A 10-Year Battery for AirTag(elevationlab.com)
elevationlab.com
A 10-Year Battery for AirTag
https://www.elevationlab.com/blogs/news/introducing-timecapsule
587 comments
I've retrieved stolen bikes, one because of an airtag. Showed up with a couple friends standing by but not trying to be intimidating. It's mostly about staying calm and telling the person this is mine, I'm taking it. They always say "no it's my friend's, you're gonna piss him off" or "I just bought this" or something. Maybe you offer some fraction of a "reward" to smooth it along and cut your losses. Don't try to start a fight and it generally goes OK. Also, try not to accuse them of stealing, they'll just get defensive. "It's someone else who is screwing us both, but this is mine sorry."
If it’s left anywhere in the open at anytime, you can repossess it legally as well. This happens with auto repossessions all the time. You don’t owe anyone an explanation as it’s yours - just take it if you can do so safely.
Just be careful! In SOME jurisdictions, you can get in trouble for 'stealing' if you take back something that was stolen. Possession vs Ownership are 2 different things. For instance, the thief may have stolen something, sold it to someone who bought it in good-faith, and you take it back from that person, it's technically theft!
File a police report, go through the right channels. If you know its yours, call the police department non-emergency and explain the situation
File a police report, go through the right channels. If you know its yours, call the police department non-emergency and explain the situation
I’d be curious what jurisdiction that is true.
In my jurisdiction in the US it doesn’t matter if someone purchased the stolen goods or not, the goods still belong to the owner. This is sometimes called the "nemo dat" rule:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo_dat_quod_non_habet
The person buying the stolen goods would need to file a claim against the thief to recover their money, but the goods still belong to the original owner. And this is how it should be, since it’s added reason not to buy goods you suspect are stolen.
And yes, you should always try and work with the police first and foremost.
In my jurisdiction in the US it doesn’t matter if someone purchased the stolen goods or not, the goods still belong to the owner. This is sometimes called the "nemo dat" rule:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo_dat_quod_non_habet
The person buying the stolen goods would need to file a claim against the thief to recover their money, but the goods still belong to the original owner. And this is how it should be, since it’s added reason not to buy goods you suspect are stolen.
And yes, you should always try and work with the police first and foremost.
That is probably mostly a common law thing, and as the article notes
> however, in many cases, more than one innocent party is involved, making judgment difficult for courts and leading to numerous exceptions to the general rule that aim to give a degree of protection to bona fide purchasers and original owners
> The person buying the stolen goods would need to file a claim against the thief to recover their money
Generally as long as the purchase is made in good faith, you are wrong. It is the original owner that needs to file a claim against the thief.
Obviously, what constitutes a sale in "good faith" is a rather imprecise science, although one steady element is the sales price: it needs to have been appropriate for the item. So for example a mint bicycle or antique coin should sell near sticker price.
> however, in many cases, more than one innocent party is involved, making judgment difficult for courts and leading to numerous exceptions to the general rule that aim to give a degree of protection to bona fide purchasers and original owners
> The person buying the stolen goods would need to file a claim against the thief to recover their money
Generally as long as the purchase is made in good faith, you are wrong. It is the original owner that needs to file a claim against the thief.
Obviously, what constitutes a sale in "good faith" is a rather imprecise science, although one steady element is the sales price: it needs to have been appropriate for the item. So for example a mint bicycle or antique coin should sell near sticker price.
> in many cases, more than one innocent party is involved, making judgment difficult for courts and leading to numerous exceptions to the general rule that aim to give a degree of protection to bona fide purchasers and original owners
The next sentence is:
> The possession of the good of title will be with the original owner.
So you seem to be wrong there. The innocent buyer needs to file a claim against the thief, the original owner retails their title. It is explained in more detail later on.
The next sentence is:
> The possession of the good of title will be with the original owner.
So you seem to be wrong there. The innocent buyer needs to file a claim against the thief, the original owner retails their title. It is explained in more detail later on.
No, I know our legal system quite well. You are wrong.
The reason for this is so that if you buy a bicycle at, say, a bicycle fair and for a reasonable price, you shouldn’t have to worry about it being yoinked from under you later on.
Lawmakers have clarified this is choosing between two evils, there is no winning proposition here.
So, in conclusion: the original owner needs to file the claim, not the third party.
The reason for this is so that if you buy a bicycle at, say, a bicycle fair and for a reasonable price, you shouldn’t have to worry about it being yoinked from under you later on.
Lawmakers have clarified this is choosing between two evils, there is no winning proposition here.
So, in conclusion: the original owner needs to file the claim, not the third party.
To the degree lawmakers have weighed in, as you say, can you point me to a citation protecting the subsequent purchaser? I don't practice in this area, but that is definitely not my understanding of the law.
This guy is wrong, which is why he isn't citing any legal authority.
As anyone who has gone to law school will tell you, you can only acquire the title that the seller has. If seller stole the goods, he doesn't have any title, so he can't transfer title to a subsequent buyer. See, e.g. UCC § 2-403
There are exceptions when it comes to those who have voidable title (thieves do not have voidable title).
There are also cases where courts have more or less created exceptions close to those OP has described. For example, if Best Buy receives some stolen merchandise and sells it to good faith purchasers, courts have held that the victim needs to pursue the thief/Best Buy, not the end purchaser.
But generally, OP is wrong: if you buy a stolen bike at a flea market, you don't get title and the owner can get the bike back. Think of the policy implications if the rule was as OP claims. All thieves would have to do is immediately sell stolen goods and the owners could never get them back. That would be absurd.
As anyone who has gone to law school will tell you, you can only acquire the title that the seller has. If seller stole the goods, he doesn't have any title, so he can't transfer title to a subsequent buyer. See, e.g. UCC § 2-403
There are exceptions when it comes to those who have voidable title (thieves do not have voidable title).
There are also cases where courts have more or less created exceptions close to those OP has described. For example, if Best Buy receives some stolen merchandise and sells it to good faith purchasers, courts have held that the victim needs to pursue the thief/Best Buy, not the end purchaser.
But generally, OP is wrong: if you buy a stolen bike at a flea market, you don't get title and the owner can get the bike back. Think of the policy implications if the rule was as OP claims. All thieves would have to do is immediately sell stolen goods and the owners could never get them back. That would be absurd.
> This guy is wrong, which is why he isn't citing any legal authority.
You never asked.
https://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0005291/2024-05-01 article 83 onward
> As anyone who has gone to law school will tell you
Sounds like you wasted $300 000 just to be wrong :)
> But generally, OP is wrong: if you buy a stolen bike at a flea market, you don't get title and the owner can get the bike back.
I said bike fair, not flea market.
I will reiterate: the sale needs to have been in good faith. All the conditions for that need to have been met.
You never asked.
https://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0005291/2024-05-01 article 83 onward
> As anyone who has gone to law school will tell you
Sounds like you wasted $300 000 just to be wrong :)
> But generally, OP is wrong: if you buy a stolen bike at a flea market, you don't get title and the owner can get the bike back.
I said bike fair, not flea market.
I will reiterate: the sale needs to have been in good faith. All the conditions for that need to have been met.
OP is just claiming that there exists juristrictions where his claim holds. IANALE (I am not a lawyer EVERYWHERE), so I can't really say that he's wrong. But you seem quite certain. Why?
The key element for a bona fide sale at common law is the buyer’s absence of knowledge of the defective title of the seller.
Not sure how US courts have interpreted this requirement but that’s the onus and I believe it rests on the third party buyer (to show absence of knowledge through evidence).
In that case the claim is against the thief only.
Not sure how US courts have interpreted this requirement but that’s the onus and I believe it rests on the third party buyer (to show absence of knowledge through evidence).
In that case the claim is against the thief only.
Sweden is one such jurisdiction[1]. You can only retake what has been stolen from you if it is done shortly after the theft.
[1] https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sj%C3%A4lvt%C3%A4kt
[1] https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sj%C3%A4lvt%C3%A4kt
...as appropriate for a culture of Viking raids, one would suppose!
Possession truly is 9/10ths of the law in this case I guess?
How would they even prove that if it's in the open? "Stolen? No idea, I've always had that bike, I just forgot where I left it last time. Went and got it back. By the way, here's the receipt."
This happened to me. I bought a pair of headphones (Nuraphones) on ebay, only to have them bricked by the company remotely.
IIRC, they had a security hole on their payment page: they forgot to implement SCA (strong customer authentification, aka 2FA for payments). Had they done this, the liability would have shifted onto the bank/card issuer. For some reason they decided to go after the customers in vain resentment, were acquired and their product was discontinued.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Nuraphone/comments/8iw3he/beware_on...
IIRC, they had a security hole on their payment page: they forgot to implement SCA (strong customer authentification, aka 2FA for payments). Had they done this, the liability would have shifted onto the bank/card issuer. For some reason they decided to go after the customers in vain resentment, were acquired and their product was discontinued.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Nuraphone/comments/8iw3he/beware_on...
Another jurisdiction example would be Romania. Even if the thief themselves are in possession of the property you own, you can be charged with theft if you steal it back. The law clearly delimits possession from ownership.
> it's technically theft!
i hope that isn't true. A buyer of stolen goods needs to accept that a consequence of it is that they could lose possession of said good. This is why for expensive goods, you should ensure you're not buying stolen goods.
i hope that isn't true. A buyer of stolen goods needs to accept that a consequence of it is that they could lose possession of said good. This is why for expensive goods, you should ensure you're not buying stolen goods.
Here in the Netherlands if you purchase something and cant reasonably know that it was stolen, then you become the legal owner.
It is logical that it works that way. Proving something is owned by someone else can be quite hard for certain items.
It is logical that it works that way. Proving something is owned by someone else can be quite hard for certain items.
This is the most useful advice: call the police non-emergency number, explain concisely, and ask them what to do.
A bunch of the other suggestions, here on HN Streetwise ProTips, can get self and/or friends beaten, stabbed, and/or arrested.
A bunch of the other suggestions, here on HN Streetwise ProTips, can get self and/or friends beaten, stabbed, and/or arrested.
IDK where you live but where I am, unless it's an actively life threatening emergency, the Police will say they're busy. I watched a drunk driver try to drive away after smashing into a parked car, ripping a wheel off the parked car. The drunk driver kept trying to start his car to get away. People called the police but they said they're busy. Fortunately his car was totaled and wouldn't start either. Over an hour later someone picked him up. If they can't even bother to deal with an active drunk driver, they aren't gonna help retrieve a bike.
Not saying confronting thieves is for everyone. But it's not necessarily as physical as you think.
Not saying confronting thieves is for everyone. But it's not necessarily as physical as you think.
> IDK where you live but where I am, unless it's an actively life threatening emergency, the Police will say they're busy.
Where I live the basic law/constitution establishes a protection duty of its citizens by the state (this includes their property). The police is one of the ways the state takes care of this duty. If the state is grossly negligent in this or even does nothing at all, the state may very well be on the hook to make the injured party whole. This responsibility is passed down and carried by individual police officers, and there have been cases of police officers being personally convicted of causing bodily harm for not dispatching a unit after a request for aid (despite them not personally swinging any punches)[1].
Generally you'll have police show up for near anything if they can.
[1] https://www.wz.de/panorama/nach-notruf-keine-streife-geschic...
Where I live the basic law/constitution establishes a protection duty of its citizens by the state (this includes their property). The police is one of the ways the state takes care of this duty. If the state is grossly negligent in this or even does nothing at all, the state may very well be on the hook to make the injured party whole. This responsibility is passed down and carried by individual police officers, and there have been cases of police officers being personally convicted of causing bodily harm for not dispatching a unit after a request for aid (despite them not personally swinging any punches)[1].
Generally you'll have police show up for near anything if they can.
[1] https://www.wz.de/panorama/nach-notruf-keine-streife-geschic...
In the US, it’s been established by the Supreme Court that the police have no duty to protect anyone. They can it they want to, and individual departments can make it a policy and fire officers who fail at it, but it’s not a fundamental requirement.
I live in Arlington, VA where I once saw a purse snatcher being chased by 5 cops. Only to have 3 more show up after the guy was on the ground. They all had their own cars too.
During COVID, I called the non emergency line police for a break in on my car parked on the street and the police showed up in minutes then searched the area frantically to see if the guy was still around.
I don’t know if they are over funded or just bored.
During COVID, I called the non emergency line police for a break in on my car parked on the street and the police showed up in minutes then searched the area frantically to see if the guy was still around.
I don’t know if they are over funded or just bored.
Sounds like you live in a crappy big city like SF, Oakland, Santa Clara, etc.
For the vast majority of people who live in reasonable cities, calling the police for something like that will get a timely response.
For the vast majority of people who live in reasonable cities, calling the police for something like that will get a timely response.
Please tell us the magical place you live in that has friendly, helpful police with time to investigate every crime.
Suburbs. We get 84 squad cars showing up for noise complaints...
Many larger cities don't have the budget to provide adequate police coverage. So you get this sort of "best effort" response.
This is made worse with recent years of "defund the police" policies creeping into some of our larger cities.
It just reinforces the Pro 2A community's saying - when seconds matter, help is just minutes away.
Many larger cities don't have the budget to provide adequate police coverage. So you get this sort of "best effort" response.
This is made worse with recent years of "defund the police" policies creeping into some of our larger cities.
It just reinforces the Pro 2A community's saying - when seconds matter, help is just minutes away.
Didn’t happen in the small North Carolina town that my parents live in, with a very similar situation as the parent. So truly, YMMV. Not all places can be generalized.
Santa Clara, population 110,000, is a big city to you?
Someone I know's phone was stolen. He tracked it using the track my phone feature to a house, and contacted the police asking the police to help get it back. The police said no, it's too dangerous, not worth it.
No, THE most useful advice is not to take legal advice from cops.
How do you think the police will give bad advice, if you call them up and ask what to do?
There are countless examples of police not knowing the law.
If you talk to them in person, it should be to get an idea of what they'll do, which may or may not have something to do with what's legal.
If you want legal advice, ask a lawyer with experience in the relevant area.
If you talk to them in person, it should be to get an idea of what they'll do, which may or may not have something to do with what's legal.
If you want legal advice, ask a lawyer with experience in the relevant area.
You don't want legal advice. You know where your stolen bike is, so you call the police. I think that's the usual process.
Probably they will verify that the bike is yours, and retrieve it, or they will say that they don't have the resources.
Are people imagining that the police will say that you can go take the bike, but then turn around and arrest you for theft?
Of course, if the police tell you "finders keepers; it's in the Constitution", then you can seek legal advice.
Probably they will verify that the bike is yours, and retrieve it, or they will say that they don't have the resources.
Are people imagining that the police will say that you can go take the bike, but then turn around and arrest you for theft?
Of course, if the police tell you "finders keepers; it's in the Constitution", then you can seek legal advice.
No. The police will offer you the option to come to the police station and fill out a report so you can get a police report number for your insurance claim. Nothing else will happen.
Police don’t usually investigate petty crimes.
Police don’t usually investigate petty crimes.
> Are people imagining that the police will say that you can go take the bike, but then turn around and arrest you for theft?
People are imagining the police will tell you that you can't steal it back, when legally you can.
After all, it's the police's job to keep the peace. And things are more peaceful if I'm not busting up thieves' hideouts all guns blazing like Rambo.
People are imagining the police will tell you that you can't steal it back, when legally you can.
After all, it's the police's job to keep the peace. And things are more peaceful if I'm not busting up thieves' hideouts all guns blazing like Rambo.
I’m also imagining the police telling you that you can do something that is actually illegal, and then you get prosecuted for it. “The cops said it was ok” may not be an adequate defense.
A cop telling you it's okay to do something, and then getting arrested for it, might be one of the only times you can correctly claim entrapment.
That's a reasonable suspicion (though I think a lot of the contrarian comments are just people who want to complain about the police).
Working with that suspicion, especially given that this is HN, police saying "don't go steal it back" might still be very good advice, regardless of legal right.
For example (referring back to a scenario earlier in thread), I'm imagining a techbro crew, all jumping into one of their Teslas, and rolling up on misguided urban youth turf.
There's already a lot of misunderstanding and animosity, both ways, between stereotypes. And someone's attempt at "show of force" just escalated it. So, who will escalate the stupid further, and stab or draw a gun first.
Working with that suspicion, especially given that this is HN, police saying "don't go steal it back" might still be very good advice, regardless of legal right.
For example (referring back to a scenario earlier in thread), I'm imagining a techbro crew, all jumping into one of their Teslas, and rolling up on misguided urban youth turf.
There's already a lot of misunderstanding and animosity, both ways, between stereotypes. And someone's attempt at "show of force" just escalated it. So, who will escalate the stupid further, and stab or draw a gun first.
They aren't even required to know the law.
> How do you think the police will give bad advice
the police will give you any advice, good or bad. They're not legally responsible for anything they said to you, as long as they're not telling you to commit a crime (in which case, if they did they will deny it).
You can still call 'em up of course - but don't 100% just trust their words blindly.
the police will give you any advice, good or bad. They're not legally responsible for anything they said to you, as long as they're not telling you to commit a crime (in which case, if they did they will deny it).
You can still call 'em up of course - but don't 100% just trust their words blindly.
At this point in the US, it seems we are far better off asking ChatGPT or Claude than the average police station.
Ages ago when I tried calling the police...
"We cannot answer legal questions, please seek a lawyer for advise."
I don't do anything terribly interesting, so this was almost certainly not an issue actually worth paying $200 for a lawyer to answer.
"We cannot answer legal questions, please seek a lawyer for advise."
I don't do anything terribly interesting, so this was almost certainly not an issue actually worth paying $200 for a lawyer to answer.
Depends on how well they do their job, it's not hard to imagine them saying "file a report" and then ignoring it.
It's probably a bad sign if you need permission from a desk clerk to get your property back.
It's great that you think _someone will handle that for you_ but it is probably a fantasy. Unfortunately you will probably need to self resolve. If you think it is going to escalate to violence, bring overwhelming force.
It's great that you think _someone will handle that for you_ but it is probably a fantasy. Unfortunately you will probably need to self resolve. If you think it is going to escalate to violence, bring overwhelming force.
This wouldn't be true in the UK, you can just take it back and use reasonable (which would be very light in the circumstances) force to do so.
The police won’t help you. It’s not their job.
I was in Singapore in 2013 and there was a big sign on a street saying:
Crime Alert
THEFT OF BICYCLE
AT THIS NEIGHBOURHOOD
ON 20 MARCH 2013 @ 7 AM
Witnesses, please call Tanglin Police Division
(phone number redacted)
Crime Alert
THEFT OF BICYCLE
AT THIS NEIGHBOURHOOD
ON 20 MARCH 2013 @ 7 AM
Witnesses, please call Tanglin Police Division
(phone number redacted)
Move, or elect better local politicians. Your city is broken.
we can't all live in Bedford Falls, and the police aren't there for the benefit of the every-person no matter where you live.
it's a nice bit of propaganda that they're there for us, but I urge anyone with that idea to seek out and research the history and origins of the modern police.
hint : in the US they first emerged as 'slave patrols', and then later modernized into 'industrial labor controls', and things weren't all that much better across the ocean in London with Sir Robert Peel and his version of the 'police service'.
it's a nice bit of propaganda that they're there for us, but I urge anyone with that idea to seek out and research the history and origins of the modern police.
hint : in the US they first emerged as 'slave patrols', and then later modernized into 'industrial labor controls', and things weren't all that much better across the ocean in London with Sir Robert Peel and his version of the 'police service'.
> the history and origins of the modern police
> in the US they first emerged as 'slave patrols'
> Sir Robert Peel and his version of the 'police service'
I assume that prior to the "modern" police, policing was still necessary, since there were lawbreakers and troublemakers since time immemorial. What do you regard as the substantive difference between the pre-modern police force and the modern? Did the former somehow serve "all of us" better than the latter?
> in the US they first emerged as 'slave patrols'
> Sir Robert Peel and his version of the 'police service'
I assume that prior to the "modern" police, policing was still necessary, since there were lawbreakers and troublemakers since time immemorial. What do you regard as the substantive difference between the pre-modern police force and the modern? Did the former somehow serve "all of us" better than the latter?
Typically law enforcement was DIY, done by a mob, or done at the behest/in the interest of a local strongman (king or lord).
That led to extremely selective enforcement at the best of times.
The idea of a professional, independent force that served the public and preferred formal laws was the innovation.
Previously you’d need to either deal with it yourself, or track down a local patron and hope they cared enough to assign some muscle to deal with it on your behalf - and didn’t favor the perp more. Think ‘Godfather’. In those cases, written law was rarely a priority either.
That led to extremely selective enforcement at the best of times.
The idea of a professional, independent force that served the public and preferred formal laws was the innovation.
Previously you’d need to either deal with it yourself, or track down a local patron and hope they cared enough to assign some muscle to deal with it on your behalf - and didn’t favor the perp more. Think ‘Godfather’. In those cases, written law was rarely a priority either.
Different local politicians won’t change the legal fact that the police have no obligation whatsoever to investigate or prevent crime. It’s simply not in the job description.
Err… what is their job, then, if not investigating and preventing crime? That pet theory with the slave patrols of yours, by the way, isn’t it; that’s a hoax. The modern police in the USA and other countries stems from the British police, which did exactly what they are supposed to do, since ages.
The police are the enforcement arm of the ownership class.
