gets to move on to things that are more important than my lack of social graces. And I think this nonjudgmental attitude is actually making those painfully awkward moments much, much rarer.
I could try very hard to change my behavior and stop being awkward. Maybe I would never have an awkward moment again. But unless I relax the immature impulse to judge, I would always be haunted by memories of those past failures. Letting go of those harsh judgements lightened my load a whole lot more than any behavioral change regime ever could.
I noticed that I rarely think negatively of people who appear awkward, and always admire those who appear to accept their awkwardness and move on rather than fighting hard to rid themselves of it for the sake of others' preferences.
Recognizing that I don't judge other people's awkward moments allows me to apply that same acceptance to my own imperfections. I view myself through my own eyes, not what I think others see when they look at me.
Sometimes I have embarrassing moments that high school me (I'm finishing undergrad now) would have probably cried over, but now I give myself a big mental hug, have a laugh-- there is always humor to be found--and then move on. The more I accept my rough edges, the easier it gets to move on to things that are more important than my lack of social graces. And I think this nonjudgmental attitude is actually making those painfully awkward moments much, much rarer.
I could try very hard to change my behavior and stop being awkward. Maybe I would never have an awkward moment again. But unless I relax the immature impulse to judge, I would always be haunted by memories of those past failures. Letting go of those harsh judgements lightened my load a whole lot more than any behavioral change regime ever could.
I'm only in my early 20s, and the social awkwardness I sometimes felt in high school is mostly gone. I mean sure, there are still some awkward moments here and there. There probably will always be those few times. Unless you're a robot, you'll never not feel anxiety.
I concur though: I'm not even "old" at all, just a couple years out of high school, and speaking to people even in difficult situations feels a lot easier. So +1 to this answer. Getting older tremendously helps.
I concur though: I'm not even "old" at all, just a couple years out of high school, and speaking to people even in difficult situations feels a lot easier. So +1 to this answer. Getting older tremendously helps.
Your experience still allows two interpretations: it could be either a consequence of getting older, or a consequence of no longer being at high school.
Maybe we shouldn't take shyness for given, but ask what causes it... so that we can avoid that thing, when possible.
One of the causes is people who bully you, or perhaps they don't bully you at the current moment, but they make it obvious that they could if you did something they don't approve of. So you spend a lot of thought worrying about not atracting their attention.
Another cause is lack of actually useful things to do, so people only compare themselves based on their popularity. If you suck at popularity contests, you are at the bottom of the social ladder. There is no way to compensate your lack of popularity by e.g. doing something that matters, because no one cares about that.
If you are adult and make enough money, you can make these problems go away. (Though you need to realize that you have this option; otherwise your own mind can keep you in prison for years.) Move away from the assholes; find friends who are nice. If something bad happens at your job, quit and find another one. Do things that you consider meaningful, and spend time with people who share your values.
And then at some moment you may look at the kids who were cool at high school, and realize that many of them turned out to be quite dysfunctional in real life. The greatest rebels have overdosed on drugs and died. The former playboys are divorced, and now they need to work two jobs in order to pay the child support. The ones who said the most impressive things... they still keep saying the same things, except no one is impressed anymore, because they see it as empty bullshit. The former shy kids are the ones doing interesting things now.
If you do something good, you get rewarded. It may be a social reward, from people who care about the same things. If you are lucky, there is also a financial reward. You realize the haters don't really matter; the dogs bark but the caravan goes on, and you are now a part of a caravan.
Suddenly, there is nothing to be shy about. Sure, there are still people who dislike you and dislike the things you do, etc. They just don't matter anymore.
One of the causes is people who bully you, or perhaps they don't bully you at the current moment, but they make it obvious that they could if you did something they don't approve of. So you spend a lot of thought worrying about not atracting their attention.
Another cause is lack of actually useful things to do, so people only compare themselves based on their popularity. If you suck at popularity contests, you are at the bottom of the social ladder. There is no way to compensate your lack of popularity by e.g. doing something that matters, because no one cares about that.
If you are adult and make enough money, you can make these problems go away. (Though you need to realize that you have this option; otherwise your own mind can keep you in prison for years.) Move away from the assholes; find friends who are nice. If something bad happens at your job, quit and find another one. Do things that you consider meaningful, and spend time with people who share your values.
And then at some moment you may look at the kids who were cool at high school, and realize that many of them turned out to be quite dysfunctional in real life. The greatest rebels have overdosed on drugs and died. The former playboys are divorced, and now they need to work two jobs in order to pay the child support. The ones who said the most impressive things... they still keep saying the same things, except no one is impressed anymore, because they see it as empty bullshit. The former shy kids are the ones doing interesting things now.
If you do something good, you get rewarded. It may be a social reward, from people who care about the same things. If you are lucky, there is also a financial reward. You realize the haters don't really matter; the dogs bark but the caravan goes on, and you are now a part of a caravan.
Suddenly, there is nothing to be shy about. Sure, there are still people who dislike you and dislike the things you do, etc. They just don't matter anymore.
I know what you mean about getting old and things like this vanishing with age. My oldest has just turned 18 and it's like looking back at an awkward snapshot of yourself.
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Yep. Just be kind to people and most everything else takes care of itself with time.
The less you’re affected by negativity from other people the more confident you become in yourself, which really becomes self fulfilling.
The less you’re affected by negativity from other people the more confident you become in yourself, which really becomes self fulfilling.
I think having kids forces you out of your shell for their sake, you have to be able to speak your mind to strangers, etc. and it becomes easier talking to others to get things done.
Having kids at least gives you a sort of pass for saying ridiculous things in public, and doing otherwise socially frowned-upon things generally.
It reminds me an interview of the "Groland" creators, the best trash and vulgar comedy tv show in France. They use a lot of elderly actors, playing insane characters, lots of nudity etc...
There was a question about the choice of using so much elderly actors, they said "they can do almost anything, they have nothing to lose". Nailed it.
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Yes this geez why did this become a thread of using MDMA or not, HN really loves to get into the nitty gritty of every problem doesn't it
> weird, unexplainable, vicious attitude that passes for cool
Or they just migrate to Wall Street?
Or they just migrate to Wall Street?
Practice. Practice practice practice. Which sounds daunting, but…
…now, I realize it’s unfair to map physical appearance to awkwardness, but…let’s take a look at me in 2008 versus 2021. https://imgur.com/7sR0qKt Can you infer I might have been awkward? Because I was awkward. Always had been, and in a lot of ways, I am still am.
But I am vastly better than I used to be. And it was practice. Slow, slow, slow practice. I started at the gym. Built a little confidence. Got a job where I was required to be in more meetings. Built a little more confidence. Moved to a new city. Built even more confidence. Joined a sports league. Built yet even more confidence. It’s a slow process of leveling up and being out there and exposed to the world and learning to live in it.
And as you get older, I find for me it’s gotten easier. People in their late-20s and 30s are not the back-biting den of snakes they were in high school—everyone begins to realize they have their own faults and foibles, and you begin to accept that other people are always going through things too. And, conversely, you begin to realize you’re never the star of anyone else’s internal story. People are paying far less attention to your awkwardness than you think. So…roll with it, find some hobbies you like that involve other people, and just keep practicing.
…now, I realize it’s unfair to map physical appearance to awkwardness, but…let’s take a look at me in 2008 versus 2021. https://imgur.com/7sR0qKt Can you infer I might have been awkward? Because I was awkward. Always had been, and in a lot of ways, I am still am.
But I am vastly better than I used to be. And it was practice. Slow, slow, slow practice. I started at the gym. Built a little confidence. Got a job where I was required to be in more meetings. Built a little more confidence. Moved to a new city. Built even more confidence. Joined a sports league. Built yet even more confidence. It’s a slow process of leveling up and being out there and exposed to the world and learning to live in it.
And as you get older, I find for me it’s gotten easier. People in their late-20s and 30s are not the back-biting den of snakes they were in high school—everyone begins to realize they have their own faults and foibles, and you begin to accept that other people are always going through things too. And, conversely, you begin to realize you’re never the star of anyone else’s internal story. People are paying far less attention to your awkwardness than you think. So…roll with it, find some hobbies you like that involve other people, and just keep practicing.
Just to build upon the Practice element you mentioned, any time you want to change something, then do exposure therapy
Can you go to the bar, speak to 50 people, make 5 excellent business contacts and conquor the world? No
Can you go to the bar and speak to 50 people? No
Can you go to the bar and speak to 3 people? No
Can you go to the bar? Yes
Ok, this time go to the bar, if you're not ready to speak to people then just observe others interactions. Then go home, that's enough for today.
Next time go to the bar, and speak to one person. Practice. That's enough for today.
Next time go a little further.
That's how I started at the gym. I realized I was avoiding the gym because I didn't know to how to go to the gym, do an excellent workout, and not make an idiot of myself. But that's too much at once.
I started by just going to the gym. Just show up. Stand there, look at the equipment and go home.
Next day, go to the gym, lift 1 weight 10 times. Then go home.
Next day, a little more.
Now I easily do an hour in the gym.
Expose yourself to the thing you fear in a reasonable way, repeated exposure with increasing intensity is what people say when they say "Practice, Practice, Practice"
Can you go to the bar, speak to 50 people, make 5 excellent business contacts and conquor the world? No
Can you go to the bar and speak to 50 people? No
Can you go to the bar and speak to 3 people? No
Can you go to the bar? Yes
Ok, this time go to the bar, if you're not ready to speak to people then just observe others interactions. Then go home, that's enough for today.
Next time go to the bar, and speak to one person. Practice. That's enough for today.
Next time go a little further.
That's how I started at the gym. I realized I was avoiding the gym because I didn't know to how to go to the gym, do an excellent workout, and not make an idiot of myself. But that's too much at once.
I started by just going to the gym. Just show up. Stand there, look at the equipment and go home.
Next day, go to the gym, lift 1 weight 10 times. Then go home.
Next day, a little more.
Now I easily do an hour in the gym.
Expose yourself to the thing you fear in a reasonable way, repeated exposure with increasing intensity is what people say when they say "Practice, Practice, Practice"
This is a meta-skill that many would benefit from. Find the smallest step towards your goal and try. If it’s too much, back off. If it felt comfortable, try a bigger step.
In general I would agree to your advice of taking small steps, but with the concrete examples, my former self would think "but then everyone remembers me as the creepy guy, who just comes and looks at everyone. I could not go to step 2 then"
Could you switch to a different bar not to be recognized as such?
Yup, one can do that.
And then build up a mental map, of places to avoid, leading to embarrassing situations later on ...
What worked for me, was travelling. It is easier to relax, thinking, you will likely never see anyone here again.
(even though the world is quite small and I did in fact saw many again, but that was cool)
What worked for me, was travelling. It is easier to relax, thinking, you will likely never see anyone here again.
(even though the world is quite small and I did in fact saw many again, but that was cool)
Another thing that can be much easier while traveling if you have anxiety is dating. Like you said, there's the comfort in knowing that you'll never see any people there again if you so choose. But if there's also a language barrier, it removes any expectations of witty banter and flirtation that usually relies on familiarity with your local culture and social norms. And there's less pressure to be interesting -- just being a foreigner will often make you interesting to locals without even trying, at least a first.
I agree about practice, but going into a bar and making business connections is pretty different from going to the gym. In five minutes of googling you'll find excellent training programmes, so detailed that a child can follow them. But there is no manual for social interaction, it's much much harder to learn if it doesn't come natural to you.
i love the gentle approach described here. it's the best way to make incremental progress in what seems at first glance to be an insurmountably difficult problem. thank you!
This may sound like a dumb question, but which person in the before picture, and which person in the after? It's like four different people. :D
Middle in the left. Right most in the new.
Easy to check on Flick: https://www.flickr.com/photos/perardi/ ;-)
I think rightmost in the old, and leftmost in the new
Ah, that makes more sense. I was thinking OP went from the larger man in the middle to the fit guy on the right - and was thinking, "Well sure! Lose 150 lbs and you'll gain some confidence!"
That was my thoughts too, which led me to assume that the transformative moment was related to some sort of sexual awakening (which comes with a whole slew of positive outcomes like inclusion, belonging and empowerment, particularly if you’ve been in repressive community or mental state). The comment doesn’t mention this all though, so it’s pure speculation.
And lots of chicken breast, right? I’m amazed at your progress!
I worked with you 12 years ago. What a small world!
Can confirm, he was awkward (but also talented)!
I worked with you 12 years ago. What a small world!
Can confirm, he was awkward (but also talented)!
Absurd amounts of chicken breast.
(Illini Media?)
(Illini Media?)
Your gains do not have to be someone else's loss
What a transformation! I'm speechless. It's like seeing a caterpillar turning into a butterfly. The second pic screams confidence and personality. Thanks for sharing your progress, you are an inspiration.
> Practice. Practice practice practice.
I don't really care about social awkwarness, but I'm annoyed that I used to be really good at presentations and training people, and I suck right now, because of lack of practice. And I didn't even actively practice before the presentation, I just jotted down a few ideas and was really passionate about the subject matter. Nowadays I find a lot of times that I stumble mid idea, forget what I was trying to show and generally break my flow a lot and find myself in "oh, snap, where did I lose them exactly?"
A couple of years of working as a contractor, changing jobs more frequently, the lockdowns and I didn't do a lot of presentations/idea sharing.
So yeah, practice and remember if you don't use it, you lose it.
I don't really care about social awkwarness, but I'm annoyed that I used to be really good at presentations and training people, and I suck right now, because of lack of practice. And I didn't even actively practice before the presentation, I just jotted down a few ideas and was really passionate about the subject matter. Nowadays I find a lot of times that I stumble mid idea, forget what I was trying to show and generally break my flow a lot and find myself in "oh, snap, where did I lose them exactly?"
A couple of years of working as a contractor, changing jobs more frequently, the lockdowns and I didn't do a lot of presentations/idea sharing.
So yeah, practice and remember if you don't use it, you lose it.
Could be lack of sleep, stress and to a degree age
Practice for sure. One thing I noticed with covid was just how out of practice I got. I felt vastly more critical of myself in social situations that would have been very normal pre covid (for example, being the first one to a social gathering and needing to make small talk with the host). Isolation really compounds awkwardness, since awkwardness (generally) leads to more isolation.
I think that social skills really are muscles that need to be developed and maintained. Have you ever tried brushing your teeth with the wrong hand? No amount of thinking and focus will get you the same fluidity as using your usual hand. Instead, you need to just suck for a while and practice until the muscles passively develop. Others have mentioned going to bars or the gym, but I'd also recommend joining a hiking group, a book club, or even attending a church that matches your beliefs. Basically, any sort of activity that has a somewhat consistent group of attendees and where the main focus of the event isn't talking. That way you can still feel successful even if you say very little, which can hopefully reduce the overanalyzing and self doubt that comes from awkwardness.
I think that social skills really are muscles that need to be developed and maintained. Have you ever tried brushing your teeth with the wrong hand? No amount of thinking and focus will get you the same fluidity as using your usual hand. Instead, you need to just suck for a while and practice until the muscles passively develop. Others have mentioned going to bars or the gym, but I'd also recommend joining a hiking group, a book club, or even attending a church that matches your beliefs. Basically, any sort of activity that has a somewhat consistent group of attendees and where the main focus of the event isn't talking. That way you can still feel successful even if you say very little, which can hopefully reduce the overanalyzing and self doubt that comes from awkwardness.
[deleted]
> I realize it’s unfair to map physical appearance to awkwardness
Doesn't seem like you do (given that you do exactly that in the same sentence).
Doesn't seem like you do (given that you do exactly that in the same sentence).
Give the man a break. He’s displaying his social skills by calling attention to his physical and stylistic transformation in a way that nods at plausible deniability. This is how you do this. Get hot and wear clothes that show you care about clothes is part of self-presentation. Becoming more attractive leads to better social skills almost automatically. People treat you better and you become more confident and both feed on each other.
The cold hard truth that I realized I long time ago is what I call the “two strikes rule”. When you are short (as am I), you already have two strikes against you in society.
You can’t be “short and” - short and broke, short and mean, short and shy, short and fat (which I was until I was 18).
You can’t be “short and” - short and broke, short and mean, short and shy, short and fat (which I was until I was 18).
Not denying your experience in any way, just want to remark: I heard (and felt) similar takes regarding a lot of "negative" properties from a lot of different people. Height, weight, race, gender, hair color, stutters, country of origin and even really specific stuff like big ears.
Might be helpful to consider that most people feel like they have two strikes against them already (some of them being more right in their assumption maybe).
Might be helpful to consider that most people feel like they have two strikes against them already (some of them being more right in their assumption maybe).
I am a short male in my mid twenties and I am also getting to the same conclusion. If you're short, you need to work harder. There is no chance you can be unfit, fat or awekward. You will be screwed. But honestly, sometimes I feel like it's a good blessing. It pushes you to improve many aspects of your life. You want to be successful in your career, you want to work harder, you want to excercise like there is no tomorrow, you want to read more, you want to be more social, etc. It pushes you to become a better person. But the height deficiency is always there and it's an unfortunate tragic event and a very hard truth to swallow. Life is unfair.
I feel for short guys. Apparently it's ok for women to put "swipe right if over 6ft" on dating apps. I doubt I'd get much success with "swipe right if over 36D and you can deep throat"
I've noticed the best dancer in a club is a short guy. Tall guys can just coast, but a bit of time in the gym definitely helps.
I've noticed the best dancer in a club is a short guy. Tall guys can just coast, but a bit of time in the gym definitely helps.
As a tall guy, I've always assumed that there is a reason most good male dancers I can think of are average height or shorter. Tall people just don't have the right body proportions and/or fluidity of movement. There's just something that looks gangly and weird when tall guys are dancing.
Maybe that's just what I tell myself to feel better.
Maybe that's just what I tell myself to feel better.
So, I normally stick very hard to tech topics on HN, but this (dance and tall folks) is so close to heart I have to chime in:
Have faith! Don't feel bad, lankiness while dancing is just "the emergent property" of what happens when a tall person is learning. Short dancers (of whom the 2 of the best footwork-heads in my old crew were) have their own pathologies to get over, it's not all free lunch, they just look differently when they do. And similarly, as they improve, they can gain a really distinctive style of crisp, clean, fast, small motions. HOWEVER, tall dancers aren't precluded from mastering styles that works with our body either, it just, tall as for short, takes practice. Have a link to one of my favorites, Kapela [0]. I can only hope it inspires others like it does me :) (Going to go do my footwork practice now, in fact, as talking about this got me excited.)
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoBveCfGCZk
Have faith! Don't feel bad, lankiness while dancing is just "the emergent property" of what happens when a tall person is learning. Short dancers (of whom the 2 of the best footwork-heads in my old crew were) have their own pathologies to get over, it's not all free lunch, they just look differently when they do. And similarly, as they improve, they can gain a really distinctive style of crisp, clean, fast, small motions. HOWEVER, tall dancers aren't precluded from mastering styles that works with our body either, it just, tall as for short, takes practice. Have a link to one of my favorites, Kapela [0]. I can only hope it inspires others like it does me :) (Going to go do my footwork practice now, in fact, as talking about this got me excited.)
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoBveCfGCZk
Two of the best dancers on the planet are 6'4" twins that go by Les Twins.
I'd actually suggest it's easier to be a good dancer if you're tall and lanky because the movement of your limbs is more apparent.
I'd actually suggest it's easier to be a good dancer if you're tall and lanky because the movement of your limbs is more apparent.
> It pushes you to become a better person
I'm sure this is true, I've noticed a lot of the best football playing kids in my son's circles are short, and often immigrants.
> There is no chance you can be unfit, fat or awekward
This is just as true if you're tall. You don't get away with being fat or awkward if you're tall. The only thing is that, ceteris paribus, it's more desirable. It doesn't really cancel any other shortcoming.
I'm sure this is true, I've noticed a lot of the best football playing kids in my son's circles are short, and often immigrants.
> There is no chance you can be unfit, fat or awekward
This is just as true if you're tall. You don't get away with being fat or awkward if you're tall. The only thing is that, ceteris paribus, it's more desirable. It doesn't really cancel any other shortcoming.
Not with that attitude my friend.
“Attitude” doesn’t make a difference. It makes no sense for anyone to bury their head in the sand and ignore reality. I took action early on.
- I’ve been in above average shape for most of my adult life - I’m in my late 40s
- I spent a 10+ year stint as a part time fitness instructor. Then life got crazy
- By BigTech standards my compensation is meh. But I work remotely for BigTech in a mid cost of living area
- I’ve been happily married for a decade.
No woman has ever said “you know what? I really want a short overweight broke introvert. It’s what I’ve always dreamed of”.
- I’ve been in above average shape for most of my adult life - I’m in my late 40s
- I spent a 10+ year stint as a part time fitness instructor. Then life got crazy
- By BigTech standards my compensation is meh. But I work remotely for BigTech in a mid cost of living area
- I’ve been happily married for a decade.
No woman has ever said “you know what? I really want a short overweight broke introvert. It’s what I’ve always dreamed of”.
What people say is not important, obviously no-one will say that, but in practice nobody cares how tall Mick Jagger is, or Gabe in The Office.
Mick Jagger - famous, rich, talented.
Gabe from the office - famous, rich, talented.
You kind of just proved my point.
I’m by no means an incel. But things might have turned out differently if I did have the “third strike”.
My wife of 10 years would and has been with me through thick and thin and I’m 100% confident that she will be no matter what. But I doubt she would have given a 36 year old (at the time) the time of day if I had been 5 foot 5, 350 pounds, flipping burgers at McDonalds and yelling at her “hey shawty, give me dem digits”.
And before the woke police chastise me for picking on “urban Black culture”, not only are “some of my best friends Black”, so are my parents and all of my family.
Gabe from the office - famous, rich, talented.
You kind of just proved my point.
I’m by no means an incel. But things might have turned out differently if I did have the “third strike”.
My wife of 10 years would and has been with me through thick and thin and I’m 100% confident that she will be no matter what. But I doubt she would have given a 36 year old (at the time) the time of day if I had been 5 foot 5, 350 pounds, flipping burgers at McDonalds and yelling at her “hey shawty, give me dem digits”.
And before the woke police chastise me for picking on “urban Black culture”, not only are “some of my best friends Black”, so are my parents and all of my family.
> 36 year old (at the time) the time of day if I had been 5 foot 5, 350 pounds, flipping burgers at McDonalds and yelling at her “hey shawty, give me dem digits”.
Are you arguing then that she'd have swooned over all that but 6ft tall? Sounds like a real catch.
Are you arguing then that she'd have swooned over all that but 6ft tall? Sounds like a real catch.
I am not talking about you, just saying that if you're charismatic height is not relevant, any tinder girl that says she only dates tall guys will forget that if a short rock star shows up.
No idea why you'd say Gabe is famous rich and talented. I'm talking about the character, he's none of those things. No girl would ever look at him, tall or not.
No idea why you'd say Gabe is famous rich and talented. I'm talking about the character, he's none of those things. No girl would ever look at him, tall or not.
Napoleon was short. He did alright.
Napoleon was not actually short. He was around 169cm which was a little above the average French man of the period.
He also wasn’t dumb, broke, or an introvert…
> Napoleon was routinely bullied by his peers for his accent, birthplace, short stature, mannerisms and inability to speak French quickly. Bonaparte became reserved and melancholy, applying himself to reading.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon
should he have designed a social graph? /s
i think his demenaour is selfdescribing
i think his demenaour is selfdescribing
Throwing myself out there, getting rejected and snubbed otherwise slapped around a lot .. until I slowly started to figure out how to observe "normal, healthy" people and learn from them.
Among the things we learn is -- that we are much more "plastic" (and able to change by sheer force of will) than we initially thought. Things like hygiene, posture, clarity of speech (such that people can at least understand us) and tonal confidence are, for many of us, simply matters of bad habit that can be unlearned and their negative effects reversed, over time.
The more we improve ourselves in these basic areas, the better we feel about ourselves... and soon enough people notice, and over time it becomes not only gets easier but starts to feel natural. Not instantly but... over time. Until the day comes when you stop thinking (so much) about how "awkward" you are, and instead you're thinking about your new life, your new friends, your hot new relationship, your awesome new day job (if that matters), etc.
That and two other tips: (1) Taking the plunge, and moving to a totally new geographic area (or even just getting a different, much better place in the city where you live) can do wonders; as does (2) Paradoxically, not giving an F about what other people think. That is to say, acknowledging that it matters to some degree, on a certain level ... but in the scheme of things, it also just doesn't matter. Which helps you relax and feel confident (which does a lot to ameliorate the negative perceptions people have of you).
Among the things we learn is -- that we are much more "plastic" (and able to change by sheer force of will) than we initially thought. Things like hygiene, posture, clarity of speech (such that people can at least understand us) and tonal confidence are, for many of us, simply matters of bad habit that can be unlearned and their negative effects reversed, over time.
The more we improve ourselves in these basic areas, the better we feel about ourselves... and soon enough people notice, and over time it becomes not only gets easier but starts to feel natural. Not instantly but... over time. Until the day comes when you stop thinking (so much) about how "awkward" you are, and instead you're thinking about your new life, your new friends, your hot new relationship, your awesome new day job (if that matters), etc.
That and two other tips: (1) Taking the plunge, and moving to a totally new geographic area (or even just getting a different, much better place in the city where you live) can do wonders; as does (2) Paradoxically, not giving an F about what other people think. That is to say, acknowledging that it matters to some degree, on a certain level ... but in the scheme of things, it also just doesn't matter. Which helps you relax and feel confident (which does a lot to ameliorate the negative perceptions people have of you).
Ironically, I have done exactly the two tips you mentioned, and I can confidently say that my life has changed drastically. In fact, so much so, that when I catch up with people who knew me even two years ago, they usually make a comment.
One thing I was initially afraid of when deciding to move was “running away from my problems” only to realize I’m in the exact same situation as before. Well, that was actually very true. I still felt like the same “awkward” person despite moving across the country. But here’s the difference; I was actually motivated to fix it.
Being in a new city opened my eyes to how much I wanted to explore, but also how much I was holding myself back. Ever since moving, I’ve lost my fear of being myself, have a partner, and found a higher paying job.
My main point here is that while you can’t run away from your true inner self, a new environment can certainly change your perspective and direction. I also want to note that I’m making it sound like it was as easy as moving, so to be transparent, it wasn’t easy. It took a lot of self discipline and discomfort, but it was worth every second of doubt.
One thing I was initially afraid of when deciding to move was “running away from my problems” only to realize I’m in the exact same situation as before. Well, that was actually very true. I still felt like the same “awkward” person despite moving across the country. But here’s the difference; I was actually motivated to fix it.
Being in a new city opened my eyes to how much I wanted to explore, but also how much I was holding myself back. Ever since moving, I’ve lost my fear of being myself, have a partner, and found a higher paying job.
My main point here is that while you can’t run away from your true inner self, a new environment can certainly change your perspective and direction. I also want to note that I’m making it sound like it was as easy as moving, so to be transparent, it wasn’t easy. It took a lot of self discipline and discomfort, but it was worth every second of doubt.
If it took only 2 years, it was easy. I’ve travelled around the world and did most of the possible side quests, including the workout phase, the guitar phase, the charity/vegan phase, the millionaire phase, and I’m still transparent to women. And I’ve grown bitter.
I did everything I could. I’d say “please, help” but to be honest, I’ve grown too bitter to hear the advice. It’s a game designed to make me lose, I’m neither BALM nor female, so they just want to exclude me.
I did everything I could. I’d say “please, help” but to be honest, I’ve grown too bitter to hear the advice. It’s a game designed to make me lose, I’m neither BALM nor female, so they just want to exclude me.
You describe an approach to dating that sounds like you're playing a video game and everyone else is an NPC. It's not about ticking achievements off a box. You're playing the race card, but I'm pretty positive that there are countless white males less successful than a claimed fit millionaire guitar-playing you who somehow have found relationships! If you could somehow change your skin color you'd have the same problems because that's no more a meaningful change for building strong relationships than playing guitar or working out.
This comment contains no advice. It just tells that all the tracks I’ve tried are wrong/not useful (in your books, at least).
It contains a lot of advice.
Like:
- stop treating people like NPCs in game, because it makes you look like a simpleton not them - "scoring" is not the goal, living life is - being interesting as a person is much more than "working out", "playing guitar" - if you try to "score" you seem like desperate loser, people see right through it - amount of money in bank account does not mean much if you are desperate loser - people have emotions and it is most important part to understand to "win" in life
Like:
- stop treating people like NPCs in game, because it makes you look like a simpleton not them - "scoring" is not the goal, living life is - being interesting as a person is much more than "working out", "playing guitar" - if you try to "score" you seem like desperate loser, people see right through it - amount of money in bank account does not mean much if you are desperate loser - people have emotions and it is most important part to understand to "win" in life
Cool, I do none of that.
The lengths that are required for people to acknowledge a problem… The “it must be you” answer.
The lengths that are required for people to acknowledge a problem… The “it must be you” answer.
You're referring to life as a game, and checking off a list of objectives. I might be wrong, but from just what you said it sounds like you did these "phases" because you wanted people to think you were these things, not because you were them. I've found people (especially woman) are good at seeing through these pretenses.
What tells you I wanted people to believe I were these things? I did guitar because it was nice to sing, and the idea of singing around a bonfire and maybe making people sing was just a good feeling. I sang the last song of a friend who died from cancer, and that was a song we had written together. He went for his last sleep on it, that’s the best departure I could imagine for him. Unfortunately, I plateaued at some level, like probably everyone does, so it became boring and annoying to not progress. It doesn’t mean I wasn’t guitar.
Anyway I don’t understand what women are looking for, that’s why I’m getting downvoted.
Anyway I don’t understand what women are looking for, that’s why I’m getting downvoted.
I want to help, but you actually supported my point. You learnt guitar because you wanted the good feeling of people joining in you, which is the feeling of admiration.
You've supposedly been very successful and are caring of your friends, so I might be wrong of course. But it sounds like a case of socialmedia addiction along with incel-esk belief that if you matched a certain image, women would simply line up. You should do things because they are your passion.
To test this, is there a skill you're proud of and promote as your image that would not be seen as classically attractive? A stunning Pong score, a weirdly advance knowledge of B52 planes? A passion for fantasy books and their effect on the Mongolian peninsula?
You've supposedly been very successful and are caring of your friends, so I might be wrong of course. But it sounds like a case of socialmedia addiction along with incel-esk belief that if you matched a certain image, women would simply line up. You should do things because they are your passion.
To test this, is there a skill you're proud of and promote as your image that would not be seen as classically attractive? A stunning Pong score, a weirdly advance knowledge of B52 planes? A passion for fantasy books and their effect on the Mongolian peninsula?
And I say all of this as someone who tried to learn guitar because I wanted to have that cool singing moment, but looking back I just wanted to be the center of attention. Which is very unattractive.
> good feeling of people joining in you, which is the feeling of admiration.
Well, look around you, everyone gets their minute on stage, my schoolmates literally were into acting and showing off all the time. Even the thief of the band is with a cute girl now lol. But about ego-fuelled passions: the more everyone has a skill at making something beautiful, the more fun are your parties, because they all add up. So, it’s good to learn stuff, and I mostly want my participation trophy for bringing my share.
> You are supposedly caring of your friends
Yeah I was the one caring for the cancer friend while everyone had swimming pool. I was his worst political enemy when alive, he would have punched me if he had known my opinions, and here I was, his worst enemy, playing him his own song for his last breath, and none of his commie friends were here. Two days later his mother called me saying he never woke up. I was the last guy he saw, and not randomly, I was there every second day despite being 120km away. Me, the guy seen as selfish.
> But it sounds like a case of socialmedia addiction along with incel-esk belief that if you matched a certain image, women would simply line up.
Can you technically describe it in a worse way? I think it’s a case of when a man isn’t successful, we blame him, and we depict him as the worst possible man, like expecting to “have pussy lined up like in the good ol’ times, cause you know, I’m all muscles and virility, big car with big sound, so women dishwasher blahblahblah.” I’m not this man. I’m just angry because I’m losing at life, and everyone caricatures me. I might just not be talented socially despite making all attempts respectfully (and making all attempts respectfully is what girls hate the most - even wifebeaters have a wife, I don’t) but it’s easier to imagine an incel chad, because the goal is to find a way to blame it on the guy.
> You should do things because they are your passion. To test this, is there a skill you're proud of and promote as your image that would not be seen as classically attractive?
Yes, my work: I love building products and participating to the economic world, notably because it’s what I do best, but also because it makes everyone’s life better. Belonging to a charity is equally important. I also like windsurfing and guitar, but I’m average in both. But do realize that no woman is interested in a no-life worker with average level in two things, so yes, men have to adapt and do social stuff which puts them forward, preferably stuff that are halfway towards meeting women on a common ground. So according to your theory (for the return caricature, don’t take it literally), I should now be more seducing because I’m passionate in something. Actually, technically, you are saying not that I should be passionate, but I should be having a “stunning score” in that passion, so being excellent is required.
I think all of those are wrong leads. I think we as men should develop skills in many areas, guitar and windsurf included, and make a living and care for others around us, and girls should like us for who we are, and the fact that I’m not in, is both an unfortunate turn of events AND a very very very high hypocrisy of society about the incredible lack of consideration we give to men. And, perhaps, that society pushes so much into making diversity fashionable, that you really have to give “way more” of yourself as a white straight man, if you want a woman to accept you. And sorry, but I don’t want to be a slave to a woman, and I don’t want either to cheat her ego by flattering her with untrue stuff like so many are doing.
I’m crying because, writing this text, I notice I did so many things right, and I’m still losing at life and people still turn the blame back onto me. It’s an endless roundrobbin of blame, no-one will ever say “Ok guys, we did a mistake as a society, all wifebeaters have a wife, while regular workers get an annoying couple or no wife at all, while people who lie to women drown in pussy. That’s not good for anyone involved.”
Well, look around you, everyone gets their minute on stage, my schoolmates literally were into acting and showing off all the time. Even the thief of the band is with a cute girl now lol. But about ego-fuelled passions: the more everyone has a skill at making something beautiful, the more fun are your parties, because they all add up. So, it’s good to learn stuff, and I mostly want my participation trophy for bringing my share.
> You are supposedly caring of your friends
Yeah I was the one caring for the cancer friend while everyone had swimming pool. I was his worst political enemy when alive, he would have punched me if he had known my opinions, and here I was, his worst enemy, playing him his own song for his last breath, and none of his commie friends were here. Two days later his mother called me saying he never woke up. I was the last guy he saw, and not randomly, I was there every second day despite being 120km away. Me, the guy seen as selfish.
> But it sounds like a case of socialmedia addiction along with incel-esk belief that if you matched a certain image, women would simply line up.
Can you technically describe it in a worse way? I think it’s a case of when a man isn’t successful, we blame him, and we depict him as the worst possible man, like expecting to “have pussy lined up like in the good ol’ times, cause you know, I’m all muscles and virility, big car with big sound, so women dishwasher blahblahblah.” I’m not this man. I’m just angry because I’m losing at life, and everyone caricatures me. I might just not be talented socially despite making all attempts respectfully (and making all attempts respectfully is what girls hate the most - even wifebeaters have a wife, I don’t) but it’s easier to imagine an incel chad, because the goal is to find a way to blame it on the guy.
> You should do things because they are your passion. To test this, is there a skill you're proud of and promote as your image that would not be seen as classically attractive?
Yes, my work: I love building products and participating to the economic world, notably because it’s what I do best, but also because it makes everyone’s life better. Belonging to a charity is equally important. I also like windsurfing and guitar, but I’m average in both. But do realize that no woman is interested in a no-life worker with average level in two things, so yes, men have to adapt and do social stuff which puts them forward, preferably stuff that are halfway towards meeting women on a common ground. So according to your theory (for the return caricature, don’t take it literally), I should now be more seducing because I’m passionate in something. Actually, technically, you are saying not that I should be passionate, but I should be having a “stunning score” in that passion, so being excellent is required.
I think all of those are wrong leads. I think we as men should develop skills in many areas, guitar and windsurf included, and make a living and care for others around us, and girls should like us for who we are, and the fact that I’m not in, is both an unfortunate turn of events AND a very very very high hypocrisy of society about the incredible lack of consideration we give to men. And, perhaps, that society pushes so much into making diversity fashionable, that you really have to give “way more” of yourself as a white straight man, if you want a woman to accept you. And sorry, but I don’t want to be a slave to a woman, and I don’t want either to cheat her ego by flattering her with untrue stuff like so many are doing.
I’m crying because, writing this text, I notice I did so many things right, and I’m still losing at life and people still turn the blame back onto me. It’s an endless roundrobbin of blame, no-one will ever say “Ok guys, we did a mistake as a society, all wifebeaters have a wife, while regular workers get an annoying couple or no wife at all, while people who lie to women drown in pussy. That’s not good for anyone involved.”
There's a lot wrong with society, and the expectations that are put on men which are ultimately damaging isn't talked about enough. Broadly, I think there's a sense that men must "earn" their worth through achievements, i.e. you are not born with inherent 'worth'. This belief is inculcated into us at a young age, explicitly or otherwise, and constantly re-affirmed by our media and culture as a whole.
There are two ironies to this. The first irony is that no matter what some people do, they will not reap the 'rewards' that was promised to them. This becomes obviously true when we remember that we don't live in a just world, at all, of which this fantasy of cosmic justice relies on. The second irony is that this fantasy of cosmic justice is inherently damaging and perpetuates injustice. We need to drop the idea that good things follow good people.
In your case, you're seeing it play out in the dating world, where issues of loneliness and the natural, human desire for intimacy are dismissed as being superficial complaints from basement-dwelling "incels". I am sorry that you experience this. Moreover, there appears to be no correlation between passions for a number of hobbies and lifestyles with what people are ultimately attracted to. Personally, I think we should drop the whole idea that there's a list of things men need to do before women can find them attractive. The same goes for women.
I don't know you personally, and I think these kind of issues hit at the most vulnerable parts of people so I don't want to sway you with any specific ideas of my own. So the only advice I can offer is cautionary: be wary of adopting only a masochistic epistemology. It is tempting to see the world through the lens of "I will never be attractive to women, no matter what I do" and finding every example of this to reinforce it. Everyone who has experienced the darker depths of the human soul knows that there is a pleasure in believing that whatever hurts is true. This leads to a vicious cycle of thoughts. This pessimism must be tempered by an optimistic epistemology. What that bountiful optimism looks like to you, I don't know, but from my experience, it is a missing 'second half' to the world that I had to consciously find which brought a healing and resiliency that deepened my relationship with myself as well as others. Best of luck.
There are two ironies to this. The first irony is that no matter what some people do, they will not reap the 'rewards' that was promised to them. This becomes obviously true when we remember that we don't live in a just world, at all, of which this fantasy of cosmic justice relies on. The second irony is that this fantasy of cosmic justice is inherently damaging and perpetuates injustice. We need to drop the idea that good things follow good people.
In your case, you're seeing it play out in the dating world, where issues of loneliness and the natural, human desire for intimacy are dismissed as being superficial complaints from basement-dwelling "incels". I am sorry that you experience this. Moreover, there appears to be no correlation between passions for a number of hobbies and lifestyles with what people are ultimately attracted to. Personally, I think we should drop the whole idea that there's a list of things men need to do before women can find them attractive. The same goes for women.
I don't know you personally, and I think these kind of issues hit at the most vulnerable parts of people so I don't want to sway you with any specific ideas of my own. So the only advice I can offer is cautionary: be wary of adopting only a masochistic epistemology. It is tempting to see the world through the lens of "I will never be attractive to women, no matter what I do" and finding every example of this to reinforce it. Everyone who has experienced the darker depths of the human soul knows that there is a pleasure in believing that whatever hurts is true. This leads to a vicious cycle of thoughts. This pessimism must be tempered by an optimistic epistemology. What that bountiful optimism looks like to you, I don't know, but from my experience, it is a missing 'second half' to the world that I had to consciously find which brought a healing and resiliency that deepened my relationship with myself as well as others. Best of luck.
Your kindness to your friend was noble. I apologise for my frank diagnosis. Being talented as a cog of the economy is sadly very classically attractive, doubly so because you again do it because you wish to impact other people. I wish you the best.
BALM?
Black, Asian, Latino, or Mixed. Basically he's just a regular white man which gets no love in a lot of liberal areas unless you do something unique like those "phases" he mentioned. He should move. The best thing you can do as a white man is move somewhere that everyone isn't white. Then you will get a lot of attention even if you're very boring.
It’s not about them it’s about you. Do things for you, not them.
If you still insist on making it about them do everything women complain about that’s not illegal, except dick pics, unless you’re hung.
I’d recommend pairing the millionaire thing with bringing a couple grams with you to party. Everything else you described sounds like incel stuff.
If you still insist on making it about them do everything women complain about that’s not illegal, except dick pics, unless you’re hung.
I’d recommend pairing the millionaire thing with bringing a couple grams with you to party. Everything else you described sounds like incel stuff.
"how to observe "normal, healthy" people and learn from them."
Very true! I would go as far as emulating a person you admire due to their ability to interact with others. Deconstruct their interaction and look for the parts that can help you. One thing you will mostly notice is self confidence. People always feel good with people that project that. Make sure it's confidence not arrogance. It's a fine line.
Very true! I would go as far as emulating a person you admire due to their ability to interact with others. Deconstruct their interaction and look for the parts that can help you. One thing you will mostly notice is self confidence. People always feel good with people that project that. Make sure it's confidence not arrogance. It's a fine line.
And funnily enough one of the first things you'll notice is that confident people have the same awkward faux pas interactions that would keep you awake at night all the time - maybe even more often, since they aren't so hyper-alert analyzing the conversation. But they just don't care!
And because they don't get all shy and awkward when the awkward thing happens, because they don't make it awkward, the other person doesn't feel awkward either, and maybe at most both parties laugh about it for a moment, the conversation continues and life goes on and that night they sleep the peaceful sleep of the innocent. Or they lie awake worrying about some entirely different set of life problems, because we're all just doing our best and showing the best face we can.
And because they don't get all shy and awkward when the awkward thing happens, because they don't make it awkward, the other person doesn't feel awkward either, and maybe at most both parties laugh about it for a moment, the conversation continues and life goes on and that night they sleep the peaceful sleep of the innocent. Or they lie awake worrying about some entirely different set of life problems, because we're all just doing our best and showing the best face we can.