They apply the law as required to enforce the the socioeconomic order. This is why when people who aren’t custodians of land or cash flows ask them to investigate or solve crimes they rarely do.
The selective application of the law is how the current prerogatives of the ownership class are implemented in society.
This is why it’s illegal to do cocaine at work if you’re a poor person flipping burgers, but not if you’re an investment banker.
They apply the law as required to enforce the the socioeconomic order. This is why when people who aren’t custodians of land or cash flows ask them to investigate or solve crimes they rarely do.
The selective application of the law is how the current prerogatives of the ownership class are implemented in society.
This is why it’s illegal to do cocaine at work if you’re a poor person flipping burgers, but not if you’re an investment banker.
We need humans 2.0 for that to happen.
Better to get rid of the police and let people get actual justice themselves.
It depends on the city.
> Police to give out free air tag tracking devices to combat rise in stolen vehicles
https://www.princewilliamtimes.com/news/police-to-give-out-f...
> Police to give out free air tag tracking devices to combat rise in stolen vehicles
https://www.princewilliamtimes.com/news/police-to-give-out-f...
They will at best waste your time, and at worst they will cause you and your family harm for involving them. In Toronto even a stolen car is not enough to get their attention if you are not a high-profile business owner.
At best they will help you with stolen property, but that is rare.
Mythically rare. They're more likely to steal from you.
[deleted]
Please evidence this claim.
I know it’s false in the UK and I’d imagine it is false in any country where the law is based on UK law.
Failing to retrieve it at the time is going to mean losing it forever. If you find a crackhead with your phone and wait for someone else to retrieve it, that phone is long gone.
I know it’s false in the UK and I’d imagine it is false in any country where the law is based on UK law.
Failing to retrieve it at the time is going to mean losing it forever. If you find a crackhead with your phone and wait for someone else to retrieve it, that phone is long gone.
Some jurisdictions are great at protecting all the wrong people
Helpful knowledge, thanks!
the police often won't do anything
sneak(1)
So when both people think they have legally purchased it, they go back and forth stealing it?
Not everywhere. In Sweden that would be a crime (a little bit depending on what you mean left in the open).
In the Netherlands buying stolen goods is a crime. If you knew or could reasonably have known it was stolen (e.g. a bike with a broken lock, no keys and a low price) you risk a serious fine. If you didn't know it was stolen you just loose the goods. Technically you then have a claim on the seller, but of course you're not going to get anything.
So stealing your own thing back without the police involved may technically be illegal, but practically if the airtag tells you where your stolen bike is and you have the keys, skip the police and take it. Nothing will happen. The thief or their client is not going to call the police since that gets them arrested or fined.
Of course you can't go into the thief's house to retrieve your things. Then you do need to call the police first. But the one case I know about someone doing that for a stolen iPhone based on Find My app location, the police showed up quickly and arrested the thief + found lots of other stolen things in their possession.
So stealing your own thing back without the police involved may technically be illegal, but practically if the airtag tells you where your stolen bike is and you have the keys, skip the police and take it. Nothing will happen. The thief or their client is not going to call the police since that gets them arrested or fined.
Of course you can't go into the thief's house to retrieve your things. Then you do need to call the police first. But the one case I know about someone doing that for a stolen iPhone based on Find My app location, the police showed up quickly and arrested the thief + found lots of other stolen things in their possession.
What kind of anarcho-tyranny is that?
European countries sometimes have a rather repulsive legal system that provides far too much protection to perpetrators.
There is no concept in American Law of "acquiring stolen stuff legally".
If you buy something that was stolen, the original owner has the right to get it back without compensation to you.
If you buy something that was stolen, the original owner has the right to get it back without compensation to you.
[deleted]
Protection from what? No actions are taken against perpetrators' interests.
It makes sense to me... mostly. The person currently in possession might have purchased it from the thief so taking it from them leaves them in a hole, not the thief.
More broadly I think it does make a certain sort of sense that a theft should be resolved by the police. Find your item and want it back? Get the police involved. It's just that these days we're all so used the police being completely ineffectual that taking matters into your own hands is the only "sensible" solution.
More broadly I think it does make a certain sort of sense that a theft should be resolved by the police. Find your item and want it back? Get the police involved. It's just that these days we're all so used the police being completely ineffectual that taking matters into your own hands is the only "sensible" solution.
The logic is that the current possessor might have acquired the product bona fide and is not necessarily the thief. In order to assess this, you cannot repurpose the product yourself, but need the cops and court involved. It's the oppossite of anarcho-tyranny, it's a law favoring orderly and non-violent solutions of real world capitalist conundrums. Private repossession of stolen property in a 'bear arms' society... are accidents waiting to happen.
In reality things are not so stiff. My dads bag was stolen from the train. The thief was apprehended on the station. He got his bag back from the cops because it had identifiable information in it. Perhaps a bit light on evidence that the thief was not the owner, but it's not always overly complicated. I think the thief got the right nudge.
In reality things are not so stiff. My dads bag was stolen from the train. The thief was apprehended on the station. He got his bag back from the cops because it had identifiable information in it. Perhaps a bit light on evidence that the thief was not the owner, but it's not always overly complicated. I think the thief got the right nudge.
> the current possessor might have acquired the product bona fide and is not necessarily the thief. In order to assess this, you cannot repurpose the product yourself, but need the cops and court involved.
A fun thought experiment is that in the time you might have left your car parked in the street, it might be stolen, sold bona fide, then (by happenstance) parked in the same area, so one day you just go back to it and drive it away.
I guess in a more practical sense, you could claim that's (more or less) what happened after recovering your possessions after having them stolen... what would happen in that edge case?
A fun thought experiment is that in the time you might have left your car parked in the street, it might be stolen, sold bona fide, then (by happenstance) parked in the same area, so one day you just go back to it and drive it away.
I guess in a more practical sense, you could claim that's (more or less) what happened after recovering your possessions after having them stolen... what would happen in that edge case?
>acquired the product bona fide
Does not change anything. I mean poor guy, became a victim of a fraudster, but what does my bike have to do with it?
>you cannot repurpose the product yourself
This is not repurposing, this is its prevention.
>solutions of real world capitalist conundrums
There is no conundrums, it is pure tyranny.
Does not change anything. I mean poor guy, became a victim of a fraudster, but what does my bike have to do with it?
>you cannot repurpose the product yourself
This is not repurposing, this is its prevention.
>solutions of real world capitalist conundrums
There is no conundrums, it is pure tyranny.
Wait until you hear about Canada. The crown will ruin your life by dragging you through the courts for years for something like that, then drop the charges when it’s obvious they’re going to lose as to not set any precedent to be used against them in the future.
[deleted]
This is my experience as well. Most people don't want confrontation. I found my stolen bike when somebody was out riding it. I told them it was stolen from me, they said "OK" and handed it over. It was either them who stole it or they bought it suspiciously cheap and knew it was stolen.
There exists a small percentage of men who will go absolutely savage on somebody for stealing from them, and the existence of those people is probably a bigger crime deterrent than the police.
So I say, shine on you crazy air tag tracking vigilante diamonds.
So I say, shine on you crazy air tag tracking vigilante diamonds.
I don't want someone to put razor wire on their catalytic converters so that it slices thieves' fingers off. I do, however, wish to leave the impression with thieves that perhaps my catalytic converter is protected by insanity armor.
When I lived in California I wrapped a bunch of chain around the cat on my truck. Wasn't actually that secure but thieves see a ton of chain and padlocks and go "ehhhh keep moving."
Around the cat?
That must mean something different than I am imagining.
That must mean something different than I am imagining.
Those Persians look like fluffy dusters, but mess with a man's truck that one is guarding, and it'll flip out like a ninja angel of bloody vengeance.
When you buy a new F-150, a Persian guard cat is an even more essential add-on than a bed liner.
When you buy a new F-150, a Persian guard cat is an even more essential add-on than a bed liner.
If you live in a city, yeah maybe.
I have 3 removed cats in the toolbox of my truck, which I don’t lock, and neither they nor the truck have been touched.
I even loaned the truck out to a rando on Facebook marketplace when I gave a fridge away, for free. Truck and cats came back
I have 3 removed cats in the toolbox of my truck, which I don’t lock, and neither they nor the truck have been touched.
I even loaned the truck out to a rando on Facebook marketplace when I gave a fridge away, for free. Truck and cats came back
I think that in your eagerness to malign cities, you might have missed the joke.
Short for catalytic converter.
Off topic, but I was very pleased with how easy a catalytic converter shield was to install on my car. It’s normally sold and installed by a dealer, but if you have any semblance of DIY skill it’s straightforward.
Razor wire is called that because it looks like a razor.
The danger is about the pointy shape.
I'd be careful climbing it, if you fall/slip it's way worse than barbed wire. (Not sure how to do it tactically)
I don't think it's that unethical to put it around the cat if it's obvious. It might be a danger in an accident or something.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Razor_wire
The danger is about the pointy shape.
I'd be careful climbing it, if you fall/slip it's way worse than barbed wire. (Not sure how to do it tactically)
I don't think it's that unethical to put it around the cat if it's obvious. It might be a danger in an accident or something.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Razor_wire
> Not sure how to do it tactically
A mattress thrown over
A mattress thrown over
You'd think so, but America is the most armed country in the world and most of us have had something stolen. I think the overall sentiment is "I'm like 99% going to get away with this and pawn it for money" and they're right.
Single data point but I moved from the UK to the US 30 years ago and the prevalence of stuff being stolen is two orders of magnitude lower.
Not all AirTags exist within the US :)
There are other places? Really I just assumed he meant here because he mentioned people getting unnecessarily violent.
The US has a monopoly on people getting unnecessarily violent? That seems like a trope - projecting the stats of a few zip codes onto a very large and diverse nation.
“and most of us have had something stolen”
I’m not sure that’s accurate. It may be true in large cities, but most people don’t live in NY or SF.
Yeah - the closest stat I can find works out to fewer than 2% of people per year are theft victims.
[0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/191247/reported-larceny-....
I’m not sure that’s accurate. It may be true in large cities, but most people don’t live in NY or SF.
Yeah - the closest stat I can find works out to fewer than 2% of people per year are theft victims.
[0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/191247/reported-larceny-....
Given the average lifespan is ~80yrs then the average chance you've had something stolen over over say 40 years is much higher than 2%. It's 2% per year so ~45% for 30yrs and 55% for 40yrs?
You're assuming independence, almost certainly incorrectly.
meaning?
My point isn't that those number are exact. My point is 2% chance per year expands to a larger number over many years. So saying "most people have experienced theft" many not be that far off. 2% is 1 in 50 but 55% is more than 1 in 2. My personal experience is would be 10 or 11 in 55yrs depending on whether an attempt counts
bike, bike, bike, car radio, car radio, car radio, car, car radio, bike, camera/dashcam/kindle, attempt (broke window to check for loot but didn't find anything). Still cost $$$ to replace window so you could say my window was stolen.
Also I didn't just multiply by the number of years. The probably for 100yrs is 86% (not 100% and not 200%).
My point isn't that those number are exact. My point is 2% chance per year expands to a larger number over many years. So saying "most people have experienced theft" many not be that far off. 2% is 1 in 50 but 55% is more than 1 in 2. My personal experience is would be 10 or 11 in 55yrs depending on whether an attempt counts
bike, bike, bike, car radio, car radio, car radio, car, car radio, bike, camera/dashcam/kindle, attempt (broke window to check for loot but didn't find anything). Still cost $$$ to replace window so you could say my window was stolen.
Also I didn't just multiply by the number of years. The probably for 100yrs is 86% (not 100% and not 200%).
For most people, the chance they are a victim of theft (VOT) in year 1 is correlated to the chance they are a VOT in year 2. So the probability that they are a VOT at least once in those two years is NOT simply (1 - (1 - 2%)^2). That formula only works when the two events are independent, like two coin flips.
As an obviously extreme example, imagine a world where 98% the people live in zero-crime areas, and the rest live in places where they are robbed annually.
In such a world, the percentage of people who were a VOT in a single year would be 2%, and it would not rise as you broadened to multiple years. (The same 2% of people would be targeted over and over.)
This is all just a roundabout way of stating the unfortunate fact that some people live in bad areas.
I'm sorry to hear about your experience.
As an obviously extreme example, imagine a world where 98% the people live in zero-crime areas, and the rest live in places where they are robbed annually.
In such a world, the percentage of people who were a VOT in a single year would be 2%, and it would not rise as you broadened to multiple years. (The same 2% of people would be targeted over and over.)
This is all just a roundabout way of stating the unfortunate fact that some people live in bad areas.
I'm sorry to hear about your experience.
[deleted]
The events are not independent. Maybe the first time you leave your bike outside you learn that it will be stolen, and then you don't do that anymore, reducing your future risk.
yes, and that 2% per year average figure takes that into account. The percent for your life is higher. You got robbed, do something to make it go down, it gets lower. Over the course of the average life, it ends up at 2% per year. It's probably highest around 15 to 25yrs old (have possessions, get robbed, learn to do differently) and lower at the end (except for getting robbed by scams which often target the elderly)
newZWhoDis(3)
This is called an evolutionary stable strategy. (my favorite type of Nash equilibrium)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionarily_stable_strate...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionarily_stable_strate...
I totally believe this, but now I want to check my assumption. Can anyone offer pointers to supporting evidence or research on it? Thanks
A lot of those thiefs are not hardened criminals, because the payoff for this kind of crime is usually a small fraction of the actual value of the things stolen. Most of time it is the average wimpy addict and the reason he resort to this kind of criminal activity is preciselly because he is not ready for the violent potential of more profitable criminal activities.
If you relativelly fit, and have some experience with actual fights or training in martial arts, it is not that stupid to try to recover your stuff.
If you don't feel confortable with the prospect of any kind of violent confrontation or don't have the street smarts to evaluate the risk potential of saidconfrontation, you'd still have the hope that the police would do something anyway if you have the location of your goods.
Really, at some time we need to stop glorifying cowardice and reclaim a little bit of dignity.
If you relativelly fit, and have some experience with actual fights or training in martial arts, it is not that stupid to try to recover your stuff.
If you don't feel confortable with the prospect of any kind of violent confrontation or don't have the street smarts to evaluate the risk potential of saidconfrontation, you'd still have the hope that the police would do something anyway if you have the location of your goods.
Really, at some time we need to stop glorifying cowardice and reclaim a little bit of dignity.
>stop glorifying cowardice
I mostly agree. I don't think its cowardice most of the time though. Its that laws now favor criminals if you attempt to do anything yourself. Its become public policy that "rich" people buying things can simply absorb the loss and the police don't even have to do anything because no one bothers to report it. The police win because crime stats go down, thiefs win because they get the goods, the victim absorbs all the cost and if they try to do anything the victim goes to jail for whatever charges that made the police have to get up and work.
I mostly agree. I don't think its cowardice most of the time though. Its that laws now favor criminals if you attempt to do anything yourself. Its become public policy that "rich" people buying things can simply absorb the loss and the police don't even have to do anything because no one bothers to report it. The police win because crime stats go down, thiefs win because they get the goods, the victim absorbs all the cost and if they try to do anything the victim goes to jail for whatever charges that made the police have to get up and work.
Can I get a source on any of these claims?
Tbf, I am generally anti-police in the sense that they’re pretty institutionally bad at preventing or deterring crime in the current model, but I don’t really understand the argument you’re making here
Tbf, I am generally anti-police in the sense that they’re pretty institutionally bad at preventing or deterring crime in the current model, but I don’t really understand the argument you’re making here
Not a source (and I'm also not GP), but 'duty to retreat' laws exist even in many states in the US.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_retreat
Just google property crime + [any largeish US city] + reddit and youll find dozens of anecdotal stories from citizens.
Property crime seems to have essentially become a problem dealt with exclusively by citizens. Hell, SPD wouldnt even do anything to help when my car was stolen a few years ago. I got a call from the bar where it was abandoned and had to have it towed myself.
I think the argument GP was making was that of incentives. Police department have essentially zero incentive to devote time+manpower to petty theft or property crime, so the easiest solution is to simply encourage citizens to not 'resist' so to speak. If you get mugged, its a lot easier to deal with as a police officer if you simply hand them your wallet, vs starting a fist/knife/gun fight in the streets.
Just google property crime + [any largeish US city] + reddit and youll find dozens of anecdotal stories from citizens.
Property crime seems to have essentially become a problem dealt with exclusively by citizens. Hell, SPD wouldnt even do anything to help when my car was stolen a few years ago. I got a call from the bar where it was abandoned and had to have it towed myself.
I think the argument GP was making was that of incentives. Police department have essentially zero incentive to devote time+manpower to petty theft or property crime, so the easiest solution is to simply encourage citizens to not 'resist' so to speak. If you get mugged, its a lot easier to deal with as a police officer if you simply hand them your wallet, vs starting a fist/knife/gun fight in the streets.
I don't agree with citizenpaul
But I do know if you're a homeless drug addict and you commit a crime that makes the cops throw you in jail - that's three meals a day, somewhere warm to sleep, and no lost income because you didn't have any income.
Whereas if you're a member of the middle class and you commit the same crime and get thrown in the same jail? Mucho lost income, you can't pay your mortgage, you get fired for not showing up at work, and as a convict your employment prospects become much, much worse.
So a "rational" member of the middle class might opt not to fight a homeless drug addict over $500 simply because they've got a lot more to lose.
But I do know if you're a homeless drug addict and you commit a crime that makes the cops throw you in jail - that's three meals a day, somewhere warm to sleep, and no lost income because you didn't have any income.
Whereas if you're a member of the middle class and you commit the same crime and get thrown in the same jail? Mucho lost income, you can't pay your mortgage, you get fired for not showing up at work, and as a convict your employment prospects become much, much worse.
So a "rational" member of the middle class might opt not to fight a homeless drug addict over $500 simply because they've got a lot more to lose.
>that's three meals a day, somewhere warm to sleep
I don't know why people always parrot this like a fact. Plenty of prisons serve only two woefully inadequate meals a day (like, Fyre festival sandwich levels of inadequate) and prisons generally have atrocious climate control. In the southern states, they don't have air conditioning and it gets genuinely dangerous for the prisoners.
Some jurisdictions give the Warden a budget for feeding the prisoners, and any dollar they don't spend, they get to KEEP. This predictably results in malnourished prisoners, but Americans do not have the empathy to care most of the time.
I don't know why people always parrot this like a fact. Plenty of prisons serve only two woefully inadequate meals a day (like, Fyre festival sandwich levels of inadequate) and prisons generally have atrocious climate control. In the southern states, they don't have air conditioning and it gets genuinely dangerous for the prisoners.
Some jurisdictions give the Warden a budget for feeding the prisoners, and any dollar they don't spend, they get to KEEP. This predictably results in malnourished prisoners, but Americans do not have the empathy to care most of the time.
> any dollar they don't spend, they get to KEEP
I'd love a source on that.
I'd love a source on that.
I’ll give you a too-big-to-be-illegal example. Geogroup, now named CoreCivic. It’s the largest owner of private prisons and jails in the US. They, along with other private prison corporations, engage in far more corruption than just pocketing the extra change though. They actively lobby legislators for mandatory minimum sentences and other law changes so that America can continue to be a world leader in the highest percentage of prisoners per capita.
Their 2024 revenue was $2B.
Their 2024 revenue was $2B.
> Its that laws now favor criminals if you attempt to do anything yourself.
That just reads like a general "this is why I'm a coward" excuse.
Also what you want is spelled "It's".
That just reads like a general "this is why I'm a coward" excuse.
Also what you want is spelled "It's".
It’s a good excuse because it’s a fair description of why cowardice is rational in many western legal contexts.
> Really, at some time we need to stop glorifying cowardice and reclaim a little bit of dignity.
And getting into a physical fight with real injury potential because of an item?
If it is a cheap thing it is not worth it. If it is more expensive usually the law is on your side. Either way, there's no need for physical confrontation.
> the reason he resort to this kind of criminal activity is preciselly because he is not ready for the violent potential of more profitable criminal activities.
That's a gamble. What if the reason is that, although the thief _could_ be violent, they were smart enough to realize that they can get more results with less personal risk? In which case, your 'martial arts' training is meaningless when you have a knife or a bullet going through you.
And getting into a physical fight with real injury potential because of an item?
If it is a cheap thing it is not worth it. If it is more expensive usually the law is on your side. Either way, there's no need for physical confrontation.
> the reason he resort to this kind of criminal activity is preciselly because he is not ready for the violent potential of more profitable criminal activities.
That's a gamble. What if the reason is that, although the thief _could_ be violent, they were smart enough to realize that they can get more results with less personal risk? In which case, your 'martial arts' training is meaningless when you have a knife or a bullet going through you.
> Either way, there's no need for physical confrontation.
Nahh, you just outsource your physical confrontation to a cop. You still belief in confrontation for resolving the issues, you’re just being a coward and not doing it yourself.
Nahh, you just outsource your physical confrontation to a cop. You still belief in confrontation for resolving the issues, you’re just being a coward and not doing it yourself.
Which physical confrontations you handle yourself and which ones you outsource to police is a difficult question. The problem is not so much how you answer the question, but how many people in a large society will choose the "wrong" one.
And I think it's better not to refer to strangers on the internet as cowards. How would you feel if somebody responded to your opinion by calling you a name?
And I think it's better not to refer to strangers on the internet as cowards. How would you feel if somebody responded to your opinion by calling you a name?
"If you relativelly fit, and have some experience with actual fights or training in martial arts, it is not that stupid to try to recover your stuff."
Anyone with actual experience will tell you that no amount of training will save you from the lucky stab/shot/unknown. Sure, you might win 9/10 times, but is that worth it? Sometimes maybe, other times no. Usually it's better to notify police and let the system handle it. If you handle it yourself, the system in many jurisdictions will fuck you just as bad as the real criminal unless you actively witnessed it or were attacked first.
Anyone with actual experience will tell you that no amount of training will save you from the lucky stab/shot/unknown. Sure, you might win 9/10 times, but is that worth it? Sometimes maybe, other times no. Usually it's better to notify police and let the system handle it. If you handle it yourself, the system in many jurisdictions will fuck you just as bad as the real criminal unless you actively witnessed it or were attacked first.
It is actually pretty stupid to try to recover things.
I knew a guy that tried to stop someone from stealing his neighbor's car stereo.
He was extremely fit, young, and a fighter.
That didn't stop him from getting stabbed to death by the thief.
You can decide your life is worth a $100 car stereo, but I know mine is worth more than that.
I knew a guy that tried to stop someone from stealing his neighbor's car stereo.
He was extremely fit, young, and a fighter.
That didn't stop him from getting stabbed to death by the thief.
You can decide your life is worth a $100 car stereo, but I know mine is worth more than that.
For the individual, maybe. For the society as a whole we could with a little more people taking risks.
Being fit doesn’t do anything against a knife or a fire-gun, is not being a coward, it’a just the logical conclusion. The people who want to stay fit in order to potentially fight burglars/thieves are doing it wrong, they should train in either gun use or how to better handle a knife. And, of course, have an expensive lawyer at the ready in case something goes wrong and you actually get to physically hurt said thief/burglar.
> If you relativelly fit
Most people are not this
> have some experience with actual fights or training in martial arts
And significant amounts of people also have neither of these things. At the very least “martial arts” training is particularly unlikely.
I’m the only one I know in my circle with practical fight experience and it’s because I grew up in shitty places. That probably says more about the privileged area I now live, and the kinds of people it attract though to be fair.
Most people are not this
> have some experience with actual fights or training in martial arts
And significant amounts of people also have neither of these things. At the very least “martial arts” training is particularly unlikely.
I’m the only one I know in my circle with practical fight experience and it’s because I grew up in shitty places. That probably says more about the privileged area I now live, and the kinds of people it attract though to be fair.
Eh. Recognition that the state having a monopoly on violence is a better system than individuals exercising it isnt cowardice. This is one area where cops actually can and will do what you want them to, might as well let them if possible.
And yeah maybe any reasonable human can beat up most tweakers, but one could have a knife or gun. Even if that’s a 5% shot, my life is worth more than 20x my bike.
And yeah maybe any reasonable human can beat up most tweakers, but one could have a knife or gun. Even if that’s a 5% shot, my life is worth more than 20x my bike.
Really, at some time we need to stop glorifying cowardice and reclaim a little bit of dignity.
A lot of those thiefs are not hardened criminals
jmull(2)
I've been wanting exactly this for so long. I want to bury an AirTag in my luggage, backpack, etc. and never think about it again. In those scenarios, it doesn't _need_ to be tiny. I'd rather trade compactness for longevity.
However, an AirTag attached to my keys _should_ be small and it's easily accessible so I don't mind swapping the battery as needed.
However, an AirTag attached to my keys _should_ be small and it's easily accessible so I don't mind swapping the battery as needed.
I fully expect Apple to release the airTag in different form factors. They can then also sell a whole bunch of new accessories. A 'pen' form factor with replaceable AAAA battery might be perfect for myself.
Another useful form factor would be the battery itself. Replace one of your AAAs with an AAAirTag, albeit at the expense of some mAh.
This is really a non-issue. Your phone literally tells you when the tag's battery is low. I'd rather do that once every 365 days than having to carry 2 AA batteries for 365 days/year.
Right, it’s all about the specific use case. Some more…
- These are going to be huge with boats and canoes
- Toolboxes owned by professional builders, carpenters, plumbers
- Important crates in self-storage centers.
- Museums
- Film sets (think big $200k cameras)
- These are going to be huge with boats and canoes
- Toolboxes owned by professional builders, carpenters, plumbers
- Important crates in self-storage centers.
- Museums
- Film sets (think big $200k cameras)
In all seriousness, if I put an Airtag on my $6k bike and it was stolen and it showed where it was. I'd be getting that bike back and not worrying too much about a confrontation.
Worst case scenario I report it to police directly and it tells them exactly where it is.
If something is stolen, if I don't know where it is that makes the problem 10x worse. At the very least the airtag shows where that item is (unless it has been found and thrown away).
Worst case scenario I report it to police directly and it tells them exactly where it is.
If something is stolen, if I don't know where it is that makes the problem 10x worse. At the very least the airtag shows where that item is (unless it has been found and thrown away).
My experience of an airtag on my stolen $300 bike was that the tag showed up in a location the cops told me was about a block away from a notorious chop shop in the city. I just sighed and bought a new bike.
$300 I probably wouldn't bother, but a pricey bike I absolutely would or better yet get insurance
[deleted]
Maybe a stinky bike lock like this would be better protection for a bike.
https://skunklock.com/
https://skunklock.com/
> Worst case scenario I report it to police directly and it tells them exactly where it is.
Yes, and then wait 6 months for the police to get around to picking it up ...
Yes, and then wait 6 months for the police to get around to picking it up ...
They will never get around to it. They don't even pursue stolen cars.
When you say "they" I assume you are talking about your police department and not perhaps a department in another location or country?
Not sure what type of mad max world you live in.
Toronto & NYC
Welp, perhaps demand better from your elected officials.
I live in a town. A few years ago, I had my car broken into with my bag and laptop stolen. Cops took fingerprints and forensics, found a match in a database, visited the suspect, arrested him (as he couldn't explain why his fingerprints was in my car), searched, found, and reclaimed my property.
I live in a town. A few years ago, I had my car broken into with my bag and laptop stolen. Cops took fingerprints and forensics, found a match in a database, visited the suspect, arrested him (as he couldn't explain why his fingerprints was in my car), searched, found, and reclaimed my property.
I had a bunch of equipment stolen from a car in Mountain View and the lazy cops just dropped the case.
Those guys probably went on to steal more shit from someone else.
Those guys probably went on to steal more shit from someone else.
Well I'd rather be able to file a report with a location and proof of purchase than filing a report without having a single clue where it is
It only complains once that the battery is low and never again, I've run into a dead battery when searching for an AirTag multiple times.
This has not been my experience. I’ve had multiple AirTags notify me multiple times over a period of months that I needed to change the batteries.
So last week my keys AirTag was dead, and I checked my notifications and I only received one notification in October that it had a low battery, but to be fair, I don't know exactly when it died between October and last week.
Maybe my batteries die completely before the second notification triggers.
Maybe my batteries die completely before the second notification triggers.
How do you check historic notifications?
I never dismiss them, so there's a huge pile on my phone.
Notifications can be collapsed!
https://developer.apple.com/documentation/cloudkit/cksubscri...
https://developer.apple.com/documentation/cloudkit/cksubscri...
My ADHD brain would fall apart.
Maybe they need an option for people like you called "smoke detector mode" where it starts to annoyingly beep once a minute.
Dear god please no. The kind of people who don't notice empty batteries also don't notice the annoying beeps. But I do.
Apartment living can be hell when there are neighbours who don't replace their smoke detector batteries. I can't fathom how people can sleep through this loud annoying chirp every thirty seconds. I certainly find it hard and my apartment is far enough away that it's hard to determine where exactly the chirp is coming from.
The thought of smoke-detector like beeping of airtags all over the place gives me the worst kind of creeps. Please don't give them ideas! Please!
Apartment living can be hell when there are neighbours who don't replace their smoke detector batteries. I can't fathom how people can sleep through this loud annoying chirp every thirty seconds. I certainly find it hard and my apartment is far enough away that it's hard to determine where exactly the chirp is coming from.
The thought of smoke-detector like beeping of airtags all over the place gives me the worst kind of creeps. Please don't give them ideas! Please!
That's easy to fix. Just carry a pocket full of 2032s, and offer to swap out the beeping tags near you. For a small nominal fee, of course. Or just for free for the sake of humanity or just your own sanity.
Haha, sure. Or full vigilante style
I take ownership of the fact that I didn't change the battery when prompted. I only stated that in my experience it's a single notification vs the other folks saying they get notified multiple times.
Maybe you only get a second notification if you dismiss the first?
That's a fair point. I'll try to remember to dismiss next time and see.
maybe the "like you" was a little more pointed than intended but it was meant more as the royal you.
I read somewhere that the AirTag doesn’t actually know whether it’s low on battery or not. The alert is just triggered after a preprogrammed time.
This is easy to test. Just remove the battery after the warning, then put it back and check if it complains rightaway.
In my experience with different kinds of batteries, from the cheapest to the more expensive ones, the AirTag holds between 3 and 9 months until it starts warning about battery, so what you’ve read does not line up with my experience.
You could try to get the police to do it, but that's going to take more time, during which the thief is even more likely to ditch the AirTag.
During the most recent American election I saw at least three news stories on television about campaign sign thieves being tracked down through the use of AirTags put in one of the signs. To my surprise, in each case the police were right there, and in two of the cases, the signs were still loaded in the thieves' cars. So it does seem to work.
Anyway, you're really swimming upstream trying to think of aigtags as an antitheft device.
They aren't anti-theft devices as in padlocks. But the more often that thieves start wondering if the thing they're taking might have an AirTag in it, they might start reconsidering some of the petty thefts.
It's like a surveillance camera. A camera, itself, can't stop a crime. But the possibility that someone's watching can act as a mild deterrent.
During the most recent American election I saw at least three news stories on television about campaign sign thieves being tracked down through the use of AirTags put in one of the signs. To my surprise, in each case the police were right there, and in two of the cases, the signs were still loaded in the thieves' cars. So it does seem to work.
Anyway, you're really swimming upstream trying to think of aigtags as an antitheft device.
They aren't anti-theft devices as in padlocks. But the more often that thieves start wondering if the thing they're taking might have an AirTag in it, they might start reconsidering some of the petty thefts.
It's like a surveillance camera. A camera, itself, can't stop a crime. But the possibility that someone's watching can act as a mild deterrent.
Aren't the news stories subject to survivorship bias though? They wouldn't be as likely to report a boring "sign stolen, thief unknown" story.
Aren't the news stories subject to survivorship bias though? They wouldn't be as likely to report a boring "sign stolen, thief unknown" story.
Not really. "Survivorship bias" is just the HN cliché of the quarter, and doesn't apply in nearly as many situations as posters on this forum would like.
There were plenty of other stories of campaign signs being stolen, both in the most recent election, and in previous ones. I'd call it more "perception bias." You only know about the AirTag campaign signs stories because you're viewing it through the lens of HN, and not a broader view of media coverage of the issue.
Not really. "Survivorship bias" is just the HN cliché of the quarter, and doesn't apply in nearly as many situations as posters on this forum would like.
There were plenty of other stories of campaign signs being stolen, both in the most recent election, and in previous ones. I'd call it more "perception bias." You only know about the AirTag campaign signs stories because you're viewing it through the lens of HN, and not a broader view of media coverage of the issue.
"Altruistic punishment in humans" - https://www.nature.com/articles/415137a
It's good for society, and (in the evolutionary equilibrium) results in massively reduced defection, if people are willing to take on high risk to aggressively punish defectors.
It's good for society, and (in the evolutionary equilibrium) results in massively reduced defection, if people are willing to take on high risk to aggressively punish defectors.
>stuck on the plot holes in the motivating story... How long would a thief really keep the AirTag anyway?
you discover something has been stolen (or lost), and not knowing exactly when it happened but curious about that too, you immediately try to look up where it was last seen and if it's still tracking. What's the problem with that scenario, sounds perfectly reasonable.
he wants the long battery not because the thief is going to carry it around for 10 years, but simply so that it will more likely to be charged and location tracking at the time it is stolen from the owner.
you discover something has been stolen (or lost), and not knowing exactly when it happened but curious about that too, you immediately try to look up where it was last seen and if it's still tracking. What's the problem with that scenario, sounds perfectly reasonable.
he wants the long battery not because the thief is going to carry it around for 10 years, but simply so that it will more likely to be charged and location tracking at the time it is stolen from the owner.
> so that it will more likely to be charged and location tracking at the time it is stolen
Unless you're ignoring/suppressing the low battery notifications for months, that's already overwhelmingly likely.
Unless you're ignoring/suppressing the low battery notifications for months, that's already overwhelmingly likely.
i don't like changing the batteries in my smoke detectors. it's too frequent. they remind me, it doesn't go unnoticed, it's not that they are inadvertently running out, i don't like doing it, every time is too frequently
in the story the guy told, his batteries were dead; he wishes they weren't. People are allowed to have different preferences, it's not a plot hole in the story.
in the story the guy told, his batteries were dead; he wishes they weren't. People are allowed to have different preferences, it's not a plot hole in the story.
Re: changing batteries.
- To change a battery, you need to not only see the notification but also be physically proximal to the device and have a fresh battery available. It can take some time to meet all these conditions and sometimes you simply forget.
- A single air tag only needs the battery replaced roughly every six months. However, the rate of replacements increases as you are managing more air tags. It's easy to be replacing a battery every few weeks.
- Replacement fatigue is a thing. At some point, we just get lazy.
I keep my BBQ on my front patio, directly in front of my battery-powered Ring camera. The battery on that camera needs to be recharged and replaced every two months. I try to get to it as quickly as I can - ideally during the low-battery state and before the battery dies completely. One time, however, I got lazy/forgot. Two days after the battery died, my BBQ was stolen.
Re: antitheft device
You're right. Apple markets AirTags for recovering lost items, not stolen ones. Nevertheless, they can be very effective for recovering stolen items. My local police department will aid in recovering stolen property. If the item has an AirTag that pings a location, an officer will investigate. In the case of my BBQ, the officer was willing to look for it same-day but, alas, I did not have an AirTag on it.
This product actually helps as it effectively hides the air tag. This makes it less likely that a thief would find and discard the airtag. They'd only be looking for it if their iPhone notifies them and, even then, they may not be able to discriminate which item contains the tag. Best case scenario: they discard the entire stolen unit, keeping the air tag with it.
- To change a battery, you need to not only see the notification but also be physically proximal to the device and have a fresh battery available. It can take some time to meet all these conditions and sometimes you simply forget.
- A single air tag only needs the battery replaced roughly every six months. However, the rate of replacements increases as you are managing more air tags. It's easy to be replacing a battery every few weeks.
- Replacement fatigue is a thing. At some point, we just get lazy.
I keep my BBQ on my front patio, directly in front of my battery-powered Ring camera. The battery on that camera needs to be recharged and replaced every two months. I try to get to it as quickly as I can - ideally during the low-battery state and before the battery dies completely. One time, however, I got lazy/forgot. Two days after the battery died, my BBQ was stolen.
Re: antitheft device
You're right. Apple markets AirTags for recovering lost items, not stolen ones. Nevertheless, they can be very effective for recovering stolen items. My local police department will aid in recovering stolen property. If the item has an AirTag that pings a location, an officer will investigate. In the case of my BBQ, the officer was willing to look for it same-day but, alas, I did not have an AirTag on it.
This product actually helps as it effectively hides the air tag. This makes it less likely that a thief would find and discard the airtag. They'd only be looking for it if their iPhone notifies them and, even then, they may not be able to discriminate which item contains the tag. Best case scenario: they discard the entire stolen unit, keeping the air tag with it.
> physically proximal to the device and have a fresh battery available
I think it's also worth saying, these batteries aren't the standard AA batteries most people on hand, they're 2032 (I believe? or 2025) "quarter batteries" which isn't something a lot of people just keep around. So in addition to being physically proximal, once they've figured out how to open it up and being surprised by the "weird battery," they've also got to remember which it was when presented with a wall of similar looking "quarter batteries" at the store (see: my lack of assurity even having previously replaced these).
I think it's also worth saying, these batteries aren't the standard AA batteries most people on hand, they're 2032 (I believe? or 2025) "quarter batteries" which isn't something a lot of people just keep around. So in addition to being physically proximal, once they've figured out how to open it up and being surprised by the "weird battery," they've also got to remember which it was when presented with a wall of similar looking "quarter batteries" at the store (see: my lack of assurity even having previously replaced these).
> hey're 2032 (I believe? or 2025) "quarter batteries" which isn't something a lot of people just keep around.
This might be slightly tangent but I used to think that. Except now I have a kid. Do you have any idea how many crazy weird battery sizes some of these new toys take? I think I now have like 4 or 5 different sized button batteries in my inventory.
"Back in my day" everything was either AA, C or D. These days, that isn't the case anymore. Only "big things" take "big batteries" like AA->D or they have a few built-in 18650's and a generic charger onboard.
This might be slightly tangent but I used to think that. Except now I have a kid. Do you have any idea how many crazy weird battery sizes some of these new toys take? I think I now have like 4 or 5 different sized button batteries in my inventory.
"Back in my day" everything was either AA, C or D. These days, that isn't the case anymore. Only "big things" take "big batteries" like AA->D or they have a few built-in 18650's and a generic charger onboard.
> which isn't something a lot of people just keep around
Surely it's something that airtag owners keep around in bulk? I don't have any airtags/tiles/etc, but I can't imagine owning just one. As soon as I have one, I might as well have 6 or 12. If I'm replacing 2*n batteries per year, even if n is just 2 or 3, I'm buying these things in bulk!
Surely it's something that airtag owners keep around in bulk? I don't have any airtags/tiles/etc, but I can't imagine owning just one. As soon as I have one, I might as well have 6 or 12. If I'm replacing 2*n batteries per year, even if n is just 2 or 3, I'm buying these things in bulk!
Come to latam and you'll see some intense confrontation when something gets stolen. I was in a hostel when someone broke into lockers and they tracked him to the a bus station and got all their stuff back + dude in handcuffs to police station.
I searched Google maps for Latam but could only find an airline. Where is this?
Latin America
> They're really for something lost, not stolen. Generally, they are specifically designed to not work well in adversarial situations.
What you do with that information is a whole other topic outside this scope.
I've recovered or helped recover several stolen items located with an AirTag and I'll keep on buying them as long as they're good for both.
So far in the cases I've been involved, the thief wasn't aware of the AirTag. In some cases, they had iPhones on them. I'm not sure why they did not get an "AirTag is following you" notification, or why they ignored it.
I'll explain why I want this.
I don't use the Apple ecosystem as my primary, but I do have a bunch of tags I use in different cases for different items. Some of my items are things like motorsports vehicles or trailers and other things that are around but often out of sight.
If something were to go missing I may not notice immediately. It also seems the batteries in AirTags die faster in areas where climate control isn't the norm. Changing these out every year is a pain because some are hidden in areas that aren't easy to get to.
I hope these work well. And I was pleasantly surprised by the price point. Already ordered!
Also... I already own ElevationLabs Surface Mounts that I use and they are well made products. I love finding brands like this because it's not the norm on outlets like Amazon anymore. So when I find a good product I'm more than happy to keep buying their products, the premium is worth it.
I don't use the Apple ecosystem as my primary, but I do have a bunch of tags I use in different cases for different items. Some of my items are things like motorsports vehicles or trailers and other things that are around but often out of sight.
If something were to go missing I may not notice immediately. It also seems the batteries in AirTags die faster in areas where climate control isn't the norm. Changing these out every year is a pain because some are hidden in areas that aren't easy to get to.
I hope these work well. And I was pleasantly surprised by the price point. Already ordered!
Also... I already own ElevationLabs Surface Mounts that I use and they are well made products. I love finding brands like this because it's not the norm on outlets like Amazon anymore. So when I find a good product I'm more than happy to keep buying their products, the premium is worth it.
I've had AirTags in my luggage that seemed ok, but the batteries died mid-trip which was somewhat suboptimal. Longer battery life seems like a good selling point vs. replacing those annoying CR2032 before every trip.
I've _lost_ several AirTags, because I couldn't be bothered to manage their battery life and I no longer have any idea where they are…
We put AirTags in road cases/Pelican flight cases packed with AV/IT equipment. Pelican makes a stick-on AirTag holder that works well.
We’ve found the AirTags work just as well as LTE/4G GPS trackers —- with no-ongoing costs, better battery life (we get 6-9 months on the AirTags, 4-6 weeks on the GPS trackers), and AirTags are 1/5 the cost of an LTE tracker.
This product would work well for us.
We’ve found the AirTags work just as well as LTE/4G GPS trackers —- with no-ongoing costs, better battery life (we get 6-9 months on the AirTags, 4-6 weeks on the GPS trackers), and AirTags are 1/5 the cost of an LTE tracker.
This product would work well for us.
> Why didn't they replace the battery when the app complained?
because life gets in the way. You have a bunch of batteries and forget where you put them, or you walk inside and get distracted.
I have a tag in my suitcase, which is/has run out of battery. I dont use it that often, so I should really replace it. but I have forgotten.
because life gets in the way. You have a bunch of batteries and forget where you put them, or you walk inside and get distracted.
I have a tag in my suitcase, which is/has run out of battery. I dont use it that often, so I should really replace it. but I have forgotten.