So true, you remember your mistakes way more than anyone else's. Think about it. How many of other people's mistakes do you remember? Not many, if any. You just don't have the time and energy to focus on someone else life. It's hard enough to deal with yours. Be kind to yourself, note mistakes but don't obsess over them.
1) is huge. I really started coming out of my shell when I went traveling - here I was in a foreign country where nobody knew me and I'd never see any of these people ever again. So why not talk to the random person at the train station? Why not walk up and introduce myself to some strangers at the bar? And with that practice I started getting better at it, which made me more confident, which made me more comfortable with it, which made me better at it, and there we have that positive feedback loop.
I would be very interested in any tips regarding improving one’s speech skills. I am way too prone to talking too fast to the point where I have sometimes trouble forming words and any like “I didn’t get that” makes me more anxious increasing my rate of mistakes.
But strangely it largely creeped up to me when I was around 20ish years old, while my teenage anxiety largely diminished.
But strangely it largely creeped up to me when I was around 20ish years old, while my teenage anxiety largely diminished.
I personally recommend joining a local Toastmasters club. They can help you with speed, tone, volume, etc. It can benefit your conversational speech as well, not only public speaking.
Or a local speech course. I took an eight-week course in public speaking in college, and it was probably the most useful course I took there. I can do talks in front of tech groups or hobby groups... not without some sweating, but still more effectively than most people.
Breathe in completely, breathe out completely, then breathe in just a little bit before speaking. The breathing out is the most important part.
Read and record yourself. Repeat until you learn what sounds good coming out of your mouth. Write at the same time. Think about your words. Savor both. It makes a world of difference. When you write read aloud.
Share. Communication of all kinds goes together. If you get this far you may also find that practicing your voice in speech and writing will improve your self confidence too.
Share. Communication of all kinds goes together. If you get this far you may also find that practicing your voice in speech and writing will improve your self confidence too.
There's a free short course on Udemy somewhere from Peter Barker who is a professional voice over artist. That's worth looking up - there's a section that covers correcting and improving a lot of common speech problems, from stuttering, talking too fast, mumbling, and how to improve the resonance of your voice. Might be worth a look.
Very interesting name for a voice coach.
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Great answer. I agree getting out of one's comfort zone can go a long way to bringing new perspective, and adapting, and developing new skills. Especially social ones.
+1 to worrying less about what other people think of you. Ironically, this caring less can actually make people like you more (because you seem more confident).
How do you stop caring? I would give nearly anything for this superpower. Even obviously completely insignificant moments that matter to no-one can stick with me for days, and some stay with me for years, bubbling up and causing anxiety or low mood out of nowhere. No amount of rational analysis or forced positive thinking seems to help.
For me it was a combination of having achieved some amount of success (physical, financial, career) and also some humbling failure.
Basically I learned I'm not so bad, and I'm not a great man either. I'm good enough. I don't hurt other people.
I like myself, and when you genuinely like yourself then other people's opinions aren't quite as important. Nearly everyone responds positively when you aren't seeking other's approval (but are still kind).
I suspect this comes with age for a lot of people. Didn't happen for me until my 30s. Losing weight and getting into shape was a huge catalyst, I highly recommend it.
Basically I learned I'm not so bad, and I'm not a great man either. I'm good enough. I don't hurt other people.
I like myself, and when you genuinely like yourself then other people's opinions aren't quite as important. Nearly everyone responds positively when you aren't seeking other's approval (but are still kind).
I suspect this comes with age for a lot of people. Didn't happen for me until my 30s. Losing weight and getting into shape was a huge catalyst, I highly recommend it.
You have to expect that quite a few people aren't going to like you, in any case, you just aren't compatible. After all, do you like everybody else?
I'm sure some people don't like me. But they keep it to themselves. Even if they didn't, so what? Unless I did something to hurt them, I shouldn't be upset about it.
Perhaps cognitive behavior therapy could help with your anxiety.
Ecstasy.
I had massive problems speaking with people. I ended up going to a rave with some friends, took some molly, had an amazing time talking to people and then realized that if I could do that with a drug then I could probably do it without a drug. (I haven’t done e in over a decade).
I still had some issues with public speaking so during my mba I forced myself to give every presentation possible. This largely solved that problem.
Note that mdma can kill you, especially if taken without experience. This is not an endorsement of drug taking.
I had massive problems speaking with people. I ended up going to a rave with some friends, took some molly, had an amazing time talking to people and then realized that if I could do that with a drug then I could probably do it without a drug. (I haven’t done e in over a decade).
I still had some issues with public speaking so during my mba I forced myself to give every presentation possible. This largely solved that problem.
Note that mdma can kill you, especially if taken without experience. This is not an endorsement of drug taking.
Same here. As a shy guy in my 20s I went to a small club on 300mg of Ecstasy, and over 5 hours I introduced myself to pretty much everybody in the place, asked a random girl to dance and went backstage to chat in another language with the band. I just felt I was a human among other humans. At home among friends.
I must've been pretty clearly high as a kite, but the lesson I learned that night is that people generally are approachable, not that scary and we just want to have a good time. The negative side effects was thinking I had fallen in mad love with a complete stranger, and the extreme dehydration that caused me to drink about 5L of water over as many hours.
I haven't taken MDMA since, I plan to try it again later in my life when I'm content with my place in the world (no more than once a season, as Shulgin recommended), but it was certainly an eye opening experience I will treasure forever. This relaxed and optimistic view of the world and other people has been with me since that very night.
With the correct set and setting, MDMA is something everyone should experience once in their lives.
I must've been pretty clearly high as a kite, but the lesson I learned that night is that people generally are approachable, not that scary and we just want to have a good time. The negative side effects was thinking I had fallen in mad love with a complete stranger, and the extreme dehydration that caused me to drink about 5L of water over as many hours.
I haven't taken MDMA since, I plan to try it again later in my life when I'm content with my place in the world (no more than once a season, as Shulgin recommended), but it was certainly an eye opening experience I will treasure forever. This relaxed and optimistic view of the world and other people has been with me since that very night.
With the correct set and setting, MDMA is something everyone should experience once in their lives.
For anyone thinking of doing this, maybe I'm just being old and cautious, but 300mg is a lot to take in one go if you're new to it.
You'll get the full experience on 100. You can always take more, but never untake what you've had. My brother had a rough first time because he dropped with someone who was a bit of a warrior.
MDMA is a great drug, but best when used responsibly. I avoid alcohol with it these days too, makes for a much cleaner night and a better morning.
You'll get the full experience on 100. You can always take more, but never untake what you've had. My brother had a rough first time because he dropped with someone who was a bit of a warrior.
MDMA is a great drug, but best when used responsibly. I avoid alcohol with it these days too, makes for a much cleaner night and a better morning.
Good call, I was aware it was a strong dose, but it was my 3rd roll at that point.
I agree with starting with 100–150mg, and my suggestion for harm reduction is to take 5-HTP for a few days after a trip to restore some of the depleted serotonin. The post-MDMA funk is real.
Also, never redose and never chase the dragon. You will never relive your first MDMA experience, so make it count and enjoy it.
I agree with starting with 100–150mg, and my suggestion for harm reduction is to take 5-HTP for a few days after a trip to restore some of the depleted serotonin. The post-MDMA funk is real.
Also, never redose and never chase the dragon. You will never relive your first MDMA experience, so make it count and enjoy it.
I can echo your positive experience but the effect this has on people around you should also be taken into account. On MDMA you're going to want to talk to everybody about everything and that can lead to awkward situations once you've come down. Not only that but upon noticing your gigantic pupils some people might be a bit freaked out or feel like they're trapped in a conversation with you.
TLDR do it around people who aren't going to mind that you're obviously on MDMA
TLDR do it around people who aren't going to mind that you're obviously on MDMA
Certainly, but one aspect of my shyness was being preoccupied over what people would think of me, and sometimes it's good to be oblivious you have dilated pupils and you look on drugs. Sometimes it's good not to overthink and just do and see no harm comes of it.
But of course socialising sober is and feels better, though it does not come as easy.
But of course socialising sober is and feels better, though it does not come as easy.
I had a similar situation. The only time I took half a pill out of curiosity, and I suddenly opened up with everyone around. It was during a time that I was quite grumpy and would often drink heavily, and didn't know how to deal with my feelings.
I felt this odd urge to express myself towards everyone around me and was being very wholesome about it. I was aware that this was odd behavior for me, but I liked it and it felt like I was "letting go".
I noticed what I was feeling and how I was expressing myself and that it was ok. That was enough validation for me to keep on without taking mdma.
This happened just the once. I haven't felt the need to try it out more since then.
I felt this odd urge to express myself towards everyone around me and was being very wholesome about it. I was aware that this was odd behavior for me, but I liked it and it felt like I was "letting go".
I noticed what I was feeling and how I was expressing myself and that it was ok. That was enough validation for me to keep on without taking mdma.
This happened just the once. I haven't felt the need to try it out more since then.
Worked for me too.
Note to readers, before you try it you should know the difference between ecstacy, molly/mandy and MDMA. The drug you want is MDMA. Do your research[0] and this drug will be safer than climbing a mountain or something (and way safer than alcohol). Very few people have actually died from this drug but you should understand why they died.
[0] https://erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_basics.shtml
Note to readers, before you try it you should know the difference between ecstacy, molly/mandy and MDMA. The drug you want is MDMA. Do your research[0] and this drug will be safer than climbing a mountain or something (and way safer than alcohol). Very few people have actually died from this drug but you should understand why they died.
[0] https://erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_basics.shtml
Safer in terms of the risk of death, sure, but there seem to be other risks involved.[0] That paper doesn't necessarily disagree with anything in the page you linked, and it's pretty old now. I just want to emphasise that it's not a simple decision to make.
[0] https://sci-hub.mksa.top/10.1002/hup.2318
[0] https://sci-hub.mksa.top/10.1002/hup.2318
It seems that heavy usage over time would do damage. That seems fairly obvious, to be honest. What would be surprising is if a single dose had long lasting negative effects.
You have to also consider that people like me are essentially broken. Being completely unable to socialise with people puts you on a path of loneliness and misery. Maybe curbing some of my brain's "abilities" is exactly what I needed. I've often noticed that stupid people are happier.
I didn't become stupid, though. If I became stupider then it doesn't matter because that is completely offset by being more able to apply my skills properly. There's no point being a genius if you can't communicate with people.
You have to also consider that people like me are essentially broken. Being completely unable to socialise with people puts you on a path of loneliness and misery. Maybe curbing some of my brain's "abilities" is exactly what I needed. I've often noticed that stupid people are happier.
I didn't become stupid, though. If I became stupider then it doesn't matter because that is completely offset by being more able to apply my skills properly. There's no point being a genius if you can't communicate with people.
I developed my social skills in a similar fashion.
I was incredibly closed off as a teenager and shy. Almost to the point of crippling social anxiety. I remember feeling anxiety even interacting with the cashier at McDonald's.
I was 19 when I went to a rave and took MDMA for the first time and it completely opened me up. I became incredibly social in that moment, talking to strangers, having a good time, and opening up emotionally. That enabled me to take more baby steps in social interactions and develop socially.
Magic mushrooms also seemed to allow me to open up. Both drugs have had positive lasting effects on me. I had stopped taking them in my early 20s, but have started experimenting with magic mushrooms again as someone in their late 30s. The shrooms renewed my openness to others.
I was incredibly closed off as a teenager and shy. Almost to the point of crippling social anxiety. I remember feeling anxiety even interacting with the cashier at McDonald's.
I was 19 when I went to a rave and took MDMA for the first time and it completely opened me up. I became incredibly social in that moment, talking to strangers, having a good time, and opening up emotionally. That enabled me to take more baby steps in social interactions and develop socially.
Magic mushrooms also seemed to allow me to open up. Both drugs have had positive lasting effects on me. I had stopped taking them in my early 20s, but have started experimenting with magic mushrooms again as someone in their late 30s. The shrooms renewed my openness to others.
MDMA and the party/festival scene in general definitely changed me for the better in this sense. I hold those experiences in high regard, and strongly believe that substances can shift your perspective and create real change in your life for the better, if done responsibly.
I will also note that every substance comes with risk, and the best way to reduce that risk is to learn and know as much as you can about the substance and how it affects you. A lot of the general education around drugs is simply "don't do it", but there are plenty of reliable non-biased resources out there. A couple off the top of my head are:
https://drugs.tripsit.me/
https://erowid.org/
I will also note that every substance comes with risk, and the best way to reduce that risk is to learn and know as much as you can about the substance and how it affects you. A lot of the general education around drugs is simply "don't do it", but there are plenty of reliable non-biased resources out there. A couple off the top of my head are:
https://drugs.tripsit.me/
https://erowid.org/
This was my first thought too, though not the only part of the puzzle for me. There was actually a study put out by MAPS recently where they found that MDMA can be effective in treating social anxiety for people on the autism spectrum.
Not the first time I’ve heard of this.
Same. Can't wait for this stuff to be studied and legalized at least for meditional use over the next 20 years (if we're being realistic on timelines for this)
It needs to be fully legalized, along with all other drugs. Prohibition only makes things worse
Decriminalized, probably. But I really don’t want to live in a world where heroin is advertised and marketed without restriction. At least not until we figure out how to make humans less fucking stupid when it comes to things that can addict us for life.
I mean, can you imagine if McDonalds marketing budget was spent pushing meth instead?
I mean, can you imagine if McDonalds marketing budget was spent pushing meth instead?
You say this like McDonalds food isn't already habit forming
Heroin and other opiates need to be available over the counter at a store. This is the only way to remove the black market and the fentanyl tainted supply. If you just decriminalize, people still won't be able to get it and will have to go through a black market.
The market doesn't need to be a free for all, we can choose to make advertising the compounds illegal but still make them available.
If you don't fully legalize, the problem never actually gets solved. Pretty much all drug problems are created by prohibition itself. Full stop.
Heroin and other opiates need to be available over the counter at a store. This is the only way to remove the black market and the fentanyl tainted supply. If you just decriminalize, people still won't be able to get it and will have to go through a black market.
The market doesn't need to be a free for all, we can choose to make advertising the compounds illegal but still make them available.
If you don't fully legalize, the problem never actually gets solved. Pretty much all drug problems are created by prohibition itself. Full stop.
re "Pretty much all drug problems are created by prohibition itself"
Isn't the US opiod crisis (not heroin specifically) massively driven by the fact that it is fairly easy to get lavish subscription on legal pain killers?
I mean I give it to you that suburbian moms on Vicodin won't roll up to a gas station with a semi-automatic, but they still OD, and that's still a drug problem.
Isn't the US opiod crisis (not heroin specifically) massively driven by the fact that it is fairly easy to get lavish subscription on legal pain killers?
I mean I give it to you that suburbian moms on Vicodin won't roll up to a gas station with a semi-automatic, but they still OD, and that's still a drug problem.
> Isn't the US opiod crisis (not heroin specifically) massively driven by the fact that it is fairly easy to get lavish subscription on legal pain killers?
No. You can get lavish amounts of food and yet not every country is filled with obese people. Maybe life is a little more complicated than a one liner.
> but they still OD, and that's still a drug problem.
People burn themselves with kettles, that's still a kettle problem.
So, what?
No. You can get lavish amounts of food and yet not every country is filled with obese people. Maybe life is a little more complicated than a one liner.
> but they still OD, and that's still a drug problem.
People burn themselves with kettles, that's still a kettle problem.
So, what?
I am not sure I follow. Obesity is much, much more prevalent in countries where food (and unhealthy food) is widely and cheaply available. Governments engage in "prohibition" of specific foods all the time, and I find that mostly commendable.
> People burn themselves with kettles, that's still a kettle problem.
> So, what?
Soo I demand that my government thinks about this problem and regulates it, which indeed it does. I would guess that an average Western country has north of fifty regulations directly related to burn hazards of household appliances.
So yes, these are indeed very good examples of government regulation preventing hurt, pain and death.
> People burn themselves with kettles, that's still a kettle problem.
> So, what?
Soo I demand that my government thinks about this problem and regulates it, which indeed it does. I would guess that an average Western country has north of fifty regulations directly related to burn hazards of household appliances.
So yes, these are indeed very good examples of government regulation preventing hurt, pain and death.
The reason that crime such as robbery is associated with drug users is drugs are too expensive and the fact that gangs control the drug trade and also commit many of these violent crimes. Making things more available should drop prices if policies are implemented well.
The US opioid crisis has been caused by a multitude of factors, including endemic poverty in some communities combined with physicians being told by producers that the compounds they were prescribing were not addictive (that was a load of shit delivered to increase profits, obviously a bad thing and we need to train physicians better on basic pharmacology). On top of that, now that restrictions have been increased on prescribing people have shifted back to the black market where nothing is regulated and you might get fentanyl hotspots in your heroin which is definitely one of the big reasons for overdoses today. Overdoses were slightly lower when pill mills were operating because people knew exactly how much of what was in the pills they get from Walgreen's or whatever.
The issues I'm referring to are the ones that have been present for much longer. These issues include things such as lack of employment due to drug users having a record, discrimination against users in general stemming from the stigma and association with violent crime (even though 90%+ of users are nonviolent), stigma in treating addiction and mental illnesses, overdoses which almost always stem from a change in how the in regular d suppliers cut their products and change potency (people get used to a certain concentration of active and if that changes they may easily use too much), and the lack of drug education due to the "just say no" ideology which essentially lied to multiple generations about the dangers and mechanisms of psychoactive compounds.
When it comes to alcohol, there are socially learned ways of managing use of the drug (ethanol) in a responsible fashion. Only some small communities have learned how to use other drugs responsibly due to the stigma preventing spread of information.
We also don't have a lot of information on the intersection of these psychoactive compounds and mental illness. Its possible that there are people who have malfunction regulation of endogenous opioids (endorphins) or their receptors which a partial agonist could be used for therapy. There is literally not a single doctor who would prescribe an opiate agonist for mental health issues because the research on things like that is all but banned due to the DEA dragging their feet and refusing to give people licensing to study the compounds (MAPS has had to sue the DEA over this issue). Combine this with funding issues, where only studies looking at downsides of psychoactive get funded and now we have an extremely skewed/biased view.
There are even more issues than I've presented here, but these are the ones at the forefront of my mind when I consider the issues of drug use today. Almost all of these issues have their root in the prohibition of these substances. It would be far easier to not only study and understand drugs without prohibition, but people would also overdose less due to having a reliable, regulated, and affordable supply. The primary issue that feeds into this which isn't due to prohibition itself is poverty, and that's a whole 'nother thing.
The US opioid crisis has been caused by a multitude of factors, including endemic poverty in some communities combined with physicians being told by producers that the compounds they were prescribing were not addictive (that was a load of shit delivered to increase profits, obviously a bad thing and we need to train physicians better on basic pharmacology). On top of that, now that restrictions have been increased on prescribing people have shifted back to the black market where nothing is regulated and you might get fentanyl hotspots in your heroin which is definitely one of the big reasons for overdoses today. Overdoses were slightly lower when pill mills were operating because people knew exactly how much of what was in the pills they get from Walgreen's or whatever.
The issues I'm referring to are the ones that have been present for much longer. These issues include things such as lack of employment due to drug users having a record, discrimination against users in general stemming from the stigma and association with violent crime (even though 90%+ of users are nonviolent), stigma in treating addiction and mental illnesses, overdoses which almost always stem from a change in how the in regular d suppliers cut their products and change potency (people get used to a certain concentration of active and if that changes they may easily use too much), and the lack of drug education due to the "just say no" ideology which essentially lied to multiple generations about the dangers and mechanisms of psychoactive compounds.
When it comes to alcohol, there are socially learned ways of managing use of the drug (ethanol) in a responsible fashion. Only some small communities have learned how to use other drugs responsibly due to the stigma preventing spread of information.
We also don't have a lot of information on the intersection of these psychoactive compounds and mental illness. Its possible that there are people who have malfunction regulation of endogenous opioids (endorphins) or their receptors which a partial agonist could be used for therapy. There is literally not a single doctor who would prescribe an opiate agonist for mental health issues because the research on things like that is all but banned due to the DEA dragging their feet and refusing to give people licensing to study the compounds (MAPS has had to sue the DEA over this issue). Combine this with funding issues, where only studies looking at downsides of psychoactive get funded and now we have an extremely skewed/biased view.
There are even more issues than I've presented here, but these are the ones at the forefront of my mind when I consider the issues of drug use today. Almost all of these issues have their root in the prohibition of these substances. It would be far easier to not only study and understand drugs without prohibition, but people would also overdose less due to having a reliable, regulated, and affordable supply. The primary issue that feeds into this which isn't due to prohibition itself is poverty, and that's a whole 'nother thing.
Thanks for the in depth answer!
> You say this like McDonalds food isn't already habit forming
I said this because McDonalds has already proven that they can do a lot of damage to people with just food.
I said this because McDonalds has already proven that they can do a lot of damage to people with just food.
Sounds like we should regulate food then maybe?
Food is regulated, so it doesn't seem you have much of a point?
I don't see any regulation on habit forming food constituents. So it seems you missed the point?
Oxytocin agonism is some good shit
To that I would add listening to Mark Farina Mushroom Jazz, Vol. 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIuW-OJY2uY
This is to get in touch with your inner mojo. Also Vol. 8 is awesome.
This is to get in touch with your inner mojo. Also Vol. 8 is awesome.
cj(10)
Not only was I awkward and shy -- but I was an extravert! I wanted to be around other people and got bored easily when I was by myself. But I didn't necessarily have the social skills to pull it off. So I was pretty miserable.
What changed?
I've thought a lot about this, and to be honest, while I would love to say that it was an intense, fulfilling journey of self-improvement ... I think what made the biggest difference was that the people around me changed.
In high school, my peers were brutal and immature. There were bullies. There were people who would be a jerk to you for no reason other than for giggles. And there was a lot of pressure to conform or at least not stick out too much.
Then college came around and I got involved in activities like the student newspaper, a co-ed a cappella group, and several other things. And the people were welcoming and actually wanted me to be a part of their group.
Then, after college, I entered the working world, and while there were always a couple of difficult personalities, the vast majority of the people I worked with were professional, welcoming, appreciated my contributions, and wanted me to succeed.
Yes, I can still be awkward at times. Through practice, I've gotten better at small talk, but I'll still trip over my own words from time to time. But the people with whom I've been fortunate to develop personal or professional relationships tend to have the maturity to accept that part of me.
What changed?
I've thought a lot about this, and to be honest, while I would love to say that it was an intense, fulfilling journey of self-improvement ... I think what made the biggest difference was that the people around me changed.
In high school, my peers were brutal and immature. There were bullies. There were people who would be a jerk to you for no reason other than for giggles. And there was a lot of pressure to conform or at least not stick out too much.
Then college came around and I got involved in activities like the student newspaper, a co-ed a cappella group, and several other things. And the people were welcoming and actually wanted me to be a part of their group.
Then, after college, I entered the working world, and while there were always a couple of difficult personalities, the vast majority of the people I worked with were professional, welcoming, appreciated my contributions, and wanted me to succeed.
Yes, I can still be awkward at times. Through practice, I've gotten better at small talk, but I'll still trip over my own words from time to time. But the people with whom I've been fortunate to develop personal or professional relationships tend to have the maturity to accept that part of me.
I second this. There's value in knowing how to behave in situations you deem as hostile, but nothing is more valuable than surrounding yourself with respectful, thoughtful and welcoming people. Doing that helped me to change hostile situations for the better, not only for myself but for other people who also struggle with them.
> Then college came around
I read a lot of such posts by people before i went to university, and boy was i surprised to find the reality can sometimes be very different. If there's any younger folks reading this, YMMV.
> Then, after college, I entered the working world
This is where it actually gets better, or at least it did for me.
I read a lot of such posts by people before i went to university, and boy was i surprised to find the reality can sometimes be very different. If there's any younger folks reading this, YMMV.
> Then, after college, I entered the working world
This is where it actually gets better, or at least it did for me.
I agree with you. One of the reasons why I think this happened for me in college was because I found some very accepting groups of people with whom I could unite around a common goal, in an almost pre-professional environment.
But there were a bunch of people on my floor freshman year who got sucked up into an entirely different social environment. They either pledged fraternities or sororities, or formed their own social groups that closely mimicked the ones they were used to in high school, which came with all of the expected drama.
So, advice for any younger folks: Just about every college has a student activity fair, where you can get to know all the clubs and groups and activities that are part of campus life. Try to find the ones that aren't 100% social, but maybe 25% social and 75% achieving some goal, whether it be putting on a musical or raising livestock or volunteering at a nursing home.
But there were a bunch of people on my floor freshman year who got sucked up into an entirely different social environment. They either pledged fraternities or sororities, or formed their own social groups that closely mimicked the ones they were used to in high school, which came with all of the expected drama.
So, advice for any younger folks: Just about every college has a student activity fair, where you can get to know all the clubs and groups and activities that are part of campus life. Try to find the ones that aren't 100% social, but maybe 25% social and 75% achieving some goal, whether it be putting on a musical or raising livestock or volunteering at a nursing home.
> Try to find the ones that aren't 100% social, but maybe 25% social and 75% achieving some goal, whether it be putting on a musical or raising livestock or volunteering at a nursing home.
Or, you know, studying. Which is ostensibly the thing why you're there in the first place...
(Obviously university is also a great time to explore and experiment, and you should do that. But especially if you're in the hard sciences, surrounding yourself with people who actually want to learn will do wonders.)
Or, you know, studying. Which is ostensibly the thing why you're there in the first place...
(Obviously university is also a great time to explore and experiment, and you should do that. But especially if you're in the hard sciences, surrounding yourself with people who actually want to learn will do wonders.)
[deleted]
I have been through this and these are things that helped me improve.
1. Show up
Make sure you show up instead of avoiding people and events. Initially it can be difficult. You may be worried if you would mess up the conversation. You might be anxious you would run out of words to talk to. And it might turn to be a little embarrassing, that's alright. Doing more and more of those interactions kills your inner fear. Getting past your fear is the first step.
2. Observe & Listen
Observe how other people talk. If you like the way someone approaches others, copy it. Imitate and see how it works out. Be observant on how others feel while you talk. Are they bored? Are they eager to talk more? Are they trying to move conversation to some other topic? Usually shy people are within their head too much they don't notice the environment and react to it.
3. Find something common
I connect with a person by finding something in common between me and that person. It could be politics, religion, engineering, events, etc etc. Find things you both care about, conversation will flow naturally.
4. Give Compliments
If you like something about a person, give them compliment. Tell them details of what you loved the most. Be specific.
It would take time, through multiple iterations, you will improve :)
Best wishes, I am confident you will be successful.
1. Show up
Make sure you show up instead of avoiding people and events. Initially it can be difficult. You may be worried if you would mess up the conversation. You might be anxious you would run out of words to talk to. And it might turn to be a little embarrassing, that's alright. Doing more and more of those interactions kills your inner fear. Getting past your fear is the first step.
2. Observe & Listen
Observe how other people talk. If you like the way someone approaches others, copy it. Imitate and see how it works out. Be observant on how others feel while you talk. Are they bored? Are they eager to talk more? Are they trying to move conversation to some other topic? Usually shy people are within their head too much they don't notice the environment and react to it.
3. Find something common
I connect with a person by finding something in common between me and that person. It could be politics, religion, engineering, events, etc etc. Find things you both care about, conversation will flow naturally.
4. Give Compliments
If you like something about a person, give them compliment. Tell them details of what you loved the most. Be specific.
It would take time, through multiple iterations, you will improve :)
Best wishes, I am confident you will be successful.
Dead on. I was going to say something along the lines of "fake it till you make it." If you pretend to be socially comfortable long enough, you'll eventually convince yourself. But this comment lays out specifically how to do that.
i would add, "5. Ask questions." if you struggle to make conversation, find one thing about the person and ask them about it. how did they decide to do what they do for a living? what about that hat made them buy it?
I forced myself to do improv theatre. When I started, I was terrified, I was shy and doing that was definitely out of my comfort zone but the group I found was very welcoming and it quickly felt fun. The great thing about improv is that you learn to simulate different situations, you learn to be careful about your posture and mannerism as you take on different roles.
For someone who was as shy as I was, it was not easy to get started but I think it's the single thing that helped me the most.
Another commenter mentions toastmasters, I tried that but it really wasn't for me, some friends had great success with it though.
For someone who was as shy as I was, it was not easy to get started but I think it's the single thing that helped me the most.
Another commenter mentions toastmasters, I tried that but it really wasn't for me, some friends had great success with it though.
There's a book Improv Wisdom written by a former leader of Stanford's improv club that I found deeply insightful. I was looking into improv to address my social anxiety a while ago, sadly this was at the start of pandemic when everything shut down. Maybe I should go for it again.
The author of that book did a Google Talk about the book some time ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABw26imw4m4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABw26imw4m4
If you like books, then “How to win friends and influence people” is great on this topic. The title is a poor choice. Don’t judge it by its title. It helps with shyness, among other things.
This is a remarkably all-out brave strategy. I'm sure you don't need the congratulations, but well done!
An also-effective approach is just to take the improv classes without ever performing on stage. That's all I did, but the lessons have stuck with me.
These days there seem to be more improv classes that are friendly to that, just people who like playing with one another. So if people are scared even by the classes, I'd suggest asking the instructor for something that's very beginner-friendly and not totally oriented on performance.
These days there seem to be more improv classes that are friendly to that, just people who like playing with one another. So if people are scared even by the classes, I'd suggest asking the instructor for something that's very beginner-friendly and not totally oriented on performance.
Noticing is the first step! A therapist can really help you as it sounds like a part of you is experiencing anxiety. Essentially you have developed a learned behavior and you have to unlearn it by replacing your habit with a new one. Part of that is say exposure therapy (meaning, just go out and meet people). It also helps to develop a framework and set of scripts for what to do which is where a therapist can come in handy (also for how you process the situation). We teach these things to kids with autism all the time.
If you need a script the easiest thing to do and understand is that people love to talk about themselves.
1. introduce yourself 2. ask their name 3. ask how they are or how their day is going 4 .... 5. continue to ask them questions as they appropriately come up.
Question 4 can be context dependent.. are you at a party of a mutual friend? Are you at a meetup? Basically use the shared environment to bootstrap the conversation. So a question could be like, "how do you know so and so" etc...
When I feel shy, I always seek out someone else seemingly shy and strike up a conversation that way.
It doesn't have to be perfect. And maybe take a friend with you who has more social awareness to help you. Tell them what your goal is.
Also if someone notices you are blushing and feeling flustered etc.. and asks you what's wrong, just take a breath and say that social situations are difficult for you but you are learning to work through them. Lots of people will be understanding. I say this as an adult. Sometimes you can be around immature folks who do not help the situation but those are people you don't really want to be around anyway.
If you need a script the easiest thing to do and understand is that people love to talk about themselves.
1. introduce yourself 2. ask their name 3. ask how they are or how their day is going 4 .... 5. continue to ask them questions as they appropriately come up.
Question 4 can be context dependent.. are you at a party of a mutual friend? Are you at a meetup? Basically use the shared environment to bootstrap the conversation. So a question could be like, "how do you know so and so" etc...
When I feel shy, I always seek out someone else seemingly shy and strike up a conversation that way.
It doesn't have to be perfect. And maybe take a friend with you who has more social awareness to help you. Tell them what your goal is.
Also if someone notices you are blushing and feeling flustered etc.. and asks you what's wrong, just take a breath and say that social situations are difficult for you but you are learning to work through them. Lots of people will be understanding. I say this as an adult. Sometimes you can be around immature folks who do not help the situation but those are people you don't really want to be around anyway.
That "and" of the "Just go out and meet people" is the part that my brain struggles with.
I can walk out of the door just fine, but my brain stops functioning when I try to think of things to do from there. I can likewise handle meeting new people if I somehow end up in a situation where that happens. It's just doing that intentionally that I have so far been unable to accomplish.
I can walk out of the door just fine, but my brain stops functioning when I try to think of things to do from there. I can likewise handle meeting new people if I somehow end up in a situation where that happens. It's just doing that intentionally that I have so far been unable to accomplish.
I would pick things that align with your interests. Go to a museum, go to a play that has an intermission, go skiing, pick up a club sport, meetups, cooking classes, book signing, improv class, music class, fishing class, board game nights...
Lots of things to try.
Lots of things to try.
Everything I can get my brain interested in is a solo activity. I feel like whenever I try to even think about doing something that requires me to initiate contact with people, some unconscious part of me "resets" my thoughts and they just get stuck in a useless loop. On the rare occasion that I manage to override that and go somewhere, I am unable to engage with people even though I want to.
I don't hate interacting with people; quite the opposite in fact. I just for some unknown reason am seemingly completely incapable of initiating interaction with unfamiliar people (and even initiating anything with people I know is rare for me to do).
I don't hate interacting with people; quite the opposite in fact. I just for some unknown reason am seemingly completely incapable of initiating interaction with unfamiliar people (and even initiating anything with people I know is rare for me to do).
I would encourage you to spend time in those spaces with no intention to interact. Just go and spend time observing your thoughts and feelings. If you feel like you don't have much vocabulary for your emotions, two book I really recommend are Brene Brown's "Atlas of the Heart" [1], where a researcher names, describes, and compares the various emotions, and "The Emotion Thesaurus" [2], a writer's guide that includes a lot of description that can help with pattern-matching.
Once you have a handle on the feelings and what triggers them, I think you'll get some insight into the currently unknown reasons. I'd be you'll also have theories on how to work around it, but if not, a good therapist can help.
[1] https://brenebrown.com/book/atlas-of-the-heart/
[2] https://www.amazon.com/Emotion-Thesaurus-Writers-Character-E...
Once you have a handle on the feelings and what triggers them, I think you'll get some insight into the currently unknown reasons. I'd be you'll also have theories on how to work around it, but if not, a good therapist can help.
[1] https://brenebrown.com/book/atlas-of-the-heart/
[2] https://www.amazon.com/Emotion-Thesaurus-Writers-Character-E...
What things get your "brain interested", if I may ask?
The "doing that intentionally" bit is something I think you sort of have to roll with; some days are good, some days are bad.
I've all sorts of strategies, but if I have no explicit purpose at some event I struggle with getting out of the house, and I'm just not enough of a dog person to get a dog.
But if you go out on the good days -- which is all really anyone does! -- then people will remember you if you only pop in to some event briefly on your bad days.
I've all sorts of strategies, but if I have no explicit purpose at some event I struggle with getting out of the house, and I'm just not enough of a dog person to get a dog.
But if you go out on the good days -- which is all really anyone does! -- then people will remember you if you only pop in to some event briefly on your bad days.
If OP is making the effort to ask, I'd also toss out the option of finding a life coach.
In my personal experience and opinion, therapists seem to be... less aggressive / more tolerant of neurodivergent behavior, in a way that I didn't find as productive.
I was looking for someone who I could tell "I want to X" and would help me make that happen, less "I feel bad about my inability to X".
In my personal experience and opinion, therapists seem to be... less aggressive / more tolerant of neurodivergent behavior, in a way that I didn't find as productive.
I was looking for someone who I could tell "I want to X" and would help me make that happen, less "I feel bad about my inability to X".
Decades of practice. What comes naturally to the neurotypicals at age 14, may take until middle age for a geek to learn by trial and painful error. Unfortunately where interaction with the attractive gender is concerned, awkwardness and painful error may be judged very harshly indeed, these days.
Accepting yourself as you are is required. Get over thinking you need to turn yourself into someone different. It took until about age 30 for me to fully accept who I am.
An occasional change of environment does help, since you can leave all that rejection - judged as the geek outsider - baggage behind and can start with a clean slate at your current social skill level.
A little bit of alcohol in social interactions can also help. I was strictly a nondrinker, but at one neurotypical type party I took the hint and had a few drinks. Not enough to get drunk, but enough to get comfortable.
On the other hand, if none of the above really apply, and you're just an introvert, then learn to live with it. You'll never turn yourself into an extrovert and you'll never really enjoy "working" an unfamiliar crowd to make new insta-friends. That's OK.
Accepting yourself as you are is required. Get over thinking you need to turn yourself into someone different. It took until about age 30 for me to fully accept who I am.
An occasional change of environment does help, since you can leave all that rejection - judged as the geek outsider - baggage behind and can start with a clean slate at your current social skill level.
A little bit of alcohol in social interactions can also help. I was strictly a nondrinker, but at one neurotypical type party I took the hint and had a few drinks. Not enough to get drunk, but enough to get comfortable.
On the other hand, if none of the above really apply, and you're just an introvert, then learn to live with it. You'll never turn yourself into an extrovert and you'll never really enjoy "working" an unfamiliar crowd to make new insta-friends. That's OK.
I've likewise gotten better with decades of practice, but my biggest problem seems to be that my brain simply doesn't have enough overall "social bandwidth" to function normally in-person interactions. If I'm paying attention to your body language or tone of voice or gaze, I'm not paying attention to your words, and vice versa. None of it ever became "automatic" like it seems to be for most people.
In my case something that happens sometimes: Meet someone new, usually the very high social skill kind that can charm anyone into instantly feeling they're their best friend, and have a long, stimulating conversation. A few days later I've forgotten all about it.
A year later, someone I've never met before (right?) hails me and knows all about me. Super awkward. Because they remember it all, effortlessly. Whereas I, social dues paid, forgot all about it again.
A year later, someone I've never met before (right?) hails me and knows all about me. Super awkward. Because they remember it all, effortlessly. Whereas I, social dues paid, forgot all about it again.
Try volunteering somewhere.
People are just happy enough that you're donating your time and effort that you can be more sure they won't mind your self-perceived inadequacies, even if you think they're noticeable.
Having repeated positive interactions in a pretty reliable context like that can help give you a better subconscious ideation of what new people think of you. Volunteering will also improve your self concept as a good person who is likable, and worthy of being treated well.
People are just happy enough that you're donating your time and effort that you can be more sure they won't mind your self-perceived inadequacies, even if you think they're noticeable.
Having repeated positive interactions in a pretty reliable context like that can help give you a better subconscious ideation of what new people think of you. Volunteering will also improve your self concept as a good person who is likable, and worthy of being treated well.
Thanks, will put this on my to do list this week.
Just please commit to it. I suspect organizations that use volunteers would rather have someone reliably there than someone who shows up a few times and quits.
That shouldn't matter unless the organization gives a clear expectation of the commitment level the volunteer would need to provide. Most places prefer any/all volunteers they can get (remember it's free labor and typically spawned by a person wanting to do something good for a community)
They still don't like spending half the time training people just to have them not come back. No one like a rotating cast of tech workers who show up just to make themselves feel better.
One observation I would make is that many of the people who are crucial to the organisation of social events are themselves socially awkward.
The instigator often is not, but they will be surrounded by people who are, and who need a little thing to do at the event so they can take part at all.
I found ways to be involved at a music festival for more than a decade -- the photography, the website, running general errands etc.
Going to social events as a photographer was an explicit tactic; camera as prop.
Find a way to help other people be social and they will find a way to include you that doesn't make you feel awkward.
Keep at it though -- merely getting to this stage where you're looking for techniques is a very positive step.
Also, a thing I learned from a kid who wrote a book on Aspergers that is basically true: if you need to hold eye contact longer than a brief moment, it takes most people a long time to spot that you're looking at the bridge of their nose, not their eyes.
The instigator often is not, but they will be surrounded by people who are, and who need a little thing to do at the event so they can take part at all.
I found ways to be involved at a music festival for more than a decade -- the photography, the website, running general errands etc.
Going to social events as a photographer was an explicit tactic; camera as prop.
Find a way to help other people be social and they will find a way to include you that doesn't make you feel awkward.
Keep at it though -- merely getting to this stage where you're looking for techniques is a very positive step.
Also, a thing I learned from a kid who wrote a book on Aspergers that is basically true: if you need to hold eye contact longer than a brief moment, it takes most people a long time to spot that you're looking at the bridge of their nose, not their eyes.
Have you tried Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT)? It's best done with some professional oversight from a trained therapist to start -- especially because some issues may need pharmacological interventions -- but there are app-based options that can make it easy to dip a toe in daily practice.
Programmers tend to be quite rational people, and I've found CBT gave me a set of rational tools to interrogate my irrational feelings around social anxiety. It can feel like a dark cloud is hanging over you, and when you externalize the feeling and identify "fallacies" with those feelings then they become less nebulous and more manageable.
An example: a decade ago I remember sitting on a mostly empty BART train and feeling very low as I watched people get on and off at each stop. When I externalized the feeling it was simply "No one wants to sit near me", and once I'd written it down it became easier to interrogate -- I don't want to sit immediately next to anyone on an empty BART car either, why should I expect that others' decisions about where to sit are because of me and not because there's just plenty of space to spread out? Suddenly that feeling evaporated.
Once you've worked with a therapist and built up some habits, it becomes easier to identify those feelings on the fly and mitigate them. I rarely do written CBT journaling these days, it's mostly something I can react to in-the-moment through lots of practice.
Again: it's recommended to talk to a trained therapist and see if CBT is right for you (or whether you may need/want to try medication as well) but it's been one of the best self-care things I've ever done.
Programmers tend to be quite rational people, and I've found CBT gave me a set of rational tools to interrogate my irrational feelings around social anxiety. It can feel like a dark cloud is hanging over you, and when you externalize the feeling and identify "fallacies" with those feelings then they become less nebulous and more manageable.
An example: a decade ago I remember sitting on a mostly empty BART train and feeling very low as I watched people get on and off at each stop. When I externalized the feeling it was simply "No one wants to sit near me", and once I'd written it down it became easier to interrogate -- I don't want to sit immediately next to anyone on an empty BART car either, why should I expect that others' decisions about where to sit are because of me and not because there's just plenty of space to spread out? Suddenly that feeling evaporated.
Once you've worked with a therapist and built up some habits, it becomes easier to identify those feelings on the fly and mitigate them. I rarely do written CBT journaling these days, it's mostly something I can react to in-the-moment through lots of practice.
Again: it's recommended to talk to a trained therapist and see if CBT is right for you (or whether you may need/want to try medication as well) but it's been one of the best self-care things I've ever done.
I've not really had any success trying to speak to therapists. Just getting an appointment feels like trying to draw blood from a stone. It costs more than my rent just to see somebody for an hour a week, and the waiting lists are literally months long. The one time I got to the end of a waiting list, I didn't check my emails the day I was pinged for it, and by the next morning my place had already been offered to the next person. This is all after a hospital referral for severe depression, I can't imagine how in the hell somebody could get an appointment for the kind of self improvement people talk about. Presumably by being very wealthy indeed...
I have been diagnosed with social anxiety, general anxiety, and depression. I've always felt socially awkward and shy. However, at 35 years of age I was finally diagnosed as ADHD-PI (predominantly inattentive). Treating that has basically eliminated the social anxiety and shyness, since it seems those existed through the lens of the untreated ADHD-PI. I'm still me and am surely introverted, but I can function in a social setting without feeling awkward or shy... the interaction feels natural and honest. While the folks around me noticed a bit of change, I noticed an enjoyment of life that I never seemed to experience before. I feel I am a better father to my children, which is the most meaningful part of the change to me.
How was it treated?
Learning to small talk is one of the most valuable skills a person can have in life and will allow you to connect with more people than you thought possible.
It all starts with very basic cues and the great thing is you can practice each and every day.
Start off by simply looking at e.g. the cashier at the store and ask "how's your day going?", or make a small quip about the weather e.g. "it sure is cold today, can't wait for Spring!".
Make this a daily practice even when you aren't feeling comfortable. Most people are happy to respond to simple friendly gestures and you'll slowly build confidence in your ability to connect with others.
Practice, practice, practice.
- Extremely extroverted introvert.
It all starts with very basic cues and the great thing is you can practice each and every day.
Start off by simply looking at e.g. the cashier at the store and ask "how's your day going?", or make a small quip about the weather e.g. "it sure is cold today, can't wait for Spring!".
Make this a daily practice even when you aren't feeling comfortable. Most people are happy to respond to simple friendly gestures and you'll slowly build confidence in your ability to connect with others.
Practice, practice, practice.
- Extremely extroverted introvert.
The phrase “small talk“ pains me. I never ask a question for which I am not interested in the answer, and I think if you listen carefully before you say something about the weather you might hear something deep and genuine that you would have otherwise missed.
Now I usually do ask how the other person is, but I am always listening for the real answer. I never ask it without wanting to hear what they say. (And if I’m feeling bad or don’t want to hear their answer I do not ask at all.) Usually they give automatic responses, but if they don’t, I try to give them the respect of questioning or agreeing with them in a way that they know they were heard.
Now I usually do ask how the other person is, but I am always listening for the real answer. I never ask it without wanting to hear what they say. (And if I’m feeling bad or don’t want to hear their answer I do not ask at all.) Usually they give automatic responses, but if they don’t, I try to give them the respect of questioning or agreeing with them in a way that they know they were heard.
Salient point about listening/reading their response, another tool in the social/life tool belt.
Re: weather, its not really about that, it's just opening the door that more often than not leads to a pleasant, random conversation with a total stranger.
Re: weather, its not really about that, it's just opening the door that more often than not leads to a pleasant, random conversation with a total stranger.
I believe the significance or relevance of the "weather topic" depends on location. There are some places where the weather never really changes, and is indeed unremarkable, like southern California. But some regions can have drastic changes in weather, and some places the weather can kill. For example in the midwest US the weather can go from blizzard conditions to sunny and warm in 24 hours or a strong storm can destroy crops and ruin livelyhoods for thousands of farms. In tornado alley a "pop up" severe thunderstorm can throw off tornadoes and level towns. As someone who's lost family members to tornadoes, the weather is a topic I'm interested in.
> I never ask a question for which I am not interested in the answer
I also used to have this attitude, until I realized it was handicapping me. The point is to get a conversation going, and sometimes the way people are comfortable doing this is through the banal ritual of asking each other questions they don't really care about the answers for, and faking that they do care. It's illogical, but then again, so apparently is one's desire to just have a connection with somebody rather than nobody. Putting the pressure on yourself to only ask deep and genuine questions of people you don't even know is just going to result in you deciding you have nothing important enough to ask yet, and sitting in awkward silence, or never approaching someone at all. It's the conversational version of "the perfect is the enemy of the good."
I also used to have this attitude, until I realized it was handicapping me. The point is to get a conversation going, and sometimes the way people are comfortable doing this is through the banal ritual of asking each other questions they don't really care about the answers for, and faking that they do care. It's illogical, but then again, so apparently is one's desire to just have a connection with somebody rather than nobody. Putting the pressure on yourself to only ask deep and genuine questions of people you don't even know is just going to result in you deciding you have nothing important enough to ask yet, and sitting in awkward silence, or never approaching someone at all. It's the conversational version of "the perfect is the enemy of the good."
> I never ask a question for which I am not interested in the answer
Where I am, its common to say "how are you?" as a stand in for "hello", that is, without the expectation of an answer or even further conversation if you're just greeting someone in passing. Some time ago, I started making a point to actually respond and ask them how they are back, I often do this to cashiers in shops for example. For the most part, they seem to appreciate it. However, lately, I've been caught off guard a bit because there's one guy that works at my gym and he always greets me like that and out of habit, I stop, answer and ask him how he is, but he's not expecting further conversation since he was just expecting me to say "hi". Made for some awkward pauses until I adjusted my behavior to match his :)
Where I am, its common to say "how are you?" as a stand in for "hello", that is, without the expectation of an answer or even further conversation if you're just greeting someone in passing. Some time ago, I started making a point to actually respond and ask them how they are back, I often do this to cashiers in shops for example. For the most part, they seem to appreciate it. However, lately, I've been caught off guard a bit because there's one guy that works at my gym and he always greets me like that and out of habit, I stop, answer and ask him how he is, but he's not expecting further conversation since he was just expecting me to say "hi". Made for some awkward pauses until I adjusted my behavior to match his :)
There's no such thing as "small talk".
All talk is significant.
If it is anything, "small talk" is talk that you don't mind other people hearing and joining. And if you think about that at a distance, it makes it very big talk indeed.
All talk is significant.
If it is anything, "small talk" is talk that you don't mind other people hearing and joining. And if you think about that at a distance, it makes it very big talk indeed.
To me, "small talk" is mundane chit-chat that you do mostly to be polite or to break the ice. "Hi <neighbour>, weathers been awfully cold lately hasn't it? Yes, can't wait till summer. Did you watch the game yesterday? Anyway catch you later!" kind of things.
Yeah. It's small on that level.
But it's not small if that is the conversation that allows someone you both haven't yet met to feel at ease in joining in to chat with you. That makes it powerful, because it leads on to people introducing themselves, more common ground being found, etc.
Also, it might be the only kind of talk that can "break the ice" in the general case. I mean -- imagine replacing small talk with a deep question about politics or science or music theory. It couldn't work so well in general.
That is what I mean about its significance. Almost all of us exist solely because of small talk between our until-then-unknown-to-each-other parents, for example.
"Small" talk is the beginning of almost everything.
But it's not small if that is the conversation that allows someone you both haven't yet met to feel at ease in joining in to chat with you. That makes it powerful, because it leads on to people introducing themselves, more common ground being found, etc.
Also, it might be the only kind of talk that can "break the ice" in the general case. I mean -- imagine replacing small talk with a deep question about politics or science or music theory. It couldn't work so well in general.
That is what I mean about its significance. Almost all of us exist solely because of small talk between our until-then-unknown-to-each-other parents, for example.
"Small" talk is the beginning of almost everything.
I see what you're saying. I agree, if it helps break the ice or is the "introduction" for further conversation, then it serves an important purpose. Even in the case of maintaining some kind of friendliness with a neighbour, that serves a purpose too, I suppose.
I travel a lot for business and end up riding Uber a lot. I go out of my way to stroke up conversations with the Uber drivers. I ask them about their music. How long they have been in the city. Some spots to visit. How they like driving for Uber.
The last question sparks a lot of conversations. Many do it just as a side gig and for flexibility. It’s the only time that you get to talk to complete strangers while they are work for a prolong period of time.
The last question sparks a lot of conversations. Many do it just as a side gig and for flexibility. It’s the only time that you get to talk to complete strangers while they are work for a prolong period of time.
I'm the same way and I've had some of the most amazing conversations of my life with Uber drivers!
If anyone here wants some real life training on social interaction, take a once or twice per week part-time cashier job at CVS or Walgreens. Don't go for Walmart / Target, or a smaller convenience store. The middle ground of CVS and Walgreens is ideal, it has just enough traffic, but not too much. Do that for six months or so, and engage the customers sincerely. You'll have a couple hundred opportunities per week to talk to strangers and you'll get paid for it; they'll overwhelmingly be nice, older women customers, and many will appreciate the small talk.
You'll deal with shoplifters (confrontation). You'll deal with people that are upset and or having a bad day. You'll deal with mean customers occasionally. You'll deal with obnoxious coupon types that will drive you crazy. 97% of the customers will be pleasant, and in a slight hurry. You'll help solve their problems. You'll deal with communication challenges from time to time (slurred speech, health issues, different accents, etc). You'll interact with customers from a very wide variety of socio-economic backgrounds (from poor EBT card users to rich people, from teens to grandparents). So you'll see a broad spectrum of social interaction, in a quite safe environment overall.
One could take a paid phone-help job (support line of one type or another) to chat with lots of people, however the additional nice thing about the cashier job is that it's in-person. You also have a counter separating you from the customers (a bit of a shield for some introverts), and other employees in the store to back you up if anything unusual happens. The part-time cashier job is also not overly important to the store, so if you're working only one or two days per week you won't have very many other tasks put on your shoulders (which full-time employees will have).
You'll deal with shoplifters (confrontation). You'll deal with people that are upset and or having a bad day. You'll deal with mean customers occasionally. You'll deal with obnoxious coupon types that will drive you crazy. 97% of the customers will be pleasant, and in a slight hurry. You'll help solve their problems. You'll deal with communication challenges from time to time (slurred speech, health issues, different accents, etc). You'll interact with customers from a very wide variety of socio-economic backgrounds (from poor EBT card users to rich people, from teens to grandparents). So you'll see a broad spectrum of social interaction, in a quite safe environment overall.
One could take a paid phone-help job (support line of one type or another) to chat with lots of people, however the additional nice thing about the cashier job is that it's in-person. You also have a counter separating you from the customers (a bit of a shield for some introverts), and other employees in the store to back you up if anything unusual happens. The part-time cashier job is also not overly important to the store, so if you're working only one or two days per week you won't have very many other tasks put on your shoulders (which full-time employees will have).
Other advice here is good, but I think it's worth pointing out that psychology, spirituality, and religion contain the tools for working on problems like this.
Fundamentally: you are afraid, so you will want to work with tools that work with fear. That's probably most of them.
Prayer, psychedelics, meditation, any of the thousands of healing traditions, shamanic traditions, psychoanalysis, personal development methodologies.
What's important is to open yourself to the possibility that life could be a lot better, and that there are more avenues to achieving that than you can count. Stay curious and try things.
Fundamentally: you are afraid, so you will want to work with tools that work with fear. That's probably most of them.
Prayer, psychedelics, meditation, any of the thousands of healing traditions, shamanic traditions, psychoanalysis, personal development methodologies.
What's important is to open yourself to the possibility that life could be a lot better, and that there are more avenues to achieving that than you can count. Stay curious and try things.
I got over my awkwardness waiting tables. You just gotta interact with people, all sorts of people. That and coping with chefs, who in my experience are frequently sadistic maniacs. It was tough, but I came out completely changed, and I absolutely loved that part of my life.
Toastmasters
Advantages include * can be in person or remote * safe, businesslike environment with well-defined structure * no need to talk about anything personal * supportive for the very shy - go at your own pace * also challenging for those who don't think of themselves as shy - but have trouble delivering a 7 minute memorized speech in front of a large audience judging their performance
Advantages include * can be in person or remote * safe, businesslike environment with well-defined structure * no need to talk about anything personal * supportive for the very shy - go at your own pace * also challenging for those who don't think of themselves as shy - but have trouble delivering a 7 minute memorized speech in front of a large audience judging their performance
That doesn’t sound like it would help with every day awkwardness, does it? I presume that’s what OP wanted help with.
Public presentation training (public speeches, presentations, etc) will help enormously with every day social awkwardness, especially if you do it regularly and in varying ways (don't do the same thing, same speech, to the same people over and over again; if you do the same thing over and over again, you may just be training a sort of fake social muscle memory).
It's quite rare that you can conquer a public crowd but you can't deal with mundane every day social situations (I'm sure there are exceptions, it's just a rare combination).
The memorized speech part isn't ideal over time though. To get started that's fine, however it should be a written speech and intentionally improvized after a few experiences with doing it; and then it should be entirely improvized (and a bit shorter) occasionally as well.
It's quite rare that you can conquer a public crowd but you can't deal with mundane every day social situations (I'm sure there are exceptions, it's just a rare combination).
The memorized speech part isn't ideal over time though. To get started that's fine, however it should be a written speech and intentionally improvized after a few experiences with doing it; and then it should be entirely improvized (and a bit shorter) occasionally as well.
I was in toastmasters for several years and it cured my shyness. People now compliment me on my ability to tell stories for instance. It's effected a noticeable change.
It really does. It's regular practice with supportive people.
And it's structured, so if you are shy about sudden surprise situations, it can be comforting to know what is expected.
It's not a panacea, but it's easy to get started, accessible and designed to help you be more comfortable talking.
Try it, if you want to talk to people more.
And it's structured, so if you are shy about sudden surprise situations, it can be comforting to know what is expected.
It's not a panacea, but it's easy to get started, accessible and designed to help you be more comfortable talking.
Try it, if you want to talk to people more.
> And it's structured, so if you are shy about sudden surprise situations, it can be comforting to know what is expected
That’s what I mean, I believe people like the OP tend to be concerned about daily life, random encounters, completely unstructured situations. Just not sure how much public speaking carries over.
I think it’s quite possible to become a great public speaker, singer, actor or similar, and still be shy in every day life. It seems like largely separate skillsets to me. But I’m no expert.
That’s what I mean, I believe people like the OP tend to be concerned about daily life, random encounters, completely unstructured situations. Just not sure how much public speaking carries over.
I think it’s quite possible to become a great public speaker, singer, actor or similar, and still be shy in every day life. It seems like largely separate skillsets to me. But I’m no expert.
I too used to be awkward, anxious, and not finding within me the possibility to show my true self in new social contexts.
A few things that made a difference:
1. Moving. I moved many times in my twenties and each time I had new neighbors and coworkers was slightly easier. Practice works, and it was a relief the first times to start fresh with new people. I was also following a path that I had actively chosen for myself, and this gave me more self-esteem and made it easier to introduce myself. Especially moving into the city made a big difference with many shops and offices around me. Here was all these fancy-dressed people roaming there in whose company I often felt self-doubt. And now I was seeing them from my window while I was eating breakfast/dinner. In their rush to and from work they seemed to drop the mask of self-esteem and looked vulnerable instead.
2. Getting kids. This caused my brain to go "I don't care anymore what you think about me since my kid is the most important thing right now, and I'm too tired from too few hours of sleep to feel awkward anymore."
3. Age. With age most people have gone through some hardships (losing loved ones, psychological health, bad relationships/friendships, etc). With this comes a greater value on just being your true self and acting accordingly. When you can show some vulnerability, it takes some stress of others that can acknowledge to themselves their own insecurity and vulnerability. Now they know they are not alone, and that maybe there is nothing wrong with them since you too exist.
I don't know if only the gym helps, I think all kinds of diverse experiences help getting a sense of belonging among others (which is maybe different from self-esteem?)
That said, there is nothing wrong with feeling discomfort in some settings. You have your innermost values and you will not be fully compatible with everyone. Don't let others limit you or take advantage of you. Make the choice to be you and live fully on your terms.
A few things that made a difference:
1. Moving. I moved many times in my twenties and each time I had new neighbors and coworkers was slightly easier. Practice works, and it was a relief the first times to start fresh with new people. I was also following a path that I had actively chosen for myself, and this gave me more self-esteem and made it easier to introduce myself. Especially moving into the city made a big difference with many shops and offices around me. Here was all these fancy-dressed people roaming there in whose company I often felt self-doubt. And now I was seeing them from my window while I was eating breakfast/dinner. In their rush to and from work they seemed to drop the mask of self-esteem and looked vulnerable instead.
2. Getting kids. This caused my brain to go "I don't care anymore what you think about me since my kid is the most important thing right now, and I'm too tired from too few hours of sleep to feel awkward anymore."
3. Age. With age most people have gone through some hardships (losing loved ones, psychological health, bad relationships/friendships, etc). With this comes a greater value on just being your true self and acting accordingly. When you can show some vulnerability, it takes some stress of others that can acknowledge to themselves their own insecurity and vulnerability. Now they know they are not alone, and that maybe there is nothing wrong with them since you too exist.
I don't know if only the gym helps, I think all kinds of diverse experiences help getting a sense of belonging among others (which is maybe different from self-esteem?)
That said, there is nothing wrong with feeling discomfort in some settings. You have your innermost values and you will not be fully compatible with everyone. Don't let others limit you or take advantage of you. Make the choice to be you and live fully on your terms.
#2 is so true. I think it also is grounding; my purpose is clear and clear to others. I don’t have to question my reason for being at all.
Martial arts helped me a huge amount. You spend a lot of time doing very silly looking things in the company of others. There's a lot of physical contact with strangers. You teach and coach each other. You also gain a huge amount of confidence in yourself, that grows as you get better. It's a social activity without having the burden of being a team sport.
Been a sensei for about ten years now, so I'm also used to standing in front of large groups of people and delivering instruction, demonstrating techniques on a regular basis, planning lessons with other instructors.
Take one up, and don't fret about which one is the best. I started with TKD and Aikido, but now train in Karate and HEMA. It really doesn't matter which one you choose, just find a class you're comfortable being at.
Been a sensei for about ten years now, so I'm also used to standing in front of large groups of people and delivering instruction, demonstrating techniques on a regular basis, planning lessons with other instructors.
Take one up, and don't fret about which one is the best. I started with TKD and Aikido, but now train in Karate and HEMA. It really doesn't matter which one you choose, just find a class you're comfortable being at.
Your milage may vary depending on which martial art you choose. In a very traditional studio, you may know your fellow students only by rank. None of this is to take away from the parent's point. Even in that environment, the stuff about physical contact and being awkward in front of others, all of it is true, and all of it is beneficial. Just don't expect that you will necessarily find friends in the same place you find your social confidence.
Yep, I was talking about social confidence and not necessarily making friends. You might very well make friends at a martial arts class, or just learn to deal with people you don't actually like, but have to fight with in a friendly way. I've had really good mates break my ribs, and people I don't actually like hug me at the end of a bout. It all helps.
Self-confidence should not be confused with self-esteem.
Self-confidence is inversely correlated to the power of your superego.
Your superego is trying to protect you against harmful social mistakes. It strengthen itself when you are hurt (socially) and is usually modeled after the paternal authority and is often perceived as a kind of internal moral figure.
Gaining self confidence is the same thing as loosening the grip of the superego.
You can do that with alcohol, to some extent, but there are many undesirable side effects, including worsening your self confidence in the aftermath.
My advise would be to experiment doing "risky" things in a controlled environment where you won't be hurt.
There is no magic trick, unfortunately, success is what lead to self confidence.
(That is, teaching your superego that you can do social things without shooting yourself in the foot)
Self-confidence is inversely correlated to the power of your superego.
Your superego is trying to protect you against harmful social mistakes. It strengthen itself when you are hurt (socially) and is usually modeled after the paternal authority and is often perceived as a kind of internal moral figure.
Gaining self confidence is the same thing as loosening the grip of the superego.
You can do that with alcohol, to some extent, but there are many undesirable side effects, including worsening your self confidence in the aftermath.
My advise would be to experiment doing "risky" things in a controlled environment where you won't be hurt.
There is no magic trick, unfortunately, success is what lead to self confidence.
(That is, teaching your superego that you can do social things without shooting yourself in the foot)
In my younger days I was a lot like you and I personally solved it by getting into martial arts. Training for a few years and finally getting your black belt gets you confidence in several ways:
- It gets you fit, which is a good thing for attractiveness :-)
- It trains you in leadership - you start off as a student but by black belt you're running classes, or at least parts of classes
- It gives you confidence that you can defend yourself, but more importantly, if necessary you can defend your family, your friends, your SO, etc. This changes the way you move through the world. Note: you don't suddenly become invincible, you also learn the humility of encountering people in training that are still far superior to you, but these become less and less over time.
- To get your black belt is transformative, and the equivalent of trial-by-fire/coming-of-age rituals that have faded from our culture: you have to work hard for years to get to that point, and you have had your attitude and skills genuinely tested and evaluated before being granted each belt. And it was all you, no-one else can do it for you, you can't buy it, there are no shortcuts. This is one of the few things you can achieve that you can genuinely call all your own, and it feels good, and it is a massive boost to how you see yourself in the world.
Basically if you find the right martial art you get all the benefits of going to the gym plus learning a valuable new skill, and transforming your outlook of yourself along the way.
- It gets you fit, which is a good thing for attractiveness :-)
- It trains you in leadership - you start off as a student but by black belt you're running classes, or at least parts of classes
- It gives you confidence that you can defend yourself, but more importantly, if necessary you can defend your family, your friends, your SO, etc. This changes the way you move through the world. Note: you don't suddenly become invincible, you also learn the humility of encountering people in training that are still far superior to you, but these become less and less over time.
- To get your black belt is transformative, and the equivalent of trial-by-fire/coming-of-age rituals that have faded from our culture: you have to work hard for years to get to that point, and you have had your attitude and skills genuinely tested and evaluated before being granted each belt. And it was all you, no-one else can do it for you, you can't buy it, there are no shortcuts. This is one of the few things you can achieve that you can genuinely call all your own, and it feels good, and it is a massive boost to how you see yourself in the world.
Basically if you find the right martial art you get all the benefits of going to the gym plus learning a valuable new skill, and transforming your outlook of yourself along the way.
Some tricks that helped me:
- practice in situations with low stakes (for example there are social situations where everybody meet for a short time and never again - these are perfect cause even if you panic and make a scene - it's no big deal - for me it was fantasy conventions - added bonus is that there's stuff to do and a lot of people there are awkward too)
- practice the part you can deal with first (for example I had problems with home parties because at the beginning there will be only a few people and talking with them would put a lot of attention on me which I found hard back then - so I would go to bathroom for a moment and go back when others started talking about something and the attention was shifted - this made it much easier to just experience talking with random people without having to deal with the hard part at the beginning)
- after you're fine in one context - challenge yourself in other contexts (I still have some situations I never practiced or that last happened when I was still the weird teenager in high school - and I can be very awkward in these situations which usually takes me by surprise - but they happen very rarely now)
- expose yourself on purpose - ultimately the goal is to be able to behave naturally without pretending to be someone else. When you're feeling good enough with someone - telling some of the "awkward stories" is a good way to get there - you show them your real self and "disarm" them preventively (vast majority of people won't attack you about stuff you share with them as a funny story even if it's really weird).
- practice in situations with low stakes (for example there are social situations where everybody meet for a short time and never again - these are perfect cause even if you panic and make a scene - it's no big deal - for me it was fantasy conventions - added bonus is that there's stuff to do and a lot of people there are awkward too)
- practice the part you can deal with first (for example I had problems with home parties because at the beginning there will be only a few people and talking with them would put a lot of attention on me which I found hard back then - so I would go to bathroom for a moment and go back when others started talking about something and the attention was shifted - this made it much easier to just experience talking with random people without having to deal with the hard part at the beginning)
- after you're fine in one context - challenge yourself in other contexts (I still have some situations I never practiced or that last happened when I was still the weird teenager in high school - and I can be very awkward in these situations which usually takes me by surprise - but they happen very rarely now)
- expose yourself on purpose - ultimately the goal is to be able to behave naturally without pretending to be someone else. When you're feeling good enough with someone - telling some of the "awkward stories" is a good way to get there - you show them your real self and "disarm" them preventively (vast majority of people won't attack you about stuff you share with them as a funny story even if it's really weird).
Just stop caring so much about what you and others think of you. I lot of shyness and awkwardness can be due to overwhelming self-awareness and a misinterpreted projected view of what others think of you. People don't spend their day thinking about their interaction with you. People interact and then move on. If they don't, then they're dealing with the same things.
Just be and stop thinking about being.
Just be and stop thinking about being.
1. Young people are very concerned about what others think about them
2. Middle aged people stop caring what others think about them
3. Old people realize that nobody thinks about them
2. Middle aged people stop caring what others think about them
3. Old people realize that nobody thinks about them
I would actually recommend dropping this line of questioning. It's perfectionist. And treating it as a problem that needs to be solved (in effect treating you as a problem to be solved) just puts extra scrutiny/attention/pressure on it that will make it worse. It's just a habit that you will grow out of naturally with more experience around people. And that will happen faster if you forgive yourself, accept yourself as you are, and accept each situation as it is and each person as they are. A lot of situations are inherently awkward, will be less than perfect, and will bear no resemblance to the snappy scripted dialog in TV/movies. Wishing things were different from how they are, is 9 times out of 10 where the problem itself comes from - in your case being in an awkward situation, and being hyper-aware that it's awkward. Younger children are awkward but don't know it, and most of them seem happy enough. Forget about it. Everybody is at some level of gracefulness. Is everybody "awkward" who isn't perfect? Even Olympic figure skaters probably stub their toes on their coffee-table legs.
The other thing to realize is that the awkwardness is an inward-looking and (to apply a sort of judgmental slant on it) ultimately kind of self-indulgent habit. People around you are probably just as nervous and awkward as you, and seeking signs that it's okay and safe to be themselves. What signals are you giving them? You could be a leader to them, showing them the way. Be curious about them, reach out and ask them how they're doing, take an interest in them and what they have to say. That's the best way to forget about you, i.e. literally lose your self-consciousness. If nothing else it will at least take the spotlight off of you for a few seconds while they talk, which might be a relief. But people really appreciate when you take an interest in them, and they also appreciate (this will sound a touch cynical) the opportunity to talk about themselves. You will be well-liked. Although in the long run just don't give too much slack to people who latch onto you as a "good listener" and never give you a chance to talk! They should be willing to let you talk sometimes. And by the same token you should be ready and willing to share about yourself, not just asking questions about others like an interrogator. But in general, start with asking about and caring about others; that's the foundation of every meaningful relationship anyway.
The other thing to realize is that the awkwardness is an inward-looking and (to apply a sort of judgmental slant on it) ultimately kind of self-indulgent habit. People around you are probably just as nervous and awkward as you, and seeking signs that it's okay and safe to be themselves. What signals are you giving them? You could be a leader to them, showing them the way. Be curious about them, reach out and ask them how they're doing, take an interest in them and what they have to say. That's the best way to forget about you, i.e. literally lose your self-consciousness. If nothing else it will at least take the spotlight off of you for a few seconds while they talk, which might be a relief. But people really appreciate when you take an interest in them, and they also appreciate (this will sound a touch cynical) the opportunity to talk about themselves. You will be well-liked. Although in the long run just don't give too much slack to people who latch onto you as a "good listener" and never give you a chance to talk! They should be willing to let you talk sometimes. And by the same token you should be ready and willing to share about yourself, not just asking questions about others like an interrogator. But in general, start with asking about and caring about others; that's the foundation of every meaningful relationship anyway.
Disagree with the first graf, totally agree with the second! I sort of like your point about just not worrying about it. But I found that I could improve my self-confidence by working at it, and it was ultimately worth literally millions of dollars and much more happiness to me. Also meant that I was always able to meet wonderful romantic partners and I am… not good looking at all.
I was voted shyest kid in my high school class. My brain would go white during any attempt at public speaking, and I was super awkward around any new people.
Much of it came from being extremely sensitive. So much worry about what other people thought, and that any esteem in which you may be held could be destroyed at any moment.
A couple things changed: I joined team sports and programming competitions, which strengthened my self-esteem and confidence. Eventually, I grew to understand my lizard brain's reactions could consciously override them. For example, several years back, I was invited to speak at a conference in China, and my first thought was "NOOO" but then I realized I'd regret that and when else do you get to see a new country on someone else's dime? So it's worth optimizing for opportunity. It's kind of like the improv rule. Always say yes, and see where it goes.
But it never completely fades. I'm a seasoned and respected engineer and I still get sweaty hands and an elevated heart rate even when giving status updates to my team of five years.
Much of it came from being extremely sensitive. So much worry about what other people thought, and that any esteem in which you may be held could be destroyed at any moment.
A couple things changed: I joined team sports and programming competitions, which strengthened my self-esteem and confidence. Eventually, I grew to understand my lizard brain's reactions could consciously override them. For example, several years back, I was invited to speak at a conference in China, and my first thought was "NOOO" but then I realized I'd regret that and when else do you get to see a new country on someone else's dime? So it's worth optimizing for opportunity. It's kind of like the improv rule. Always say yes, and see where it goes.
But it never completely fades. I'm a seasoned and respected engineer and I still get sweaty hands and an elevated heart rate even when giving status updates to my team of five years.
ADHD medication.
I didn't even realize those things would be connected. Turned out a lot of - not all, but a lot - my depression, anxiety, and general weirdness was tied to ADHD.
edit: I feel I should also note I went through a few years of therapy at one point and that also helped, but I can't understate that having ADHD diagnosed as an adult and receiving medication changed my life.
I didn't even realize those things would be connected. Turned out a lot of - not all, but a lot - my depression, anxiety, and general weirdness was tied to ADHD.
edit: I feel I should also note I went through a few years of therapy at one point and that also helped, but I can't understate that having ADHD diagnosed as an adult and receiving medication changed my life.
Here's what I did and/or do.
1. I constantly ask trusted friends and family members if I was blundering in social situations. I asked my wife this evening, when our daughter had her boyfriend over for dinner. I didn't blunder. I asked anyway. I will ask during an event, especially if it lasts for hours. Ultimately when I blunder, I reprogram how I will respond when that situation arises again. While that could be a thousand little actions, I find I can generalize things, and that makes it easier.
2. Put yourself in tough social situations. I did fashion photography for 8 years as a hobby. I worked with 20+ models in the DC area, and did 2 shoots in NYC. Yes it was all about getting the photos, but to do that you focus your attention on the model. This book helped: "How to Win Friends & Influence People" by Dale Carnegie. Ultimately, the intimidatingly gorgeous woman in front of you and your camera is a regular human who comes from some place, has family and friends, and has interests. When you work with someone like that for 8 or so hours, you need to make her feel comfortable.
3. Work with some successful and highly extraverted people, whether in business or in a volunteer situation. I was working with and being mentored by someone who owned the world. There were no limitations with him. He could go anywhere, do anything. Obviously he didn't actually own the world, but his presence said he did. This was in a volunteer situation. This person was very hard working, wealthy, an overall good person, but took no garbage from anyone. He was also very smart. Actually there were a couple others like him in that volunteer situation - power, money, capabilities, responsibilities, accomplishments. Learn from them.
Good luck! This is what I did. You'll always feel socially awkward, but if you work at it, you can power through it in the tough situations. Hope this helps!
1. I constantly ask trusted friends and family members if I was blundering in social situations. I asked my wife this evening, when our daughter had her boyfriend over for dinner. I didn't blunder. I asked anyway. I will ask during an event, especially if it lasts for hours. Ultimately when I blunder, I reprogram how I will respond when that situation arises again. While that could be a thousand little actions, I find I can generalize things, and that makes it easier.
2. Put yourself in tough social situations. I did fashion photography for 8 years as a hobby. I worked with 20+ models in the DC area, and did 2 shoots in NYC. Yes it was all about getting the photos, but to do that you focus your attention on the model. This book helped: "How to Win Friends & Influence People" by Dale Carnegie. Ultimately, the intimidatingly gorgeous woman in front of you and your camera is a regular human who comes from some place, has family and friends, and has interests. When you work with someone like that for 8 or so hours, you need to make her feel comfortable.
3. Work with some successful and highly extraverted people, whether in business or in a volunteer situation. I was working with and being mentored by someone who owned the world. There were no limitations with him. He could go anywhere, do anything. Obviously he didn't actually own the world, but his presence said he did. This was in a volunteer situation. This person was very hard working, wealthy, an overall good person, but took no garbage from anyone. He was also very smart. Actually there were a couple others like him in that volunteer situation - power, money, capabilities, responsibilities, accomplishments. Learn from them.
Good luck! This is what I did. You'll always feel socially awkward, but if you work at it, you can power through it in the tough situations. Hope this helps!
Well it sounds like you already made the most significant jump, which is realizing that social skills are just a skill, and like all skills they can be improved with practice. So practice. Put yourself in situations where you're a little out of your comfort zone and focus on small improvements (can I introduce myself to someone at this party? Can I make friends with someone at this party? Can I have a conversation with my seatmate on the plane? etc...).
Remember that most people instinctively want to like you. Let them. But sometimes people are closed off. Do not let that get to you. Just stay chipper and move on.
I used to be the shy nerdy kid in school but most people in my life now wouldn't believe me if I told them that. I made a really deliberate effort to gain confidence in my social skills.
It's dated and embarrassingly titled, but How To Win Friends And Influence People is a really good, genuine book on this.
Remember that most people instinctively want to like you. Let them. But sometimes people are closed off. Do not let that get to you. Just stay chipper and move on.
I used to be the shy nerdy kid in school but most people in my life now wouldn't believe me if I told them that. I made a really deliberate effort to gain confidence in my social skills.
It's dated and embarrassingly titled, but How To Win Friends And Influence People is a really good, genuine book on this.
This is a complex problem, and no single answer will be a solution.
A few miscellaneous tips:
- Join a local ToastMasters chapter: it will force you to (1) speak to many people at once that you aren't familiar with, (2) force you to improve public speaking (which is closely related to #1), and (3) increase your confidence with speaking in general.
- The gym, like you mentioned, is one of the biggest single things you can do. Not even for the physiological transformation, but for the chemical dump that happens in your brain when you exercise, which has 'afterglow' affects that can last for days. I cannot recommend CrossFit enough (or just class-based functional fitness training in general).
- Get lots of quality sleep. Good sleep won't make you confident, but lack of sleep will definitely make you less confident over time (increased anxiety, decreased communication skills, etc.)
A few miscellaneous tips:
- Join a local ToastMasters chapter: it will force you to (1) speak to many people at once that you aren't familiar with, (2) force you to improve public speaking (which is closely related to #1), and (3) increase your confidence with speaking in general.
- The gym, like you mentioned, is one of the biggest single things you can do. Not even for the physiological transformation, but for the chemical dump that happens in your brain when you exercise, which has 'afterglow' affects that can last for days. I cannot recommend CrossFit enough (or just class-based functional fitness training in general).
- Get lots of quality sleep. Good sleep won't make you confident, but lack of sleep will definitely make you less confident over time (increased anxiety, decreased communication skills, etc.)
I was quite weird in my younger years. I think it's because I thought the real me was unacceptable, so I hid my true thoughts and feelings and spent all of my time putting on an act.
I think the point things started to change for me was when I started listening to other people, rather than sit there worrying about what everyone thought of me. I stopped going into new social situations thinking "oh fuck, what am I going to say?", and instead thought "if I become interested in the other person and what they're talking about, an endless well of conversation will open up".
Through doing this, I got to know people better, and I realized that everyone is kind of weird in their own way. This made me more comfortable in my own skin, and more willing to share the parts of myself that I was ashamed of.
I think the point things started to change for me was when I started listening to other people, rather than sit there worrying about what everyone thought of me. I stopped going into new social situations thinking "oh fuck, what am I going to say?", and instead thought "if I become interested in the other person and what they're talking about, an endless well of conversation will open up".
Through doing this, I got to know people better, and I realized that everyone is kind of weird in their own way. This made me more comfortable in my own skin, and more willing to share the parts of myself that I was ashamed of.
I did the opposite by accident: I was fascinated by older kids when I was young, and they thought I was charming. Then in my 20s most people seemed repetitive, and I had some real social headwinds.
I'm trying to recapture some of that spirit, finding the interesting part of any given person's experience (which is rarely the topics that people small talk about). I'm not naive, some people are more interesting than others, but regardless you have to be intentional.
I'm trying to recapture some of that spirit, finding the interesting part of any given person's experience (which is rarely the topics that people small talk about). I'm not naive, some people are more interesting than others, but regardless you have to be intentional.
Social anxiety is a real burden to live with. I'm in the same boat that you are, even when people are being very friendly with me and are obviously interested in getting to know me I can seem so uncomfortable that it is off-putting to them. I've been accused of being stuck up before when honestly I'm just very shy. If I could suggest anything that is fairly easy to start thinking about, I would suggest garnering a sense of style. Buy clothes that make you feel comfortable and make you look good- even if your look is unconventional the ability to express one's identity through fashion builds confidence.
1. I put myself willingly in social situations in which I didn't know anyone. The trick for me was picking and going alone to social events (= events in which there is a lot of group talks) in which I was fairly interested but not REALLY interested, so I felt that was not problem to bail out at any moment, in any way, without giving any explanation, nor I cared if I did something really awkward or even had a panic attack (it surprisingly didn't happen), I said to myself "In that case, if I felt really in the wrong group of people, I would just not come anymore to this specific series of events and that's all... no one is really gonna care"
2. In those social situations I tried to listen far far FAR more than I talk, and also observe. Once you really observe people around you you can see how many of them are awkward and shy and make "social mistakes" and recover from them without problems. You'll see most people are really not that different than yourself.
It worked very well for me, got confident incredibly fast. The hardest part is probably the first one or two events. I remember that for the first one, which was a recurring monthly event, I went physically as far as the door of the location in which it took place for two times without entering and bailing out at last second because of anxiety. Than the next month I went in and since then I still go to that series of events, and I found one of the best shy community I could hope for.
2. In those social situations I tried to listen far far FAR more than I talk, and also observe. Once you really observe people around you you can see how many of them are awkward and shy and make "social mistakes" and recover from them without problems. You'll see most people are really not that different than yourself.
It worked very well for me, got confident incredibly fast. The hardest part is probably the first one or two events. I remember that for the first one, which was a recurring monthly event, I went physically as far as the door of the location in which it took place for two times without entering and bailing out at last second because of anxiety. Than the next month I went in and since then I still go to that series of events, and I found one of the best shy community I could hope for.
Accept yourself. What helped me to accept myself was the book https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiet:_The_Power_of_Introver...
If you can accept your awkward and shy self you can on occasion also make fun of yourself. And if you have fun with yourself others might have fun with you, too. If you accept yourself others will also do ( independent of your quirks ).
I still feel socially awkward sometimes, but other are surprised when I tell them this because I generally come off as pretty well adjusted socially.
I was very awkward in shy in school. In ninth grade I decided to go out of my way to stop being so shy. I started forcing myself to speak out in class, or talk to the "popular" kids whom I was always shy around. Over time it worked, I got more and more comfortable. There were some very cringe-worthy moments, but with time I just grew more comfortable not caring about people's responses enough to speak up in social situations.
When meeting new people I still often get a bit shy and uncertain, but usually can kind of fake it for long enough until I get their "vibe" and how to respond to them in a way that maintains banter.
If doing this as an adult, a version of what worked on me as a student might be putting yourself in social situations that you're not comfortable with a little bit at a time. Join a few different kinds of Meetups, take a group class. Hitting the gym as you say is good, I think it really helps with overall confidence. But being at the gym by yourself is often a solitary activity where you don't need to interact with others much. You can still feel self-conscious if you are new to the gym and don't feel like you know what you're doing, but just watching some YouTube videos to brush up on exercise ideas and lifting techniques can help that pass quickly.
Good luck!
I was very awkward in shy in school. In ninth grade I decided to go out of my way to stop being so shy. I started forcing myself to speak out in class, or talk to the "popular" kids whom I was always shy around. Over time it worked, I got more and more comfortable. There were some very cringe-worthy moments, but with time I just grew more comfortable not caring about people's responses enough to speak up in social situations.
When meeting new people I still often get a bit shy and uncertain, but usually can kind of fake it for long enough until I get their "vibe" and how to respond to them in a way that maintains banter.
If doing this as an adult, a version of what worked on me as a student might be putting yourself in social situations that you're not comfortable with a little bit at a time. Join a few different kinds of Meetups, take a group class. Hitting the gym as you say is good, I think it really helps with overall confidence. But being at the gym by yourself is often a solitary activity where you don't need to interact with others much. You can still feel self-conscious if you are new to the gym and don't feel like you know what you're doing, but just watching some YouTube videos to brush up on exercise ideas and lifting techniques can help that pass quickly.
Good luck!
My mother used to listen to those MLM casettes about selling. One piece of advice that stuck was "Nobody is born smiling. The first thing a human does is cry. You have to learn to smile."
My default smile is sultry. That's awkward in a lot of situations. So when I smile, I'd cover my mouth, and I'd avoid smiling in photos.
I had to practice. It was like throwing a basketball; everyone knew how to throw a ball but not throw it the right way. There's a few smiles - the photo smile, that cute smile with your eyes, the instant smile upon seeing a pretty stranger, the "I enjoy your company" smile to use in dates and interviews.
After a while, it overrode my natural smile. It didn't even take very long, probably a month or two of practice in the shower. I learned to apply that to every single social skill.
Listening is probably the best skill to be charming. Make a habit of listening first, then deciding what to say. Public speaking is a skill too. The way my trainer taught it, you have to load your head with bullet points and then speak it out without sorting the words beforehand. If you can combine those two skills together - make bullet points in your head while someone is talking, then speaking from those bullet points, you can sound very sharp and charismatic (people love it when you're paying attention).
I still haven't fixed my posture at 30+ but so far it's a dump stat.
My default smile is sultry. That's awkward in a lot of situations. So when I smile, I'd cover my mouth, and I'd avoid smiling in photos.
I had to practice. It was like throwing a basketball; everyone knew how to throw a ball but not throw it the right way. There's a few smiles - the photo smile, that cute smile with your eyes, the instant smile upon seeing a pretty stranger, the "I enjoy your company" smile to use in dates and interviews.
After a while, it overrode my natural smile. It didn't even take very long, probably a month or two of practice in the shower. I learned to apply that to every single social skill.