> If the thief did keep the AirTag and you tracked them down, then what?
We recently recovered a laptop simply because it was tracked. Took the location to the police and they did the rest. It’s most definitely an anti-theft device in my case
We recently recovered a laptop simply because it was tracked. Took the location to the police and they did the rest. It’s most definitely an anti-theft device in my case
I have an AirTag, and no iphone. I used my wife's tablet to set it up. I don't think I will get timely battery alerts from it because I'm not bought in to the apple ecosystem fully.
In fact IIRC the first thing that happened when AirTags were announced were a bunch of concerns that surreptitious AirTags were usable as stalking devices and this seems to bring that concern up again.
You’d be surprised how dumb people are, many don’t even know what they are or look like.
Air Tags are also concealable, and on my backpack I have one inside the strap. You can’t tell it is there.
Air Tags are also concealable, and on my backpack I have one inside the strap. You can’t tell it is there.
> Why didn't they replace the battery when the app complained?
Many people routinely clear out all notifications due to the noise, and Find My notifications are part of that.
Many people routinely clear out all notifications due to the noise, and Find My notifications are part of that.
without commenting on the rest of it, i can share anecdotally that i currently have 3 dead airtags that i have been procrastinating updating the batteries on
I’ve had home sensors warn me of dead batteries for two years and I’m too lazy to replace them. I’d kick myself if something happened
i wish police do honey trap more often like put expensive equipment. That will definitely reduce lot of crimes.
Didn't that work well with car theft? I believe reading something like that
https://mndaily.com/190563/uncategorized/minneapolis-police-...
It's a thing in Minneapolis, though the Kia Boys thing was still very real here, I don't know how much they've kept it up.
It's a thing in Minneapolis, though the Kia Boys thing was still very real here, I don't know how much they've kept it up.
Well they're blaming the cars for being too easy to steal and not the thieves, so it's not going well
The cars are objectively too easy to steal. Kia made several outright stupid design choices and decided not to spend $100 on BoM to use a tried and tested immobilizer that genuinely helps prevent car theft. They also put the key barrel switches in a location very easy to access, rather than deep in the guts of the steering wheel shaft like most manufacturers.
Kia tried to save itself a few bucks by drastically reducing their product's security. The fact that other cars aren't being stolen at nearly the same rate is itself good evidence that the thieves are just opportunists.
Kia tried to save itself a few bucks by drastically reducing their product's security. The fact that other cars aren't being stolen at nearly the same rate is itself good evidence that the thieves are just opportunists.
Some people leave their keys in the sun shade. They don't complain it's too easy to steal. At some point you have to admit it's a social problem.
order results from consequences. it's ok if you want to be timid, but don't shame others for helping restore order.
Is fear of punishment the main reason you aren't out there stealing the things you want and killing those who get in your way?
For many people, especially from some terrible cultures I've personally met, the odds of being punished are really the only deterrent.
[deleted]
Yes
interesting. the concept of that's not yours and is actually someone else's isn't the most compelling reason? very interesting
That concept encompasses a ton of gray area. For example, did the ancestors of the person you are stealing from enslave your ancestors? Or more simply, are you or your children going to go hungry?
At the limit, the rule is always might makes right. Until then, the question is how much are you willing to give up to re-order the status quo? (A reordering that may or may not end up in your favor)
At the limit, the rule is always might makes right. Until then, the question is how much are you willing to give up to re-order the status quo? (A reordering that may or may not end up in your favor)
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. You're saying a double negative makes a right? Vengeance is mine sayeth you?
Almost everyone can be put into a situation where they rationalize a “negative” into a not negative, most easily visible in cases in which the item being disputed is a scarce resource essential to survival.
> the concept of that's not yours and is actually someone else's isn't the most compelling reason?
At its core, this concept is more of a truce where multiple parties agree that the costs of physical violence are not worth it, because the alternative is more acceptable. Hence the saying that “society is only 3 or 6 or 9 meals away from revolution”.
> the concept of that's not yours and is actually someone else's isn't the most compelling reason?
At its core, this concept is more of a truce where multiple parties agree that the costs of physical violence are not worth it, because the alternative is more acceptable. Hence the saying that “society is only 3 or 6 or 9 meals away from revolution”.
[deleted]
I'm a decent person, so no. But most crime is committed by a minority of scumbags who require consequences.
jmull(1)
This "just let people steal your stuff, it's not worth pursuing" logic is fine for some, not fine for others.
Also, thieves are dumb. Don't expect them to find all the tracking devices in minutes.
Also, thieves are dumb. Don't expect them to find all the tracking devices in minutes.
> A confrontation has a fairly high chance to have a worse result than losing some equipment.
Maybe. I agree it's a risk I'd ask myself more than a few times if I'm willing to take these days, but in my youth and when I was less economically secure I never had a problem taking matters like these into my own hands.
Every time I've tracked down a stolen item (phones were the most common with early tracking apps, but before that I've gone after stolen bikes, Discmans, etc.) the thief simply gave up the item without so much as a verbal altercation. The surprise that someone was crazy enough to call them on their bullshit was enough to shock them into just complying. Perhaps some shame as well, I'm not certain.
This has been true since my early teen days when I worked for a small retail store where the owner was way crazier than I ever have been. He took me along on some "repo" trips where folks had written bad checks against expensive items. These were generally in bad neighborhoods and I was certain he was going to get shot - but he never did. Some yelling was the most I witnessed and every time we got the items in question back safe and sound - usually with the person in question helping to load them into the truck.
I'd probably still track an item down and knock on someone's door if I was confident it was the correct location. These days it's basically your only recourse, and despite the relatively minor economic loss vs. my income at this point in my life I think it's important for societal reasons. When everyone simply gives up and lets the criminals and petty thieves "win" without so much as challenging on them, society rapidly crumbles. Relying on law enforcement is a last resort, even though the modern day take is they are the front line response. We see how well that is going. Poorly.
If I owned a retail shop I'd also confront any shoplifters and back up any of my staff who decided to do the same themselves. I understand this might end up costing me more money and make insurance difficult. Punishing such behavior for "liability" reasons is utterly asinine. It should be rewarded, but not encouraged or forced on employees by ownership. When I stopped shoplifters in the 90's at the shops I worked at, it wasn't because I thought my low pay was worth the personal risk. I did it because it was the right thing to do and I knew the owners had my back if anything bad happened. Firing clerks for giving a damn about society is one of my huge pet peeves of modern life. And yes, I am well aware of the risk and horrible outcomes that rarely happen in such situations.
So tldr; I see it as a duty to society to make an attempt at challenging these things for myself and friends that ask for help. Yes, that does incur some personal risk to my safety that cannot be squared with the economic reward. It's a tradeoff I, and others, have calculated for ourselves.
It's utterly corrosive to actual hard working folks doing the right thing to be forced to watch some asshole professional thief push out a cart full of power tools from Home Depot. Knowing full well that they would be fired if they so much got in the way of the cart. It's ridiculous we've normalized such things and justified it with the liability fairy. The executive class has entirely failed society on this point. If someone wants to take on the personal risk, the response should be high praise - not punishment. You get more of what you incentivize.
Maybe. I agree it's a risk I'd ask myself more than a few times if I'm willing to take these days, but in my youth and when I was less economically secure I never had a problem taking matters like these into my own hands.
Every time I've tracked down a stolen item (phones were the most common with early tracking apps, but before that I've gone after stolen bikes, Discmans, etc.) the thief simply gave up the item without so much as a verbal altercation. The surprise that someone was crazy enough to call them on their bullshit was enough to shock them into just complying. Perhaps some shame as well, I'm not certain.
This has been true since my early teen days when I worked for a small retail store where the owner was way crazier than I ever have been. He took me along on some "repo" trips where folks had written bad checks against expensive items. These were generally in bad neighborhoods and I was certain he was going to get shot - but he never did. Some yelling was the most I witnessed and every time we got the items in question back safe and sound - usually with the person in question helping to load them into the truck.
I'd probably still track an item down and knock on someone's door if I was confident it was the correct location. These days it's basically your only recourse, and despite the relatively minor economic loss vs. my income at this point in my life I think it's important for societal reasons. When everyone simply gives up and lets the criminals and petty thieves "win" without so much as challenging on them, society rapidly crumbles. Relying on law enforcement is a last resort, even though the modern day take is they are the front line response. We see how well that is going. Poorly.
If I owned a retail shop I'd also confront any shoplifters and back up any of my staff who decided to do the same themselves. I understand this might end up costing me more money and make insurance difficult. Punishing such behavior for "liability" reasons is utterly asinine. It should be rewarded, but not encouraged or forced on employees by ownership. When I stopped shoplifters in the 90's at the shops I worked at, it wasn't because I thought my low pay was worth the personal risk. I did it because it was the right thing to do and I knew the owners had my back if anything bad happened. Firing clerks for giving a damn about society is one of my huge pet peeves of modern life. And yes, I am well aware of the risk and horrible outcomes that rarely happen in such situations.
So tldr; I see it as a duty to society to make an attempt at challenging these things for myself and friends that ask for help. Yes, that does incur some personal risk to my safety that cannot be squared with the economic reward. It's a tradeoff I, and others, have calculated for ourselves.
It's utterly corrosive to actual hard working folks doing the right thing to be forced to watch some asshole professional thief push out a cart full of power tools from Home Depot. Knowing full well that they would be fired if they so much got in the way of the cart. It's ridiculous we've normalized such things and justified it with the liability fairy. The executive class has entirely failed society on this point. If someone wants to take on the personal risk, the response should be high praise - not punishment. You get more of what you incentivize.
I have some sympathy for your argument, but I think you are fundamentally misunderstanding the power dynamic between citizens and criminals.
Some of the petty thieves will think twice if they hear about other thieves getting beat up. Many of them will simply respond with violence.
Look at Latin American countries where thieves will shoot you dead for an iPhone.
The bicycle thieves are going to steal no matter what. They have to score their next hit. Better that they can do that armed only with an angle grinder rather than a pistol, too.
And if someone decides to turn a bicycle theft into a murder, well, the bicycle thief can usually "live off the land" much easier than you can. When you are used to living on the street and all you need is your next hit, it's much harder to catch you for murder, even if you can be identified.
In a fight where you have more to lose, are an order of magnitude more likely to be held accountable, and your opponent is irrational, effectively anonymous, and probably more practiced in violence than you, escalation seems unfavorable even if it leaves you with a shitty feeling.
Some of the petty thieves will think twice if they hear about other thieves getting beat up. Many of them will simply respond with violence.
Look at Latin American countries where thieves will shoot you dead for an iPhone.
The bicycle thieves are going to steal no matter what. They have to score their next hit. Better that they can do that armed only with an angle grinder rather than a pistol, too.
And if someone decides to turn a bicycle theft into a murder, well, the bicycle thief can usually "live off the land" much easier than you can. When you are used to living on the street and all you need is your next hit, it's much harder to catch you for murder, even if you can be identified.
In a fight where you have more to lose, are an order of magnitude more likely to be held accountable, and your opponent is irrational, effectively anonymous, and probably more practiced in violence than you, escalation seems unfavorable even if it leaves you with a shitty feeling.
My $2 version:
https://img.alicdn.com/bao/uploaded/i3/278427340/O1CN01LBluO...
https://img.alicdn.com/bao/uploaded/i3/278427340/O1CN01qLKoY...
https://img.alicdn.com/imgextra/i4/4611686018427384736/O1CN0...
https://img.alicdn.com/imgextra/i1/4611686018427381970/O1CN0...
The airtag case doesn't have a gap large enough to allow a regular wire to pass through. I guess you'd need to drill the cover, or just discard the cover and use tape. Then you could use one of these dummy batteries:
https://www.aliexpress.us/w/wholesale-cr2032-dummy.html
https://www.aliexpress.us/w/wholesale-cr2032-dummy.html
is that a purchasable product? link? Thank you in advance!
That white clock looks cool. What's the name?
Just in case you're looking for the exact model, it's: LYWSD02MMC
Looks like Xiaomi Mi Temperature and Humidity Monitor Pro.
I have a dozen of those style temperature gauges all over my house. Mine are actually a slightly smaller, square version. You can use Home Assistant to read the Bluetooth temperature and humidity readings from them. They ended up costing maybe $3 each when buying several at a time. Battery tends to last a bit over a year.
Nice solution, but the bigger problem is how AirTags can basically be turned off, which makes it poor for many use cases.
Of course, I get it from Apple's perspective, they dont want AirTags to be used to tail others. However, that precludes it from being used for theft tracking.
For example, I use an AirTag on my bicycle. If someone steals the bicycle, they are literally informed "an air tag is following you" https://support.apple.com/en-us/119874
There are a lot of things I'd love to put long-term AirTags on (luggage, snow-blower, childrens' backpacks) but if theft isnt really deterred, then the case for a bulkier AirTag is quite reduced.
Of course, I get it from Apple's perspective, they dont want AirTags to be used to tail others. However, that precludes it from being used for theft tracking.
For example, I use an AirTag on my bicycle. If someone steals the bicycle, they are literally informed "an air tag is following you" https://support.apple.com/en-us/119874
There are a lot of things I'd love to put long-term AirTags on (luggage, snow-blower, childrens' backpacks) but if theft isnt really deterred, then the case for a bulkier AirTag is quite reduced.
Theft-tracking is sort of an "off-label" use for AirTags, from Apple's perspective.
They'd rather make AirTags less generally useful than make them both more generally useful + open to stalking occurrences and lawsuits.
They'd rather make AirTags less generally useful than make them both more generally useful + open to stalking occurrences and lawsuits.
I don't understand why AirTags being used for stalking would open Apple to lawsuits. If I buy a hammer and use it to attack someone, the manufacturer of the hammer isn't open to a lawsuit.
Of course I'm not saying Apple shouldn't try to protect people from stalkers using their control over their products, I just don't see why it would make Appld responsible if someone misused their products.
Of course I'm not saying Apple shouldn't try to protect people from stalkers using their control over their products, I just don't see why it would make Appld responsible if someone misused their products.
IANAL but the hammer doesnt include an ongoing service, but the AirTag is facilitated with a constant service from the manufacturer.
Also AirTags are meant for tracking personal possessions. Hammers aren't meant for murder. Murder is an off-label use of hammers.
If AirTags stopped notifying users they're being tracked, then AirTags would also be meant for tracking people.
If AirTags stopped notifying users they're being tracked, then AirTags would also be meant for tracking people.
> If AirTags stopped notifying users they're being tracked, then AirTags would also be meant for tracking people.
What?? That's like by not including a sound device that screams "look out, you're being murdered!" on every hammer when it's swung, manufacturers are saying their hammers are also intended for murder.
Now that Apple has this feature, sure, removing it might raise some eyebrows, but the theft tracking use-case is so obvious and useful that no judge would ever believe that Apple did this specifically to enable stalking.
What?? That's like by not including a sound device that screams "look out, you're being murdered!" on every hammer when it's swung, manufacturers are saying their hammers are also intended for murder.
Now that Apple has this feature, sure, removing it might raise some eyebrows, but the theft tracking use-case is so obvious and useful that no judge would ever believe that Apple did this specifically to enable stalking.
Conversely, people have been suing gun manufacturers after shootings basically forever.
Ya, but those cases have tended to get a bit more traction because the primary purpose of firearms is to kill and there are lots of things that gun makers could do to make it more difficult to kill people with them (like built in locking mechanisms). A little different than say, a hammer, which is not meant as a weapon of death.
Gun manufacturers could add pointless and customer-hostile complications to guns just like apple can add customer-hostile complications to airtags. The case against Apple is even stronger, because at least apple's complications have a chance of doing something useful, and Apple provides an ongoing service where firearm manufacturers do not.
There's also no reasonable standard by which you can claim guns are being made to murder people but AirTags are not being made to stalk people. A vanishingly small fraction of total sales ever goes towards either of these undesirable use cases.
The smart move here is to get your risk models in order and stop worrying about either of these things.
There's also no reasonable standard by which you can claim guns are being made to murder people but AirTags are not being made to stalk people. A vanishingly small fraction of total sales ever goes towards either of these undesirable use cases.
The smart move here is to get your risk models in order and stop worrying about either of these things.
I bet it's less about lawsuits and more about reputational harm if every week there is a news story about a murder facilitated by an AirTag.
Agreed on the trade-off. And there are some absolutely 1000% winning use cases (lost cats, lost dogs, lost luggage). However, lets look at the constraints and outcomes:
- Me or other people need to be around (since airtags jump off others' devices)
This removes use cases like tracking lost marine goods, tracking lost drones, etc.
- Item being tracked has to be big enough to be worth the extra size/weight of the long life battery wrapper
This removes most common use cases like wallets, remotes, etc.
- Item being tracked has to be something you actually lose w/o wrongdoing. Makes sense for backpacks, purses, parked cars.
But, most capital equipment wouldnt be "lost" it would be stolen, so that is out.
https://ios.gadgethacks.com/how-to/20-surprisingly-practical...
- Me or other people need to be around (since airtags jump off others' devices)
This removes use cases like tracking lost marine goods, tracking lost drones, etc.
- Item being tracked has to be big enough to be worth the extra size/weight of the long life battery wrapper
This removes most common use cases like wallets, remotes, etc.
- Item being tracked has to be something you actually lose w/o wrongdoing. Makes sense for backpacks, purses, parked cars.
But, most capital equipment wouldnt be "lost" it would be stolen, so that is out.
https://ios.gadgethacks.com/how-to/20-surprisingly-practical...
> This removes most common use cases like wallets, remotes, etc.
I use an airtag for my wallet and apple remote.
https://ridge.com/products/carbon-case-for-airtag
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09G4PT3NJ
I use an airtag for my wallet and apple remote.
https://ridge.com/products/carbon-case-for-airtag
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09G4PT3NJ
Were talking about the extended battery case, are you saying you put this giant thing in your wallet and on your remotes?!
https://www.elevationlab.com/blogs/news/introducing-timecaps...
Yes, I clearly linked containers that aren't the device in question. I don't see the need for the extended battery case in those use-cases.
I also don't see my cat wearing that thing either. Maybe a large dog.
But things like wallets, remotes, cats, dogs, are usually in your possession frequently and only lost for short periods of time before you notice.
Luggage would be a good use case, and possibly bikes and other large equipment. But I would opt for something more discreet vs a larger battery.
I also don't see my cat wearing that thing either. Maybe a large dog.
But things like wallets, remotes, cats, dogs, are usually in your possession frequently and only lost for short periods of time before you notice.
Luggage would be a good use case, and possibly bikes and other large equipment. But I would opt for something more discreet vs a larger battery.
For 10 USD more than the carbon case, I prefer using the following item for my wallet. https://nomadgoods.com/products/tracking-card
My wallet is rfid blocking, that wouldn't work.
Plus one less card space in it, even if it did work.
Plus one less card space in it, even if it did work.
Any tracker can be turned off if a thief manages to find it - but yeah a notification letting them know they need to look isn’t great.
I use an AirTag on my e-bike - there’s quite a few hidden mounts out there that look like normal rear reflectors or slot in between a water bottle cage and the bike frame. It’s also trivially easy to pop the AirTag open and remove the speaker so it can’t beep.
I bought my AirTags before there were any compatible third party options, but the non-Apple AirTags don’t have the UWB chip inside and don’t support the precision finding feature which would also make them more difficult to find.
I use an AirTag on my e-bike - there’s quite a few hidden mounts out there that look like normal rear reflectors or slot in between a water bottle cage and the bike frame. It’s also trivially easy to pop the AirTag open and remove the speaker so it can’t beep.
I bought my AirTags before there were any compatible third party options, but the non-Apple AirTags don’t have the UWB chip inside and don’t support the precision finding feature which would also make them more difficult to find.
It’s not just the beeping. The potential thief’s iPhone will also notify them they’re being tracked.
I wonder a 3rd party tracker (using Find My network) could fool the iPhone somehow. Maybe if it does 1 minute on, 1 minute off, or something like that?
> Nice solution, but the bigger problem is how AirTags can basically be turned off, which makes it poor for many use cases.
> Of course, I get it from Apple's perspective, they dont want AirTags to be used to tail others.
I'm also not a fan of having to go back to Apple and pay a fee for "battery service", when the current fix is a CR2032 battery that's under $1.
> Of course, I get it from Apple's perspective, they dont want AirTags to be used to tail others.
I'm also not a fan of having to go back to Apple and pay a fee for "battery service", when the current fix is a CR2032 battery that's under $1.
> Nice solution, but the bigger problem is how AirTags can basically be turned off, which makes it poor for many use cases.
Isn't that too late? If you disabled that AirTag with your phone, you are probably the thief. Now we got you fully I.D.ed.
It seems that the safest bet, for a thief/criminal, is to not take any iPhone (or phone) on him while committing the crime.
Isn't that too late? If you disabled that AirTag with your phone, you are probably the thief. Now we got you fully I.D.ed.
It seems that the safest bet, for a thief/criminal, is to not take any iPhone (or phone) on him while committing the crime.
Thanks for this - I never thought that the act of disabling would create a record, but that makes sense! I wonder if that is something law enforcement can track and act on.
There is no feature that allows the thief to disable the AirTag at all. In the notification for "an AirTag is following you" the link for disabling the AirTag is simply instructions for removing the battery. It's up to the thief to find the AirTag using the audio ping (which, as mentioned elsewhere, you can deactivate by disconnecting the speaker) and their human eyeballs.