Listening is probably the best skill to be charming. Make a habit of listening first, then deciding what to say. Public speaking is a skill too. The way my trainer taught it, you have to load your head with bullet points and then speak it out without sorting the words beforehand. If you can combine those two skills together - make bullet points in your head while someone is talking, then speaking from those bullet points, you can sound very sharp and charismatic (people love it when you're paying attention).
I still haven't fixed my posture at 30+ but so far it's a dump stat.
Pre-university, I worked in tech support at a dot-com startup. I was extremely shy and just calling hardware vendors caused me anxiety. During university, I worked at a games shop where I slowly opened up by interacting with the customers. I remained very shy with women but ended up meeting a girl there. When things ended 10 years later, I was shocked to find that I was still having difficulties in that respect.
I sought a book to help and picked up Models by Mark Manson, a book about dating, and it completely altered my perspective in many ways. I realized that I wasn't shy per-se: I was needy. In my desire to please (not only women), I was, fundamentally, dishonest to others and myself. I had some work to do.
My path to a "good place" involved following the advice in the book: Focus on yourself, and develop interests. I started working out, joined a book club, went on hikes... some things stuck, others didn't. I didn't do any of these things to please anyone, but for myself. (Atomic Habits is a great book in this respect)
I also kept on reading and found Stoicism as a guiding philosophy of life. I started with Manson's popular "The subtle art of not giving a f*ck" and Ryan Holiday's "The Obstacle is the Way", and soon progressed to the texts of Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, and Epictetus.
I still feel awkward at times but by journaling and keeping lessons from philosophy present (e.g. via Readwise), I reflect and let go of it.
I hope some of the above helps :)
I sought a book to help and picked up Models by Mark Manson, a book about dating, and it completely altered my perspective in many ways. I realized that I wasn't shy per-se: I was needy. In my desire to please (not only women), I was, fundamentally, dishonest to others and myself. I had some work to do.
My path to a "good place" involved following the advice in the book: Focus on yourself, and develop interests. I started working out, joined a book club, went on hikes... some things stuck, others didn't. I didn't do any of these things to please anyone, but for myself. (Atomic Habits is a great book in this respect)
I also kept on reading and found Stoicism as a guiding philosophy of life. I started with Manson's popular "The subtle art of not giving a f*ck" and Ryan Holiday's "The Obstacle is the Way", and soon progressed to the texts of Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, and Epictetus.
I still feel awkward at times but by journaling and keeping lessons from philosophy present (e.g. via Readwise), I reflect and let go of it.
I hope some of the above helps :)
Judging by your post history, you might be a software engineer. As such, you might benefit from a few specific tactics I haven't seen in other comments yet:
1. Being an interviewer.
2. Being a mentor. (onboarding mentor, for example.)
3. Join your workplace's "Donut" program, if it has one. (I don't know what these are normally called, but at my job it's a thing where you get matched with a new random coworker every two weeks for a half-hour chat.)
The common thread of these tactics is you have the opportunity to meet new people in a mostly-familiar workplace context where you probably have more confidence and a greater sense of belonging. The more supportive environment lets you learn conversational skills that you can then deploy in more unfamiliar contexts like meetups or gyms.
Not only that, but for (1) and (2) you -- hopefully -- get training/shadowing opportunities before being thrown in the deep end.
Between those three things, I've had 1-1 (or 1-1-1, for interviews) conversations with 100+ different people over ~5 years. In retrospect, this has considerably reduced my social anxiety, although that had never been my explicit intent (I was just trying to help / learn / etc.)
As with all things in life, YMMV. Obviously these tactics are workplace-dependent. And if the idea of mentoring or interviewing puts you in the "panic zone" (brain shuts down), you might be advised to try some intermediate steps first.
1. Being an interviewer.
2. Being a mentor. (onboarding mentor, for example.)
3. Join your workplace's "Donut" program, if it has one. (I don't know what these are normally called, but at my job it's a thing where you get matched with a new random coworker every two weeks for a half-hour chat.)
The common thread of these tactics is you have the opportunity to meet new people in a mostly-familiar workplace context where you probably have more confidence and a greater sense of belonging. The more supportive environment lets you learn conversational skills that you can then deploy in more unfamiliar contexts like meetups or gyms.
Not only that, but for (1) and (2) you -- hopefully -- get training/shadowing opportunities before being thrown in the deep end.
Between those three things, I've had 1-1 (or 1-1-1, for interviews) conversations with 100+ different people over ~5 years. In retrospect, this has considerably reduced my social anxiety, although that had never been my explicit intent (I was just trying to help / learn / etc.)
As with all things in life, YMMV. Obviously these tactics are workplace-dependent. And if the idea of mentoring or interviewing puts you in the "panic zone" (brain shuts down), you might be advised to try some intermediate steps first.
I have gone through periods of social awkwardness and the opposite- social confidence. It absolutely has everything to do with my own perception and opinion of myself- my self-confidence. Duh, right?
What makes you confident? The answer, for me at least, is "feeling like I'm good at the thing that matters."
I was awkward in middle school- I didn't understand the general social dynamic. I was "too smart" and didn't fit in. In high school I started working out, started going to parties, suddenly realized that the opposite sex was attracted to me, too- and became very confident.
I was therefore confident in college... but became awkward halfway through. I wasn't making good grades in my EE courses- I had never learned how to study! I was now the opposite of "too smart". I started smoking too much weed and became reclusive. I went through a number of girlfriends and hurt some friendships. I was now back to being awkward.
This didn't change until I graduated and got a job. At that point I was probably the MOST awkward I have ever felt. I didn't know what I was doing at work (electric utility). I was losing touch with friends. I broke up with my long-term girlfriend. This all changed when... yep, you guessed it, I got good at work. I also met an amazing woman (who I am now married to) who really helped me build my emotional intelligence. I am now confident in my life.
So what I've learned, for me at least, is my confidence is a function of if I'm thriving in the environment I find myself in. If you are in a toxic environment- get out. If you're not fit for your environment- get good. I really do think it is just that simple.
What makes you confident? The answer, for me at least, is "feeling like I'm good at the thing that matters."
I was awkward in middle school- I didn't understand the general social dynamic. I was "too smart" and didn't fit in. In high school I started working out, started going to parties, suddenly realized that the opposite sex was attracted to me, too- and became very confident.
I was therefore confident in college... but became awkward halfway through. I wasn't making good grades in my EE courses- I had never learned how to study! I was now the opposite of "too smart". I started smoking too much weed and became reclusive. I went through a number of girlfriends and hurt some friendships. I was now back to being awkward.
This didn't change until I graduated and got a job. At that point I was probably the MOST awkward I have ever felt. I didn't know what I was doing at work (electric utility). I was losing touch with friends. I broke up with my long-term girlfriend. This all changed when... yep, you guessed it, I got good at work. I also met an amazing woman (who I am now married to) who really helped me build my emotional intelligence. I am now confident in my life.
So what I've learned, for me at least, is my confidence is a function of if I'm thriving in the environment I find myself in. If you are in a toxic environment- get out. If you're not fit for your environment- get good. I really do think it is just that simple.
I know it's easier said than done, but honestly I think I'm a very changed person since I got married and had kids. For one, I'm no longer preoccupied with what women think of me and having kids as my priority just makes everything else seem less important. I can fail at work, I can fail with friends, I can slip on a banana peel but so long as my kids are fed and clothed I'm doing fine.
I was never horribly awkward, but I was definitely quiet and nerdy well into my 20s, but I also worked in the digital agency/consulting space which meant that advancing my career meant being not only client facing, but also doing sales pitches. That was some trial by fire and made me sweat pretty badly at first, but it didn't take too many go-rounds before I realized it's just not even a skill, just a confidence game. I'd done enough projects to speak with authority on things I knew well and to speak with confidence on things I didn't know, but figured couldn't be that hard. Eventually I was being asked to get on a plane, go pitch with a team of complete strangers from another office with a client I'd never met and I didn't feel even a bit nervous.
I was never horribly awkward, but I was definitely quiet and nerdy well into my 20s, but I also worked in the digital agency/consulting space which meant that advancing my career meant being not only client facing, but also doing sales pitches. That was some trial by fire and made me sweat pretty badly at first, but it didn't take too many go-rounds before I realized it's just not even a skill, just a confidence game. I'd done enough projects to speak with authority on things I knew well and to speak with confidence on things I didn't know, but figured couldn't be that hard. Eventually I was being asked to get on a plane, go pitch with a team of complete strangers from another office with a client I'd never met and I didn't feel even a bit nervous.
I was a shy and awkward kid, and I suspect that never really goes away, but the contexts where that becomes an issue can be learnt away.
I.e. you can learn to prepare for certain situations, and learn that the outcome doesnt have to be bad. That can relax you, but there will always be situations that make you nervous.
I guess don't shy away from doing the things you need to be doing, and you will learn to deal with these situations better and be more relaxed about it.
I.e. you can learn to prepare for certain situations, and learn that the outcome doesnt have to be bad. That can relax you, but there will always be situations that make you nervous.
I guess don't shy away from doing the things you need to be doing, and you will learn to deal with these situations better and be more relaxed about it.
Not gonna be a popular answer but I will say it nonetheless.
I used to be fairly shy, especially with the other sex, of course. But in my personal life with family and friends I was fairly normal, it was just shyness and a lack of confidence while surrounded by others.
I cured myself through ego, a bit of arrogance and blunt thoughts about women, discovering what I value and I what I don't in the process.
1. I spent several days looking at people (high school) and tried to look at them objectively (without paying much attention to how popular they were)
2. I realized most people were fairly mediocre (in the sense, they were not accomplishing much, not really smart), I had absolutely no reasons to be ashamed or unconfident in the face of people that were not faring any better than I did.
3. As for women, I just humanized them (sounds very obvious but well, I was young). After all, they also go to toilet, they have their own dreams shattered, grand ambitions, false hope, small moment of joy. And no matter how pretty they are, from time to time, when the night comes, they are alone in bed, questioning their existence, life choices, remembering their mistakes and crying out of sadness and lost ones.
After this moment, I started to see others and women as more or less similar to myself. I had a good idea of what I valued (intelligence, provocative thoughts), and I what I did not really value (popularity contest, amassing lots of things, the latest gadgets, new clothes, etc).
As soon as I established myself, I did not try to compete, stopped seeing women as magical creatures, did not care about being "popular" and started making friends with people, who shared common values.
I used to be fairly shy, especially with the other sex, of course. But in my personal life with family and friends I was fairly normal, it was just shyness and a lack of confidence while surrounded by others.
I cured myself through ego, a bit of arrogance and blunt thoughts about women, discovering what I value and I what I don't in the process.
1. I spent several days looking at people (high school) and tried to look at them objectively (without paying much attention to how popular they were)
2. I realized most people were fairly mediocre (in the sense, they were not accomplishing much, not really smart), I had absolutely no reasons to be ashamed or unconfident in the face of people that were not faring any better than I did.
3. As for women, I just humanized them (sounds very obvious but well, I was young). After all, they also go to toilet, they have their own dreams shattered, grand ambitions, false hope, small moment of joy. And no matter how pretty they are, from time to time, when the night comes, they are alone in bed, questioning their existence, life choices, remembering their mistakes and crying out of sadness and lost ones.
After this moment, I started to see others and women as more or less similar to myself. I had a good idea of what I valued (intelligence, provocative thoughts), and I what I did not really value (popularity contest, amassing lots of things, the latest gadgets, new clothes, etc).
As soon as I established myself, I did not try to compete, stopped seeing women as magical creatures, did not care about being "popular" and started making friends with people, who shared common values.
Not saying this is the best approach and it won't be a popular opinion, but drugs--particularly alcohol--were key to me breaking out of my shell.
Psychedelics did it for me, I was looking for fun but as an unintended consequence I became much more extrovert.
Of course, don't actually do hard drugs without medical supervision. You are more likely to end up worse off. A counter anecdote, a friend of mine who was really extroverted is now pretty shy and nervous in social interactions after suffering a few psychotic episodes during one of our drug binges.
Of course, don't actually do hard drugs without medical supervision. You are more likely to end up worse off. A counter anecdote, a friend of mine who was really extroverted is now pretty shy and nervous in social interactions after suffering a few psychotic episodes during one of our drug binges.
I’m curious how did psychedelics made you more extroverted? i.e was it less internal monologue, more energy, etc
After the experience I was more open to interacting to people. The difference between avoiding eye contact and just saying hi to someone can be huge. Instead of just passing by someone I'd stop and talk to them--sometimes for hours.
At first I was still pretty awkward but after time and just talking to people I'm one of the most sociable people in my circle. And it is a wide circle.
So in short my first reaction to meeting someone wasn't avoidance but instead to interact with them.
So in short my first reaction to meeting someone wasn't avoidance but instead to interact with them.
I'd agree that this helped me a lot, but I'm still paying for it.
Alcohol in particular is a really nasty drug. Psychedelics are something I love to do every now and then, but they're really not for everyone and should be approached with caution.
A small dose of MDMA though. A little goes a long way, not a bad shout if you're open to it.
Alcohol in particular is a really nasty drug. Psychedelics are something I love to do every now and then, but they're really not for everyone and should be approached with caution.
A small dose of MDMA though. A little goes a long way, not a bad shout if you're open to it.
i already had a problem. but i took it to the dive bars and learned quite a bit about how to be human. of course eventually I had to quit everything, and while i know how to hang out with people now...i kind of don't want to anymore
For alcohol at least, I don't think that's actually too unpopular an opinion. Drinking is a fairly universal social activity, and it's allowed me to meet and befriend a lot of people I probably wouldn't have otherwise.
Certainly interesting seeing the swings of upvotes and downvotes, though, hah. (That's neither a complaint nor unexpected.)
I remain convinced that weed helped me a lot here. I also basically apprenticed myself to a couple of very charming extroverted people and learned what I could from them.
For me, a little alcohol helps a bit, but if I have too much I end up talking plenty - but it's absolute bollocks that just makes me seem even weirder... :(
This is the first time I've felt compelled to post on Hacker News given this fits me so well, so thanks for that. I've definitely got a few thoughts on the steps I took that I feel correlated best with the confidence and satisfaction with my social life I've had for the past three years or so:
- Talk to strangers: This one goes against the age-old wisdom your parents taught you as a kid, but I now often work from cafes and occasionally bars, and generally I'll find an excuse to strike up one or two conversations per visit to a cafe with someone who seems interesting. I've found it incredibly helpful to feel socially connected with those around me, get comfortable practicing in a low-risk environment where you'll likely never see those around you again, and to remind myself that most people are good and friendly and open to communication
- Say yes to things: When offered a chance to go to a party, or to a work thing at a bar, or to a random ski trip someone just barely managed to snag a deal for, do it. These opportunities tend to build on each other
- Ask lots of people out: This one is specific to dating. I realized after a while that asking people out is incredibly low-risk. The worst thing that happens is they can say no, and you continue the conversation as if nothing had happened. Then actually go on the dates. Incredible confidence builder, because it works
- Seek out scary things: For my last tip, when friends suggest karaoke, do a shot and grab the mic. When you see someone pretty across the bar, remember that there's no real difference in outcome between not saying hi and getting turned down. An opportunity not taken isn't a middle-ground between success and failure, it's a failure. The more things you try, the more comfortable you get trying more things, and the more confident you get overall. Oh, and you also have a lot of fun along the way.
- Talk to strangers: This one goes against the age-old wisdom your parents taught you as a kid, but I now often work from cafes and occasionally bars, and generally I'll find an excuse to strike up one or two conversations per visit to a cafe with someone who seems interesting. I've found it incredibly helpful to feel socially connected with those around me, get comfortable practicing in a low-risk environment where you'll likely never see those around you again, and to remind myself that most people are good and friendly and open to communication
- Say yes to things: When offered a chance to go to a party, or to a work thing at a bar, or to a random ski trip someone just barely managed to snag a deal for, do it. These opportunities tend to build on each other
- Ask lots of people out: This one is specific to dating. I realized after a while that asking people out is incredibly low-risk. The worst thing that happens is they can say no, and you continue the conversation as if nothing had happened. Then actually go on the dates. Incredible confidence builder, because it works
- Seek out scary things: For my last tip, when friends suggest karaoke, do a shot and grab the mic. When you see someone pretty across the bar, remember that there's no real difference in outcome between not saying hi and getting turned down. An opportunity not taken isn't a middle-ground between success and failure, it's a failure. The more things you try, the more comfortable you get trying more things, and the more confident you get overall. Oh, and you also have a lot of fun along the way.
I realized that I was focused on myself a bit too much.
The next time you’re in a group, try finding out what people in the group like doing for fun/working on? Something positive.
If something interests you, dig a little deeper. If they’re really interested in one topic, dig a little deeper. You might learn something!
Hanging out with people can be fun if you’re excited to learn about their lives.
The next time you’re in a group, try finding out what people in the group like doing for fun/working on? Something positive.
If something interests you, dig a little deeper. If they’re really interested in one topic, dig a little deeper. You might learn something!
Hanging out with people can be fun if you’re excited to learn about their lives.
To me, a big change happened when I realized that I was actually OK. Sure, I was clumsy interacting with people. But I wasn't such a mess that nobody could love me. I still had something to offer to other people.
Sure, people could still reject me in any given interaction. But that didn't mean I was a reject. I could interact with someone, have it go badly, and not have that destroy who I was.
How did I get to that point? Well, I am a Christian. For me, fundamentally it was a matter of having it really sink in that God loved me, and God accepted me, and therefore I was accepted and loved (and acceptable and lovable), no matter how this other human reacted to me.
If that isn't where you're coming from, I'm not sure that I can tell you some other way to get to where I wound up. But I do have some practical comments:
People love to talk about what interests them. If you know a little bit about a lot of things, and you can learn how to ask questions, you can get people to talk about what they care about. They'll think you're wonderful, because not many people listen.
Once you've felt a range of things, you can kind of understand what other people are likely to feel in certain situations. This is the beginning of empathy. (In any given situation, any particular person may be feeling something far different than what you expect. If you can get them to tell you, though, you can usually understand why they're feeling that, and you can remember what it feels like to feel the same thing.)
Both of these get easier with more experience. Therefore (if you work on it), this gets easier with age.
One other thing: At about 25, I had a mentor who had me write down in a notebook every single time I messed up interacting with someone. We went through them every week. This was not particularly fun, but it was helpful.
Sure, people could still reject me in any given interaction. But that didn't mean I was a reject. I could interact with someone, have it go badly, and not have that destroy who I was.
How did I get to that point? Well, I am a Christian. For me, fundamentally it was a matter of having it really sink in that God loved me, and God accepted me, and therefore I was accepted and loved (and acceptable and lovable), no matter how this other human reacted to me.
If that isn't where you're coming from, I'm not sure that I can tell you some other way to get to where I wound up. But I do have some practical comments:
People love to talk about what interests them. If you know a little bit about a lot of things, and you can learn how to ask questions, you can get people to talk about what they care about. They'll think you're wonderful, because not many people listen.
Once you've felt a range of things, you can kind of understand what other people are likely to feel in certain situations. This is the beginning of empathy. (In any given situation, any particular person may be feeling something far different than what you expect. If you can get them to tell you, though, you can usually understand why they're feeling that, and you can remember what it feels like to feel the same thing.)
Both of these get easier with more experience. Therefore (if you work on it), this gets easier with age.
One other thing: At about 25, I had a mentor who had me write down in a notebook every single time I messed up interacting with someone. We went through them every week. This was not particularly fun, but it was helpful.
Social graces is like a muscle. And like human muscles, it atrophies with lack of use.
So thrust yourself into every social interaction you can and watch yourself get better at it.
It's pretty simple, don't overthink.
So thrust yourself into every social interaction you can and watch yourself get better at it.
It's pretty simple, don't overthink.
This won’t be of help necessarily, but for me the two necessary steps were gender transition and ADHD medication. Nothing else worked, not any willpower or effort-based therapies. In the end, it took hormones and brain meds to make me able to function. It didn’t make me less awkward or shy. It just made me less anxious about being so.
I had my epiphany when I saw the guy, whom I believed to be the master of socialization, practiced his lines in the toilet before a big event. Relax, everybody is socially awkward.
Social dancing. Argentinian tango, to be specific.
There are two factors to make shy people more comfortable. First: "everybody in the room are doing it" - being that a class, practice or milonga. Second: codigos, a game-like ritual of asking girl to dance with a stare. If you are rejected - only her knows it.
There are two factors to make shy people more comfortable. First: "everybody in the room are doing it" - being that a class, practice or milonga. Second: codigos, a game-like ritual of asking girl to dance with a stare. If you are rejected - only her knows it.
Came here to recommend swing dancing as well. I found it a big boon in university for multiple reasons, but a big one was just that it's social environment with clear rules and expectations:
- Saying "yes" to a dance with someone is a very bounded commitment: it's 3-4 minutes of their time, and consent to physical contact with the shoulder blade and hands/arms (more for embrace dances like Balboa, but still everyone comes in knowing exactly what to expect).
- The basic moves/steps are all well understood; it's pretty easy to assess the skill level of a new partner within the first ~20 seconds and find common ground in terms of what will work to do together, how much you need to stick to the script vs being novel and playful, etc.
- There isn't much unwritten etiquette, and what little there is usually communicated clearly in beginner classes or non-judgmentally at the dances themselves. As one example: don't try to "teach" on the floor; it's okay to ask for tips or feedback if you want to, but no one wants to receive unsolicited corrections.
- In most well-run scenes no one is there to hook up and any attempt to do so would be regarded as creepy and result in the person being asked to leave. But you definitely can make same- and opposite-gender friends, and often there are opportunities to meet up beforehand or afterward, or to share travel/accommodations when going to larger events.
So yeah, my experience as an awkward engineering student in a mostly-male environment at school was that dance communities (I was connected to several of them due to traveling for internships) were very much a safe space in which to acclimatize to being around—and in limited physical contact with—women, and practice the meat of socializing in terms of how to carry a conversation, tell stories in a group, listen actively, etc, without the weird pressure of everyone suspecting everyone else's motives or like, wondering if they have some kind of agenda as far as trying to "close" or if they're going to get the wrong idea, etc. This really frees people up to be extremely friendly and have fun, and when in doubt, you're literally just there to dance and enjoy the music. :)
- Saying "yes" to a dance with someone is a very bounded commitment: it's 3-4 minutes of their time, and consent to physical contact with the shoulder blade and hands/arms (more for embrace dances like Balboa, but still everyone comes in knowing exactly what to expect).
- The basic moves/steps are all well understood; it's pretty easy to assess the skill level of a new partner within the first ~20 seconds and find common ground in terms of what will work to do together, how much you need to stick to the script vs being novel and playful, etc.
- There isn't much unwritten etiquette, and what little there is usually communicated clearly in beginner classes or non-judgmentally at the dances themselves. As one example: don't try to "teach" on the floor; it's okay to ask for tips or feedback if you want to, but no one wants to receive unsolicited corrections.
- In most well-run scenes no one is there to hook up and any attempt to do so would be regarded as creepy and result in the person being asked to leave. But you definitely can make same- and opposite-gender friends, and often there are opportunities to meet up beforehand or afterward, or to share travel/accommodations when going to larger events.
So yeah, my experience as an awkward engineering student in a mostly-male environment at school was that dance communities (I was connected to several of them due to traveling for internships) were very much a safe space in which to acclimatize to being around—and in limited physical contact with—women, and practice the meat of socializing in terms of how to carry a conversation, tell stories in a group, listen actively, etc, without the weird pressure of everyone suspecting everyone else's motives or like, wondering if they have some kind of agenda as far as trying to "close" or if they're going to get the wrong idea, etc. This really frees people up to be extremely friendly and have fun, and when in doubt, you're literally just there to dance and enjoy the music. :)
I too tried gym, but now I'm muscular and awkward. Now, before interaction, people don't expect me to be awkward, and it feels as though they are more forgiving of my awkwardness but that could just be my perception.
Going to the gym and losing weight did help a lot with self esteem (and posture) issues though.
After observing my interactions, I found that if I'm unfamiliar with the person, I'll miss out on social cues or there'll be a delay before I perceive them. Also my brain goes into some kind of _fight or flight_ causing slightly impaired speech and memory.
What I do to _fix_ this is watch how others interact with this person and try to mimic them while adjusting for unfamiliarity. Assuming familiarity could be perceived as rude.
For me building familiarity allows me to interact with decreasing awkwardness, so I just try and find the fastest way to do that.
Going to the gym and losing weight did help a lot with self esteem (and posture) issues though.
After observing my interactions, I found that if I'm unfamiliar with the person, I'll miss out on social cues or there'll be a delay before I perceive them. Also my brain goes into some kind of _fight or flight_ causing slightly impaired speech and memory.
What I do to _fix_ this is watch how others interact with this person and try to mimic them while adjusting for unfamiliarity. Assuming familiarity could be perceived as rude.
For me building familiarity allows me to interact with decreasing awkwardness, so I just try and find the fastest way to do that.
I decided that I didn't care what other people's opinions of me were. This was after nearly pathological shyness and embarrassment at being "me" when I was 11-14. Then my family moved and the new location let me be a new person with new friends. Also, puberty and maturity played a large part, obviously. The not caring about what other people thought had its own problems that took me much longer to recognize and work through but it did get me out of my shy period. Personal growth is hard.
After we moved I made a new best friend. His brother, who was a few years older than me, was extremely outgoing and could talk to anyone about anything. I learned by observing him that asking questions was a great way to get to know people and hold up my end of a conversation.
After we moved I made a new best friend. His brother, who was a few years older than me, was extremely outgoing and could talk to anyone about anything. I learned by observing him that asking questions was a great way to get to know people and hold up my end of a conversation.
For some of us, there is no improving. If someone brings up a topic I know well, such as C, or the POSIX shell, I will start explaining the nuances which everyone gets wrong and after a minute I will be heavily breathing without realizing it. State that milliseconds don't matter, and I will start shaking and explain why Java is the worst thing to happen to computing, and maybe insult you for using it, as if you're the enemy all of a sudden. I also tend to point out spelling and grammar mistakes in people's writing online. I've tried to fix this. I am aware of the problem in me. I have tried explicitly preventing the usual trappings. But at the end of the day I always go back to the same old habits. Even this post took me 10 minutes to edit.
I've been there. I was very shy, talking to strangers was a big problem, talking to girls my age was like climbing the Mt. Everest.
What helped me was to just go out there and practice. I'm not from the US, but i think it might be way easier in the states to just go out and practicing small talk.
I started very small. Driving to a different city and just asking people what time it is, asking for directions, pretending to be a tourist. Salespeople are also very helpful. For example drive to a store and ask for recommendations for a specific item if you want to make a purchase anyway.
The key for me was to make it a habit. Start with asking older people, then people your age, then women in groups, etc.
Practice and you will see that you get better at reading people and how they react to what you say.
What helped me was to just go out there and practice. I'm not from the US, but i think it might be way easier in the states to just go out and practicing small talk.
I started very small. Driving to a different city and just asking people what time it is, asking for directions, pretending to be a tourist. Salespeople are also very helpful. For example drive to a store and ask for recommendations for a specific item if you want to make a purchase anyway.
The key for me was to make it a habit. Start with asking older people, then people your age, then women in groups, etc.
Practice and you will see that you get better at reading people and how they react to what you say.
Similarly, I'm an introvert and quickly used to feel uncomfortable among people I didn't know. Parties used to be exhausting! Then I started my own business and had to learn to network. One very helpful idea, taken from the book "How to win friends and influence people" was to take (genuine) interest in the other people present. Instead of talking about myself, I like to ask people what they do, how they got there, what they like, etc. People loooove to talk about themselves, so it makes for very easy conversations, and slowly, each of those strengthened my confidence in such settings to the point where I actually enjoy them now (I still need breaks every 60 minutes to recharge alone before returning back into the crowd).
Here’s what I did (would’ve been about 2009-2011, when I was late 20s/early 30s):
• Say yes to every social invitation I received for a period of about 2 years, whether it was something I thought would be fun or not — and never flake. Get to be known as a reliable person who is down for anything.
• Set a goal of speaking to a person I didn’t know every day — could be as simple as “Hello” to a cashier at the grocery store, but I had to do it
• Date more - went out on an average of 2 first dates a week (all found through OK Cupid). Just getting coffee, going to dinner, going to a movie, taking a walk — simple stuff with no pressure. Just meet another person, ask questions about their life, share about my own life.
It was a very fun and life-changing experience.
• Say yes to every social invitation I received for a period of about 2 years, whether it was something I thought would be fun or not — and never flake. Get to be known as a reliable person who is down for anything.
• Set a goal of speaking to a person I didn’t know every day — could be as simple as “Hello” to a cashier at the grocery store, but I had to do it
• Date more - went out on an average of 2 first dates a week (all found through OK Cupid). Just getting coffee, going to dinner, going to a movie, taking a walk — simple stuff with no pressure. Just meet another person, ask questions about their life, share about my own life.
It was a very fun and life-changing experience.
Two basic things:
1) show a genuine interest in other people and ask them questions to learn more about them
2) stop caring how other people perceive you
2) may seem a bit hand wavey here, but it's absolutely crucial that you don't present as desperate to be liked or respected.
At first, you must drop all pretense and learn to listen and ask questions. Answer questions when asked, but be careful not to ramble, and look for segues to get other people talking about the topic.
Once you get more comfortable around other people, you will have a better sense of how to impress them and how to make your own anecdotes more compelling. Humor is a good focus here. But only do this after you are comfortable being a good active listener, since listening is much more important.
1) show a genuine interest in other people and ask them questions to learn more about them
2) stop caring how other people perceive you
2) may seem a bit hand wavey here, but it's absolutely crucial that you don't present as desperate to be liked or respected.
At first, you must drop all pretense and learn to listen and ask questions. Answer questions when asked, but be careful not to ramble, and look for segues to get other people talking about the topic.
Once you get more comfortable around other people, you will have a better sense of how to impress them and how to make your own anecdotes more compelling. Humor is a good focus here. But only do this after you are comfortable being a good active listener, since listening is much more important.
+1 to therapy.
Also, consider reading The Highly Sensitive Person by Elaine Aron.
I made a huge improvement to my shyness and self esteem by doing a few awareness workshops in my country (not US). And now doing therapy to boost other areas of my life which I want to improve.
It's not your fault, it's how you (and I) were raised. I am a sensitive person. Since my parents didn't know much about it, they didn't teach me how to get by, how to make contact with people, how to respect myself and still be out in the world. The message I got was that I am shy and I need to "get over it". This didn't help but made things worse. Only in my 30s did I start fixing it and healing my pains. Very much worth it.
Good luck
I made a huge improvement to my shyness and self esteem by doing a few awareness workshops in my country (not US). And now doing therapy to boost other areas of my life which I want to improve.
It's not your fault, it's how you (and I) were raised. I am a sensitive person. Since my parents didn't know much about it, they didn't teach me how to get by, how to make contact with people, how to respect myself and still be out in the world. The message I got was that I am shy and I need to "get over it". This didn't help but made things worse. Only in my 30s did I start fixing it and healing my pains. Very much worth it.
Good luck
Framing conversations as a game where the (mutual) goal is to entertain the other person helped me become a non-terrible conversationalist. Keep trying to think of things to say that will make the other person feel interested or amused, and try to tune in to their mood as the conversation progresses.
Also important while you’re doing this is to pay attention to what they’re saying (instead of getting lost in your own head trying to think of the next thing to say) and asking them questions about themselves. (Thanks go to my partner Meng who pointed these things out to me :)
Also, just forcing myself to converse more at parties, with coworkers, etc even when it seemed awkward or draining helped. You just have to practice.
Also important while you’re doing this is to pay attention to what they’re saying (instead of getting lost in your own head trying to think of the next thing to say) and asking them questions about themselves. (Thanks go to my partner Meng who pointed these things out to me :)
Also, just forcing myself to converse more at parties, with coworkers, etc even when it seemed awkward or draining helped. You just have to practice.
Yes! Improv classes can be great for learning the right attitude and some conversational tricks. And I totally agree on questions. A lot of people here are naturally curious, and most people like to talk about themselves, so you can get a great reputation just by being interested in the life and experiences of the person you're talking to.
I was a computer kid from age 7 (in the 70s). Lived in the computer lab through my teens. Turned 18, wanted to be better with people. Volunteered at a race track. Became a race track firefighter. Met the EMS crew there, signed up. Got my EMT. Spent the first year nervous and staring at my clipboard. Gradually got better and better at interacting. Now I am a flight medic. Spend my trips talking with patients and hearing their life stories. You get to see people in their very best and very worst. So amazing. Best change ever.
(I also have a parallel career in tech. The improved ability to interact with people has led to much success there as well. I regularly do public talks about the work I do.)
(I also have a parallel career in tech. The improved ability to interact with people has led to much success there as well. I regularly do public talks about the work I do.)
> I cannot help but notice
This is one of the biggest issues that cause awkwardness: caring too much about how you're perceived.
One simple way to get rid of it: just tell people that you sometimes may appear or feel shy, goofy or awkward and you'll remove the problem, because you removed the anxiety of appearing in that way: you already told people that's your nature, you no longer have anything to lose!
Actually this will give you much more comfort to remove the awkwardness.
You can use this method in different scenarios where you generally perform poorly because of anxiety or awkwardness. Just tell straight ahead that you are a disaster at X and you remove entirely the pressure from yourself and expectations from others.
This is one of the biggest issues that cause awkwardness: caring too much about how you're perceived.
One simple way to get rid of it: just tell people that you sometimes may appear or feel shy, goofy or awkward and you'll remove the problem, because you removed the anxiety of appearing in that way: you already told people that's your nature, you no longer have anything to lose!
Actually this will give you much more comfort to remove the awkwardness.
You can use this method in different scenarios where you generally perform poorly because of anxiety or awkwardness. Just tell straight ahead that you are a disaster at X and you remove entirely the pressure from yourself and expectations from others.
This is going to be an unpopular comment, but......
Drugs and alcohol.
They made me aloof enough to not care about fitting in, which ironically made me into the person that everyone else thought was the cool kid, while also dumbing me down just enough to not overanalyze everything to the point of crippling social anxiety.
The end result was a more punk rock version of val Kilmer in real genius. I subsequently dropped out at 16, got 98th percentile on the GED in half the allotted time and became the youngest attendee of my music school. After that I floated through life until retiring with my wife and animals Thoreau style at the age of 30
They made me aloof enough to not care about fitting in, which ironically made me into the person that everyone else thought was the cool kid, while also dumbing me down just enough to not overanalyze everything to the point of crippling social anxiety.
The end result was a more punk rock version of val Kilmer in real genius. I subsequently dropped out at 16, got 98th percentile on the GED in half the allotted time and became the youngest attendee of my music school. After that I floated through life until retiring with my wife and animals Thoreau style at the age of 30
NOT going way out of my comfort zone and forcing myself to socialize. Fuck that.
For me, it was finding the right gang, with a shared passion. Still very close friends with ... 6 of them? 20 years later. We completely forgot about the shared hobby, btw - I have different relationships with each of them.
Recently I got into the same context that used to make me feel awkward and surprise - still awkward and unpleasant. Better at dealing with it, of course, but mostly better at getting out fast.
Ah, and you're allowed to dislike certain kinds of extroverts. It's not envy, and you should definitely not emulate them. You just don't click.
For me, it was finding the right gang, with a shared passion. Still very close friends with ... 6 of them? 20 years later. We completely forgot about the shared hobby, btw - I have different relationships with each of them.
Recently I got into the same context that used to make me feel awkward and surprise - still awkward and unpleasant. Better at dealing with it, of course, but mostly better at getting out fast.
Ah, and you're allowed to dislike certain kinds of extroverts. It's not envy, and you should definitely not emulate them. You just don't click.
Personally I need scheduled social interaction. Something that happens with other people every Wednesday evening whether I'm feeling good or feeling bad. Or maybe every third Wednesday. Or one Wednesday a year. It does not matter. I do not cancel same day unless forced externally.
I have enough of these on my calendar that it's not possible for me to retract from the world, but not so many as to be overloaded.
Sometimes I need a mental health day/week/month and I try to pre-plan these as far in advance as possible, to try to run around the needy last minute lizard brain.
I have enough of these on my calendar that it's not possible for me to retract from the world, but not so many as to be overloaded.
Sometimes I need a mental health day/week/month and I try to pre-plan these as far in advance as possible, to try to run around the needy last minute lizard brain.
I think it's really important to also not just think of it as "social awkwardness" and also consider that your subconscious is leading you to be more conservative in social situations which you dislike. It's really nice to be able to master yourself and act in the way that you want, but also I think it's healthy and useful to notice when our natural inclination is to be smaller. The path to finding social situations where you can thrive will almost certainly involve some avoiding people whose social style makes you feel that way.
I was extremely shy and awkward when I was young. I even bought a cognitive therapy book called Overcoming Social Anxiety in my early 20’s. As you get older, a few things happen:
- Your social confidence grows. You focus on just being polite and respectful, which are easier rules of behavior to follow, rather than saying or doing the “right thing” to be socially graceful, fluid, and open
- You recognize that you have no obligation to be anyone’s entertainment and that you don’t have to try to be interesting or entertaining to others
- You develop your repertory of filler words and questions to avoid the so-called awkward silence. You get better at small, filler talk in general, and no longer dismiss it as fake or unnecessary but merely as a functional means to grease our interactions
- You focus less on social interaction as the measure of life and focus more on objective accomplishment
- You have more power to avoid unwanted social interaction
- Your “fight or flight” response tends to calm down when you are speaking to others
- You gain confidence once you begin to recognize how tremendously insecure other people are, when you used to assume you were the insecure one, because they seemed so socially comfortable and graceful compared to you.
- You realize that much social interaction is status-seeking over status metrics that perhaps you don’t even care about.
There is no skill on this earth that we can't become proficient in with practice. Stop thinking about interpersonal interactions as if they are some "innate" class of knowledge, they aren't! Drawing, painting, carpentry, programming, sport, there is no mysticism or innate ability. Obviously everyone has their own advantages more beautiful, more athletic, smarter, faster thinker, better hand-eye coordination, but not one of these advantages is a replacement for PREPERATION AND PRACTICE.
I used to be really shy with trust issues.. If I’m to be brutally honest I still am at times BUT doing a lot of psychedelics, though especially MDMA, have given me some insight into social behaviour which I do act upon with success. I feel confident to chat up anyone and handle people. Public speaking is no big deal, either.
People want to feel good. Really, don’t underestimate this. You’ll go a long, long way in this world if you can bring pleasure or happiness to the people around you.
Now, I’m not suggesting for you or anyone to be an entertainer or a constant joker, or to work hard at making people happy (but also though.. why not?) but it’s important to keep it in mind when interacting with anyone that they feel pain, are mortal, have fears, their heart is beating just like yours. It’s not all about you. They don’t notice, or even care, about every little mistake or misstep. They are too busy avoiding pain and and trying to do what’s right or best in any given moment, or trying to get what they want. Being shy around people is honestly an extra burden on them and is unfair when you think about it.
It may be easy to see this behaviour as selfish but consider their alternative to avoiding pain and trying to do what’s best.. it’s kind of a bum deal.
Just relax, learn to trust people with your ideas and they will appreciate the invite, even if it’s not always accepted. You’re not being watched.
People want to feel good. Really, don’t underestimate this. You’ll go a long, long way in this world if you can bring pleasure or happiness to the people around you.
Now, I’m not suggesting for you or anyone to be an entertainer or a constant joker, or to work hard at making people happy (but also though.. why not?) but it’s important to keep it in mind when interacting with anyone that they feel pain, are mortal, have fears, their heart is beating just like yours. It’s not all about you. They don’t notice, or even care, about every little mistake or misstep. They are too busy avoiding pain and and trying to do what’s right or best in any given moment, or trying to get what they want. Being shy around people is honestly an extra burden on them and is unfair when you think about it.
It may be easy to see this behaviour as selfish but consider their alternative to avoiding pain and trying to do what’s best.. it’s kind of a bum deal.
Just relax, learn to trust people with your ideas and they will appreciate the invite, even if it’s not always accepted. You’re not being watched.
Oh gosh, you speak to myself. Don't do what I did (hide under intoxication, brazen it out, wait too late to ask for help).
There's absolutely nothing wrong with being shy or feeling awkward in company! As a matter of fact it's quite healthy, and a sign that you are sufficiently courageous to leave your comfort zone. We are, always, children.
Enjoy being shy and introspective, observe other people closely, make sure you are always kind and considerate, and listen. Other people are the best way to get over oneself.
Also, read philosophy :)
Go with love
There's absolutely nothing wrong with being shy or feeling awkward in company! As a matter of fact it's quite healthy, and a sign that you are sufficiently courageous to leave your comfort zone. We are, always, children.
Enjoy being shy and introspective, observe other people closely, make sure you are always kind and considerate, and listen. Other people are the best way to get over oneself.
Also, read philosophy :)
Go with love
> We are, always, children.
This is a universally useful concept. It's important to remember that all adults are really just children with experience and emotional armour. Brain surgeons, judges, police, the person you love; the kid is still in there.
This is a universally useful concept. It's important to remember that all adults are really just children with experience and emotional armour. Brain surgeons, judges, police, the person you love; the kid is still in there.
As others have said, its a grab back of things, with various types of success.
Of course no one true silver bullet.
The common things of good sleep and excerise always a good idea, regardless.
Perhaps even team sports, but personal interests will vary this.
I would say feeling ok with a certain level of personal experimentation, but don't let it neurotically consume you. You have already managed to navigate life to this point. Not everything needs to be changed and not everything needs to be queried.
Trying to dramatically change things can perhaps backfire. Fitting in something related to your existing interests, but with an extroverted forcing function aspect can help.
If you know a technical topic pretty well already, seek to present on it, or teach some intro workshops. Generally, seek to find things that would exercise certain anti shyness muscles.
One thing I found personally helpful was learning a language via immediate focus even at the beginner stages with talking, there are numerous online language learning sites with lessons delivered via video chat. Would say 30 minute lessons initial are ideal.
For me shyness feels like a certain analytical process turned inwards, like I'm DDOS my own brain. The excessive nature is the issue, not necessasrily the mere act of self analysis. Finding activities where I had to moderate that excessive tendency helped for me to recognise the difference
Therapy is always an additional option, but dependent on the person and the needs of course.
I would say feeling ok with a certain level of personal experimentation, but don't let it neurotically consume you. You have already managed to navigate life to this point. Not everything needs to be changed and not everything needs to be queried.
Trying to dramatically change things can perhaps backfire. Fitting in something related to your existing interests, but with an extroverted forcing function aspect can help.
If you know a technical topic pretty well already, seek to present on it, or teach some intro workshops. Generally, seek to find things that would exercise certain anti shyness muscles.
One thing I found personally helpful was learning a language via immediate focus even at the beginner stages with talking, there are numerous online language learning sites with lessons delivered via video chat. Would say 30 minute lessons initial are ideal.
For me shyness feels like a certain analytical process turned inwards, like I'm DDOS my own brain. The excessive nature is the issue, not necessasrily the mere act of self analysis. Finding activities where I had to moderate that excessive tendency helped for me to recognise the difference
Therapy is always an additional option, but dependent on the person and the needs of course.
First things first: I'm not always over it, it is simply better. I still am socially awkward, but I'm in a position that it is simply OK for me to be that way.
I got away from some folks in my life. This helped me be more comfortable in my own skin: I'd rather spend time alone or chatting with online friends than have fake friends in meatspace.
I lived alone for a bit. I understand this isn't available to everyone - I was lucky. What that did mean was that I had to rely on myself a little more and choose a great deal more about my own schedule.
I moved to another country. Suddenly, people understand when I'm awkward. It is fantastic.
I learned to pretend. It isn't like other folks know how nervous you feel inside, and then I find out it passes. I didn't need to really go outside my comfort zone - I simply did things I wanted to do even if i felt nervous. Someone told my mother - when considering a free vacation some months after my father died - that, "You are going to be sad about it wherever you are. Might as well go off and do it somewhere beautiful" Same thing with feeling awkward: If I want to do it, I might as well. I'll feel weird either way.
I did MDMA more than once.
I travelled alone. Similar benefits to living alone, but it is smaller in scope.
Then again, a therapist might do all this faster for you. I always wonder what would have happened if i went this route.
I got away from some folks in my life. This helped me be more comfortable in my own skin: I'd rather spend time alone or chatting with online friends than have fake friends in meatspace.
I lived alone for a bit. I understand this isn't available to everyone - I was lucky. What that did mean was that I had to rely on myself a little more and choose a great deal more about my own schedule.
I moved to another country. Suddenly, people understand when I'm awkward. It is fantastic.
I learned to pretend. It isn't like other folks know how nervous you feel inside, and then I find out it passes. I didn't need to really go outside my comfort zone - I simply did things I wanted to do even if i felt nervous. Someone told my mother - when considering a free vacation some months after my father died - that, "You are going to be sad about it wherever you are. Might as well go off and do it somewhere beautiful" Same thing with feeling awkward: If I want to do it, I might as well. I'll feel weird either way.
I did MDMA more than once.
I travelled alone. Similar benefits to living alone, but it is smaller in scope.
Then again, a therapist might do all this faster for you. I always wonder what would have happened if i went this route.
> It's common to advise hitting on the gym, which I just started doing last week. Funnily, the gym is the place where I last noticed my awkward behavior :)
Funny, gyms are really much less judgmental than many other places--like bars a bit, but moreso elite college classrooms--in that hey, every strongman was once a skinny little dude, those early stages of building up that first muscle are really hard, there's easy gainer fat men and hard gainer guys with perma-sixpacks. Really a lot of tolerance. And funny enough, the really gigantic guys mostly don't want to say anything--one gym had celebrity athletes in it, it was rude to go up and talk--but sometimes they're super nice guys, in some cases because they sell steroids, but that doesn't take away their super-sweet positive disposition.
The gym can be anywhere. Unless of course it's a gym that makes its money from the subscription and getting nobody to go, like those places full of mirrors and shit. Ask yourself when entering a gym: is this fit for a Rocky movie? Those are the best ones, there's lots in Santiago, crazy cheap and the weights weigh the same as at an expensive gym, same metric system. The poverty of the gym will make you better. The expensive gyms have their appeal, the equipment is really good a lot of the time, and in one gym in Santiago I found a tibialis machine, which I've never found anywhere else but like anywhere anywhere, not even in the gyms at Stanford...maybe the football team has one, but I doubt it. I won bouts thanks to that training, because my tibialis was too strong for an ankle lock.
Funny, gyms are really much less judgmental than many other places--like bars a bit, but moreso elite college classrooms--in that hey, every strongman was once a skinny little dude, those early stages of building up that first muscle are really hard, there's easy gainer fat men and hard gainer guys with perma-sixpacks. Really a lot of tolerance. And funny enough, the really gigantic guys mostly don't want to say anything--one gym had celebrity athletes in it, it was rude to go up and talk--but sometimes they're super nice guys, in some cases because they sell steroids, but that doesn't take away their super-sweet positive disposition.
The gym can be anywhere. Unless of course it's a gym that makes its money from the subscription and getting nobody to go, like those places full of mirrors and shit. Ask yourself when entering a gym: is this fit for a Rocky movie? Those are the best ones, there's lots in Santiago, crazy cheap and the weights weigh the same as at an expensive gym, same metric system. The poverty of the gym will make you better. The expensive gyms have their appeal, the equipment is really good a lot of the time, and in one gym in Santiago I found a tibialis machine, which I've never found anywhere else but like anywhere anywhere, not even in the gyms at Stanford...maybe the football team has one, but I doubt it. I won bouts thanks to that training, because my tibialis was too strong for an ankle lock.
Back when I started my apprenticeship, I was a socially anxious, awkward kid. I found it very difficult to speak to adults without stuttering and sounding confused. But over the years, I've completely changed. I still wouldn't say I'm an extrovert but I find it much easier to talk to people and my heart doesn't feel like it's going to pound out of my chest when I'm placed in an unfamiliar situation. I think there's a sort of psychological training involved that you can only get by making yourself uncomfortable.
I've also found that watching YouTube helps me pick up social skills, as stupid as it sounds. I'm not diagnosed with autism but I strongly suspect I'm on the spectrum. Once I realised this, I realised that I could become sociable by imitation. By studying social interaction it's possible to learn patterns and apply them in your daily life. Eventually it gets so easy that you don't have to even think about it. For example, I've learned that smiling and starting conversations gently instead of abruptly jumping into a topic at hand works wonders because people will feel more comfortable and want to help.
It is possible to change and I encourage you to do whatever you can to push yourself forward even if it means being temporarily uncomfortable.
I've also found that watching YouTube helps me pick up social skills, as stupid as it sounds. I'm not diagnosed with autism but I strongly suspect I'm on the spectrum. Once I realised this, I realised that I could become sociable by imitation. By studying social interaction it's possible to learn patterns and apply them in your daily life. Eventually it gets so easy that you don't have to even think about it. For example, I've learned that smiling and starting conversations gently instead of abruptly jumping into a topic at hand works wonders because people will feel more comfortable and want to help.
It is possible to change and I encourage you to do whatever you can to push yourself forward even if it means being temporarily uncomfortable.
I was only awkward and shy around the people I wanted to be confident around, such as women that were more beautiful than other women, and had high and predictable consensus around that coveted level of attractiveness (as opposed to something more subjective).
What helped me was realizing that everyone is going through something similar in new situations.
The attractive person has the same anxieties as the unattractive person. The same random allocation of life issues, bad experiences, good experiences.
This is somewhat tangential, but helped me: its also a reinforcing reason to prioritize using energy on primarily the most visually and sexually attractive people - which was where the awkwardness could materialize - because people that only can rely on convincing you they have "a nice personality" or "attractive on the inside" are eclipsed or totally obscured by people that are also attractive on the outside because hot people can also be hot on the inside.
Basically, the internal and mental stuff is the same, so after realizing that, its easier to not be led astray if you are interested in something more coveted by more people.
As some others wrote, improving yourself helps a lot, posture, hygiene, living arrangement (better part of town, new town). How that factors into my note, yeah you still have to attract the other people and a lot of that involves gender neutral tweaks. If you live in a coveted and also convenient part of town, it conveys enough and you have more opportunities to attract people to things because of how towns are organized.
What helped me was realizing that everyone is going through something similar in new situations.
The attractive person has the same anxieties as the unattractive person. The same random allocation of life issues, bad experiences, good experiences.
This is somewhat tangential, but helped me: its also a reinforcing reason to prioritize using energy on primarily the most visually and sexually attractive people - which was where the awkwardness could materialize - because people that only can rely on convincing you they have "a nice personality" or "attractive on the inside" are eclipsed or totally obscured by people that are also attractive on the outside because hot people can also be hot on the inside.
Basically, the internal and mental stuff is the same, so after realizing that, its easier to not be led astray if you are interested in something more coveted by more people.
As some others wrote, improving yourself helps a lot, posture, hygiene, living arrangement (better part of town, new town). How that factors into my note, yeah you still have to attract the other people and a lot of that involves gender neutral tweaks. If you live in a coveted and also convenient part of town, it conveys enough and you have more opportunities to attract people to things because of how towns are organized.
I took a toastmasters class for two years and it is the best thing I've ever done. It has genuinely been more valuable to my life and career than my undergraduate degree.
By working from home so I don't have to be around others.
It turns out I'm not really that shy. I just don't like spending more than about 3 minutes at a time around most people.
It turns out I'm not really that shy. I just don't like spending more than about 3 minutes at a time around most people.
1. Lower your expectations. It’s normal to not be able to get along to strangers, more so with someone you have no common interest / background.
2. People mostly only care about themselves, so it’s ok if they reject/ignore/rude to you. Most likely explanation is that they’re having bad day or just couldn’t help you.
3. Don’t try too hard. In socializing, it’s better to try out many times with low effort rather than trying to make a big shot.
To steal from Mitch Hedberg: I used to be awkward and shy; I still am too.
The biggest difference is that I care a lot less. And I’m more comfortable in my awkwardness. I embrace it. I am wired differently than most people I encounter.
Caring too much made it worse. You try to fit in too much, and you dissect every little thing you do. And then when you “mess up,” you beat yourself up for it. It’s brutal.
I think part of my evolution comes down to getting older. And life experience (somewhat related to age).
The biggest difference is that I care a lot less. And I’m more comfortable in my awkwardness. I embrace it. I am wired differently than most people I encounter.
Caring too much made it worse. You try to fit in too much, and you dissect every little thing you do. And then when you “mess up,” you beat yourself up for it. It’s brutal.
I think part of my evolution comes down to getting older. And life experience (somewhat related to age).
Ultimately it's a mind game.
For the most part, we are all forgettable, and it doesn't matter what we do won't be memorable for most people.
When you think about it, you are a single person looking at out the world. You are neither a collective, or part of an explicit audience. It's your eyes, and your thoughts looking out. There may be 100 people around you, and each one of them will be having their singular experience.
A very small number of them will be having sharing their 1 person experience with your 1 person experience. But it is still them.
Look around next time you are the gym - notice how many people are actually looking around. (Of course if you are looking around quickly, you might get a few more eye contacts than you would otherwise).
Make sure you are not looking out and judging others, I know a number of people who can't even consider doing anything that might get a gaze. But they are also the first person to comment about others. It's a tiny, tiny percentage of people who do that though.
Building resilience is probably the biggest direct action you can take. Choose one thing that is just uncomfortable and do it. Do that every week. As you push your boundaries of what makes you uncomfortable, you will find that the comfort buffer that you had around you was much, much thicker than you expected.
Now there will be times you may step into something and you may actually awkward. But even then, you will learn where that boundary is, and with friends it will become a story. With strangers it will just be a easily forgotten anecdote.
For the most part, we are all forgettable, and it doesn't matter what we do won't be memorable for most people.
When you think about it, you are a single person looking at out the world. You are neither a collective, or part of an explicit audience. It's your eyes, and your thoughts looking out. There may be 100 people around you, and each one of them will be having their singular experience.
A very small number of them will be having sharing their 1 person experience with your 1 person experience. But it is still them.
Look around next time you are the gym - notice how many people are actually looking around. (Of course if you are looking around quickly, you might get a few more eye contacts than you would otherwise).
Make sure you are not looking out and judging others, I know a number of people who can't even consider doing anything that might get a gaze. But they are also the first person to comment about others. It's a tiny, tiny percentage of people who do that though.
Building resilience is probably the biggest direct action you can take. Choose one thing that is just uncomfortable and do it. Do that every week. As you push your boundaries of what makes you uncomfortable, you will find that the comfort buffer that you had around you was much, much thicker than you expected.
Now there will be times you may step into something and you may actually awkward. But even then, you will learn where that boundary is, and with friends it will become a story. With strangers it will just be a easily forgotten anecdote.
How much experience do you have in social situations? If your answer is "not very much", the solution probably lies in exposure. Once something becomes routine, it's much easier to manage because so many elements of that thing become second nature. When you're inexperienced in social situations your mind is far more stressed with every little detail, which ultimately builds up into what most people call "awkwardness".
Competence first, then confidence will follow. I don't think there's a shortcut. I think the shyness is a valid emotion where you're trying to protect yourself from a real danger. If you are not competent and act with confidence, you're liable to either fall on your face, or be smacked down by people who see you're faking it. Accept your incompetence as it may be and keep working on yourself.
I was like this in my younger years. I picked up work in a bar/pub for some time and it made me realize all people are idiots no matter their background. This solved maybe 90% of my issues and taught me to enjoy very extroverted lifestyle in comparison to who I was before (approach a girl, go dancing, public speaking, ask a question when nobody else would ...). It was such a confidence booster because I suddenly knew it would be 100% up to me to be good in something I always thought I sucked in. The rest 10% were edge-cases rooted in very specific childhood trauma and took another decade or so solve (it also required cutting these childhood triggers out of my life because they still wielded power over me - e.g.: parents.).
What worked was the number of times I exposed myself to be in these situations. I learned that the shy/awkward/insecure vibe I'm putting out made it difficult for the other party to be at ease too. I set myself up for failure simply by being the (shy) "me".
What worked for me (in hindsight) is exposing myself to such situations on purpose. I took every opportunity for a (spontaneous) conversation life offered. You could try something like "rejection therapy" (I did this very late and had a lot of fun discovering the areas I still had lots of work to do): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rejection_Therapy
Also what helped me was a few books about loving myself before expecting love from others (e.g. love is also "believing in"): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck#The_Road_Less_Tr...
What worked was the number of times I exposed myself to be in these situations. I learned that the shy/awkward/insecure vibe I'm putting out made it difficult for the other party to be at ease too. I set myself up for failure simply by being the (shy) "me".
What worked for me (in hindsight) is exposing myself to such situations on purpose. I took every opportunity for a (spontaneous) conversation life offered. You could try something like "rejection therapy" (I did this very late and had a lot of fun discovering the areas I still had lots of work to do): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rejection_Therapy
Also what helped me was a few books about loving myself before expecting love from others (e.g. love is also "believing in"): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Scott_Peck#The_Road_Less_Tr...
Most comments here are pretty simplistic like telling a fat person to workout/eat less to lose weight. I assume you aren't looking for that kind of advice. those things only work for a short amount of a time and you revert back to your old comfortable self. Its so much less work to think of yourself as a shy person and call it a day.
1. Stop thinking of yourself as shy person. As soon as that thought comes to your mind squash it immediately. Never ever complete that thought. That thought usually comes as a pressure release self compassion mechanism under stressful social situations like walking into a new place.
2. Focus on the opportunity instead of the obligation. Once you have quelled that thought replace that thought with what you might get from this social iteration, like potential date. Contrary to popular belief shy ppl get immense joy from social interactions.
3. Shyness is ego gone haywire. Get your ego under control, its ok if you tried to talk to someone and they just ignore you. Get your ego under control. No one really gives a shit about you and ppl have very very short memories. Redirect that thought back to no 2.
1. Stop thinking of yourself as shy person. As soon as that thought comes to your mind squash it immediately. Never ever complete that thought. That thought usually comes as a pressure release self compassion mechanism under stressful social situations like walking into a new place.
2. Focus on the opportunity instead of the obligation. Once you have quelled that thought replace that thought with what you might get from this social iteration, like potential date. Contrary to popular belief shy ppl get immense joy from social interactions.
3. Shyness is ego gone haywire. Get your ego under control, its ok if you tried to talk to someone and they just ignore you. Get your ego under control. No one really gives a shit about you and ppl have very very short memories. Redirect that thought back to no 2.
The only solution is to get out there and keep doing it until the awkwardness fades, and it will fade. Once it fades, you can start working on the voice, the posture, etc., one at a time. (It's too much to work on it all at once.)
I've been doing this my whole life, and am still a work in progress, but the more I work at it the better it gets.
It's well worth spending the effort.
I've been doing this my whole life, and am still a work in progress, but the more I work at it the better it gets.
It's well worth spending the effort.
I learned to play the guitar. Not well, but well enough...And, I learned the sort of songs you can play at parties, that people can sing along to. Once I started engaging with people that way, I discovered that most people are friendly and nice, and also that most people are just as shy as I am (was). I woke up one day to discover that I was no long shy, and I was no longer afraid of women!
Honestly, the biggest thing for me was just forcing myself to find opportunities to socialize, and take them. Especially when I wasn't totally comfortable with it. In high school, I joined the anime club there (yes, I'm a nerd), a Linux Users' Group, the local university (grew up in a college town) anime club, the university tabletop gaming club, and probably some other stuff I am forgetting.
I tried to say "yes" any time someone invited me to a social thing, even if it it made me anxious. It was hard at first, but it got easier over time.
Later, when I started going to conferences and conventions, I made a conscious effort to have conversations with people I didn't know. Again, it was a struggle at first, but it slowly became natural.
I doubt there's any quick way to do this. It was literally years of effort - learning to expose myself to the possibility of rejection and accept it when it happened.
In the end, this all boils down to "practice", I suppose. Being willing to suck at something is the first step towards being kinda good at it.
I tried to say "yes" any time someone invited me to a social thing, even if it it made me anxious. It was hard at first, but it got easier over time.
Later, when I started going to conferences and conventions, I made a conscious effort to have conversations with people I didn't know. Again, it was a struggle at first, but it slowly became natural.
I doubt there's any quick way to do this. It was literally years of effort - learning to expose myself to the possibility of rejection and accept it when it happened.
In the end, this all boils down to "practice", I suppose. Being willing to suck at something is the first step towards being kinda good at it.
If it is something that you want to improve then it is something that you have to put in the time and effort to practice. Some would say that confidence is an attitude (i.e. fake it till you make it) but some would say that confidence is a result of feeling comfortable in your own skin.
I think learning to feel comfortable and be okay with feeling awkward is also one way to eventually feel less awkward. The best way sometimes is to just acknowledge the awkwardness of the situation and then it will become less awkward than if it is just sitting there like the proverbial elephant in the room. It's almost like desensitizing yourself to the feeling until you become gradually less affected by it and that it doesn't bother you much at all.
If you take the time and effort to understand the situations in which you find yourself feeling socially awkward and shy, you'll be able to address the root cause of the problem and practice how you react and respond to those situations.
I wish you the best of luck :)
I think learning to feel comfortable and be okay with feeling awkward is also one way to eventually feel less awkward. The best way sometimes is to just acknowledge the awkwardness of the situation and then it will become less awkward than if it is just sitting there like the proverbial elephant in the room. It's almost like desensitizing yourself to the feeling until you become gradually less affected by it and that it doesn't bother you much at all.
If you take the time and effort to understand the situations in which you find yourself feeling socially awkward and shy, you'll be able to address the root cause of the problem and practice how you react and respond to those situations.
I wish you the best of luck :)
You shouldn't have to change. The people you interact should accommodate you as you are. If they don't do that then they're not the right people to be around and you're wasting your time with them. Take your feet and walk away if people or situations make you feel uncomfortable. Find those people and those situations that you do feel comfortable with instead of trying to change yourself.
It's an anxiety you're inflicting on yourself by trying to fit in groups you don't belong and trying to immitate behaviors that are not natural to you. You'll never succeed if you go like that. People appreciate authenticity. If you have to make effort then a) you won't look authentic, b) you will constantly have the stress of keeping up with that false persona.
You just have to let go, appreciate yourself how you are and then others will too. Be awkward, laugh at yourself being awkward, be weird and f*k everyone. If they don't like how you are then that's their problem, not yours. You'll find others that do.
It's an anxiety you're inflicting on yourself by trying to fit in groups you don't belong and trying to immitate behaviors that are not natural to you. You'll never succeed if you go like that. People appreciate authenticity. If you have to make effort then a) you won't look authentic, b) you will constantly have the stress of keeping up with that false persona.
You just have to let go, appreciate yourself how you are and then others will too. Be awkward, laugh at yourself being awkward, be weird and f*k everyone. If they don't like how you are then that's their problem, not yours. You'll find others that do.
Be around people as much as possible, don't give up but don't be uncompromising and adapt, learn from your mistakes. The more you're around people, the more normal it'll become and the easier it'll get. If you have actual social anxiety or autism, get help. They got CBT, exposure therapy (look this up anyway), drugs n all kinds of stuff.
I learned to take control of my extreme blushing by, strangely enough, looking people in the eye. I used to always avoid eye-contact, and that makes it easy to forget that you’re talking to a real, fallible person. Looking someone in the eye helps remind me that they probably feel a bit awkward too… especially when I’m giving them the stare-down as I will myself not to blush lol. I still blush sometimes, but not nearly so often as I did before.
As for my uncontrollable sweating in social situations though, I haven’t found the cure.
Edit to add that I also developed posture-related neck problems which required physical therapy in which I learned to stand up straight. Now I have to stand straight or else the neck issues come back. And I feel like it’s really boosted my confidence. Even if I don’t necessarily feel socially acclimated, I’m often standing straighter than anyone in the room (because I have to), and I know that gives off the impression of confidence, which makes me feel it.
As for my uncontrollable sweating in social situations though, I haven’t found the cure.
Edit to add that I also developed posture-related neck problems which required physical therapy in which I learned to stand up straight. Now I have to stand straight or else the neck issues come back. And I feel like it’s really boosted my confidence. Even if I don’t necessarily feel socially acclimated, I’m often standing straighter than anyone in the room (because I have to), and I know that gives off the impression of confidence, which makes me feel it.
Drugs, drugs, drugs.
It's not about cheating or becoming dependent, although those are real concerns. But what drugs do, is to push you past a boundary that you would not otherwise cross yourself. They essentially help you realize and experience what it feels like to be relaxed, confident, mentally turned on, assertive, bubbly, etc. Once you feel it, you start to learn how to get there without the push. Although that does require self-awareness and introspection.
As some have mentioned, the safest and most effective one is alcohol. One or two glasses of white wine should do to start with. I personally find any hard liquor to be terrible in this regard. Personally, alcohol lets me keep a more natural eye contact and mellows my movements and facial expression.
Caffeine helps me think fast and be on, and it lifts my mood up and makes me talkative in social situations (sometimes a little too much). I've picked up techniques that helps me get there without caffeine.
I found phenibut to be an eye-opener when it came to feeling relaxed in muscles. Helped with my posture and breathing. Up to that point, I literally did not know how to loosen my abs and chest muscles to get a nice straight back. It even helped me walk more steady and confident. The confidence that comes from a good posture surprisingly translates into better social interactions! I only took phenibut once a week or so for a few months many years ago and stopped. The learning stays with me to date.
Beta-blockers have helped me stay chill under stress. I'm very prone to stress and panic attacks. This one's a quick fixer - haven't learnt anything from this one.
Magnesium also has a chill effect and it's something you can actually take on regular basis for other benefits.
As always, read about whatever you're about to try, thoroughly and only from scientific sources.
It's not about cheating or becoming dependent, although those are real concerns. But what drugs do, is to push you past a boundary that you would not otherwise cross yourself. They essentially help you realize and experience what it feels like to be relaxed, confident, mentally turned on, assertive, bubbly, etc. Once you feel it, you start to learn how to get there without the push. Although that does require self-awareness and introspection.
As some have mentioned, the safest and most effective one is alcohol. One or two glasses of white wine should do to start with. I personally find any hard liquor to be terrible in this regard. Personally, alcohol lets me keep a more natural eye contact and mellows my movements and facial expression.
Caffeine helps me think fast and be on, and it lifts my mood up and makes me talkative in social situations (sometimes a little too much). I've picked up techniques that helps me get there without caffeine.
I found phenibut to be an eye-opener when it came to feeling relaxed in muscles. Helped with my posture and breathing. Up to that point, I literally did not know how to loosen my abs and chest muscles to get a nice straight back. It even helped me walk more steady and confident. The confidence that comes from a good posture surprisingly translates into better social interactions! I only took phenibut once a week or so for a few months many years ago and stopped. The learning stays with me to date.
Beta-blockers have helped me stay chill under stress. I'm very prone to stress and panic attacks. This one's a quick fixer - haven't learnt anything from this one.
Magnesium also has a chill effect and it's something you can actually take on regular basis for other benefits.
As always, read about whatever you're about to try, thoroughly and only from scientific sources.
Actually before alcohol, I would look at kava for a gabaergic to reduce social anxiety or kratom as a modulator of social motivation. They both work quite well if used at the right times in the right amounts
Here are two simple things I’ve been told which had a big impact on me:
* If you struggle with conversations and small talk all you need to do is ask questions. An entire conversation can be you asking a question, listening, and asking another question to what they just said and repeat.
The more someone talks during a conversation, the better they feel the conversation went. If you meet someone for the first time, ask questions, let them talk a ton and they will likely feel the conversation was enjoyable.
* Go to a place like a coffee shop or conference or park and sit for an hour and just watch people. You notice that no one cares. And I mean that in a good way. No one cares what anyone else does. A really shy and awkward person could walk into a coffee shop and feel super awkward about waiting in line and then mumble his order and fumble with his wallet and worry that everyone else is looking and judging them. But truth is no one cares. So don’t worry about random strangers.
* If you struggle with conversations and small talk all you need to do is ask questions. An entire conversation can be you asking a question, listening, and asking another question to what they just said and repeat.
The more someone talks during a conversation, the better they feel the conversation went. If you meet someone for the first time, ask questions, let them talk a ton and they will likely feel the conversation was enjoyable.
* Go to a place like a coffee shop or conference or park and sit for an hour and just watch people. You notice that no one cares. And I mean that in a good way. No one cares what anyone else does. A really shy and awkward person could walk into a coffee shop and feel super awkward about waiting in line and then mumble his order and fumble with his wallet and worry that everyone else is looking and judging them. But truth is no one cares. So don’t worry about random strangers.
Don’t be afraid to ask for help. Asking someone, especially other men, for help is displaying respect. It acknowledges them as your superior in the domain of the request. This works remarkably well with strangers. If you’re in a new social situation where you don’t know anyone, identify someone who clearly does and at an opportune moment just ask him for help. Something like: “Hi, I’m dondraper36. I don’t know anyone here, would you please help me get introduced to some people?” Obviously, use your own words. If he declines politely thank him for his time and excuse yourself.
Sometimes people won’t want to help you. They may be in a busy, distracted, in a bad mood, or just a jerk. However, this should be pretty uncommon. If you find that everyone is disinterested then you need to look at the common factor, which is yourself.
Also, I hear really good things about Toastmasters. Practicing public speaking in a supportive environment may be helpful too.
Sometimes people won’t want to help you. They may be in a busy, distracted, in a bad mood, or just a jerk. However, this should be pretty uncommon. If you find that everyone is disinterested then you need to look at the common factor, which is yourself.
Also, I hear really good things about Toastmasters. Practicing public speaking in a supportive environment may be helpful too.
(1) I read a book, which helped quite a bit: "Contact, the first 4 minutes" by Leonard Zunin. Still available on Amazon, or perhaps at your local library. Lots of good tips.
I (now) have fun interactions with people in (for example) grocery store lines, thanks to the tip that in these circumstances that you should comment on something immediately visible, so you have a shared starting point/reference point. I'll point to a People magazine or National Enquirer-type rag and say "I miss the days when there headlines about Elvis in a flying saucer", which will provoke a laugh and (often) a comment. Of course, I'm talking to people my age (in their sixties) so they remember that too. Adapt as needed to make it age-appropriate.
It also lays out strategies for how to connect in less transient situations.
As others have said, practice is very helpful.
I was painfully shy and spoke haltingly as a young adult. I'm now very comfortably extraverted.
I (now) have fun interactions with people in (for example) grocery store lines, thanks to the tip that in these circumstances that you should comment on something immediately visible, so you have a shared starting point/reference point. I'll point to a People magazine or National Enquirer-type rag and say "I miss the days when there headlines about Elvis in a flying saucer", which will provoke a laugh and (often) a comment. Of course, I'm talking to people my age (in their sixties) so they remember that too. Adapt as needed to make it age-appropriate.
It also lays out strategies for how to connect in less transient situations.
As others have said, practice is very helpful.
I was painfully shy and spoke haltingly as a young adult. I'm now very comfortably extraverted.
I enjoyed this book
https://www.amazon.com/Awkward-Science-Socially-Thats-Awesom...
even though I felt intensely envious for the author because he got the support from his parents and the people around him that I didn't get.
There are many things I do well. I can pick up the phone and make cold calls like it isn't anything. I can speak extemporaneously about intellectual topics in front of an audience and have no fear.
The form of awkwardness that I still struggle with is that I often do and say offputting things that hurt people's feelings or otherwise alienate them that I struggle to control -- this turns up more with women than men.
For instance I have a hobby of printing "three-sided cards" like
HTTPS://GEN5.INFO/$/YT$Y2U73U5N2PO6JQ/
and before long I had a box of them stuffed in my backpack, gym bag, glove box of my car to show to people and give them away. What I found out is that 100% of women want to see a picture of my wife but I didn't have one in my portable collection.
It seems strange at first because any normal person carries pictures of family in their pockets but when I started printing those cards it was anime characters, art reproductions, information graphics, etc. The first numbered card that had a photograph I took was 0021 and I didn't have a reproducible system for photographs until 0116.
That system is full of design rules and one of them is that I print many copies of the card above, have them coming out of my ears, all of my "wallets" have multiple copies of it. It's not only "protective coloration" that makes me less creepy but it's also a marketing tool for the riding lessons she teaches.
https://www.amazon.com/Awkward-Science-Socially-Thats-Awesom...
even though I felt intensely envious for the author because he got the support from his parents and the people around him that I didn't get.
There are many things I do well. I can pick up the phone and make cold calls like it isn't anything. I can speak extemporaneously about intellectual topics in front of an audience and have no fear.
The form of awkwardness that I still struggle with is that I often do and say offputting things that hurt people's feelings or otherwise alienate them that I struggle to control -- this turns up more with women than men.
For instance I have a hobby of printing "three-sided cards" like
HTTPS://GEN5.INFO/$/YT$Y2U73U5N2PO6JQ/
and before long I had a box of them stuffed in my backpack, gym bag, glove box of my car to show to people and give them away. What I found out is that 100% of women want to see a picture of my wife but I didn't have one in my portable collection.
It seems strange at first because any normal person carries pictures of family in their pockets but when I started printing those cards it was anime characters, art reproductions, information graphics, etc. The first numbered card that had a photograph I took was 0021 and I didn't have a reproducible system for photographs until 0116.
That system is full of design rules and one of them is that I print many copies of the card above, have them coming out of my ears, all of my "wallets" have multiple copies of it. It's not only "protective coloration" that makes me less creepy but it's also a marketing tool for the riding lessons she teaches.
I agree with others that social awkwardness is something that just lessens over time. I mean, you may still be awkward, but so is almost everyone else, and you realize that no one actually cares about your awkwardness. Actually, almost everyone else is focused on their own awkwardness. The smoothest talkers are those who have actively worked on their social skills and are even more self focused.
So - socialize more, get older, and stop worrying about what others think of you, and you'll find it stops mattering. If you want, you can also turn yourself into a smooth talking politician/comedian/whatever through deliberate practice, to reduce any bumps of awkwardness. But I think this is only worth doing to achieve some personal goal.
I would say though that actual social anxiety is a different beast. I had severe social anxiety into my 30s, and the only thing that really helped with that was drugs and therapy.
So - socialize more, get older, and stop worrying about what others think of you, and you'll find it stops mattering. If you want, you can also turn yourself into a smooth talking politician/comedian/whatever through deliberate practice, to reduce any bumps of awkwardness. But I think this is only worth doing to achieve some personal goal.
I would say though that actual social anxiety is a different beast. I had severe social anxiety into my 30s, and the only thing that really helped with that was drugs and therapy.
What drugs and therapy helped you?
Therapy is what helped me the most long term, and I think is the only really solution for true anxiety. It requires finding the right therapist though - I went through a few before I found someone. I put this off for so long because of the cost and, of course, the anxiety just meeting a new therapist. I think for me talking to a male therapist in particular really helped for some reason.
I used various drugs to help me "get through life" before therapy. My anxiety was completely crushing, and I felt I had no other choice.
In retrospect, I wish I had just gotten good therapy in my 20s, because living nearly 3 decades with intense social anxiety just really freakin' sucks and drags down all aspects of life. And with real long term anxiety, it takes a skilled third party to get your brain patterns to change enough to overcome it long term.
I'd say I also think I'm a "highly sensitive person", which means my primitive brain reacts more strongly to external stimuli. I think it explains a lot of my struggle in retrospect. I still feel stressed in social situations, but I know how to deal with it now mentally - I consciously recognize what is happening, and calm down the screaming part of my brain, and the anxiety mostly goes away.
I used various drugs to help me "get through life" before therapy. My anxiety was completely crushing, and I felt I had no other choice.
In retrospect, I wish I had just gotten good therapy in my 20s, because living nearly 3 decades with intense social anxiety just really freakin' sucks and drags down all aspects of life. And with real long term anxiety, it takes a skilled third party to get your brain patterns to change enough to overcome it long term.
I'd say I also think I'm a "highly sensitive person", which means my primitive brain reacts more strongly to external stimuli. I think it explains a lot of my struggle in retrospect. I still feel stressed in social situations, but I know how to deal with it now mentally - I consciously recognize what is happening, and calm down the screaming part of my brain, and the anxiety mostly goes away.
Went to university, also became a waiter in a restaurant at the same time (to pay for it).
And as the top comment says, practice practice practice. Just doing it and realizing the worst that happens is maybe someone is slightly disinterested. In general people are cordial in public.
Also, as you get older you stop caring what people think. So there's that too.
And as the top comment says, practice practice practice. Just doing it and realizing the worst that happens is maybe someone is slightly disinterested. In general people are cordial in public.
Also, as you get older you stop caring what people think. So there's that too.
I think what turned me around was positive feedback. IMO the best way to get positive feedback is by being around the right people. You know … open hearted, welcoming folks, who talk to you and know how to listen and ask questions that get you talking. Once I realised that people can actually be interested in what I'm saying, meeting new people felt way less scary.
Now, it might seem difficult to seek "the right people" out yourself, so maybe ask acquaintances to take you along and maybe make introductions so you don't have to break the ice yourself. Something like "Hey, this is dondraper36, he's into X, you told me something about that last time didn't you" can be enough.
I can't understand how someone would recommend the gym. Just like you, I'm not awkward in the gym, but I'm not interested at all in conversation when I'm there.
Now, it might seem difficult to seek "the right people" out yourself, so maybe ask acquaintances to take you along and maybe make introductions so you don't have to break the ice yourself. Something like "Hey, this is dondraper36, he's into X, you told me something about that last time didn't you" can be enough.
I can't understand how someone would recommend the gym. Just like you, I'm not awkward in the gym, but I'm not interested at all in conversation when I'm there.
I noticed a strong correlation with being more comfortable talking especially to strangers after I quit coding. It took a while for my brain to rewire but it’s much better not being a coder anymore.
Based on my own anecdote of 1, I believe there’s a strong correlation between living inside your own head and feeling awkward in mixed scenarios.
Based on my own anecdote of 1, I believe there’s a strong correlation between living inside your own head and feeling awkward in mixed scenarios.
Group therapy helped me to understand other people's perspectives on social situations, and learning how to listen has served me well in social situations as well.
Maybe the bigger change was that I started dating a very extraverted woman when I was 17 and she was 39, and so I started going to parties with her. That helped enormously.
Maybe the bigger change was that I started dating a very extraverted woman when I was 17 and she was 39, and so I started going to parties with her. That helped enormously.
For me it was learning a formula for talking to anyone. You just have to have a few canned questions about them that you can ask to spur conversation. They're painfully boring to hear yourself asking over and over, and it feels like a transparent ploy, but it completely works. "How long have you lived around here? Oh, where did you move from? Really? Oh, what made you decide to do that move? Do you ever go back?" etc. Like, literally, this script right here has gotten me through so many otherwise-awkward social situations (including dates) that it's like gold to me. Because I am, at heart, really awkward. I think it basically amounts to A) showing an interest in the other person, which people love, and B) not leaving conspicuous awkward silence by always having something to kick the conversation forward.
In school, I used to be very shy to the point that I would almost never initiate a conversation with anyone who wasn't my friend. It was awkward but the shyness became my identity and I later became afraid to break that social image, even though it was mostly negative.
I felt like everyone else was part of one cohesive hivemind and that they all understood and could relate to each other - I felt different; I didn't feel like I was a part of this hivemind and I couldn't connect with others in that way.
Later in college, I met more like-minded people and one of my friends used to say that the best way to overcome shyness is to intentionally try to humiliate yourself. I tied that out for myself and it helped a lot. I became a lot less shy over a few years but I still had the problem that I tried to please others. Also, I still didn't feel like I was part of the hivemind. I couldn't connect and interact with others with the same ease as they connected and interacted with each other.
10 years after finishing university, I had some very difficult career experiences. I encountered some really nasty people. Realizing how evil some people are helped me to get rid of my people-pleasing tendencies. Also, for some reason, nowadays it seems to have become impossible for me to humiliate myself by saying whatever comes to my mind. At work, I could share some really outlandish theories and ideas and it only made my colleagues treat me better and respect me more; this created a positive reinforcement which made me appear extroverted.
My personality did a full 180. I feel zero anxiety when talking to other people now, including large groups. I no longer have negative thoughts about myself like "I'm so dumb for having said that, it was so awkward" now I only judge other people, never myself. My self-confidence is very high now and I embrace any awkwardness.
My problem now is that people are sometimes intimidated by me because I always say what I think and I never follow any social convention or fear awkwardness.
Later in college, I met more like-minded people and one of my friends used to say that the best way to overcome shyness is to intentionally try to humiliate yourself. I tied that out for myself and it helped a lot. I became a lot less shy over a few years but I still had the problem that I tried to please others. Also, I still didn't feel like I was part of the hivemind. I couldn't connect and interact with others with the same ease as they connected and interacted with each other.
10 years after finishing university, I had some very difficult career experiences. I encountered some really nasty people. Realizing how evil some people are helped me to get rid of my people-pleasing tendencies. Also, for some reason, nowadays it seems to have become impossible for me to humiliate myself by saying whatever comes to my mind. At work, I could share some really outlandish theories and ideas and it only made my colleagues treat me better and respect me more; this created a positive reinforcement which made me appear extroverted.
My personality did a full 180. I feel zero anxiety when talking to other people now, including large groups. I no longer have negative thoughts about myself like "I'm so dumb for having said that, it was so awkward" now I only judge other people, never myself. My self-confidence is very high now and I embrace any awkwardness.
My problem now is that people are sometimes intimidated by me because I always say what I think and I never follow any social convention or fear awkwardness.
The best advice I got when I was a young nerd is to talk about things I'm interested in that also appear to be interesting to the other person. Being able to always reset the social exchange to a common ground of interests gives you so much space and safety to develop the rest of the skills like listening and small talk.
I also noticed that smiling is a bit of a cheatcode. When things go south sometimes just dropping a smile can quickly turn you from someone who appears to be mean spirited or weird to someone who simply didn't quite land the joke or a reference and is aware of it - which can make all the difference.
Finally, it's important to remember that you need to develop social skills just like any other skills so there's no shame in taking advantage of social lubricants like recreational drugs (e.g. alcohol, weed) or shared activities!
I also noticed that smiling is a bit of a cheatcode. When things go south sometimes just dropping a smile can quickly turn you from someone who appears to be mean spirited or weird to someone who simply didn't quite land the joke or a reference and is aware of it - which can make all the difference.
Finally, it's important to remember that you need to develop social skills just like any other skills so there's no shame in taking advantage of social lubricants like recreational drugs (e.g. alcohol, weed) or shared activities!
I got thrown, somewhat inadvertently, into a "service writer" position at a car dealership in my young 20s, when I was still extremely shy/awkward. It's basically service department sales. It was a hopping dealership, a well run money making machine and we were constantly hammered with business. Doing this job somewhat forced me to be more sociable, as the boss asked us to constantly 'build rapport' with our customers.
The other thing I realized was that I could be really loud in public and it drew attention to me. So I would do that intentionally. Just be really loud when ordering food at a restaurant or checking out or looking at stuff ... any time. This gets you used to being the center of attention, which is what 'shy you' doesn't want, and 'shy you' ends up disappearing over time.
The other thing I realized was that I could be really loud in public and it drew attention to me. So I would do that intentionally. Just be really loud when ordering food at a restaurant or checking out or looking at stuff ... any time. This gets you used to being the center of attention, which is what 'shy you' doesn't want, and 'shy you' ends up disappearing over time.
I worked on this hard in college. It was partially the "People age out of it..." that others mentioned... but there was one intentional step I did.
I said yes.
I made a decision in my sophmore year of college to say yes. Whenever someone invited me somewhere. Suggested an activity. Wanted to spend time with me in physical space (rather than video gamess) I said yes.
This ultimately helped me discover.. I was more extroverted than I thought. People liked me. My awkward humor was endearing... and a bunch of other things.
But really, I think it required me realizing _People wanted to spend time with me_. So much of the social awkwardness and introversion I experiences was really just my own fear and insecurities that "No one liked me". I wasn't attractive enough, funny enough, smart enough, thin enough, etc, etc. In the end... People liked me how I was.
I said yes.
I made a decision in my sophmore year of college to say yes. Whenever someone invited me somewhere. Suggested an activity. Wanted to spend time with me in physical space (rather than video gamess) I said yes.