Go back to the page you linked -- https://support.apple.com/en-us/119874 -- the bottom of this page has a screenshot of those instructions.
Go back to the page you linked -- https://support.apple.com/en-us/119874 -- the bottom of this page has a screenshot of those instructions.
https://github.com/seemoo-lab/openhaystack/?tab=readme-ov-fi...
These won’t inform, I believe.
These won’t inform, I believe.
They aren’t meant for finding stolen stuff, rather, lost stuff.
Also, thieves are dumb.
Also, thieves are dumb.
Are AirTags actually useful for anti-theft purposes?
I threw one in the trunk of my car (just in case - I ordered a 4-pack and I had a spare one), and every single time I drive somewhere it chirps loudly when I'm exiting my driveway, making its presence immediately obvious without any delays, and despite my phone being with me in the car.
I threw one in the trunk of my car (just in case - I ordered a 4-pack and I had a spare one), and every single time I drive somewhere it chirps loudly when I'm exiting my driveway, making its presence immediately obvious without any delays, and despite my phone being with me in the car.
Yes, actually. It's not a panacea, but it's a foothold.
Nearly all my hardside cases have an airtag stuffed in one of the "Surface Mount" kits from ElevationLab. it looks like a pressure valve on the other side, and I might replace them with Security mounts if I'm really worried. Having those was a FANTASTIC way to track my cases as I left them with a (trusted) friend to be shipped along some other Very High Value gear. Being able to see what was going on (and know when it had reached its destination) was invaluable. On the way back, I could see my luggage as it slugged its way through the airport luggage handling system. It's not real-time but good enough for rough location.
A friend of mine was able to locate their stolen vehicle down to the block and then drone-find the vehicle from there, call the cops, and ended up busting an interstate chop shop in the process. The AirTag consistently got gasps of updates from passing vehicles and the neighbor's HomePod.
All this because she had hidden an airtag in the gas cap.
There are airlines that are encouraging people to put airtags/tiles/samsung trackers on their checked luggage because it helps them keep the airport handlers in check. A prime example of this is flying with guns (yes, you can fly with guns!) and how having an airtag made it EASIER to recover the firearm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHyb2amIkzo (This happened AGAIN, by the way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBngUc3rmY0 -- Yes, airlines are TERRIBLE about handling these things!)
Nearly all my hardside cases have an airtag stuffed in one of the "Surface Mount" kits from ElevationLab. it looks like a pressure valve on the other side, and I might replace them with Security mounts if I'm really worried. Having those was a FANTASTIC way to track my cases as I left them with a (trusted) friend to be shipped along some other Very High Value gear. Being able to see what was going on (and know when it had reached its destination) was invaluable. On the way back, I could see my luggage as it slugged its way through the airport luggage handling system. It's not real-time but good enough for rough location.
A friend of mine was able to locate their stolen vehicle down to the block and then drone-find the vehicle from there, call the cops, and ended up busting an interstate chop shop in the process. The AirTag consistently got gasps of updates from passing vehicles and the neighbor's HomePod.
All this because she had hidden an airtag in the gas cap.
There are airlines that are encouraging people to put airtags/tiles/samsung trackers on their checked luggage because it helps them keep the airport handlers in check. A prime example of this is flying with guns (yes, you can fly with guns!) and how having an airtag made it EASIER to recover the firearm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHyb2amIkzo (This happened AGAIN, by the way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBngUc3rmY0 -- Yes, airlines are TERRIBLE about handling these things!)
Wow, those surface mount kits are pretty cool. I found them here: https://www.elevationlab.com/products/tagvault-surface-secur...
That same company also makes the 10 year AirTag battery. I am surprised that no one has released a 3D model to print. It would be popular with DIYers.
That same company also makes the 10 year AirTag battery. I am surprised that no one has released a 3D model to print. It would be popular with DIYers.
> There are airlines that are encouraging people to put airtags/tiles/samsung trackers on their checked luggage because it helps them keep the airport handlers in check.
They'd rather do anything than pay airport handlers better lol
They'd rather do anything than pay airport handlers better lol
There is something wrong with your configuration/setup, it is not supposed to start chirping unless it is out of range of your phone for at least 8 days, and not in one of the predefined geofence regions you can setup where it won't chirp.
I have them on tons of my devices, including my kids personal items that go to school, etc. and they never chirp, and I can and have found items that were misplaced in public locations (but not actually stolen).
I have them on tons of my devices, including my kids personal items that go to school, etc. and they never chirp, and I can and have found items that were misplaced in public locations (but not actually stolen).
>it is not supposed to start chirping unless it is out of range of your phone for at least 8 days, and not in one of the predefined geofence regions you can setup where it won't chirp.
Does it even chirp then? This is news to me, I have an airtag in my car and have certainly left it for 2 weeks during vacations. I've never heard the airtag chirp unless I make it play a sound through "Find My"
Does it even chirp then? This is news to me, I have an airtag in my car and have certainly left it for 2 weeks during vacations. I've never heard the airtag chirp unless I make it play a sound through "Find My"
Your home is usually automatically geofenced, so if you left it there it shouldn't chirp. If you parked your car elsewhere, e.g. an airport lot it was probably chirping while you were gone, but you wouldn't hear it because you weren't there.
They only chirp when disturbed (when separated from their paired device). I've got an iPad paired to a set on my keys, no iPhone. If I let the iPad die, eventually the airtag will start chirping when I pick up my keys, but when I'm not touching them they don't chirp.
oh lol interesting. I wonder how many people I have been annoying with the constant sound. This seemed like a perfect setup, but apparently not.
> There is something wrong with your configuration/setup
Something is off for sure, but it's not like there are any user-configurable parts here. I literally just threw it in the trunk - and it's not like there's a right and a wrong way to do it. :-)
I guess it's because I don't have a garage and my car is parked in a carport, about ~100 feet/~30 meters away from my apartment, so it "normally" doesn't sense my phone "nearby". Then, I suspect, when I walk down and sit in the car (which takes just a minute or two) there is not enough time for it to reconnect with the phone and realize the owner is around. Because an AirTag on my wallet doesn't do this. But that's just my guess - I'm too lazy to pull an SDR and listen to the radio traffic to confirm.
Something is off for sure, but it's not like there are any user-configurable parts here. I literally just threw it in the trunk - and it's not like there's a right and a wrong way to do it. :-)
I guess it's because I don't have a garage and my car is parked in a carport, about ~100 feet/~30 meters away from my apartment, so it "normally" doesn't sense my phone "nearby". Then, I suspect, when I walk down and sit in the car (which takes just a minute or two) there is not enough time for it to reconnect with the phone and realize the owner is around. Because an AirTag on my wallet doesn't do this. But that's just my guess - I'm too lazy to pull an SDR and listen to the radio traffic to confirm.
You can configure the geofencing locations where it won't alarm in the 'Find My' app.
I have an AirTag in wallet. Every month or so it will chirp for no obvious reason. My phone might be with me, or upstairs, or whatever. It's just random.
No, they have been rendered useless for that purpose through software updates because of the almost 100% overlap of the use cases of 1) stalking someone 2) and tracking a thief.
I think you can still thread the needle. The cases are identical except for one situation--if the air tag is difficult to find or remove.
If you can't find or remove the air tag, then the option you have left to not be tracked is to separate yourself from the tracked thing. In the case of someone being stalked, that's inconvenient (that doesn't do it justice, but not really important to my point). In the case of someone who stole something, that's actually the desired outcome.
Imagine a situation where you get in a car and a few minutes later it says there's an air tag following you.
If you're being stalked... you can drive straight to a mechanic who can take all the time they need to find it, take a taxi over to the police and report it, etc.
If you just stole that car, now you know you're on the clock. Once someone's looking for you and that vehicle, there's a really good chance they're going to find it. You can take it to a mechanic, but a reputable mechanic might have some questions. You can try a less reputable mechanic, but they're gonna be pissed when the cops come knocking asking about the stolen car sitting over there and you might not be going back there any time soon. So if you can't find and remove the air tag relatively quickly, what options do you have left? Probably makes more sense to abandon the vehicle and try another one with a lower risk of winding up in jail.
I _know_ where the air tag is in my suitcase and it would take me tools and ~15 minutes to remove. How long is someone going to spend at that versus just tossing it?
If you can't find or remove the air tag, then the option you have left to not be tracked is to separate yourself from the tracked thing. In the case of someone being stalked, that's inconvenient (that doesn't do it justice, but not really important to my point). In the case of someone who stole something, that's actually the desired outcome.
Imagine a situation where you get in a car and a few minutes later it says there's an air tag following you.
If you're being stalked... you can drive straight to a mechanic who can take all the time they need to find it, take a taxi over to the police and report it, etc.
If you just stole that car, now you know you're on the clock. Once someone's looking for you and that vehicle, there's a really good chance they're going to find it. You can take it to a mechanic, but a reputable mechanic might have some questions. You can try a less reputable mechanic, but they're gonna be pissed when the cops come knocking asking about the stolen car sitting over there and you might not be going back there any time soon. So if you can't find and remove the air tag relatively quickly, what options do you have left? Probably makes more sense to abandon the vehicle and try another one with a lower risk of winding up in jail.
I _know_ where the air tag is in my suitcase and it would take me tools and ~15 minutes to remove. How long is someone going to spend at that versus just tossing it?
TBH your response makes me realize there's possibly a decent use case for bicycles with the right diameter tubing.
> You can try a less reputable mechanic, but they're gonna be pissed when the cops come knocking asking about the stolen car sitting over there and you might not be going back there any time soon. So if you can't find and remove the air tag relatively quickly, what options do you have left? Probably makes more sense to abandon the vehicle and try another one with a lower risk of winding up in jail.
Depends on the skill of the chop-shop or it's folks and where you are.
A fun thought experience would be how much suspicion a flatbed tow truck with some form of faraday cage around the car, below a cover would get from LE.
Agree with your general 'deterrent' concept, I think the main challenge a lot of folks run into is getting lazy with placement. Glove/console boxes, the 'pockets' on the back of front seats, are all stupid easy. Technically anything in the interior, probably can be 'found' with sufficient detection capability.
No, you put that thing somewhere weird and ideally a PITA to get at.
This honestly gives me the idea of finding the right spot in my WRX front headlights to make it not visible; If the spot I'm thinking of will work, they'd literally have to pull off the front bumper to even get at it...
> You can try a less reputable mechanic, but they're gonna be pissed when the cops come knocking asking about the stolen car sitting over there and you might not be going back there any time soon. So if you can't find and remove the air tag relatively quickly, what options do you have left? Probably makes more sense to abandon the vehicle and try another one with a lower risk of winding up in jail.
Depends on the skill of the chop-shop or it's folks and where you are.
A fun thought experience would be how much suspicion a flatbed tow truck with some form of faraday cage around the car, below a cover would get from LE.
Agree with your general 'deterrent' concept, I think the main challenge a lot of folks run into is getting lazy with placement. Glove/console boxes, the 'pockets' on the back of front seats, are all stupid easy. Technically anything in the interior, probably can be 'found' with sufficient detection capability.
No, you put that thing somewhere weird and ideally a PITA to get at.
This honestly gives me the idea of finding the right spot in my WRX front headlights to make it not visible; If the spot I'm thinking of will work, they'd literally have to pull off the front bumper to even get at it...
Not sure what year your WRX is but my my suggestion would be "cup holders". And I don't mean "leave it in a cup holder"--pop the boot off the hand brake and there's like one screw and some clips to remove the cup holders from the center console and then an absolute _ton_ of space underneath. Even if someone _was_ looking there, there's room to hide it (hell, it's carpeted so a discreet hole in the carpet could hide it well).
If you put it towards the back near the center console storage, even with a phone someone's going to be checking the cup holders, the center console storage, down beside the seats, the seat back pockets, under the seats, _in the seats_, etc first. Then rechecking them. Then checking them again. Like you say, those would all be "normal" places to put it or drop it.
But you'll be able to pull it out and replace the battery or something in like 20 minutes when you had to do it once a year with nothing but a phillips screwdriver.
Alternatively, if you don't mind listening to it rattle around sometimes, from what I hear from people who have dropped rings and things into the under seat vents... you basically need to remove the entire interior to get in there. I'd get the 10 year battery first though.
If you put it towards the back near the center console storage, even with a phone someone's going to be checking the cup holders, the center console storage, down beside the seats, the seat back pockets, under the seats, _in the seats_, etc first. Then rechecking them. Then checking them again. Like you say, those would all be "normal" places to put it or drop it.
But you'll be able to pull it out and replace the battery or something in like 20 minutes when you had to do it once a year with nothing but a phillips screwdriver.
Alternatively, if you don't mind listening to it rattle around sometimes, from what I hear from people who have dropped rings and things into the under seat vents... you basically need to remove the entire interior to get in there. I'd get the 10 year battery first though.
Wait until they realize the almost 100% overlap between the camera's use cases of 1) spying on people and 2) recording nature
Nature cameras are relatively hard to conceal (from humans), whereas AirTags are very easy to conceal.
They are also very bad for tracking compared to what you can get on Aliexpress/eBay/Amazon (which are the same tbh).
For about the same price you can get a device with a SIM card and GPS/GLONASS and _zero_ ways to detect it.
For about the same price you can get a device with a SIM card and GPS/GLONASS and _zero_ ways to detect it.
What's the battery life on that though? The appeal of AirTags is that they last a year and work anywhere that has an iPhone nearby.
Depends on the device. Some are active all the time, some can sleep and only wake up to get their position fix every hour or so. It's not exactly rocket science to adjust the programming.
And if you're stalking someone for a year, you'll have ample options to swap the device to a new one with a fresh battery.
And if you're stalking someone for a year, you'll have ample options to swap the device to a new one with a fresh battery.
Can you give a couple of example products? I am very curious.
>Are AirTags actually useful for anti-theft purposes?
For small items where the airtag is merely present, it can be useful from the perspective of being alerted when an item is left behind or taken away from your surroundings. Much theft crime is opportunistic, such as forgetting a wallet behind in a restaurant, or dropping it in a street. Airtags are useful in that regard as the "left behind" alerts are reasonably timely, and tracking an item down works well. This works because you realise it's gone and find it before someone else does.
While there are still plenty of examples of people using airtags for recovery of stolen goods, that's not the main product intention as it is very easy to discover and disable a loose airtag. Some larger items however (e.g. certain bikes) have airtags built in which aren't easily disabled, there are also mounting cages which serve a similar purpose - in these circumstances it is a legitimate antitheft device because the ability to easily disable it is removed.
I use airtags and my most common use of it is to ask siri to "jingle my keys", which alerts me to whichever coat or pair of jeans I've left them in (my second most common use is receiving an alert that I've left my umbrella behind somewhere).
I also remember one occasion of leaving my keys in a taxi, realising immediately, and chasing it down the road - the taxi never saw me, and I never saw my keys again, with an airtag that would have played out differently. These kinds of situations are far more common than dealing with thievery.
For small items where the airtag is merely present, it can be useful from the perspective of being alerted when an item is left behind or taken away from your surroundings. Much theft crime is opportunistic, such as forgetting a wallet behind in a restaurant, or dropping it in a street. Airtags are useful in that regard as the "left behind" alerts are reasonably timely, and tracking an item down works well. This works because you realise it's gone and find it before someone else does.
While there are still plenty of examples of people using airtags for recovery of stolen goods, that's not the main product intention as it is very easy to discover and disable a loose airtag. Some larger items however (e.g. certain bikes) have airtags built in which aren't easily disabled, there are also mounting cages which serve a similar purpose - in these circumstances it is a legitimate antitheft device because the ability to easily disable it is removed.
I use airtags and my most common use of it is to ask siri to "jingle my keys", which alerts me to whichever coat or pair of jeans I've left them in (my second most common use is receiving an alert that I've left my umbrella behind somewhere).
I also remember one occasion of leaving my keys in a taxi, realising immediately, and chasing it down the road - the taxi never saw me, and I never saw my keys again, with an airtag that would have played out differently. These kinds of situations are far more common than dealing with thievery.
Yes, but only if you remove the speaker which is well documented on YouTube
Even if you do that they will still notify a thief with a notification on their iPhone.
I think that's ok though, right?
As long as you do a good job placing/hiding it, the thief can't easily find and remove/disable without the speaker.
As long as you do a good job placing/hiding it, the thief can't easily find and remove/disable without the speaker.
How big is your item and how hard is it to search? If you know a bag has an airtag in it, it won't take that long to find.
If you get a bit creative you can definitely hide it well enough that "removing the air tag" is no longer the weak point in the plan.
I've got a Pelican 1510 that has a suitcase-style pop up handle and wheels on it. It's just screwed on there. I took the screws out, took it off, filed the sides of the air tag down slightly so I could fit it in a little cranny and then held it in place with some black tape so it's hard to see. Even if you use an iPhone to try and find it, it looks like it's hidden in the liner or something. But it takes tools and about 15 minutes to get it out _even if you know exactly where it is_ and how to get to it.
For one of my backpacks it actually came with an "air tag pocket" which is just a spot on an inside seam where there's a small gap you can slide the air tag in and it's held securely. I know it's there and it still takes me a while to find the thing to take it out.
For my other, I pretty much just get by on it having a bazillion little pockets and pouches and lot of random stuff in it. The air tag's nestled in there beside the flashlight that the TSA spent almost a half hour looking for after x-raying my bag repeatedly before finally telling me what they were looking for and me pulling it out for them.
I'm relatively certain I'd recover my bag with the air tag still in it. Whether or not the _valuables_ are still there is a different story.
I've got a Pelican 1510 that has a suitcase-style pop up handle and wheels on it. It's just screwed on there. I took the screws out, took it off, filed the sides of the air tag down slightly so I could fit it in a little cranny and then held it in place with some black tape so it's hard to see. Even if you use an iPhone to try and find it, it looks like it's hidden in the liner or something. But it takes tools and about 15 minutes to get it out _even if you know exactly where it is_ and how to get to it.
For one of my backpacks it actually came with an "air tag pocket" which is just a spot on an inside seam where there's a small gap you can slide the air tag in and it's held securely. I know it's there and it still takes me a while to find the thing to take it out.
For my other, I pretty much just get by on it having a bazillion little pockets and pouches and lot of random stuff in it. The air tag's nestled in there beside the flashlight that the TSA spent almost a half hour looking for after x-raying my bag repeatedly before finally telling me what they were looking for and me pulling it out for them.
I'm relatively certain I'd recover my bag with the air tag still in it. Whether or not the _valuables_ are still there is a different story.
I have a feeling that thieves aren't going to spend any time fooling around if it isn't obvious, they'll dump the valuables out of the bag, and discard the bag.
Presumably quite often the bag and the airtag are worth more than the contents?!
In my case definitely not.
If I had nothing of value or only antifragile things I'd just throw everything in an old backpack. The reason I own the pelican case is for when I'm flying with $15k of computers, camera gear, etc. If anything I'd see the pelican case as _increasing_ my risk of it being stolen (who puts some clothes and some deodourant and a toothbrush in a $500 hard case?), but massively decreasing my risk of physical damage which is way more likely.
The air tag isn't even really in there for "sophisticated thieves stole my stuff" purposes so much as "airline made me gate check it and now they've lost it" purposes. Though I imagine the air tag and some basic padlocks would definitely help my chances with most unsophisticated thieves.
If I had nothing of value or only antifragile things I'd just throw everything in an old backpack. The reason I own the pelican case is for when I'm flying with $15k of computers, camera gear, etc. If anything I'd see the pelican case as _increasing_ my risk of it being stolen (who puts some clothes and some deodourant and a toothbrush in a $500 hard case?), but massively decreasing my risk of physical damage which is way more likely.
The air tag isn't even really in there for "sophisticated thieves stole my stuff" purposes so much as "airline made me gate check it and now they've lost it" purposes. Though I imagine the air tag and some basic padlocks would definitely help my chances with most unsophisticated thieves.
Yeah that's kind of what I was alluding to in the last line. Was mostly responding to the idea that "it won't take that long to find".
With a bit of creativity they can be made pretty hard to find. At least hard enough that they're no longer the weak link at all.
The next step would be trying to make it more integral to whatever thing you're trying to track. If you disassemble an air tag and hide it inside your laptop, no thief is gonna pull out some precision screwdrivers and start trying to figure out where the hell it is. They're just going to get rid of it.
... Which I've thought about, but that's a level I don't think is really necessary for my own situation.
With a bit of creativity they can be made pretty hard to find. At least hard enough that they're no longer the weak link at all.
The next step would be trying to make it more integral to whatever thing you're trying to track. If you disassemble an air tag and hide it inside your laptop, no thief is gonna pull out some precision screwdrivers and start trying to figure out where the hell it is. They're just going to get rid of it.
... Which I've thought about, but that's a level I don't think is really necessary for my own situation.
True, a suitcase could be quickly dispatched but you could hide it very very well on something like a car.
Maybe, but is any old car thief on the street going to hang on to a car they know has an airtag in it? They probably were going to joy ride it for the afternoon, maybe commit some other crime, wreck it, and dump it regardless.
I have an airtag in my car, but I don't think I'm going to get much value out of it other than finding my car when I forget where I'm parked.
If you want to catch a criminal in the act, you usually need to observe surreptitiously or they'll change behavior.