This ultimately helped me discover.. I was more extroverted than I thought. People liked me. My awkward humor was endearing... and a bunch of other things.
But really, I think it required me realizing _People wanted to spend time with me_. So much of the social awkwardness and introversion I experiences was really just my own fear and insecurities that "No one liked me". I wasn't attractive enough, funny enough, smart enough, thin enough, etc, etc. In the end... People liked me how I was.
In high school I was very nervous speaking in front of people, but I enjoyed explaining the one-off calculus problem that was challenging to solve. In college, I tutored small group mathematics and chemistry classes (2-8 students per class, 1-3 classes per week). I then did Teach for America for 2 years (20-35 students per class, 5 classes per day). By the end of that, I could speak in front of thousands of people without breaking a sweat.
Pro-tip for public speaking: Never pause-out-loud. If you are going to say, "uh", "well", "like", etc. just don't say it. From an audience perspective, hearing, "Thank you all for coming, uh, we have a great special for you today..." is much worse than hearing, "Thank you all for coming (pause), we have a great special for you today."
Pro-tip for public speaking: Never pause-out-loud. If you are going to say, "uh", "well", "like", etc. just don't say it. From an audience perspective, hearing, "Thank you all for coming, uh, we have a great special for you today..." is much worse than hearing, "Thank you all for coming (pause), we have a great special for you today."
Hmm. Started working in retail at 16 (comic books): I think I felt comfortable because I was within the _framework_ of this brick and mortar business, and I loved comics. In college I was ‘volunteered’ to run a student club: times I needed to speak in front of an auditorium to introduce speakers were not fun. I had notes, but my brain stoped working. I suspect I would need more experience to get a feel of it. Left home and moved to NY and remade myself: I have learned to read people better and judge their intentions and compute my personal jeopardy more quickly. Most of the time I realize I’m just excited, and not nervous.
I have overcome my awkwardness over time by having new experiences, and separating myself from my childhood support and striking out to make it on my own. As my dad used to say, ‘fake it until you make it.’
I have overcome my awkwardness over time by having new experiences, and separating myself from my childhood support and striking out to make it on my own. As my dad used to say, ‘fake it until you make it.’
When I was young, a bit tongue tied, poor and full of bad judgement, I spent a lot of time hitchhiking across Europe.
Talking to lots of more or less crazy drivers several times a day, week after week, unlocked something in me, and since then I've been able to have a pretty good conversation with anyone about anything.
Talking to lots of more or less crazy drivers several times a day, week after week, unlocked something in me, and since then I've been able to have a pretty good conversation with anyone about anything.
I read the comment here and haven't see what helped me, so I thought I'd chime in although I might be a bit late to the thread...
I stopped trying to be 'funny' in terms of what everyone else thought was funny - such as like making popular tv references, joshing little things, or 'dad' jokes.
Then started to actually say out loud my own sense of humor, which is absurdist. It changed everything for me, like if you're trying to tell jokes, the only thing that matters is if you find them funny, that is confidance, saying somthing silly you love instead of trying super hard to make others laugh. That was a turning point for me. I guess the advice is 'be yourself' or 'you do you' but that sounds so basic, but it is also true, you'll relax if you stop trying so hard and just be yourself.
I stopped trying to be 'funny' in terms of what everyone else thought was funny - such as like making popular tv references, joshing little things, or 'dad' jokes.
Then started to actually say out loud my own sense of humor, which is absurdist. It changed everything for me, like if you're trying to tell jokes, the only thing that matters is if you find them funny, that is confidance, saying somthing silly you love instead of trying super hard to make others laugh. That was a turning point for me. I guess the advice is 'be yourself' or 'you do you' but that sounds so basic, but it is also true, you'll relax if you stop trying so hard and just be yourself.
Four small points -- I'm a guy, have tried to learn as a guy, and am aiming my remarks at guys:
(1) There is a cliche with a lot of truth: "Boys pay attention to things, and girls, to people." So, tough for a boy to be as good with people as a girl, and a boy, man, should not be ashamed or discouraged because they are less good with people than the girls, women. But, to do better, to some extent can borrow from the girls -- a LOT of girls work REALLY hard to be good with people, so to borrow a little just work a little at being good with people: Pay attention to people, notice how they act, what they seem to be thinking, feeling, etc. E.g., notice their emotional state and how your behavior seems to be affecting that.
Uh, here I say girl because this problem of doing well with people has its roots back at least to middle school where the females were girls or maybe young women but not yet women (although, if we are to understand people, we should notice, at least admit, that Mother Nature regards a lot of middle school girls as already 100% women, and that fact likely has a lot of the girls already taking adult life really seriously because they understand that Mother Nature regards them as 100% women).
(2) If person X is afraid, of nearly anything, rejection, money, etc., people can feel that, and it can make them feel uncomfortable and reject X (flat statement about why children are rejected by their peers, from T. Berry Brazelton). Soooo, try to get fears under control.
(3) People can respect strength, accomplishment, hard work. E.g., a few times I was in some tough competitions and totally blew away all the competitors. People didn't let me know right away, but later I discovered, by accident, that some people had a lot of respect for me for that.
(4) To build on (3), it can be easy to get treated badly, even really badly, due to people being jealous of where you won. But the upside of that is, some of the people not treating you badly are respecting you and ready to be nice to you.
(1) There is a cliche with a lot of truth: "Boys pay attention to things, and girls, to people." So, tough for a boy to be as good with people as a girl, and a boy, man, should not be ashamed or discouraged because they are less good with people than the girls, women. But, to do better, to some extent can borrow from the girls -- a LOT of girls work REALLY hard to be good with people, so to borrow a little just work a little at being good with people: Pay attention to people, notice how they act, what they seem to be thinking, feeling, etc. E.g., notice their emotional state and how your behavior seems to be affecting that.
Uh, here I say girl because this problem of doing well with people has its roots back at least to middle school where the females were girls or maybe young women but not yet women (although, if we are to understand people, we should notice, at least admit, that Mother Nature regards a lot of middle school girls as already 100% women, and that fact likely has a lot of the girls already taking adult life really seriously because they understand that Mother Nature regards them as 100% women).
(2) If person X is afraid, of nearly anything, rejection, money, etc., people can feel that, and it can make them feel uncomfortable and reject X (flat statement about why children are rejected by their peers, from T. Berry Brazelton). Soooo, try to get fears under control.
(3) People can respect strength, accomplishment, hard work. E.g., a few times I was in some tough competitions and totally blew away all the competitors. People didn't let me know right away, but later I discovered, by accident, that some people had a lot of respect for me for that.
(4) To build on (3), it can be easy to get treated badly, even really badly, due to people being jealous of where you won. But the upside of that is, some of the people not treating you badly are respecting you and ready to be nice to you.
I got a job at a call center in college to pay the bills. Had to give up the luxury of being shy very quickly.
1. Set realistic goals and keep in mind a lot of social stuff that people pull off isn't effortless, they put A TON of work in.
2. Confidence boosts: gym, clothing style, telling friends about your vulnerabilities and feelings (there's no better feeling than being told by a friend that what you worried is something they really never saw or cared about), inviting people to things.
3. Too much blushing and physical vulnerability may be fixable with exposure therapy or may require medication. It may also be a result of Asperger's. Don't be afraid of seeking medical help for stuff that's out of your control.
4. Realise that ALL HUMANS are broken in some fundamental way and that includes the person next to you. So don't be afraid to interact with them and do not assume they'll judge you harshly.
2. Confidence boosts: gym, clothing style, telling friends about your vulnerabilities and feelings (there's no better feeling than being told by a friend that what you worried is something they really never saw or cared about), inviting people to things.
3. Too much blushing and physical vulnerability may be fixable with exposure therapy or may require medication. It may also be a result of Asperger's. Don't be afraid of seeking medical help for stuff that's out of your control.
4. Realise that ALL HUMANS are broken in some fundamental way and that includes the person next to you. So don't be afraid to interact with them and do not assume they'll judge you harshly.
I didn't improve much over time, really. The big improvement is accepting who I am and being more conscious about pros and cons of various character traits.
Worth reading Rohr's book about the Enneagram; you don't need to care at all about the religious aspect of it but it explains that very often it's the stuff that can help you build up your life is also what makes you suffer, just manifesting in a different way. Learning to love both the darker and the brighter side of your personality helps with living a more harmonious life. (It does not necessarily help with those awkward moments, but you can accept them as a long distance runner accepts that there are hours when you suffer and hours when you enjoy the ride, and these don't exist without each other.)
Worth reading Rohr's book about the Enneagram; you don't need to care at all about the religious aspect of it but it explains that very often it's the stuff that can help you build up your life is also what makes you suffer, just manifesting in a different way. Learning to love both the darker and the brighter side of your personality helps with living a more harmonious life. (It does not necessarily help with those awkward moments, but you can accept them as a long distance runner accepts that there are hours when you suffer and hours when you enjoy the ride, and these don't exist without each other.)
I still have major problems of socialization but I succeeded to pass to the “in” group.
- It happened during the integration week in engineering school. Cohesion games, scream together, talk loud, it really transformed me. Now I’m part of the socialization. I’m 38.
- I would say it can’t happen without alcohol, unfortunately. It’s both a social signal and an actual mood changer. Use it, but quit as soon as you’re in. Use it to gain the “street cred” and move on to better friends. Friends you get through alcohol are false friends, they/you use alcohol to hide the lack of unity and the lack of depth in your relationship. So don’t dwell of friends you made through alcohol.
- You can search for a girlfriend without going through the socialization step. Don’t postpone the gf thing.
- It happened during the integration week in engineering school. Cohesion games, scream together, talk loud, it really transformed me. Now I’m part of the socialization. I’m 38.
- I would say it can’t happen without alcohol, unfortunately. It’s both a social signal and an actual mood changer. Use it, but quit as soon as you’re in. Use it to gain the “street cred” and move on to better friends. Friends you get through alcohol are false friends, they/you use alcohol to hide the lack of unity and the lack of depth in your relationship. So don’t dwell of friends you made through alcohol.
- You can search for a girlfriend without going through the socialization step. Don’t postpone the gf thing.
Keep in mind that most people are uncomfortable with new situations. So helping them feel comfortable with you will ultimately help you.
-Get in situations where you need to interact with people, such as a job that deals with others.
-Keep up to date with current events. You need to be interesting so being able to speak on current events helps. Read nonfiction books. They help add to your knowledge.
-Be a master of the short conversation. Read books on how to improve your conversations.
There is no magic tonic. The more you try the better you'll get at it. Like they say, practice makes perfect.
Their are people that are extremely anxious in public situations so they should seek treatment. But make sure you try everything short of pills to get over your anxiety. Taking pills is never the best thing to try first.
-Get in situations where you need to interact with people, such as a job that deals with others.
-Keep up to date with current events. You need to be interesting so being able to speak on current events helps. Read nonfiction books. They help add to your knowledge.
-Be a master of the short conversation. Read books on how to improve your conversations.
There is no magic tonic. The more you try the better you'll get at it. Like they say, practice makes perfect.
Their are people that are extremely anxious in public situations so they should seek treatment. But make sure you try everything short of pills to get over your anxiety. Taking pills is never the best thing to try first.
"everything changes dramatically" - Practice each little bit one element at a time.
Posture is a great place to start. Just practice making sure that you keep a confident posture. Standing up straight. Shoulders back and relaxed. Head looking forward and alert. Focus on keeping your posture. A lot of how people read "confidence" is noticing these cues. It will become second nature if you practice.
Check out "power posing" also. Works for some people, doesn't work for others. Totally works for me.
For your voice, what is it doing? Probably going up higher? That's because your muscles in your neck are tightening up. Gotta keep them relaxed. I bet you'll find when you get your relaxed posture in place that your voice will change less also.
Posture is a great place to start. Just practice making sure that you keep a confident posture. Standing up straight. Shoulders back and relaxed. Head looking forward and alert. Focus on keeping your posture. A lot of how people read "confidence" is noticing these cues. It will become second nature if you practice.
Check out "power posing" also. Works for some people, doesn't work for others. Totally works for me.
For your voice, what is it doing? Probably going up higher? That's because your muscles in your neck are tightening up. Gotta keep them relaxed. I bet you'll find when you get your relaxed posture in place that your voice will change less also.
It depends on your goals. If your goals are to be popular and attractive, then, yeah, there's a very standard track for you; practice social interaction, learn various tricks, learn how to make yourself attractive (nice body, nice hair, nice clothes). But if your goal is to just feel comfortable around random people, then embrace the awkward. Don't be self-deprecating about it, but be "out" about being socially awkward. Tell people how you feel in the moment, and don't judge them for their reaction (lots of people just don't know what to do in non-standard social situations). If you want, exaggerate the voice, posture, etc. Make it fun. Be authentic/true to yourself.
0) Everyone's path is different
1) Stop judging others, even if others are doing it
2) Develop an internal monologue of empathy
1) Stop judging others, even if others are doing it
2) Develop an internal monologue of empathy
> It's common to advise hitting on the gym, which I just started doing last week. Funnily, the gym is the place where I last noticed my awkward behavior :)
I haven't really been in any major social situations lately because of Covid, but I started going to the gym 5 months ago and I find I feel more confident now, just because I feel better about myself and my body I guess. Feeling more confident makes me feel less awkward, although we will see. In any case, if you just started last week, give it some time. Once you start to see physical results, you should start feeling better and that may help you be less awkward too. For me, it took a few months, so it won't be an overnight change.
I haven't really been in any major social situations lately because of Covid, but I started going to the gym 5 months ago and I find I feel more confident now, just because I feel better about myself and my body I guess. Feeling more confident makes me feel less awkward, although we will see. In any case, if you just started last week, give it some time. Once you start to see physical results, you should start feeling better and that may help you be less awkward too. For me, it took a few months, so it won't be an overnight change.
I was put through Assertiveness Training.
That’s a key phrase that you can probably google, there are many places that do it.
My course was quite intensive and took a while, but in the early stages it was defining what “assertive” means as opposed to “aggressive” or “passive”. Once you identify what’s different it can be easier to assert yourself.
Another part of the training was to make eye contact with strangers as you walk passed them, this was to get you used to making eye contact with people so that you could make eye contact during conversations comfortably.
It worked for me, I’m probably too assertive now though, as the way confidence (and assertiveness) work is that having more of it makes you have even more of it in a self-fulfilling cycle.
That’s a key phrase that you can probably google, there are many places that do it.
My course was quite intensive and took a while, but in the early stages it was defining what “assertive” means as opposed to “aggressive” or “passive”. Once you identify what’s different it can be easier to assert yourself.
Another part of the training was to make eye contact with strangers as you walk passed them, this was to get you used to making eye contact with people so that you could make eye contact during conversations comfortably.
It worked for me, I’m probably too assertive now though, as the way confidence (and assertiveness) work is that having more of it makes you have even more of it in a self-fulfilling cycle.
I could reply to this for hours and wish you the best.
I will say, I am in my 40s and so what I will share now is different than I would have 20 years ago and would probably share 20 from now but.
- Self-improvement is a good thing to aspire to, improve the things that prevent you from having what you want. But realize there is a tax to this. - Own it. It's ok to be socially awkward and shy. There are jobs, lifestyles, communities and passions that suit those of us with these traits.
No-one is happy being someone who they are not. So, even if you change the characteristics you currently have to get to a different place, know that it could ultimately make you less happy when you get there if you are not true to yourself.
I will say, I am in my 40s and so what I will share now is different than I would have 20 years ago and would probably share 20 from now but.
- Self-improvement is a good thing to aspire to, improve the things that prevent you from having what you want. But realize there is a tax to this. - Own it. It's ok to be socially awkward and shy. There are jobs, lifestyles, communities and passions that suit those of us with these traits.
No-one is happy being someone who they are not. So, even if you change the characteristics you currently have to get to a different place, know that it could ultimately make you less happy when you get there if you are not true to yourself.
There is a quote by Kafka on the front of my keyboard:
> Beyond a certain point there is no return. This point has to be reached.
Most of the exiting, good and spectacular things in life happen when you make yourself cross some boundaries, when you leave your comfort zone or put yourself into certain positions where you either have to give up and feel bad or pull through and end up in a new place.
Doing sports will also help. An actress gave me this advice once as well: She asked which one comes first, the confident/sad/aggeessive posture or the in er feeling that leads to that posture. She said you can also simply turn it around: Put your body in a confident pose, and you will automatically act more confident.
> Beyond a certain point there is no return. This point has to be reached.
Most of the exiting, good and spectacular things in life happen when you make yourself cross some boundaries, when you leave your comfort zone or put yourself into certain positions where you either have to give up and feel bad or pull through and end up in a new place.
Doing sports will also help. An actress gave me this advice once as well: She asked which one comes first, the confident/sad/aggeessive posture or the in er feeling that leads to that posture. She said you can also simply turn it around: Put your body in a confident pose, and you will automatically act more confident.
Had the same issue and came out of it.
Read about the giants of history, regardless of what you think of them at this moment. You'll learn a lot, but also learn behaviors to emulate (or avoid).
Julius Caesar is probably Exhibit A of a heroic figure, in the classical sense. Martin Luther (the German guy) too, in a different way. Both are fun to read about and just being around them, as it were, will make you more courageous.
True stories are better than fiction in this regard because they're anchored in reality. With fiction, the rules of the world are recast by the author and deep down, you know it isn't real. With historical figures you can't help but think "wow a real person did this."
Read about the giants of history, regardless of what you think of them at this moment. You'll learn a lot, but also learn behaviors to emulate (or avoid).
Julius Caesar is probably Exhibit A of a heroic figure, in the classical sense. Martin Luther (the German guy) too, in a different way. Both are fun to read about and just being around them, as it were, will make you more courageous.
True stories are better than fiction in this regard because they're anchored in reality. With fiction, the rules of the world are recast by the author and deep down, you know it isn't real. With historical figures you can't help but think "wow a real person did this."
Reading books out loud to my kids, hamming it up, acting out the parts.
if I go a couple of days on a deep project and my wife does story time instead then I start to stutter and my words become scattered.
If you don’t have kids, maybe just read adult fiction to yourself out loud.
if I go a couple of days on a deep project and my wife does story time instead then I start to stutter and my words become scattered.
If you don’t have kids, maybe just read adult fiction to yourself out loud.
Making art in the broad meaning of the word. I became an amateur actor. Then an amateur director. I forced myself to read poetry. That type of things helped me the most. I'm 54 now, but I started doing these things during my late teens.
Here are a few steps you can take.
- Regular physical exercise(running, hiking, workout, sports, etc)
- Some form of meditation practice (Checkout tm.org)
- Therapy/coaching where an experienced person can give you tailored advice
- Investing in improving public speaking skills
- Improving knowledge and expertise in one or more areas
- Taking on projects(work or personal) and showing impact to others
Don't try to do all of them at once but maybe take baby steps every day. Consistency is more important in the long term. During this process, be very kind to yourself. This is where meditation will help you to see your positives and negatives as an observer without being judgmental. If you stay it, you will improve and will see amazing changes. Good luck!
- Regular physical exercise(running, hiking, workout, sports, etc)
- Some form of meditation practice (Checkout tm.org)
- Therapy/coaching where an experienced person can give you tailored advice
- Investing in improving public speaking skills
- Improving knowledge and expertise in one or more areas
- Taking on projects(work or personal) and showing impact to others
Don't try to do all of them at once but maybe take baby steps every day. Consistency is more important in the long term. During this process, be very kind to yourself. This is where meditation will help you to see your positives and negatives as an observer without being judgmental. If you stay it, you will improve and will see amazing changes. Good luck!
Step #1 is to find out if you have social anxiety disorder. Online quizzes can be pretty accurate—try this one: https://nationalsocialanxietycenter.com/liebowitz-sa-scale/
If you do have it, get cognitive behavioral therapy! I did CBT online because I was too anxious to go to a real therapist, and it made a bigger difference in my life than anything else I’ve ever done, ever.
Yes, I had done all the advice in this thread—regular gymgoer, put myself out there a lot, had a retail job, etc. Nothing really helped until I got the CBT I needed.
If you do have it, get cognitive behavioral therapy! I did CBT online because I was too anxious to go to a real therapist, and it made a bigger difference in my life than anything else I’ve ever done, ever.
Yes, I had done all the advice in this thread—regular gymgoer, put myself out there a lot, had a retail job, etc. Nothing really helped until I got the CBT I needed.
It was realizing I could train my mind/social abilities the same way I trained my body in the gym. In the gym, if your goal is to increase strength you build up slowly incrementing weights as you get stronger. The same idea can be applied to the mind. I realized I was very awkward in situations where I didn’t know people, so I started coming up with little workouts to train myself to be more comfortable with strangers- the easiest thing is to give complements. You’re in line to get a coffee, you see someone with cool shoes “nice shoes” and the person says “thanks!” Then when that gets easy, you increase the challenge.
An intense psilocybin trip took me to the peak of it, I accepted it, and was then shown the other side, and how completely ridiculous it is. Once shown the path it still took me some time to walk it, but gradually in the 2 years that followed it faded.
I'm not saying the solution is psilocybin. I'm saying that the solution (for me anyway) is to put yourself in a position where you experience tons of social anxiety, and accepting that you are anxious, and not try and fight it, and feel it for what it is. An alternative could be public speaking training, like Toastmasters. If you keep going every week, you are destined to improve.
I'm not saying the solution is psilocybin. I'm saying that the solution (for me anyway) is to put yourself in a position where you experience tons of social anxiety, and accepting that you are anxious, and not try and fight it, and feel it for what it is. An alternative could be public speaking training, like Toastmasters. If you keep going every week, you are destined to improve.
I improved a lot after meeting my first (ex) girlfriend through a dating app. She liked going out and one of the places we'd go was a Pub near her parent's house with live music. Initially I felt ackward there. After going there a few times and specially when the band was playing songs I liked (and with a little help from good beer) I started loosening up. I'm not really sure why but from that point forward I started not really carying anymore about "other people looking at me" when I'm enjoying the moment and having fun. It's like I flippled the "I don't care" switch on.
Gym is great, but I would strongly advice going into martial arts classes, for examble thai-boxing or jiu-jitsu. You'll get a boost in self-confidence overall, but also will learn how to communicate with other people when being split to pairs for 1x1 training. That will help combating a lot of social awkwardness and inabvility to speak to new people.
Another one is: try getting into more managerial position at work — that naturally implies more communication, meetings, presentations and such, so you will learn by practice.
Speaking from personal experience, also being shy initially — still am but much much less, it is practically a non-issue anymore.
Another one is: try getting into more managerial position at work — that naturally implies more communication, meetings, presentations and such, so you will learn by practice.
Speaking from personal experience, also being shy initially — still am but much much less, it is practically a non-issue anymore.
I've never been particularly shy, but I have been socially awkward, all my life.
It has gotten drastically better, but still leaks out a bit, here and there (I'm a bit "on the spectrum," so social awkwardness is de rigueur for me).
A lot of it has been age. As I have gotten older, what others think of me, has played a rapidly decreasing role in my life.
Also, I have participated in an unusual organization for my entire adult life, that has helped me to deal with my social issues. It is not something that I'm willing to discuss in public (yes, it's one of those organizations), but that's what helped me.
It has gotten drastically better, but still leaks out a bit, here and there (I'm a bit "on the spectrum," so social awkwardness is de rigueur for me).
A lot of it has been age. As I have gotten older, what others think of me, has played a rapidly decreasing role in my life.
Also, I have participated in an unusual organization for my entire adult life, that has helped me to deal with my social issues. It is not something that I'm willing to discuss in public (yes, it's one of those organizations), but that's what helped me.
Be other focused, not self focused. You have to want to interact with people. You can cultivate that (if you don't have it naturally) by working towards a real interest in other people, who they are, what they like, what they can teach you, etc. Learn to listen, to ask questions, to remember names and details. In practicing that, you may find you are no longer anxious. The real benefit, though, is that you will make friends much easier and find that you really do like people and social interactions. (P.S. this will also make you better at work and any other interactive relationship.)
Step outside your comfort zone. Also start attending these events by alternative crowd, do a yoga teacher training or do retreats in improv or yoga or whatever (this may be too expensive, in that case I recommend psychadelics or hitchhiking as a cheap way to break these walls). The key thing to remember is that when people look at you like you are taking up space and make you feel that you don't belong then you feel bad so DON'T DO THAT. Always strive to be someone who makes others feel like they are welcome and that they belong. That is how you would want to be treated after all.
I'm not going to say that it was a radical improvement, but following these two courses from the guild of the rose did help.
https://guildoftherose.org/courses/context-and-communication...
https://guildoftherose.org/courses/practical-social-networki...
The material is free online.
https://guildoftherose.org/courses/context-and-communication...
https://guildoftherose.org/courses/practical-social-networki...
The material is free online.
Having surrogate older bothers (aka older friends) has been helpful for me because they've been through what I'm going through and are at a point where they've reflected enough and know what I should and shouldn't be caring about. Of course they can be emulated when you notice they're being really effective socially-speaking.
I'm not saying you can just "pick up older friends, bruh", but if you end up with a friend who's in the older brother/sister age range, take advantage (in a good way) because you can learn from them and they will almost always be happy to be a kind of role model for you.
Writing down a "post mortem" after attending significant social events has helped me quite a lot as well. It's always good to write down thoughts while they're fresh, connect some dots, and hopefully remember something you've learned the next time.
While there's something to be said about living in the moment, reflection is super important. It's easy to coast through life, have things happen to you, screw up, and then continue repeating similar patterns. Writing down any relevant ideas and reviewing them prevents valuable insight from going immediately down the toilet.
One more thing is to practice looking people in the eyes. I'm bad at this because when I get thinking in depth about a topic, my eyes start to wander. But when the other person is speaking I've gotten much better about keeping eye contact. Just going in public and practicing looking at random people in the eyes was a big help. Yeah, it's awkward, and maybe it makes some people uncomfortable. You're gonna have to get used to making some people uncomfortable if you want to have good social skills, ironically, because otherwise you'll be too concerned about how you're perceived to the point where you're not making anyone comfortable. Maybe you'll creep some people out, but some people will look you in the eyes and smile back at you.
Somehow overcoming the eye contact thing permeates a bit into the rest of your social skills. You have to have a certain level of confidence to do it properly and to not think twice about it, and many aspects of social skills just have to do with confidence.
I'm not saying you can just "pick up older friends, bruh", but if you end up with a friend who's in the older brother/sister age range, take advantage (in a good way) because you can learn from them and they will almost always be happy to be a kind of role model for you.
Writing down a "post mortem" after attending significant social events has helped me quite a lot as well. It's always good to write down thoughts while they're fresh, connect some dots, and hopefully remember something you've learned the next time.
While there's something to be said about living in the moment, reflection is super important. It's easy to coast through life, have things happen to you, screw up, and then continue repeating similar patterns. Writing down any relevant ideas and reviewing them prevents valuable insight from going immediately down the toilet.
One more thing is to practice looking people in the eyes. I'm bad at this because when I get thinking in depth about a topic, my eyes start to wander. But when the other person is speaking I've gotten much better about keeping eye contact. Just going in public and practicing looking at random people in the eyes was a big help. Yeah, it's awkward, and maybe it makes some people uncomfortable. You're gonna have to get used to making some people uncomfortable if you want to have good social skills, ironically, because otherwise you'll be too concerned about how you're perceived to the point where you're not making anyone comfortable. Maybe you'll creep some people out, but some people will look you in the eyes and smile back at you.
Somehow overcoming the eye contact thing permeates a bit into the rest of your social skills. You have to have a certain level of confidence to do it properly and to not think twice about it, and many aspects of social skills just have to do with confidence.
Other advice here is good, but I think it's worth pointing out that psychology, spirituality, and religion contain the tools for working on problems like this.
Fundamentally: you are afraid, so you will want to work with tools that work with fear. That's probably most of them.
Prayer, psychedelics, meditation, any of the thousands of healing traditions, shamanic traditions, psychoanalysis, personal development methodologies.
What's important is to open yourself to the possibility that life could be *a lot* better, and that there are more avenues to achieving that than you can count. Stay curious and try things.
Fundamentally: you are afraid, so you will want to work with tools that work with fear. That's probably most of them.
Prayer, psychedelics, meditation, any of the thousands of healing traditions, shamanic traditions, psychoanalysis, personal development methodologies.
What's important is to open yourself to the possibility that life could be *a lot* better, and that there are more avenues to achieving that than you can count. Stay curious and try things.
I don’t think I was awkward, but I was definitely shy. I improved in two ways:
1) Self-help books. I read a lot of them in my 20s. You name it, I read it.
2) Pushing myself to try out what I learn in the books again and again. Whether it was body-language stuff, or how to build rapport when talking, how to appear more confident, etc I tried it all. It was always on my mind. And essentially I faked it till I made it.
I often pushed myself to interact with strangers when it wasn’t necessary. Saying a few extra words to the checkout person, telling someone you love their jacket, always smiling in those interactions, etc.
1) Self-help books. I read a lot of them in my 20s. You name it, I read it.
2) Pushing myself to try out what I learn in the books again and again. Whether it was body-language stuff, or how to build rapport when talking, how to appear more confident, etc I tried it all. It was always on my mind. And essentially I faked it till I made it.
I often pushed myself to interact with strangers when it wasn’t necessary. Saying a few extra words to the checkout person, telling someone you love their jacket, always smiling in those interactions, etc.
I'm not sure that being shy or introverted is a problem that needs to be solved.
That being said, I'm a lot less introverted when I have a job to do. If I'm at a party with 50 people, I'm going to be against the wall, hanging out with 2-3 people, and facing the entrances/exits. But if I have to train 50 people? I'll do what I need to do. I still prefer not to have my back to the entrance/exit, but I can be an engaging speaker. When I have a job to do.
If you find that anxiety really negatively impacts your life, cognitive behavioral therapy can help.
That being said, I'm a lot less introverted when I have a job to do. If I'm at a party with 50 people, I'm going to be against the wall, hanging out with 2-3 people, and facing the entrances/exits. But if I have to train 50 people? I'll do what I need to do. I still prefer not to have my back to the entrance/exit, but I can be an engaging speaker. When I have a job to do.
If you find that anxiety really negatively impacts your life, cognitive behavioral therapy can help.
Unfortunately, for me the cure for social anxiety was drugs and alcohol. I recently went to rehab for the first time, and I have 4 months of sobriety...my longest stretch of sobriety in my adult life (I'm 41). Being social and sober is a challenge for me. On the plus side 12 step programs are an awesome way to meet sober, caring individuals.
The therapy and classes I took in rehab were absolutely life changing. Healthy relationships...what are those? Boundaries? Never heard of em! I've had to learn intellectually what some people are fortunate enough to intuit.
The therapy and classes I took in rehab were absolutely life changing. Healthy relationships...what are those? Boundaries? Never heard of em! I've had to learn intellectually what some people are fortunate enough to intuit.
Try and be genuinely interested in people, but use a conversation mnemonic to find common ground topics:
F family O occupation R recreation D dreams
P pets H holidays
If you can find topics that make people excited to talk about, everything becomes much easier
F family O occupation R recreation D dreams
P pets H holidays
If you can find topics that make people excited to talk about, everything becomes much easier
How to Win Friends and Influence People is well worth a read. It helped me start to think more about how to put myself in others shoes and ask, "how can I make this person feel good about themselves and important?" Focusing on that made it easier for me to approach people because it gave me some type of guidance on how to interact that made me a little less self conscious since I was thinking more about the other person.
(And I don't mean to gloss over that it is took a lot of work, but it was one thing that helped me. Best of luck!)
(And I don't mean to gloss over that it is took a lot of work, but it was one thing that helped me. Best of luck!)
Surround yourself with good supportive people and avoid those who put you down.
In my younger years, you can't avoid the people who tend to project their insecurities on you: bullies, primadonnas, etc. Schools and workplaces are mixed bags, where often people make friends based on superficial characteristics.
Places where I found supportive people: * Startup scene * Church groups * Tech groups * Mentorship groups
These folks helped me see life in a more balanced way. People aren't out to get you, they are just thinking about how others think about themselves. Same as you.
In my younger years, you can't avoid the people who tend to project their insecurities on you: bullies, primadonnas, etc. Schools and workplaces are mixed bags, where often people make friends based on superficial characteristics.
Places where I found supportive people: * Startup scene * Church groups * Tech groups * Mentorship groups
These folks helped me see life in a more balanced way. People aren't out to get you, they are just thinking about how others think about themselves. Same as you.
For me therapy has worked. I always had a ton of anxiety of how I was perceived in social context and it would cripple me. Therapy put into context how skewed those thoughts were and through therapy I learned techniques to overcome the wave of anxiety.
Also, here is a less cliched answer. I do interviews at work and have to do a behavioral one. I feel like it's given me a lot of practice with just meeting people for the first time and striking off a conversation. I've used those skills in my day to day life and it works great.
Also, here is a less cliched answer. I do interviews at work and have to do a behavioral one. I feel like it's given me a lot of practice with just meeting people for the first time and striking off a conversation. I've used those skills in my day to day life and it works great.
Started wearing a cloak instead of a coat. Got lots of weird looks, and the occasional "Nice cape". Forced myself not to care about the weird looks, until I was used to it. Then stopped wearing the cloak everywhere.
Almost never got actual rude remarks to my face. Most of the catastrophizing was in my head, nothing bad came of it. Eventually I absorbed the lesson for myself and didn't need to worry about (most) other people's opinions.
Basically I just doubled down on being weird, until I stopped being embarrassed by my own weirdness.
Almost never got actual rude remarks to my face. Most of the catastrophizing was in my head, nothing bad came of it. Eventually I absorbed the lesson for myself and didn't need to worry about (most) other people's opinions.
Basically I just doubled down on being weird, until I stopped being embarrassed by my own weirdness.
I personally found the book How to be an Imperfectionist helpful. I don't remember many specifics, but it did help me feel different and I worried less about looking silly, or fumbling my words, etc. I've read many self-help books, but this is the only one that made an effortless and lasting change to who I am.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25692561-how-to-be-an-im...
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25692561-how-to-be-an-im...
Some advice a friend once gave me is to “pretend” you’re more social than you are and kinda act the part, even if it doesn’t feel like it’s “you”. Eventually it will start to feel more natural.
I am normally very reserved. Quiet, bookish.
I was traveling alone in the Caribbean and on the flight I decided the trip would be more fun if I had friends. I decided to just say hi to every person and strike up a conversation if they were interested.
I made a crew of 8 friends, we did everything together and kept in touch for years.
Just make a point to say hi and be open to having a conversation.
If you can’t think of anything to say: Speak about something you find interesting Engage with the person you’re talking to and figure out what they’re interested in
I made a crew of 8 friends, we did everything together and kept in touch for years.
Just make a point to say hi and be open to having a conversation.
If you can’t think of anything to say: Speak about something you find interesting Engage with the person you’re talking to and figure out what they’re interested in
It is mostly practice. You don't become less awkward, you learn it, and if you don't use it, then you'll lose it too. This is important because however you choose to practice engaging, needs to be sustainable for you. Drastic things that you can't keep up are probably not going to give you lasting results.
I recommend taking a bar job, maybe part time. I did that for some time and found my ability to deal with these situations improved dramatically, through the practice of talking with folk at the bar.
I recommend taking a bar job, maybe part time. I did that for some time and found my ability to deal with these situations improved dramatically, through the practice of talking with folk at the bar.
Bonus idea: Have a prop whenever you can. I saw a guy at party bring a Rubix cube and you wouldn’t believe how many people came up to talk to him. Instant ice breaker.
What are some of your ideas for props?
What are some of your ideas for props?
Unless this prop is used as a comfort totem and you can't get your hands off or your attention away.
Alter egos.
Seriously. Try to have an alter ego that is outgoing and different than you today.
If you don't care for that idea, try comedy improv, meetups, and many other activities where you have to talk to people to be successful.
As you build confidence, it's much easier to manage. For me, it was a combination of doing something that scared the heck out of me. That happened to be performing in front of an audience to make them laugh. And I would work on things I was insecure about such as my body by going to the gym to lift weights and run.
Seriously. Try to have an alter ego that is outgoing and different than you today.
If you don't care for that idea, try comedy improv, meetups, and many other activities where you have to talk to people to be successful.
As you build confidence, it's much easier to manage. For me, it was a combination of doing something that scared the heck out of me. That happened to be performing in front of an audience to make them laugh. And I would work on things I was insecure about such as my body by going to the gym to lift weights and run.
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Getting married helped a lot. Having children was the final nail in the coffin. I'm me and I'm complete (from my own perspective of what it means to me complete) and I can go into any social interaction now with the belief that anyone who doesn't like me is there problem. If I have difficulty conversing with someone, I can always just walk away and play with my kids, kiss my wife, and declare a win. That's what it feels like, at least. And that's good enough.
Join a club; backpack travel; get a job handing out fliers; say hello to everyone you walk past. Just do it. Repeatedly. Don't judge yourself after each encounter. Instantly drop any negative feelings and move on to the next encounter.
My big epiphany was that my shyness was costing me way too much. It's uncomfortable to think about the friends and opportunities I let go because I was too shy. Never again. I'd rather look stupid to most for the sake of the few that understand me.
My big epiphany was that my shyness was costing me way too much. It's uncomfortable to think about the friends and opportunities I let go because I was too shy. Never again. I'd rather look stupid to most for the sake of the few that understand me.
Push yourself to regularly do some of the things that you avoid doing because they make you uncomfortable. For example water cooler talk used to be hard for me as it felt really awkward. So I would regularly try to strike up a conversation with people despite being terrified. The big change for me came when work wanted me to do some presales and face to face meeting with clients. It was hard but very worth it, now I have successes I can point myself to when things get bad.
I’d say it’s just a matter of exposure and practice. If you force yourself to spend a lot of time in the kinds of situations that make you awkward, eventually you’ll figure out how to handle them, how to speak, how to react, what to say when etc. The more familiar it feels, the less self conscious and awkward you’ll feel.
And remember, people don’t care. People only think about themselves anyway, even if they notice your awkwardness they’ll forget it five minutes later so it doesn’t matter.
And remember, people don’t care. People only think about themselves anyway, even if they notice your awkwardness they’ll forget it five minutes later so it doesn’t matter.
> depending on the context I can be seemingly confident and calm
This ought to be great to be able to know. It means you can probably moderate your social exposure to fit your experience level and build on a known foundation.
Success is much easier if you can define the social context you're aiming for beforehand, and slowly work at mastery. If you open the filter too much too early (i.e. I want to be able to be social anytime & anywhere), it's overwhelming.
Good luck, you got this. (Personality trainer)
This ought to be great to be able to know. It means you can probably moderate your social exposure to fit your experience level and build on a known foundation.
Success is much easier if you can define the social context you're aiming for beforehand, and slowly work at mastery. If you open the filter too much too early (i.e. I want to be able to be social anytime & anywhere), it's overwhelming.
Good luck, you got this. (Personality trainer)
For me the biggest thing was realizing that being socially awkward sometimes is not necessarily a problem. After I realized it was part of me, I didn't work to change it or improve it, but I learned how to deal with it. I'm still socially awkward sometimes, but in those moments I become self conscious and can do my best to think things through while also eliminating the useless thoughts ("what if that person over there thinks I'm weird?").
Don't succumb to the social pressure of the herd mentality. Be proud of what and who you are. Different is good. Try to be the best that you can be and all will be OK.
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I concur with the suggestion elsewhere on this page to try ToastMasters (though I think you should really try to commit to at least the introductory sequence, to get good value out of it).
I also concur with the advice that dealing with social interactions is like muscle training: you need to do it repeatedly, and semi-regularly. And also, yes, it may be a little painful at first; and may feel very artificial--that's OK. A good place to practice: in a grocery store line, with whomever is behind you; and possibly with the checker, if they don't look stressed already.
I didn't see MeetUps mentioned already, but I've found them great. That's because they give the participants something to do/think about/focus on; when the conversation might drag, or otherwise be awkward. Do note that going to MeetUps with, ahem, possibly an unusually high population of introverts might NOT be a great idea. In other words, don't expect to practice your social skills so much at, say, a 'New Features in TypeScript' meetup; but one devoted to, say, fresh-water canoeing might be better (yes that's nearly stereotyping, but roll with it, please...).
Lastly, a great way to socialize, in a low-stress environment, is contra-dancing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra_dance). If you're not familiar, it's a dance form that is VERY approachable for the most un-coordinated among us. And live music, with just a nominal cover charge, typically. BTW, they usually have a mini-class at the beginning of each dance. But there are only about a dozen moves, and most of them are pretty basic (especially if you've done any square dancing or ballroom dancing before--but contra dancing is easier to learn). Typically there's a mid-dance break, which is a great time to practice socializing. Also, people usually change partners after each individual dance, so you get to meet lots of folks. (But don't expect to take anyone home that night--it's the _opposite_ of a 'meat market'; and you will not be welcomed back if you're too aggresive...) There are dances in pretty much every state in the USA, and some outside the USA; though there are the most in the North East USA. Caveat: most dances were shut down completely due to COVID-19 and are just starting up again.
I also concur with the advice that dealing with social interactions is like muscle training: you need to do it repeatedly, and semi-regularly. And also, yes, it may be a little painful at first; and may feel very artificial--that's OK. A good place to practice: in a grocery store line, with whomever is behind you; and possibly with the checker, if they don't look stressed already.
I didn't see MeetUps mentioned already, but I've found them great. That's because they give the participants something to do/think about/focus on; when the conversation might drag, or otherwise be awkward. Do note that going to MeetUps with, ahem, possibly an unusually high population of introverts might NOT be a great idea. In other words, don't expect to practice your social skills so much at, say, a 'New Features in TypeScript' meetup; but one devoted to, say, fresh-water canoeing might be better (yes that's nearly stereotyping, but roll with it, please...).