I have an airtag in my car, but I don't think I'm going to get much value out of it other than finding my car when I forget where I'm parked.
If you want to catch a criminal in the act, you usually need to observe surreptitiously or they'll change behavior.
> but is any old car thief on the street going to hang on to a car they know has an airtag in it?
No, and that's mostly the point right? If they get in the car, get an alert they're being tracked, then dump the car, at least you find it faster.
No, and that's mostly the point right? If they get in the car, get an alert they're being tracked, then dump the car, at least you find it faster.
By the point it's stolen, it's probably already too little too late. Not only will it probably be going to some impound lot before I can get to it -- it'll probably be on track to be my insurance company's car at that point. Seeing it on a map might be fun for curiosity's sake at that point, I guess.
It's a vehicle and fairly hard to search.
I wonder with customizations like in OP you could bypass this. For example, if the alert comes after 20 minutes of being near an air tag - if the power to the circuit was automatically cut for 1 minute every 15 minutes, would the alert still activate?
I don't think it works like that, anyway. The alert is not generated by the airtag, it is generated by the phone. And the phone knows what is around it because it scans for beacons on a periodic basis.
Right - the phone itself is what is keeping track of the air tag, but if the phone doesn't detect the airtag for some period of time, I assume the anti-stalking timer resets. This is why if you walk past an airtag on the way to the store, and then walk by it again 20 minutes later, you won't get an anti-stalking alert.
Only if a thief has an iPhone or manually installed the Android App.
The latest version of Android shows this now. I had to install nothing on my phone for this(I get a full map showing the tracking behavior)
From a year ago https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/newest-android-feature-aler...
From a year ago https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/newest-android-feature-aler...
Ah I completely missed that, thanks! Very nice that this is supported everywhere now.
But it doesn't do this right away.I was traveling with a group of people that had AirTags, and I only start getting alerts by day three.
You shouldn't get them ever if you are traveling with the owner of the AirTag. The criteria for notification is:
1. the airtag is following you
2. the owner of the airtag does is not near the airtag
1. the airtag is following you
2. the owner of the airtag does is not near the airtag
I get them within 30 to 45 minutes, consistently. You won't get them if the people are traveling with you.
Samsung tracker doesn't have this silly problem.
Samsung make trackers? Are you referring to tile?
Samsung Galaxy SmartTags:
https://www.samsung.com/us/support/answer/ANS00088244/
https://www.samsung.com/us/support/answer/ANS00088244/
Why would he be referring to Tile when he said Samsung? Samsung has nothing to do with Tile.
> Samsung make trackers?
Yes.
> Are you referring to tile?
No.
Yes.
> Are you referring to tile?
No.
You can disable the speaker physically, it’s not too difficult
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Not a bad price, but it does require an existing Airtag.
Ten years is a very long time in tech. I wouldn't be confident that the Airtag protocol will be functioning in 2035, and there are already rumors of a new Airtag and possibly a newer protocol coming up.
Ten years is a very long time in tech. I wouldn't be confident that the Airtag protocol will be functioning in 2035, and there are already rumors of a new Airtag and possibly a newer protocol coming up.
If Apple kills existing Airtags any time soon they effectively kill the product line. So they won’t.
Its really easy for them, and this also in line how they would operate:
Add a new Airtag v2 protocol to the next iPhone and sell new Airtags only using that protocol. Why should you buy them? They could have different improvements you would like.
Start deprecating Airtag v1 in 3-4 years - and only sell new ones. There are now 3-4 iPhone generations that can handle the new version.
The next iPhone in 6-7 years doesn't support Airtags v1 anymore as it is obsolete now for many years.
Voila, they killed Airtags v1 in less than 10 years without killing the entire product line by switching to a new version. Is that unrealistic? No, thats their normal way how they deprecate stuff. It still works but only with old hardware or by not getting new updates anymore (iOS, macOS).
Add a new Airtag v2 protocol to the next iPhone and sell new Airtags only using that protocol. Why should you buy them? They could have different improvements you would like.
Start deprecating Airtag v1 in 3-4 years - and only sell new ones. There are now 3-4 iPhone generations that can handle the new version.
The next iPhone in 6-7 years doesn't support Airtags v1 anymore as it is obsolete now for many years.
Voila, they killed Airtags v1 in less than 10 years without killing the entire product line by switching to a new version. Is that unrealistic? No, thats their normal way how they deprecate stuff. It still works but only with old hardware or by not getting new updates anymore (iOS, macOS).
I would agree with you if this was a main line product (iPad, Macs, iPhone). You could argue the Apple Watch is a main line product as well.
But this is an accessory line. Apple is pretty good at keeping accessories working for as long as possible. AirPods v1 still work. A Magic Mouse bought 10 years ago still works as long as the battery isn't dead.
But this is an accessory line. Apple is pretty good at keeping accessories working for as long as possible. AirPods v1 still work. A Magic Mouse bought 10 years ago still works as long as the battery isn't dead.
actually ... it doesn't. Well, you can't use them with a phone anymore because they did exactly as described. The new mice work fine though.
This is not at all in line with how Apple operates, it's diametrically opposed to it in fact.
I suppose you could contradict me by providing a list of the products Apple has deprecated this way.
Can you?
I suppose you could contradict me by providing a list of the products Apple has deprecated this way.
Can you?
It's exactly how Apple operates. The last Apple device with Firewire was produced in 2012, though it was sold for several more years. MacOS 13 (2022) dropped the Firewire CoreAudio driver (as well as other, more niche support for Firewire). So... exactly 10 years.
If you're going to put me in a bucket, I'd be in the "Apple Hater" bucket, but I honestly think that the way that they do this is fine. It would have been better if they had jumped on the USB bandwagon earlier, they certainly love to build their own solutions that are incompatible with where the rest of the industry (see also, their proprietary wireless audio, their proprietary bluetooth codec, their proprietary thunderbolt extensions, their proprietary magsafe power connectors, their proprietary Lightning cable/connector, their forking of webkit off of khtml, their changes to webkit that are part of Safari but haven't been pushed upstream to webkit)
Anyways, this is exactly their MO and it's not bad. Apple doesn't need you to contradict everything people say about Apple.
If you're going to put me in a bucket, I'd be in the "Apple Hater" bucket, but I honestly think that the way that they do this is fine. It would have been better if they had jumped on the USB bandwagon earlier, they certainly love to build their own solutions that are incompatible with where the rest of the industry (see also, their proprietary wireless audio, their proprietary bluetooth codec, their proprietary thunderbolt extensions, their proprietary magsafe power connectors, their proprietary Lightning cable/connector, their forking of webkit off of khtml, their changes to webkit that are part of Safari but haven't been pushed upstream to webkit)
Anyways, this is exactly their MO and it's not bad. Apple doesn't need you to contradict everything people say about Apple.
Apple sold the first widely-available computer with USB connections, the iMac G3.
> To replace the removed ports, the iMac has Universal Serial Bus (USB) ports, which were faster and cheaper than Apple Desktop Bus and serial ports but were very new—the standard was not finalized until after the iMac's release—and unsupported by any third-party Mac peripheral.
> The last Apple device with Firewire was produced in 2012
Thunderbolt supports the Firewire protocol in the transport layer. So this means that people who need to support a Firewire device need a dongle now. Apple used to sell the adapter, apparently it's been discontinued, but they're still manufactured by third parties, and the originals available on the secondhand market. Which, given that Firewire is dead and buried, and no one is making new Firewire stuff, is also where you'd need to go to get something expecting Firewire to begin with.
I do not see this as the problem you seem to.
> To replace the removed ports, the iMac has Universal Serial Bus (USB) ports, which were faster and cheaper than Apple Desktop Bus and serial ports but were very new—the standard was not finalized until after the iMac's release—and unsupported by any third-party Mac peripheral.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMac_G3#Design
> The last Apple device with Firewire was produced in 2012
Thunderbolt supports the Firewire protocol in the transport layer. So this means that people who need to support a Firewire device need a dongle now. Apple used to sell the adapter, apparently it's been discontinued, but they're still manufactured by third parties, and the originals available on the secondhand market. Which, given that Firewire is dead and buried, and no one is making new Firewire stuff, is also where you'd need to go to get something expecting Firewire to begin with.
I do not see this as the problem you seem to.
> Apple sold the first widely-available computer with USB connections, the iMac G3.
They were also, simultaneously, the first manufacturer to really go all-in on USB. Some PC manufacturers at the time were including one or two USB ports on their systems, but relied on legacy ports (PS/2, serial, parallel, etc) for most functionality. Their USB ports were mostly a show of "look, we have the new thing" - much in the same way that modern PC motherboards may have a single USB-C port on the back, actually.
They were also, simultaneously, the first manufacturer to really go all-in on USB. Some PC manufacturers at the time were including one or two USB ports on their systems, but relied on legacy ports (PS/2, serial, parallel, etc) for most functionality. Their USB ports were mostly a show of "look, we have the new thing" - much in the same way that modern PC motherboards may have a single USB-C port on the back, actually.
I interpreted it precisely the opposite. PC mobos were like "Look, you can use the new things if you have any, but we're not gonna make you throw out your PS/2 peripherals that you know and love, or even buy adapters for them, because all that stuff, and the support circuitry for it on the mobo, all works just fine."
The all-in approach required a forklift upgrade and generated a ton of e-waste.
The all-in approach required a forklift upgrade and generated a ton of e-waste.
> The all-in approach required a forklift upgrade and generated a ton of e-waste.
It really wasn't that bad. I lived through it.
The iMac was pitched as an entry-level Internet computer for new computer users. Many buyers didn't have a computer at all previous to purchasing an iMac, or only had one which was old enough that its accessories would have been irrelevant (e.g. an external modem). Probably the most common USB accessory purchase was external floppy drives - and a lot of users ended up discarding those after they realized they weren't using them.
It really wasn't that bad. I lived through it.
The iMac was pitched as an entry-level Internet computer for new computer users. Many buyers didn't have a computer at all previous to purchasing an iMac, or only had one which was old enough that its accessories would have been irrelevant (e.g. an external modem). Probably the most common USB accessory purchase was external floppy drives - and a lot of users ended up discarding those after they realized they weren't using them.
Maybe you missed the part where I said "this is fine". I don't have a problem with what they're doing, I have a problem with people saying that Apple doesn't do something that they very clearly do.
Also, I thought I was fairly clear in my comment, but Apple removed support in MacOS 13 for Firewire Audio... so it doesn't matter what kind of dongles you have, as soon as you update to 13, your firewire camera no longer works.
It's weird that Apple is removing driver-level support for a protocol. It's unexpected. It's also a dead tech that nobody cares about. The person I was responding to wanted an example of accessories that Apple stopped supporting, and "Anything with Firewire Audio" falls into that category. It is completely, utterly unusable with stock MacOS 13, though it's likely that some people have found a way to put it back in.
Also, I thought I was fairly clear in my comment, but Apple removed support in MacOS 13 for Firewire Audio... so it doesn't matter what kind of dongles you have, as soon as you update to 13, your firewire camera no longer works.
It's weird that Apple is removing driver-level support for a protocol. It's unexpected. It's also a dead tech that nobody cares about. The person I was responding to wanted an example of accessories that Apple stopped supporting, and "Anything with Firewire Audio" falls into that category. It is completely, utterly unusable with stock MacOS 13, though it's likely that some people have found a way to put it back in.
I might be missing something but Apple was the first (major) company to ship USB 1.1 in 1998 on the iMac. It was a big deal IIRC also because they removed the floppy drive at the same time.
But maybe you are talking about something else?
But maybe you are talking about something else?
I don't know if you were around in ~2005 ish, but for the longest time Apple backed Firewire 400/800 over USB2.0, because it was faster. Apple supported USB, of course, but it was clear that Firewire was the connector of choice.
You’re right Apple has a playbook of changing port types every few years, but there are adaptors available. The devices themselves still work, just that Apple knows they can use this one trick to encourage some customers to upgrade.
With wireless devices, protocol changes would brick the device, so they’d be less likely to do it so quickly. As far as I know, Apple haven’t announced any plans to deprecate the original Airpods, which came out 8 years ago and use some custom protocols alongside vanilla Bluetooth.
Maybe in the future they’ll start deprecating parts of the protocol (“in order to save your phone’s battery life” or something), but I don’t believe they have so far.
With wireless devices, protocol changes would brick the device, so they’d be less likely to do it so quickly. As far as I know, Apple haven’t announced any plans to deprecate the original Airpods, which came out 8 years ago and use some custom protocols alongside vanilla Bluetooth.
Maybe in the future they’ll start deprecating parts of the protocol (“in order to save your phone’s battery life” or something), but I don’t believe they have so far.
Specific to my comment, Apple removed code that supports audio over Firewire. It doesn't matter if adapters are available, cameras and microphones that used Firewire no longer work on MacOS 13+.
Again, it had a long run, I'm not upset that they "only" supported it for 10 years... but let's be very clear, the devices don't work. Also, this is them removing support for a protocol that is part of the base MacOS, so it's exactly like what will eventually happen when Apple stops supporting the original Airpods protocols.
I don't think that's any time soon, and if you're in the Apple ecosystem, go ham... let's just be very clear about the comparisons here.
Again, it had a long run, I'm not upset that they "only" supported it for 10 years... but let's be very clear, the devices don't work. Also, this is them removing support for a protocol that is part of the base MacOS, so it's exactly like what will eventually happen when Apple stops supporting the original Airpods protocols.
I don't think that's any time soon, and if you're in the Apple ecosystem, go ham... let's just be very clear about the comparisons here.
FireWire hard drives still work fine though. (FireWire 800 to Thunderbolt adapter, connected to a Thunderbolt to TB3 adapter).
Why support the adapter and hard drives, but not audio devices?
(What else used FireWire besides mass storage, audio stuff, the original iSight, and Time Warner Cable boxes from 2005?)
Why support the adapter and hard drives, but not audio devices?
(What else used FireWire besides mass storage, audio stuff, the original iSight, and Time Warner Cable boxes from 2005?)
Apple is to charging ports as Sony is to mass storage media.
Doing a v2 isn’t the same as “killing AirTags.” V2 could even have the same exact size and it would still be useful, just swap out. Worst case, buy a v1 to v2 adapter if it’s smaller, or hell, just buy another $20 10 year battery pack. If you’re protecting $10k equipment, who cares about spending $20. Piece of mind and durability matters a lot.
This might underestimate Apple consumerism (I include myself in that).
If the product line stops making sense or enough money they'll kill it. They're no Google, but it won't be the first product line that goes belly up.
The best scenario would be an industry standard that is widely more interesting than AirTags and works around the current compromises, letting Apple expand support to a wider audience. E.g. if the stalking problem had an elegant solution.
The best scenario would be an industry standard that is widely more interesting than AirTags and works around the current compromises, letting Apple expand support to a wider audience. E.g. if the stalking problem had an elegant solution.
They are coming up on 4 years old. I have quite a number of them and do have to replace batteries frequently enough that it can get annoying.
I'm sure Apple will innovate and come up with something newer/better/etc at some point. But it's unlikely the gen1 devices will go away anytime soon. Even if the real life is only... 5 years, that still saves a number of battery changes for devices that maybe you don't want to deal with regularly.
And with the fact that Apple had enough demand to increase the limit from 16 to 32 per account ( https://9to5mac.com/2024/01/12/airtag-limit/ ). Clearly people have bought into the ecosystem in a big way. 30 Airtags * $25 each is $750. I don't think they'll decommission the gen1 system anytime soon with that much investment. Plus Apple is surprisingly good at supporting their hardware for a reasonable amount of time. The iPhone XR from 2018 is still supported by iOS 18.
I'm sure Apple will innovate and come up with something newer/better/etc at some point. But it's unlikely the gen1 devices will go away anytime soon. Even if the real life is only... 5 years, that still saves a number of battery changes for devices that maybe you don't want to deal with regularly.
And with the fact that Apple had enough demand to increase the limit from 16 to 32 per account ( https://9to5mac.com/2024/01/12/airtag-limit/ ). Clearly people have bought into the ecosystem in a big way. 30 Airtags * $25 each is $750. I don't think they'll decommission the gen1 system anytime soon with that much investment. Plus Apple is surprisingly good at supporting their hardware for a reasonable amount of time. The iPhone XR from 2018 is still supported by iOS 18.
> Ten years is a very long time in tech.
Well, they certainly _might_ be functioning in ten years from now. Conservatively, you get 5 years of use out of this, which isn't bad for $15-20, depending on your use case.
Well, they certainly _might_ be functioning in ten years from now. Conservatively, you get 5 years of use out of this, which isn't bad for $15-20, depending on your use case.
I replace AirTag batteries every 6 months to be safe, so $15 (plus batteries) isn’t significantly more expensive over 5 years.
AirTags use the same Find My protocol that's been out for years before them, I doubt Apple will cut them off. They also get regular software updates, so the hardware should last that.
> I wouldn't be confident that the Airtag protocol will be functioning in 2035
I'd agree if it were any company other than Apple. And if Apple goes under by 2035 then AirTags will be the least of our concern.
I'd agree if it were any company other than Apple. And if Apple goes under by 2035 then AirTags will be the least of our concern.
[deleted]
While Apple products become obsolete, they are not exactly killed. i.e. your 15 year old macbook still functions but is limited. The air tag is a bit different because deprecating the protocol essentially kills it completely.
I highly doubt they do that unless they are remove airtags completely from their product line.
I highly doubt they do that unless they are remove airtags completely from their product line.
If you could disable the public key rotation on the AirTag, presumably you could greatly extend its battery life at the cost of your own privacy. When your battery gets low, Apple warns that "privacy protection is temporarily adjusted, AirTag may be traceable over Bluetooth". Wish I could enable this behavior in certain situations to extend the life.
(Or hook up an oversized external battery like this one, but tune the voltage to ~2V so it always looks like a nearly depleted CR2032 battery!)
(Or hook up an oversized external battery like this one, but tune the voltage to ~2V so it always looks like a nearly depleted CR2032 battery!)
I doubt that key rotation is a significant contributor to energy use. Energy spent doing RF (transmitting) plus energy spent sleeping will account for over 90 % of the energy use.
Source: I'm in a similar industry
Source: I'm in a similar industry
I think the airtag just wakes up less frequently on low power, so it has fewer opportunities to rotate the key.
The size and cost of this unit and the AirTag to put in it get close, but not quite to, the size and cost of a cellular asset tracker. Roughly $30 more to get into a reputable brand asset tracker.
The promised ten-year life is better than the e.g. 4-year life you can get out of a GPS/LTE NB-IOT with lithium primary cell and deep sleep, and with fewer compromises around tesponsiveness to commands (primary-battery asset trackers are usually waking up like once every 6 hours). Still, standalone asset trackers have a number of features that make them more suitable for theft scenarios than airtags, not least of which is the absence of the anti-stalking feature of airtags which means they're never really a concealable option.
The major difference left is consumer-friendliness... Most asset trackers are provided by vendors with pretty hefty ongoing fees, and more oriented towards commercial customers like fleet operators and construction. Big difference in ease of purchase and use. It does make you wonder about the market for a really consumer-friendly solution, though.
The promised ten-year life is better than the e.g. 4-year life you can get out of a GPS/LTE NB-IOT with lithium primary cell and deep sleep, and with fewer compromises around tesponsiveness to commands (primary-battery asset trackers are usually waking up like once every 6 hours). Still, standalone asset trackers have a number of features that make them more suitable for theft scenarios than airtags, not least of which is the absence of the anti-stalking feature of airtags which means they're never really a concealable option.
The major difference left is consumer-friendliness... Most asset trackers are provided by vendors with pretty hefty ongoing fees, and more oriented towards commercial customers like fleet operators and construction. Big difference in ease of purchase and use. It does make you wonder about the market for a really consumer-friendly solution, though.
What's the cheapest monthly fee I can get on an asset tracker with some confidence that it'll still be operating in 4 years when the batteries run out?
What is the point of CNC machined screws? I have only seen that type of thing on specialized military applications and the like.
I'm sure standard rolled screws would be just fine...
I'm sure standard rolled screws would be just fine...
If I had to guess, they had easier access to a CNC or someone with CNC skills vs a shop that could get them rolled screws in the right size within their timeframe.
The 'nice' thing about CNC screws is that it's cheaper to do short runs. (which, on the military side, can help on some 'security by obscurity' lengths for revers engineering).
That said Rolled screws are almost always gonna be better unless the die is fucked.
The 'nice' thing about CNC screws is that it's cheaper to do short runs. (which, on the military side, can help on some 'security by obscurity' lengths for revers engineering).
That said Rolled screws are almost always gonna be better unless the die is fucked.
I had the exact same thought. The screws are recessed, so knurling is unimportant. I love the idea and will buy some for the cars but give me a stainless m5, hex cap head screw, I don’t care about the process.
Marketing wankery. It's _extremely_ valuable among a certain market, and when you look at the pricing here, oh yeah, that's their market.
Well, it is ambiguous enough of a statement that it could be both. Maybe rolled threads and CNC lathe finish on the head... to make it look nice? Rolled threads are stronger anyway. Zooming in, it does look like there's turning marks on the head of the screws.
Not technical razzle-dazzle but the sheer aesthetic superiority of its elegant parabolic design make the GFX-100 a marketing breakthrough!
I'm OK with the One-Year-ish battery life and happy to change them yearly. I try to do them in batches (the fours usually die together within about a month).
The irritating ones are in the bags/check-ins I stashed/stored snugly, and now I have to take them out to replace the battery. Of course, the bearable thing is that the battery lasts for about a month after the warning, so there is that.
I think I'm complaining about something which is not a big deal.
I’m not sure if this much bigger device is any benefit just to make it last 10-years and forget about it.
The irritating ones are in the bags/check-ins I stashed/stored snugly, and now I have to take them out to replace the battery. Of course, the bearable thing is that the battery lasts for about a month after the warning, so there is that.
I think I'm complaining about something which is not a big deal.
I’m not sure if this much bigger device is any benefit just to make it last 10-years and forget about it.
Well look at in in terms of batteries deposited per year in the landfill: 0.1 or 1.
Two AA batteries is about 16 cm^3 of waste. 10 CR2032s is about 10 cm^3.
"Number of batteries" is not the right thing to measure. Maybe volume isn't either, but it's got to be closer.
"Number of batteries" is not the right thing to measure. Maybe volume isn't either, but it's got to be closer.
Probably volume and type of toxic materials are the best metrics
GAAP requires you to accrue your batteries deposited in landfill, so back to 0.1 per year (/s if not obvious)
The third time someone calls to complain that the alkaline batteries they put in this leaked, they'll wish they used a soldered-in 3V lithium primary cell. Even though that goes against a certain ethos.
> The third time someone calls to complain that the alkaline batteries they put in this leaked, they'll wish they used a soldered-in 3V lithium primary cell. Even though that goes against a certain ethos.
Those aren't alkaline batteries. Energizer makes AA/AAA-size lithium primary batteries, which is what they are using. They wont leak and have a 25 year shelf life.
https://data.energizer.com/pdfs/l91.pdf
And I don't think they'd get complaints about alkaline batteries leaking. I think pretty much anyone (even those who don't understand batteries), would tend to blame the batteries themselves, not the device they're in.
Those aren't alkaline batteries. Energizer makes AA/AAA-size lithium primary batteries, which is what they are using. They wont leak and have a 25 year shelf life.
https://data.energizer.com/pdfs/l91.pdf
And I don't think they'd get complaints about alkaline batteries leaking. I think pretty much anyone (even those who don't understand batteries), would tend to blame the batteries themselves, not the device they're in.
He means that idiot customers will use the wrong batteries and get mad, and they absolutely will. The modal customer doesn't understand anything about battery chemistry and will unconditionally buy the cheapest battery at the store.
No amount of intelligence or understanding of battery chemistry will make batteries any less dismal and disappointing to the consumer.
Ironically, the very cheapest carbon-zinc batteries probably would be kind of OK in this application.
Ironically, the very cheapest carbon-zinc batteries probably would be kind of OK in this application.
cries in 'I worked at a computer shop that started selling carbon-zinc batteries around 2002-2003'
I saw that they recommended Energizer lithiums. So would I. Recommendations won't change that behavior, which I am very familiar with. It's ok that you aren't if you're willing to learn something today.
They should have added $5 to the price and packaged in $4 of lithium AA batteries.
I agree, I don't want to have to buy batteries separately, bad buyer experience.
The lithium AA/AAA/CR batteries don't seem to leak. They're not widely available though. I use them for devices which mostly sit in a drawer and their lifetime can reach 5-6 years.
Primary lithium batteries absolutely do leak, given enough time. Often the victim is an old Mac motherboard, search for "mac pram battery ruined motherboard" on an image search engine of your choice.
Haha, you just reminded me about replacing motherboard CR battery. Recently I was fixing over five years old computer, noticed the battery and thought "What does it do, I wonder if it works, perhaps I should replace it?".
They fall from the sky. I don't buy them, I just hit up sondehub and see where there's a barely-used pair waiting for me to go clean up some litter.
What do you mean, what is sondehub?
Tracking weather balloons. They use lithium AAs for power, and the mission only uses a fraction of their capacity. When the balloon pops and the payload lands, there's a good pair of AA's laying in some farmer's field, stuck in a tree, or otherwise sitting around waiting for you to clean 'em up.
A 3D-printed part + two washers + battery case. DIY approach.
https://www.printables.com/model/383741-cr2032-battery-adapt...
A browse through this companies product selection is interesting. They make some really well thought through options for mounting and attaching AirTags that I’ve not seen elsewhere. In particular the pin, bike tube, and fabric mount ones.
The CNC screws mentioned in other thread appear to be part of their design language btw.
The CNC screws mentioned in other thread appear to be part of their design language btw.
I have several of their fabric mounts, one for a backpack and another for a dog collar, they’re more expensive than the cheap knockoffs but the quality is top notch and they’re worth every penny.
They've been around quite a while now and have always seemed to have sturdy looking designs.
Yeah, I wanted to see all the products at a glance without having to click & open each one of them.
My $0 version:
https://object.ceph-eu.hswaw.net/q3k-personal/5143b5491fca11...
Usually wrapped in electrician's tape.
1. NRF52 board from some scrap given by a friend, running forked/ported OpenHaystack firmware
2. AA battery holder from junk box
3. AA batteries from junk drawer
If my math is correct, this should last until AA self-discharge, ie. around 10 years. Yes, it works with Apple's FindMy network. Yes, I've flown with it.
https://object.ceph-eu.hswaw.net/q3k-personal/5143b5491fca11...
Usually wrapped in electrician's tape.
1. NRF52 board from some scrap given by a friend, running forked/ported OpenHaystack firmware
2. AA battery holder from junk box
3. AA batteries from junk drawer
If my math is correct, this should last until AA self-discharge, ie. around 10 years. Yes, it works with Apple's FindMy network. Yes, I've flown with it.
I guess anything could be a $0 version if you just happen to have all the parts already.
I wonder if they really don't know that Apple already has a product named Time Capsule.
The product you're referring to is called "AirPort Time Capsule" and time capsule can't be copyrighted.
https://www.apple.com/legal/intellectual-property/trademark/...
It is a registered trademark. As I understand it, common words or phrases can be protected within the same area. Colours too - https://secureyourtrademark.com/blog/t-mobile-magenta/
It is a registered trademark. As I understand it, common words or phrases can be protected within the same area. Colours too - https://secureyourtrademark.com/blog/t-mobile-magenta/
I know the concept here is set it and forget it, but still: wouldn't it make more sense to have a smaller (but still probably larger than the current setup) rechargeable battery? I admit I haven't done any research on this, but the Magic Mouse/Keyboard seem to prove the concept of a rechargeable battery lasting months at least, and the Apple Watch proves the idea of wireless charging in a compact form factor, so it seems likely you could produce something that 1. Still roughly fits the AirTag physical profile (i.e. could be used as a dog tag, which this certainly could not) and lasts for months at least and is easily rechargeable. And again, I get that I'm making it require more maintenance rather than (effectively) zero maintenance with this product, but the wireless recharging makes that maintenance much less of a burden than sourcing and swapping a watch battery.
Months would be painful. I have six airtags, so at two years life I’m replacing a battery every 4 months. If the lifespan was 3 months, I would be recharging one every two weeks. That means pulling them out of (relatively) hidden spots on a car and scooter, a laptop bag that I don’t even use most months, etc. For me, it would mean most of them were dead most of the time.
Oh, 100% if you're burying one in an obscure place on your car, you want to set it and forget it, and you have the space, so the 10-year battery makes sense. I'm thinking of the more portable use cases.
I imagine that keeping the cost down might have been important when designing this. You don't need a rechargeable battery and the charging circuitry.
10 years is also long enough that perhaps the tracker might stop being supported before its battery runs out.
10 years is also long enough that perhaps the tracker might stop being supported before its battery runs out.
If you’re the type of person who forgets to change a battery every year, in spite of Find My app warning you a couple of times, most likely you’ll forget to change it in a decade too
Don't worry, the AA cells will deteriorate far before the 10 years necessary to deplete their charge.
That's why it's shown with Energizer Lithium primary cells. No they won't.
Yeah I've not forgotten yet, the warnings were pretty impressive. Key is to have a few replacements on hand so you dont have to remember to buy them.
At 10 years I kinda wonder what the odds your AA batteries become problem occasionally (leaking, etc) long before the Airtag... although they are Lithium batteries.
I think leaking is relatively rare, but based on my experience of "10 year" smoke detector batteries they usually don't last anywhere near that.
Also there's stupid legislation in the UK at least around making smoke detectors with replaceable batteries. Took me quite a while to find some.
Also there's stupid legislation in the UK at least around making smoke detectors with replaceable batteries. Took me quite a while to find some.
are lithium batteries known to expand or catch fire in the AA form factor?
I think you misunderstood GP. Lithium AA batteries are very reliable and keep charge for at least ten years (the standard metric is losing approximately 1% per year), that's what he's saying.
They won't burn because they contain metallic lithium (and not lithium salts like rechargeable cells) and don't contain easily flammable organic solvents (yep, like rechargeable cells). There are videos on YouTube of people disassembling them with no problems (for example, to extract metallic lithium for chemistry experiments).
They won't burn because they contain metallic lithium (and not lithium salts like rechargeable cells) and don't contain easily flammable organic solvents (yep, like rechargeable cells). There are videos on YouTube of people disassembling them with no problems (for example, to extract metallic lithium for chemistry experiments).
it's a sincere and earnest question - I didn't know. I appreciate the additional info.
I believe that is primarily an issue for damaged or rechargeable lithium batteries, so not really a concern here.
Really neat idea and at that price I’ll probably get some for luggage and my backpacks, where I have AirTags that stay there the whole time.
One thing I’m curious about battery leakage. Many of the batteries of my remotes and similar devices seem to leak after a while (including one I heard pop and got very warm). These are devices that do get frequent usage, so they aren’t just sitting without any discharge (but also the drain for a remote would be very minimal).
Would this device experience the same, given how little power the AirTag needs?
One thing I’m curious about battery leakage. Many of the batteries of my remotes and similar devices seem to leak after a while (including one I heard pop and got very warm). These are devices that do get frequent usage, so they aren’t just sitting without any discharge (but also the drain for a remote would be very minimal).
Would this device experience the same, given how little power the AirTag needs?
This appears to be intended to be used with lithium primary cells.
Lithium primary cells tend not to get all leaky with age like alkalines do. (They'll keep your remote working approximately forever, too.)
Lithium primary cells tend not to get all leaky with age like alkalines do. (They'll keep your remote working approximately forever, too.)
Project Farm did a test for the best battery and lithium batteries smoked all the alkalines: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efDTP5SEdlo
IIRC the packaging pretty much says, should they leak, Energizer really wants to hear about it. For what that's worth.
Nice! Definitely somewhat of a niche use case, but I don't doubt that it exists.
I do wonder though: Do AA batteries actually have a shelf life of 10 years even without supplying any current?
I do wonder though: Do AA batteries actually have a shelf life of 10 years even without supplying any current?
The Lithium ones that they suggest to use do have a decade or more of shelf life, and they also don't leak!
I've got an old pinball machine. Those use AA batteries to store highscores and settings in a battery-powered RAM chip. Typically the batteries must be replaced once a year or at least every two years, largely because of self-drain, and it's a common occurrence of them leaking, which can quickly destroy the 30 year old circuit board they're on. That's why most pinball collectors suggest to use Lithium AA batteries: you get 5-10 year lifetime, no danger of leakage.
I've got an old pinball machine. Those use AA batteries to store highscores and settings in a battery-powered RAM chip. Typically the batteries must be replaced once a year or at least every two years, largely because of self-drain, and it's a common occurrence of them leaking, which can quickly destroy the 30 year old circuit board they're on. That's why most pinball collectors suggest to use Lithium AA batteries: you get 5-10 year lifetime, no danger of leakage.
Do you know why alkaline batteries leak, but lithium do not?
Yes - some quality batteries claim 25 years shelf life.
I was hoping to see a betavoltaic battery here.
About a year or so back, there was an issue about Airtags being used for stalking a person. Has that issue been resolved by Apple? Or does the issue still exist?
Any chance that the AirTag could have a software memory leak that would normally be masked by cutting power once a year? Its possible right? The code must be written in something low level like C.
Would be kinda funny if 10 years from now the author gets his stuff stolen again and then discovers said memory leak crashed the Airtag 9 years ago. As Elon Musk likes to say: "The most ironic outcome is the most likely" . (OP I hope your stuff does not get stolen again, its just a joke)
Would be kinda funny if 10 years from now the author gets his stuff stolen again and then discovers said memory leak crashed the Airtag 9 years ago. As Elon Musk likes to say: "The most ironic outcome is the most likely" . (OP I hope your stuff does not get stolen again, its just a joke)
Reasonably designed embedded device like that should be using a watchdog timer which automatically restarts it if code gets stuck (it's a basic hardware level feature available in almost all microcontrollers), and any crash should also cause a reboot.
Considering the nature of product there is no interactive interface, it doesn't perform any critical operation like motor or heater control which couldn't be easily interrupted and resumed a fraction of second later after the reboot. In case of memory leak or some kind of memory allocator error it would also be safe to reboot. User wouldn't even notice if this happened.
So even if something goes wrong, chance of it being uncrecoverable seems low. It would need to be either some kind of persistent storage bug causing it to get stuck in a bootloop (in which case battery change wouldn't help either), or high level logic error preventing normal functioning while keeping the main loop running without crash or getting stuck (writing code in higher level programming language wouldn't prevent a logic error).
Considering the nature of product there is no interactive interface, it doesn't perform any critical operation like motor or heater control which couldn't be easily interrupted and resumed a fraction of second later after the reboot. In case of memory leak or some kind of memory allocator error it would also be safe to reboot. User wouldn't even notice if this happened.
So even if something goes wrong, chance of it being uncrecoverable seems low. It would need to be either some kind of persistent storage bug causing it to get stuck in a bootloop (in which case battery change wouldn't help either), or high level logic error preventing normal functioning while keeping the main loop running without crash or getting stuck (writing code in higher level programming language wouldn't prevent a logic error).
That's a very good point. The system design of the airtags assumed a much shorter battery life, which may have led to decisions that would introduce issues at 10x battery life. Thinking more like overflow issues. But could also be a complete non-issue. Hard to say.
Given the resources on the device (it's a Nordic nRF52832 with 64 KB RAM), I'd expect any memory leaks or similar defects to show up well before a year.
AirTags get updates regularly, so they'd probably get power-cycled sooner than that.
They're not being updated any more frequently than they are already reporting their battery status, are they?
I would presume the battery status is sent as part of the beacon, firmware is updated only when the phone is locked and charging in range of the tag.
I believe that's correct. I get low battery notifications when I am out of range of mine, I think.
I would also imagine someone with a fleet of these would be pretty cheesed if Apple rolled out an update that drained some fair fraction of users' batteries, no matter how fast they fixed it.
I have a AirTag in my car so I can find it when I park in an unfamiliar city or an airport parking lot. I'm imagining a rechargeable version I could plug into the cigarette lighter and it would theoretically last as long as my car does.
When I get out of my car, my iPhone remembers that this was the last place it was connected to the car's Bluetooth. I don't have an special devices or tracker apps or anything else, just "Find My" automatically pinning my car's location on the map. That's such a neat and helpful feature!
I plan on getting one of these TimeCapsules (what a silly name) and modify it to be rechargeable.
I'm almost sure they are 3D printed on a nylon SLS machine, what a lovely example of high quality printing enabling relatively small scale, high number of SKU production!
This solves one of my biggest issues with AirTags and I'd be tempted to buy one if AirTag 2s weren't right around the corner...
Pretty much this, I hope they retain the form factor, I would very much buy 3-4 of these for my luggage, I previously duct-taped airtags inside of the case but they died within a year, this would help a lot.
Who leaves 10K worth of anything in their car?
I get antsy leaving my $200 laptop hidden under my seat! This person is crazy.
There is also no guarantee they person who stole the bag wouldn't dump the bag(with the hidden AirTag) and just keep the gear or that the police would help recover it even if you gave them the location(many times the don't).
There is also no guarantee they person who stole the bag wouldn't dump the bag(with the hidden AirTag) and just keep the gear or that the police would help recover it even if you gave them the location(many times the don't).
> Who leaves 10K worth of anything in their car?
People who live in a high-trust society and not a shithole? I leave $10k of stuff in my car all the time, and it would be super inconvenient if I couldn't.
People who live in a high-trust society and not a shithole? I leave $10k of stuff in my car all the time, and it would be super inconvenient if I couldn't.
No matter how trusting I am of society this is something I cannot and will not do. It takes one person to commit this crime.
It doesn't even have to be a "shit hole", then what? I am out of 10k? I only have myself to blame then really because I trusted "society".
The world isn't perfect and I am not half naive enough to think it is and put my trust in it for anything worth this much.
It doesn't even have to be a "shit hole", then what? I am out of 10k? I only have myself to blame then really because I trusted "society".
The world isn't perfect and I am not half naive enough to think it is and put my trust in it for anything worth this much.
In such places folks feel comfortable leaving $10k worth of gear in their vehicle, law enforcement would most likely follow up if you had the gear tracked to a known location. I've seen such happen with the items being recovered and the thieves arrested in a matter of hours from the theft happening.
In places where leaving $10k of gear in your car is considered foolish and the victims are blamed as many are used to these days, law enforcement is useless and the victim of the theft laughed at as being hopelessly naive.
It's the tale of two worlds really.
In places where leaving $10k of gear in your car is considered foolish and the victims are blamed as many are used to these days, law enforcement is useless and the victim of the theft laughed at as being hopelessly naive.
It's the tale of two worlds really.
The amount of things you leave in your car varies strong by local. In many parts of the country you can leave the car unlocked w/ laptop inside no problem.
It's not very risky to leave expensive items in the car, but in the trunk, not on the backseat! Also, never put these expensive items or really any kind of bag in the trunk after you park. Always do it before the ride. Or at least make very sure that no one is watching you.
This is a basic safety drill. And it doesn't apply to expensive things only. You don't want your window broken for a sport bag with a sweaty t-shirt used in a gym like it happened to my friend. Any kind of bag left visible in a car is a risk.
This is a basic safety drill. And it doesn't apply to expensive things only. You don't want your window broken for a sport bag with a sweaty t-shirt used in a gym like it happened to my friend. Any kind of bag left visible in a car is a risk.
I lost > $10K of photo gear from a locked car trunk on my first trip to Hawaii (Oahu).
I shot some pictures at a photo location, put the gear, in my camera backpack, into the trunk, drove 30 minutes to a completely different town, and stopped for lunch.
When I got back to the car, the stuff was gone. Thief had jimmied the driver's door and used the remote latch to open the trunk.
Surprisingly, my renter's insurance covered the loss without a hassle, except for a $500 deductible. But three days of pictures that I hadn't yet downloaded were gone forever :(
I shot some pictures at a photo location, put the gear, in my camera backpack, into the trunk, drove 30 minutes to a completely different town, and stopped for lunch.
When I got back to the car, the stuff was gone. Thief had jimmied the driver's door and used the remote latch to open the trunk.
Surprisingly, my renter's insurance covered the loss without a hassle, except for a $500 deductible. But three days of pictures that I hadn't yet downloaded were gone forever :(
> in the trunk, not on the backseat! Also, never put these expensive items or really any kind of bag in the trunk after you park... You don't want your window broken for a sport bag
A frustrating thing is that it's completely optional to live in a society where this is a problem. We know how to stop this from happening. There are places where you just don't have to live in fear of some low-life breaking your window, and we have the technical ability to replicate those conditions in any moderately-wealthy country, if we aren't prevented from doing so.
A frustrating thing is that it's completely optional to live in a society where this is a problem. We know how to stop this from happening. There are places where you just don't have to live in fear of some low-life breaking your window, and we have the technical ability to replicate those conditions in any moderately-wealthy country, if we aren't prevented from doing so.
Can you elaborate? I'm honestly at a loss as to what you're suggesting? Is it just that we should have extremely long jail sentences and/or executions for petty crimes, or is there some other option I'm missing?
Crime, as with most things, follows a power law distribution. Almost all crime is from extremely predictable repeat offenders. You could eliminate over 80% of crime just by enforcing a 3-strikes policy. https://inquisitivebird.xyz/p/when-few-do-great-harm
...except when you're still in the car, while driving in San Francisco.
Photographer had their camera bag stolen from their car while waiting to get on to an on-ramp in San Fran. see https://www.ktvu.com/news/real-estate-photographer-robbed-of...
Photographer had their camera bag stolen from their car while waiting to get on to an on-ramp in San Fran. see https://www.ktvu.com/news/real-estate-photographer-robbed-of...
Surely going to lunch with 10k of equipment is safer, especially when you'll need to go to the toilet.
It's a backpack. You hang it on the hook on the stall door where you hang your jacket
I think there is less of a likelihood someone is going to jump you for your backpack when you are at a restaurant for lunch than there is for them breaking into a car parked only a dimly lit street for said backpack.
I think there is less of a likelihood someone is going to jump you for your backpack when you are at a restaurant for lunch than there is for them breaking into a car parked only a dimly lit street for said backpack.
Except that American public toilets have gaps so large between the door and the frame that a thief can pretty much just grab the backpack without opening the door =)
I live in big City America. This is what I did. Hang my backpack on the stall hook as stated or shit with it on my lap. I carried a laptop, DSLR and lens with me for all my college life. I couldn't afford to replace anything if lost during said times as an international student whose credits cost more than 3 times that of a non-international student.