Lastly, a great way to socialize, in a low-stress environment, is contra-dancing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contra_dance). If you're not familiar, it's a dance form that is VERY approachable for the most un-coordinated among us. And live music, with just a nominal cover charge, typically. BTW, they usually have a mini-class at the beginning of each dance. But there are only about a dozen moves, and most of them are pretty basic (especially if you've done any square dancing or ballroom dancing before--but contra dancing is easier to learn). Typically there's a mid-dance break, which is a great time to practice socializing. Also, people usually change partners after each individual dance, so you get to meet lots of folks. (But don't expect to take anyone home that night--it's the _opposite_ of a 'meat market'; and you will not be welcomed back if you're too aggresive...) There are dances in pretty much every state in the USA, and some outside the USA; though there are the most in the North East USA. Caveat: most dances were shut down completely due to COVID-19 and are just starting up again.
One day I just woke up and realized I've been living this way for a very long time and that it didn't bring me any benefit. I was so sick and tired of that anxiety that I eventually became angry at it. This anger turned into curiosity: what actually happens if I do that thing I dreaded doing so much? Then it became exciting and I stopped giving a damn because the excitement was much more interesting than thr anxiety I had so far.
Yes, hit the gym. I took it a step further. Not only did I hit the gym, I became a fitness instructor - step, cardio kickboxing, spin and water aerobics. I was your typical fat short kid with a computer growing up and I have mild cerebral palsy and no natural rhythm.
My awkwardness improved a lot then and I made a lot of friends. I also went out of my way to try stuff and not be embarrassed about sucking.
Finally, I got out of my own head and realized that the Spotlight Effect is real.
My awkwardness improved a lot then and I made a lot of friends. I also went out of my way to try stuff and not be embarrassed about sucking.
Finally, I got out of my own head and realized that the Spotlight Effect is real.
> It's common to advise hitting on the gym, which I just started doing last week. Funnily, the gym is the place where I last noticed my awkward behavior :)
If you are able to, consider a home gym to first get comfortable with what you are doing or hire a personal trainer at a public gym.
This person gives positive gym talk - https://www.tiktok.com/@thejoeyswoll?lang=en
If you are able to, consider a home gym to first get comfortable with what you are doing or hire a personal trainer at a public gym.
This person gives positive gym talk - https://www.tiktok.com/@thejoeyswoll?lang=en
Honestly...weekends rolling on ecstacy in the early 2000's party scene. Every time i took MDMA made me feel and act much like a non-shy person, and, with habitual use, was an excellent teacher of lessons I could carry into everyday life.
It also made my stutter almost disappear. I don't know of any academic research of MDMA and treatment of stutterint, but there are other anecdotes such as a mention of thid in Alexandre Shulgin's PIHKAL.
It also made my stutter almost disappear. I don't know of any academic research of MDMA and treatment of stutterint, but there are other anecdotes such as a mention of thid in Alexandre Shulgin's PIHKAL.
One thing that helps me is this: whenever I'm in a situation that makes me nervous, I think about even more stressful situations in the past that I went through unscathed. For example, if I get nervous before speaking to a group of 10 people, I would recall events where I managed to present to a larger group of people. I was nervous then, but I "survived" it, no reason to think I wouldn't survive this one either.
It is like this. And I correlate it to tooth pain when biting into sweet candy with a cavity. It hurts like hell but by the time you notice, it’s gone and you’ve survived. Rejection is very painful but it’s important to remember to have a successful life that rejection is a fleeting moment and it can eventually become a passive experience that you can choose to notice and learn from or not and importantly move on from. This should give you the confidence to be “yourself” in any situation. (As you can tell I’ve been to a few classes)
People with real, not imposter autism cannot change themselves quickly. The way out is to understand and accept what you are first, and to realize that social is not your speciality (and it doesn't worth it anyway).
Keeping a safe distance from idiots is more beneficial than ability to be "nice person".
Be very good at something which others need and all the problems will go away. They will be nice to you, and this is the real and only way.
Keeping a safe distance from idiots is more beneficial than ability to be "nice person".
Be very good at something which others need and all the problems will go away. They will be nice to you, and this is the real and only way.
It will never go away, but do get a lot better once you get over it. For me, start working, having kid changed my personality a lot. I feel that it is something you have to force yourself to be uncomfortable, and slowly you will get over it. Having kid basically forced me to be in situations I don't like because I have to stand in front of him, protect him. Once you force yourself crossing the line, it is easy.
For starters, anywhere where there's a shared activity that requires interaction. Nothing that allows you to be a wallflower. The shared activity makes it easier to not be pure social.
After that, joining volunteer leadership or purely social organizations. Think a volunteer-staffed group in your area or Toastmasters.
I did it for 10 years, at least twice monthly, and the practice drastically improved my ability and comfort interacting with people.
After that, joining volunteer leadership or purely social organizations. Think a volunteer-staffed group in your area or Toastmasters.
I did it for 10 years, at least twice monthly, and the practice drastically improved my ability and comfort interacting with people.
Just basic personal, intellectual, spiritual, career, biological, financial, social growth will do the thing for you.
As it did for me in similar situation and many of my friends who didn’t stuck with some guru shmucks trying to sell them instant macho bullshit.
Unless it’s a medical diagnosis there’s nothing specific to do about except just fully and responsibly live your life.
I emphasize this again - DONT “PRACTICE”. There is nothing to practice.
As it did for me in similar situation and many of my friends who didn’t stuck with some guru shmucks trying to sell them instant macho bullshit.
Unless it’s a medical diagnosis there’s nothing specific to do about except just fully and responsibly live your life.
I emphasize this again - DONT “PRACTICE”. There is nothing to practice.
I used to be almost bipolar regarding this, one situation would have me almost cold confident, another I'd be shaking unable to speak.
My stupid answer: experience, by living things with people most fears will evaporate because most of them are really irrational reflexes. The smoother you become emotionally, the easier it gets to deflect the awkwardness when it's back, or simply laugh it off.
My stupid answer: experience, by living things with people most fears will evaporate because most of them are really irrational reflexes. The smoother you become emotionally, the easier it gets to deflect the awkwardness when it's back, or simply laugh it off.
checkout https://www.youtube.com/socialanimal - there is a whole series of random people (over 50 subscribers in 10 cities) being on video and talking to strangers for a day, I am sure it will inspire you and give you perspective :)
also from the same channel:
1/ About the importance of realizing that talking to people is first and foremost a side effect of expressing yourself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lKRM76uFeI
2/ About the importance of having a healthy relationship with your desire https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZAgGiDf2lo
3/About what people miss about confidence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9msqcQedsQ
4/About the essence of interacting and conversation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD7arE3Zcyw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3NZp2Umh5E
5/About what we really have in common with people and why talking to strangers can be hard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3HKzBJRROI
6/Why people fear rejection https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IHZELlrxiA
also from the same channel:
1/ About the importance of realizing that talking to people is first and foremost a side effect of expressing yourself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lKRM76uFeI
2/ About the importance of having a healthy relationship with your desire https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZAgGiDf2lo
3/About what people miss about confidence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9msqcQedsQ
4/About the essence of interacting and conversation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD7arE3Zcyw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3NZp2Umh5E
5/About what we really have in common with people and why talking to strangers can be hard https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3HKzBJRROI
6/Why people fear rejection https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IHZELlrxiA
I realised social approval doesn't matter, and then everything was fine. Obviously I still try to do my best, but now that I'm doing it for me and not for getting approval or impressing people, suddenly it isn't about confidence anymore. The self-failure of not trying is worse than getting negative feedback, so hiding in my shell isn't an option anymore.
These have helped reduce my social anxiety (I used to have a lot, now I have almost none) :
1. Exposure, simply spend more time in public and around other people, the only way to develop comfort and social skills is time and practice.
2. Get good at making small talk, there are plenty of resources for this online but it's really quite simple, a good rule of thumb is to start with asking people inoffensive questions and giving them occasional small compliments. The goal is not to have meaningful conversations (yet) it's just to establish mutual comfort ("ok, this person doesn't seem like a serial killer").
3. Mindset, if you're worried about your voice and posture you're making the common mistake of believing that other people give a fuck, when really they don't. Most of them are never going to notice stuff like this about you or if they do they'll forget it the next day. Heck, they'll probably forget their entire interaction with you, no matter how it goes. You're just not that important unless you're famous or something. Their world is centered around them, not you, so don't overthink things.
Once you get the hang of everything above (spend more time with people, get good at inoffensive small talk, don't overthink) then you'll find you can leave a decent impression on just about anyone. From there you naturally start to notice that you have more in common with some people than others and if you keep in touch with those people it becomes easy to build deeper friendships.
1. Exposure, simply spend more time in public and around other people, the only way to develop comfort and social skills is time and practice.
2. Get good at making small talk, there are plenty of resources for this online but it's really quite simple, a good rule of thumb is to start with asking people inoffensive questions and giving them occasional small compliments. The goal is not to have meaningful conversations (yet) it's just to establish mutual comfort ("ok, this person doesn't seem like a serial killer").
3. Mindset, if you're worried about your voice and posture you're making the common mistake of believing that other people give a fuck, when really they don't. Most of them are never going to notice stuff like this about you or if they do they'll forget it the next day. Heck, they'll probably forget their entire interaction with you, no matter how it goes. You're just not that important unless you're famous or something. Their world is centered around them, not you, so don't overthink things.
Once you get the hang of everything above (spend more time with people, get good at inoffensive small talk, don't overthink) then you'll find you can leave a decent impression on just about anyone. From there you naturally start to notice that you have more in common with some people than others and if you keep in touch with those people it becomes easy to build deeper friendships.
I did many things, but the best two were to make an effort to try more and to take an acting class. Psychology is the study of interacting with people - in theatre, you actually practice interacting.
The class’s games were fun. People were accepting. Everyone was learning.
I eventually joined a theatre troupe, which was a ton of fun and where I met some life-long friends.
The class’s games were fun. People were accepting. Everyone was learning.
I eventually joined a theatre troupe, which was a ton of fun and where I met some life-long friends.
Awkward shyness is just a byproduct of empathy. You care about the people around you, even when you don't know them. It'll get better once you learn not to be ashamed of it. Alternatively you could become an asshole. They don't care about anyone, and they're full of confidence. I don't trust confident people.
Practice. Find a course, a group, something where interacting with people is normal and you have a shared conversation topic (homework, practice, worst case the news, the weather, the weekend). Maybe a language class?
It's OK to prepare statements in your head so you don't have to blush or worst-case come up with something inappropriate.
It's OK to prepare statements in your head so you don't have to blush or worst-case come up with something inappropriate.
Practice! I forced myself into so many social situations, over and over again. I went to speed date nights on my own. I went to bars to try to talk to strangers.
It was so painful at first. I embarrassed myself. I was foolish and awkward. But I got better. The terrifying became the comfortable, and the mundane.
The journey continues! All things come with practice.
It was so painful at first. I embarrassed myself. I was foolish and awkward. But I got better. The terrifying became the comfortable, and the mundane.
The journey continues! All things come with practice.
I'm still very introverted (even if that word is cliché). I get anxiety in social situations.
I have some experience with acting, so in certain scenarios, I'm able to act as a more confident character and get through the initial awkward phases.
I still can't just make myself go to involved social events because they overwhelm me. I pick my battles
I have some experience with acting, so in certain scenarios, I'm able to act as a more confident character and get through the initial awkward phases.
I still can't just make myself go to involved social events because they overwhelm me. I pick my battles
I learned Haskell. Everyone around me loves hearing how awesome monads are, and soon enough, I became a beast at parties.
This is going to sound dumb but I had a Subaru and there was a local Subaru forum that met up for autocross, install days, dinners, etc. I was a bit intimidated to “just show up” but I ended up going and met tons of cool new people. So I would say find a local group that has some common interests and jump in with both feet.
I started streaming my programming sessions live on Twitch, with desktop capture, camera and voice. It was super awkward early on, but after doing this for 3 years almost every day, I am more relaxed with 100 viewers than with 3 in the beginning. You just get used to anything that is uncomfortable if you keep doing it.
I improved a little… but I can only do it in bursts… a couple of hours and then I have to escape and recover my energy.
I used to be shy, and then later I stopped caring at all. I can look like a hobo outside on my bike.
Social awkwardness is like vertigo, it's somewhat normal (in our society) to have it, but it's best to ignore it as it's counter productive to pay attention to it rather than focusing & enjoying the moment
Social awkwardness is like vertigo, it's somewhat normal (in our society) to have it, but it's best to ignore it as it's counter productive to pay attention to it rather than focusing & enjoying the moment
I stopped paying attention to the delusions I had about what people thought of my person, my face, my clothes etc.
A lot of good advice in the comments here. I'd add: when you're talking to someone, or even in front of an audience, eliciting some reaction or response from the other side is a good way to "normalize" the dialogue. It instantly puts you at the same level as the other party.
One day I realized that the more smartphone usage and social media become mainstream and the main way people communicate nowadays, the more socially awkward and ADD the average person becomes.
As a very awkward and ADD-ish person my whole life, I realized this gave me a huge advantage: people become more awkward while I stay about the same, and they don't even realize it's happening while I do.
I quit social media a long time ago because of its effect on my ADD and as a result I've put a lot of effort into meatspace (real life) social interactions and have gotten better at them, while most people get worse because they are glued to their phones all the time and most of their "socializing" is only that.
It drives me nuts when I'm hanging with friends and they can't go a few minutes without being on their phone, while I am making an effort to be present and not touch my phone at all.
Many neurotypical, non-awkward people I've met have their self-image constructed around a bunch of fragile assumptions, whereas awkward people are more resilient because of the challenges they've gone through.
As a very awkward and ADD-ish person my whole life, I realized this gave me a huge advantage: people become more awkward while I stay about the same, and they don't even realize it's happening while I do.
I quit social media a long time ago because of its effect on my ADD and as a result I've put a lot of effort into meatspace (real life) social interactions and have gotten better at them, while most people get worse because they are glued to their phones all the time and most of their "socializing" is only that.
It drives me nuts when I'm hanging with friends and they can't go a few minutes without being on their phone, while I am making an effort to be present and not touch my phone at all.
Many neurotypical, non-awkward people I've met have their self-image constructed around a bunch of fragile assumptions, whereas awkward people are more resilient because of the challenges they've gone through.
No offense but you seem to have a superiority complex around all this.
I'm not better than anyone, and in fact self-esteem issues are something I've had to deal with a lot in my life. As I've noticed people changing in this way I've actually become more empathetic since the more awkward I see people become the more I can relate.
I'm just speaking from personal experience about how my life improved, especially social relationships, when being mindful about all this. Other people make their own choices. But the way you use the internet definitely changes your brain and the way you approach social relationships.
Having strangers on the internet assume the worst in you when you're trying to talk about personal growth is an excellent way to feel inferior.
I'm just speaking from personal experience about how my life improved, especially social relationships, when being mindful about all this. Other people make their own choices. But the way you use the internet definitely changes your brain and the way you approach social relationships.
Having strangers on the internet assume the worst in you when you're trying to talk about personal growth is an excellent way to feel inferior.
Never eat lunch alone. Share meals with coworkers, friends and if you don't have that, whoever you can.
Took acid and went to raves did wonders for this. Still introverted and whatnot but a lot less of a recluse.
I find it easier to talk to people when I have shared interests so I started watching my local NFL team so I could talk about the game. I also start Jiu Jitsu and motorcycling.
All those things give me something to talk about with other people. When they show interest it makes it a lot easier to open up.
All those things give me something to talk about with other people. When they show interest it makes it a lot easier to open up.
Honestly, getting my first job at a movie theater. Kind of just got flung out there and had to deal with it. It helped because everyone I worked with was relatively outgoing. To this day I still have a lot of personality quirks from coworkers that rubbed off on me while I was there.
Nothing like customer service to get you used to talking to people.
In high school, my first job was daycare at the Y. Talking to/playing with a bunch of little kids is being social on easy mode. Then in college I worked a couple years as a waiter and that really helped me learn how to talk to strangers.
In high school, my first job was daycare at the Y. Talking to/playing with a bunch of little kids is being social on easy mode. Then in college I worked a couple years as a waiter and that really helped me learn how to talk to strangers.
Maybe not helpful to OP but at some point I mostly stopped caring. COVID social distancing really drove home that it was societal expectations stressing me out, not some personal failing. I just don't put myself in these situations any more and find myself feeling a lot better.
Find a NGO that is collecting signatures. Join up. Push yourself to collect as many signatures as possible. Emulate others. No one will remember you so do all the things they tell you to do but you find super emberasing. Keep doing it until you don't care what people think.
Works every time.
Works every time.
1) get older
If you want to accelerate the process and not wait…
2) make it a point to interact socially every day with new people who share your interests
3) force yourself to do public speaking
4) spend less time with people who point out that you are socially awkward- avoid them. They aren’t helping your confidence and are holding you back.
If you want to accelerate the process and not wait…
2) make it a point to interact socially every day with new people who share your interests
3) force yourself to do public speaking
4) spend less time with people who point out that you are socially awkward- avoid them. They aren’t helping your confidence and are holding you back.
Just to add to that, more ways to boost your confidence:
5) Militantly maintain a healthy diet - i.e. NO alcohol or sugar (ever), no processed foods (ever), watch carbs and focus on protein/fat, NO industrial seed oils.
6) Fast intermittently. This means limit your eating to an 8 hour window every day. Your body should be forced to burn fat daily at the end of the 16 hour window where you don't eat. Eat a late lunch and early dinner only.
7) Lift heavy weights every other day - make sure you consume enough protein to repair your muscles (whey protein isolate is great just before and after you lift weights)
8) No "diet" drinks EVER. Drink water. Filter out the fluoride - you do not want this crap in your body, it's a neurotoxin. Take turmeric extract daily, along with vitamin D 5000 IU and 1mg of Vitamin C.
9) Get some hydroxyapatite powder sourced from cow bones (not the nano stuff, it's dangerous) and use that to remineralize your teeth instead of fluoride. Consider switching to a non-fluoride toothpaste, or be extra careful to rinse all of the fluoridated toothpaste out of your mouth if you choose to continue using fluoridated toothpaste. Fluoride is a neurotoxin, and your social anxiety could be related to this or other toxins we're encouraged to consume daily.
5) Militantly maintain a healthy diet - i.e. NO alcohol or sugar (ever), no processed foods (ever), watch carbs and focus on protein/fat, NO industrial seed oils.
6) Fast intermittently. This means limit your eating to an 8 hour window every day. Your body should be forced to burn fat daily at the end of the 16 hour window where you don't eat. Eat a late lunch and early dinner only.
7) Lift heavy weights every other day - make sure you consume enough protein to repair your muscles (whey protein isolate is great just before and after you lift weights)
8) No "diet" drinks EVER. Drink water. Filter out the fluoride - you do not want this crap in your body, it's a neurotoxin. Take turmeric extract daily, along with vitamin D 5000 IU and 1mg of Vitamin C.
9) Get some hydroxyapatite powder sourced from cow bones (not the nano stuff, it's dangerous) and use that to remineralize your teeth instead of fluoride. Consider switching to a non-fluoride toothpaste, or be extra careful to rinse all of the fluoridated toothpaste out of your mouth if you choose to continue using fluoridated toothpaste. Fluoride is a neurotoxin, and your social anxiety could be related to this or other toxins we're encouraged to consume daily.
Got a bunch of jobs that forced me to interact a lot with other people. Waiting tables, sales, customer support, that sort of thing. I'm still reserved and quiet, but I feel 100% comfortable around people now, where I used to be quite nervous/anxious and shy.
Got older, accumulated enough embarrassing and humiliating moments and just got tired of caring. :-)
Did you reach a point of peak non-awkwardness? At what age?
I think this might happen to some people. When they're young they haven't yet learnt how to interact with other people. Perhaps at age 30 or 40 they've learnt enough to do a reasonable impression of being a normal person, at least for the duration of a brief interaction. But when they're 50 or 60 they can't be bothered to make the effort any more.
I think this might happen to some people. When they're young they haven't yet learnt how to interact with other people. Perhaps at age 30 or 40 they've learnt enough to do a reasonable impression of being a normal person, at least for the duration of a brief interaction. But when they're 50 or 60 they can't be bothered to make the effort any more.
Give yourself low stakes opportunities to practice meeting and interacting with strangers.
For instance, go to your local community college and take a public speaking class.
Attend a fan convention for something you are interested in and practice introducing yourself to strangers with common interests.
For instance, go to your local community college and take a public speaking class.
Attend a fan convention for something you are interested in and practice introducing yourself to strangers with common interests.
All you need is to read "How to win friends and influence people" book and then go and practice the techniques. Start with introducing yourself to people and just asking questions about them as everyone loves talking about themselves. That is all, really.
Realized I was better than most people at a few important things, and that everyone is ultimately BSing their way through life whether they know it or not. So I'll be me and see where that gets me. Took until my mid-20s to achieve a real level of confidence.
What helped me was agreeing to the fact that most interactions are going to be awkward (to some extent). Real conversations are not like movie dialogues, so acknowledging my anxiety and that awkwardness is normal made it much easier to approach people for me.
Read “How to Win Friends and Influence People”. It’s an old, old book (1930s with an update in the 80s). So the examples are sometimes dated, but get over that and understand the core principles being taught.
It’s the teacher you need.
Don’t judge the book by its title. It’s not a good one.
It’s the teacher you need.
Don’t judge the book by its title. It’s not a good one.
I thought the recent Tom Hanks movie "a beautiful day in the neighborhood" was an excellent study in small talk that was actually big talk and active listening. Here in the UK we know nothing about Mr Rodgers but I really enjoyed it.
Marijuana. I stopped drinking and started using edibles, tinctures, and now a vaporizer. My social awkwardness came from social anxiety. The marijuana, more than any of the dozens of prescriptions I had, helped me overcome and deal with my anxiety.
I bought a bar and bartended there. Which is basically just forced practice.
Remember Carol Dweck. People aren't just naturally good at things like this, they practice it a lot (maybe inadvertantly).
You can make huge strides with focused, purposeful practice
Remember Carol Dweck. People aren't just naturally good at things like this, they practice it a lot (maybe inadvertantly).
You can make huge strides with focused, purposeful practice
For the first 20 years of my life I was extremely introvert, while at the same time very curious.
This curiosity later in life led me to become basically the opposite of how I was back then. Today I run several successful ompanies with dozens of employees,
This curiosity later in life led me to become basically the opposite of how I was back then. Today I run several successful ompanies with dozens of employees,
This is one of the rare situations where "fake it until you make it" applies.
Testosterone injections have really helped me. You can try increasing your T naturally
Exercise helps more than anything I’ve ever found - I don’t mean small amounts I mean exercising till you’re sweating your bits off. Post-exercise you feel ready to CRUSH if you know what I mean :) I feel your pain my friend.
No, it's not your fault.
Socially awkward is just a natural defense system to tell you people around you are really bad.
If you move to a better environment where people don't think too much about you, then you're not socially awkward anymore.
Socially awkward is just a natural defense system to tell you people around you are really bad.
If you move to a better environment where people don't think too much about you, then you're not socially awkward anymore.
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I learned Haskell. This opened the doors to all sorts of social opportunities. See https://www.haskell.org/community/
Yogi meditation. Best learned at a traditional yoga center and not a gym/YouTube.
The most impressive sight was a young teenager there. Both parents were practitioners. The kid was calm, mature and volunteered frequently.
The most impressive sight was a young teenager there. Both parents were practitioners. The kid was calm, mature and volunteered frequently.
There are very few psychiatrists here on HN, but tons of armchair psychiatrists. If you feel like you need help with socialization, I strongly recommend getting in touch with one. It’s not as uncommon as it seems.
Try a mental trick I often use: everyone else is self conscious about how they appear and what other people think of them. Once that sinks in don't be afraid to be yourself even if that means being awkward.
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Well, I didn't really get less awkward and nervous but I stopped feeling bad about it, since I'm human. Also, I'm more intentional about what I want to do and not what I'm supposed to do.
Wow, blushing. I had entirely forgotten I used to do that in many situations. It's hideously embarrassing because it's so obvious to others. FWIW the good news is it goes away, or did for me.
> context is familiar
The more you grow and experience new situations, the more familiar the world will be. You'll just have to accept that being awkward is gonna be part of the journey... until it's not.
The more you grow and experience new situations, the more familiar the world will be. You'll just have to accept that being awkward is gonna be part of the journey... until it's not.
Supplements that calm the nervous system, extinguish fears and increase serotonin.
* mg glycinate * mg l-threonate * mg chloride * b8 inositol * black seed oil * ashwagandha
Taken daily. It’s a lot, but incrementally, it all helps.
* mg glycinate * mg l-threonate * mg chloride * b8 inositol * black seed oil * ashwagandha
Taken daily. It’s a lot, but incrementally, it all helps.
Getting married and worked a few years as a salesman remove a lot of social shyness. I still don't like public speaking, small talks and such but I can drop a few lines if I have to.
Honestly, you're going to hate this answer by like anything it gets better with practice. Get yourself out there. There's no drug or storehouse cure or anything other then doing it.
I moved from Silicon Valley to nyc met a couple other nerdy friends talked to girls every weekend with them at the bars. I cold approached them. The first were very hard but I got used to it.
Travelling helped me a lot. You’re kind of forced into social situations especially if you stay in hostels. I’m not talking about a 1 week vacation though. I’d recommend a multi-month trip.
Just listen to people man. That's all it takes. Ask them about themselves, their work, their interests and just stfu and listen. And once you find common ground take it from there.
Get your testosterone levels checked. A lot of men are not producing the same amount as their parents and grandparents. Low testosterone can lead to feelings of Inadequacy and lethargy
Play in a band! Not only do you have to maintain relationships, and thus conversations with 4 other people, but playing shows gives you a reason to leave the house and meet new people!
Dating a LOT. You get used to rejection. Putting yourself out there.
Remembering “none of these cares about you enough to laugh at you”.
Being a coding camp mentor and having cold-call meetings with hundreds and hundreds of junior devs really helped turn these kinds of situations into something quite casual
I no longer care what others think.
beyond polite standards that is. I also try to treat people how i would like to be treated... everything else is just a fad. I don't do fads.
beyond polite standards that is. I also try to treat people how i would like to be treated... everything else is just a fad. I don't do fads.
Zoloft is what helped me.
Be careful tho, your whole network like friends or family either like you or used to you to be reserved and shy, you change in behavior can change things.
Be careful tho, your whole network like friends or family either like you or used to you to be reserved and shy, you change in behavior can change things.
I realized I only enjoyed socializing if we were bonding about common interests so I just got interested in a lot of things and suddenly I am a very social person.
Go to a new place where you don't plan on going again.
Propranolol and alcohol solved this for me, only drawback is you need to know 30 minutes beforehand. Benzos would also solve it but they are too addictive.
Sertraline (prescribed by psychiatrist) + Stoicism (Stoicism and the Art of Happiness by Donald Robertson is a good intro, if you're interested)
For me, it was an MBA, which taught me some fundamental psychology, self-reflection, other aspects that are part of the personal leadership journey.
1. I’d bet money that your voice change is not noticeable from the outside, and it’s something you are feeling internally, but other people really can’t even notice. Also, If you’re meeting someone for the first time they have no idea what your voice sounds like! The reason I’m saying this is because I’m
Guessing you’re putting extreme pressure on yourself and creating a positive feedback loop for something that no one else can notice!
2. What helped me was realizing no one can notice the subtle changes in my mood shifts and my anxiety, literally no one, even if they could, so what?
3. One of the biggest things to help me was realizing that no one actually cares what I’m saying or how I come across, it may sound quite negative but it’s actually quite liberating when it comes to social anxiety, no one notices and no one is reflecting to themselves “was __ awkward in that brief conversation back there?”. “ Did __ seem nervous?”.
My actual suggestestions are basically the same as everyone else’s:
- practice, if one particular situation causes you a disproportionate amount of anxiety, put yourself in it as often as you can. For me it was public speaking, but after a decade of speaking in front of groups of people regularly it’s literally a no op now,
- gym, I have no idea what it is but walking around with a sore body boosts my confidence, not a big body, not lots of muscles; just a sore relatively fit body, if you do HIIT you’ll literally practice high physical stress scenario regularly (fast heart rate) and your body will be better equipped to handle operating under those circumstances, ie you’ll be more regulated and it will be easier to maintain a clear head under a “flight” response .
- realizing that ultimately everyone is pretty preoccupied with their lives, most of the times when I speak most people aren’t even listening :p or they forget about it a minute after I talk, when I finally realized this it really helped me.
- listen more than you speak, ask open ended questions, take a general interest in the people you’re speaking with, if you show interest because you’re authentically interested in speaking to people and listening to people, they will open up, even in just regular normal everyday conversation, if you’re too nervous speaking right now, how about listening???
2. What helped me was realizing no one can notice the subtle changes in my mood shifts and my anxiety, literally no one, even if they could, so what?
3. One of the biggest things to help me was realizing that no one actually cares what I’m saying or how I come across, it may sound quite negative but it’s actually quite liberating when it comes to social anxiety, no one notices and no one is reflecting to themselves “was __ awkward in that brief conversation back there?”. “ Did __ seem nervous?”.
My actual suggestestions are basically the same as everyone else’s:
- practice, if one particular situation causes you a disproportionate amount of anxiety, put yourself in it as often as you can. For me it was public speaking, but after a decade of speaking in front of groups of people regularly it’s literally a no op now,
- gym, I have no idea what it is but walking around with a sore body boosts my confidence, not a big body, not lots of muscles; just a sore relatively fit body, if you do HIIT you’ll literally practice high physical stress scenario regularly (fast heart rate) and your body will be better equipped to handle operating under those circumstances, ie you’ll be more regulated and it will be easier to maintain a clear head under a “flight” response .
- realizing that ultimately everyone is pretty preoccupied with their lives, most of the times when I speak most people aren’t even listening :p or they forget about it a minute after I talk, when I finally realized this it really helped me.
- listen more than you speak, ask open ended questions, take a general interest in the people you’re speaking with, if you show interest because you’re authentically interested in speaking to people and listening to people, they will open up, even in just regular normal everyday conversation, if you’re too nervous speaking right now, how about listening???
> 3. One of the biggest things to help me was realizing that no one actually cares what I’m saying or how I come across...
Reminds me of a saying: In your 20s you worry what people are thinking about you. In your 30s you don't care what people think. In your 40s you realize that no one is (or was) thinking about you.
Reminds me of a saying: In your 20s you worry what people are thinking about you. In your 30s you don't care what people think. In your 40s you realize that no one is (or was) thinking about you.
Take social dancing lessons like Salsa, Bachata, Kizomba. These are very fun!
But have a proper personal hygiene, some figures are very close.
Brute forcing it, and being genuine. The latter helped me make friends who, recognized the deficiencies, and aided with the former over time.
Be bold and your awkwardness turns into the greatest office jokes. Begin bold makes your anxiety appear as natural and humorous.
Life experiences...feeling embarrassed, actually saying stupid things and realizing why it was an awkward thing to say later...etc
I went to prison. Living around savages. Having to shit and shower basically without privacy will remove any shyness or modesty
I wouldn't ask HN, most people here are into quantified self and other strange things, normal people don't do that.
"Normal people" often don't know they are using strategies, maybe, but it's a mistake to assume that they don't.
There are all sorts of strategies, big and small, being consciously or subconsciously deployed by "normal" people.
There are all sorts of strategies, big and small, being consciously or subconsciously deployed by "normal" people.
Theater classes, as a teenager. About 3/5 of the people were shy people; only 2/5 were looking to get into acting.
This is so great. 10 years ago this sort of topic came up frequently here, but there have been fewer as the crowd has grown.
1. Learn to dance! 2. Be proud of your accomplishments, specially the small ones, build your confidence one step at a time
Pushing yourself into new social situations you could potentially be uncomfortable with. Truama from other people.
Forced myself to look people in the eye when talking to them. Horrifying at first but now slightly less miserable.
Stop giving a shit what people think of you, do what you want outside and behave however you want to in public.
That’s a really ignorant take from ops post. That’s equivalent to saying stop being depressed to someone with depression. Sadly I don’t think it’s that simple.
I don't think it's ignorant at all. It's the advice everyone is going to give distilled down to it's essence.
Does it also apply to those with substance abuse problems? “Stop being an addiction.” It’s simple.
But I didn't say that, you said that and attributed it to me.
You disregarded the ignorance in ops comment which implies agreement.
> what is your success story?
I became a teacher. More generally, having a job that interfaces you with people will help.
I became a teacher. More generally, having a job that interfaces you with people will help.
I used to be really anxious and nervous until sophomore year of high school, when I had to take a marketing elective aimed towards juniors. We had to present our products via PowerPoint each week in a group. My first two presentations were terrible, so I racked up enough courage to ask my teacher on whether I could present alone next week, which he allowed.
Every week or so, I'd ask him to present my products as a single-person group in front of the class and every week I got pretty good feedback which led to getting better grades. That increased my confidence, and also became the pipeline towards learning how to reduce the amount of (pardon my language) fucks I gave about unnecessary things. (Also, trying to convince your classmates and teacher to buy a fake product every week or two works wonders for your anxiety.)
I did know how to be a team player and collaborate with other people, but the group I was usually assigned to sucked and I refused to let them affect my grade average.
I also started going to the gym that year, did nothing too serious though. I'd go after school and would either use the treadmill or pretend that I knew how to lift weights, haha. It made me feel better, and I was diagnosed with ADHD later on, so the exercise bit checks out even more.
Tl;dr: find something that you feel strongly enough for, and use that to take-off into the anxiety to less anxiety pipeline. Also, exercise. It doesn't have to be working out intensely, but even a walk around the neighborhood can make you feel better.
Every week or so, I'd ask him to present my products as a single-person group in front of the class and every week I got pretty good feedback which led to getting better grades. That increased my confidence, and also became the pipeline towards learning how to reduce the amount of (pardon my language) fucks I gave about unnecessary things. (Also, trying to convince your classmates and teacher to buy a fake product every week or two works wonders for your anxiety.)
I did know how to be a team player and collaborate with other people, but the group I was usually assigned to sucked and I refused to let them affect my grade average.
I also started going to the gym that year, did nothing too serious though. I'd go after school and would either use the treadmill or pretend that I knew how to lift weights, haha. It made me feel better, and I was diagnosed with ADHD later on, so the exercise bit checks out even more.
Tl;dr: find something that you feel strongly enough for, and use that to take-off into the anxiety to less anxiety pipeline. Also, exercise. It doesn't have to be working out intensely, but even a walk around the neighborhood can make you feel better.
Simple, force yourself into the situations. If you’re scared of something, take it as a challenge.
See what you can get out of them. View meeting new people as a potential opportunity for arbitrage.
Try lifting heavy weights. A starter program like strong lifts or starting strength is a good start
[deleted]
Speaking from personal experience:
I felt very socially awkward in late primary school and high school. I was really afraid of being a stereotypical "nerd", which I clearly was (glasses, braces, good at class). I went to an all boys private school, and whilst I recognise the privelege of going there, I never fit in and felt like a loser. For a long time I kept trying to not appear like a nerd, but I failed and was often paralysed in social situations by the thought of not knowing the right thing to say. Needless to say, I had pretty poor self-esteem.
Eventually I got to a point where I gave up. I can't remember when exactly, maybe when I was 15/16, but I accepted the fact that I was a nerd loser and that I wouldn't have any friends or girlfriends and would probably live with my parents until they died. At the time I felt like I resigned myself to a life of unhappiness, but I was so sick of trying to not be a loser, since it didn't seem to be working.
But then the next day, going to school, I started chatting with someone who I wasn't quite friends with, and it felt easier. I later realised that by rejecting the idea of living up to other standards, I was free to be who I want and do what I want. I enjoyed maths and computers and games, and the only reason I felt bad for enjoying those things were because of other people's expectations on how I should be, or at least, my perception of other people's expectations. I still didn't like myself, but as I spent more time being my true self and not living up to others' standards, my self-esteem started to grow. I didn't fit in, but I no longer cared.
I found myself wanting to interact more with other people. I still had a lot of social anxiety, which was compounded by experiences of being socially awkward in many previous situations. But now, fostered by a level of self-respect I didn't have before, and a rejection of expectations of how to behave, I learned to trust my instincts and ignore those feelings of anxiety to ultimately connect with people.
Fast forward to today: I'm 32 and am currently changing careers from software development to mental health outreach. I still have some social anxiety, but it is far more manageable than in my high-school days. Sometimes it's worse than others, but it's nowhere near the cage it seemed to be when I was in my early teens. Not that it's the ultimate marker for my success, but I now have plenty of beautiful friends and a steady girlfriend.
I realise that this may not resonate with certain people, perhaps people who are neurodivergent and to whom "trust your instincts" isn't particularly helpful. But this was my experience and I am grateful for it.
I felt very socially awkward in late primary school and high school. I was really afraid of being a stereotypical "nerd", which I clearly was (glasses, braces, good at class). I went to an all boys private school, and whilst I recognise the privelege of going there, I never fit in and felt like a loser. For a long time I kept trying to not appear like a nerd, but I failed and was often paralysed in social situations by the thought of not knowing the right thing to say. Needless to say, I had pretty poor self-esteem.
Eventually I got to a point where I gave up. I can't remember when exactly, maybe when I was 15/16, but I accepted the fact that I was a nerd loser and that I wouldn't have any friends or girlfriends and would probably live with my parents until they died. At the time I felt like I resigned myself to a life of unhappiness, but I was so sick of trying to not be a loser, since it didn't seem to be working.
But then the next day, going to school, I started chatting with someone who I wasn't quite friends with, and it felt easier. I later realised that by rejecting the idea of living up to other standards, I was free to be who I want and do what I want. I enjoyed maths and computers and games, and the only reason I felt bad for enjoying those things were because of other people's expectations on how I should be, or at least, my perception of other people's expectations. I still didn't like myself, but as I spent more time being my true self and not living up to others' standards, my self-esteem started to grow. I didn't fit in, but I no longer cared.
I found myself wanting to interact more with other people. I still had a lot of social anxiety, which was compounded by experiences of being socially awkward in many previous situations. But now, fostered by a level of self-respect I didn't have before, and a rejection of expectations of how to behave, I learned to trust my instincts and ignore those feelings of anxiety to ultimately connect with people.
Fast forward to today: I'm 32 and am currently changing careers from software development to mental health outreach. I still have some social anxiety, but it is far more manageable than in my high-school days. Sometimes it's worse than others, but it's nowhere near the cage it seemed to be when I was in my early teens. Not that it's the ultimate marker for my success, but I now have plenty of beautiful friends and a steady girlfriend.
I realise that this may not resonate with certain people, perhaps people who are neurodivergent and to whom "trust your instincts" isn't particularly helpful. But this was my experience and I am grateful for it.
Tl;dr: Recognizing that I prefer 1:1 conversations as opposed to big groups helped me a ton.
First of all, figure out what's "good for you" versus what's a societal expectation that you can skip. For instance, when I was younger, I didn't like going clubbing or taking dates to loud bars with groups of people, because that's...not me. Solution: go for coffee/lunch dates instead. Easy.
For things that are "good for you" but not comfortable, find ways to make them easier based on your known preferences. As an example, I decided that I wanted to go to some networking events. While there, I tried to talk to other people who were there by themselves; it was easier for me to strike up at 1:1 conversation than to try to join a big group. I also found that if I went to networking events alone, not with a friend, it was easier to meet people.
Your preferences may be different, but play to your strengths or the things you already know you can do, and build from there.
First of all, figure out what's "good for you" versus what's a societal expectation that you can skip. For instance, when I was younger, I didn't like going clubbing or taking dates to loud bars with groups of people, because that's...not me. Solution: go for coffee/lunch dates instead. Easy.
For things that are "good for you" but not comfortable, find ways to make them easier based on your known preferences. As an example, I decided that I wanted to go to some networking events. While there, I tried to talk to other people who were there by themselves; it was easier for me to strike up at 1:1 conversation than to try to join a big group. I also found that if I went to networking events alone, not with a friend, it was easier to meet people.
Your preferences may be different, but play to your strengths or the things you already know you can do, and build from there.
Disclaimer: I am not a professional in the field of medicine, psychology, psychiatry or similar. I am just a guy, an older guy, who was socially awkward/shy for decades on end and I have things somewhat under control now.
Being shy, being socially awkward, having low-self esteeem and similar are all manifestations and symptoms of a root cause: Anxiety.
And while one might be able to alleviates the symptoms and manifestations here and there, the one and only cure is to address the root cause: the Anxiety.
And that's easier said than done.
To top it all, I also carried with me, for decades, undiagnosed severe clinical depression. So many times in my life I have reached bottom only to "settle" there fore a while and - later on in life -r each new bottom(s), over and over again, And then over.
Things that I have tried:
- hitting the gym till I was ripped. It helped with the ladies, which then helped overall, but... not really
- meditation: I have meditated thousand of hours, it actually didn't do anything for me
- I have read hundreds of books on depression, anxiety, happiness, confidence, relationships.. you name it, I have read them. The classic, the famous and the not so famous.
- I tried to get married, twice. And twice got divorced. I also tried heterosexual relationships of any type: affairs, FWB, just friends, just hooking up.... Nothing worked (now I say: of course, but that's for another day)
- talk therapy. 18 months of that and got me to a professional diagnosis of being "Depression free'. The anxiety and associated crap was still there.
- I even walked on coals!
What I did not try: meds, drugs (legal or illegal)
What has helped:
- time, yeah, age brings interesting perspective
- reading as much as possible science-based books and articles (and not new age crap. Honorable mentions are "Feeling Good", all the Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy (REBT) books on Amazon, "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck", "12 Rules for Life", "Not Nice: Stop People Pleasing, Staying Silent, & Feeling Guilty... And Start Speaking Up, Saying No, Asking Boldly, And Unapologetically Being Yourself ", "No More Mr Nice Guy" and "The War of Art"
- my therapist helped too. I had a GREAT therapist. Bu she helped up to a point.
- writing helped. Writing almost every day, writing the dark crap that came to mind, anonymous writing on my own blog(s) and on Reddit too.
- REBT (mentioned above) helped me immensely
- I left the best for last: looking at my misadventures in life from the point of view that I am both accountable and WRONG for how I react/respond to life, and how I act in it, and writing about it daily has helped me the most. It has helped me unpack that a lot of my worldviews, presuppositions, what I though was "normal", my cause->effect expectations were, and to some degree still are, utterly wrong. And there's a LOT that I can do to chance things around, to tweak my behavior, to become a better person because, unbeknown to me for decades, my Anxiety had me angry inside and often I was a complete self righteous A-hole
I wrote about being wrong on HN a while back, here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30656873
Every day I realize how wrong I have been in certain aspects of my life, and I struggle to remedy and rectify things.
I look back and I an see the same wrong patterns of behavior in my parents, their parents, my sister, her kids.... And in quite a few people around me.
OP: that is how I improved, from a shy awkward kid I am now living a good life, and still improving. It never ends, keep on searching and improving and trying trying trying. Find a way.
Being shy, being socially awkward, having low-self esteeem and similar are all manifestations and symptoms of a root cause: Anxiety.
And while one might be able to alleviates the symptoms and manifestations here and there, the one and only cure is to address the root cause: the Anxiety.
And that's easier said than done.
To top it all, I also carried with me, for decades, undiagnosed severe clinical depression. So many times in my life I have reached bottom only to "settle" there fore a while and - later on in life -r each new bottom(s), over and over again, And then over.
Things that I have tried:
- hitting the gym till I was ripped. It helped with the ladies, which then helped overall, but... not really
- meditation: I have meditated thousand of hours, it actually didn't do anything for me
- I have read hundreds of books on depression, anxiety, happiness, confidence, relationships.. you name it, I have read them. The classic, the famous and the not so famous.
- I tried to get married, twice. And twice got divorced. I also tried heterosexual relationships of any type: affairs, FWB, just friends, just hooking up.... Nothing worked (now I say: of course, but that's for another day)
- talk therapy. 18 months of that and got me to a professional diagnosis of being "Depression free'. The anxiety and associated crap was still there.
- I even walked on coals!
What I did not try: meds, drugs (legal or illegal)
What has helped:
- time, yeah, age brings interesting perspective
- reading as much as possible science-based books and articles (and not new age crap. Honorable mentions are "Feeling Good", all the Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy (REBT) books on Amazon, "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck", "12 Rules for Life", "Not Nice: Stop People Pleasing, Staying Silent, & Feeling Guilty... And Start Speaking Up, Saying No, Asking Boldly, And Unapologetically Being Yourself ", "No More Mr Nice Guy" and "The War of Art"
- my therapist helped too. I had a GREAT therapist. Bu she helped up to a point.
- writing helped. Writing almost every day, writing the dark crap that came to mind, anonymous writing on my own blog(s) and on Reddit too.
- REBT (mentioned above) helped me immensely
- I left the best for last: looking at my misadventures in life from the point of view that I am both accountable and WRONG for how I react/respond to life, and how I act in it, and writing about it daily has helped me the most. It has helped me unpack that a lot of my worldviews, presuppositions, what I though was "normal", my cause->effect expectations were, and to some degree still are, utterly wrong. And there's a LOT that I can do to chance things around, to tweak my behavior, to become a better person because, unbeknown to me for decades, my Anxiety had me angry inside and often I was a complete self righteous A-hole
I wrote about being wrong on HN a while back, here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30656873
Every day I realize how wrong I have been in certain aspects of my life, and I struggle to remedy and rectify things.
I look back and I an see the same wrong patterns of behavior in my parents, their parents, my sister, her kids.... And in quite a few people around me.
OP: that is how I improved, from a shy awkward kid I am now living a good life, and still improving. It never ends, keep on searching and improving and trying trying trying. Find a way.
All that awkwardness is in your mind. Work through memories one by one.
Another one that gets poached by the extraverts.
May the status wars be kind upon you.
May the status wars be kind upon you.
I took acting classes. They really throw in awkward situations.
Watch an episode of “The Thick of It” before going to work.
Tolerant friends, high quality music, drugs, vipassana
I never did. I’m 30
Realizing ones own mortality, and a lot of spite.
Repeated observation and practice. A lot of it.
Got a ton of tattoos. Can't hide that way!
Check it's not just ADHD in disguise.
I transitioned.
Alcohol and meeting lots of new people
Therapy, many meditation retreats, and knowing myself. My old reactions and feelings can still happen but they are more like phantom limbs
Acting class.
[deleted]
I got on stage and never left.
I want to share some thoughts on this.
Firstly, good work on joining the gym. If you can afford it, get yourself a qualified personal trainer at least once a week. They will correct your technique, introduce you to other people in the gym, and act as a role model for social situations. Additionally, time in the gym with another person (trainer or friend) is positively associated with mental health benefits over time.
> The discomfort gets to the point where I blush
One of my most important learnings in new social situations was to not listen to my body. Blushing and sweating are physiological reactions. At the very worst, if you grind through it, your body will eventually give up and return to normal function after 15 minutes. With repeated exposure, your fight/flight mechanisms will temper down and learn the new normal. Having said that, sometimes I will take a 'smoke break' from social situations to go reduce my body temperature outside.
> My voice changes, my posture changes, everything changes.
My second most important learning is "be like dog". Dogs approach strangers and introduce themselves. They are interested in their new friend and listen to everything they have to say. If they could talk, they would be asking for more details, and complimenting their friend on their great choices. The key point here is that they are not waiting for permission to be themselves, sincerity is the default.
With respect to other commenters re: ecstasy, it is true that you may experience an entirely new mental / social state while under the influence. Making a friend for life in 30 minutes gives you some perspective on "normal speed" social interactions. Just make sure you remember that your mental state is altered: I attended raves for a year before I realised that I didn't like them, but the drug was making it impossible for me to have a bad time. There is also the chance that the drugs are cut with other substances, the risk of frying your brain, the risk of derailing into a junky. You should always have a non-negotiable end date after which you will stop using forever. And unlike what some other commenter said, MDMA != meth, never ever touch that stuff.
As a final comment, when I was younger I fell into the trap of reading Tucker Max, followed by 'The Game' by Neil Strauss, and then went down the rabbit hole into pickup artist forums. I strongly advise against this stuff. Pickup artist routines work (for social and romantic situations), but I found them deeply unsatisfying and nihilistic. These frameworks rely on impersonating a character rather than being yourself. There are useful tricks (in any social framework) for getting people to like you, but at the core you want people to like you for your true (and hopefully lovely) personality.
Firstly, good work on joining the gym. If you can afford it, get yourself a qualified personal trainer at least once a week. They will correct your technique, introduce you to other people in the gym, and act as a role model for social situations. Additionally, time in the gym with another person (trainer or friend) is positively associated with mental health benefits over time.
> The discomfort gets to the point where I blush
One of my most important learnings in new social situations was to not listen to my body. Blushing and sweating are physiological reactions. At the very worst, if you grind through it, your body will eventually give up and return to normal function after 15 minutes. With repeated exposure, your fight/flight mechanisms will temper down and learn the new normal. Having said that, sometimes I will take a 'smoke break' from social situations to go reduce my body temperature outside.
> My voice changes, my posture changes, everything changes.
My second most important learning is "be like dog". Dogs approach strangers and introduce themselves. They are interested in their new friend and listen to everything they have to say. If they could talk, they would be asking for more details, and complimenting their friend on their great choices. The key point here is that they are not waiting for permission to be themselves, sincerity is the default.
With respect to other commenters re: ecstasy, it is true that you may experience an entirely new mental / social state while under the influence. Making a friend for life in 30 minutes gives you some perspective on "normal speed" social interactions. Just make sure you remember that your mental state is altered: I attended raves for a year before I realised that I didn't like them, but the drug was making it impossible for me to have a bad time. There is also the chance that the drugs are cut with other substances, the risk of frying your brain, the risk of derailing into a junky. You should always have a non-negotiable end date after which you will stop using forever. And unlike what some other commenter said, MDMA != meth, never ever touch that stuff.
As a final comment, when I was younger I fell into the trap of reading Tucker Max, followed by 'The Game' by Neil Strauss, and then went down the rabbit hole into pickup artist forums. I strongly advise against this stuff. Pickup artist routines work (for social and romantic situations), but I found them deeply unsatisfying and nihilistic. These frameworks rely on impersonating a character rather than being yourself. There are useful tricks (in any social framework) for getting people to like you, but at the core you want people to like you for your true (and hopefully lovely) personality.
Since, you're asking for personal reports, I may as well chime in.
I've managed to improve my ability to feel at ease when confronted with new people and places. This is something I did on my own, but like others have said, seeking professional expertise may help you achieve your goals more effectively, or may uncover things that need to be addressed in other ways.
It may help to identify which specific parts of social interactions make you uneasy. For me it was feeling like I wouldn't have anything to say in response and that an awkward pause would ensue. I often second-guessed myself and felt like my responses didn't have worth. If your situation is different, the rest may not apply.
The first changes I made were to view my situation as temporary. Instead of framing myself as a permanently awkward conversationalist, I framed my starting point as a challenge to build new skills. While some people learn these intuitively, I had to consciously build them[1]. By framing my challenge as a skill-building journey, I was able to make progress by seeking out specific information in order to build this skill.
There were three techniques I practiced to help me build this skill. Topic vectoring[2], open-ended questions, and question-statement balancing.
Topic vectoring is a simple heuristic for picking an appropriate response. A conversation response can go "up" a level by speaking more generally about the topic, go "down" a level by drilling down to a specific detail about the topic, or move laterally by shifting to an adjacent topic. Conversations progress by incrementally accreting small topic shifts. When too large of a topic shift is introduced, it is hard for the other participant(s) to follow along. This includes shifts that compose multiple directions. When I'm reaching for a response, I use this tool to pick an appropriate one.
You've most certainly heard of open-ended questions before. Practicing open-ended questions was a skill I made a point of developing by monitoring my proportion of responses and adjusting as necessary. Good questions are conversational expanders. They require little from the querent and little from the respondent. They can feel like a good layup when done right.
The same goes for question-statement balancing. Too many statements, and it begins to look like I just want to talk about my interests, and too many questions looks more like an interrogation than a conversation.
All of these skills fit together in a way that make me feel like I know how navigate conversations much better than I did before. Quickly, it's important to describe what they are not. They are not memorizing a bunch of conversation prompts. They are heuristics that can be practiced, employed tactically, and form a cohesive toolkit. I strive for balanced conversations where other people feel heard and engaged, and I can walk away feeling the same way.
Best of luck to you on your journey whichever path it takes. :)
1. There is probably some amount of neuro-atypicalness at play here, but that's not something I've explored too much.
2. The resource explaining this may be lost to the sands of time and it certainly went by another name.
I've managed to improve my ability to feel at ease when confronted with new people and places. This is something I did on my own, but like others have said, seeking professional expertise may help you achieve your goals more effectively, or may uncover things that need to be addressed in other ways.
It may help to identify which specific parts of social interactions make you uneasy. For me it was feeling like I wouldn't have anything to say in response and that an awkward pause would ensue. I often second-guessed myself and felt like my responses didn't have worth. If your situation is different, the rest may not apply.
The first changes I made were to view my situation as temporary. Instead of framing myself as a permanently awkward conversationalist, I framed my starting point as a challenge to build new skills. While some people learn these intuitively, I had to consciously build them[1]. By framing my challenge as a skill-building journey, I was able to make progress by seeking out specific information in order to build this skill.
There were three techniques I practiced to help me build this skill. Topic vectoring[2], open-ended questions, and question-statement balancing.
Topic vectoring is a simple heuristic for picking an appropriate response. A conversation response can go "up" a level by speaking more generally about the topic, go "down" a level by drilling down to a specific detail about the topic, or move laterally by shifting to an adjacent topic. Conversations progress by incrementally accreting small topic shifts. When too large of a topic shift is introduced, it is hard for the other participant(s) to follow along. This includes shifts that compose multiple directions. When I'm reaching for a response, I use this tool to pick an appropriate one.
You've most certainly heard of open-ended questions before. Practicing open-ended questions was a skill I made a point of developing by monitoring my proportion of responses and adjusting as necessary. Good questions are conversational expanders. They require little from the querent and little from the respondent. They can feel like a good layup when done right.
The same goes for question-statement balancing. Too many statements, and it begins to look like I just want to talk about my interests, and too many questions looks more like an interrogation than a conversation.
All of these skills fit together in a way that make me feel like I know how navigate conversations much better than I did before. Quickly, it's important to describe what they are not. They are not memorizing a bunch of conversation prompts. They are heuristics that can be practiced, employed tactically, and form a cohesive toolkit. I strive for balanced conversations where other people feel heard and engaged, and I can walk away feeling the same way.
Best of luck to you on your journey whichever path it takes. :)
1. There is probably some amount of neuro-atypicalness at play here, but that's not something I've explored too much.
2. The resource explaining this may be lost to the sands of time and it certainly went by another name.
I went from awkward to charismatic, so I can empathize.
* Warning: if you want to succeed at this you’ll have to experiment and fail. That’s not fun. But you will come out the other side a far more interesting and effective person.
* Several of the things mentioned here will benefit from practice. You can do this practice when you have otherwise unstructured time, such as driving, jogging, sitting on the bus, and so on.
This passage contains its own breakthrough:
> To be fair to myself, I am not awful in social situations in that depending on the context I can be seemingly confident and calm, especially when I am among people I know and the context is familiar.
When I thought about that I concluded that acting as confident and calm as I am around my friends was the key. I understood that if I could use that magnetism in otherwise uncomfortable situations I could level up like crazy. And I did. What I would do was act out how I would behave in meetings or sales situation in my head ahead of time, and I imagined the people I was dealing with to be my closest friends. This technique didn’t come naturally, which meant I had to mess it up several times before I got the hang of it.
This ability will also come in handy when your spouse or someone else close to you is angry at you, justifiably or not. I have been in many situations where I was accused of something I didn’t do, and I could not advocate for myself because I was too scared. Now that I work these things out before hand, I am more able to take control of the situation in a way that is as fair as possible to me.
* Being a genuine listener helps enormously. People like it when you try to understand and feel the message they are conveying. Don’t worry about trying to get your opinion across when you were trying to listen. Don’t try to give them advice unless they explicitly ask for it. Feel free to say absolutely nothing when someone is talking to you and just try to take it in.
* The black belt listening skill is being so good at it that you can make the other person in the conversation laugh. As with any advanced skill, don’t try this until you’ve completed the other skill levels. Otherwise it just sounds like you’re awkwardly inserting prefab jokes into the conversation. to hear this done right, listen to top podcast interviewers. Many of them are quite funny, but their humor almost always revolves around a perceptive and intelligent response to the guest.
* Truly confident people say “I don’t know“ all the time. Even if you’re not confident, being able to say it in public will make you a more confident person, and a better one to be around.
* It helped me very much to get good at things that others find difficult. Teaching myself to be a tech writer so I could not have to work for McDonald’s, then teaching myself to be a programmer so I could not have to work as a tech writer, and making more money than the losers I grew up with each helped me. I know I am supposed to tell you that we should be self-sufficient and not worry about what other people think. All I can say is that these things did help my confidence massively.
A more conventional method:
* I haven’t taken it but I have never heard anyone complain that the Dale Carnegie course was in effective.
* Warning: if you want to succeed at this you’ll have to experiment and fail. That’s not fun. But you will come out the other side a far more interesting and effective person.
* Several of the things mentioned here will benefit from practice. You can do this practice when you have otherwise unstructured time, such as driving, jogging, sitting on the bus, and so on.
This passage contains its own breakthrough:
> To be fair to myself, I am not awful in social situations in that depending on the context I can be seemingly confident and calm, especially when I am among people I know and the context is familiar.
When I thought about that I concluded that acting as confident and calm as I am around my friends was the key. I understood that if I could use that magnetism in otherwise uncomfortable situations I could level up like crazy. And I did. What I would do was act out how I would behave in meetings or sales situation in my head ahead of time, and I imagined the people I was dealing with to be my closest friends. This technique didn’t come naturally, which meant I had to mess it up several times before I got the hang of it.
This ability will also come in handy when your spouse or someone else close to you is angry at you, justifiably or not. I have been in many situations where I was accused of something I didn’t do, and I could not advocate for myself because I was too scared. Now that I work these things out before hand, I am more able to take control of the situation in a way that is as fair as possible to me.
* Being a genuine listener helps enormously. People like it when you try to understand and feel the message they are conveying. Don’t worry about trying to get your opinion across when you were trying to listen. Don’t try to give them advice unless they explicitly ask for it. Feel free to say absolutely nothing when someone is talking to you and just try to take it in.
* The black belt listening skill is being so good at it that you can make the other person in the conversation laugh. As with any advanced skill, don’t try this until you’ve completed the other skill levels. Otherwise it just sounds like you’re awkwardly inserting prefab jokes into the conversation. to hear this done right, listen to top podcast interviewers. Many of them are quite funny, but their humor almost always revolves around a perceptive and intelligent response to the guest.
* Truly confident people say “I don’t know“ all the time. Even if you’re not confident, being able to say it in public will make you a more confident person, and a better one to be around.
* It helped me very much to get good at things that others find difficult. Teaching myself to be a tech writer so I could not have to work for McDonald’s, then teaching myself to be a programmer so I could not have to work as a tech writer, and making more money than the losers I grew up with each helped me. I know I am supposed to tell you that we should be self-sufficient and not worry about what other people think. All I can say is that these things did help my confidence massively.
A more conventional method:
* I haven’t taken it but I have never heard anyone complain that the Dale Carnegie course was in effective.
Fake it till you make it.
Stopped giving a fuck
[deleted]
Hallucinogens in social situations, preferably small to medium size parties.
I got older I guess.
Drugs, clubs, sex
Learn to dance,
I married well.
focus on what you can give, and give
instead of what you need.
its all in your head.
#drunkhn
instead of what you need.
its all in your head.
#drunkhn
Social dancing
Lots of great comments here on how social awkwardness fades and changes with age and experience, definitely something that happened to me. Personally I've went from being that shy weirdo to a hyper-social product manager who primarily does presentations, phone-calls, events, coordinates people etc.
My success story was all about a series of customer service jobs in college - foodtruck worker, uber driver, english teacher etc. The social awkwardness wears off when you have to rinse and repeat. And when there is a very good, albeit trivial reason for you to be talking and to being talked to. You learn to create a script in your head, you become comfortable, you try new things and you go off of that script. You learn to fail, you learn to fail fast, and since the interactions are brief, there aren't really any consequences. I basically learned how to not give a fuck.
I would say gym is nice for getting yourself into a certain state of mind, but if you want to make progress in social skill you could probably find that kind of random-stranger-interaction activity. Roles help with this, because people find it easier to talk to someone who is in a specific role and there is a reason for the interaction.
There are two other thoughts I have on this subject:
One is that a big tactic that always works against awkward moments is calling them out. Invariably what makes awkward people awkward is that when they do or say something awkward they will pretend it wasn't so or didn't happen. This is only cringe-inducing for the other party, but they will never say anything because they wouldn't want to offend. You can always take control of a social interaction no matter what happens by immediately confronting that you just did or said something awkward. That then becomes a sort of comedic relief and you're free to change the subject, move on etc. When you realize that it is actually that easy, the stakes of any interaction go way down and you become that version of yourself you want to be.
Second, is that for me learning to deal with social interactions has been a bit like getting into cold water of a lake to swim. Inexperienced swimmers will torment themselves inching in and fretting about getting cold. This is only a waste of energy and an internal struggle. Once you realize that the several minutes of cold are inevitable you just jump in and start moving. It's much better to just get an interaction started off on an awkward leg and to warm up whoever you're talking to, than to remain in that stiff anxious place.
From my perspective today I see social awkwardness as a kind of stage in growing up. It did not seem so at the time, but growing out of that time might just have been inevitable and might have happened no matter what.
That being said, growing up out of social awkwardness does feel like finally entering the club of real adults.
My success story was all about a series of customer service jobs in college - foodtruck worker, uber driver, english teacher etc. The social awkwardness wears off when you have to rinse and repeat. And when there is a very good, albeit trivial reason for you to be talking and to being talked to. You learn to create a script in your head, you become comfortable, you try new things and you go off of that script. You learn to fail, you learn to fail fast, and since the interactions are brief, there aren't really any consequences. I basically learned how to not give a fuck.
I would say gym is nice for getting yourself into a certain state of mind, but if you want to make progress in social skill you could probably find that kind of random-stranger-interaction activity. Roles help with this, because people find it easier to talk to someone who is in a specific role and there is a reason for the interaction.
There are two other thoughts I have on this subject:
One is that a big tactic that always works against awkward moments is calling them out. Invariably what makes awkward people awkward is that when they do or say something awkward they will pretend it wasn't so or didn't happen. This is only cringe-inducing for the other party, but they will never say anything because they wouldn't want to offend. You can always take control of a social interaction no matter what happens by immediately confronting that you just did or said something awkward. That then becomes a sort of comedic relief and you're free to change the subject, move on etc. When you realize that it is actually that easy, the stakes of any interaction go way down and you become that version of yourself you want to be.
Second, is that for me learning to deal with social interactions has been a bit like getting into cold water of a lake to swim. Inexperienced swimmers will torment themselves inching in and fretting about getting cold. This is only a waste of energy and an internal struggle. Once you realize that the several minutes of cold are inevitable you just jump in and start moving. It's much better to just get an interaction started off on an awkward leg and to warm up whoever you're talking to, than to remain in that stiff anxious place.
From my perspective today I see social awkwardness as a kind of stage in growing up. It did not seem so at the time, but growing out of that time might just have been inevitable and might have happened no matter what.
That being said, growing up out of social awkwardness does feel like finally entering the club of real adults.
Sorry it ended being too long ... but it is late, so I will let it be.
I used to be very fearful of talking, I would be ok in 1:1 or 1:2 scenarios. But put me in a bigger group, and I will not speak a word, Zero. And I would panic if the spotlight was thrown at me. I have spent entire business dinners (in group settings, then age 30 or so) without speaking. While I am still awkward at times, a lot of the fear has gone away. But it takes years (or decades).
I think the top comment (currently) by perardi has the right ideas, let me rephrase it to say: practice, experience and time. You can practice practice practice but you need real life experience, and sometime things just take time.
To begin with, I had the burden of stammering for the first 10 years of my life. People would constantly make fun of me. I eventually fixed it but it creates fear of speaking. I come from a country in the Asian continent, and did not speak English (could write) till I was almost in college. Being able to speak English took a few years to fix. I remember having to say "jealous" in a college setting, the first time I tried to speak it (had never heard someone verbalize it till then I think), and eventually I could not, so I spoke it as if I was spelling it. Laughter apart, the associated fears of people making fun never went away, and it became a part of my psyche. Then when I could speak without worrying about English failures, I will speak at the pace of a rocketship. Top speed only - always on Autobahn. Yikes.
Things are different now. I am not an extrovert, but I get commended for being able to explain things clearly (verbally). In my case, it was primarily the time that helped. I did not practice much, and experience came by being forced in situations. In hindsight, practice and (more) experience would have helped, but my fear would not let me. And for more than a decade I did not believe I could fix it because everyone else could communicate so much better than me, that I always thought I was different and this was my life !! I did read about the tricks of public speaking, but they only provided incremental improvements, never a sea change.
What eventually changed is 1) decades long time+experience followed by 2) me deciding to change it. So of course with time you get thrust into many opportunities for presentation and leading projects, maybe make some small talk, and each of those eventually helps. In the past I would have passed them on, but at some point I decided to take them on. Rather than me following a script at someone's direction for presentations / meetings, I used the opportunities to build my own scripts and the entire narrative. What helped was an understanding management who did not push me, so I was driven myself. And once I executed some of these on my own, the fear just went away. And once the fear goes away, it takes care of lots of other issues - it frees up your mind to think about the pace, think about the audience, think about the live tweaking of the content based on how the presentations are going - it is just amazing. Does not mean the nervousness has completely gone away, no, it is there, but you know that with enough preparation and rehearsals, and by knowing the content you can handle most things.
But this started by being "shy and socially awkward". What does presentation skills / public speaking have to do with that? My personal experience is that they are somehow tied together. I am not in a dating world trying to meet new people, but in a professional world, I am less wooden and able to relate to and converse with lot more people than before, because I know ... I can.
Does that mean everything is fixed ... I wish :)
In hindsight, if I had put in hard work to practice and gain experience (by finding opportunities), I think I would have shaved off 5-10 years of the additional time it took. Even if you (or I) are not capable, practice helps. Having the experience helps. And time helps because from each successful or failed experience, your body or mind has had the time to internalize these learnings.
I used to be very fearful of talking, I would be ok in 1:1 or 1:2 scenarios. But put me in a bigger group, and I will not speak a word, Zero. And I would panic if the spotlight was thrown at me. I have spent entire business dinners (in group settings, then age 30 or so) without speaking. While I am still awkward at times, a lot of the fear has gone away. But it takes years (or decades).
I think the top comment (currently) by perardi has the right ideas, let me rephrase it to say: practice, experience and time. You can practice practice practice but you need real life experience, and sometime things just take time.
To begin with, I had the burden of stammering for the first 10 years of my life. People would constantly make fun of me. I eventually fixed it but it creates fear of speaking. I come from a country in the Asian continent, and did not speak English (could write) till I was almost in college. Being able to speak English took a few years to fix. I remember having to say "jealous" in a college setting, the first time I tried to speak it (had never heard someone verbalize it till then I think), and eventually I could not, so I spoke it as if I was spelling it. Laughter apart, the associated fears of people making fun never went away, and it became a part of my psyche. Then when I could speak without worrying about English failures, I will speak at the pace of a rocketship. Top speed only - always on Autobahn. Yikes.
Things are different now. I am not an extrovert, but I get commended for being able to explain things clearly (verbally). In my case, it was primarily the time that helped. I did not practice much, and experience came by being forced in situations. In hindsight, practice and (more) experience would have helped, but my fear would not let me. And for more than a decade I did not believe I could fix it because everyone else could communicate so much better than me, that I always thought I was different and this was my life !! I did read about the tricks of public speaking, but they only provided incremental improvements, never a sea change.
What eventually changed is 1) decades long time+experience followed by 2) me deciding to change it. So of course with time you get thrust into many opportunities for presentation and leading projects, maybe make some small talk, and each of those eventually helps. In the past I would have passed them on, but at some point I decided to take them on. Rather than me following a script at someone's direction for presentations / meetings, I used the opportunities to build my own scripts and the entire narrative. What helped was an understanding management who did not push me, so I was driven myself. And once I executed some of these on my own, the fear just went away. And once the fear goes away, it takes care of lots of other issues - it frees up your mind to think about the pace, think about the audience, think about the live tweaking of the content based on how the presentations are going - it is just amazing. Does not mean the nervousness has completely gone away, no, it is there, but you know that with enough preparation and rehearsals, and by knowing the content you can handle most things.
But this started by being "shy and socially awkward". What does presentation skills / public speaking have to do with that? My personal experience is that they are somehow tied together. I am not in a dating world trying to meet new people, but in a professional world, I am less wooden and able to relate to and converse with lot more people than before, because I know ... I can.
Does that mean everything is fixed ... I wish :)
In hindsight, if I had put in hard work to practice and gain experience (by finding opportunities), I think I would have shaved off 5-10 years of the additional time it took. Even if you (or I) are not capable, practice helps. Having the experience helps. And time helps because from each successful or failed experience, your body or mind has had the time to internalize these learnings.
Practice
One thing that helped me was analyzing things in terms of what I think of as "anxiety loops".
First, think about how anxiety happens. Imagine you're about to cross the street at a quiet intersection. A car rounds the corner going way too fast and zooms right at you. You jump out of the way and are fine. Next time you get to that corner you will experience anxiety based on the association between a scary experience and what you were perceiving at the time. It will likely change your behavior a bit. Maybe you'll look around more, maybe you'll hesitate before crossing, maybe you'll cross somewhere else. With enough positive experiences, the anxiety will fade and it's back to normal.
But imagine that the anxiety and resulting behavior change actually makes things worse? That's not true about the street-crossing example. [1] But it can be true for other things. E.g., for years my anxiety around taxes would make doing taxes more painful, making me more anxious the next time. It's also true for many social things, just as you describe. You can end up in a positive feedback loop where things keep getting worse.
What helped me was a few years of a good therapist and anti-anxiety medication. It got me to recognize the systemic component to the problem and to start dealing with it. In particular, I had to let go of what I thought I should be experiencing ("It's safe! I should be fine!) and accept what I was experiencing (anxiety, awkwardness, etc). From there it was sort of like training a dog in that I had to make sure I was creating actually positive experiences for myself.
I think you're on to something with exercise, and I encourage all sorts of self-experimentation here. For me, long-duration cardio helps a lot. So does a regular sleep cycle, a diet low in refined carbs, and things that relax the body (yoga, steam, hot tubs, etc). I also manage my consumption of things that are intense (games, movies, TV), as that can increase my baseline anxiety. The lower baseline means that things like talking with strangers is less likely to trigger the formation of an anxiety loop.
I hope that helps! If you're looking for a book, "The Body Keeps The Score" was hugely useful to me in seeing the big picture. And if you think social stuff is harder for you than most, talk with your therapist about that too. It's a sad truth that many non-neurotypical people are justifiably anxious about neurotypical social situations because those situations are a long-term source of low-grade trauma.
I hope that helps, and you should feel free to contact me off-site if you want to follow up without the eyes of the whole world upon you.
[1] Unless it was so severe that you developed PTSD, in which case you may end up with a self-reinforcing trauma loop.
First, think about how anxiety happens. Imagine you're about to cross the street at a quiet intersection. A car rounds the corner going way too fast and zooms right at you. You jump out of the way and are fine. Next time you get to that corner you will experience anxiety based on the association between a scary experience and what you were perceiving at the time. It will likely change your behavior a bit. Maybe you'll look around more, maybe you'll hesitate before crossing, maybe you'll cross somewhere else. With enough positive experiences, the anxiety will fade and it's back to normal.
But imagine that the anxiety and resulting behavior change actually makes things worse? That's not true about the street-crossing example. [1] But it can be true for other things. E.g., for years my anxiety around taxes would make doing taxes more painful, making me more anxious the next time. It's also true for many social things, just as you describe. You can end up in a positive feedback loop where things keep getting worse.
What helped me was a few years of a good therapist and anti-anxiety medication. It got me to recognize the systemic component to the problem and to start dealing with it. In particular, I had to let go of what I thought I should be experiencing ("It's safe! I should be fine!) and accept what I was experiencing (anxiety, awkwardness, etc). From there it was sort of like training a dog in that I had to make sure I was creating actually positive experiences for myself.
I think you're on to something with exercise, and I encourage all sorts of self-experimentation here. For me, long-duration cardio helps a lot. So does a regular sleep cycle, a diet low in refined carbs, and things that relax the body (yoga, steam, hot tubs, etc). I also manage my consumption of things that are intense (games, movies, TV), as that can increase my baseline anxiety. The lower baseline means that things like talking with strangers is less likely to trigger the formation of an anxiety loop.
I hope that helps! If you're looking for a book, "The Body Keeps The Score" was hugely useful to me in seeing the big picture. And if you think social stuff is harder for you than most, talk with your therapist about that too. It's a sad truth that many non-neurotypical people are justifiably anxious about neurotypical social situations because those situations are a long-term source of low-grade trauma.
I hope that helps, and you should feel free to contact me off-site if you want to follow up without the eyes of the whole world upon you.
[1] Unless it was so severe that you developed PTSD, in which case you may end up with a self-reinforcing trauma loop.
Acroyoga
Ultimately it was exposure and practice of various kinds over the years, some natural some "enforced/intentional". I am a strong introvert (defined here as: I love people but social interactions exhaust my energy and I need to recharge alone). I used to be completely quiet in social settings during ages, oh, 6-25 or so, and very definitely shy & awkward. Today, people who have met me in last decade are convinced I'm a chatty extrovert.
Few things:
1. In my mid-20's, I got a consulting job. I went from project to project, meeting new people, team members and clients. Building from a central core of confidence in my competence, it "leaked" that confidence into the accompanying social interactions as well. I dealt with people younger and older, technical and functional, of all kinds of personalities and walks of life. But! We had a reason to be there, a goal and mission and process and procedure, so it eliminated a lot of awkwardness and uncertainty and exposed me to varied social interactions 40 hours a week for years. As I grew my confidence in my work skills my confidence and comfort in social interactions grew as well.
2. I was a shy child, then in a civil war during my formative years of ~12-15. Let's call me a "late bloomer" when it comes to opposite sex :). After years of awkwardness and "lusting from afar" and just not going anywhere, I finally blew my gasket and one day decided "Enough is enough, I'll figure it out" and signed up for lavalife. I went on dates with conscious approach of "I'll probably survive this".
Following sentence will make different amount of sense and obviousness depending which side of divide you're on, but eventually I learned: It's not rocket science, it's not deadly, it's doable. If you're a honest, open, semi-interesting person, dating is not hard. (Finding "the one" is more and longer work of course; I'm lucky to have done so and happily married with 2 kids now :)
3. I have many interests and hobbies, so going to photography meetups and classes, rock climbing, motorsports, etc, have all allowed me to experience additional social interactions built around a core interest and confidence and competency. Volunteering to teach or help with something you're strong at (computer literacy for example) will do absolute wonders. Teaching is amazing btw - there's a clear and easily understandable social situation where all attention is on you but in a friendly and well defined way. And though that sounds Sheldon-like, it is also amazingly rewarding fun and interesting!
Also note, there are many paths to social acceptance. I have not chameleoned fully into social norms and strive for middle of bell curve - I'm still considered a bit weird; but it's said in a loving / amusing way (usually :-). I own it, I have significant confidence into who how what I am, and that seems to be the key ultimately, at least for any people I am interested in :-).
[Personally, FWIW, and not to discourage but to share in wonderful variety of humanity :), Gym is the absolute positive LAST place I would've ever suggested my teenager self to reduce social awkwardness; for me, instead of starting from a core of confidence, it would start from the core of insecurity and incompetence, and to me a strange and incomprehensible social habits and contracts, suffused with body exposure and smells and all too frequently macho bravado and bro culture; but it may well work for others, and certainly if you do gym hard and long, it'll improve your body and body image (neither my confidence or self-consciousness have ever stemmed from my body; I'm neither embarrassed or proud of it - it just is :). ]
Few things:
1. In my mid-20's, I got a consulting job. I went from project to project, meeting new people, team members and clients. Building from a central core of confidence in my competence, it "leaked" that confidence into the accompanying social interactions as well. I dealt with people younger and older, technical and functional, of all kinds of personalities and walks of life. But! We had a reason to be there, a goal and mission and process and procedure, so it eliminated a lot of awkwardness and uncertainty and exposed me to varied social interactions 40 hours a week for years. As I grew my confidence in my work skills my confidence and comfort in social interactions grew as well.
2. I was a shy child, then in a civil war during my formative years of ~12-15. Let's call me a "late bloomer" when it comes to opposite sex :). After years of awkwardness and "lusting from afar" and just not going anywhere, I finally blew my gasket and one day decided "Enough is enough, I'll figure it out" and signed up for lavalife. I went on dates with conscious approach of "I'll probably survive this".
Following sentence will make different amount of sense and obviousness depending which side of divide you're on, but eventually I learned: It's not rocket science, it's not deadly, it's doable. If you're a honest, open, semi-interesting person, dating is not hard. (Finding "the one" is more and longer work of course; I'm lucky to have done so and happily married with 2 kids now :)
3. I have many interests and hobbies, so going to photography meetups and classes, rock climbing, motorsports, etc, have all allowed me to experience additional social interactions built around a core interest and confidence and competency. Volunteering to teach or help with something you're strong at (computer literacy for example) will do absolute wonders. Teaching is amazing btw - there's a clear and easily understandable social situation where all attention is on you but in a friendly and well defined way. And though that sounds Sheldon-like, it is also amazingly rewarding fun and interesting!
Also note, there are many paths to social acceptance. I have not chameleoned fully into social norms and strive for middle of bell curve - I'm still considered a bit weird; but it's said in a loving / amusing way (usually :-). I own it, I have significant confidence into who how what I am, and that seems to be the key ultimately, at least for any people I am interested in :-).
[Personally, FWIW, and not to discourage but to share in wonderful variety of humanity :), Gym is the absolute positive LAST place I would've ever suggested my teenager self to reduce social awkwardness; for me, instead of starting from a core of confidence, it would start from the core of insecurity and incompetence, and to me a strange and incomprehensible social habits and contracts, suffused with body exposure and smells and all too frequently macho bravado and bro culture; but it may well work for others, and certainly if you do gym hard and long, it'll improve your body and body image (neither my confidence or self-consciousness have ever stemmed from my body; I'm neither embarrassed or proud of it - it just is :). ]
got a job as a car salesman. If I wanted to pay my bills I needed to talk to people... sounds silly, but it was very helpful. tldr; throw yourself in the deep end.
TL;DR - embrace it, unless it hinders your life - its a sign what you enjoy and don't enjoy.
Long story:
I used to be introverted and awkward, couldn't hold eyesight with strangers - was really afraid. It was so bad that I tend to get anxiety attacks whilst riding the underground train whilst being too close to people.
In university and thanks to European slacking on alcohol consumption laws, I got super confident by having 3 shots of absinth and getting to go to talk to that girl at the bar which turned out to be a pornstar and it made a good story.
It was kind of fake confidence, but really helped pushing through and I realised that it always resulted in new opportunities, conversations and serendipity.
Later down the road I started putting myself into uncomfortable situations "intentionally". I would ask strangers for cigarettes on the street being afraid to get rejected, I asked a discount at Starbucks where there was none (thanks Noah Kagan), I went so far as to go and lie down on the ground in the middle of the street for people to just stare at me at disbelief (thanks Tim Ferris).
Eventually once you push yourself out of the comfort zone, it becomes normal. When you train your brain muscle often enough knowing nothing bad happens you get used to the situations, conversations and even just being yourself.
You also realise 99.99% people on this planet are insecure monkeys and whoever is running around and flashing their golden watches is actually more awkward than you.
I later got a job in tech sales (WTF?!?). This pushed me even harder into conversations which were sort of forced. Its a script you learn and can apply later down unconsciously. I started even dividing people into various types based on behavior. Again, it becomes a muscle.
However as any muscle, if you stop training it - it will probably go back a little bit, not to the extreme level though.
In the end I realised I am still that weird nerd, that sometimes gets nervous around people and in many cases I prefer rather to stay home than go and socialise. But thats probably also part of adulting.
Essentially, I started embracing the lifestyle around awkwardness - learning to code, reading comics again at 34!, digging into the rabbit hole of sci-fi book plots and just enjoying the more introverted activities that don't push me to go out and talk to people because it still drains me.
I don't see anything wrong about that, I build the life around my personality - not the other way around.
The caveat is that it still good to push yourself to improve because human situations are the ones that will define your life (salary negos, sales, dating). So if you can't flick that switch you will be held back but in the end it should be on your terms.
EDIT: typos
Long story:
I used to be introverted and awkward, couldn't hold eyesight with strangers - was really afraid. It was so bad that I tend to get anxiety attacks whilst riding the underground train whilst being too close to people.
In university and thanks to European slacking on alcohol consumption laws, I got super confident by having 3 shots of absinth and getting to go to talk to that girl at the bar which turned out to be a pornstar and it made a good story.
It was kind of fake confidence, but really helped pushing through and I realised that it always resulted in new opportunities, conversations and serendipity.
Later down the road I started putting myself into uncomfortable situations "intentionally". I would ask strangers for cigarettes on the street being afraid to get rejected, I asked a discount at Starbucks where there was none (thanks Noah Kagan), I went so far as to go and lie down on the ground in the middle of the street for people to just stare at me at disbelief (thanks Tim Ferris).
Eventually once you push yourself out of the comfort zone, it becomes normal. When you train your brain muscle often enough knowing nothing bad happens you get used to the situations, conversations and even just being yourself.
You also realise 99.99% people on this planet are insecure monkeys and whoever is running around and flashing their golden watches is actually more awkward than you.
I later got a job in tech sales (WTF?!?). This pushed me even harder into conversations which were sort of forced. Its a script you learn and can apply later down unconsciously. I started even dividing people into various types based on behavior. Again, it becomes a muscle.
However as any muscle, if you stop training it - it will probably go back a little bit, not to the extreme level though.
In the end I realised I am still that weird nerd, that sometimes gets nervous around people and in many cases I prefer rather to stay home than go and socialise. But thats probably also part of adulting.
Essentially, I started embracing the lifestyle around awkwardness - learning to code, reading comics again at 34!, digging into the rabbit hole of sci-fi book plots and just enjoying the more introverted activities that don't push me to go out and talk to people because it still drains me.
I don't see anything wrong about that, I build the life around my personality - not the other way around.
The caveat is that it still good to push yourself to improve because human situations are the ones that will define your life (salary negos, sales, dating). So if you can't flick that switch you will be held back but in the end it should be on your terms.
EDIT: typos
Just hit the gym, get swole, fuck bitches, don't give a fuck bro. Eat some rare steaks, sun your balls outside, avoid soy and seed oils, wink at women on the street, laugh at their weird looks in response, quit watching porn, use the internet less, embrace your testosterone, watch movies about manly men, read books about warrior poets, admire your physique in the mirror.
Now you're thinking, this is a joke, this is a characature, this isn't me, what a douche, what a phony; nah brah, those douches are happy and confident, you're not; swallow your ego and let your animal side come out. Don't intellectualize about a problem that itself stems from over intellectualization
Now you're thinking, this is a joke, this is a characature, this isn't me, what a douche, what a phony; nah brah, those douches are happy and confident, you're not; swallow your ego and let your animal side come out. Don't intellectualize about a problem that itself stems from over intellectualization
We found Mark Manson‘s account
Define "improve", I myself do not see changing the way one behaves to fit some socially accepted standard as improvement of any kind whatsoever.
By the way, this question is off-topic here, please use reddit.
By the way, this question is off-topic here, please use reddit.
To be fair to myself, I am not awful in social situations in that depending on the context I can be seemingly confident and calm, especially when I am among people I know and the context is familiar.
When it comes to new people and places, everything changes dramatically. My voice changes, my posture changes, everything changes. I can start being awkward in all possible senses.
The discomfort gets to the point where I blush and this physical state of vulnerability and self-doubt of course makes things even worse :)
I understand that all of that relates to self-esteem and phychology in general therefore my question.
It's common to advise hitting on the gym, which I just started doing last week. Funnily, the gym is the place where I last noticed my awkward behavior :)
If you have managed to deal with that and improve in that regard, what is your success story?