I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or not, but generally car break-ins are much more frequent than muggings. And bringing a bag of expensive equipment into the bathroom is almost certainly less risky than leaving it somewhere, whether in your car or elsewhere.
Paragliders, though with the small community their resale value is pretty low so I'm not sure it's "$10k worth", even if that's what it cost.
“How dare that woman wear that sexy dress! She was just asking to be raped!”
You are a terrible person.
You are a terrible person.
Usually, cars are worth more than 10K and they are often left out in the street!
Cars are impractical to carry by hand, while a lot of expensive computer / photo / audio gear can easily be carried in a tote bag.
Yeah but someone can't pick up my car and walk away with it on their back, can they now, genius?
hulk has entered the chat
This is cool, but i can see simple improvement. You're supposed to discard airtag backplate, but the capsule is big enough to provide compartment for storing it. Just in case that you decide to re-use that airtag in some other way in upcomming 10 years... I think that would be neat addition.
Cool idea. I actually just recently changed my air tag battery for the first time. The FindMy app notified me when the battery was at 30%.
Personally I'm able to risk the battery dying since the tag is on an inexpensive item I lose frequently, but I understand the annoyance of replacing the battery often.
Personally I'm able to risk the battery dying since the tag is on an inexpensive item I lose frequently, but I understand the annoyance of replacing the battery often.
I have once used a airtag to track a parcel.
This is now 3 years ago and despite several low batt warnings since about a year ago its still running.
So even wit the tiny cell battery the runtime can be quite long.
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I don't see how this huge tracker would help with the stolen camera gear. At least an airtag is small enough, you can probably glue it to the bottom of the camera, paint it black.
It is huge compared to an AirTag, but as somebody who doesn’t know much about cameras, if I stole a photographer’s stuff and something like that was in there, I’d probably not think too much about it. It is a black rectangle. Professionals have countless black rectangles that I don’t understand.
If they wanted to be really clever, they could easily find space to disguise it as a usb hard drive or something (I mean they could literally stick a USB hard drive in the thing, they are so tiny nowadays).
If they wanted to be really clever, they could easily find space to disguise it as a usb hard drive or something (I mean they could literally stick a USB hard drive in the thing, they are so tiny nowadays).
I wonder if the signal strength is worse or not now that the AirTag is enclosed in another case? I have my AirTag in the car hidden, which already seems to reduce the strength.
Cool idea for a product but you either have to be a serious airhead or just lazy to miss or ignore all the low battery notifications. Also, that case should have a spot to store the back plate.
> Just discard the AirTag's back plate
> Just discard the AirTag's back plate
But these don’t exist in a vacuum. Replacing one battery a year is not a big deal. But I’m also replacing the 8-10 door sensor batteries yearly, 3 water leak sensors, etc. In a set it and forget it product that you may not use for weeks or months at a time, but also really need to work the one time you do need it, increasing the lifespan by an order of magnitude can have real value.
I have frequently had the batteries run out on mine and I can't recall ever getting a proactive notification about it. However, "airhead" would potentially be an accurate term to describe me when it comes to how I usually handle such notifications, so maybe that's the problem!
its not about missing the notifications, its about not needing to worry about it.
But when you have 4 -- and I bet people have more -- it does get a bit boring having to switch them out. It's no longer an annual event, it's now quarterly.
I mean, first-world problem. But if it could be less frequent, of course I'd take it.
I mean, first-world problem. But if it could be less frequent, of course I'd take it.
I have about 8. They used to run low at the same-ish time frame, but over time they drift apart due to frequency of moving around. (e.g.: the AirTag in my luggage runs out months after the one in my wallet)
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It's a cool hack, but a terrible idea for a product. There are more components than the battery that will fail over a 10 year period (both in hardware and in software) - which is why ignoring notifications, and assuming that this product solves your problem is a big issue.
I've got a 10 year old Bluetooth headset that works fine with a 2024 iPhone so why would something even simpler so obviously not?
This seems incredibly pessimistic to me. Do you really not expect things to last for over ten years?
In my experience most electronic things - and especially things that are simple and solid with no wear and tear like an AirTag - easily last 10 years. I’d expect an AirTag to work for, at least, decades.
In my experience most electronic things - and especially things that are simple and solid with no wear and tear like an AirTag - easily last 10 years. I’d expect an AirTag to work for, at least, decades.
My amplifier and speakers date from the 70s.
Do they run a proprietary Apple software, and have NFC and UWB inside them?
When the software is fixed we're back to thinking of the object as a single piece of hardware. My Gamecube and Xbox 360 have been working for (nearly) 20 years now.
Unless there's a known failure mode in these devices that gets worn down over time you should probably expect them to outlive you. The worst you'll probably get is corrosion from the AA batteries in the pack.
Unless there's a known failure mode in these devices that gets worn down over time you should probably expect them to outlive you. The worst you'll probably get is corrosion from the AA batteries in the pack.
The software isn't fixed.
This guy replaces his garage door opener every 2 years...
Your smoke alarm has a ten year battery.
Something like air tags would be a great use case for an open source DePin project. Ideally Zero Knowledge proofs would be used to preserve privacy.
Replacing batteries is a pretty big annoyance for me. But if I’m honest, the $19.99+Li Cell Cost is too steep for me. I’ll just replace these every year.
Get all perils insurance and make sure your typical use is covered. Often, commercial use will not be covered so it's important to double-check!
Insurance requires making constant regular payments to a third party for life. I self-insure most things.
Also, have you ever made an insurance claim? I have. A claim is really bad for your insurance rates with most insurance companies.
Also, have you ever made an insurance claim? I have. A claim is really bad for your insurance rates with most insurance companies.
> we recommend Energizer Ultimate Lithium
The advantage of "lithium" is high rate discharge, not longevity right?
The advantage of "lithium" is high rate discharge, not longevity right?
They don't leak would be why I would choose these over an alkaline battery. The draw of an airtag is so low that the shelf life becomes very material.
I also put lithium AA/AAA batteries in remotes these days - anything that might get stuck in a drawer for years at a time and needed again for a random task. My A/V receiver remote is rarely touched, but when I need it I really need it. Too many times have I went to grab some device like that only to find the batteries have leaked and corroded a critical component on the PCB.
I also put lithium AA/AAA batteries in remotes these days - anything that might get stuck in a drawer for years at a time and needed again for a random task. My A/V receiver remote is rarely touched, but when I need it I really need it. Too many times have I went to grab some device like that only to find the batteries have leaked and corroded a critical component on the PCB.
Those are the same batteries that come with Nest smoke alarms, which say they last 10 years. Energizer says they'll last 20 years in storage. https://energizer.com/batteries/energizer-ultimate-lithium-b...
Yep. That recommendation is weird. They should recommend NiMH batteries like the Eneloop series from Panasonic.
I think in this case it’s shelf life. Very little discharge for a very long time.
Doing some math, looks like a CR2032 is roughly 200mah while AA is 2000mah. So if CR2032 lasts one year, then the AA will be 10 years, two AA would be 20 years. I guess in that case lithium would be the way to go.
I just know for your typical wall clock that takes a single AA, whether it is lithium or alkaline, both won't make it much further than a year.
I just know for your typical wall clock that takes a single AA, whether it is lithium or alkaline, both won't make it much further than a year.
These have 3500mAh capacity: https://data.energizer.com/pdfs/l91.pdf
Does anyone know what camera bag that is on that website. Peak design? Looks perfect for my usual load out.
Looks like any number of generic camera bags.
Camera bag design seems to have moved on from that, and a sling design seems to be more popular.
The sling lets you swing the bag from your back under your arm to in front of you. There is a zipper towards the side that lets you securely access the camera and accessories.
So pretty easily you can get your camera out, or later put it back without removing the backpack.
Camera bag design seems to have moved on from that, and a sling design seems to be more popular.
The sling lets you swing the bag from your back under your arm to in front of you. There is a zipper towards the side that lets you securely access the camera and accessories.
So pretty easily you can get your camera out, or later put it back without removing the backpack.
That’s fair. And thanks for the thoughtful reply! I was thinking more for travel / safe storage. I’m often flying on small planes and to throw it in my duffle.
My solution is I have a PD 30L as with dslr, 200-400, macro, 24-74 lens two straps are nice to have purely due to weight vs sling. The side access is clutch.
My solution is I have a PD 30L as with dslr, 200-400, macro, 24-74 lens two straps are nice to have purely due to weight vs sling. The side access is clutch.
I'm pretty sure it is the DSLR Pro Pack by Incase.
https://www.incase.com/products/dslr-pro-pack?srsltid=AfmBOo...
https://www.incase.com/products/dslr-pro-pack?srsltid=AfmBOo...
It's a good design, IME. Lowepro makes a variety of similar ones. (I had a one similar to the photo, fitting 2 bodies, wide L, long L, f/1.4 prime, strobes and triggers, and boxes of strobe batteries.)
Lowepro also has day/overnight/carryon backpacks, so you can carry some DSLR gear, laptop, change of clothes, and toiletries, all in one bag.
I still have one LowePro day backpack that I repurposed as engineer/startup briefcase. It fits a huge laptop and misc. stuff for working late hours, and has a DSLR door in the side, so you can slide one shoulder strap off off long enough swing it forward like a sling bag, for quick access to a good camera for serendipitous shots.
Regarding real sling bags, I personally wouldn't use for lengthy carrying of heavy stuff, since it's asymmetric left/right. I even got rid of my grocery canvas tote bags, and use an old backpack for carrying home groceries.
Lowepro also has day/overnight/carryon backpacks, so you can carry some DSLR gear, laptop, change of clothes, and toiletries, all in one bag.
I still have one LowePro day backpack that I repurposed as engineer/startup briefcase. It fits a huge laptop and misc. stuff for working late hours, and has a DSLR door in the side, so you can slide one shoulder strap off off long enough swing it forward like a sling bag, for quick access to a good camera for serendipitous shots.
Regarding real sling bags, I personally wouldn't use for lengthy carrying of heavy stuff, since it's asymmetric left/right. I even got rid of my grocery canvas tote bags, and use an old backpack for carrying home groceries.
I think this is a sleeper ad for the new AirTag, and that it will have a ten year battery life.
I'm genuinely surprised that Apple product has a replaceable battery at all.
Do you mean “user-replaceable”? You can get new batteries for most Apple products (I think). Exception is AirPods (Pro).
I just watched a video with the battery replacement in Macbook Air. There is no way the laptop will switch on after I do it by myself for the first time.
Maybe just set a reminder in your phone annually to replace all AirTag batteries
If the battery can work so long, I'd love to use it for my quartz watch!!
It is not a new cell battery, is an enclosure with 2 AA lithium batteries that replaces the standard CR2032.
this is a great idea and I'd love to see v2 with a 20 year flat-pack cell with usb-c charging. It would be 40% smaller and you could call it "lifetime charge"
Incredibly cool and stupid simple. Just purchased 10 of them!
Don’t AA batteries leak long before 10 years?
there you go. It's useful, but you can find cheaper alternatives easily on chinese websites.
The last line could be a real link :)
double the battery & double the size would be the sweet spot for me.
this is a bit big and heavy.
this is a bit big and heavy.
Good god. Do you see how good things happen when you let people change their fucking batteries?
This addresses the main reason why I haven't bought an AirTag yet.
how long do batteries in watches last for?
AirLuggages!
[deleted]
the battery will erode on the contact springs way before 10 years tho. just sayin. Sorry to hear about your stolen gear
Titan2189(3)
what a joke.
Why can't the AirTag simply report its battery status and warn the user e.g. through a nearby iPhone?
This is another case of bad UX by a company praised for its great "product design skills".
This is another case of bad UX by a company praised for its great "product design skills".
> Why can't the AirTag simply report its battery status and warn the user e.g. through a nearby iPhone?
This is precisely how an AirTag works. It reports its battery status[1] via a notification to the user on an iPhone.
[1]: https://support.apple.com/en-us/102600
This is precisely how an AirTag works. It reports its battery status[1] via a notification to the user on an iPhone.
[1]: https://support.apple.com/en-us/102600
It does do that already. The author likely ignored the notifications repeatedly until it died.
it does
This solution makes the AirTag bigger. Might be okay for a photo bag, it's quite cumbersome for car keys and dogs. Besides, your phone will warn you when the battery is getting low. I always keep a couple of 2032 batteries on hand and soon as I get the low battery warning I just pop a new one in.
>Might be okay for a photo bag
Yes that's what its for
Yes that's what its for
They talked about this in the article. It is for bigger items like RVs and camera bags that you also don't interact a lot on a daily basis.
Brilliant, I just ordered a couple. But I bet that case muffles the sound when the AirTag decides to sing you the song of its people. This might be a boon to AirTag stalkers who are too lazy or unskilled to disable the sound and upgrade the battery life.
> This might be a boon to AirTag stalkers who are too lazy or unskilled to disable the sound and upgrade the battery life.
What a nonsensical fear to have.
What a nonsensical fear to have.
Why is that nonsensical? Airtags are very nice little bits of technology, a marvel really. But examples of abuse are not theoretical. Increasing the battery life by years and placing the airtag in a waterproof case are totally valid things a legitimate user might wish to do, but it also enhances their nefarious or unethical use potential. That is not nonsense.
that's not the part that seems nonsensical. it's the idea that a stalker wouldn't just pull out the speaker.
Or for the comment's theoretical "too lazy or unskilled to disable the sound" stalker, wrap the airtag in a sock and stick it in a tupperware container.
"Put the airtag in a box" is not really an exclusive invention here.
"Put the airtag in a box" is not really an exclusive invention here.
Most criminals are dumb. Anything that makes their job easier can increase the crime rate/efficiency of their criminal activities. I'm pretty sure stalking with devices increased after the Airtag was released.
Even android will notify you if you are walking around with an airtag in your pocket.
Exactly, the "concern" is nonsense.
> My camera bag with $10k of gear was stolen from my car. When I saw the broken glass and empty backseat, I immediately pulled up FindMy to track the thief ...
Aha, but that's not what AirTags are for, according to Apple at least.
On https://www.apple.com/airtag Not a single mention of "theft" or "stolen".
It will even politely inform the thief you have a tracker in your stuff:
> AirTag is designed to discourage unwanted tracking. If someone else’s AirTag finds its way into your stuff, the network will notice it’s traveling with you and send your iPhone an alert
I wouldn't be surprised if Apple will come down on them with their legal team for promoting usage of the AirTag that's not according to their intended use.
Aha, but that's not what AirTags are for, according to Apple at least.
On https://www.apple.com/airtag Not a single mention of "theft" or "stolen".
It will even politely inform the thief you have a tracker in your stuff:
> AirTag is designed to discourage unwanted tracking. If someone else’s AirTag finds its way into your stuff, the network will notice it’s traveling with you and send your iPhone an alert
I wouldn't be surprised if Apple will come down on them with their legal team for promoting usage of the AirTag that's not according to their intended use.
Just as a thought experiment, what do you think would happen if Apple specifically advertised them as theft prevention tools?
Presumably people would start complaining that they're really bad at that, since they loudly make themselves known to any thief.
> what do you think would happen if Apple specifically advertised them as theft prevention tools?
I don't know, I am not Apple, and I don't even have AirTags. What do you think would happen, it seems you already have an idea?
I don't know, I am not Apple, and I don't even have AirTags. What do you think would happen, it seems you already have an idea?
That is not how batteries work. Batteries drain even under minimal usage.
My bet is that in 2/3 years this device will stop working already.
Just change the batteries if you AirTag once a year. Especially if you are using an AirTag to keep watch over 10.000 dollar equipment.
My bet is that in 2/3 years this device will stop working already.
Just change the batteries if you AirTag once a year. Especially if you are using an AirTag to keep watch over 10.000 dollar equipment.
Here [0] is the datasheet for the batteries used. 25 year shelf life is spec'd.
I have personally run these cells buried underground, and gotten 4.5 years out of 4 of them, though my application is just for fun and likely not as power conservative as an AirTag.
[0] https://data.energizer.com/pdfs/l91.pdf
I have personally run these cells buried underground, and gotten 4.5 years out of 4 of them, though my application is just for fun and likely not as power conservative as an AirTag.
[0] https://data.energizer.com/pdfs/l91.pdf
Okay, now I'm really curious what application you have for a device buried underground.
Ooh what's the application underground?
So I attend this local annual event that has a time capsule. Each year, we bury one and dig up the one from 5 years ago. This has gone on for several decades, and people are always thinking of interesting things to put in there.
I made a little electronics project that is somewhere between "what happens inside a time capsule while it's buried?" and "what if you could wind a watch once and have it still be ticking in 5 years?"
I nearly forgot that I made a project page for it: https://hackaday.io/project/160740-low-power-environment-mon...
I dug up the first one last year and it had made it to 4.5 years, and I'm actually due to dig up the second one next week.
I made a little electronics project that is somewhere between "what happens inside a time capsule while it's buried?" and "what if you could wind a watch once and have it still be ticking in 5 years?"
I nearly forgot that I made a project page for it: https://hackaday.io/project/160740-low-power-environment-mon...
I dug up the first one last year and it had made it to 4.5 years, and I'm actually due to dig up the second one next week.
Lithium batteries (like the 1.5V energizer suggested) have extremely low self discharge. The reason why lithium batteries are used for long life is because you can actually reliably count on them to not self discharge after 20 years. As long as the mAh is 10x the coin cells they use, I’d totally believe the 10 year statement.
Lots of smoke alarms now have 10 year batteries.
Now mandated in California.
No more waking up in the middle of the night and crawling up a ladder to find out which of your smoke alarms decided it was too cold and decided to sing its low battery chirp.
No more waking up in the middle of the night and crawling up a ladder to find out which of your smoke alarms decided it was too cold and decided to sing its low battery chirp.
Does that fix it or make it worse? If you have 10 smoke detectors and they end up randomly staggered so this happens once a year, and you can't replace the batteries anymore... that seems worse than the old system which completely eliminated this issue if you just replaced them all every year or two on a schedule.
Remember that you are supposed to replace the entire thing because the other components like the sensor or simply capacitors also age. It is a very cheap safety device and simply not worth taking any risks by stretching it to say 15 years instead. The proper way would be to replace them while they were all still fine by making a note in the calendar.
There are two cases:
Your products are faulty and at least one has not made their intended 10 year lifespan. I'd change them all for better ones.
Or
They have reached their lifespan and you only noticed because the first one failed. I'd replace them all.
There are two cases:
Your products are faulty and at least one has not made their intended 10 year lifespan. I'd change them all for better ones.
Or
They have reached their lifespan and you only noticed because the first one failed. I'd replace them all.
Fair point, although with a 400+ year half life in the americium source in the detector, I am skeptical that a new smoke detector would be any more reliable than a very old one.
I would think testing them regularly - especially with simulated smoke as done in professional situations, or in my case via bad cooking, is probably more effective than regular replacement on a schedule to ensure they are always working.
If dealing with something that follows a Poisson failure probability distribution with a fixed percentage probability of failure per year (as is the case with most electrical components), regular replacement only makes the system more reliable if you are unable to test it, otherwise it makes no difference.
With a few rare exceptions, is largely a myth that replacing machines or technology at regular intervals increases reliability- people incorrectly assume this to be true, based on observing that most failures happen to things that are old, but this is merely because they spend more time being old, not because the rate of failure per time increases with age (it almost never does). Testing and redundancy are more effective and cheaper.
Now, everything I am saying would be wrong if smoke detectors indeed have components besides the alpha source whose failure rates are known to increase with age, and actually age out within a decade or so. Like you mentioned, this can be the case with electrolytic capacitors as well as non solid state relays. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the lifespan of capacitors at the low temp and low voltages in a smoke detector wasn't 50+ years.
I would think testing them regularly - especially with simulated smoke as done in professional situations, or in my case via bad cooking, is probably more effective than regular replacement on a schedule to ensure they are always working.
If dealing with something that follows a Poisson failure probability distribution with a fixed percentage probability of failure per year (as is the case with most electrical components), regular replacement only makes the system more reliable if you are unable to test it, otherwise it makes no difference.
With a few rare exceptions, is largely a myth that replacing machines or technology at regular intervals increases reliability- people incorrectly assume this to be true, based on observing that most failures happen to things that are old, but this is merely because they spend more time being old, not because the rate of failure per time increases with age (it almost never does). Testing and redundancy are more effective and cheaper.
Now, everything I am saying would be wrong if smoke detectors indeed have components besides the alpha source whose failure rates are known to increase with age, and actually age out within a decade or so. Like you mentioned, this can be the case with electrolytic capacitors as well as non solid state relays. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the lifespan of capacitors at the low temp and low voltages in a smoke detector wasn't 50+ years.
Also in New York. Personally I'm all for this even though I think it does make detectors a bit more expensive. Not only because it avoids the need to change batteries, but because it's more likely that smoke detectors actually get replaced at their end of life.
Why didn't they replace the battery when the app complained?
How long would a thief really keep the AirTag anyway?
If the thief did keep the AirTag and you tracked them down, then what? A confrontation has a fairly high chance to have a worse result than losing some equipment. You could try to get the police to do it, but that's going to take more time, during which the thief is even more likely to ditch the AirTag.
Anyway, you're really swimming upstream trying to think of aigtags as an antitheft device. They're really for something lost, not stolen. Generally, they are specifically designed to not work well in adversarial situations.